2012 Tuesday: Millions of dollars might not buy a T-SPLOST
Each month, Barack Obama and Mitt Romney — and their respective parties and PACs — report their fund-raising totals. One result is a monthly debate about the propriety of big money in politics, and many participants in that debate begin with the apparent assumption that money is everything in an election.
On the local level, however, we are watching the final days of a campaign in which a gilt Goliath appears mortally wounded by a dollar-poor David. Yes, I’m talking about the T-SPLOST.
The pro-tax campaign yesterday finally released its financial statements (on the last day of its past-due grace period), and it shows pretty much what we all expected: a campaign that has had millions of dollars to persuade voters to tax themselves $7.2 billion during the next 10 years to fund transportation. Here’s how the AJC summarized the standing of the pro- and anti-tax groups:
Citizens for Transportation Mobility — the political action committee pushing the July 31 transportation referendum in metro Atlanta — took in $6.5 million from spring 2011 through July 16, according to a campaign finance report filed Monday. Records show the group dramatically outraised opponents of the tax increase: The Transportation Leadership Coalition, which is fighting the referendum, raised $14,418.
(Full disclosure: Cox Enterprises, parent company of the AJC, donated $250,000 to the pro-tax campaign.)
That’s a 450-to-1 financial advantage for the pro-tax side, which is why virtually all the advertising you see about next week’s referendum is in support of the tax. The tax has the backing of the governor, the mayor of Atlanta and most other local and state elected officials in the 10-county region. It has the research apparatus of governmental and quasi-governmental agencies behind it. It has the area’s major businesses making not-so-subtle suggestions to their employees that they should vote for it.
And yet, according to every recent opinion poll, it’s trailing. In all but the one done for the pro-tax campaign itself, it’s trailing badly. In all that have measured support for the tax over time, that support has fallen by double-digits.
What gives?
For starters, this campaign shows once again the effectiveness of real grassroots organizations, and their ability to tap into large networks of passionate supporters at little or no cost. When the Tea Party Patriots, NAACP and Sierra Club all decide to oppose something, their members tend to be much more firmly committed to that stance than are people swayed by advertising or political endorsements.
We must also acknowledge that any effort to increase taxes amid a still-stagnant economy is something of an uphill climb, even when the purported payoff — easier commutes — affects many people’s everyday lives. That said, the most believable poll two months ago was not one that showed the tax ahead or behind by double-digits, but the one that showed it at 42 percent for and 45 percent against, with the rest of the people undecided. Given the nature of Atlanta’s transportation needs, the referendum was bound to be close despite the economy and the low level of trust in government when it comes to transportation. (And, for the record, I still think it will be fairly very close in the end: single-digits either way.)
But the most important factor — and really the only way this campaign’s financing and evolution are similar to the presidential race — is the ability of those proposing a change to make their case clearly and effectively. Barack Obama’s approval ratings may still be mediocre, but all the money in the world won’t help Mitt Romney if he can’t convince the American people he is suitable alternative. Likewise, traffic in Atlanta may be exasperating for a lot of people, but all the money in the world won’t help the folks at Untie Atlanta if they don’t have a credible pitch about how the tax revenues will help reduce traffic congestion.
And that’s where I think the referendum is in danger of failing.
The message from the pro-tax side has gone something like this:
1. Traffic is bad.
2. Look, there are a lot of projects!
3. In the end, we have to do something.
While hardly anyone disputes Nos. 1 and 3, a great deal of people doubt No. 2 is an adequate bridge between them. To be honest, the pro-tax side has hardly tried to convince the doubters otherwise. It’s simply harped even more on Nos. 1 and 3.
That means there’s no clear, coherent message about how the T-SPLOST projects will help the region today, from the urban core to the suburbs. There is no consistent narrative about how the projects work together in a specific corridor or chokepoint. To the degree the message is something other than “trust us; it’ll work,” the message is the map with 157 projects scattered across it. And that map has become a regional Rorschach test that leaves it to individuals to see future relief or wasted money.
In large part, that’s the fault of the people who put the list together, not the ones now tasked with selling it to the public. But however the blame is eventually assigned if the referendum does indeed fail, that’s the central failure of the T-SPLOST — and the crucial task for whoever has to pick up the pieces if Plan B becomes necessary.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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403 comments Add your comment
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
July 24th, 2012
9:26 am
Full disclosure: Cox Enterprises, parent company of the AJC, donated $250,000 to the pro-tax campaign.
Looks like that 250K got squandered.
Just like the tax money would be.
Slick Rick
July 24th, 2012
9:33 am
Gee, Kyle, the (probable) triumph of big $$ over little $$. In modern day ‘Merica, who woulda thunk it possible? Duh!
Slick Rick
July 24th, 2012
9:34 am
I’ll add: you’re a believer in the propriety of Citizens United, right? Hey, corporations are people too, you know. We reap what we sow.
Too much money involved, let the graft and corruption begin
July 24th, 2012
9:35 am
I hope this thing fails miserably. There is simply too much money at stake and too many projects on the list. The corruption would be epic. Though if I were a road builder or a tractor dealer, I would want it to pass too….because they are the ones who are going to make billions. The politicians can’t be trusted with the money and it’s not a penny added to the sale of something. It’s at least a 12.5% increase or higher depending on what county one lives in. Look at what happened with the 400 Toll Roads….just last week the governeor decided that it’s time to cancel the tolls in December of next year….how conveneint, even though the bonds have been paid off since 10′. If this thing passes, they will never get rid of the tax and they will end up asking for more money! They need to come up with a better plan and make do with what they have like the rest of us.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
July 24th, 2012
9:39 am
Gee, Kyle, the (probable) triumph of big $$ over little $$. In modern day ‘Merica, who woulda thunk it possible? Duh!
I don’t know, Rick, I think you may want to read the article. Pro tax spent 6.5 million while anti tax spent 14K. Pro tax is currently losing.
Darwin
July 24th, 2012
9:43 am
Wouldn’t raising the gas tax be more equitable? Heavy users of the roads would pay a more proportionate share of the infrastructure needs. Utilizing a sales tax unfairly targets the low income and others who don’t drive much, carpool or use public transportation.
Old Timer
July 24th, 2012
9:50 am
Silk Stocking Committees can’t see the woods for the trees sometimes. They divided the state in county groups with basically a threat–if it pasess in your group you get more money for transportation, if it doesn’t you will basically pay a penality. Then only the Atlanta area gets all the publicity and push in the press and on TV when It affects the WHOLE state.
A Realist
July 24th, 2012
9:55 am
It is truly amazing how half truth’s, outright lies and loudness can outdo lots of money.
Just amazing…..
Malthusian way
July 24th, 2012
9:58 am
Unbelievable Regressive Tax…….on the poor “for big business”. Where’s the “Occupy the Gold Dome” crowd now?
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
10:04 am
“Cox Enterprises, parent company of the AJC, donated $250,000 to the pro-tax campaign.”
And like the AJC, their efforts are a failure.
BW
July 24th, 2012
10:08 am
Kyle
Do you believe that a real comprehensive list was not proposed due to final price tag? As some have noted, there are a lot of studies for congestion relief built in but the actual project is not on the agenda in this T-Splost. I believe that ARC Plan 2040 suggests that the full price tag for comprehensive transit and road build-out and/or relief would be $126 billion (see page 80 of the link: http://documents.atlantaregional.com/plan2040/docs/tp_PLAN2040RTP_072711.pdf). Would voters stomach a non-partisan plan like this and allow the legislature to raise the gas tax and put to the referendum all non road components?
zeke
July 24th, 2012
10:09 am
You got to think that with all the millions spent to promote this supposed great plan that it is not very reasonable or intelligent in the projects or agenda! If it was, they would not have to spend a single dollar to promote it! Look at the donors like Matthews, and others who stand to make millions if not billions on this list of boondoggles! The trains and buses, the main agenda, DO NOTHING TO RELIEVE CONGESTION! They like marta are not convenient, efficient, safe, and are very expensive! And, like marta, once they are built they will never support their own operations and will have to be forever subsidized by taxpayers!
VOTE NO!!!!
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
10:09 am
Slick Rick @ 9:33: Apparently you misread. We’re talking about the probable triumph of little $$ over big $$.
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
10:12 am
Too much money @ 9:35: I haven’t heard anyone say the new bonds, the ones that weren’t issued until December 2010, have been paid off since 2010. Perhaps you mean the previous ones. I don’t fault Deal for the bonds that were issued a month before he took office.
ByteMe
July 24th, 2012
10:12 am
All good reasons, Kyle, but here’s one you forgot:
No amount of money in the world will convince people to take their medicine if they don’t want to.
The bigger problem is that the politicians who are ok with stalling Atlanta in traffic while building roads to nowhere down near Albany will use the vote to “prove” that the region doesn’t need or want a real traffic solution.
TGT
July 24th, 2012
10:18 am
Good info Kyle. Virtually EVERY personal (or impersonal) contact I’ve had concerning T-SPLOST (and I have been significantly involved in the T-SPLOST campaign) has been with someone that is against it. Whether it is a face-to-face encounter, blog post, or Facebook exchange, the OVERWHELMING consensus is against it. (I’m in the GA Mountains Region.)
Grasshopper
July 24th, 2012
10:19 am
“For starters, this campaign shows once again the effectiveness of real grassroots organizations, and their ability to tap into large networks of passionate supporters at little or no cost.”
I don’t know that this statement applies so much in the TSplost debate Kyle.
I, and most everyone I know, have been against this tax since the beginning. No organization called me to get my vote against the tax; I have seen no signs or ads against the tax; there have been no commercials that I am aware of. No organized opposition – just people sick of taxes. No multi-million $$ campaign needed to know that.
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
10:21 am
BW @ 10:08: I’m not suggesting they could have solved all our problems with $7.2B. What I am suggesting is that they could have gone about it in a more coordinated way than “everybody pick 10 projects” and it would have been easier to sell to the public as an orderly step in the right direction. They appear to have believed instead it would be easier to sell if everyone could point to a few projects close to home.
My guess is that trust is too low for the public to believe everything on a $126B list is truly necessary. Heck, it seems a $7.2B list is going to be voted down as including too many unnecessary items.
BlahBlahBlah
July 24th, 2012
10:23 am
Build roads with gas taxes. Let the City of Atlanta (or the respective counties) raise their own taxes or issue bonds to build the Beltline. I’d like to see the state take over MARTA and force Cobb, Gwinnett etc. to allow expansion. No reason MARTA should go NE to Mall of Ga., north to at least Peachtree Pkwy., NW up to Town Center, etc.
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
10:26 am
ByteMe @ 10:12: Congressional district balancing is required by Georgia law. That explains most of the “roads to nowhere” you dislike. We could try to change the law, but most of the people who benefit from those roads are unaware they live in “nowhere” — and their votes are still needed on other issues. So I doubt that will happen anytime soon.
Our Government Lies to Us & Wastes Our Money!
July 24th, 2012
10:26 am
Kyle,
Will your left-wing co-workers at the AJC be too busy boycotting & protesting Chick-fil-A to vote on this ridiculous T-SPLOST next Tuesday?
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
10:28 am
Grasshopper @ 10:19: We will have to wait and see how the tax fares in various areas, but if it goes down in flames in south DeKalb and various intown neighborhoods, I think we can safely say the Sierra Club and NAACP had a big impact on the vote because of their stances.
Tea partiers might well have been inclined to oppose it from the get-go.
BW
July 24th, 2012
10:32 am
I don’t really see anyway to actually resolve this. If any transit is on the list under MARTA then most suburbanities will vote no while if too little is on the list Fulton and Dekalb will vote no. It seems to be a no win scenario in the quest to relieve congestion….it’ll be interesting to see what happens after this vote goes down. Depopulation of the region as some posters suggest as a solution would be catastrophic for all of Georgia.
K Mom
July 24th, 2012
10:37 am
Kyle,
I know you are on a different topic today, but I need you to help me see people being reasonable on the conservative side. I am starting to hear something that literally makes me ill. I am hearing people on radio shows, seeing them on blogs, and seeing elected officials essentially blaming the victims of last weeks attacks. They are saying if the people in the movie theater had been carrying guns, none of it would have happened. I just heard a young person on a radio show say that it is everyones civic responsibility to bare arms and if those people had done so, they would have taken this guy out! Have I woken up in some alternate universe?
Too much money involved, let the graft and corruption begin
July 24th, 2012
10:38 am
Hey Kyle, I meant the previous bonds had been paid off….I don’t fault Deal for what happened before he took office either. It was funny to me that they decided to kill the toll next year though
I just hope it doesn’t pass. I feel like people are really distrusting of politicians right now and this thing is too big and too ambitious.
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
10:39 am
Well, it seems to me that if all these corporations can get together and raise $6.5 million in a little over a year, they could fund their own transporation projects by continuing to do the same thing over the next 10 years all without costing the taxpayers another penny. Since they have failed to be good stewards over our money in the past though, it shouldn’t surprise me that they have wasted almost the full $6.5 million on advertising to get more of our money… IJS
Aquagirl
July 24th, 2012
10:41 am
they could have gone about it in a more coordinated way than “everybody pick 10 projects” and it would have been easier to sell to the public as an orderly step in the right direction.
Handing the public a list creates a couple million self-appointed transportation experts so a list in any form will inevitably fail. Republicans have figured out a way to flatter the voters and stay in office by letting the populace shoot themselves in the foot. I have to hand it to ‘em, that’s pretty smart. On the other hand outsmarting the Land of the Teanuts isn’t rocket science.
JDW
July 24th, 2012
10:42 am
TSPLOST was an abdication of responsibility by the legislature from the beginning. Instead of doing their job they tossed the problem of creating a reasonable plan to a collection of dysfunctional committees that guaranteed a poor project list. Then they tossed all that to the electorate to fund with a region wide sales tax.
All this so our esteemed legislators did not have to actually do their job…of course the problem is they will still not do their job. Best case they will go through the same dysfunctional process to create a new list to pitch over the transom.
Meanwhile the local economy will continue on its 10 year march down the road of oblivion.
JF McNamara
July 24th, 2012
10:44 am
People need to understand that you sometimes have to pay for what you want. If not, you end up with a crumbling pile of nothing and left behind by those who chose to invest in their future. This isn’t government waste. There is a clearly defined list of what your money is buying.
I commute and I want better traffic. The list could certainly be better, but there are a few things that will help me directly and appear worthwhile, so I’m probably going to vote for it.
JDW
July 24th, 2012
10:45 am
@cents…” they could fund their own transporation projects by continuing to do the same thing over the next 10 years”
Might want to check your math…$6.5 million over 10 years is 65 million. Less than 1 percent of the funding needed.
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
10:46 am
Aquagirl @ 10:41: “Handing the public a list creates a couple million self-appointed transportation experts so a list in any form will inevitably fail.”
So why do other SPLOSTs routinely pass in this region?
curious
July 24th, 2012
10:47 am
Suppose the public’s overall unhappiness with the way politicans mange money has any part of the possibility of this not passing?
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
10:47 am
JF @ 10:44: “People need to understand that you sometimes have to pay for what you want.”
I think the problem, if the referendum fails, is the list didn’t represent what most people “want.”
tiredofIT
July 24th, 2012
10:53 am
Why isn’t the Tea Party up in arms about this possible new tax. If the businesses want it they are free to write a check to pay for it.
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
10:54 am
@ Slick Rick: I’ve taken down those comments, and the “sugar plum” one by you that seems to have started it.
Slick Rick
July 24th, 2012
10:58 am
Test
Dirty Dawg
July 24th, 2012
10:58 am
What this says Kyle is that you and your fellow members of the right-wing echo chamber have succeeded in turning this state into just another bunch of cynically selfish drones incapable of an optimistic, progressive thought or act. We ought to change the nickname to the Just Say No state.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
10:59 am
The only way to solve traffic problems is to burn Atlanta to ground, start over and build it on a grid system like NYC. Only then will public transportation ever work. Cities that are spread out like Atlanta will always have problems. No amount of money can solve this issue.
Slick Rick
July 24th, 2012
10:59 am
Started what, Kyle? I was responding directly to you. Nothing I said was in any way directed at anyone else. “Sugar plum” is an expression, not a slur, no? Seems like selective application of your very own rules by you.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
10:59 am
“What this says Kyle is that you and your fellow members of the right-wing echo chamber have succeeded in turning this state into just another bunch of cynically selfish drones incapable of an optimistic, progressive thought or act. ”
Yeah, that’s it. You really nailed it there, Dawg.
