T-SPLOST vote reiterates: We’re more ‘metro’ than ‘Atlanta’
On Tuesday’s ballots, perhaps no question was more opposite the T-SPLOST in scope and spirit than the cityhood initiative for Brookhaven. Their opposite results — voters soundly defeated the T-SPLOST but approved Brookhaven’s incorporation — create a congruity that helps explain why the tax proposal was ill-designed from the start.
In short: Our region is not becoming more centralized, but less. The popular and political momentum is not toward bigger, but smaller.
Counting Brookhaven, which becomes a city of some 49,000 residents, four of Georgia’s 20 most-populous cities didn’t exist just seven years ago. All four — the others are Dunwoody, Johns Creek and Sandy Springs — are in Fulton and DeKalb counties. So are two smaller new cities, Chattahoochee Hills and Milton.
The biggest reason these areas incorporated was to insulate themselves as much as possible from costly, ineffective county governments. But it’s instructive that, while both Brookhaven and Sandy Springs abut Atlanta, neither of them sought refuge in the big city’s arms.
In fact, the last half-century of our history shows that, while the gravitational pull for the state’s population is toward Atlanta, the drift within the metro area is toward the edges. In 1960, Atlanta was a city of 487,455 in a metro area of 1.3 million. The 2010 census found a city of 420,003 in a metro area of almost 5.3 million. This steady trend toward the periphery did not prevent prosperity.
This is a different development pattern than other large U.S. metro areas have seen, or at least a starker example of a common one. Among the nation’s 20 largest metro areas, the average central city is home to a fifth of its region’s residents. Atlanta dropped below that threshold sometime in the 1970s and now sits at 8 percent. Only Miami and Riverside, Calif., anchor less-centralized regions.
Getting back to the T-SPLOST, the cities to which tax proponents often compared Atlanta have far more concentrated populations. To name a few: Dallas (19 percent of its metro area’s residents live in the hub city), Denver (24 percent), Portland (26 percent), Houston (35 percent), Phoenix (35 percent), Charlotte (42 percent).
To reach those levels of centralization, hundreds of thousands of metro Atlantans would have to move inside the capital city’s limits. Can anyone honestly envision that happening?
Yet, the city of Atlanta stood to receive the highest share of T-SPLOST spending relative to the tax revenues it generated: 140 percent. Gwinnett County, to name one counter-example, was to keep just 74 cents on the dollar.
It’s true that commuters in each county stood to benefit from projects built elsewhere, but those figures were overly skewed. The Atlanta-centric nature of the project list ran counter to the way metro residents have voted with their feet. And that gave the appearance, at least, that the point was not to relieve traffic congestion where it has developed, but to turn that gravitational pull back toward the central city. Which fed into the crucial issue of trust, or lack thereof.
As an Atlanta resident myself, I don’t want to see the city continue its stagnation. But I do think its renaissance will require much more than a force-feeding of transportation funding from elsewhere. If the T-SPLOST’s defeat spurs Atlanta’s leaders to figure out what else they need to do, maybe the whole lamentable exercise was worthwhile.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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310 comments Add your comment
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
August 4th, 2012
11:01 pm
AmVet, three points:
First, success / greatness is not determined by a cold statistic like so many people being investigated / indicted, especially in politics. I don’t expect someone of your limited view of reality to understand that, but it is true, nevertheless.
Second, Kyle has asked that this thread remain populated with comments on the subject at hand, that being TSPLOST and why it might have failed. There is a thread below for you to erroneously hammer Republicans if you wish.
Third, besides having verbal skills Obama could only hope to match, Reagan did have one other quality that Obama has failed miserably at – an ability to work with the opposing side to get what he wanted / needed.
Now, you can be courteous to our host and take this discussion downstairs, or you can be your arrogant, short-tempered and miserable self and continue to violate our host’s wishes.
