From Benghazi to Cairo to Jerusalem to Damascus, a question: Where does America stand? (Updated)

In March 2011, the U.S. and our allies intervened in Libya’s burgeoning civil war to prevent a massacre of civilians by forces loyal to Moammar Gadhafi in the coastal city of Banghazi. Yesterday, militants in that city — including, perhaps, some of the more extremist elements of the rebels whose cause we took up last year — showed their gratitude by killing four Americans, including our ambassador to Libya.

“Lafayette, we are here,” it was not.

The murders in Benghazi followed a siege earlier in the day of the U.S. embassy in Cairo in neighboring Egypt. Both attacks were blamed on Islamic extremists angered by a film hardly anyone in America had heard of, made by someone hardly anyone in America had heard of or discussed, that purportedly insults the Muslim prophet Muhammad. (See screen grab below, a Google search for the name of the movie in question. Note: I stopped at Sept. 5 because results in the days after that date begin to include references to the attacks, which obviously were added as updates after the fact.)

Innocence of Muslims movie Google screen grab

Image: Google screen grab

The attacks came, of course, on the 11th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks on American soil.

In Cairo, protesters scaled our embassy’s walls, lowered our flag — which was at half-staff in remembrance of the 9/11 attacks — and replaced it with a banner similar to the one used by al-Qaida, and chanted, “We are all Osama,” as in bin Laden. As they did so, some member(s) of the embassy’s staff wrote repeatedly on Twitter — the social media platform that was widely used by young Egyptians during their uprising against Hosni Mubarak’s government — that the U.S. government condemned … the movie. Those tweets were later deleted as the State Department distanced itself from those remarks, but do not believe that the reflexive sensibility on display in the messages came out of the blue: If nothing else, our diplomats, especially three and a half years into a presidency, are well-trained to reflect the prevailing beliefs and sensibilities of the administration in office. That is their job, after all.

The interim president of Libya has apologized for the deaths in his country. As of this writing, there has been no such regret expressed by Egyptian officials. On the contrary, the Muslim Brotherhood, one of whose members is the country’s new president, called for nationwide protests against the film on Friday. At least they said the protests are supposed to be peaceful, I guess.

For his part, the president this morning issued a statement that read, in part: “While the United States rejects efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others, we must all unequivocally oppose the kind of senseless violence that took the lives of these public servants.” The moral equivalence on display here — this is bad, that is bad, and no one should do bad things — is astounding.

But what’s really astounding is that, 11 years to the day after 9/11, our embassies in two Arab countries could be attacked by Islamic terrorists, and our government’s response would include wagging its finger at the people whose non-violent actions allegedly triggered the terrorists’ violence. That, 11 years to the day after 9/11, we still have people who believe these extremists need a reason to be mad at us.

Folks: They don’t need a reason, just an excuse to hand to the useful idiots who will continue to excuse them as people with legitimate religious grievances. (UPDATED at 12:25 p.m.: CNN is now reporting, based on information from “U.S. sources,” that the attacks in Benghazi were planned in advance and used protests about the movie as a diversion.) They just hate us. Period.

Now, “they” does not mean “all Muslims” or “all Arabs” or any such thing. But it does mean a large segment of the populations in the Middle East and North Africa, a relative few of whom trade on the ignorance and pliability of many others to pursue their totalitarian political goals.

Yet, 11 years later, they storm our embassy buildings and kill our civilians, and, 11 years later, our president doesn’t betray an understanding of the cause and effect at play here.

Add to these events and responses the statement from the White House, also yesterday, that the president is not available to meet with the prime minister of Israel, our closest ally in the region and a country known to be mulling military action to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear weapon. Add to it as well the continuing massacre of Syrians by their own government, in a war eerily similar to the one in which we intervened in Libya, except for the fact that this time even our weakest efforts to stop the government-sponsored killing have been blocked by our supposed friends in Moscow.

And for all the crowing from Democrats, and specifically Obama, at their convention last week about their supposed foreign-policy superiority, the question I keep coming back to is one uttered a week earlier, by Condoleezza Rice, at the GOP convention:

Where does America stand? You see when the friends or foes alike don’t know the answer to that question, unambiguously and clearly, the world is likely to be a more dangerous and chaotic place.

Evidently so.