MannyT
July 24th, 2012
11:00 am
The big money people could have come up with a better narrative about the benefits of their project list. I could see a movie that showed a metro region with better moving traffic with all their projects, then zap out the projects and have an old west, abandoned town look.
I do wonder why politicians loathe to step up and to make decisions. There is enough of a statewide majority to pass transportation laws, projects, taxes, etc. if they really wanted it done. SPLOSTS seem to be the easy way out to say, the politicians didn’t raise taxes, the people did.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
11:00 am
“Wouldn’t raising the gas tax be more equitable? Heavy users of the roads would pay a more proportionate share of the infrastructure needs.”
No, just look at Chicago. HIghest gas prices in the country and they still have terrible traffic problems.
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
11:02 am
Slick Rick: I don’t know what “sugar plum” means to you or anyone else. But it was addressed first to I Report, who responded with the “moonbat” comment. Thus all the relevant comments have been taken down.
GFY
July 24th, 2012
11:02 am
Why don’t voters believe that TSPLOST will solve all of the traffic problems. Just look at what a wonderful job SPLOST (Special Local Option Sales Tax) did to get all those kids out of trailers and into wonderful school buildings. Just look at how that improved education in Georgia…LOL.
Jose
July 24th, 2012
11:03 am
does everyone understand that this is a FRONTDOOR MARTA tax that they want everyone to pay for whether you use it or not……………..
i recall a GREEN AMENDMENT in the ZELL MILLER govenorship that was to save trees but it turned out to be a tax break for corporate landowners who didnt want to pay timber tax……. small counties and taxpayers had to make up the difference
if you have to sell it
we dont want it
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
11:03 am
“Barack Obama’s approval ratings may still be mediocre, but all the money in the world won’t help Mitt Romney if he can’t convince the American people he is suitable alternative.”
Mitt Romney: “Are you happy with 8.2% unemployment and a president who said small business owners didn’t build their business?”
Done. All Mitt has to do is nail Obama over and over again with that charge and he wins.
Poll: Romney preferred over Obama to handle the economy
WASHINGTON – Despite concerted Democratic attacks on his business record, Republican challenger Mitt Romney scores a significant advantage over President Obama when it comes to managing the economy, reducing the federal budget deficit and creating jobs, a national USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds.
Grasshopper
July 24th, 2012
11:04 am
Aquagirl and Dirty Dawg,
Can you please provide links and iformation about all of the comprehensive transportation plans that Democrats proposed while they ran the state? I’m sure there are at least two of them.
GFY
July 24th, 2012
11:04 am
Guess I am a cynically selfish drone who likes to keep my 1 cent on every dollar spent…….
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
11:04 am
Darwin: How do you propose to get hybrid and electric car owners to pay their fair share? I agree on the truck issue and have advocated in raising the gas tax.
To Much Money: Are you going to vote out ALL incumbents? Ya know, term limits?
Zeke: Are you against capitalism? Jobs? Ya know, businesses are in business to make a profit and to expand?
Kyle: What was the money used to pay off the bonds early slated for originally (including the future money to be collected)?
Also, state law states that 70% of the transportation gas tax money is distributed evenly over the Congressional Districts. The rural areas (120 out of 160 counties/COA) , while not having more voters, have more legislators! Also most of the GDOT debt is for bonds in the GRIP system- 4 laning rural state routes- that amounts to about $400K a year out of a approx 2 B yearly budget.
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
11:05 am
Logic @ 11:03: I’m not sure that will suffice for Romney. If it would, he would be up big in the polls right now. He has to prove himself as a credible alternative first. He’s got three months.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
11:06 am
” On the other hand outsmarting the Land of the Teanuts isn’t rocket science.”
Delta is ready when you are.
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
11:08 am
It may just pass.
Slick Rick
July 24th, 2012
11:08 am
A little edumacation for the edumacationally challenged: a “sugar plum” is a small round piece of sugary candy; in common usage as applied to an individual it indicates affection, good spirit or lightheartedness.
Thusly, it is not derogatory in any way, and certainly infinitely less so than “clown” or “moonbat.” I’ve long suspected Kyle of favoring those with whom he is more ideologically inclined and he has just now proven this to be true.
Aquagirl
July 24th, 2012
11:08 am
So why do other SPLOSTs routinely pass in this region?
For starters most are county, not region wide. For instance a Cobb SPLOST is much easier because people aren’t screaming about a park for “those people” 50 miles away.
A Realist
July 24th, 2012
11:09 am
How about this?
If the referendum fails – institute a new $1 toll on GA400 that will help pay for an extension of MARTA up to Windward Pkwy?
….naaah…
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
11:10 am
Road @ 11:04: My understanding is the revenues have continued to come in at or above projections, while the current and future payments have decreased. So there’s no other money being used. I had the same thought at first.
And it’s not that they have “more legislators”: Legislative districts have to be within a very small margin of one another (1%, off the top of my head), and they were just redrawn. It’s just that they have enough legislators — legislators who were Democrats when Democrats were in charge, and Republicans now that the GOP’s in charge — to be useful to the leadership.
Btw, congressional districts are drawn to be equal, within one single voter of one another, so it’s not really the case that congressional balancing takes money away from a large population and gives it to a smaller one. It is true, however, that needs for the funding may be unequal even among equal populations.
Jose
July 24th, 2012
11:11 am
if fulton, dekalb and city of atlanta need to get projects done……….. why don’t they raise the taxes in their counties? why should other counties subsidize them?
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
11:13 am
Even if the math is off, the point is the same; $6.5 million would have gone a long to way to funding projects that these businesses believe would help their bottom line. Instead, every five seconds on television I have to be subjected to commercials about why little Timmy’s mother is stuck in traffic and can’t pick him up for baseball practice. I also wonder how much of that $7 billion will go to overhead and waste as it has with projects in the past. Maybe if politicians spent less time campaigning, raising money for campaigning and lining their own pockets, we would have the funds neccesary to make changes in transportation.
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
11:14 am
Slick Rick: Your comment was complete without it, and your tone didn’t exactly connote “affection, good spirit or lightheartedness.” Any more discussion on this point can be handled via email. Otherwise, it’s a needless distraction from the topic at hand.
ByteMe
July 24th, 2012
11:14 am
So why do other SPLOSTs routinely pass in this region?
For starters most are county, not region wide.
Near as I can tell, it’s not “most”, but “all”. Smaller geographic space, fewer attempts to play one group off another.
Shrink the “region” to include only Fulton, Dekalb, Clayton, Cobb, and Gwinnett and the results change. Add in the exurbs who have less vested interest in a vibrant city center and you get results that reflect that population’s diverse interests.
Dialing Plan B now….
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
11:15 am
Aquagirl @ 11:08: I tend to agree with the problem being about the design of the entire process. My point was simply that having a list doesn’t necessarily doom a SPLOST, because SPLOSTs always have lists and they almost always pass.
JDW
July 24th, 2012
11:16 am
@kyle…”So why do other SPLOSTs routinely pass in this region?”
Pretty good question and one that should be considered. Maybe it’s too much information. Aren’t the other SPLOSTS less defined…say for education infrastructure rather than a specific list.
ByteMe
July 24th, 2012
11:16 am
If the referendum fails – institute a new $1 toll on GA400 that will help pay for an extension of MARTA up to Windward Pkwy?
I want a $2 toll on any high-speed road leading into Fulton or Dekalb with the money earmarked for transit only. It needs to be nearly the cost of a ticket on MARTA.
Let the suburbs stall while the inner city rocks. Then they’ll change their tune.
dc
July 24th, 2012
11:16 am
Kyle, IMO, other splosts get approved because they are “in one county”. The idea of paying a tax for the Atlanta beltline, Marta, and streetcar line is galling to suburbanites. And paying for roads is galling to a set of intown folks.
I had no issue voting for gwinnett parks to be built, or schools. But wouldn’t have voted for it if we were combined w/ another county, and then it was left up to “backroom negotiations” as to which county got the proceeds. And since pretty much every one of these projects will cost way more than the estimate (duh….as with all major projects), there will end up being a number of them that get delayed or killed. I have no faith in the group that will make these decisions.
ByteMe
July 24th, 2012
11:17 am
Aren’t the other SPLOSTS less defined…say for education infrastructure rather than a specific list.
No. The E-SPLOSTS specify the schools to receive the money and the projects to be done with it.
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
11:18 am
ByteMe @ 11:14: I tend to agree the geography will change in Plan B. And if it fails in other regions, I’d take a long, hard look at letting a subdivision of this region and a subdivision of others team up to form their own region. I’m thinking in particular of a region with Bartow/Paulding/Cherokee — and maybe even Cobb and/or Douglas (maybe not).
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
11:19 am
How about , if the Tsplost does not pass in certain counties/areas, they do not get funding for transportation in their area….I mean since they see no need…? I know that is childish, but so is some of the anti rhetoric concerning me, me , me…and I don’t trust anybody (Heck you voted for these fools!) I know they pay the gas tax, but w/o needs being addressed for the region…
Oh and let’s close down the express bus program ,a hit for the outlying counties, and MARTA. Let all those on crowded GRTA /CCT buses and MARTA trains get in their cars and let’s see how bad congestion can get! I 285 at I20, I85, and I75- pack a lunch…and dinner…just do not drink.. remember there are no bathrooms while you wait. Oh and you may as well suck on a tailpipe as it relates to pollution the result of added congestion. Do you or your kids have respiratory problems?
Jose
July 24th, 2012
11:20 am
t-splost logic
dekalb, fulton and city of atlanta cannot manage our budgets very well so we need others to pay money to us to reward us for mismanagement
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
11:21 am
ByteMe @ 11:16: Put a $2 toll on those roads, and I predict we’ll watch what’s left of the businesses that don’t have to be in Atlanta flee to the suburbs. Most of the people in this region already live OTP as it is; what makes you think raising the Atlanta “premium” (to borrow a phrase from Mayor Bloomberg) will make Atlanta more attractive, not less?
Aquagirl
July 24th, 2012
11:22 am
Near as I can tell, it’s not “most”, but “all”.
I can’t recall any previous regional SPLOSTs but I figured the moment I said “all” somebody would bring up the Regional Bigfoot Preservation SPLOST of 1963.
JDW
July 24th, 2012
11:22 am
Thanks ByteMe, I couldn’t remember. I think your 11:14 is probably a good hypothesis. Seems to me the Legislature should do their job on the region wide bit and let the counties have local control on the remainder.
ByteMe
July 24th, 2012
11:23 am
I’d take a long, hard look at letting a subdivision of this region and a subdivision of others team up to form their own region.
YES. That’s exactly right. Let a “region” get formed because they want to be part of it… but also give the regional planning groups the ability to create and manage their own tax and spending schemes without having the legislature get in the middle of it.
Oh, and roll MARTA into whatever planning region involved Fulton/Dekalb so that the name — and screwy governing structure — dies while the assets continue to serve the region.
ByteMe
July 24th, 2012
11:25 am
ByteMe @ 11:16: Put a $2 toll on those roads, and I predict we’ll watch what’s left of the businesses that don’t have to be in Atlanta flee to the suburbs
Your prediction is based on what? New York City? How much does it cost to drive onto Manhattan these days from Jersey? What about driving into Boston? Same thing.
There’s a reason cities form and it has nothing to do with low taxes for driving into them.
Jose
July 24th, 2012
11:25 am
give a credible plan and the outlying counties will BUY IN
but AS IS
no way
the projects listed will not alleviate traffic and create jobs
its a hodge podge of uncoordinated projects
give us a plan that details WHAT will be done and HOW it will alleviate traffic that are connected
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
11:26 am
Here’s another question: The ARRA Stimulus funds that we received, why didn’t any of those funds go towards these projects if they were “so pressing” for the continued growth of Georgia? We received $960,059,863 for transportation projects of which we have spent $665,054,863 on projects so far (4 projects- 2 of which created no new jobs).
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
11:28 am
Its gaining ground and the ads are effective.
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
11:28 am
Kyle: “My understanding is the revenues have continued to come in at or above projections…”
Understood, but what were those “excess/future” monies being saved for? A rainy day? I think not. Gena Evans/SRTA has not collected a dollar they didn’t expect to spend!
“..needs for the funding may be unequal even among equal populations.”
Exactly! Why do you think the law was changed in the early 2000’s? That is one reason the Grip bonds were “misspent” as to need. 4 laning 2 lane state routes with 10,000 veh a day in 2025 or later does not make sense, esp since these roads have numerous at grade intersections and esp when we have roads in the Atlanta area with over 25,000 veh a day NOW that won’t get improved.
ByteMe
July 24th, 2012
11:28 am
give a credible plan and the outlying counties will BUY IN
No, they won’t. Cherokee County is exactly where Cobb County was 15 years ago. They don’t want any of the projects that will make the city center better, because they’re so far removed from high density population centers. In 15 years, that will change again, but not now.
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
11:29 am
They are paying folks to vote also.
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
11:31 am
ByteMe: Have you been to downtown Atlanta lately? You really think it’s comparable to Manhattan or Boston?
One of the necessary steps in making this area work together like a region is for the city of Atlanta to recognize the suburbs believe they can live without it. And the gradual shift of jobs northward toward Perimeter and beyond tends to prove them right. The APS mess did more to thwart the city of Atlanta’s attractiveness to potential residents than a T-SPLOST “no” vote will. (Come to think of it, the Metro Chamber was involved with both…
Kyle Wingfield
July 24th, 2012
11:33 am
I’m heading to that family funeral now. Thanks to everyone for the condolences. I’ll be back online later.
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
11:33 am
Jose: So you never leave your county to travel elsewhere?
Common sense: Because these projects are not “shovel ready”. Most of the Tsplost projects have not been designed; money is needed to accelerate these projects into design and construction.
Jose
July 24th, 2012
11:34 am
COMMON CENTS
HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THINGS………. YOU MUST HATE THE CHILDREN WHO ARE WAITING ON MOMMY WHO IS STUCK IN TRAFFIC
god forbid we AUDIT how transportation money is spent
Too much money involved, let the graft and corruption begin
July 24th, 2012
11:34 am
Road Scholar, I typically don’t vote for any incumbent in any election if I can help it and I definitely support term limits. Term limits should apply to all elected offices as well as the courts etc. It’s only fair.
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
11:36 am
Kyle; Sorry for your loss.
Jefferson: Proof please. Also, how does the payer know the payee actually voted? For Tsplost?
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
11:38 am
Too much: Understood. But what about the others who do not trust their officials? How do they get re-elected to multiple term?
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
11:38 am
@Jose: Yes, I definitely hate those kids, considering that I commute from East Cobb to Emory/Clairmont Rd. area everyday and I have two children.
Don’t forget the Dept. of Energy lesson, people…
ByteMe
July 24th, 2012
11:39 am
Have you been to downtown Atlanta lately? You really think it’s comparable to Manhattan or Boston?
Yes, actually, I have. And Manhattan and Boston. In some ways, each is better, in some ways each is worse. Transit is better in the other places, obviously. The general vibe is warmer in Atlanta.
The suburbs want those businesses? Great! How will people get to them if they’re stuck in traffic or have to pay a $2 toll to get to I-285? And that’s when they start to realize that maybe Atlanta knew something they didn’t. Or they don’t realize it, but they’re still in the same place anyway.
Sorry for your loss. Funerals suck.
@@
July 24th, 2012
11:39 am
Is it too much to ask the City of Atlanta to clean up their own mess before gaining more access to mine?
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
11:40 am
@Road Scholar: So, are we just impatient people who can’t invest that money and sit on it until the projects are “shovel ready”? We have it so let’s spend it mentality is what got us where we are today. Make decisions in haste and repent in leisure.
Aquagirl
July 24th, 2012
11:40 am
My point was simply that having a list doesn’t necessarily doom a SPLOST, because SPLOSTs always have lists and they almost always pass.
True, my point is that list in a county is more understandable and up-close for a citizen of a county. If we had a regional SPLOST on almost anything it would most likely fail. Imagine a regional education SPLOST. Oh the humanity!