Oh, and your buddy next door is back. Feel free to return to the embrace of the looters and moochers you love so much.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
August 4th, 2012
11:03 pm
MHS, you more than anyone should know I don’t ever base my opinion on just one thing.
Chris Koch
August 4th, 2012
11:05 pm
Teberius: The ppl of ATL supported the TSPLOST and I think that they would support it again as a city-wide effort. Many here wish to build a different type of community than you want. Thats why I say that the differences between the city and the burgs are to great to reconcile so we should go our separate ways.
Michael H. Smith
August 4th, 2012
11:10 pm
Good lord yourself Chris Koch. Get your facts straight pal, Atalanta DeKalb and MARTA have been crying after Gwinnet dollars for years! I’m not bother or stuck like you and you and your so-called others don’t pay for my commute into Atalanta
BTW, how much money was going to address Interstate traffic? Wasn’t 52%, so keep getting stuck and bothered – hopefully behind a broken down MARTA bus. 
Keep whining over your TSPLOST loss and telling yourself how you are going to prove me and all the other OTP people wrong with your big gub’ment wit and alternative funding.
Michael H. Smith
August 4th, 2012
11:17 pm
MHS, you more than anyone should know I don’t ever base my opinion on just one thing.
Certainly hoped not and the TEA PARTY members better get off this imbalanced taxed enough already one issue over-emphasis. That could get conservatives beat at the polls.
Voters have long ago figured out we have a spending problem in this country. Our government spends too much and spends it all too often for the wrong things – as this TSPLOST would have done if it had past.
Chris Koch
August 4th, 2012
11:20 pm
Not whining at all dude, I am just saying that ur comumte is not my
problem. If u dont like it dont come downtown. You are free this is a republic stay away.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
August 4th, 2012
11:32 pm
getalife- Reagan was one of the greatest presidents of all time. Millions came to DC to pay their respects when he died. obozo is a third rate stooge.
I don’t blame you for sucking your thumb over the Tea Party.
Michael H. Smith
August 4th, 2012
11:37 pm
Uh Chris, you need a serious fact check or lay down that pipe you might be smoking.
First I don’t commute into Atlanta. Second, you don’t pay for my ride: After your insinuation that you do, I’d say you probably don’t pay for your own ride! Thirdly, you don’t tell me where to stay or go or not go or not stay, you little self-appointed authority of nothing who obviously doesn’t know what the word republic means by making such a fascist statement. I paid for part of the Interstate and roads, my right to transportation access and bought my own means of transportation to use said access for my mobility. Therefore, I’ll go where ever and when ever I want to go on public roads and stay anywhere in these United States, dude!
td
August 5th, 2012
12:08 am
getalife
August 4th, 2012
10:53 pm
td,
Reagan raised taxes several times. He would be voted out today. The party moved to the radical right. My way or the highway.Just the facts.
Reagan compromised with Tip O’Neil for the building back of our military. And so not forget that he cut taxes more then then any other President as well.
A tax increase for the military is something Tea Party people would approve of but there is no way they will approve of raising taxes for more social welfare programs.
Courtney
August 5th, 2012
1:09 am
Disagree 100%. This was a vote against the Georgia DOT.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
7:31 am
A tax increase for the military is something Tea Party people would approve of but there is no way they will approve of raising taxes for more social welfare programs.
In general terms that’s probably true. At the present there are areas where military spending should be cut. Our military is in too many other countries – over 100. TEA Party people see military welfare with the same conservative eye and heed the warning of Eisenhower:
A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction…
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.
Side-note: Doubt anyone notice Eisenhower’s paraphrase of the Reagen doctrine – peace through strength – before Reagen’s plagiary of Eisenhower.
A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
7:56 am
In short: Our region is not becoming more centralized, but less. The popular and political momentum is not toward bigger, but smaller.
Counting Brookhaven, which becomes a city of some 49,000 residents, four of Georgia’s 20 most-populous cities didn’t exist just seven years ago. All four — the others are Dunwoody, Johns Creek and Sandy Springs — are in Fulton and DeKalb counties. So are two smaller new cities, Chattahoochee Hills and Milton.
