It’s the spending! Romney muddles the message on non-taxpayers
Politicians are not always good at the “telephone” game. Witness Mitt Romney.
“Telephone,” as you may remember from your childhood, is the game in which one person whispers a phrase to another person, who whispers it to another, and so on, until the last person in line. When the message reaches the final set of ears, it’s usually been misspoken so many times as to be unrecognizable to the original speaker.
That game came to mind this week when a video surfaced, depicting Romney speaking at a May 17 fund-raiser in Boca Raton, Fla. Romney is recorded saying, in part:
There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that’s an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what …
And I mean the president starts off with 48, 49 — he starts off with a huge number. These are people who pay no income tax. Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax.
All this was by way of explaining why he would not even attempt to sell these Americans on his message of low taxes against Obama’s plan to soak the rich.
After this revelation, liberals declared Romney’s candidacy dead (don’t worry; the man trailing Barack Obama by less than 3 percentage points on average has been similarly pronounced “dead” many times before). Conservatives, meanwhile, argued about whether Romney’s words would hurt his chances because they were, by his own admission, “not elegantly stated” — or whether Romney was telling a hard truth about government dependence that voters would receive well.
As much as I’d like to believe the latter group is correct, and as much as there is a fundamental truth here about the size, scope and role of government that distinguishes Romney from Obama in this race, I have to point out a problem. The “telephone” problem.
Set aside Romney’s incorrect conflation of: a) people who pay no federal income taxes, b) people who are dependent on government, and c) people who support Obama. There is some overlap among these groups, but they hardly represent a monolithic bloc totaling 47 percent of of the electorate.
The “47 percent” statistic itself is well-circulated among conservatives, but for a very different reason.
As far as I know — and I wasn’t the first person in this game of “telephone” — that statistic began as a counter-argument to the liberal claim that “the rich” don’t pay their fair share of taxes.
In recent years, the top 1 percent of earners in America have paid more than a third of all income taxes. The top 5 percent, about three-fifths.
The bottom 50 percent bear almost none of the income-tax burden (if they have jobs, they do contribute payroll taxes) because most of them pay nothing or are even net recipients.
So, the point of this “47 percent” statistic is to refute the “fair share” claim. After all, if 47 percent pay nothing and the top 5 percent pay a majority, how can we say “the rich” aren’t paying a “fair share”?
But this is not necessarily an argument for raising taxes on the 47 percent. In fact, conservative policy created much of the 47 percent.
The child tax credit is a social-conservative initiative. The refundable Earned Income Tax Credit is largely based on the “negative income tax” proposed almost 50 years ago by conservative economist Milton Friedman.
In theory, these tax credits ought to be a way to make government smaller and lower-income workers less dependent on it, by eliminating the need for Washington to spend billions on redundant, bureaucratic (but I repeat myself) programs that have not appreciably cut the poverty rate over time.
It hasn’t worked out that way, because those programs remain. But let’s not forget the real issue here for this election, and what probably was part of that first “telephone” whisper about the size and scope of government:
It’s the spending, stupid.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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307 comments Add your comment
They BOTH suck
September 20th, 2012
11:14 am
budgets
MarkV
September 20th, 2012
11:15 am
td @10:55 am: “How much money should it take for the government to give the services you all expect from them? In other words how much of the total wealth produced each year in this country go to the government?”20%?, 25%, 50%? Please give us a number.”
This question comes from a person, who complains that I do not express my “opinions.” And he asks a questionfor an opinion, which is a first class, total inanity.
If anybody, Democrat or Republican, wanted to take td’s challenge and put down a number, all I would respond with would be a simple question: WHY?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
11:15 am
“Ryan and Obama both putting up bugets that they both knew were not going anywhere, was nothing less than a dog and pony show. ”
Big difference, TBS: Ryan’s budget passed an actual legislative body. Obama’s didn’t pass either one.
td
September 20th, 2012
11:15 am
Just Saying..
September 20th, 2012
11:02 am
td:
The consensus seems to be that Obama put entitlements on the table, Pelosi & Reid had conniptions but went along, but the House Speaker couldn’t get his side to agree.