Problem is, transportation in this region has become…well, regional. It’s not like education where somebody can move to Cherokee and the crappy APS schools won’t as greatly affect their house values.
Transportation planning is pretty complicated anyhow, a seemingly no-brainer project X might not be on the list because of some obscure reason. All the average Joe can see is that project X isn’t included and therefore this list is stupid.
Tay
July 24th, 2012
11:44 am
JDW @ 10:42: You are spot on!
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
11:46 am
Kyle, each side spends crazy amounts of money to sway a few voters, but in the end Common Sense usually has the biggest say in who wins. Lie, deceive, and spread all the smoke you can, people usually see through the deception. They know that the projects are thrown together with little thought and planning and will do little to improve congestion. They know the tax is a lifetime millstone around their neck, as taxes never go away.
That is also why Obama is in such trouble. He continues to try and keep the focus on anything but his record, but the people, with common sense, are coming around to see his policies are the reason, we are in this mess.
They are all going down; first Joe PA, then TSplost, and then O Bom MA.
@@
July 24th, 2012
11:47 am
JDW’s 10:42 could just as easily apply to Obama and his “care” (Obamacare) campaign.
james
July 24th, 2012
11:53 am
Too much state and city government waste these
past 2 decades by corrupt people… I and many
others will vote NO on T-splost… It will make
no difference to traffic if it did…
Why give these pigs another penny??
Jose
July 24th, 2012
11:54 am
road scholar
the vast majority of my time driving is on INTERSTATE HIGHWAYS, STATE HIGHWAYS and local roads IN COUNTIES NOT FULTON, DEKALB OR CITY OF ATLANTA
would love to support TSPLOST if they could show HOW the projects would reduce traffic
but deep down you know that alot of the projects will HAVE NO AFFECT
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
11:56 am
@ Rafe: I love the screen name, BTW!
JDW
July 24th, 2012
12:02 pm
@@@…”JDW’s 10:42 could just as easily apply to Obama and his “care” (Obamacare) campaign.”
As it relates to the Republican’s in Congress you are quite correct…they did not do their job and have not for a great many years relative to healthcare. As far as Obamacare in general, no doubt it turned out to be an interim step that will require further action.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
12:03 pm
Road
The rural areas (120 out of 160 counties/COA) , while not having more voters, have more legislators!
Not true, they are apportioned just like congressman. The county unit system died years ago. The county I grew up in used to share a state rep with two or three other counties. Now he represents about 9 or 10 counties. The same for the state Senator. Most of the state legislature resides in and around the suburban and exurban counties, where the traffic is so awful.
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
12:03 pm
Jose: Traffic will not be reduced…congestion will! Transit could divert traffic from roads.
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
12:05 pm
Rafe: Where is the state’s upper leadership from (not counting Chip Rogers, who is more rural than in an urban area)?
JDW
July 24th, 2012
12:06 pm
@kyle…”I’m heading to that family funeral now”
Sorry for your loss.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
12:07 pm
Common Sense
Hope to change that screen name on 7 Nov!
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
12:08 pm
@Rafe, I am feverently hoping (and voting) with you!
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
12:10 pm
Road
I guess the country folk are just more persuasive, have more common sense and are better leaders. I am sure you would have another reason, right?
Ga Values
July 24th, 2012
12:12 pm
Why did Clear Channel give nearly $300,000.00 to a pro TSPLOST organization?? They are part of Reed’s corrupt cronies. Below is the 1st few paragraphs of this story of graft & the link to the entire story. By the way Barbara Fouch was a laddy friend of Maynard Jackson.
Late last Monday afternoon, a federal jury awarded $17.5 million to Corey Airport Services after finding that the City of Atlanta, Clear Channel and Barbara Fouch, Clear Channel’s minority partner, conspired to deprive Corey of its equal protection rights while bidding for the advertising contract at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport in 2002.
The City of Atlanta, Clear Channel and Fouch will share the compensatory damages of $8.5 million equally. Clear Channel was ordered to pay another $8.5 million and Fouch $500,000 in punitive damages. As a matter of law, the City of Atlanta cannot be held liable for punitive damages.
“This was a clear case of favoritism, cronyism and bid-rigging,” said co-lead attorney for Corey Airport Services Jeffrey R. Harris of Harris Penn Lowry LLP (HPL), the firm brought in by Corey to try the case before U.S District Judge Charles A. Pannell. “The jury not only found that the bidding process at the airport was tainted, but that the City, Clear Channel and Barbara Fouch conspired to ensure the lucrative advertising contract remained with political insiders and City-favored vendors.”
The case, which was filed in 2004, concerned how the City of Atlanta procures contracts for advertising at the world’s busiest airport. Clear Channel and Fouch were first awarded the contract in 1980. Until 1997, the contract stipulated that the City receive 50 percent of airport advertising revenues. The contract expired, but Clear Channel and Fouch maintained the advertising concession on a month-to-month basis from that point forward. Until 2007, they were paying the 1980 rental rate of 50 percent of revenue.
At the start of trial, Clear Channel and Fouch owed the city $15.6 million in unpaid rental fees due to the month-to-month holdover provision of the advertising contract. “The fact that the City of Atlanta left more than $15 million dollars on the table, never taking steps to recover that revenue, is compelling evidence of favoritism,” said Darren Penn of HPL and co-lead counsel for the plaintiff. “The jury obviously agreed. It is our hope that the City doesn’t continue to waste taxpayers’ money by dragging out this process.”
http://savannahbusinessjournal.com/news/law/733-aug-02-savannah-attorney-wins-175-million-in-atlanta-airport-bid-rigging-case
Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
July 24th, 2012
12:13 pm
Birth of a “No” vote
Pay too much in taxes already.
Estimated graft and corruption – 70% to 80% – who knows?
Poorly thought out projects, based more on politics than efficacy – 40% to 50% – who knows?
Tax will never go away – refer to MARTA. I’ll believe the 400 toll is going away when I see the booths come down.
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
12:19 pm
Too bad the voters vote on emotion and not logic, but that’s what you wanted.
yuzeyurbrane
July 24th, 2012
12:21 pm
Good piece, Kyle. I only disagree that it will be as close a vote as you predict. No scientific poll. Just my gut based on random comments from friends whose politics I know and my own conflict re the issues. Normally, these friends and I would be expected such a project. But all have mixed feelings and more and more are telling me they have decided to vote “no”. Combine that with those who are always against new taxes and I think TSplost will be defeated by wide margin.
catlady
July 24th, 2012
12:26 pm
TGT: I’m there, too. What is your read on why it is so disfavored?
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
12:27 pm
” I’m not sure that will suffice for Romney. If it would, he would be up big in the polls right now. He has to prove himself as a credible alternative first. He’s got three months.”
Alternative: Jobs, repeal Obamacare. Seems like a credible alternative to me.
Just Say No to New Taxes
July 24th, 2012
12:28 pm
Support of the politicians (bribes and kick backs for all) is a reason not to vote for T-SPLAT!
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
12:29 pm
“How do they get re-elected to multiple term?”
Um..voters. Duh.
SwamiDave
July 24th, 2012
12:29 pm
Darwin
“Wouldn’t raising the gas tax be more equitable? Heavy users of the roads would pay a more proportionate share of the infrastructure needs. Utilizing a sales tax unfairly targets the low income and others who don’t drive much, carpool or use public transportation.”
Couple of questions:
- Would there be an electricity surcharge on their household rates for those who own electric cars? What about those use who natural gas?
- Are we to assume that the gas taxes would be targeted for roads only? Since autos use roads, the other options(like transit) would need funding for their development and maintenance.
This should be interesting…..
-SD
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
12:30 pm
“Too bad the voters vote on emotion and not logic, but that’s what you wanted.”
Georgia was a solid blue state up until the year 2000. The people of GA got sick and tired of Democrats and threw them out. It amazes me that libs always seem to forget that fact.
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
12:32 pm
You are the forgetful one, knowitall.
Hillbilly D
July 24th, 2012
12:33 pm
The only way to solve traffic problems is to burn Atlanta to ground, start over and build it on a grid system like NYC.
A grid system looks good on paper but given the Atlanta region’s topography, it’d be easier said than done. That’s why the roads weren’t on a grid to start with.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
12:34 pm
Hillbilly D
I’m just throwing out a suggestion. There is a lot of poor city planning and has been for decades.
Hillbilly D
July 24th, 2012
12:35 pm
Logic @ 12:34
I wouldn’t argue with you on that.
Just Say No to New Taxes
July 24th, 2012
12:38 pm
Atlanta is irrelevant, the businesses and people who count are moving outside 285. The locusts can have downtown Atlanta…..
Hillbilly D
July 24th, 2012
12:38 pm
The county unit system died years ago.
Yep, 1962 to be exact.
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
12:42 pm
Just Say No:
The problem is that the locusts from Atlanta will rapidly begin moving OTP when everything else does. Problem not solved, just delayed…
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
12:45 pm
“You are the forgetful one, knowitall.”
What a profound statement, sport.
john
July 24th, 2012
12:46 pm
Gena’s SRTA sold a new round of bonds right after the election to secure her 200k job.
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
12:49 pm
You must knowitall, eh ? You forget why the D’s are gone ? There’s your hint.
Aquagirl
July 24th, 2012
12:49 pm
Oh, and condolences to you and the family Kyle.
PM
July 24th, 2012
12:57 pm
My home is not far from a train station and my office is literally on top of another train station. It would be a snap to take the train to work. But. It would take a lot of sacrifice. The 15-minute headway on the trains is unbearable. The cost for train fare is more than I’d spend in gas. And my car gives me freedom to leave work at any time, or even at the normal time, and go anywhere I want. So I have driven every workday.
Besides this, I did ride the bus and train for almost 20 straight years when I was too young or too poor to afford a car. My whole family was MARTA bound. So when the day came that I could afford my own car, I jumped at it and never looked back. MARTA represents a regression for me, not progression. The big hunk of metal parked in my driveway represents success and progress and breaking free of being stuck riding the bus. I hope I never again have to carry home a week’s worth of groceries on a bus and I feel sorry for those who are still stuck with it.
For the TSPLOST, I voted for it, but only while holding my nose. Traffic needs help, yes, but the state and local authorities have a horrible track record of wasting money on stupid projects and badly-constructing many of the others. So I expect more than half the money will basically be thrown into a fire and lost. So I voted for it. But not happily.
catlady
July 24th, 2012
1:04 pm
I voted against it. I simply do not trust those “in charge.” And, besides, I am joining those with the mantra of “If it doesn’t benefit me, I won’t support it.”
I will vote against every SPLOST unless it has my name on it (ie, SPLOST to support catlady for the rest of her life.)
I also am voting no for every constitutional amendment, unless it benefits me directly, for the rest of my time in Georgia. I have noticed that most of them are designed to reward one group or another. I am an official group of one, now. When we give one group a break, IT MEANS THE REST OF US PICK UP THE SLACK!
Why I am against TSPLOST
July 24th, 2012
1:09 pm
Because it will allow the gays to reach further out to the suburbs where I live safely with my family. I dont want them infecting my children or my life with their gay ways.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
1:09 pm
“You forget why the D’s are gone ? ”
Uh..they were voted out of office.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
1:10 pm
“Because it will allow the gays to reach further out to the suburbs where I live safely with my family. I dont want them infecting my children or my life with their gay ways.”
I’m gonna go out on a limb and take a guess that the person who typed this is a left winger pretending to be a right winger. I don’t know any right wingers who use the term “gay ways.”
Hillbilly D
July 24th, 2012
1:12 pm
In my experience, when it comes to voting on constitutional amendments in Georgia, it’s best to vote no. The wording is always so convoluted and designed to obscure the real purpose that I’d only vote for one, if I was 100% sure of what I was voting for. When they do get voted in, they almost never turn out to be what people thought they were voting on.
As for voting on things like SPLOSTs, bond issues, etc, I’ve noticed something about that, too. When they get voted down, if it’s something that’s really needed, they always seem to find the money somewhere, to go ahead and do what they were asking for more money to do. Their first instinct is to ask for more money, rather than prioritize what they already have. It’s awful easy to spend somebody else’s money and that’s what politicians excel at.
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
1:12 pm
Why I am…
They already live in your nice suburban neighborhood AND they have interior decorating, landscaping and more money than you too…
Rightwing Troll
July 24th, 2012
1:19 pm
Voting no… After the last 20 years of watching what wingnuts do versus what they promise to do it would be a huge waste of money that woud result in nothing but more wingnuttery…
Hell NO
July 24th, 2012
1:22 pm
I’m voting NO for several reasons – and all the spinning in the world won’t change my mind…
1) I won’t vote for a tax increase on myself. My representatives might do it, but I don’t have to do it for them.
2) $470 million to perform maintenance on MARTA…which had losses of over $500 million last year. Extravagant parties, expensive location for maintenance yard, 24 minute off peak times, PR touting leadership, lousy security, etc., etc. Throwing money at a corrupt system won’t help it. Sack the bureaucrats first.
3) Lack of faith or trust in the GaDOT. Northern Arc, 400 tolls, HOT lanes, Atlanta to Macon (via Lovejoy) rail line, etc., etc. Hell, they can’t even get the (temporary) McGinnis Ferry lanes over the river right.
4) It WON’T free up the roads.
JF McNamara
July 24th, 2012
1:34 pm
@Kyle,
I think the problem, if the referendum fails, is the list didn’t represent what most people “want.”
I’m laughing on the inside at this one. You know 80% of the posters haven’t actually looked at the list. They are just miming talking points…
MrLiberty
July 24th, 2012
1:34 pm
All of these businesses that will benefit can come up with millions of dollars to fund a campaign that will empower the government to steal from all of us with every purchase we make, yet these same folks can’t put together a private bond offering, business plan, etc. that would enable them to address the transporation problems they claim to be “suffering” from.
This is the fundamental problem with government and its takeover of everything essential in our society. Before we had a US government there was road construction and maintenance and today there are still plenty of examples of private road construction and maintenance worldwide without any government involvement. Maybe if business wasn’t always the beneficiary of government largess but actually had to be part of a real and private solution, traffic patterns, housing development, infrastructure improvements, etc. wouldn’t be so screwed up and would instead be more in line with the way our city has grown up. Government central planning doesn’t work. The massive opposition to this horrible initiative is just an indication that more and more people are waking up to that obvious fact every day.
md
July 24th, 2012
1:35 pm
“I’ll add: you’re a believer in the propriety of Citizens United, right? Hey, corporations are people too, you know. We reap what we sow.”
One owes it to themselves to watch the Scalia interview on CNN…….Morgan pretty much shut up after the answer about Citizens United. Scalia asked him if the media should have limits as well, and that was pretty much the end of that part of the discussion…………
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
1:38 pm
Thank you Mr. Liberty for making my point so much more eloquently than I seem to have been able to. Mine amounted to “You raised $6.5 million for this ad campaign. Couldn’t that money have been better spent on those projects y’all wanted to do?” LOL!
No Artificial Flavors
July 24th, 2012
1:39 pm
The T-SPLOST debacle, no matter which side one may be on, further demonstrates that there are too many counties in Georgia of which too many competing interests have doomed true regional progress.
Even if it passes we will still be left hungry because too many buzzards are eating on that carcass.
Don't Tread
July 24th, 2012
1:39 pm
Let the pro-tax crowd spend all the money they have….still voting NO.
When they clean up the corruption, graft, fraud, waste, coercion, and good-ole-boy back-room deals in government, then we’ll talk about raising taxes. (Cleaning up all that might require a really big piece of equipment…and a good respirator.)
HDB
July 24th, 2012
1:43 pm
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
11:03 am
All Obama has to do is to KEEP nailing Mitt over and over again with these charges and he wins:
‘Do you want a businessman for President whose business practices do NOT CREATE jobs but destroys them, profits from the job losses, and takes the money offshore??”
“Mitt…your father set the precedence; what do you have to HIDE?”
Mitt Romney: “Are you happy with 8.2% unemployment and a president who said small business owners didn’t build their business?”
@@
July 24th, 2012
1:44 pm
JDW:
At the time of its (Obamacare’s) passing, the majority in Congress were democrats. Obama delegated his “signature” healthcare plan to democrats, not republicans.
Taxing, I know.
schnirt
=====================================
Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said Monday that someone at the White House was responsible for the recent leaks of classified information.
