T-SPLOST vote reiterates: We’re more ‘metro’ than ‘Atlanta’
On Tuesday’s ballots, perhaps no question was more opposite the T-SPLOST in scope and spirit than the cityhood initiative for Brookhaven. Their opposite results — voters soundly defeated the T-SPLOST but approved Brookhaven’s incorporation — create a congruity that helps explain why the tax proposal was ill-designed from the start.
In short: Our region is not becoming more centralized, but less. The popular and political momentum is not toward bigger, but smaller.
Counting Brookhaven, which becomes a city of some 49,000 residents, four of Georgia’s 20 most-populous cities didn’t exist just seven years ago. All four — the others are Dunwoody, Johns Creek and Sandy Springs — are in Fulton and DeKalb counties. So are two smaller new cities, Chattahoochee Hills and Milton.
The biggest reason these areas incorporated was to insulate themselves as much as possible from costly, ineffective county governments. But it’s instructive that, while both Brookhaven and Sandy Springs abut Atlanta, neither of them sought refuge in the big city’s arms.
In fact, the last half-century of our history shows that, while the gravitational pull for the state’s population is toward Atlanta, the drift within the metro area is toward the edges. In 1960, Atlanta was a city of 487,455 in a metro area of 1.3 million. The 2010 census found a city of 420,003 in a metro area of almost 5.3 million. This steady trend toward the periphery did not prevent prosperity.
This is a different development pattern than other large U.S. metro areas have seen, or at least a starker example of a common one. Among the nation’s 20 largest metro areas, the average central city is home to a fifth of its region’s residents. Atlanta dropped below that threshold sometime in the 1970s and now sits at 8 percent. Only Miami and Riverside, Calif., anchor less-centralized regions.
Getting back to the T-SPLOST, the cities to which tax proponents often compared Atlanta have far more concentrated populations. To name a few: Dallas (19 percent of its metro area’s residents live in the hub city), Denver (24 percent), Portland (26 percent), Houston (35 percent), Phoenix (35 percent), Charlotte (42 percent).
To reach those levels of centralization, hundreds of thousands of metro Atlantans would have to move inside the capital city’s limits. Can anyone honestly envision that happening?
Yet, the city of Atlanta stood to receive the highest share of T-SPLOST spending relative to the tax revenues it generated: 140 percent. Gwinnett County, to name one counter-example, was to keep just 74 cents on the dollar.
It’s true that commuters in each county stood to benefit from projects built elsewhere, but those figures were overly skewed. The Atlanta-centric nature of the project list ran counter to the way metro residents have voted with their feet. And that gave the appearance, at least, that the point was not to relieve traffic congestion where it has developed, but to turn that gravitational pull back toward the central city. Which fed into the crucial issue of trust, or lack thereof.
As an Atlanta resident myself, I don’t want to see the city continue its stagnation. But I do think its renaissance will require much more than a force-feeding of transportation funding from elsewhere. If the T-SPLOST’s defeat spurs Atlanta’s leaders to figure out what else they need to do, maybe the whole lamentable exercise was worthwhile.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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310 comments Add your comment
getalife
August 5th, 2012
12:25 pm
Ooops, wrong thread.
My bad.
zeke
August 5th, 2012
12:48 pm
It is very telling , the defeat of a so called regional transportation plan. It goes back 30, 40, maybe 50 years or more. Atlanta and Fulton and Dekalb counties set about on one single path, TO PROMOTE A BLACK ORIENTED AGENDA. That would have been fine, EXCEPT, they decided to take tax money from suburban communities and spend it promoting that agenda at the expense of the suburban communities. MARTA WAS SUCH A PROJECT AND FAILED BOTH TO ATTRACT SUBURBAN COUNTY RESIDENTS AND ALSO HAS BEEN A COMPLETE FAILURE AS A SYSTEM! Hence the formation of cities like Sandy Springs, Milton, Johns Creek and now Brookhaven. It should have happened long ago. Atlanta and Fulton squandered billions of dollars on social and racial agenda projects instead of fixing such things as the sewer and waste treatment systems, because, THEY HAD MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO SPEND IT ON! Reminds me of the New Orleans levies. THEY HAD THE MONEY TO REPAIR, FIX, RAISE THEM, BUT, THEY HAD MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO SPEND IT ON! These are just a couple of reasons there is no trust in government!! And, mass transit, whether it be marta or some other ill conceived system, is not the answer You must DIRECT TRAFFIC NOT DESTINED FOR DOWNTOWN OR ANY AREA INSIDE 285 AWAY FROM THAT AREA NOT INTO IT! Thus, the outer loop/perimeter with some very direct, very limited interchange routes, taking traffic around and away from the core is THE ONLY ANSWER. Immediate improvement of traffic flow would be the elimination of the hov lanes. that move alone would increase traffic flow from 16% to 33% depending on specific roadways! Making stopped buses leave the traffic flow lanes is another! There are many! Mass transit is not one of them!
