Taking a look at some T-SPLOST claims

The closer we get to the July 31 T-SPLOST referendum, it seems, the more claims we hear from the pro-tax campaign about its supposed benefits. Here’s the low-down on four common claims made about the $7.2 billion tax and the 157 projects it would fund.

1. Metro Atlanta commuters already pay a “congestion tax” of $924 a year.

This figure, taken from a study by the Texas Transportation Institute, accounts for the cost of wasting fuel and time in traffic. T-SPLOST supporters argue this is an indirect “tax” on commuters, and that the 1 percent sales tax will mitigate it.

Perhaps. But they don’t acknowledge the average household stands to pay more if the T-SPLOST passes.

Commuters aren’t the only people who would pay the sales tax, so let’s look at households. Based on Census data about commuters (see page 29) and household size in the 10-county region, the household “congestion tax” would be $986 a year. A study by the Atlanta Regional Commission found the projects funded by the tax would cut congestion by 24 percent at most. So, we can expect the household “congestion tax” to fall by no more than 24 percent, or $237.

Given state revenue estimates (see second table), each household’s share of the tax would start at $447.

Of course, visitors would pay some of the $447. But if residents foot even half the bill, the savings from the “congestion tax” is just a wash. If residents bear a larger share of the burden, the T-SPLOST plus the remaining “congestion tax” will cost more than what tax supporters say we pay now.

2. The T-SPLOST will get you home faster.

The very same data used for the “congestion tax” show congestion adds relatively little to the average commute: up to 10 minutes of the hour a typical commuter spends in the car every day. Sheer distance between home and work accounts for the rest of the time.

If congestion were to fall by 24 percent, then, the average commute would shrink by less than 2.5 minutes a day — only about a minute each way.

3. The T-SPLOST will be an economic boost.

You can’t spend $7.2 billion without improving the economy, right? It’s the same theory, writ small, President Barack Obama used to justify his 2009 “stimulus” package.

But taking money out of one part of the economy and putting it in another is an awfully inefficient path to economic growth — at best. And make no mistake: Money that goes to the T-SPLOST is money that won’t go to local businesses.

Worse, it doesn’t even fit the (questionable) idea of stimulating the economy by moving future consumption into the present. Projected timelines for the projects indicate that, in the first three years, the tax will collect $1.72 billion for regional projects — but spend just $812 million. The other half of the money will be pushed into the future. It’s unlikely the spending would catch up with the tax collections until 2018.

That might be a prudent way to plan infrastructure spending, but it looks like a half-decade drag on the economy.

4. There’s no “Plan B.”

As I’ve argued before, this claim ignores the possibility of voting again on a better project list in two years. In fact, the only thing that truly precludes another option is the T-SPLOST.

That’s because we will have used the biggest available revenue-raising tool. Even if the projects prove ineffective, our only option will be to renew the tax — or find another way to pay the tens of millions of dollars a year in operating costs for the transit projects this tax will create. If we OK this tax, we likely will be stuck with it, and without other options, for decades.

– By Kyle Wingfield

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368 comments Add your comment

How Inciteful Is That!

July 13th, 2012
6:30 pm

But Kyle!

1) If this is such a bad deal, why is the Governor backing it and how did it ever make its way to a vote?

2) This is a sales tax so it treats everyone equally. The more you consume, the more you pay.

But in all fairness, I would be remiss if I did not mention that I’m voting against it too. If our state elected officials are incapable of doing the job that they were elected to do, then why should we be called on to do it for them, other than vote them out and put more competent individuals in. If our elected officials deem this tax as necessary, they should implement it as law and just explain to their constituencies why it had to be done. Right?

Dave -

July 13th, 2012
7:02 pm

Inciteful: Because the Legislature and corrupt governor don’t have the (baseballs) to do it for fear they will be thrown out of their cush jobs under the gold dome! As for their perks, they are pure a-holes for demanding government workers not take over $25 while they take vacations to Europe, sports tickets, etc. But we the idiots keep voting them and the buffoons in Washington back in to ream us daily. VOTE THEM “OUT, AND VOTE NO TO THE TSPLOST! I already did!

finn mccool

July 13th, 2012
7:03 pm

I’ll read this sometime this weekend. Until then, Kyle, go have some wings and a beer, dude!

finn mccool

July 13th, 2012
7:04 pm

Oh, and, Bush did it and is STILL doing it!

That arse!

finn mccool

July 13th, 2012
7:06 pm

To all you cons who respond:
MAN: I don’t want to talk to you, no more, you empty-headed animal, food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. You mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

GALAHAD: Is there someone else up there we could talk to?

MAN: No. Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.

Hillbilly D

July 13th, 2012
7:13 pm

As y’all know, I don’t live in the Atlanta region but I’m voting no, up here. This thing is a pig in a poke, if there’s ever been one.

Hillbilly D

July 13th, 2012
7:14 pm

And also, if this was really a good idea, would they have to have such a big sales push?

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
7:18 pm

Hope it doesn’t push Kyle’s patience too much, but I gotta put up a song for my sweetie. IMO, he should reward us for a week of on-topic posts (for the most part). ;-)

At any rate, here’s Song With No Words, Tree With No Leaves by David Crosby:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzY2V3vrPYk

PlatinumBlack

July 13th, 2012
7:30 pm

finn — thanks for the MP. Never gets old. Why?

http://youtu.be/yHXw_jf_jH4

Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy

July 13th, 2012
7:41 pm

The way the polls look, maybe they should have saved the money spent promoting this fiasco, and donated it to the DOT. BTW, where did that money come from, if the State is so broke, they can’t fix pot holes?

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
7:43 pm

On topic:

I’ve been told that T-SPLOST will be voted on here in Columbus as well, that it’s not just an Atlanta tax.

Put me down for “No”. I don’t care if anyone says it will be temporary or not, it won’t be. Politicians love getting their hands on our tax money, and always for a “noble cause”. I say make due with what we have….