“I think the White House has to understand that some of this is coming from their ranks,” Feinstein said in an address at the World Affairs Council, The Associated Press first reported.
Feinstein said she was certain that President Obama had not disclosed any of the classified intelligence, but believed others in the administration were responsible.
The buck stops with Obama.
md
July 24th, 2012
1:47 pm
“The wording is always so convoluted and designed to obscure the real purpose that I’d only vote for one, if I was 100% sure of what I was voting for. ”
Isn’t that the truth…….when one has to read them 5 times and decipher where the “no” is placed in the sentence to figure out the real meaning, we can very easily screw ourselves by voting the opposite of how we think we are voting.
Sometimes, the lawyers need to drop the legalese and just put it in laymen’s terms……..
Don Abernethy
July 24th, 2012
1:49 pm
You cannot trust the government with more money. They can spend zillions of dollars on ads and I will still vote NO.
@@
July 24th, 2012
1:51 pm
Oops!
http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/policy-and-strategy/239661-sen-feinstein-says-someone-at-white-house-is-behind-leaks
md
July 24th, 2012
1:55 pm
‘Do you want a businessman for President whose business practices do NOT CREATE jobs but destroys them, profits from the job losses, and takes the money offshore??”
Let’s see and the answers are NASA, Solyndra and the Russians………..
NASA jobs gone, outsourced the missions to the Russians and the money is certainly going offshore.
Or maybe profits from job losses is referring to Solyndra, where the bundlers running the place took their huge cut, shut down the business and recently showed up at an Obama fundraiser and donated it back to him…….in essence, Obama used tax dollars to donate to himself.
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
1:55 pm
The ads are catchy.
Obama is over
July 24th, 2012
1:58 pm
The problem here is that Atlantans have no confidence in our elected officials’ ability to be responsible stewards of our money. All you need to do to understand this concept is open your monthly water bill. Atlantans pay the highest water/sewer rates in the United States because of generations of mismanagement, cronyism, and blatant incompetence. Our city officials consistently put self interest above the needs of the citizens with the attitude of “now it’s our turn to cash in.” Look what Campbell and his posse did to the Atlanta Olympics turning what should have been a crowning achievement into a third world street market. The airport concession award process has been a joke. To add insult to injury, our esteemed mayor has appeared on Sunday morning talk shows preaching Obama’s tax the rich mantra. How about rather than a new tax, the State take over Hartsfield-Jackson from the city. Profits from the concessions could go towards transportation infrastructure improvements rather than wealthy Obama bundlers hiding behind city minority status business programs.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
1:58 pm
HDB
Obama has sent jobs over seas. See: Jeffery Immelt of GE. The Bain Capital thing just ain’t working out for Obama and the polls show it.
Unemployment has been over 8% for Obama’s entire first term. That’s bad, HDB. The health care ruling just pissed off the base and others all over again.
Mitt Romney: “Are you happy with 8.2% unemployment and a president who said small business owners didn’t build their business?”
Yep, and Mitt is winning on that issue alone.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:00 pm
HDB
Obama will not win an argument when it comes to the economy. The stimulus packages failed. People see through Obama’s rhetoric and realize he has no idea how businesses run. In fact, I doubt you do either.
md
July 24th, 2012
2:03 pm
Yep, Obama should keep running those Bain attack ads, they seem to be working…..for Romney:
“By more than 2-1, 63%-29%, those surveyed say Romney’s background in business, including his tenure at the private equity firm Bain Capital, would cause him to make good decisions, not bad ones, in dealing with the nation’s economic problems over the next four years”
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:04 pm
md
Correct. The only folks who keep talking about Bain are Obama’s supporters that live on MSNBC, AJC and HuffPost blogs. Even the president himself has backed off.
Hey libs, whatever happened to “the war on women?”
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
2:12 pm
As for voting on things like SPLOSTs, bond issues, etc, I’ve noticed something about that, too. When they get voted down, if it’s something that’s really needed, they always seem to find the money somewhere, to go ahead and do what they were asking for more money to do. Their first instinct is to ask for more money, rather than prioritize what they already have. It’s awful easy to spend somebody else’s money and that’s what politicians excel at.
Hillbilly D, ain’t it the truth! Very well said.
They blame the lack of road construction on reduced revenue from gas taxes and the economy. If everything suddenly improved and revenues exceeded past amounts, do you think they would jump up and drop the extra penny sales tax?
joe
July 24th, 2012
2:13 pm
Voting No…what makes you think the incompetent govt officials we have in this city/state will spend more $ on things we actually could benefit from instead of stupid projects like the trolly to the King Center. MARTA buses serve the same purpose. They should spend their time cutting wasteful spending instead of crying for more money.
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:13 pm
Logic-the war on women is still out there and not forgotten by any stretch. Come November you will find out exactly how well it is remembered and still going on.
Proud of yourself big boy?
Samantha
July 24th, 2012
2:14 pm
Right on, Kyle.
The hundred and fifty or so projects are the problem. Too many “other: priorities will be the death of TSPLOST. I imagine the glee of the politicians and social engineering wonks who drafted the project list will be turned to gall as the peole who would support a tax for traffic turn against the monstrostity that is TSPLOST. My message is simple. If the politicans wanted to sell TSPLOST they needed to focus like a laser on fixing our traffic woes not on thier other agendas.
Kasim Reed who would squander a billion dollars of TSPLOST on projects that won’t do a single thing to help traffic needs to get off his arrogant high horse and get real.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:15 pm
@Logic……here’s the counter to your argument…
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/24/12926538-if-the-first-six-months-dont-count?lite
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
2:16 pm
“The only folks who keep talking about Bain are Obama’s supporters that live on MSNBC, AJC and HuffPost blogs.”
A very cogent point, Logic.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
2:16 pm
Has anyone else noticed that Obama is running his campaign much like he runs the country. Mounds of deficit spending. I guess he is counting on some rich guys to bail him out in both instances.
It seems obvious to me, that he has never had to survive on a fixed amount of income in his life. I guess if he needed more, he always had someone he could ask to help him out.
Jack
July 24th, 2012
2:17 pm
Romey’s credible alternative is that he’s not Obama. And a NO vote for T-SPOST is the only credible alternative for tax paying citizens.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:18 pm
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:00 pm
When people HONESTLY look at Romney’s record….how Bain ships jobs overseas under the guise of job creation…..that is an argument that many people can understand!! Ask those same questions to the workers in ILLINOIS where Bain is about to offshore their jobs to China….
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
2:18 pm
the cat, that phony “war against women” didn’t work except on the myrmidons who were going to vote for Obama anyway.
But keep remembering that phony issue.
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:20 pm
Are you repubs still thinking Romoney will be the candidate after the convention??? LOL, don’t think so. I imagine he will be univited before then. Said it before, when that nutbag Ann Coulter threw ole Mitt under the bus, the adventure was over.
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:20 pm
Tibs-you poor delusional fool. We’ll see.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
2:20 pm
“Ask those same questions to the workers in ILLINOIS where Bain is about to offshore their jobs to China….”
And yet, HDB, I seem to recall that Romney no longer works at Bain Capital.
Do we start blaming Obama for the Illinois state legislature’s inability to balance their budget in 2012, even though he hasn’t served there since 2006?
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:21 pm
“The only folks who keep talking about Bain are Obama’s supporters that live on MSNBC, AJC and HuffPost blogs.”
Not quite….also check the Boston Globe, Chicago SunTimes/Tribune, Salon, WSJ, TPM…..since FOX won’t do any investigative reporting about Romney…….there’re more media outlets than many feel are evident…..
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:22 pm
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:21 pm
“The only folks who keep talking about Bain are Obama’s supporters that live on MSNBC, AJC and HuffPost blogs.”
Not quite….also check the Boston Globe, Chicago SunTimes/Tribune, Salon, WSJ, TPM…..since FOX won’t do any investigative reporting about Romney…….there’re more media outlets than many feel are evident…..
Bloomberg, Forbes, Fortune
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:23 pm
Tib….are you sure?? Romney doesn’t even remember WHEN he left Bain!! He said 1999; paperwork from the SEC says 2002…and he’s still getting PAID from Bain…so don’t think that there isn’t a POSSIBILITY of some influence from Romney there……..
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
2:25 pm
Does the term “keep talking about” now mean an article or two?
And HDB, I wouldn’t exactly call your list an unbiased one. The Boston Globe? Really? Salon? Seriously?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
2:28 pm
“and he’s still getting PAID from Bain…so don’t think that there isn’t a POSSIBILITY of some influence from Romney there……..”
HDB, you certainly are reaching for straws today.
Getting paid from Bain? You mean, as in being an investor and shareholder? How many investors have a say in the day-to-day operations of any company, HDB? Answer = Not many.
A possibility of influence, HDB? Just as there is a possibility that Elvis is still alive. But not very likely, since all his investments are in a blind trust. You DO know what that is, don’t you?
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:29 pm
Tibs-Bain still front page news on every serious news outlet. Why don’t you go look and see for yourself and report back with your findings
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:31 pm
Romoney is now at the Olympics watching his $75,000 deduction dance.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
2:31 pm
HDB
The MSM continues to try to make headway with the Bain attack, it is about all Obama has left, but it is not working according to the pollsters. One of the laid off steel workers in the anti Romney ad admitted the other day that he didn’t like Romney, but was not going to vote for Obama.
America has pretty much ignored this attack on capitalism, figuring no matter how flawed it is, it beats Obamaism, socialism, or fascism by a large margin.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:32 pm
Tib/Logic…..
When you state that a businessman could better run the economy, I revert to the Bush yaers (the latest businessman to affect the economy)…and discovered this tidbit:
From Feb. 2002 through June 2004, George W. Bush created a net total of 851,000 jobs. Average: 29.3K per month. Don’t forget to add 750K job LOSSES monthly during Bush’s second term……
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES0000000001?output_view=net_1mth
Obama: 4.2 million jobs; 140K per month.
Looks like a better average to me…….
Private sector total: 786,000 (Avg. 27.1K per month)
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:33 pm
So out of the hundreds of thousands of good folks whose jobs were outsourced, Rafe could find ONE that will not vote for Obama.
One of the laid off steel workers in the anti Romney ad admitted the other day that he didn’t like Romney, but was not going to vote for Obama.
Well done Rafe.
Hillbilly D
July 24th, 2012
2:34 pm
For there to be a “war on women”, you’d have to assume that all women think alike and have the same political views and that isn’t true. Most of the women that I know, personally, don’t think they’re at war with anybody……well maybe with their spouses but the women are winning that one.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:36 pm
Tiberius….there’s more that are looking….as “the cat” has referenced…
…and remember wjat Romney HIMSELF said about the “blind trust”…
The blind trust is an age-old ruse, if you will,” Romney said. “Which is to say you can always tell a blind trust what it can and cannot do. You give a blind trust rules.”
Newsmax.com: Romney in 1994: Blind Trusts a ‘Ruse’
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:38 pm
“Logic-the war on women is still out there and not forgotten by any stretch. Come November you will find out exactly how well it is remembered and still going on.”
No it isn’t and you can’t back that claim up with any substantial evidence, sport.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:39 pm
“here’s the counter to your argument…”
MADDOW???????????? You’ve gotta be kidding me, HDB. Try again, sport.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:39 pm
“Getting paid from Bain? You mean, as in being an investor and shareholder? How many investors have a say in the day-to-day operations of any company”
You mean the former CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER…one of the original FOUNDERS?? Don’t you think he doesn’t have ANY input, Tib…
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:40 pm
“how Bain ships jobs overseas under the guise of job creation…..that is an argument that many people can understand!! Ask those same questions to the workers in ILLINOIS where Bain is about to offshore their jobs to China….”
The problem with your argument is that you can’t prove that Romney sent any jobs over seas. What I can counter you with is the fact that Obama’s right hand man, Immelt, sent jobs to China via GE.
Romney has a stellar record with jobs creation. Obama not so much.
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:41 pm
logic-google is your friend. not doing the work for what I know is true.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
2:41 pm
cat
So out of the hundreds of thousands of good folks whose jobs were outsourced, Rafe could find ONE that will not vote for Obama.
I believe there are many, especially those whose jobs were outsourced by Obama. Check with the NASA folks, bet there are a few there, who will not vote for the man who outsourced many of their jobs, and killed many of those not outsourced.
Outsourcing jobs is a bipartisan accomplishment that has been going on, since WWII. Blame our tax laws. You reap what you sow, something Congress will never realize. Keep raising taxes and watch them flee.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:42 pm
Logic….DR. Maddow is quite accurate in her charting processes…and her research crew is better than FOX….don’t hate the message!!
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:42 pm
“you poor delusional fool. We’ll see.”
When one can’t debate, name call.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:42 pm
“DR. Maddow is quite accurate in her charting processes”
What is she a doctor of? Medicine, bio-chem?
Try again, sport.
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
2:43 pm
The Bain problem is being pounded in the swing states and is working well it appears. Expect more.
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:43 pm
Logic-did you have a big old plate of stupid for lunch?
Read this again, sport.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:32 pm
Tib/Logic…..
When you state that a businessman could better run the economy, I revert to the Bush yaers (the latest businessman to affect the economy)…and discovered this tidbit:
From Feb. 2002 through June 2004, George W. Bush created a net total of 851,000 jobs. Average: 29.3K per month. Don’t forget to add 750K job LOSSES monthly during Bush’s second term……
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES0000000001?output_view=net_1mth
Obama: 4.2 million jobs; 140K per month.
Looks like a better average to me…….
Private sector total: 786,000 (Avg. 27.1K per month
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:44 pm
“and her research crew is better than FOX”
That must explain why her ratings are far behind Fox News. I saw Jay Bookman on her show one night and this was their exchange.
Maddow: Mr. Bookman, can you explain the tea party in GA?
Bookman: Uh…uh…uh..uh…(face turns red)…uh…
Yep, bright people there.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:44 pm
“Logic-did you have a big old plate of stupid for lunch?”
And the childish insults continue.
Grow up, sport.
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
2:45 pm
Un American for a president to bank overseas.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
2:45 pm
50% of GE’s jobs are now overseas. That was such a good record that Barry made Jeff Immelt, GE CEO, the chairman of his jobs committee, which he has never convened or met with.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:45 pm
“Obama: 4.2 million jobs; 140K per month.”
LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then explain why unemployment just went back up?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
2:46 pm
HDB, I’ve come to expect nothing less than simplistic responses to complex issues from you, and I’m never disappointed.
First, you use the BLS numbers to create the “net” jobs created by GWB in the first 2 1/2 years of his term, then you use the quoted figure by the Obama campaign (rather than the same BLS numbers you used above) to tell us how many jobs Obama allegedly created.
Hate to burst your bubble, son, but that work of fiction is a lie.
Using the same figures you linked to, GWb created a net gain of 723k jobs during the first 2 1/2 years he served.
During that same time frame, the BLS numbers showed that Obama LOST 3.068 million jobs in his first 2 1/2 years in office.
Epic fail, HDB.
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:47 pm
What is Romney hiding in those tax returns? what is he and Ann Coulter scared of coming out?
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
2:47 pm
Jefferson
Hazardous, to mention UN American and president in the same sentence.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:47 pm
Logic…start with AMPAD, GST Steel, Sensata for Bain’s business prectives…..and more from the Washington Post…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/romneys-bain-capital-invested-in-companies-that-moved-jobs-overseas/2012/06/21/gJQAsD9ptV_story.html?hpid=z1
Rafe….NASA funding was cut under Bush..so should they blame Obama for Bush’s (and CONGRESS’) cuts??
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:47 pm
As usual Tibs is getting his info from pullitoutofmybackside.com
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:47 pm
“google is your friend. not doing the work for what I know is true.”
So you can’t back up your claims. Got it.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:48 pm
“start with AMPAD, GST Steel, Sensata for Bain’s business prectives…..and more from the Washington Post”
Oh, you mean the far left newspaper? Try again, sport.
“NASA funding was cut under Bush”
AND WAS SHUT DOWN UNDER OBAMA.
Keep trying, HDB.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
2:49 pm
“Don’t you think he doesn’t have ANY input, Tib…”
No.
Once again, HDB, all his money is held in a BLIND TRUST. You DO know what that is, don’t you?