– By Kyle Wingfield

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575 comments Add your comment

Dearie

September 12th, 2012
12:12 pm

“Yet, 11 years later, they storm our embassy buildings and kill our civilians, and, 11 years later, our president doesn’t betray an understanding of the cause and effect at play here.”

SO TRUE AND SO FRIGHTENING! Good column Kyle

Del

September 12th, 2012
12:19 pm

Obama said that those responsible will be brought to justice. He also said that Libyan authorities came to the aid of our Ambassador and his staff. Obama needs to assure the American people and the families of our fallen that a full investigation will be made to determine all of the facts including the level of aid rendered by Libyan authorities at the time of this attack and ensure that the Libyan government participates in finding these terrorists and bringing them to justice as terrorist war criminals.

Bruno

September 12th, 2012
12:20 pm

Folks: They don’t need a reason, just an excuse to hand to the useful idiots who will continue to excuse them as people with legitimate religious grievances. They just hate us. Period.

Kyle–You took the words right out of my mouth. Content, well-adjusted people in this world don’t respond violently to controversial films or slights toward their religious beliefs. The hatred which drives the terrorists has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with their own discontent in this world along with a culture which accepts violence.

and replaced it with a banner similar to the one used by al-Qaida, and chanted, “We are all Osama,” as in bin Laden.

The truly goofy thing about this particular protest is that, by all accounts, Bin Laden wasn’t a faithful follower of Mohammed.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/04/bin-ladens-theology/

cc

September 12th, 2012
12:22 pm

America has no clearly defined foreign policy, and hasn’t had one since January, 2009. I’m sure the actions in Libya and Egypt will necessitate another ‘apology tour’ and a few speeches by Hussein. After all, an eloquent speech with the right delivery solves all problems.

The United States could and should sever all ties with the Middle East with the exception of Israel. After all, we are no longer dependent on their oil. We have the Canadian Pipeline to ease the loss of the Middle Eastern oil. WHAT? We don’t have the pipeline? Hussein blocked the Canadian Pipeline? Oh, well, the loss of Middle Eastern oil can be partially offset by the oil exploration being done on government owned lands. WHAT? No permits have been issued by Hussein for exploration and recovery of oil on government owned land?

Hussein has forced GREATER dependence on the OPEC nations since January, 2009 while at the same time borrowing and spending at astounding levels. Does anyone else see a pattern here?

BuckeyeInGa

September 12th, 2012
12:25 pm

Both attacks were blamed on Islamic extremists angered by a film hardly anyone in America had heard of, made by someone hardly anyone in America had heard of or discussed (see screen grab nearby), that purportedly insults the Muslim prophet Muhammad.

–It doesn’t make much of a difference if anyone in America had hardly heard of it. As said in the past, acts like making this film or burning Quran, like that guy in Florida wanted to do, puts American that are overseas in danger.

Bruno

September 12th, 2012
12:28 pm

As said in the past, acts like making this film or burning Quran, like that guy in Florida wanted to do, puts American that are overseas in danger.

Out of curiosity, Buckeye, if we were more vigilant to stop controversial films being made and to better prevent any Qurans from being burnt, do you really think that will make any significant impact in global terrorism??

Also, would a Bible burning in the Middle East motivate you to violence??

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

September 12th, 2012
12:31 pm

“Where does America stand?”

Under THIS administration – flat-footed.

JamVet

September 12th, 2012
12:38 pm

Oh my goodness, Kyle.

What an absolutely terrible article you’ve written. On numerous levels.

First, Condi asks where do we stand??? THAT woman has the _____ to ask THAT question???!!!

We stand in the post apocalyptic landscape capped off by the “greatest foreign policy blunder in modern American history”. (hat tip the combat veteran Chuck Hagle, R – Nebr.)

5,000 Americans KIA’d needlessly, tens of thousands more wounded and maimed horrifically and trillions of dollars lied, cheated and stolen from American taxpayers to botch the invasion and occupation, every single step of the way. (Thanks, George, Dick, Karl, PNAC stooges everywhere and Condi.)

And not surprisingly, you seem to have “omitted” the depraved comments on this matter from someone who is supposedly very important to you Republicans about now.

The bottom line is that there in NO WAY IN HELL that American voters are going to put yet another bungling, deadly, incompetent neocon right back int he White House.