Hillbilly D

July 13th, 2012
7:44 pm

Rafe

They can always find money for something they really want………….like ads for wanting more money.

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
7:44 pm

Off-topic. For my buddy JamVet, in case he makes his way over here tonight.

Frank Marino with Mahogany Rush, jamming his butt off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OBA-rnjFUQ

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
7:47 pm

HD–Hope you have some musical gems in store. PB and I went to a local barbeque joint last Fri night, and enjoyed some hopping bluegrass. Got them to play “Orange Blossom Special”, but they hadn’t quite mastered “Russian Lullaby” yet. They said that they’ll work on it.

Hillbilly D

July 13th, 2012
7:49 pm

Bruno

Yes, the state is divided into different regions, so we all vote on it, although Atlanta is getting all the press, especially on the AJC sites. There are 12 different regions across the state. In my region, and it looks that way other places, too, the only folks who appear to be for it are local politicians and the Chamber of Commerce.

In most of the non-Metro regions, a couple of big counties can vote it in for the whole region, if the vote falls right, which is one of the many reasons that I’[m opposed to it.

Hillbilly D

July 13th, 2012
7:50 pm

Bruno

A hot tip for you, most all fiddle players hate playing “Orange Blossom Special”. lol

PlatinumBlack

July 13th, 2012
7:57 pm

most all fiddle players hate playing “Orange Blossom Special”. lol

Bruno felt that their rendition was only worth 50 cents per each of the four band members. I pitched in for their trouble, though…

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
8:01 pm

HD–I’m sure I put this one up at some point in the past, but give a listen to this one. Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodleoo by the Dead. I put the studio version up since all the live versions run 12 mins or so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64pU8w2F6MY

Not sure if you can call this bluegrass or not, but the talent is there.

Ray

July 13th, 2012
8:09 pm

Still voting no. They did not make their case. Appreciate the additional info, Kyle. Thanks.

G Mare

July 13th, 2012
8:12 pm

Enter your comments here

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
8:13 pm

Garcia/Grisman’s beautiful version of “Russian Lullaby”:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp7LXL3qtFA

Still hoping that Kyle will tolerate some serenading. At the minimum, he’ll expand his musical repertoire.

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
8:14 pm

Hey, G-Mare!! I’m dedicating the song above to you ^^^^^^

Road Scholar

July 13th, 2012
8:15 pm

2. 2.5 min /day X 365= 912.5 min/60=15.2 hours /year or 2 work days saved.

3. $8 billion X 7 (the number of times this money will change hands)=$ 56 billion into the economy for jobs, jobs, jobs !

PS why not sell bonds secured with the tax revenue in year 1 to fast track projects’ construction? Low interest rates! That’s what Sonny did with Fast Forward. Now when can the projects be delivered to construction?

Oh, and how much of the tax will be paid by out of town visitors?

4. “..the possibility of voting again on a better project list in two years.” OK. just who is going to provide consensus on a new project list…in today’s world? Pave! Pave! Pave! Transit is the future, whether you like it or not!

I guess you can just sit in traffic and complain….is that Plan B?

I’m with you on keeping taxes as low as they can be, but to cut your nose off despite your face does not address the issue. Do we need to stop all transportation improvements in the rural suburbs? Do the roads need to start crumbling and the bridges need to fall in before something is done?
I would also like the gas tax to be increased, so, how does a hybrid or electric car owner pay their fair share?

G Mare

July 13th, 2012
8:19 pm

Bruno, good to know that you & PB are alive, well, & posting. Your names are mentioned, sorta, mostly, fondly at Jay’s. :)

Road Scholar

July 13th, 2012
8:19 pm

HD: “And also, if this was really a good idea, would they have to have such a big sales push?”

Education has never been this states’ strength , has it! Just how do you propose to educate the public about the tax/vote?

G Mare

July 13th, 2012
8:19 pm

VOTE NO! PLEASE!

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
8:23 pm

Bruno, good to know that you & PB are alive, well, & posting. Your names are mentioned, sorta, mostly, fondly at Jay’s.

Well, G-Mare, my theory is that if you don’t pick up a few detractors along the way, you’re just not trying hard enough!! ;-)

Hillbilly D

July 13th, 2012
8:23 pm

Road Scholar

I think the public is smarter than you give them credit for. That’s why this thing isn’t looking good.

G Mare

July 13th, 2012
8:23 pm

Hey back, Bruno. Thanks for the song.

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
8:27 pm

Should I feel bad that Ricky Scaggs could play better at 7 years old than I can in my 50s??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhvDvMV4_FY

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
8:32 pm

I think the public is smarter than you give them credit for. That’s why this thing isn’t looking good.

In case you forgot, HD, high-falutin’ Libs like Road Scholar don’t respect the opinions of the unwashed masses. Just ain’t got no education, us dumb hicks……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjkpI6jfR6g

Steve Dunbar

July 13th, 2012
8:35 pm

We get it. Republicans are opposed to T-SPLOST. It is a tax and Republicans are opposed to all
taxes. You can’t be in favor of some and opposed to others. The faithful must stand firm against all taxes.

The question then becomes, what will Republicans do to address the transportation needs of a growing metropolitan area. And the answer is, they don’t want to do anything. Plain and simple.
Let’s have an out-dated, decaying infrastructure. That’s what Rebublicans want, that is what they will have..

PlatinumBlack

July 13th, 2012
8:43 pm

Burnin’ burnin’… must be the kim chee we had tonight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_66L4wdNXw

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
8:50 pm

Let’s have an out-dated, decaying infrastructure. That’s what Rebublicans want, that is what they will have..

Don’t tell me, Steve. You’re in favor of light rail, which no one will use……

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
8:51 pm

One of my favorite violin solos—found in the most unexpected song….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mB9Gqhcelo

Pizzaman

July 13th, 2012
8:52 pm

Ok Repub’s, what’s the story?

What the hell was that “bug” on Mitt’s flag lapel pin on the network news tonight?