And the debates told us $10 in tax cuts (for the 47%?) couldn’t get $1 in tax increases (for the 47%?) with any Republican candidate.
So to me, I’m not guessing. I’m listening.
Yes and since you are listening did you hear Bob Woodruff talk about how Obama blew up the whole deal?
Just Saying..
September 20th, 2012
11:18 am
Tib: I use the word “consensus” advisedly.
Do you know more, or the same, as the general electorate?
What % of the electorate will read Woodward’s book, or be informed by it’s revelations?
Do you feel you can inform the electorate by posting every 5 minutes on Kyle’s AJC blog?
“consensus” is the right word.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
September 20th, 2012
11:18 am
Internet companies including Facebook, Amazon, eBay and Google are joining forces to exercise their collective might in Washington. On Wednesday the companies officially launched a new lobbying group with the uninventive title the Internet Association, to “tackle regulatory and political issues in Washington, D.C,” reports Reuters.
It’s Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos’ world. We just live in it.
md
September 20th, 2012
11:19 am
” Is purchasing unneeded military aircraft from Lockheed in Marietta spending or buying. Depends on your perspective. Is providing assistance to struggling families in America spending or buying? ”
Considering we choose everything we do, one would be wise to also apply that “spend or buy” scenario to those struggling families” as they are not all the same. Are we responsible for your everyday street thug that has no desire or motivation to better himself?? Spend or buy?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
September 20th, 2012
11:20 am
I thought Woodward was a traitor?
If he is not then I guess Julian Assange should not be considered one either.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
11:21 am
“This question comes from a person, who complains that I do not express my “opinions.”
Because going though your blogging life pointing out someone’s alleged grammar mistakes is simply wonkish and a waste of everyone’s time.
They BOTH suck
September 20th, 2012
11:22 am
Tiberius
They were going to DIE and they both knew it from the start. And of course their is a difference, they originate in different places.
Ryan knew his would be dead once it hit the Senate, yet he wanted the PR for saying it passed the House even though he knew its fate.
Obama knew his budget wasn’t going anywhere, but he wanted the PR to say the Repubs didn’t work with him
It is crap and they both play it.
If it makes you feel better about yourself that Ryan’s budget passed the House, so be it. Rock on
JDW
September 20th, 2012
11:23 am
@Kyle…”It’s the spending, stupid.”
And yet in spite of all those revenue enhancing tax cuts for the upper incomes collections remain near historic lows…it’s really the politics! Because anyone with half a brain knows its spending and collections.
@@
September 20th, 2012
11:23 am
A fair assessment, Kyle.
Both dem voters and rep voters take advantage of those credits.
If my husband’s any indication of why…it’s because he thinks the feds are wasteful spenders and he oughta be compensated for supporting that waste…a rebate if you will. A defeatist attitude if’n you ask me.
How many households buy on credit in the hope that their tax refund will help pay it off? Too many! Very similar to how our government operates.
I’m for eliminating payroll/income tax altogether. I’d rather see a national sales tax in lieu of the convoluted mess we now have.
My husband and I are in total disagreement on the national sales. Had he known 25 years ago, that the country would end up where it is today, he’d have been on board. “Now”, he argues “is not convenient.”
Were we to accept a national sales tax, two things must precede acceptance. 1) Repeal of the 16th Amendment so Congress can’t hit us with both an income and sales tax. 2) a constitutional amendment fixing the national sales tax at a certain percentage that can only be increased by a three-fourths vote of the House of Representatives.
Speaking of loopholes, emergency spending bills are among the feds’ favorites. Offsets need to be applied.
If I can’t have ^^^ that, I’ll go with Ryan’s 10/25…no credits…no subsidies and work “backwards” to a time when government functioned as it was intended to instead of today, where Americans have blindly accepted their role of attending to the government.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
11:24 am
“What % of the electorate will read Woodward’s book, or be informed by it’s revelations?”
Whether they have or not does not detract from the reported accuracy of the book, Just Saying.