Liberalism is a mental disorder, Conservatism is a cult
August 5th, 2012
12:52 pm
@ middle of the road “So there is some truth to what MARTA really stands for?”
FYI there are minorities other than black particularly in Gwinnett. None of them share the disdain for transit or the city that white southerners do.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
August 5th, 2012
12:58 pm
Sprawl is the answer. Lower density, lower congestion. Spread folks out so traffic can go in many directions rather than being forced onto three major arteries, any one of which can be shut down by a single Democrat driver or a depressed Obozo receptacle threatening to jump on the first Wednesday of November.
Liberalism is a mental disorder, Conservatism is a cult
August 5th, 2012
1:01 pm
” It is very telling, the defeat of a so called regional transportation plan. It goes back 30, 40, maybe 50 years or more. Atlanta and Fulton and Dekalb counties set about on one single path, TO PROMOTE A BLACK ORIENTED AGENDA.”
Once again you demonstrate the COLOSSAL ignorance about this issue. The Marta idea and plan was conceived BEFORE Atlanta had a majority black population and it was created by the state legislature. It was born with a similar vision that the TSPLOST has which is to develop a true regional transit system.
Its quite sad that Atlanta used to be a city of such vision unlike today when all you people can see is skin color.
Liberalism is a mental disorder, Conservatism is a cult
August 5th, 2012
1:16 pm
“Sprawl is the answer.”
If that were true then we would have already achieved nirvana considering that thats all we’ve done for close to 50 years. On the contrary, the problems with sprawl a just beginning to catch up to Atlanta “the metro”.
We have fewer jobs today than we did in 2001 and increasingly educated people with options and high paying jobs are choosing cities that have options other than 30 min commutes for their employees.
Reverie
August 5th, 2012
1:18 pm
Again, calling opponents racists or mindless right-wingers won’t get what you want and demonstrates your infant-like grasp of the world. Want my help? Quit painting my opposition as racially or politically biased. If you really want my help, put on your big boy underoos and sit down and talk. I don’t give children my checkbook.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
August 5th, 2012
1:21 pm
Really, zeke? A “black oriented agenda”?
You’re gonna hang your hat on that one?
Advancement comes slowly to some people . . .
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
August 5th, 2012
2:00 pm
Liberalism is a mental disorder: If that were true (sprawl is the answer) then we would have already achieved nirvana
—————————
False. There are still too many businesses insisting on locating downtown and adjacent to the perimeter. Were they to move farther out where their workers are, the major arteries would look like the autobahn.
No MARTA in Gwinnett
August 5th, 2012
2:28 pm
Gwinnett voted out MARTA time and time again. Then the fine Gwinnett commissioners decided to created a Gwinnett bus system fo its own (without a VOTE). Well how many commissioners do you think were re-elected after that one? They were voted out of office. Ever since the bus system in Gwinnett we have had much more crime within the boundaries. We don’t need any more – no MARTA – no MARTA rail in Gwinnett!!! If they ever try this all politicians will be VOTED OUT !!!!!
And yes, they need to do away with the HOT/HOV lanes as it shall open up traffic immensely – it certainly has “hindered Gwinnett traffic” with them.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
2:41 pm
“Everything” covers a lot of ground. I’d have to say “bull” to that one.
As I would say the same ” bull” to that one too.
Oh and before the proponents of this soak the suburbs piece socialist tripe forget your TSPLOST went down in a brutal defeat and that’s no “BULL”
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
2:55 pm
No MARTA in Gwinnett
Actually three times and the last one when the deadbeats said they wanted MARTA in Gwinnett were ask will you pay for it, they change their minds very quickly.
Does that tell you anything about the mindset of the kind of people who ride MARTA?
I hope MARTA has to raise fares so high just to survive the deadbeats who always want someone else to pay for them to have a ride absolutely suffer major trauma as a result of the price increase.