Thank all of the deities everywhere…

BuckeyeInGa

September 12th, 2012
12:41 pm

@Bruno, a Bible burning wouldn’t motivate me to violence, but I’m sure there are people in this country that are the opposite, heck there are people that kill doctors who perform abortions. I think being vigilant to stop the stuff I just mention won’t give the “extremest” the match needed to start their propaganda powder keg.

Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)

September 12th, 2012
12:45 pm

Well said, Jam.

Auntie Christ

September 12th, 2012
12:56 pm

Where does America stand? The truth is Americans themselves don’t know where they stand. As good an example as any of this is wingfield’s poll question on this site 8/24/12, “should we intervene if syria use WMD?” On this, a conservative blog, frequented by mostly right-leaning readers(voters), the response was 82 No, 64 Yes, 13 IDK. If you polled again on a question of what action should the US take here, i.e intervene militarily somehow or not, I submit that the responses would almost parallel the 8/24/12 results. What other responses can we take? Withdraw our ambassadors? Embargo egyptian and libyan exports? (what exports?)

The only ‘response’ we are likely to see is a lot of blustering from the right about ‘weakness’ when in actuality, they have no better answer than the left. The American people are not going to stand for going to war over this, and there is dam little economically we can do. My suggestion is for all those calling for blood, who are more than likely gun owners themselves, grab your gun, join the Israeli military and have at it. If you’re not willing to do that, then don’t burden the rest of us with your accusations of ‘cowardice.’

Undecided Voter

September 12th, 2012
12:56 pm

Your key sentence: As they [protesters climbed the walls of our embassy] some member(s) of the embassy’s staff wrote repeatedly on Twitter — the social media platform that was widely used by young Egyptians during their uprising against Hosni Mubarak’s government — that the U.S. government condemned … the movie. Kyle, what would you have tweeted if you had been inside the embassy?

independent thinker

September 12th, 2012
12:58 pm

KYLE – This film was prepared by the extreme right wing crazies who here and i Israel want to incite a war against Iran and all Muslim radicals. Your boy Mitt was getting his rear end kicked by all the GOP mouthpieces this past week for his abysmal performance. Your leader told him yesterday to go “ideological”

So now that this film is rolled out to start an international flare up in US-Arab relations people like you, Fox News , El Rushbo and the usual hate mongers like Bachmann and Bolton are trumpeting the horns of hatred and xenophobia- good job . Why not just refer to Obama as President Hussein to whip up the flames some more???

Bruno

September 12th, 2012
1:03 pm

I think being vigilant to stop the stuff I just mention won’t give the “extremest” the match needed to start their propaganda powder keg.

Buckeye–I can’t claim to have a finger on the pulse of the average Middle Easterner, but I think the main driver of anti-American hatred is our continued military presence throughout the region. If you recall, Bin Laden was from Saudi Arabia, as were the folks who drove the planes into the World trade Center. Osama was enraged by the military partnership of his own government with ours, by which the Saudi royals suppress their own people. And to a degree, I can’t say that I blame bin Laden for that sentiment. How would you feel if Saudi soldiers had bases in the US, and if our government used Saudi military helicopters to gun down dissident Americans??

Centrist

September 12th, 2012
1:12 pm

We live in a very brutal world – even if not as uncivilized as in the past. Pretending otherwise has repeatedly been our folly. Enemies based on politics, economics, natural resources, religion, or any other reason do not view platitudes in any way other than weakness to be exploited. It was that way with Jimmy Carter, and now Barack Obama.

Voters knew 5 years ago that Obama thought dialogue with our vowed enemies was the correct way to conduct that part of our foreign policy. His support for the Muslim uprisings has simply backfired. But the liberal media is going to provide as much cover for this failed policy as much as they excuse his economic policy failures – because the socialistic political goals are of their overriding concern.

@@

September 12th, 2012
1:12 pm

Almost impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff over there.

I’ve lost all patience with ‘em.

It’s impossible to save people who are hell-bent on killing innocents.

God save the missionaries willing to serve in that sandpit.

They’re better Christians than I.

Bruno

September 12th, 2012
1:14 pm

Well said, Jam.