That your “consensus” flies in the face of recent reporting, does.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
11:26 am
“I thought Woodward was a traitor?”
Not in my mind. Never was, in fact. Your point?
“If he is not then I guess Julian Assange should not be considered one either.”
I was unaware that prepuce was an American citizen, Finn. Do you have any knowledge otherwise?
They BOTH suck
September 20th, 2012
11:27 am
Tiberius
I haven’t read the book or any reviews, so I can’t speak to it at all.
Who is reporting on its accuracy?
Just Saying..
September 20th, 2012
11:29 am
“That your “consensus” flies in the face of recent reporting, does.”
Tib: the more you insist the electorate knows as much as you do, the more we’re inclined to believe it…
Junior
September 20th, 2012
11:29 am
So, we had a surplus a while back.
Then we gave it all away though tax cuts and a couple skirmishes.
And the only option is to cut spending?
And not let the tax cuts expire?
That’s the problem with short term memory.
md
September 20th, 2012
11:30 am
“The consensus seems to be that Obama put entitlements on the table, Pelosi & Reid had conniptions but went along, but the House Speaker couldn’t get his side to agree.”
Not sure where that came from, but it wasn’t from reality:
“Pelosi made her position clear: “no benefit cuts in Medicare or Social Security” and emphasized that she has made that position known with “full clarity” to the Obama White House.”
And, according to Woodward the deal was done when Boehner agreed to it……..THEN obama wanted to change it because some no name adviser hinted it might make obama look weak……
So instead of chancing looking weak, he kills the whole deal……..yep, that makes sense.
They BOTH suck
September 20th, 2012
11:31 am
Finn
If Julian Assange has paid people to hack into or illegally access US government databases, he may not be a traitor because he isn’t a citizen, but he is scum.
Not here defending all of the actions of the US government, but what that guy is no one to hold up as any hero or anything close to it.
Of course since he is seeking asylum in efforts to avoid questioning, we may not ever know what he did exactly.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
11:34 am
“Who is reporting on its accuracy?”
Woodward has a pretty impressive track record, TBS, wouldn’t you say?
md
September 20th, 2012
11:34 am
“Because anyone with half a brain knows its spending and collections.”
Not to be snarky but you left yourself bare on this one……..for those with a full brain they would know that there would be no need for collections without the spending……….cause and effect.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
September 20th, 2012
11:36 am
Why Tiberius, here is an example from just yesterday of someone with a defeatist mentality. What we have isn’t working so let’s not try anything new. From the Washingotn Post.
The corps, loosely based on the Civilian Conservation Corps created during the Great Depression, would employ veterans in conservation, resource management and historic preservation projects on public lands. The legislation would also provide for hiring veterans as police officers and firefighters.
Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) said GOP concerns were about the $1 billion price tag for the program over five years. Republicans described the proposal as a political ploy of no practical value. “If, in fact, we want to help veterans get jobs, there are lots of ways to do it,” Coburn said on the floor before the vote. “We need to make sure the job training programs we have are working, and they’re not.”
md
September 20th, 2012
11:37 am
“And not let the tax cuts expire?”
And that is where politics come into play………NEITHER party wants that to happen. But one side does use this divisive gimmick about letting them expire for certain segments of society even though they know the resulting monetary outcome will not fix the problem…….but it sounds darn good on the stump.
JDW
September 20th, 2012
11:39 am
@Kyle…”don’t worry; the man trailing Barack Obama by less than 3 percentage points on average has been similarly pronounced “dead” many times before”
3 points are irrelevant…here is Romney’s real problem
270 EV’s to get elected
247 EV’s in the President’s column today
8 toss up states…100 EV’s
Obama needs 23 EV’s while Romney needs 89
Ohio 48.6 to 43.8 Obama +4.8 18 EV’s
Virginia 50.2 to 45.5 Obama +4.7 13 EV’s
For those keeping score game over right here, but for grins and giggles the rest of the tossups…
Florida 48.1 to 46.0 Obama +2.1
New Hampshire 47.3 to 45.0 Obama +2.3
Iowa 45.0 to 44.8 Obama +0.2
Colorado 47.3 to 46.0 Obama +1.3
Nevada 49.0 to 45.7 Obama +3.3
North Carolina 45.0 to 49.8 Romney +4.8
Could Romney make a stirring come back and turn maybe 70% of the tossups away from Obama and to himself…unlikely but maybe…problem is that is not enough. He still loses.