I cannot wait for the day these mobility welfare recipients are forced to either pay 90% of the cost for their bus or train ride or pay for their on means of transportation mobility.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
3:11 pm
Tomorrow I’ll drive to work in my little old vehicle with no traffic to speak of. The only thing that will slow me down are a few stop signs and a couple traffic control devices (red lights) along my route. So I’ll probably laugh to myself thinking about all the whining TSPLOST loser that came on this blog to give me and other opponents of their TSPLOST whats for in reading us their riot act. Even funner will be the thoughts of these loser cursing me and the others under their breath while stuck in downtown Atlanta traffic, not to mention if MARTA workers face a funding short fall as a result of TSPLOST losing that 52% as they hoped they could count on.
Mr. Howell
August 5th, 2012
3:21 pm
There were no real basis for having TSPLOST in my opinion. What is already here will be here and no matter how much money is raised….our government will always find something to tax us for. TSPLOST started off wrong having only counties representatives instead of those who live in each county. Naturally, they were going to push for it. ARC I am told will continue and all of this talk about “Untie” all of these counties……what is it to unite like it is simple with TSPLOST. The citizens of Georgia was told lies from the onset; I spotted one right off the bat. Gov Deal said funding for the next 10 years then the Ga Legisatures could come back and vote again for the next 10 additional years and we would not see anything being done except in areas where they want to bring in a lot of revenue. Fulton and Dekalb would get the bulk of the funding…looking at the projects they have much more! Fulton and Dekalb is already paying a 1 percent taxes, then if the TSPLOST would have gone through, they would be paying 2 cent and the taxes would round up to be almost 11 percent sales taxes way to much! There is a need to make traveling better but the focus is only on downtown Atlanta with a few major highways in various counties needing to be improved to get traffic or those commuting where they need to get. Right now I75 is very dangeous with wrecks and those trying to exit to various places down town. Cobb Parkway is also dangerous, so is a lot of other highways that getting to them to get downtown are also in a very bad state so we or it appear that we rather take GA citizens money while we have unfinished work to do with all of the bridges, roads that needs fixing. Let’s stop telling lies to those who pay taxes, clean up our cities from all of the slums, vacant and rundown homes and strip malls and building that I have seen left to rot and draw in rats or anyother things that want’s live in them. The old ford plant, linger on with nothing being done; other and various communities where they are left in bad shape…….not even homeless people will go near them but we are asking for more money in taxes from Georigia citizens……is that right? I am with Carl, those individuals who lied to all of us needs to “resign” because they would have gotten the money they wanted in taxes from all of us but not give us any concrete facts about how they were ging to “Untie” all of these Counties and Atlanta as a whole. Taxes kills the working people who barely can meet their monthly obligations…thus, it kills the spirits and make one angry at a system that is bent on taking more from them. It is to late to untie anything at this point with the economy; there has to be a light somewhere to help us see where our tax dollars are going regardless in normal operations of these cities services. I am sure that interest on monies has not been told to us and I think it should. Our government is hurting the tax payers efforts to really approved anything forthcoming!
jd
August 5th, 2012
3:48 pm
NEWSFLASH!!! Confederacies dont’ work — see Confederate States of America, Articles of Confederation, T-SPLOST
Sue Ellen Ewing
August 5th, 2012
4:24 pm
The comments that some of these people make tells me a lot about why this state/country will never move forward. As long as the “I’m superior and you’re not” attitude remains …………………………..
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
August 5th, 2012
4:31 pm
Amen, Sue. For example, Obozo’s “I won, so I don’t have to listen to Americans, I’m ready to rule” attitude.
getalife
August 5th, 2012
5:03 pm
It is not about our President.
Thanks.
Dekalb comments
August 5th, 2012
5:28 pm
I am thankful that my company and our 132 employees with an average payroll of 149M is closing shop in Georgia 31 Dec 2012. We are moving to Colorado where things are much better. Key factors were an undereducated workforce (due to underfunding and traffic).The company projects a significant up ramp in work in 2013 and beyond to a projected 215 employees by 2015. Georgia and their stupid Republican gold-domers lose, Colorado wins. I see the demise of Atlanta and Georgia to a back-water, agrarian cesspool. Enjoy Kyle. This will be right up your alley.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
August 5th, 2012
5:39 pm
It is not about our President.
Lil Barry was just serving him up as a bad example, one of the few things he is qualified to do.
jj
August 5th, 2012
5:53 pm
Learn the lesson from GA 400 and the lexus lanes and abolish the SRTA and its cronies.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
August 5th, 2012
6:08 pm
We don’t have a president.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
August 5th, 2012
6:15 pm
If we had a president, something would get done to address our years of 8-10% unemployment and trillion-plus deficits.