Who made the uniforms for the Olympics Mitt ran?

How did Mitt get a Vietnam draft deferment meant for an “ordained” Minister.

Vote early, vote often!

Hillbilly D

July 13th, 2012
8:56 pm

Bruno

Here’s you a fiddle tune. Supposedly the favorite fiddle tune of Thomas Jefferson. Couldn’t find a traditional version but this one isn’t bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX1joQgf6Tg

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
9:02 pm

Here’s you a fiddle tune.

Didn’t know you had any Gypsy blood in you, HD. josef will be proud!!

BTW, you must know your History to know Jefferson’s favorite tune……

Stephenson Billings

July 13th, 2012
9:03 pm

Well, it’s either something like this or higher gas taxes in the future…. ijs…..

BlahBlahBlah

July 13th, 2012
9:04 pm

The idea that $8 billion creates $56 billion in economic activity is a fallacy that has repeatedly been debunked. The money multiplier theory is bunk.

Old Guy

July 13th, 2012
9:06 pm

In metro Atlanta, at least, the decision to break a promise by continuing the collection of tolls on GA 400 has done TSplost in. I see cited that decision more than anything else as a reason not to trust the “politicians” with more tax revenue. The few people who made that decision have long been forgotten, but the effect of it has doomed any effort at transportation improvement for decades.

Hillbilly D

July 13th, 2012
9:06 pm

Bruno

If Josef was here, he might like this tune by one of his fellow Magnolia staters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTr_ZYkZMCs

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
9:07 pm

Here’s Bruce Hornsby’s tribute to Jerry Garcia at the RNR Hall of Fame:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJRLC7SgrN8

Hillbilly D

July 13th, 2012
9:07 pm

Back to the topic

In my region, the T-SPLOST won’t account for 100% of the cost of the listed projects. Surprise, surprise, they’ll be back later wanting more money.

Stephenson Billings

July 13th, 2012
9:10 pm

Plus, I’d prefer something like this which allows each state to raise more of their own money for transportation/infrastructure projects and (hopefully/eventually) wean the state off the federal gov’t money. Most people are unaware that about 75%-80% of the money on an overwhelming majority of transportation construction projects in GA comes from the federal gov’t (everything from interstate projects to little bridges on county roads in the middle of nowhere).

Hillbilly D

July 13th, 2012
9:16 pm

I’m all for weaning transportation projects away from the Feds but one person’s “middle of nowhere” is somebody’s backyard.

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
9:17 pm

But taking money out of one part of the economy and putting it in another is an awfully inefficient path to economic growth — at best. And make no mistake: Money that goes to the T-SPLOST is money that won’t go to local businesses.

One of these days I’ll figure out why Keynesian manipulation of the economy forms the backbone of liberal economic theory. In my view, government projects need to stand on their own merit, and be paid for with money that can be afforded. There’s nothing magical about government expenditures.

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
9:19 pm

HD–Are you sure you’re not from Muskogee?? ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UZUJQ5i8gk

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
9:23 pm

My best friend, who is a major DeadHead, absolutely loves this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWqbazi67Uw&feature=related

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 13th, 2012
9:23 pm

Not another T Splotch.

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
9:27 pm

AmVet

July 13th, 2012
9:28 pm

Thanks, B.

A great axeman and under-appreicated band.

Hiya, PB!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8C7bupfY9s

PlatinumBlackAsTheNight

July 13th, 2012
9:30 pm

Was just wondering now what kind of music our host likes… I get a Trent Reznor vibe from him.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 13th, 2012
9:33 pm

Stephenson Billings

July 13th, 2012
9:34 pm

“I’m all for weaning transportation projects away from the Feds but one person’s “middle of nowhere” is somebody’s backyard.”

Hence the different regions.Anyways, I was just pointing out how much federal money flows to the state for transportation projects and that it has a bigger reach than most people know. It’s all public record but not something people research. If, as most of the conservatives that frequent this blog…and live in Georgia, are successful in November in getting more R’s in Congress and, hopefully, the POTUS, and attempt to bring the federal budget under control and cut spending, transportation funding to the states is one thing that may be cut. If that’s the case, we’ll have to get the money from somewhere.

Hillbilly D

July 13th, 2012
9:41 pm

Hence the different regions.

I think that was just a way to try to make the Metro T-SPLOST more palatable to the counties around DeKalb and Fulton. They could point to it and say “this is a statewide thing”. I think they thought somehow, that would make it an easier sell in Metro. They came up with a statewide solution to a Metro problem. In my opinion, they should’ve left the rest of us out of it.

PlatinumBlackAsTheNight

July 13th, 2012
9:42 pm

Hiya, PB!

Hi, Am. Hope you’re weekend is off to a good start.

godless heathen

July 13th, 2012
9:43 pm

Just popped over to say hi. Is this the group hanging out by the back door passing one around?

j$

July 13th, 2012
9:45 pm

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
9:46 pm

Aahhh, music night

What are you trying to say, Reporter??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VPLOVJ0u94

JamVet–Special dedication to you earlier tonight. Some awesome Mahogany Rush.

JamVet

July 13th, 2012
9:47 pm

Well, given the recent change, it would seem that the obvious name change is in order. (Because it’s all about congruency between on-line personae, right?!)

Yep, PB, livin’ large. Hope you two are too…

heathen, shhhhhhhh! (There’s a bunch of Republicans here!)

I’m not certain how cool dad is gonna be with all this hippie music, anyway.

Great choice, mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!

Back at ya…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLSAGnHNqGc

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
9:47 pm

Is this the group hanging out by the back door passing one around?