I think the verb “said” is bit too mild to describe Jam’s diatribe above, Finn. “Well vented” or “Well spitted” might be more appropriate. ;-)

fair and balanced

September 12th, 2012
1:14 pm

Lets think about this Syria Iran nonsense the right and Kyle is advocating . Our boy W and the neocons put a Shiite majority government in place in Syria that is sympathetic to Iran removing one of Iran’s main enemies. Iraq now is aiding Assam and the minority Shiite/.Alawite government trying to hold on in Syria And the Christians are on Assad’s side. So will one of you neocons who are ready to march into Syria and Iran please explain how we deal with Iraq and the Christians in Syria as a result of W’s brilliant efforts and the fact that the rebels in Syria are Suunni radicals who also are the insurgency in Iraq???? Love to hear the neocon solution . I know your boy Mitt does not have a clue.

@@

September 12th, 2012
1:21 pm

Geez!

AmVet would have us believe there were no attacks on American soil prior to the Iraq invasion.

JDW

September 12th, 2012
1:22 pm

So let me get this right, Kyle…a couple of right wing crazies gin up a movie DESIGNED to provoke this response. You are outraged at the embassy staff for their choice of tweets and at the President for condemning the violence.

So what do you think we should do…give the right wingers a medal for “sticking it to” Muslims. Maybe we should just go ahead and bomb Egypt then invade Iran. Come on Kyle, spare us the outrage at the Adminstration and tell us what you would do.

Maybe you could start by offering condolences to the families of those that lost loved ones in the line of duty rather than promptly engaging in bashing the President.

Kyle Wingfield

September 12th, 2012
1:24 pm

JDW: As usual, you don’t have it right.

They BOTH suck

September 12th, 2012
1:25 pm

“I’ve lost all patience with ‘em.”

And we are all glad that you have zero input as to what the US does in the ME. US foreign policy, especially in the ME, while taking twists and turns from administration to administration is much larger and strategic than any given President. Not saying I agree with the policies but it is what it is.

We will have a presence there regardless of who wins in November.

@@

September 12th, 2012
1:26 pm

Do we have the remains of the four Americans killed? There’s a video out that shows Arabs carrying Ambassador Stevens’ body away.

Kyle Wingfield

September 12th, 2012
1:27 pm

JamVet: So, we’re back to “blame Bush”? Got it.

And, assuming you’re talking about Romney’s comments: What, exactly, did he say that qualifies as “depraved”?

They BOTH suck

September 12th, 2012
1:27 pm

@@

Yes there were attacks on US soil before the invasion of Iraq, but unless you are living in the “Twilight Zone”, those who carried out the 9/11 atrocities and their backers were not Iraqi or Iraqi financed.

Bruno

September 12th, 2012
1:29 pm

AmVet would have us believe there were no attacks on American soil prior to the Iraq invasion.

JDW: As usual, you don’t have it right.

Since JamVet, fair and balanced, and JDW are so critical of Bush’s foreign policy decisions, maybe one of them can enlighten us as to what our best course of action in the Middle East is. Keep in mind that our primary motivation for being there in the first place is to ensure the free flow of oil upon which our economy depends. Maybe not a noble reason, but that’s the reality. We may dream of being energy independent one day, but right now we’re not.

Auntie Christ

September 12th, 2012
1:30 pm

Undecided Voter
September 12th, 2012
12:56 pm

Kyle, what would you have tweeted if you had been inside the embassy?
**************************************************

Moot point, kyle. like all the right wing keyboard warriors (and I mustn’t forget the “centrist” warrior posting at 1:12 pm) would never actually put themselves in harm’s way. Their sacrifice for the safety of our country lies in their struggles at their keyboards,valiantly facing the danger of carpal tunnel syndrome, to daily deliver the news of threats from the left to our well being and security.

Kyle Wingfield

September 12th, 2012
1:30 pm

Auntie Christ: Who said anything about going to war over this? But I do think there’s a qualitative difference between blaming the killers for the killing, rather than buying their excuse about a movie.

Kyle Wingfield

September 12th, 2012
1:30 pm

Undecided: Who said they were in the embassy? The last reports I saw indicated the embassy had already been evacuated.

Interested Observer

September 12th, 2012
1:31 pm

I’m frustrated with Kyle’s post on so many levels.