Vote American.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
August 5th, 2012
6:19 pm
Mitt Romney is the closest thing we have to a leader right now, showing initiative, offering solutions, taking the lead, not just hanging on some basketball court.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
August 5th, 2012
6:23 pm
Oh, I’m sorry, obozo is hard at work, interrupting our pleasant Sunday afternoon to tell us what he really meant to say, what a jackass.
obozo
August 5th, 2012
6:28 pm
Right choo R, reporter, you didn’t build all those giant government boondoggles, yourrrrrrrrrrrrrrr money did. After we separated you from it.
And I ain’t on the basketball court, I’m on the golf course. Shows what you know.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
6:47 pm
Just gotta love it when a narcissistic fascist socialist democrat lectures others – usually Marxism hating Capitalist conservatives – about their unyielding supercilious attitudes holding back the socialist liberals ideas of progress.
Oh, wait a minute, what was that echo………………………… CRAM IT DOWN THEIR THROATS!
Yeah, thought so…………………………………………………………………………………………………..
middle of the road
August 5th, 2012
7:00 pm
“my company and our 132 employees with an average payroll of 149M”
I want to work at that company! The average salary is over a million dollars (or more likely, workers make $30,000 each and the CEO makes $140 million).
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
7:06 pm
Like we always say to the departing losers :
“Delta is ready when you are”
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
August 5th, 2012
7:35 pm
Dekalb comments
I am thankful that my company and our 132 employees with an average payroll of 149M is closing shop in Georgia 31 Dec 2012. We are moving to Colorado where things are much better.
That is kind of a back stabbing move, based on what Obama said. You and your boss did not build that company, is what he said. The US and Georgia government made that company possible, so if you support the Blamer in Chief, you owe it to Georgia to stay here. I mean GA built the roads and ran the schools, that educated the workers, produced the electricity and water you needed. If you think you have the right to just pick up and move, leaving us GA taxpayers on the hook, then you are an ingrate, based on Obama philosophy.
Dekalb comments
August 5th, 2012
8:43 pm
Middle of the road…sorry…the $149M is not payroll but total expenditures into the local economy.
Liberalism is a mental disorder, Conservatism is a cult
August 5th, 2012
8:44 pm
@ Sue Ellen Ewing
” The comments that some of these people make tells me a lot about why this state/country will never move forward. As long as the “I’m superior and you’re not” attitude remains …”
You are a wise woman!
This issue is a microcosm of the state of politics in this country. There are few true leaders with integrity and everyone just wants to take and defend their side while no one is truly concerned with solving problems.
Dekalb comments
August 5th, 2012
8:45 pm
Rafe Hollister
It is true that we have not done this on our own. We definitely had the benefit of tax dollar investments in roads, education, etc. So no, we didn’t do it ourselves but since we do rely on an infrastructure that supports our business needs including an educated workforce, reasonable transportation, etc. we are leaving Georgia to the hogs. Enjoy as this city and state slide to 50th in everything negative.
Lil' Barry Bailout - Vote American
August 5th, 2012
9:08 pm
Someone hasn’t noticed that is the northern libtarded Democrat states that are losing population and electoral votes, and mostly southern Republican states that are gaining them.
People are voting with their feet.
Liberalism is a mental disorder, Conservatism is a cult
August 5th, 2012
9:34 pm
@ No MARTA in Gwinnett
Unfortunately for you, you and the people that think like you are gradually declining in percentage of the county’s population. Tick Tock! Tick Tock! Tick Tock!
ND
August 5th, 2012
11:49 pm
“Atalanta DeKalb and MARTA have been crying after Gwinnet dollars for years!”
They have been crying for Gwinnett dollars because Gwinnett has an undeserved position on MARTA’s leadership board. They have been crying for state dollars because the state exercises authority over how the money is spent. MARTA supporters are annoyed at the entities that enjoy representation without taxation. It’s pretty simple.
NO MARTA in Gwinnett
August 6th, 2012
1:51 am
To: “Liberalism is a mental disorder, Conservatism is a cult” Conservatism is what this country was founded upon – if you wish to call that a cult – then GREAT – I AM PROUD!! Good God, people are trying to turn the USA into a liberal cesspool……… Tick..Tock..Tick..Tock to you! It will be at least another lifetime before your “wish” comes true in Gwinnett – especially regarding conservatism… In the meantime, MARTA would still be consistently voted OUT!!!