Yeah, so quit bogarting, heathen. ;-)

Stephenson Billings

July 13th, 2012
9:49 pm

Well there’s more to the state than just the metro region. The DOT defines “metro” areas as areas with more than 50,000 people. Since 2000, we’ve added 3 or 4 new “metro” regions and none of them were near metro Atlanta. I’m not sure if any more have been added since the 2010 census. Macon, Savannah, Valdosta, Rome to name a few also have their share of “problems” that are past due being addressed. And speaking to some who live and work in the “rural” areas of the state, they feel as if they’re always left out of the transportation funding and that the metro Atlanta area gets way more than their fair share (even if Georgia is the only state in the US that uses congressional district “balancing” of federal money).

They BOTH suck

July 13th, 2012
9:50 pm

They BOTH suck

July 13th, 2012
9:52 pm

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORPMkWtVclo&feature=relmfu

They BOTH suck

July 13th, 2012
9:52 pm

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
9:52 pm

Great to see you, TBS!!

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 13th, 2012
9:56 pm

j$

July 13th, 2012
9:57 pm

They BOTH suck

July 13th, 2012
9:57 pm

Brother Bruno

What’s up dude? Hope PB and yourself enjoyed the Ptree and had a great 4th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ddD9efO1Hc

They BOTH suck

July 13th, 2012
10:00 pm

PlatinumBlackAsTheNight

July 13th, 2012
10:05 pm

Reporter:

LOL “She was there through my incarceration/ Wanna show my appreciation to the nation”

Love the romance.. :P

They BOTH suck

July 13th, 2012
10:06 pm

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
10:07 pm

What’s up dude? Hope PB and yourself enjoyed the Ptree and had a great 4th.

We tore it up, TBS.

Hate to leave the party early, but I promised PB we would go to the movies tonight. She wants to see “Dark Shadows” for the second time…..Might give us some inspiration for some role playing. ;-)

JamVet

July 13th, 2012
10:08 pm

j$, that was badass.

Bruno

July 13th, 2012
10:09 pm

PlatinumBlackAsTheNight

July 13th, 2012
10:11 pm

She wants to see “Dark Shadows” for the second time…..Might give us some inspiration for some role playing.

Bruno is just psyched because now he has an excuse to streak around the house in his vampire cape…

They BOTH suck

July 13th, 2012
10:12 pm

Dusty

July 13th, 2012
10:12 pm

I aint voting for no T-SPLOST.

I aint playing no music

I aint voting for Obama.

I aint got no tomatoes yet.

It’s Friday the THIRTEENTH! Doncha know?
_______________________________

Well, I’ll feel good tomorrow and even better if the Braves win. (They’re ahead!) In the meantime, goodnight one and all and have fun. I cannot keep my eyes open any longer. Here are some nice little lines from Shakespeare as I drift away……
Love’s arms are peace, ‘gainst rule, ‘gainst sense, ‘gainst shame,
And sweetens, in the suffering pangs it bears,
The aloes of all forces, shocks and fears.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 13th, 2012
10:17 pm

josef

July 13th, 2012
10:24 pm

Ooops….my mistake….posted this down stairs

I hear from next door that I’m being paged. Yes?

josef

July 13th, 2012
10:36 pm

HILLBILLY

Got that! Thanks….

HEY, ALL

Dang, looks like I got two Friday Night Musics to keep up with! Not that that’s such a bad thing…

I’ll have to come back here in the a.m. for a visit…

j$

July 13th, 2012
10:54 pm

j$

July 13th, 2012
11:12 pm

Adam Freidman

July 13th, 2012
11:50 pm

I think the location of business is only confined to certain areas of the metro. I work at the south side of town and see no problem at all. It is time to reinvent our real estate planning and evenly distribute business around the metro instead cramming all into a small region causing traffic mess.

The second is I do not trust our local Politicians at all.

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
12:31 am

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
12:35 am

It is time to reinvent our real estate planning and evenly distribute business around the metro instead cramming all into a small region causing traffic mess.

In case you’re unaware, Adam, you’ve got a whole contingency of Libs who have the exact opposite vision. They think the best developmental model is to cram everyone into a small space and force everyone to use public transportation. They know what’s best, just ask them……

Road Scholar

July 14th, 2012
5:50 am

Bruno, you don’t need to read this since you already can tell what I Think.

SB: There are 15 urban areas in Georgia, based on the Federal law.

Some projects not only rely on the TSPLOST to be accelerated, but also local and federal funds, esp some of the big ticket items. I also would like the Feds to reduce their influence over project selection and the new transportation law appears to go in that direction…more local control. But in 1992 this happened, but the feds then went back to adding dedicated programs without specific funding, thus reducing the states ability to select projects. Some fed spending is needed for Interstate and Nat’l defense hwy projects.

So if TSPLOST does not pass, do we need more transportation funding and how would the projects be selected and paid for?

Jack

July 14th, 2012
6:04 am

I’ll vote no. Even if the money’s collected, there’s no guarantee the dollars woundn’t be spent on other projects. I’d vote for a 1% sales tax to build more jails and hire more police.

Brian Baby

July 14th, 2012
6:07 am

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhwoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Da T-SPLOST only has a third of voter support

No MARTA money :cry:

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 14th, 2012
6:12 am

From CNBC via Georgia Public Policy Foundation’s Friday Facts: “America’s Top States for Business: Texas was ranked No. 1 for business in a CNBC study released this week, while Georgia dropped from fifth place to ninth in the nation, largely because of a drop in its rankings on education and access to capital. Among the various categories, the Peach State finished third for infrastructure and transportation and No. 1 for its workforce. Ahead of Georgia in the Southeast is North Carolina, at No. 4. Trailing Georgia were Tennessee (16), Florida (29), South Carolina (42) and Alabama (38). Rhode Island finished dead last. Read more at http://www.cnbc.com/id/46414199/.

OK, so if we’re considered third in the nation regarding Infrastructure and Transportation as regards our ability to do business, why all the hype on how bad our commutes are?

Somebody isn’t telling us the whole story.

I’m betting it’s the folks who want the money.

Vote NO on TSPLOST.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
6:22 am

I can’t vote no on the T-SPLOST… ’cause I’m voting HELL NO! and looking at doing the same for the politicians who have been behind this thing from day one.