First, President Obama wasn’t available to me with Netanyahu because Netanyahu did not request a meeting. Of course, Obama will talk with him any time, even if they don’t happen to be in the same city on the same day. Netanyahu’s whining about not getting a meeting that he never requested is him trying to interfere with our presidential election. I’m disappointed that the press gave him the attention that he so desperately craves.

Also, of course we know where America stands when the likes of Condoleezza Rice is in charge: Ready. Fire! Aim…and throw in a little waterboarding while you’re at it. She shouldn’t be speaking at party conventions. She should be relaxing in a small cell in The Hague for her part in violating the Geneva Conventions. For the record, I’m not trying to be provocative. Simply put, she’s a war criminal.

Finally, I wonder what Kyle Wingfield and other Obama critics would have us do in response to the murders in Libya (nobody was attacked or killed in Egypt). Their government had nothing to do with it and expressed sympathy for those who were attacked. Who do we declare war on? Who do we bomb?

In Syria, what do we do? Who do we bomb? Who do we give weapons too? What will they do with the weapons if and when the regime is toppled?

Rice said, “Where does America stand? You see when the friends or foes alike don’t know the answer to that question, unambiguously and clearly, the world is likely to be a more dangerous and chaotic place.” That’s jingoism, and it’s as disgusting as it is stupid.

Kyle Wingfield

September 12th, 2012
1:33 pm

fair and balanced: Oh, so now it’s Bush’s fault that Assad has been president of Syria since Clinton was in office. Man, I had no idea how devious these neocons could be!

They BOTH suck

September 12th, 2012
1:34 pm

Bruno @ 1:29

Add in the protection of Israel and I am with you 100%. If it was all about democracy, we would be calling out our so called allies for their brutality…….. can anyone say Saudi Arabia.

When it is Iran (Not defending those tyrants) we call out their bs, and rightfully so, but when it is the Saudis, we look the other way as they treat their own just as the Iranians do theirs.

We have been there for sometime and will be there for much longer than we have been already.

Kyle Wingfield

September 12th, 2012
1:35 pm

Auntie @ 1:30: Yes, it is a moot point, for the reason I explained at 1:30.

Kyle Wingfield

September 12th, 2012
1:38 pm

Interested @ 1:31: “President Obama wasn’t available to me[et] with Netanyahu because Netanyahu did not request a meeting.”

No, what the White House denies is the Israeli claim that Netanyahu offered to meet in Washington as well as New York.

@@

September 12th, 2012
1:38 pm

TBs:

And we are all glad that you have zero input as to what the US does in the ME.

Me too ’cause my solution wouldn’t be well received.

Get those worth saving out and let Netanyahu level their playground.

Maybe not Iraqis but all were Muslim.

Kyle Wingfield

September 12th, 2012
1:39 pm

Bruno: If you and TBS are good enough friends to attend a concert together, you’re good enough friends to communicate somewhere other than this blog.

Bruno

September 12th, 2012
1:40 pm

Yes there were attacks on US soil before the invasion of Iraq, but unless you are living in the “Twilight Zone”, those who carried out the 9/11 atrocities and their backers were not Iraqi or Iraqi financed.

TBS–The reason we went to war with Iraq was to loosen the stranglehold that Saddam had on the country and its resources. In case you forgot, the UN sanctions caused his refusal to allow nuclear reactor inspections led to an almost complete shutdown of the oil production there. A secondary reason we invaded was to make an example out of Saddam and to potentially plant the seeds of democracy in the ME.

Hillbilly D

September 12th, 2012
1:41 pm

Throughout history, adversaries will always push and prod for signs of weakness. If they perceive weakness, they’ll push and prod farther until they get what they want or they are stopped. I think it’s very important to find out how the Libyan and Egyptian governments react to this. If their re-action is swift and forceful, that’s one thing and if it isn’t it’s another.

Not all human beings think alike and we just have to accept the fact that not all the world looks at things as we do. We need to be realistic about it and act accordingly.

Just because you don’t hate your neighbor doesn’t mean he isn’t going to hate you. And if he does hate you, that’s on him, not you, just always be ready for whatever he might throw your way.

And in my opinion, the timing of this sort of negates the “it’s about a movie” reasoning. That’s more of an excuse than anything else.