Not only is the trend toward smaller government Kyle but toward a DIFFERENT government than formerly represented these people and it is worth noting how that trend happens more often when it involves get away from the City of Atlanta governance, Mayor Reed. Perhaps you should look inward before looking outward in asking “why good honest decent people don’t trust their government, particularly your city’s government?
Julia
August 5th, 2012
8:28 am
Might I respectfully suggest then that since we are more metro than just Atlanta, that all of you who reside OPT and voted against T-SPLOST stay outside Atlanta, and not come ITP clogging our streets, highways, roads. THAT alone would solve a lot of the congestion.
yeah, I know, blah blah balh
Numbers-R-US
August 5th, 2012
8:45 am
Atlanta should implement a hefty parking tax and use the funds for rail.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
August 5th, 2012
8:54 am
“Might I respectfully suggest then that since we are more metro than just Atlanta, that all of you who reside OPT and voted against T-SPLOST stay outside Atlanta, and not come ITP clogging our streets, highways, roads. THAT alone would solve a lot of the congestion.”
Yeah, Julia, great idea.
It would also kill every restaurant and store due to a massive drop off in customers, not to mention your taxes would have to be raised exponentially to recoup the losses in sales taxes and property taxes as they drop.
Sour grapes should not be a replacement for sound thinking, Julia.
JamVet
August 5th, 2012
8:54 am
Did God die and leave tibby in charge? Or did Kyle cede his role as moderator to the serially banned one?
Either way, a great laugh to start off the morning…
Reverie
August 5th, 2012
9:02 am
Julia, if I made the suggestion you stay out of Gwinnett or Cobb I would be called a fascist or a bigot. When someone on the left makes that suggestion why should that same set of words be applied to them? Because neither words belong. You want me to stay home? No problem. Atlantas ugly mess of a city does not appeal to me. Personally I think we should decentralize the region even more, until the center collapses under the weight of its own tax burden and the corruption of its politics. I would prefer not to send my money ITP until the systemic rot of the city is addressed by those that live there. If you don’t believe me consider this. While the City of Atlanta will nott fix their sewage treatment plant, they discharge untreated and under-treated filth into the Chattahoochee River every day of the year. This problem has been identified for over 20 years yet it isn’t fixed. Yet at the same time the city has found money to build parks, add infrastructure such as roads, sidewalks and more sewage lines, knowing full well those people could not be accommodated with even the basic sanitary needs. Do you know who pays that price? The poor people living close to the sewage plant and every single person living down stream. The smell is horrendous. The water of the river is fetid and foul, all because Atlanta will not address its problems. Do you want me to even think of traveling to the city? No problem. Once they get to the point I believe they have made the difficult decisions to address their needs I would consider helping them address their dreams.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
August 5th, 2012
9:02 am
No, AmVet, but “tibby” just follows the rules. Unlike you who break them at every turn and drag every discussion down to a third-grade level with your one-note diatribes against a school of thought that you will never understand due to your petty hatred.
Numbers-R-US
August 5th, 2012
9:07 am
Will you people make up your minds. Are people ITP left-wingers and those OTP the right-wingers or is it a blend or vice versa?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
August 5th, 2012
9:09 am
Oh, and AmVet?
Banned once. On MY terms.
Yet another example of your being wrong in virtually everything you post.
middle of the road
August 5th, 2012
9:25 am
I have said it elsewhere: most pollss show the one major thing that caused a lot of people to vote NO was the Ga 400 toll. Even Gov. Deal realized it and tried to correct it too late. You can’t correct someone else’s lie by making a statement that probably will be a lie in itself. Gov. Deal should have abolished SRTA and removed the Ga 400 tolls on the first day of his administration. Then T-SPLOST might have had a fighting chance. If you had also taken out MARTA funding and the Beltline, it most likely would have passed. But the the supporters would not have gotten what the really wanted from the tax – more money to subsidize Atlanta projects that do NOT reduce congestion.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
9:26 am
Julia, if I made the suggestion you stay out of Gwinnett or Cobb I would be called a fascist or a bigot.