We need some Tea Party-faces to replace the T-SPLOS – ‘R’s

JamVet

July 14th, 2012
6:48 am

We need some Tea Party-faces to replace the T-SPLOS – ‘R’s

Come November, Scott Brown, Joe Walsh and Alan West will be available!

The Tea Party’s “principles”? Delusional gibberish. Sophistry and anti-Americanism.

The lunatic fringe of the GOP’s lunatic fringe…

RW-(the original)

July 14th, 2012
7:01 am

It’s hard to believe that hijacking the thread to turn it into Bookman’s YouTube fest Friday lite doesn’t run afoul of the new “rules” but for you musical groupies a bit of trivia. It was this day in 1967 that The Who began it’s first their first US tour.

They weren’t headliners though. They were the intro act for Herman’s Hermits….I’M Enery the eighth I yam….

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think it was well said upthread, but you need look no further than GA 400 for a reason to vote a resounding no. What isn’t said though is that they didn’t just lie and continue the toll. They decided we were all stupid enough to fall for them ending the toll for one day so they could claim to have kept their promise and then started the toll back up the next day.

Ayn Rant

July 14th, 2012
7:06 am

The striking thing about T_SPLOST is the selfishness and ignorance of the opponents of the proposal. Here is an opportunity to create jobs and infrastructure improvements that will boost the economy immediately and will attract private investment in the future. And, the cost to Georgia citizens is a pittance: a 1% sales tax increase that most people will not even notice.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
7:22 am

To Adam and Bruno thumbs up.

Plan A, Plan B doesn’t matter Kyle. The only Plan that will ever come close to voter satisfaction is an acceptable plan that we voters can, first: End the tax on a date certain by our votes, which means a Constitutional Amendment that will force the issue back onto the ballot regardless of whatever these filthy lurker scumbag politicians want to make us do e.g. The GA 400 toll! ( You Republican who think letting that toll remain in place on 400 was a smart move… get a clue… Georgia voters despise you for extending on that broken promise and broken trust. All future votes on any transportation fee or tax will be a reflection of this disdain.)

Second, goes to dispersing the population lump into less developed areas of lower population. The scope a transportation tax should focus on Statewide growth not just Reeeeeeeeeegional as Roy Barnes wanted. As two pervious post pointed out the way to lower congestion is not to add more congestion. So-called “Smart Growth” is plain dumb. Piling more bodies on top of one another doesn’t make the body count go down, it only make the stack higher and rapid rail or buses only doesn’t change the reality of too many people in too small a space. Yeah call it sprawl for lack of better word to attack but it has a good number of advantages particularly economic ones. Third, make using the existing rail infrastructure and or the “rights of way” to create a Statewide public- private join venture rapid rail system is far SMARTA and efficient than expanding a Gub’ment ran MARTA. I would support a public private rapid rail venture of a design similar to Georgia Rail Authority’s that has been around for ever and a day, even though I realize rail cost three times as much to lay as asphalt.

To reiterate the main point Kyle: Without the absolute ability for we voters to kill this tax on a date certain if we don’t like what has been done or if we simply don’t like the tax, there is little hope to get a T-SPLOST approved by our ballots, regardless of however good are the best laid plans.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
7:29 am

The Tea Party’s “principles”? Delusional gibberish. Sophistry and anti-Americanism.

Considering the low life anti-American scumbag lunatics that made these type of comments one doesn’t have much the fret when it comes time to vote down the T-SPLOST and most socialist liberal candidates running for office in this State.

Get ready to lose again dunkey.

JamVet

July 14th, 2012
7:34 am

Considering the low life anti-American scumbag lunatics that made these type of comments one doesn’t have much the fret when it comes time to vote down the T-SPLOST and most socialist liberal candidates running for office in this State.

Get ready to lose again dunkey.

Ooops!

You have anger management issues, young man.

Worse, you are a scofflaw who cannot even abide by a few simple rules.

1. Anyone who comes onto the blog with personal attacks and little to nothing of substance to say will be banned permanently.

Good luck in finding another forum, Mr. Smith…

@@

July 14th, 2012
7:35 am

These T-Splost columns have taken their toll on me? I’m not desperate enough to accept mediocre.

Bruno:

I’m kinda hamstrung with this 7p.m. shutdown. Unable to respond in a timely manner. Left a response for you on Kyle’s poll question thread.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
7:38 am

JamVet

July 14th, 2012
7:34 am

If what you said in that last comment was true you would have been gone a long time ago.

Oh and anger management isn’t my bag, getting satisfaction watching you lose is.

JamVet

July 14th, 2012
7:49 am

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Mike.

Early morning meltdowns/enraged personal insults are not good for your heart, blood pressure or emotional health.

Hope you can afford Obamacare.

I have yet to decide on this T-SPLOST issue.

The Do Nothings and the haters of our American system of governance will do what they always do. Nothing. So they are to be discounted, out of hand. As always. The fundamental question is will these projects pay dividends for the taxpayers and commuters?

A tough question to answer…

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
7:54 am

Yawn….

Wake me up when the T-SPLOST is voted down: By then brucie will have changed his name again to try and hide another one of his shameful losses. :lol:

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
7:59 am

Meanwhile Kyle…

When a few statesmen or stateswomen decide to get real about transportation expectations and gas tax funding they will probably do well by considering the three things I mentioned, particularly the one that puts the power and control back in the hands of the voters by amendment. Then I’ll put odds on it passing with very little problems.

@@

July 14th, 2012
8:05 am

Has AmVet even commented on the topic?

It would appear not.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 14th, 2012
8:10 am

JamVet: The Do Nothings and the haters of our American system of governance will do what they always do. Nothing.
—————————

What are Obozo and the Democrats doing on unemployment, the deficit/debt, entitlement reform, or the record numbers of folks on welfare?

It happened on Obozo’s watch.