JDW

September 12th, 2012
1:42 pm

@Kyle..it’s not that I don’t have it right, it’s that I don’t agree with you. I don’t see any reasonable response that the Adminstration could take in this case other than condem the mob violence and work to improve security. Both of which are underway. What else would you have them do since you so obviously feel the need to bash that response?

@@

September 12th, 2012
1:43 pm

I’ve heard two responses out of the WH. The first? Netanyahu never requested a meeting. Second? There was a scheduling conflict.

How can the WH have a scheduling conflict for a meeting that was never scheduled?

Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)

September 12th, 2012
1:44 pm

It’s impossible to save people who are hell-bent on killing innocents

Like the 100,000+ Iraqi and Afghan civilians we’ve killed over the last 10 years?

You don’t wage war killing that many civilians and not expect some blow back. Let’s see Canadian (for instance) troops kill your mom, your kid, your cousins, your aunts and uncles and see if you want to sit back and smile and play nice.

SBinF

September 12th, 2012
1:46 pm

On the subject of Netanyahu….it’s rather odd that he steps up his rhetoric just as his old friend Mitt is beginning to be dumped on in the polling and media.

I’m sure that’s just a coincidence…

Interested Observer

September 12th, 2012
1:46 pm

“…the White House denied any intentional snub of Netanyahu, saying that the president was not able to meet the Israeli leader in New York because the pair would not be in the city on the same day. It also said Netanyahu did not request a meeting in Washington, ‘nor was a request for a meeting ever denied’.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/obama-binyamin-netanyahu-us-visit?newsfeed=true

Aren’t there more important things to cover than Netanyahu’s sensibilities about a face-to-face meeting with the President? This whole thing strikes me as petty. It’s reminiscent of when Gingrich complained about his seat on Air Force One.

Undecided Voter

September 12th, 2012
1:47 pm

Kyle — In your own words, these tweets were going on as the mob climbed the walls of the embassy. Obviously, somebody was trying to use social media to diffuse the situation. Again, in this situation, what would you have been tweeting?

Centrist

September 12th, 2012
1:48 pm

Kyle,

Can you tell us what staff meetings and parties are like for you at the AJC when you are surrounded by liberal reporters, bloggers, and editors?

The inside of your cheeks must be like ground beef from biting them after such events. My hat is off to you to be in this industry, much less working for the AJC; although there just aren’t many non-liberal media outlets that offer extremely competitive jobs.

I totally understand if you need to ignore/delete this post.

They BOTH suck

September 12th, 2012
1:48 pm

Bruno

I know why we went to Iraq, but in my opinion democracy is secondary. It sounds good and if it works long term than it was a plus, however I think that it isn’t the main goal. Call me cynical but that is my thoughts on the issue.

I am not dissing Bush because the same holds true for Democratic Administrations as well.

If we really wanted democracy to flourish as we claim, why not push our “allies”; Suadia Arabia, Kuwait, Jordon for reform and call them out as we do our adversaries?

Again, I am aware of the foreign policy issues we face in that region, but our fork tongued policies get us in trouble at times.

@@

September 12th, 2012
1:48 pm

Finn:

They were attacking us before Iraq.

Obama’s killing innocents in Afghanistan right NOW!!!! Are you opposed?

JamVet

September 12th, 2012
1:48 pm

AmVet would have us believe…

Gawd only knows what you and your imaginary friends “believe”! But please do not share it!

Right, Kyle, vis a vis He Who Shall Not be Named. Condi Rice talking about foreign policy in the Middle East. The irony evades you, huh? The worst administration in sixty years and THEY are the ones to admonish anyone on these matters?

But alas, due to the Obama Recovery, duty calls.

As for Rooney’s idiotic comments, I can post them and the damning timeline when I get back. (As it if it will matter!)

Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)

September 12th, 2012
1:49 pm

Were our diplomats under the normal security blanket that any of our other diplomats in the middle east are under? If so, then it’s an unfortunate event. But If someone was lollygagging or didn’t do their job/show up for work/ showed up for work after a night on the hooka, then yea, we need to investigate and heads need to roll.

Most people don’t accept assignments overseas and NOT know there is a small chance they might not live to tell about it.

Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)

September 12th, 2012
1:50 pm

@@ i wasn’t saying that was the ONLY thing they have to be angry with us about. I’m just giving that as an example.