To: Michael H. Smith….What you stated is exactly true: “I cannot wait for the day these mobility welfare recipients are forced to either pay 90% of the cost for their bus or train ride or pay for their own means of transportation mobility.” EXACTLY RIGHT !!!
And, for Mayor Reed: We thought you stated “you NEVER LOSE???” You went on and on about how you “go after something and get it” – remember you stated “I NEVER LOSE” on television….well, YOU LOST!!!!! Thank God the bulk of these funds will not go to the City of Atlanta – deal with your own city. You might start off with your airport corruption…..and, well, you have a long list of others…….
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
August 6th, 2012
6:47 am
So when is Boy Scout Appreciation Day?
iggy
August 6th, 2012
7:06 am
Most have decided, long ago, to not be a part of the Atlanta, Fulton/DeKalb fiasco. We moved to the suburbs for a reason, that being to get away from corruption, crime etc.
iggy
August 6th, 2012
7:13 am
“I am thankful that my company and our 132 employees with an average payroll of 149M is closing shop in Georgia 31 Dec 2012. We are moving to Colorado where things are much better.”
Avg payroll of 149M? I find that hard to believe unless is some type of entity that is awash in govt contracts/corruption.
iggy
August 6th, 2012
7:17 am
PS…enjoy CO!! And thanks for assisting in some form of traffic congestion relief!!
stands for decibels
August 6th, 2012
8:12 am
So when is Boy Scout Appreciation Day?
Would that be in appreciation of the actual predators themselves, or the BSA management that protected them?
I guess a new “Closet Building” merit badge might be in order, in any case.
In at least 50 cases, the Scouts expelled suspected abusers, only to discover they had re-entered the organization and were accused of molesting again.
In other cases, officials failed to document reports of abuse in the first place, letting offenders stay in the program until new allegations came to light, the Times reported.
Darwin
August 6th, 2012
8:14 am
Ponder this. Where T-SPLOST was approved, the economy is based on low paying wages. Agriculture, timber, and prisons. T-SPLOST passed where the voters wanted better jobs and an improved infrastructure that would entice new industry. In metro Atlanta, it was about commute times and getting Johnny to the baseball game. It shows the priorities of people looking for better wages and new industry, and people who already have it but are stuck in traffic getting there.
Home Boy
August 6th, 2012
8:37 am
Send the “snow birds” back to Jersey – instant 10% reduction in congestion.
stands for decibels
August 6th, 2012
8:51 am
NO MARTA in Gwinnett
This guy probably lulls himself to sleep counting marauding Fultonians stealin’ TeeVees, instead of sheep.
Jefferson
August 6th, 2012
9:46 am
You metro ? Should I read the writing ?
Beverly Fraud
August 6th, 2012
9:55 am
Gee we didn’t believe Sam Williams and Kasim Reed knew what was best for us? After they showed SUCH integrity in the way they approached Beverly Hall and the APS cheating scandal?
SHOCKING!
We didn’t trust Nathan Deal, after his STELLAR ethics record in Congress?
SHOCKING!
Such ESTEEMED men, and we don’t trust them?
We should be ASHAMED of ourselves, for not trusting such fine, distinguished gentlemen.
Intown
August 6th, 2012
10:12 am
It’s time to get the “periphery” off the Central City’s teet. Let’s see how they like it when Atlanta stops subsidizing suburban water and economic development. Then what will the advantage be to throwing up walls and paying for multiple layers of unnecessary government?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
August 6th, 2012
10:15 am
sfd- Aahhh, so the heterosexual males within the Boy Scout organization are molesting the little boys in their care, ok, uh-huh, we got ya.
1961_Xer
August 6th, 2012
10:20 am
Fulton County Government.
Maynard Jackson
Bill Campbell
The Board of MARTA
Fulton County Libraries
The Atlanta water system
Pot holes covered by steel plates
Rampant illegal car booting
I could go on and on and on. The reasons to avoid Atlanta’s dysfunctional grasp are innumerable. Corruption and incompetence are rampant. I have lived in the Metro area for 30 years. I go inside the perimeter about five or six times per year. A TSPLOST that gives the lions share of dollars to Dekalb and South Fulton/Atlanta is meaningless to me. There are huge business centers in Cobb, Gwinnett and North Fulton. IMHO, increasing transportation between these three business centers deserves just as much money and attention at Atlanta/South Fulton and Dekalb.