JamVet

July 14th, 2012
8:13 am

JamVet

July 14th, 2012
7:49 am

I have yet to decide on this T-SPLOST issue.

The Do Nothings and the haters of our American system of governance will do what they always do. Nothing. So they are to be discounted, out of hand. As always. The fundamental question is will these projects pay dividends for the taxpayers and commuters?

A tough question to answer…

A scant 16 minutes before that silly @@ post…

carlosgvv

July 14th, 2012
8:16 am

There is only one claim I would believe:

“T-SPLOST tax revenues will go to politicians and will be mostly used by them for their pet pork projects. If any of you think this tax money will go where it’s supposed to, you are truly mindless”

JamVet

July 14th, 2012
8:19 am

What are Obozo and the Democrats doing on unemployment, the deficit/debt, entitlement reform, or the record numbers of folks on welfare?

You tell me.

I am not sure how many Republicans are unemployed, receiving any number of entitlements and /oron welfare.

It has got to be a huge number though…

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 14th, 2012
8:20 am

I think you already know the answer, JamVet.

Obozo and the Democrats are the “Do Nothings” you speak of. Thank you for identifying the disease.

The cure comes in November.

Don Abernethy

July 14th, 2012
8:22 am

Do you really think this tax money will be used for roads etc and not end up in the pockets of those who are pushing to get it passed????

JamVet

July 14th, 2012
8:27 am

BB, prepare yourself for a second consecutive McCaining.

Seriously.

This RINO is the weakest candidate that the GOP has nominated in my lifetime. (And there have been some real stinkers!) He is destined to be a footnote in Barry’s biography.

And though I wouldn’t vote for the All Time Champion Flip Flopper in ten lifetimes, I will vote against the incumbent.

(You figure it out!)

OK, I’d love to discuss these matters more, but I’ve got a jam packed and great weekend ahead, some work (being the good capitalist that I am) and some play and must say adieu.

Play nice, everyone…

@@

July 14th, 2012
8:55 am

I have yet to decide on this T-SPLOST issue.

The fundamental question is will these projects pay dividends for the taxpayers and commuters?

A tough question to answer…

AmVet, assuming his position in that marked area of roadway known as a safety zone.

The bus stops here/there/nowhere for AmVet.

schnirt

How Inciteful Is That!

July 14th, 2012
8:59 am

Amvet,

Did you leave @@ stranded at the alter or something?

Don't Tread

July 14th, 2012
9:29 am

Thanks for the analysis, Kyle. It just reinforces my decision to vote NO (made a long time ago).

Whirled Peas

July 14th, 2012
9:53 am

Somebody please explain to me why Republicans are supporting this pig with lipstick? Once upon a time I could count on Republicans to support small government. Now it seems they just want an turn with their snots at the public trough. Here piggy, piggy, piggy.

JDW

July 14th, 2012
10:10 am

Come on Kyle, at least have the decency to put out the facts from the economic analysis.
For example

The estimate is that the $8.5 billion collected and spent will generate $34.75 in added GRP…thats a 4 to 1 return.

The measure will add 200,000 jobs…not that we need any of those around here.

34,000 of those jobs will be in construction…not that that sector needs any help

Rather than “costing” us money the measure will actually ADD $18 billion in personal income.

http://www.metroatlantatransportationvote.com/documents/economic_analysis.pdf

I can also make the point that EVERY major business group in the state supports the measure.

But thanks to the myopic view of the “Gubment is BAD” crowd…yep that’s the bunch that you are lending your voice to…looks like we will pass on the opportunity to inject a bit of life into the region. You know the very same region that has been run into the ground for the last 10 years. The one that once led the nation in economic opportunity and now is a laggard.

No worries Dallas, Charlotte, Austin etc… are all standing by to benefit.

ragnar danneskjold

July 14th, 2012
10:42 am

Good analysis, compliments.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
10:51 am

The Do Nothings and the haters of our American system of governance will do what they always do. Nothing. So they are to be discounted, out of hand. As always. The fundamental question is will these projects pay dividends for the taxpayers and commuters?

Is brucie aware that Vincent Fort and the NAACP are against his prized transportation tax puppie as “The Do Nothings and the haters of our American system of governance” ? :roll:

Tells you something about how far off the idiot wall this crap T-SPLOST really is and the defenders thereof when the Tea Party, Rep Vincent Fort and The NAACP are all steadfastly against it, even if their reasons for opposition differ.

Now, want to talk about who delusional the unhinged fringe is on this loser issue?

ITPer

July 14th, 2012
10:57 am

As someone who lives within five miles of my workplace, there’s no way I’m paying more in taxes to further subsidize the suburban McMansion dwellers who will use all these infrastructure improvements. Increase gasoline taxes (minimal impact to me) and let those who do all the commuting pay their fair share.

@@

July 14th, 2012
11:12 am

Inciteful:

According to AmVet’s own post (awhile back) he’s only attracted to “sweet little numbers”.

I am not sweet, little (5′10″ over six in heels) or a number. He never would have made it through my front door, much less the alter.

JDW

July 14th, 2012
11:14 am

Just to make the point a bit more clear…in 2002 the Republican Party won the Georgia Governors Office and Legislature. At the end of 2002 the Metro Atlanta area was ranked 63 of 200 in economic performance. Lets look at what has happened since shall we…

2003 ranked 77 out of 200
2004 ranked 72 out of 200
2005 ranked 118 out of 200
2006 ranked no data
2007 ranked 86 out of 200
2008 ranked 59 out of 200
2009 ranked 106 out of 200
2010 ranked 126 out of 200
2011 ranked 145 out of 200

http://bestcities.milkeninstitute.org/bestcities2011.taf?rankyear=2011&type=rank200

It’s not too hard to figure out that this area has gone in the wrong direction ever since and yet we keep on marching down that road to nowhere….why?

td

July 14th, 2012
11:36 am

JDW

July 14th, 2012
11:14 am

If your numbers are true then why is there more and more companies and people moving to the metro Atlanta area each and everyday. Can you please get this word out in NY, Chicago and Ohio so that the invasion from the north will stop?