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:49 pm
“Bain still front page news on every serious news outlet. ”
No it isn’t. In fact, I have todays NYTimes, WaPost and Wall Street Journal. Bain is not on any of the front pages.
Stop lying.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:51 pm
“What is Romney hiding in those tax returns?”
If Romney were hiding anything, the IRS would have gone after him years ago.
Keep trying though, it’s funny to see you squirm as you try to find something about Romney.
Hey, I have an idea. Perhaps you can go to his mansion and dig through his trash can like your ilk did with Palin.
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:51 pm
Kyle-seriously moderating a link?
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:52 pm
The gun club knew that Holmes was a kook but the federal guvment did not. Looks like HDB’s precious guvment can’t see that this guy was a nut.
James Holmes Received $26K Grant From Bethesda-Based National Institutes of Health
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/07/24/james-holmes-received-26k-grant-from-bethesda-based-national-institutes-of-health/
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:52 pm
“Kyle-seriously moderating a link?”
Kyle went to a funeral, cat. Maybe your link was a bad one.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
2:53 pm
“start with AMPAD, GST Steel, Sensata ”
As has been stated before, AMPAD was outsourced long after Romney left Bain, and the unions wouldn’t budge an inch on restructuring.
Same with GST Steel, which also would have closed 7 years earlier according to their own VP had Bain not invested in them.
Don’t know about Sensata, but if your track record remains the same, you’re probably wrong about that as well, HDB.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
2:54 pm
“As usual Tibs is getting his info from pullitoutofmybackside.com”
Feel free to refute any of my claims with actual facts, the cat. Thus far, you’re responses have been bereft of any.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:56 pm
Tiberius….The total job loss in all 50 states under Obama is about 552,000 through May 2012, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The president has created more than 4 million private-sector jobs in the past 27 months.
Now…when you look at the PUBLIC SECTOR JOBS that have been lost due to lack of government spending…primarily by REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS, then the MORE accurate picture of the unemployment problem develops!!
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:56 pm
Tiberius
These folks are hilarious. First, they claim that what we post are lies and THEN they go and post far-left garbage from Maddow and WaPost.
I asked a simple question about gun laws earlier this morning and not one person could answer the question without lying and hurling insults.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:57 pm
“The total job loss in all 50 states under Obama is about 552,000 through May 2012″
Flat. Out. Lie.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:58 pm
“primarily by REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS”
Ah yes, HDB shows his bias once again. It’s all the Repubs fault. It’s all Bush’s fault. Obama is a saint and an angel.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
2:59 pm
“Once again, HDB, all his money is held in a BLIND TRUST. You DO know what that is…”
Romney said HIMSELF that a blind trust is a RUSE!!
“The blind trust is an age-old ruse, if you will,” Romney said. “Which is to say you can always tell a blind trust what it can and cannot do. You give a blind trust rules.”
Read more on Newsmax.com: Romney in 1994: Blind Trusts a ‘Ruse’
the cat
July 24th, 2012
2:59 pm
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
2:58 pm
“primarily by REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS”
Ah yes, HDB shows his bias once again. It’s all the Repubs fault. It’s all Bush’s fault. Obama is a saint and an angel.
Glad you finally acknowledged this.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:02 pm
“Now…when you look at the PUBLIC SECTOR JOBS that have been lost due to lack of government spending…primarily by REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS,”
HDB, thank you for acknowledging that Republican governors do what they say they are going to do: balance budgets, cut taxes and reduce the size of government.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
3:02 pm
HDB
NASA funding was cut under Bush.
Au Contraire HDB
2001 NASA Budget 15,427,000,000
2008 NASA Budget 17,186,000,000
2012 NASA Budget 16, 014,000,000
Budget figures expressed in 2007 constant dollars, which means, they take in the devaluation of the dollar than has occurred due to Obama’s stewardship and QE I and II initiative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:05 pm
And here’s the REST of the quote, HDB. You know, the one you conveniently left off?
“You can say to a blind trust, don’t invest in properties which would be in conflict of interest or where the seller might think they’re going to get an advantage from me.”
Another epic fail, HDB. You’re usually better than this (but not much).
the cat
July 24th, 2012
3:08 pm
For logic-this is so nice and sure to bring female voters to the repubs, NOT.
http://www.chron.com/news/article/Appeals-court-upholds-South-Dakota-abortion-law-3731346.php
HDB
July 24th, 2012
3:12 pm
Logic…it’s not just me saying it…..
40.5% of public sector job losses occurred in 11 states….ALL had Republican Governors!! Add Texas…it’s an additional 31%……
http://www.rooseveltinstitute.org/sites/all/files/GOPProjectSlashingPublicWorkforce.pdf
What a shame
July 24th, 2012
3:16 pm
HDB
Are you the son of Tiberius?
HDB
July 24th, 2012
3:17 pm
Tiberius – pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:02 pm
….and ADD to ECONOMIC slumps and DOWNTURNS!! Unemployment would be down under 8% if Republicans had followed their OWN idiom….government spending and hiring in economic downturns, spending CUTS in economic upturns!! Even REAGAN did it!!
“You can say to a blind trust, don’t invest in properties which would be in conflict of interest or where the seller might think they’re going to get an advantage from me.”
..so that’s not being in control of a “blind trust”? It’s not THAT blind, is it??
HDB
July 24th, 2012
3:17 pm
What a shame
July 24th, 2012
3:16 pm
PLEASE!! Don’t put me in that category….
What a shame
July 24th, 2012
3:18 pm
HDB
I was wondering since he referred to you as “son” in an earlier post.
@@
July 24th, 2012
3:19 pm
Off-topic AGAIN!
People aren’t going to buy cars every two or three years anymore, an automotive website says based on an unscientific poll it conducted online.
Now, 78% of the more than 4,000 people polled by AutoMD.com says they will keep their cars at least 10 years.
“What is most compelling is that longer ownership has become an embedded habit for car owners, regardless of what the economy does,” said Brian Hafer, a vice president at AutoMD.com. “This significant lengthening of the ownership cycle looks like it is here to stay.”
Well, cars are better than yesterday. They don’t rust out anymore, and with proper care and more global warming we have no doubt they can survive at least a decade.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/07/most-people-waiting-up-to-10-years-to-buy-a-new-car/1
Cars are bad for global warming, but global warming is good for cars.
Too funny!
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:21 pm
“so that’s not being in control of a “blind trust”?”
No, those are general instruction. NOT control.
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
3:21 pm
As Logic was beating HDB over the head with the facts, I was just waiting for someone to play the race or religion cards in this debate, because everyone knows that if you don’t aree with Obama you are a racist. LOL!
So glad that it didn’t stoop to that level. I may have to hang around here for a while.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:21 pm
“Unemployment would be down under 8% if Republicans had followed their OWN idiom….government spending and hiring in economic downturns, spending CUTS in economic upturns!!”
What Republican party idiom are you referring to in this post, HDB?
the cat
July 24th, 2012
3:22 pm
Tibs-you do know a blind trust means NO instruction right?
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
3:25 pm
@@- I don’t think that I’ve ever owned a car for 10 years. The longest was about 6 and it was because it was parked most of that time.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
3:26 pm
Tiberius – pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:21 pm
Tib..if I give ANY instructions, I’m exerting MY personal control over a situation; therefore, if I instruct someone as to how my investments are to be done, that’s CONTROL…albeit LIMITED…but that’s still control!! “Blind” means that I have NO CONTROL nor have made ANY INSTRUCTIONS as to what’s to be done!!
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
3:21 pm
Facts go BOTH WAYS, you know…..and in a debate, you bring forth those that support your ideology!! This is a simple debate (IMHO)…..
HDB
July 24th, 2012
3:29 pm
Tib…under the ‘Sainted” Ronald Reagan, public sector employment ROSE to stave off the recession…and government spending QUADRUPLED! THAT Republican idiom!! Economists have stated that in economic downturns, government SPENDING staves off recessions….and you CUT spending in economic upturns!! With the cuts in government spending, unemployment is RISING!!
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
3:31 pm
HDB
July 24,2012
3:26 pm
Nope, facts don’t go both ways. A fact is a fact. Your opinion or interpretation of the facts may go both ways, but the fact still remains a fact.
I’ve seen you give a lot of opinions and spin but very little “fact”. Maybe that’s the issue; you don’t understand that facts are unchanging. Hmmm…
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:33 pm
“Tibs-you do know a blind trust means NO instruction right?”
Technically incorrect (again), the cat.
You are allowed to give your blind trust broad guidelines, as Romney has done.
A double fail by both you and HDB.
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
3:33 pm
@@: Off topic again? This blog has been off topic for 2-3 hours! Where is the blog police? Are donuts involve?
For those who have said that the $7 M +/- spent to advertise the Tsplost should have been spent on a project…OK…what 1 mile section of a two lane road in Atlanta do you want to widen? Because with costs what they are…$7M will only do about a mile if right of way is needed to construct it!
HDB
July 24th, 2012
3:35 pm
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
3:31 pm
Facts CAN change….when one is DISPROVEN!! Like Romney is a conservative…..that fact can change when reviewing Romney’s history!
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
3:36 pm
“As Logic was beating HDB over the head with the facts, I was just waiting for someone to play the race or religion cards in this debate, because everyone knows that if you don’t aree with Obama you are a racist.”
I was called a bigot yesterday for calling out Obama for saying if he had a son he’d look like Trayvon.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
3:37 pm
“t’s not just me saying it…”
Like I stated before, you and other libs are the only ones saying that.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
3:38 pm
Tib…you’re wrong:
blind trust
1.trust managed by third party: a legal arrangement in which a trustee manages funds for the benefit of somebody who has no knowledge of the specific management actions taken by the trustee
Investopedia explains ‘Blind Trust’
Blind trusts are generally used when a trustor wishes to keep the beneficiary unaware of the specific assets in the trust, such as to avoid conflict of interest between the beneficiary and the investments.
Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/blindtrust.asp#ixzz21ZRGA5Qv
If ANY instructions are given, it’s not BLIND!!
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
3:40 pm
“-this is so nice and sure to bring female voters to the repubs, NOT.”
I’m not sure what abortion has to do with the current economic climate but please, continue to divert attention away from todays topic.
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
3:40 pm
Since we are off topic, where was the security when the exit door to the theater was opened the first time. Heck you have more security if you try to sneak popcorn INTO the theater! When the door was opened, an alarm should have gone off. So, does Colorado allow people to open a theater exit door to let others in w/o a ticket????? For a premier?
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
3:42 pm
“Like Romney is a conservative”
Romney is not a conservative. What is it with left wingers and automatically assuming that if you have an R by your name, it means you’re a conservative?
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
3:42 pm
HDB: Romney was quoted as saying he left general guidelines for those operating the trust.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:42 pm
“under the ‘Sainted” Ronald Reagan, public sector employment ROSE to stave off the recession…and government spending QUADRUPLED! THAT Republican idiom!!”
You mean the one where Reagan had to work with Tip O’Neill to get the money he needed to kill of the USSR (and thus save us from nuclear war, btw) and giving Tip his social spending money? That Ronald Reagan, HDB?
“Economists have stated that in economic downturns, government SPENDING staves off recessions….and you CUT spending in economic upturns!!”
Yeah, Keynesian economists, HDB. And we know how well THAT turned out, didn’t we?
Are you going to get ANYTHING right today?
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
3:43 pm
Road Scholar
I’ve read reports where people said that someone opened the door for the gunmen.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
3:44 pm
“Yeah, Keynesian economists”
Keynesian economics are a thing of the past. Just ask Austan Goolsbee about his failed advice to Obama.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
3:45 pm
“Glad you finally acknowledged this.”
And we have another lib that can’t understand sarcasm.
@@
July 24th, 2012
3:46 pm
Scholar:
I just put that out there in case someone wants to stay ON TOPIC. I use it as a warning label.
I just voted “NO” on T-Splost, therefore, my commitment to the topic is no more.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:47 pm
“a legal arrangement in which a trustee manages funds for the benefit of somebody who has no knowledge of the specific management actions taken by the trustee”
Key word, HDB = SPECIFIC.
Hence, you may give broad instructions such as, “Don’t invest in green energy projects” and the like.
Class dismissed.
HDB
July 24th, 2012
3:51 pm
Road Scholar
July 24th, 2012
3:42 pm
Therefore…it’s NOT a blind trust!!
BTW, Tiberius ..even Romney’s OWN economic advisors say his “plan” won’t work!!
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/07/romney-economic-adviser-admits-romneys-economic-plan-wont-work/260128/
HDB
July 24th, 2012
3:54 pm
Tiberius – pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:47 pm
“Don’t invest in green energy projects”—THAT is a SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION you just gave..you have narrowed the definition of the trustee’s actions..so the trust isn’t BLIND!! Reboot, Tibb…..
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:56 pm
HDB, using an opinion piece to try to deflect from the argument you’re losing is not going to earn you any debate points.
Nor is using an opinion piece where a false conclusion is raised by taking a single quote out of an entirety of quotes from Romney’s economic plan.
You are really off your game today.
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
3:57 pm
Road Scholar
They believe that Holmes bought a ticket for the movie and was in the front row. He pretended (or maybe really did?) to get a call on his cell phone. He walked out of the emergency entrance of the theater (where he had previously parked), propped the door, donned his flak jacket and gear and came back in the theater about 10 mins into the movie and started shooting. I don’t think it is a true “emergency entrance”. If it is like the theaters here, after the movie people leave out of those doors without an alarm sounding. I guess we can kiss that crap goodbye, huh?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
3:57 pm
No, HDB, a specific instruction would be “Don’t invest in Solyndra”.
Another fail on your part.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
3:58 pm
“.even Romney’s OWN economic advisors say his “plan” won’t work!!”
It would make more sense if you would stop reading a headline and actually read what’s in that Op-Ed piece, HDB. It’s more full from the Atlantic. A far left rag.
I’d have more respect for you if you’d stop pretending to know what you’re talking about. You continue to post articles from far left rags and telling others that those articles are the gospel truth.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
3:59 pm
“Don’t invest in green energy projects”
Amen.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
4:01 pm
HDB
Explain this, sport.
Today, USA Today/Gallup released a poll of adults which found that, by more than 2-1, 63%-29%, voters felt Romney’s tenure at Bain would cause him to make good decisions about turning around the economy and creating jobs. 61% of adults felt that government was doing too many things that should be left to individuals and businesses. The poll also found that Romney was viewed as better able to control government spending.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
4:03 pm
Another lib gets the smack down. Every time the left tries to paint the Tea Party as extreme, they get in big trouble.
ABC President: Ross report hurts coverage
ABC News president Ben Sherwood told staff today that last Friday’s incorrect report by Brian Ross detracts from the network’s otherwise excellent coverage of the Colarado theater shooting, network sources tell POLITICO.
Sherwood’s remarks, made on the network’s daily editorial conference call, came the morning after Ross’s report was picked up by late night comedians John Stewart and Stephen Colbert of Comedy Central, both of whom used Ross’s erroneous suggestion of a Tea Party link to the Colorado theater shooting as fodder for their Monday night routines.
(Brian Ross of ABC takes heat for another blunder)
On Monday’s conference call, ABC News SVP James Goldston also commended the staff for its work, noted the incorrect report, and said that the network was taking steps to ensure it did not happen again, sources told POLITICO yesterday.
A spokesperson with ABC News said the network does not comment on editorial conference calls.
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
4:07 pm
HDB
“THAT is a SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION you just gave..you have narrowed the definition of the trustee’s actions..so the trust isn’t BLIND!! Reboot, Tibb…..”
Not directed at me, BUT a specific instruction would be “Don’t invest in XYZ Co.” as oppsed to “Don’t invest in any green companies” How do I know this, you ask? Well, aside from being common sense, I work for an investment firm. D’oh!
The legalese at the bottom of those contracts is VERY specific about what is and is not considered specific…
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
4:18 pm
Romney has something to hide, or he would show.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
4:26 pm
“Romney has something to hide, or he would show.”
Or maybe he’s just toying with you and will release it in October.
Maggie's Daughter
July 24th, 2012
4:27 pm
Just like public schools. Think they can throw $$$ at the problem to fix it. Typical Atlanta chamber solution.
md
July 24th, 2012
4:30 pm
“The Kansas City plant was itself dying. At its 1970 height it employed 4,500; by the late 1980s it was down to 1,000. A year before acquisition, Armco had laid off another 75. Its equipment was old; it faced fierce competition at home and abroad.”