Bigot may not hold water Reverie but fascist definitely fits the billing. In Republics rights are protect by the force of law, the freedom to come and go as an individual chooses is one of our rights and only FASCISTS desire to take or RESTRICT the rights of others such as Comrade Julie
Oh and by the way, Comrade Julie and her Comrade ilk, each one of you socialist are free to come to Gwinnett anytime you want, if you have the means whereby to do it. We will be glad to have you, especially if you spend some of that capitalist money you guys probably got through obumer’s redistribution. We”ll appreciate doing business with you. We have a local SPLOST that has built schools and roads for years.
middle of the road
August 5th, 2012
9:30 am
One thing is for sure – the supporters who lost sure sound like spoiled rotten brats who didn’t get their way so they are pouting.
You know, the supporters kept saying that the TSPLOST was only for ten years, then it ends by law. Why didn’t they write that more solidly into the law – say that after this ten years, no further SPLOSTS could be proferred for another ten years. But no, that is not what they want. They knew going in that they would ask for TSPLOST II in ten years – that tax would NEVER end.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
9:34 am
Unlike you who break them at every turn and drag every discussion down to a third-grade level with your one-note diatribes against a school of thought that you will never understand due to your petty hatred.
Gee You are being very generous with that social promotion by grading on a curve, Tiberius.
middle of the road
August 5th, 2012
9:35 am
Oh, and for those who want a toll on us suburbanites coming into Atlanta – that works both ways – I think we should establish a toll so you pay every time you leave the city.
Seriously, the bad thing about tolls is that a lot of the toll money collected goes to pay for the collection – those people who sit in those booths. Add in the time that everone has to slow down and stop to pay a toll (I am talking those who don’t have electronic toll pay). Toll booths are inefficient, but they are a targeted tax. I didn’t mind paying that toll to ride on 400 – I DID mind when the toll period expired, they kept the tolls to provide revenue for other things.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
9:37 am
They knew going in that they would ask for TSPLOST II in ten years – that tax would NEVER end.
They way the wording on the ballot read I’d agree they left themselves an out to extend this tax without going back to the voters for approval.
Numbers-R-US
August 5th, 2012
9:44 am
I think we should establish a toll so you pay every time you leave the city.
I like that. Toll the suburbanites coming and going and then tax them for parking while in the city. Sort of like Georgia 400 on steroids. Who needs TSPLOST with a plan like that. And the good thing about it is that it only collects from the users of the roads and parking spaces.
Thomas
August 5th, 2012
9:48 am
Toll the suburbanites coming and going and then tax them for parking while in the city.
Unfortunately, in the last 20 years, there isn’t much to entice someone to the city. You may be able to raise enough money for a pothole or two.
Kasim Reed is intelligent, hard working, and honest- he has a lot of work to do.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
August 5th, 2012
9:49 am
Tiberius – Kyle has left the blog open to such abuses. Some people know that they can skirt the rules, such as name calling, in an attempt to incite others into pointless back and forths that result in the entire blog being shut down. At which point, the instigator goes back his home base blog and thumps his chest like some psychotic triumphant about getting this blog put in moderation. It’s all there for everyone to see.
But this is Kyle’s choice, so it is better just to ignore the defectives. Soon enough they’ll have to scream to get noticed and they’ll get booted for it.
Liberalism is a mental disorder, Conservatism is a cult
August 5th, 2012
9:54 am
“Well, yeah, they do… I mean, that’s kind of the way socialism usually works, by using other people’s money to pay for social welfare like MARTA, the government owned means of transportation, until it runs out money and they have no more money to confiscate from other people.”