BTW have you seen the latest Senate projection…52 Dem 48 Repub. Now is the time for Republicans to let go of the Party of No mantra and start thinking about how they are going to work with the newly re-elected President to move real solutions forward.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/2012_elections_electoral_college_map.html
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
11:40 am
“the more you insist the electorate knows as much as you do,”
And yet, I have never done so, Just Saying.
Go figure.
JamVet
September 20th, 2012
11:41 am
After all, if 47 percent pay nothing and the top 5 percent pay a majority, how can we say “the rich” aren’t paying a “fair share”?
OMG.
In the period from 1983 to 2009 The top 5% of the richest Americans accrued 81.7% of all of the wealth gained in America. (!!!)
Did their share of the bill go up 81.7%?
Of course not.
With our perverse tax code (written by very rich people), human labor – not wealth – is heavily taxed in this nation.
And as for the servile working class tools who think this is the proper and natural evolution of capitalism, let them eat cake…
They BOTH suck
September 20th, 2012
11:41 am
Tiberius
From what I have read about Woodward, I would say he is known to be fairly accurate and consistent, unlike some of the blabbermouths on both sides who write fiction stories about any given President.
But you mentioned the reported accuracy, that is what I was asking.
In my opinion, these type books range from mole hills made into mountains (hyperbole and rhetoric, which I think they all to some degree for impact), the truth to outright lies or some combination.
To be honest, I tend to stay away from them regardless of who is the author or the President. I am sure I miss out on some good tid bits of knowledge, but I am also confident that I miss a bunch of crap as well.
Really got to run. Have a meeting at 1:00 in Duluth. I live downtown and need to crap a bite to eat.
later.
JDW
September 20th, 2012
11:42 am
@md…”for those with a full brain they would know that there would be no need for collections without the spending……….cause and effect.”
Not really. Those with a full brain know that government is not going away so there will be spending.
md
September 20th, 2012
11:43 am
“Of course since he is seeking asylum in efforts to avoid questioning, we may not ever know what he did exactly.”
I have faith in the Brits…….asylum has already been granted, but he either lives the rest of his life in their embassy or he tries to leave the country…….and the Brits are ticked to the point they will not let him slip out. I think it’s a matter of pride at this point………..
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
11:43 am
“Why Tiberius, here is an example from just yesterday of someone with a defeatist mentality. What we have isn’t working so let’s not try anything new.”
Spending money we don’t have on temporary jobs that don’t fix the economy is something new, Finn?
Missed the whole Stimulus !, Stimulus II, Little Stimulus III and Cash for Clunkers, didn’t ya?
They BOTH suck
September 20th, 2012
11:44 am
grap
later I will crap
hahahaha
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
September 20th, 2012
11:45 am
HERe’s a war I can get behind:
The Coming War Within the Republican Party
salon.com
mwuahahahahahahahahaha
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
11:46 am
“For those keeping score game over right here”
And yet, not a single vote has been cast, JDW.
What are this week’s MegaMillions numbers again?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
September 20th, 2012
11:47 am
err, that was actually slate.com, not salon.com
md
September 20th, 2012
11:48 am
“In the period from 1983 to 2009 The top 5% of the richest Americans accrued 81.7% of all of the wealth gained in America. (!!!)”
OMG…..you still operating on that closed economic snapshot theory?
In a global economy (like it or not that is now the reality), that snapshot means absolutely nothing………..how much income left our shores? How much came back?
For someone that uses terms like “simplistic tripe”, one should understand that simple way of looking at income/assets in the US is just that….tripe.
md
September 20th, 2012
11:50 am
“Not really. Those with a full brain know that government is not going away so there will be spending.”