“B.C. Huselton, a vice president of the business at the time, tells me that in 1990 the Armco CEO held a meeting. “He told us, ‘Look, we either try to sell it, or we’ve got to shut it down.’” Armco had shut down another Kansas City facility, Union Wire Rope, only a few years before”
“Huselton says he felt compelled to come forward in response to Democratic attacks: “I held my tongue while this was all going on, and I finally said, ‘I can’t take this anymore.’ We did a lot of good work there and somebody needs to know this.”
“Did it all work out? No. Did we make a difference? I think we made a big difference,” he says. “There’s this vampire story that Bain comes in and shows its teeth and sucks the blood out of the operation. It was really entirely the opposite of that. We went looking for a blood donor.”
And for the record, Huselton has stated publicly that he voted for Obama in 2008……but won’t in round 2.
Old timer
July 24th, 2012
4:30 pm
I think, if we had rail from Town Center…Kennesaw through town to the airport and the same for Mall Of Ga, people would vote for this plan. I would love to get to the Ted, airport, Fox easily and not fight traffic. I know… A pipe dream.
I am not voting for the mess proposed by TSPLOT.
md
July 24th, 2012
4:32 pm
And HDB…..you are aware that the private sector must generate the capital to run both the sectors….right?
All those public sector jobs have to be paid for by the private sector……think that might have a bearing on a sputtering economy??
md
July 24th, 2012
4:34 pm
“Romney has something to hide, or he would show.”
He already said why bother…..if Obama can create lies with what he doesn’t know, why bother putting more fodder out there for the uninformed to create talking points.
HDB is a classic example of why Romney doesn’t need to add anything else to the fray…..this guy hasn’t researched the first point he parrots.
Jose
July 24th, 2012
4:40 pm
OBAMA preaches fairness and being your brothers keeper
yet look at his own life……… he’s a millionaire yet he lets family members live in poverty
spread the wealth hypocrit
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
4:42 pm
“Romney has something to hide, or he would show.”
Yeah, he’s hiding his PRIVACY. Something you libs don’t quite understand.
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
4:43 pm
Its not gonna look good when asked face to face “what are you hiding?”, now is it ?
md
July 24th, 2012
4:48 pm
“Its not gonna look good when asked face to face “what are you hiding?”, now is it ?”
Depends on which one is answering that one……Romney has money, we all know it. It is not a secret.
On the other hand, if we are talking about the Fast and Furious Docs, College Transcripts/Docs, and possibly the new National Security leak info, then yeh, one of them may have a problem.
Common Cents
July 24th, 2012
4:48 pm
Just like there are a lot of questions that wouldn’t look good ON EITHER SIDE wen they are asked face to face. However, based on what has occurred over the past 4 years, I will take some “change” anyway I can get it. He promised change and that’s what he has left a lot of us with…
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
4:50 pm
“what are you hiding?”
Answer = Nothing.
Next?
Jefferson
July 24th, 2012
4:56 pm
Just wait, so far it hasn’t looked positive.
Jose
July 24th, 2012
4:56 pm
romney needs to stick with attacks about obamas current actions
107 fundraisers
0 meeting with his jobs council
hammer it home
Jose
July 24th, 2012
4:57 pm
obama called bush unpatriotic for adding trillions to the national debt
romney needs to apply obama logic and tell him to look in the mirror
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
5:01 pm
“Its not gonna look good when asked face to face “what are you hiding?”,
And Mitt can respond: “Release your grades, Obama”
Conversation over.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
5:03 pm
“romney needs to stick with attacks about obamas current actions”
He should treat Obama the same way he treated Newt. None of the Mccain style politics. Really go after him and hammer him on EVERYTHING.
Where are the jobs, Obama?
Why didn’t you shut down Gitmo, Obama?
Why did you bribe your own party to get Obozocare passed, Obama?
Why are you the only president in US history to govern over a country that was downgraded by Moodys?
Why did you abandon our allies, Obama?
If the Bush tax cuts were so bad, why did you extend them?
See, it’s easy to go after Obama because GASP…he has a record of crap.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
5:04 pm
“Just wait, so far it hasn’t looked positive.
Only to libs, jefferson. Everyone else is living in reality where unemployment is 8.2%.
If Mitt had anything to hide, the IRS would have come after him decades ago.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
5:07 pm
And Mitt can respond: “Fast and Furious, Obama”
And Mitt can respond: “National Security leaks, Obama”
And the list goes on and on . . .
Michael H. Smith
July 24th, 2012
5:10 pm
Nothing more American than when the underdog or small money wins.
Rah, Rah, T-SPLAT!
tiredofIT
July 24th, 2012
5:14 pm
So Mitt Waffles want to have multiple wars in the middle east. I guess he doesn’t know we are broke or maybe he and is billionaire supports will pay for it?
cynic
July 24th, 2012
5:16 pm
I hate to say we are wasting our time discussing this. I’m sure the folks at Diebold have already preprogrammed the outcome. There is no oversight in TSPLOST and there is no oversight in the election.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
5:17 pm
“So Mitt Waffles want to have multiple wars in the middle east.”
Please provide proof of this in actual statements by Mitt Romney.
Thanks, tiredofIT.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
5:18 pm
“I hate to say we are wasting our time discussing this. I’m sure the folks at Diebold have already preprogrammed the outcome.”
I’m sorry, but this is the most moronic statement of the day. Diebold doesn’t program the outcome of any voting machine. Can’t be done.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
5:20 pm
” I’m sure the folks at Diebold have already preprogrammed the outcome. ‘
Yeah, that’s it.
tiredofIT
July 24th, 2012
5:27 pm
So you haven’t heard his speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars. Typical chicken hawk rhetoric.
tiredofIT
July 24th, 2012
5:29 pm
Diebold: hackable as an eighty years computer.
tiredofIT
July 24th, 2012
5:30 pm
eighty year-olds computer. If you trust software for voting, then you know understand software.
md
July 24th, 2012
5:34 pm
There is an art to saber rattling too……….
Telling Assad he would really really be in trouble if he used gas on his people doesn’t do much good when the guy has already slaughtered thousands to include innocent children with no consequences……..
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
5:37 pm
“So you haven’t heard his speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars.”
Thanks for NOT providing me with specific quotes regarding your false claim, tiredofIT.
All too typical for you.
“Diebold: hackable as an eighty years computer.”
Utterly false. One must have ACCESS to the machines. Not likely to happen under ANY circumstances. Nice try, but epic fail.
And please tell me how many voting machines you’ve programmed for an election, tireofIT. This should be good.
tiredofIT
July 24th, 2012
5:47 pm
Diebold hacking:
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=crnk_fspiked&gs_nf=1&gs_mss=diebold%20voting%20machines%20h&tok=b7rVDhpKI4IOBQhd6yhkjQ&pq=diebold%20voting%20machines&cp=27&gs_id=i&xhr=t&q=diebold+voting+machines+hacked&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=diebold+voting+machines+hac&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=4e3bf85154472ca5&biw=1366&bih=653
md
July 24th, 2012
5:51 pm
And right off that link:
“Anyone with about $10, physical access to a Diebold voting machine and rudimentary knowledge of electronics can remotely hack into the device, according to experts at the Vulnerability Assessment Team at Argonne National Laboratory in Illinois”
I believe the operative word is “physical access”……….of course, that’s all it takes with a paper vote too…….
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
6:19 pm
md, don’t you always love their argument?
Well, first you need to get access to the machines . . . .
Too funny!
And I noticed that tiredofIT didn’t come back with how many Diebold machines he’s prepared for an election.
Vote-O-Meter
July 24th, 2012
6:19 pm
The latest anecdotal poll by the Vote-O-Meter says the T-SPLOST will pass by a whisker. That will show once again that the entrenched interests can get whatever they want in Atlanta. Of course, if the Vote-O-Meter is wrong and the T-SPLOST loses, it will reflect very poorly on the business and political leadership which had oodles of money but devised a weak transit plan, marketed it poorly, was out-of-touch with the citizenry. and foolishly thought they could fool enough of the people enough of the time.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
July 24th, 2012
6:22 pm
Dems do not know much about Diebold, they just prefer paper ballots. Ask Charlie Rangel or MN Senator Stuart Smalley (Al Franken), if you run short of paper votes, you can always find a few bags full, that you haven’t counted yet.
Logic was never intended for libs
July 24th, 2012
6:32 pm
Ruh roh. Obama just stepped in it AGAIN.
Feinstein: Leaks Came From White House
“I think the White House has to understand that some of this is coming from its ranks. I don’t know specifically where, but they have to understand that and do something about it…
Rightwing Troll
July 24th, 2012
7:13 pm
““Don’t invest in green energy projects””
Wow… really? How pathetic can you get? Now lets just go ahead and start throwing trash out the car window again, we’ll show those damn libs..
If Obama came out and said the sky was blue you morons would start a campaign against the color blue… this after 8 years of unmitigated support George of the bungle, which is exactly why things today are as they are…
JamVet
July 24th, 2012
7:37 pm
I got a robocall earlier today from some big muckety muck in the state GOP about how the “liberals” were trying to spread false information about the the T-SPLOST not being necessary.
I damn near dropped the phone from laughing. (Musta been a RINO.)
Today’s GOP certainly has an identity crisis, huh?
They are worse than a confused sixteen year old girl…
md
July 24th, 2012
7:39 pm
” this after 8 years of unmitigated support George of the bungle, which is exactly why things today are as they are…”
Wonder if the dems hadn’t obstructed Georgie on his F/F reform would we even be in this mess??
Another that fails to look at the big picture………
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
July 24th, 2012
8:15 pm
The kookman libs are awfully foamy this evening.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 24th, 2012
8:26 pm
Troll, if you had actually READ the comment, you would have seen that that line was being used as an example to school HDB in what can be said vs. what cannot be said to the manager of a blind trust.
That you reacted as you did shows the defensive nature of liberals when their cherished causes are spoken about without appropriate reverence.
@@
July 24th, 2012
8:30 pm
Totally assinine.
Heirs of a wealthy New York art dealer were left a $65 million sculpture that might just be more trouble than its worth.
Illeana Sonnabend, who died in 2007, left an art collection worth an estimated $1 billion. But one item in particular, Robert Rauschenberg’s “Canyon,” is an heir’s nightmare, a lawyer’s dream and an IRS conundrum. The bequest comes with a $29 million tax bill, but since the piece includes a stuffed eagle, it can’t be
sold.
Federal law makes it a crime to possess, transport, sell or otherwise convey a bald eagle, whether it is alive or, as in this case, stuffed. Sonnabend got an informal waiver from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in 1981 that allowed her to keep the piece, considered a masterwork of 20th century art. (Rauschenberg got a waiver for the artwork by showing that the bird had been killed and stuffed long before the restriction was enacted.)
Give the IRS “the bird”.
schnirt
ank
July 24th, 2012
8:49 pm
MY view after reading the pros and cons over the past 6
months,in addition to discussing this with some of my non-medical, politically
inclined friends. Also, as a native Atlantan who has been here for some
time, has been involved in some political work at the state capital over
theyears, and wants this city to continue to grow and improve, I want to
share my thoughts with those of you who may have only recently moved here.
Finally, seems like many people are far past being decided. In fact, my gut feel is that the word from the word “tax”, some people on this site had already decided what they were going to do. This is not geared toward them; that would be like arguing with a table. Instead, this is for those who are still deciding.
1) We are 49th in the country in investement into roads/transportation
This is a major source of funding for the Beltline, a massive in-town
infrastructure as a state.
2) JUST TO GET TO THIS POINT WHERE A REFERENDUM WAS EVEN ALLOWED TO BE
PLACED ON THE BALLET, IT TOOK 3-4 yrs OF LEGISLATIVE SESSIONS. This is
because every year that this came up, it died in the last days of the
session (the session only meets for 40 days, once a yr). There is a real
divide between the rest of GA and Atlanta, and though people are working
on trying to bridge the gap, this has been a MAJOR issue over the past 5 yrs.
3) THE gas tax, one of the lowest in the country, will likely never be
increased by a strongly conservative state legislature.
4) If the tax fails, there is no suitable, ready to go plan B. At the
least, another vote may come up in 2 yrs (2014) but its unclear if
politicians will have the will power to get together as they did this
time. Already, some of those who sat on the roundtable are being aggressively
challenged by other more conservative, anti-tax candidates in primary
elections (see cobb county)
5) The cost of the tax per person per year will be around 130 dollars (>
18 yrs of age). Lost productivity in sitting around in traffic, gasoline,
etc is estimated to be 950 dollars per year per person.
6) Companies are choosing to relocate businesses to cities that invest
into infrastructure. Places like Charlotte, Dallas, and Houston are already
some years ahead in transportation infrastructure. Atlanta currently has the
same number of jobs as it did in 2001.
7) July voting elections are notorious for low turnout. SO TURNOUT WILL
MAKE ALL THE DIFFERENCE. THATS WHY IM ASKING YOU TO CONSIDER VOTING!
project which is thought to be one of the most aggressive,
forward-thinking re-development plans in the country at this time.
9) The 400 toll is ending (finally; it was supposed to be ended more
recently, but extended by a lame duck Sonny Perdue) and so further
transportation funding is a big question
Is this a perfect piece of legislation? NO, absolutely not. There is 52%
transit investments, 48% road infrastructure investment. Are there some
flaws with the bill. Likely, yes. However, there will always be people
unhappy with things like this on both sides of the isles. Some think not
enough roads, some think not enough transit.
The above is just my 2 cents.
Bruno
July 24th, 2012
8:53 pm
Sure wish we were at the Doobie Bros concert tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEyvnwkIxfo
Bruno
July 24th, 2012
8:57 pm
In case it wasn’t noted on the blog, Sherman Hemsley passed away today. Best known for his role as George Jefferson in the 70s, he was a multi-talented performer. Crossing genre lines musically, he was a big fan of YES and one of my personal favorite prog-rock bands, Gentle Giant. Tip o’ the cap to this South Philly native.
Bruno
July 24th, 2012
9:00 pm
They won’t be playing this one tonight since Michael McDonald is not with the band, but this one goes out to my sweetie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ncO-sBaIVY
Bruno
July 24th, 2012
9:05 pm
“Real Love”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdtyEddtuF4
Bruno
July 24th, 2012
9:11 pm
One for my honey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ra8rOILOBg
Mark
July 24th, 2012
9:23 pm
Don’t understand why the pols say increasing gas tax is off the table when Georgia’s isn’t high at all compared to other states. AJC does not explain this. A few pennies more on $3-4 gas isn’t that much and is less regressive than taxing groceries and everything else. At least, the SPLOST could have been a Special Local Option Sales Tax on Gas – SPLOST-G.
Scott
July 24th, 2012
9:24 pm
No! They still haven’t synchronized the lights on Peachtree. DO NOT give anybody 7 BILLION dollars for “projects.
Dusty
July 24th, 2012
9:58 pm
Hey Hey….THE BRAVES JUST WON THEIR GAME WITH MIAMI..Yep 4 to 3!! I knew they could do it. Go Braves!!!
Just thought you’d like to hear some good news!!
Vote NO for TSPLOST !!!!
July 24th, 2012
10:07 pm
Let’s see….they want us to trust them to “untie” the “tied up mess” that they “tied up” to begin with??? Yeah right…..VOTE NO FOR T-SPLAT !!!!!
Liz
July 24th, 2012
10:11 pm
I resent Cobb asking all of us to pay for their portion of matching funds for their air traffic control tower and airport improvements. Every other county or city manages to pay their own, and if they can’t Cobb should ask private jet owners to start paying landing fees. Geeze. I don’t want to pay for streetcars for Atlanta. Let them issue their own bonds, for tourist attractions (likely to fail). I am not thrilled about the Northern Arc, either (Thank you, Sierra Club, for staying on top of this).
Vote No. Too much pork, projects obviously will fail their mission to reduce traffic to any significant or measurable degree, and their are better ways to fund those too few worthwhile projects, and the Northern Arc should never be.