I’m curious, who owns, builds and maintains the roadway system that you drive on? And if its all so wonderful why is 85 and so many other roadways so WOEFULLY inadequate? I suppose it is only considered an investment when it’s in your neighborhood.
And for thousandth time Marta IS NOT A PART OF THE CITY OF ATLANTA. It is a separate entity created by the state legislature. By the way, with Gwinnett’s majority minority population, is only matter of time before it is joined with Marta in some form because they don’t see transportation as an us vs them proposition.
Numbers-R-US
August 5th, 2012
9:58 am
Unfortunately, in the last 20 years, there isn’t much to entice someone to the city.
In other words, those traffic jams are not real. Interesting approach to passing the time, idling.
middle of the road
August 5th, 2012
10:08 am
“Atlanta should implement a hefty parking tax and use the funds for rail”
Go ahead – we suburbanites will take that into account if we think about coming to Atlanta for a concert, a restaurant, etc – maybe we will just take our business else where. Atlanta restaurant owners – take heed.
middle of the road
August 5th, 2012
10:10 am
“with Gwinnett’s majority minority population, is only matter of time before it is joined with Marta in some form ”
So there is some truth to what MARTA really stands for?
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
10:30 am
By the way, with Gwinnett’s majority minority population, is only matter of time before it is joined with Marta in some form because they don’t see transportation as an us vs them proposition.
By the way, Gwinnett’s so-called majority minority population doesn’t want to pay the tax in order to join MARTA and MARTA is Government transportation agency that Atlanta has a very big part of in providing a means of transportation.
Get your facts straight.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
10:42 am
Toll the suburbanites coming and going and then tax them for parking while in the city.
Yeah
To your obvious chagrin that nut-job idea was floated about a couple of times by a few of your Atlanta City Council members, until they figured out the City would lose far more when businesses left the City than it could ever possibly gain by imposing such fees or taxes.
Then Mayor Franklin fired a volley across our Gwinnett bow making the same kind of idiotic threat until Commission Chairman Wayne Hill made it known to her that we can do the same thing to all those people whose car tags read Fulton and Dekalb that we see in our county on a daily bases. Needless to say the Mayor Franklin soon got her brains back in her head and a good case of lockjaw thereafter.
Road Scholar
August 5th, 2012
10:45 am
“To reach those levels of centralization, hundreds of thousands of metro Atlantans would have to move inside the capital city’s limits. Can anyone honestly envision that happening?”
Open your eyes. Look at the intown development, esp as it continues to rebound faster than the suburbs. Prices in the suburbs have declined faster with more bankruptcies than intown and to a larger extent the building industry is growing faster intown. Down the road in one development they have started/are finishing 6 over $1M dollar homes w/3 additional lots sold. IN ONE DEVELOPMENT! Land is being cleared for more “intown” style development. Whats happening to the “pipe farms” (areas which began development but have only pipes at house sites sticking up!) in the burbs? The “northern arc” of stable house prices around the northern perimeter is gaining densities and residents. How about the burbs?
Price of gas going up! No real transportation investment being made? Another flood of burbs residents moving toward the central core or to me closer to the job centers? You bethca!
Atlanta is one of the only cities that is not restricted by natural features…ocean, mountains, swamps, etc. That allows sprawl and dilution of services at an initial lower costs, but we are paying for it now…and in the future…aren’t we?
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
10:52 am
Nope!
Numbers-R-US
August 5th, 2012
11:08 am
Sounds like some of the bloggers expect to get everything for nothing. Then again, users of Ga 400 still pay coming and going and people still pay for a parking space and some people even pay for that peach pass so I think if there were more lanes subjected to that peach pass and if there were taxes associated with those parking spaces, the people would still come. The key difference being that they would get the privilege of funding alternative transportation if new tolls and parking taxes were implemented and the funds were dedicated to rail, for example. Are you reading this, Governor Deal and Mayor Reed. Let’s get this show on the road.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
11:11 am
Our Governor hasn’t left himself much wiggle room after this defeat though he’s trying to distance himself some from the TSPLOST he openly supported. You lost alot of political capital on this one Mr. Deal, you may even lose re-election because of it. Then again slamming doors shut is a good way to reenforce a sense of belligerence in the eyes of voters. There is a big difference between being headstrong and being plain stubborn. I strongly suggest you not burn your bridges on reconsideration of a redesigned plan for voters to approve, Governor.