Yes, but the amount of the spending is the question……..and then those collections are still based on that. We wouldn’t need to collect more if we spend within our means……..
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
11:55 am
“err, that was actually slate.com, not salon.com”
As if that mattered.
Crap is still crap, no matter the source.
Just Saying..
September 20th, 2012
11:58 am
““Pelosi made her position clear: “no benefit cuts in Medicare or Social Security” and emphasized that she has made that position known with “full clarity” to the Obama White House.”
And, according to Woodward the deal was done when Boehner agreed to it……..THEN obama wanted to change it because some no name adviser hinted it might make obama look weak……”
No doubt 99% (No, wait, Mitt’s for the 100% today!) of voters can recite that perfectly.
Have you ever seen “Jay Walking”?
JamVet
September 20th, 2012
11:59 am
how much income left our shores? How much came back?
You tell me, economics guru.
Interesting that you never provide any data, facts or figures, but sure know what is wrong with any that is provided.
So please, none of your simplistic tripe…
Just Saying..
September 20th, 2012
12:03 pm
“And yet, I have never done so, Just Saying.
Go figure.”
I agree with you, then, the info in Woodward book will have no meaningful impact on the electorate.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
12:05 pm
I see the hate-filled one-note wonder has escaped Bookman’s this afternoon.
Just Saying..
September 20th, 2012
12:05 pm
““For those keeping score game over right here”
And yet, not a single vote has been cast, JDW.”
Oh, tell me again where Karl Rove is putting his money now?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
12:07 pm
“I agree with you, then, the info in Woodward book will have no meaningful impact on the electorate.”
Nor have I said that, either, Just Saying.
How about this: You say what you believe, and stop trying to say what I believe.
Got it?
Junior Samples
September 20th, 2012
12:08 pm
md
as opposed to the decisive gimmick called the “No Tax Pledge”, created by a 12 yr old?
If enough of us, both sides, call to end the tax cuts- across the board, someone will listen.
Stephenson Billings
September 20th, 2012
12:10 pm
Report: Never an Anti-American Protest in Benghazi, Only a Planned Attack
“CBS reports this morning that witnesses are saying “that there was never an anti-American protest outside of the consulate [in Benghazi, Libya]. Instead, they say, it came under planned attack. That is in direct contradiction to the administration’s account of the incident.”
“What’s clear,” the CBS reporter concludes, “is that the public won’t get a detailed account of what happened until after the election.”
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/report-never-anti-american-protest-benghazi-only-planned-attack_652761.html
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
September 20th, 2012
12:11 pm
“Oh, tell me again where Karl Rove is putting his money now?”
And this has to do with a vote – how, JDW?
Please pay attention. It is difficult to have conversations with folks that chase shiny objects on a perpetual basis.
Stephenson Billings
September 20th, 2012
12:12 pm
More Americans Than Forecast Filed Jobless Claims
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-20/more-americans-than-forecast-filed-jobless-claims-last-week.html
Just Saying..
September 20th, 2012
12:13 pm
“You say what you believe…”
Tib, I believe you’re…..
Naw, too easy.
Gotta go. My CPA says the missing two minutes shows how I can get my taxes into the 47%…
md
September 20th, 2012
12:14 pm
Am…..those figures you provide as nothing more than a snapshot for that particular moment in time, and it has nothing to do with taxes.
You are trying to compare apples to oranges……taxes are wholly “within” our system (hence the reason 2T in corp profit is sitting offshore) while income/asset/wealth has a global component.
Trying to equate what one group has in comparison to what another group has without taking into consideration where all that money comes from is where you are going off the track.
It goes back to my simplistic tripe concerning the trade imbalance……when the middle class shops at walmart and buys all that foreign stuff, how much of their money is staying in China?……so in reality, they could be giving that money to some rich guy in china and our upper class is getting their extra wealth from Indonesians…………
JDW
September 20th, 2012
12:15 pm
@Tiberius…”Please pay attention. It is difficult to have conversations with folks that chase shiny objects on a perpetual basis.”
Are you drinking already or just delusional as usual? Pssssttttt…I didn’t mention Karl Rove.