DawgDad
July 24th, 2012
10:24 pm
“there’s no clear, coherent message about how the T-SPLOST projects will help the region today, from the urban core to the suburbs”
They don’t have a clear, coherent message after all this time and money and rhetoric because there isn’t one to be had. All they have is “you pay for our boondoggles and we’ll throw a chicken bone or two into your region for you to choke on”.
Cases can be made locally for some of the individual projects, or sets of projects within a sub-region, but as a regional collective proposal the benefits do not align with citizens/voters interests, funding is ridiculously structured as a sales tax increase in a very poor economy, and the whole package has been promoted with some of the most offensive demagoguery and brow-beating rhetoric money can buy.
We ALREADY pay to build and maintain transportation infrastructure. The T-SPLOST will not cure Atlanta traffic woes, instead it will destroy a significant portion of the economic capacity to cure them. The leaders aren’t serious about curing traffic problems. Proof? HOT lanes coming my way. Marta. Beltline. Etc.
Pulling back the 400 tolls was about as crass a fourth-and-long political stunt as I’ve ever seen. They need those GA-400-commuter voters so badly they publicly attempted to buy their votes, with the rest of us picking up the slack for the lost revenues. Right. Makes me want to RUN to the polls and vote NO!!!!
Hillbilly D
July 24th, 2012
10:27 pm
If y’all think the Atlanta Region project list is bad, you ought to take a look at the lists for some of the other regions.
Dusty
July 24th, 2012
10:37 pm
ank@8:49
Your post is very sensible. But I won’t consider voting for T-SPLOST until Georgia gets its financial house in order.
I want DOT & MARTA and anybody else making infra structure plans to act like they are taking every dime out of their own pocket books, not ours. I want good thrifty plans for immediate problem spots.
When the public sees that kind of action and that attitude, they will later approve such “do dads” as trolly cars, big green spaces, bicycle paths, special lines to memorials, and maybe better ways to get in and out of Atlanta.
The so called “thinkers” cry we are doomed to dismal failure without T-SPLOST. I say, “cut the frills” and get your house in order. Until then, it’s NO!!
middle of the road
July 25th, 2012
5:43 am
But you forget one thing – the anti-tax movement had a great ally – Sonny Perdue!
tom rankin
July 25th, 2012
6:18 am
Bad tax, bad idea, Bad politicians, bad economy, unfair taxation, should I go on?
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 25th, 2012
7:21 am
Logic, please note Kyle’s new rules. You may not refer to another blogger by other than their blogging name.
How Inciteful Is That!
July 25th, 2012
7:21 am
Don’t forget your conditioning, Republicans.
1) Consumption taxes are good taxes.
2) Consumption taxes are fair taxes.
3) T-SPLOST is a good, fair tax.
How Inciteful Is That!
July 25th, 2012
7:29 am
T-SPLOST taxes food so those people that eat and use things like food stamps have to pay their fair share too. T-SPLOST is a good, Fair tax. T-SPLOST is not a bad tax. It does not tax business. It does not tax income. It only taxes consumption. The more you gorge, the more you pay. That’s the very definition of a Fair Tax.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 25th, 2012
7:43 am
Inciteful, as usual, misses the point. No surprise there.
T-SPLOST is a general tax TARGETING a specific issue, therefore, it hits everyone; even those who may never use the alleged “upgrades” to our transportation systems.
As such, it is the very definition of an unfair tax.
@@
July 25th, 2012
7:54 am
Since Kyle hasn’t offered a new topic, I dropped in <—–
next door. A huge mistake!
Looters on compooters.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 25th, 2012
7:56 am
OK, @@, I understand the reason for wanting a new topic, but why go THERE?
@@
July 25th, 2012
7:58 am
Tiberius:
Curiosity has always been my downfall.
D man
July 25th, 2012
8:00 am
Kyle,
I believe we do need road improvements but politicians have taken the easy way out by putting a new tax on the ballot. We are already giving the government trillions of dollars to use for whatever they feel is most important. If they want to improve roads then take money away from a lesser important program or project and use it for road improvements. It IS THAT SIMPLE. What is more important, paying for the “arts” or new roads? Paying for a new stadium or new roads? Paying for anything that is not as important as new roads or new roads? Stop asking me for more money. I already pay about 50cents of every dollar I make to the government in taxes. If you politicians are too lazy to do your job of better managing our money, then step aside and let someone else try.
@@
July 25th, 2012
8:00 am
I also visited Jim Galloway’s place.
How Inciteful Is That!
July 25th, 2012
8:13 am
Tiberius, as usual, misses the point. No surprise there.
T-SPLOST is a consumption tax. It is by definition a Fair Tax. It taxes all consumers and the amount of tax is directly proportional to the amount of consumption. All consumables are transported therefore T-SPLOST will be used to fund said transportation infrastructure. In stark contrast, an income tax or property tax would be an improper form of taxation for funding consumption. T-SPLOST is a good, Fair Tax.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 25th, 2012
8:24 am
Inciteful, consumption taxes are GENERALLY fair taxes, however, your use of the capitalized “Fair Tax” is a stupid attempt to tie a consumption tax designed to fund ALL of government with a proposal to fund a certain part of government.
Epic fail.
Not beneath you to try, however, since you don’t have another valid argument for the T-SPLOST.
How Inciteful Is That!
July 25th, 2012
8:29 am
iberius, consumption taxes are fair taxes, however, your use of deflection is a stupid attempt to divert from the obvious.
Epic fail.
Not beneath you to try, however, since you don’t have another valid argument against the T-SPLOST.
How Inciteful Is That!
July 25th, 2012
8:30 am
Uh Oh. The “T” in Tiberius got chopped. That was not, I repeat, NOT, an attempt to call Tiberius by any other name than his chosen name.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 25th, 2012
8:37 am
No deflection, Inciteful. A deflection is trying to change the subject, which you do very often. Mine was a response to your lame attempt to smear the Fair Tax with a Special Purpose Tax.
As I have written many times, I have multiple reasons for not supporting the T-SPLOST.
What I don’t do is try to call donkey a horse, which is the equivalent of your T-SPLOST / Fair Tax analogy.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
July 25th, 2012
8:49 am
From a Romney advisor:
We are part of an Anglo-Saxon heritage, and he feels that the special relationship is special. The White House didn’t fully appreciate the shared history we have.
How racist is that? What about all the German heritage? The Italian heritage? The Russian?, the African? the Asian?
This campaign is a joke.
How Inciteful Is That!
July 25th, 2012
8:49 am
No deflection on my part since I made no attempt to change the subject away from T-SPLOST. T-SPLOST is a tax on consumption and the Fair Tax is a tax on consumption. In fact T-SPLOST is more fair than the Fair Tax since it has no provision to return a portion to the people to cover their basic consumption needs.
Perhaps you have some documentation that defines the Fair Tax as a tax on consumption that must be spent on special purpose things other than the things the T-SPLOST consumption tax would be spent on. That would be an interesting read.
As I have written here before, I will not vote for T-SPLOST but that has nothing to do with the fact that it is indeed a Fair Tax, a good tax, a tax on consumption.
What I don’t do is try to call a consumption tax something other than a Fair Tax because to do so is nothing short of a misrepresentation of a Fair consumption tax.
Bob
July 25th, 2012
9:33 am
If 7 billion is riased by the tax, at least 4 billion would be spent well, who could be against that !
Kyle Wingfield
July 25th, 2012
9:39 am
Logic: Per rule No. 2, you’re off the blog until next Wednesday, Aug. 1.
Jose
July 25th, 2012
9:47 am
the idea that 1 billion $’s to Marta from T-SPLOST will alleviate traffic is misleading…………. Fulton, Dekalb and CofATL are trying to hide the fact they cannot properly budget and operate MARTA well so they are asking the rest of the counties to PAY UP
now the rest of the counties BENEFIT from MARTA but we will NOT PAY UP
let the other counties BUDGET AND OPERATE MARTA and then we will pass T-SPLOST
sircharles
July 25th, 2012
10:02 am
The Mayor of Atlanta spoke in favor of this TSPLOST….let him and all those who favor it pay for it. Those of us know it is another scam, leave us out of it! It is more than what they are telling us; and we should not pay for anything for the rest of our lives….life GA-400 which we should not. Because some have long morning and evening commuting to and from work……..that was alway in the picture, you all just went on and took those jobs. There is already money set aside for this mass transportation, they did not tell us that, then they want to stack more for the GA Dome portion; more for downtown within the old and new dome to raise revenue on your money you pay thinking it is for the highways or to “Unite Atlanta.” This will be your taxes 10 years and beyond……..can you afford it having a family and other bills that you can’t pay already. To many lies has been told verse the truth that should have been at the forefront. My vote is no.
I have not going to do somthing that is going to affect me for the rest of my life….we are not making enough to support our families and they want us to give more for their benefits and to keep their 6 figures in tact. Why not just tell us how much you really have in stockpile!
Sheila
July 25th, 2012
10:09 am
Sure are a lot of developers and contractors on the pro SPLOST list!
Rightwing Troll
July 25th, 2012
10:14 am
“Wonder if the dems hadn’t obstructed Georgie on his F/F reform would we even be in this mess??”
Considering how everything else turned out that Shrub touched, maybe it was for the best… All the while you teatards stood by screaming HARDER… FASTER…
They BOTH suck
July 25th, 2012
10:16 am
Ring them up Kyle. Also have one blogger calling others “son” on here. Unless they are the father, might be best for them to call bloggers by their blogging name.
On topic: The poll you show seems pretty close. When reading Bookman’s or your blog as well as speaking to people I know, I do not think it will be that close on vote day. I’m going to be surprised if it doesn’t go down by at least 5% pts.
Lynnie Gal
July 25th, 2012
10:20 am
If the state had used the money it raised for projects that actually helped traffic flow instead of spending $$$ on Peach Pass lanes and traffic lights on ramps, people might actually trust them to have a reasonable plan and vote for T-Splost. Didn’t happen. Instead they lined their friends pockets in the industry and squandered our tax money on projects that actually made traffic worse. I’m voting NO.
Rightwing Troll
July 25th, 2012
10:21 am
Tib,
Thank you for the thoughtful and unoffensive reply…
My point was simply this: how can it hurt to look to “green” ways of doing things? Yeah for now it’s expensive, but the costs won’t go down until there is some real investment and effort put into it.
Yes, giving any government entity a blank check and requisite parameters is a bad idea, but as the population grows, we have to mitigate the effect we have on our surroundings. Oil is finite, smog is bad, both of these issues have to addressed. For “conservatives” to go all knee jerk and swoony on the utterance of the word “green” is just sad… It’s possible to be conservative and care for the planet and caring for the planet is not a sign of being a squishy lib…
Rightwing Troll
July 25th, 2012
10:22 am
Sorry.. this:
“Yes, giving any government entity a blank check and requisite parameters is a bad idea”
Should’ve read:
“Yes, giving any government entity a blank check without requisite parameters is a bad idea”
Rightwing Troll
July 25th, 2012
10:25 am
As for T-SPLOST… I’ve endured widening, and “fixes” for traffic along the I-75 corridor for almost three decades now, yet it never gets better. They’re clueless, they just need to Go Fish and quit asking for more money for nothing. The only upside I can see is that it might help with unemployment in the area a tiny bit..
Scott Fresno
July 25th, 2012
10:31 am
Tea Partiers are against it because it has too much mass transit? Sierra Club is against it because it has too little mass transit? WWGLD – What Would Goldilocks Do?
Loki
July 25th, 2012
10:46 am
Kyle,
You hit the nail on the head. I read over the project list the other day, and I did not see any cohesive plan, or overarching vision for the region; it was a bunch of trees without any forest. To me, many of the items on that list were vague, and I did not understand the benefit. Whoever is putting together the message should be let relieved of their duties; I cannot vote for this tax.
Hillbilly D
July 25th, 2012
10:54 am
What about all the German heritage?
Historic footnote: The Angles and Saxons were both Germanic tribes. Old English, which they spoke, was derived from Germanic dialects.
Scott Fresno
July 25th, 2012
11:09 am
Anglo-Saxon. Angled Saxophone. More than coincidence?
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
11:17 am
The message from the pro-tax side has gone something like this:
1. Traffic is bad.
2. Look, there are a lot of projects!
3. In the end, we have to do something.
Kyle–Your argument here is exactly mirrored by the folks who supported both the stimulus and ObamaCare. And in both of those other cases, the action step ( # 2 ) did NOT form a reasonable “bridge” between steps # 1 and # 3. Too many folks are fooled into thinking that doing something, anything is better than no action at all. At some point we have to pay for all of these projects.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 25th, 2012
11:17 am
Troll, I have no problem looking to “green” solutions, as long as it is with my money freely given to those solutions.
It’s having that money taken by force to do so that goes against my grain.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 25th, 2012
11:21 am
” Too many folks are fooled into thinking that doing something, anything is better than no action at all.”
Precisely, Bruno!
That’s why I never ask my elected officials what they’ve done in office, but rather, what laws they’ve tried to get rid of instead. I have zero interest in hearing about all the new restrictions they’ve placed on someone’s freedom.
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
11:22 am
Tea Partiers are against it because it has too much mass transit? Sierra Club is against it because it has too little mass transit? WWGLD – What Would Goldilocks Do?
Scott–In case you missed it, the local chapter of the NAACP has also come out against T-SPLOST, for predictable reasons:
http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2012/07/25/your-morning-jolt-kasim-reed-slams-dekalb-naacp-chief-over-tsplost/
I was glad to see Mayor Reed challenge these tired “racist” arguments.
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
11:31 am
In other “breaking news”, Obama is now defending his strategy of relying strictly on negative attack ads during his campaign.
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/obama-negative-ads-could-1483861.html?cxtype=rss_news_61499
From the article: ‘The president seemed to acknowledge his campaign’s gamble in one of his newest TV ads.
“Sometimes politics can seem very small,” Obama says, as he speaks reassuringly into the camera.’
Sadly, it appears that Romney has also chosen the negative path exclusively as well, with an estimated 93% or so of his ads focused on attacking Obama rather than laying out a positive plan for our country.
JamVet
July 25th, 2012
11:32 am
Re your 9:39, thanks, Kyle.
Although voting one’s conscience is not always popular, I will do so on this matter. That it will almost certainly get shot down quicker than a fellow hunter out with Dick Cheney (LOL!) is not the issue for me.
In my worthless opinion, doing absolutely nothing on a matter of this importance and pretending that there is really isn’t enough of a problem to take any significant action is a really bad option…
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
11:35 am
Since the T-SPLOST discussion has appeared to peter out, does anyone have any suggestions as to how Romney can improve his campaign strategy?? Maybe I’m naive, but I would prefer a mix of about 80% positive ads to only 20% negative ads. Let the other guy be the negative one.
Kyle–As our blog leader, could you possibly develop a column along those lines?? Just my uninformed opinion, but I don’t believe that Romney has run an effective campaign so far. Maybe some of the Lefties could chime in to tell us how Romney might possibly improve his message.
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
11:40 am
Re your 9:39, thanks, Kyle.
Maybe we should re-title Rule #2 “The JamVet Rule” since it specifically mentions you, buddy.
For the life of me, I can’t figure out why anyone would go after you personally, you being the paragon of positivity that you are.
On a serious note, I mildly challenged Logic a time or two about his over-the-line comments, but he wouldn’t budge. Kinda sad.
DawgDad
July 25th, 2012
11:42 am
“Tea Partiers are against it because it has too much mass transit? Sierra Club is against it because it has too little mass transit?”
TSPLOST is primarily an attempt to get suburban taxpayers to pay for development benefitting inner-city constuencies who aren’t willing to pay for these things themselves. MARTA, trolleys, Beltlines, etc. are NOT essential infrastructure serving the broad interests of the region as the region is currently defined. I mean, you might as well ask me to vote on the “bridge to nowhere” in Alaska, my interest in ponying up this tax is the same for that effort as TSPLOST. Not to mention the HARM TSPLOST will do in constraining opportunity, which is recognized by both the Sierra Club and Tea Party from their respective perspectives.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
July 25th, 2012
11:43 am
Sandy Weill — the creator of Citigroup, the ur-mastermind of Too-Big-To-Fail banking, the man most responsible for repealing Glass-Steagall — now thinks that the big banks should be broken up.
salon.com
Go figure. These banking a-wipes ruminate and the taxpayers pay for it.