Otherwise your alternatives are very limited and fortunately one of them is exactly what I’ve want from years back: Statewide private public mass transportation partnership (P3) in lieu of a regional MARTA.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
11:15 am
Sounds like some of the bloggers expect to get everything for nothing.
Sounds more like the OTP bloggers expect to get nothing from paying for everything.
Look at who got what out of that plan my friend, it only added insult to the injury of GA 400.
Reverie
August 5th, 2012
11:18 am
I actually want to see these problems fixed. I don’t think Atlanta has the political will to make far-sighted choices. I love the Beltway concept and would love to see it implemented. I just don’t believe it needs to be paid for from the public treasury. While it looks elegant, it has to sustain itself. I would favor the funding of the maintenance of the green space but not the development of the commercial or residential. I favor the infrastructure improvements being Shouldered by the taxpayer provided it is improvements from the beginning to the end of the water cycle. I don’t hate Atlanta. I lament Atlanta and what the city has become. Mostly, the name calling and assertions of bigotry made by Atlanta supporters is proof enough that this is the city to busy TO MOVE BEYOND hate. When the city and its supporters move beyond a sense of entitlement, beyond the endless dependence upon others, beyond being stuck in a pit of anger and retribution toward people that may be descendants of, but are not actually the people that supported slavery or Jim Crow. Only then can we come together and make a difference in each others lives. The Civil Rights movement has been an important part of our shared lives but is tragically the largest anchor around some of our souls.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
11:21 am
I think if there were more lanes subjected to that peach pass and if there were taxes associated with those parking spaces, the people would still come.
Read my 10:42 am . Get ready OTP counties to receive all the re-locating businesses.
Michael H. Smith
August 5th, 2012
11:48 am
By the way, Mr. and Mrs. Atlanta Corporation, Gwinnett County welcomes you with open arms toll free and with plenty of parking spaces at no cost to you and yours.
Numbers-R-US
August 5th, 2012
11:49 am
Sounds more like the OTP bloggers expect to get nothing from paying for everything.
“Everything” covers a lot of ground. I’d have to say “bull” to that one.
middle of the road
August 5th, 2012
11:56 am
“By the way, Mr. and Mrs. Atlanta Corporation, Gwinnett County welcomes you with open arms toll free and with plenty of parking spaces at no cost to you and yours.”
And we don’t expect you to subsidize the health care for the poor with your property tax to Grady, nor do we expect you to (again) subsidize the poor by contributing 1% of sales tax to keeping their fares low.
middle of the road
August 5th, 2012
11:57 am
And we don’t penalize you for 100 years of neglect on our sewer system.
Sue Ellen Ewing
August 5th, 2012
12:02 pm
To the You Are Joking Right? comment – I couldn’t have said it better. Kudos to you for hitting the nail on the head as my Daddy used to say.
middle of the road
August 5th, 2012
12:05 pm
nor do we expect you to (again) subsidize the poor by contributing 1% of sales tax to keeping their MARTA fares low
middle of the road
August 5th, 2012
12:08 pm
Atlanta has a “steal from the rich (and middle class) and give to the poor” mentality”. It sounds good when it is Robin Hood, but it gets a little old when the poor sit around all day, pulling in welfare checks, doing food stamp fraud, and not getting jobs and working.
getalife
August 5th, 2012
12:17 pm
You are a blind partisan cons so I know you take the gop’s word for it but do you understand why the majority of the Americans people will not take the gop’s word for it on willie robme’s taxes.
No deflection in your answer please.