Don

July 14th, 2012
11:40 am

We should never have gotten to the point that we are being asked to tax ourselves. We elect representatives to figure this stuff out for us. They are charged with figuring out the state’s budget, taxation and spending. They have abdicated that responsibility and put their work on us. They couldn’t even figure out how to put together a simple regional transit oversight board! They are going to come up with alternatives?

There is no plan B. There COULD be a plan B, but remember who has to come up with one? They are not capable. We never should have gotten to “plan A”. Virtually nothing has happened over the past eight years. How can we reasonably expect the same gang in Atlanta to do something now?

A rejection of T-SPLOST will be read as the people are against any new tax and/or tax increase – forever, to no need to propose a new list of projects, “the people have spoken!”

Ten years from now, when Atlanta has stagnated and the state is in constant budget crisis mode, nobody will think is was from a lack transportation infrastructure – they’ll probably just blame MARTA!

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 14th, 2012
11:41 am

“The Tea Party’s “principles”? Delusional gibberish. Sophistry and anti-Americanism.”

1. Anyone who comes onto the blog with personal attacks and little to nothing of substance to say will be banned permanently.

If your initial post, AmVet, isn’t the very definition of a personal attack containing nothing of substance, then nothing is. Not only that, but grossly repetitive on your part and as usual, completely inaccurate, as no one who works for, or serves their country in the cause of freedom could be considered anit-American. It’s a shame you’ve forgotten that little principle in your years of hatred for this nation as you sit back while being supported by it.

Good luck in finding another forum, AmVet.

md

July 14th, 2012
11:43 am

“So, we can expect the household “congestion tax” to fall by no more than 24 percent, or $237.”

And that’s also assuming the projects reduce congestion for 100% of the population…..it won’t.

So the true cost to those still stuck in traffic will be the $986 PLUS the new tax.

Bob Loblaw

July 14th, 2012
11:49 am

The idea that you will be “stuck” with this tax after 10 years is total bullsh!t.

Don

July 14th, 2012
11:50 am

The gang in Atlanta has spent a ton of money down state…more green lines in GA than any other state in the region. Take a look!

http://www.ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/freight_analysis/nat_freight_stats/images/hi_res_jpg/nhspeakperdcong2035.jpg

JDW

July 14th, 2012
11:51 am

@TD…”If your numbers are true then why is there more and more companies and people moving to the metro Atlanta area each and everyday. ”

There aren’t, relative to the rest of the world. If there were our unemployment and growth rates would be better than the national average and they are worse. The numbers are simple…for someone that reads them

yuzeyurbrane

July 14th, 2012
11:55 am

Kyle, I support you on this one although I do not agree with all of your logic, especially the value of demand stimulative economics. On that point, I would support infrastructure expenditures that are bona fide and fairly financed, full implementation of Obamacare to get over $35 billion into Georgia economy from the Feds, to improve the health of 1.9 million uninsured Georgians, and to save about 33% of Georgia’s hospitals from having to close, etc. We disagree on those programs but at least you are being philosophically consistent. Just not pragmatic enough for a poor state.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
12:01 pm

Tiberius – pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 14th, 2012
11:41 am

This person’s stock and trade is personal attack comments of no substance. As I stated before, when this person got mad and attacked Dusty… this hypocrite calling anyone else an insulter, let alone a “serial insulter” kicks the dog in the head.

If anyone should be permanently booted off these blogs, this poster you referred to Tiberius certainly belongs at the top of the list.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
12:13 pm

What’s amazing is that a couple of poster at the most are absolutely brain-dead when it comes to what is being rejected, Kyle.

Improving infrastructure and transportation are not what is being rejected here. It is this lame arse Carte Blanche tax that will never go back before the voters for approval to end or extend it and the projects specified to be funded that are being rejected.

Uh Oh

July 14th, 2012
12:16 pm

“this hypocrite calling anyone else an insulter” @ 12:01

“What’s amazing is that a couple of poster at the most are absolutely brain-dead” @ 12:13

Hypocrite much. Look in the mirror Mr INSULTER.

too funny

:-)

JDW

July 14th, 2012
12:23 pm

@TD…educate yourself…

“Over the last three years, essentially since the recession began, the 10-county region has added approximately 91,000 people. To put this into perspective, during the fast-growing 1990s and the 2000 decade, the Atlanta region routinely added 100,000 new residents each year.”

http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%20Library/Info%20Center/Newsletters/Regional%20Snapshots/Population/RS_Pop_Aug2011.pdf

Just Say No to New Taxes

July 14th, 2012
12:33 pm

I will never vote for a tax that funds MARTA with Cobb County tax dollars!

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 14th, 2012
12:35 pm

134 comments, and the ONLY comment made by the poster known as “Uh Oh”, is (as usual) not on the subject at all, but rather, made specifically at another poster.

I post this as both an informational message to others on this blog, and as another in the the case I am building for our host, that “Uh Oh” is not here to encourage discussion on the issues, but to engage in negative commentary specifically addressed towards the other bloggers he or she doesn’t like.

Therefore violating the following rule on a regular basis:

“1. Anyone who comes onto the blog with personal attacks and little to nothing of substance to say will be banned permanently.”

I would politely suggest to the blogger known as “Uh Oh” to up their game and actually post something – anything – of substance on this, and future topics. The case being made that approximately 90% of all your posts being of a personal nature and not to the subject is rather compelling.

Not that anyone would miss you if you were to be banned.

Don

July 14th, 2012
12:35 pm

MHS at 12:13

“Improving infrastructure and transportation are not what is being rejected here. It is this lame arse Carte Blanche tax that will never go back before the voters for approval to end or extend it and the projects specified to be funded that are being rejected.”

In my opinion these two items are joined at the hip. You can’t reject one without the other. That is how our politicians will see it.