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
11:44 am
In my worthless opinion, doing absolutely nothing on a matter of this importance and pretending that there is really isn’t enough of a problem to take any significant action is a really bad option…
Jam–Again, I believe taking no action at all is preferable to taking an obviously wrong path. With the economy as bad as it is, I just can’t justify sucking more money out of the hands of consumers in order to fund a laundry list of dubious “improvements” right now.
Hillbilly D
July 25th, 2012
11:45 am
Just my uninformed opinion, but I don’t believe that Romney has run an effective campaign so far.
I think it’s been pretty much McCain 2.0, for whatever that’s worth.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
July 25th, 2012
11:46 am
Isn’t this so typical of the tax and spenders, blow a big load of cash and get absolutely nothing out of it?
bu2
July 25th, 2012
11:50 am
@Ank
The supporters are just tone deaf. Your arguments are exactly why people should vote against.
We shouldn’t settle for poor results. We shouldn’t accept waste and theft. We shouldn’t vote for something because it is “progressive” but because it actually accomplishes something.
Voting yes says that you are ok with incompetent, dishonest politicians and developers taking your money for their own personal benefit. Voting yes says you are ok with spending billions on something that does very little (and billions of it do nothing) to relieve congestion. Voting yes says you are ok with a plan that pushes problems 10 years down the road ($74 million in annual maintenance per GRTA in year 11-based on today’s $-are unfunded). Voting yes is saying you are ok with politicians telling you they are doing something for transportation when much of what they are doing is just displacing existing maintenance $ (see Atlanta’s list for its 15% of the pie) and building sidewalks and funding current operating costs of buses and rail systems.
They argue economic development and no plan B, but don’t argue congestion relief, because they don’t care about that and didn’t consider that in designing the list. Some of the projects will increase congestion. And they are ok with that-SLOWING auto traffic speeds was one of the positive criteria in evaluating projects.
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
11:50 am
I think it’s been pretty much McCain 2.0, for whatever that’s worth.
HD–I’m not sure I would even give him that much credit. At least McCain had his record as a war hero to run on. Of course, it’s hard to believe that Romney could pick a worse running mate than McCain did.
The only thing that gives me any hope right now is how close McCain made it in the end despite his poor campaign. Given Bush’s unpopularity in 2008, it was pretty well guaranteed that the Dem was going to win. Having said that, I’m still scratching my head as to how Obama beat out Hillary.
Common Cents
July 25th, 2012
11:53 am
Bruno
“Too many folks are fooled into thinking that doing something, anything is better than no action at all.”
While I whole-heartedly agree with your comment, the problem in the past has been the Republican willful denial that there is a problem. The reason that we are stuck with this Obamanation health care legislation is our position that there was no sense of urgency to deal with the problem. As we go forward, as my mother used to say “Doing the wrong thing is no better than doing nothing” BUT we have to be willing to confront issues that, in the past, we have allowed to linger and stagnate because we were not directly affected by them.
Hillbilly D
July 25th, 2012
11:57 am
Bruno
McCain was running against Obama, when Obama was basically an unknown quantity. This time he’s a known quantity, so in my opinion, most people have their mind made up whether they want him back or not. The undecideds are where it always swings and so far, Romney hasn’t really done anything to win them over, that I can see.
I think Obama beat Hillary for a couple reasons. Again he was an unknown quantity and she was well known, with high negatives, comparatively speaking. I think some folks just weren’t comfortable with another round of a Clinton White House. She also was more specific on issues, which all candidates really should be but it also alienates folks, which is why they stay as vague as possible.
Hillbilly D
July 25th, 2012
11:59 am
Common Cents
That’s a good point but most folks don’t worry about fire until they see flames. It’s just human nature. A lot of folks never do today, what they can put off until tomorrow.
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
11:59 am
BUT we have to be willing to confront issues that, in the past, we have allowed to linger and stagnate because we were not directly affected by them.
Common Cents–I guess conservatives are by nature “conservative”, i.e. more willing to stick with the status quo rather than venturing out on a course of change that might make things worse.
I’m not sure who will step up to the plate, but from my perspective, the Repubs have been sorely lacking effective leadership for quite some time now. Which is too bad for America, since ultimately we need balance.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
July 25th, 2012
12:02 pm
Most presidents have something under the hood – wit, warmth, approachability, something. Even the most liberal football fan could enjoy watching an NFL game with George Bush. And even a Klansman probably would have found some of LBJ’s jokes funny. The biggest office in the world requires someone who buzzes with enough personality to fill the job, and most of them have it.
But Romney doesn’t buzz with anything. His vision of humanity is just a million tons of meat floating around in a sea of base calculations. He’s like a teenager who stays up all night thinking of a way to impress the prom queen, and what he comes up with is kicking a kid in a wheelchair. Instincts like those are probably what made him a great leveraged buyout specialist, but in a public figure? Man, is he a disaster. It’s really incredible theater, watching the Republicans talk themselves into this guy.
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/romneys-free-stuff-speech-is-a-new-low-20120713#ixzz21ePE8BMo
Dusty
July 25th, 2012
12:02 pm
Well, there are two sides to every opinion. I would say that Logic is a keen observer and presenter of free speech. But some get to practice their free speech and others do not. Now that is sad!
I know! This is Kyle’s blog and his decision. Now let us sing together Kum By Ya while everyone “behaves”.!
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
12:05 pm
I think some folks just weren’t comfortable with another round of a Clinton White House.
During the Clinton years, I was turned off by his obvious personal failings, yet was happy about the direction our country took overall. Of course, I give Newt and the Republican Contract For America most of the credit for that. Bill was smart enough to go along with the program, all the while keeping his base happy with meaningless rhetoric.
On a personal level, I see Hillary as much more of an ideologue, but figured she learned something while watching Bill work his magic for 8 years. With Obama, we had to go back to square 1 while he got his on-the-job training. Differently from Bill, however, he doesn’t seem to have benefited from that training in the least. It’s all about finger-pointing with Obama, which disgusts me to no end.
Hillbilly D
July 25th, 2012
12:08 pm
Bruno
Bill Clinton was smart enough to co-opt the positions of his opponents. That left them with pretty much nothing to run on. He understands the game probably better than anybody in my lifetime, along with Reagan. They both knew how to get what they wanted and just when to push and when to back off.
Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed
July 25th, 2012
12:08 pm
Every now and again, I’d like to read something original out of Finn McCool’s keyboard, rather than a cut-and-paste opinion by someone else.
I mean, why participate in a blog at all if all you post is someone else’s work?
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
12:09 pm
Now let us sing together Kum By Ya while everyone “behaves”.!
Dusty–In case you were unaware, JamVet and I are friends away from the blog. Trust me in knowing that he is a good person. You need to come party with us sometime.
Common Cents
July 25th, 2012
12:11 pm
Hillbilly:
“That’s a good point but most folks don’t worry about fire until they see flames. It’s just human nature. A lot of folks never do today, what they can put off until tomorrow.”
While that may have been a position that we had the luxury of taking in the past, in the current political climate what has gone on cannot go forward. Until we start coming up with VIABLE alternatives to these half-baked, ridiculous plans we will continue to be led down a path that will eventually destroy what has been a great country.
Dusty
July 25th, 2012
12:12 pm
Finn,
You do realize that you are using BUSH again for your arguments, most of which are misguided since Democrats did nothing but “spit” on Bush for eight years starting with their legally lost election with Gore.
the basic ideas on voting for the next president are basic for me. If you want a man who will spend every cent in the USA and some in China, vote for Obama. If you want a man who knows how to work in a broken down economy, vote for Romney. I don’t care if Romney fires “sparklers” while Obama is shooting off sky rockets, I want someone who can govern with good experience.
GOOD EXPERIENCE !
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
12:13 pm
Bill Clinton was smart enough to co-opt the positions of his opponents. That left them with pretty much nothing to run on. He understands the game probably better than anybody in my lifetime, along with Reagan. They both knew how to get what they wanted and just when to push and when to back off.
As I’ve mentioned before, I give Reagan credit for turning me into a conservative. Previously, I had helped campaign for Jimmy Carter.
Any Libs here like The Gipper??
Hillbilly D
July 25th, 2012
12:14 pm
Common Cents
I agree with you but I don’t see it happening. I think we’re in the beginning of our long slow decline. That’s pretty much how the cycle works, throughout history.
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
12:16 pm
Until we start coming up with VIABLE alternatives to these half-baked, ridiculous plans we will continue to be led down a path that will eventually destroy what has been a great country.
Great point, CC. Until the Repubs come up with something better, I guess we don’t have much room to complain. If I were in charge of healthcare reform, I’m sure I could come up with a much better plan than ObamaCare. Unfortunately, no one from the RNC has contacted me yet……
Hillbilly D
July 25th, 2012
12:17 pm
Unfortunately, no one from the RNC has contacted me yet……
Yeah but you moved and left no forwarding address.
independent thinker
July 25th, 2012
12:18 pm
Kyle at 11:05:
“”"”"’I’m not sure that will suffice for Romney. If it would, he would be up big in the polls right now. He has to prove himself as a credible alternative first.”"”"”
Very well said for a right wing conservative. I believe his credibility is less than Obama. .
Romney hammers Obama for commenting inartfully about government role in assisting business start ups. Then Romney turns right around and gives a speech in which he says the same thing about infrastructure and government assistance. No wonder he has no credibility. And lets not talk about his taxes and his claim he he has a track record as the job creator. Of course Obama has his flaws too but he has a track record of doing things he said he would do like ending the idiotic and wasteful war in Iraq and beating Al Quaida. I do not believe his credibility is as much an issue.
Sure would love to have you expand on why Romney has a credibility issue.
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
12:18 pm
I think we’re in the beginning of our long slow decline. That’s pretty much how the cycle works, throughout history.
C’mon, HD, you’re starting to sound like a cranky old man.
I wish I had more faith in our young people, but they seem too busy texting to think about any larger issues.
Hillbilly D
July 25th, 2012
12:21 pm
Bruno
I am a cranky old man. Why do you think I live in the woods?
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
12:21 pm
Yeah but you moved and left no forwarding address.
That was on purpose…….
I just got back on the “no-call” list, so hope to cut out these annoying telemarketing calls I keep getting at my new phone number. I mean, who ever heard of area code 170?? I keep getting a bunch of calls originating from wherever that is.
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
12:23 pm
Why do you think I live in the woods?
You’d probably like the section of Jersey I grew up in. Just on the edge of the Pine Barrens. My girl, PB and I are heading up there in a few weeks. My little sis booked us a suite at the Borgata using her comp points. Looking forward to getting in a few poker tournaments.
md
July 25th, 2012
12:26 pm
“We are part of an Anglo-Saxon heritage, and he feels that the special relationship is special. The White House didn’t fully appreciate the shared history we have.
How racist is that? What about all the German heritage? The Italian heritage? The Russian?, the African? the Asian?”
The above was in reference to the relationship with the UK…..not Germany, not Italy, not Russia, not Africa, and not Asia………..
JohnnyReb
July 25th, 2012
12:27 pm
“I believe his (Romney) credibility is less than Obama. .”
What planet is that from? Everything is known about Romney. He can produce his birth certificate, college transcripts, etc, etc. His life has been an open book. Obama’s word is mud; his intentions cloaked, and his records sealed. Obama’s true idiology and intentions come out when he is away from the teleprompter.
Obama’s credibility does not make a pimple on Mitt’s rear. Lib’s are wishful thinking.
Hillbilly D
July 25th, 2012
12:28 pm
Bruno
I passed through NJ once on a train but it was at night, so I really haven’t seen anything there. I’d like to see every state once.
A hot tip on your phone calls, no area code in North America begins with a 1.
md
July 25th, 2012
12:29 pm
“Considering how everything else turned out that Shrub touched, maybe it was for the best… All the while you teatards stood by screaming HARDER… FASTER…”
Interesting comment……not sure how one equates calling for reform of F/F with “harder/faster”, but there it is.
Bruno
July 25th, 2012
12:35 pm
How racist is that? What about all the German heritage?
md–If I remember my history correctly, the Angles and the Saxons were both Germanic tribes.
Out of curiosity, what did the Italians ever do for us?? Past Galileo, that is…..
Hillbilly D
July 25th, 2012
12:38 pm
what did the Italians ever do for us?
They gave us Yogi Berra’s parents. We owe them big time for that.
Dusty
July 25th, 2012
12:39 pm
BRUNO 12:09
Please don’t suggest that I don’t know too well some of the personalities presented on these blogs. It is old stuff with some of the controversial ones. They’ve tried (with poor results) to be outstanding rebels of a raucous sort.
As to get togethers, thanks but no thanks. Conversation is usually interesting here. An exchange of thoughts is why I come here.. Nothing more.
Why Romney needs to talk about himself | Kyle Wingfield
July 25th, 2012
12:40 pm
[...] mentioned in a brief comment yesterday that Mitt Romney has to do more than attack President Obama’s record if he’s [...]
md
July 25th, 2012
12:42 pm
“Just my uninformed opinion, but I don’t believe that Romney has run an effective campaign so far.”
He may have his hands tied a bit at the moment. He used his “primary” money getting through a tough primary. Now, he can’t use his “presidential” funds until after the convention. I think he is stuck in stall mode until the funds are freed up. And with that said, he hasn’t lost ground to Obama so it may get interesting when he comes out blazing after the convention while Obama is running through his own funds.
Jefferson
July 25th, 2012
12:43 pm
Why in the world do you GOP lovers keep bringing folk like Romney, who is hiding tons of money arounds the world, just opem for spin and enuendo, nothing but trouble ? Why — is there not anyone you folks won’t sell out to ?
md
July 25th, 2012
12:44 pm
“md–If I remember my history correctly, the Angles and the Saxons were both Germanic tribes.”
I understand that, but Romney’s comment was in reference to the “relationship” between the US and UK, not the underlying makeup of each.
md
July 25th, 2012
12:46 pm
“Why — is there not anyone you folks won’t sell out to ?”
That’s a bit rich coming from a party that just took over healthcare…….
iggy
July 25th, 2012
12:58 pm
Being as I work from home, my commute is about all of 5 seconds. And even if I drove the 25 miles everyday I would still vote NO TSplost.
Mr_B
July 25th, 2012
1:02 pm
“Out of curiosity, what did the Italians ever do for us?? Past Galileo, that is…..”
Well they did provide the basis for most of our language that doesn’t come from Anglo-Saxon.
iggy
July 25th, 2012
1:12 pm
The mob!
Dusty
July 25th, 2012
1:32 pm
Mr. B,@1:02
We need Josef over here to join in the language discussion. I see you refer to Latin which I did not “take to” like a duck to water. But it surely did help with medical terms.
I once worked in a lab where a new blood analyzer was installed. The pathologists said” let’s have a naming contest”. I won with the “name” Sanguinannie. I heard a lot of “What?” Seems only the pathologists liked it. Oh well. My claim to fame and I didn’t even get a prize.
They BOTH suck
July 25th, 2012
4:02 pm
Bruno
From tour post earlier, I think you are correct. Romney needs to be telling people what he will do vs what Obama hasn’t done, etc.
Regardless of how people see it, the Pres always gets too much credit or blame for the economy. That is nothing new in how campaigns play out or how people see what is going on.
Debates imo will send Romney to victory or send him home. Either way it will not be a whooping like McCain was administered. Going to be close regardless who wins.
I see an 04 coming. A President with less than 50% approval but still winning the WH.
Neal Smith
July 26th, 2012
9:47 am
You are correct on your list of three reasons to pass TSPLOST. However, your critique fails to mention the obvious reasons for likely failure should it pass.
1. There is no competent group inside or outside Atlanta to oversee such a project. There is not the intellectual horsepower in any state or local government to oversee, coordinate, and integrate such a project.
2. So long as anyone under the gold dome has anything to do with transportation lobbyists will have a field day. Lobbying is legal influence peddling, plain and simple. Just look at Georgia Power and Plant Vogtle. Need I say more?
3. Commuters in Atlanta could really care less about the quality of life in Atlanta, so long as their commute is made easier. Lost is the understanding of the importance of the larger good. The mindset is give it all to me and after I get all I can possibly use, hoard, or hide, then I might consider letting some trickle off my plate.
In sum, so long as lobbyists have free reign the rich will get richer…