Just got a flyer in the mail from our local state Senator who is ever-so-proud of all the taxes he proposed cutting. Not a single other accomplishment. Didn’t move the meter an inch on any transportation project or improve gov’t efficiency, or anything else.

He’s also the guy who’s in trouble for claiming mileage from Atlanta to home every evening – even when he is out of town – and while he has an expensive year-round condo in Atlanta. Great guy…

You think he’ll is capable of helping develop “Plan B”?

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
12:38 pm

I’ve done said most everything I have to say on this subject and it looks like I’m not the only one.

JoeFann

July 14th, 2012
12:46 pm

Hate to cloud the issue with facts, but…
Georgia ranks 49th in per capita spending on transportation (ahead of only Tennessee.)
Georgia’s gas tax ($.075/gallon) is second lowest in the nation, behind only Florida ($.04/gallon.)
Gas tax revenues, which fund 100% of state road and bridge work, have plunged annually from $994 million in (FYE 6/30) 2008 to $713 million in 2012.
In 2007, GDOT let over $2 billion in transportation projects. Over the last four years, GDOT lettings averaged only $725 million, INCLUDING stimulus funds.
GDOT gets NONE of the TSPLOST funds, only the approval that the constructed project meets GDOT specs.
By law (TIA,) the TSPLOST expires at the end of 10 years, or when the estimated tax amounts (by regions that pass it) are collected, whichever comes first.
Your county will get a portion (% differs by region) of the funds to spend on county transportation projects, where YOU have input and (voting) control.
The TSPLOST can only be extended by voters, not politicians. (Of course, the politicians can still write their own law, just not extend this one.)
Engineers, material suppliers, construction companies and the businesses they support are waiting until the outcome of this vote before deciding if additional rounds of layoffs and shrinkage are required, on the heels of contracting twice already since 2008. This round will be the bloodiest yet.

Sorry to be Debbie Downer, but the fed pols haven’t fixed the Highway Trust Fund, the state pols haven’t fixed the funding model, and all have punted the ball to you. Roads and bridges WILL be maintained. The question is simply how will they be funded, and who will fund them. Your county will charge the property owners through higher taxes. At least through TSPLOST, everyone who buys will contribute, including the passers-through. Everyone depends on transportation for the delivery of goods and services, including your own labor. At least through TSPLOST, you have a say through the regional boards.

I don’t like taxes either, but this one is needed, and needed now.

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 14th, 2012
12:53 pm

Don, I have no problem with the voters rejecting this tax. While our laws allow for this type of vote, I disagree with the notion that we are a democracy and should be voting on this stuff.

Democracies usually get things wrong, as the votes are taken during times of economic or social strife, when clear thinking and level-headedness are at dismally low levels.

I hope they reject this because it is not only a bad idea, but it is the more proper role of our elected officials to live or die (politically-speaking, of course) by the votes they cast. If they want to improve our transportation infrastructure, something I’m not even willing to concede even needs such massive improvement, then make them do their jobs and increase our taxes if needed.

And btw, if you want an increased income stream to fund transportation, don’t tax every purchase, just those that affect transportation. Increase the gas tax and MARTA rates if you need to, but stop taxing EVERYTHING for a specific purpose.

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
12:54 pm

Well maybe I haven’t said everything I have to say lol

In the NE region Hall county has more votes than any other county. They are slated to get back $1.40+ for every dollar they pay in, if this tax passes. So they can vote it in and get the other counties to pay for it. At first, the movers and shakers in Hall were advertising that but as soon as they figured out it was pissing off people in the other counties, they hushed.

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 14th, 2012
1:00 pm

There are more holes in this plan, Hillbilly D, than a block of my favorite Kerry Gold Swiss cheese!

JoeFann

July 14th, 2012
1:01 pm

Tiberius–EVERTHING people buy has to be transported. That’s the best reason for an additional sales tax.

JoeFann

July 14th, 2012
1:02 pm

Where does Kerry Gold Swiss come from, and how does it get to you?

JDW

July 14th, 2012
1:04 pm

@JoeFann…now don’t go crowding these minds with logical facts…all they can see is Tax = Bad. Somehow the idea that growth requires investment just hasn’t found purchase in those grey regions as yet.

Here is another interesting bit…

““I wanted to know exactly how many projects we had on the books and I didn’t get a definitive answer,” Abraham says. “The first number I got back was 1,100. Then it was 1,300, then 2,216. Now the answer seems to be 5,430. Last year we let 260 projects, and we still have 20 years of projects on our books.”

“That was in December, as Abraham was getting warm in her new office. At the time, Georgia was facing a $51 billion funding shortfall through 2035 for road, highway and bridge repairs and improvements, according to a report released by The Road Information Program (TRIP), a nonprofit research organization supported by road builders. ”

So a 20 year backlog and a $51 Billion funding shortfall…

does T-Splost fix everything…no.

Have our Republican “Leaders” given us an elegant solution…no

But our choice is simple address part of the problem or continue to do nothing and fall further behind.

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 14th, 2012
1:05 pm

Then let the TRANSPORTATION industry pay for it, JoeFann.

This business of spreading it around for less impact is no different than the scheme the Feds do with automatic withholding in your paycheck; out of sight, out of mind.

JDW

July 14th, 2012
1:05 pm

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 14th, 2012
1:13 pm

“At the time, Georgia was facing a $51 billion funding shortfall through 2035 for road, highway and bridge repairs and improvements, according to a report released by The Road Information Program (TRIP), a nonprofit research organization supported by road builders.”

Ah, the “fox guarding the hen house” generated plea for funding.

Not exactly meant to give anyone but the biggest supporter of big government a warm and fuzzy feeling.

What’s next, the defense industry telling us what kind of equipment we need to buy – wait, how’s THAT worked out? :roll:

td

July 14th, 2012
1:18 pm

JDW: For some reason my response is in moderation?

JDW

July 14th, 2012
1:19 pm

@Tiberius…”This business of spreading it around for less impact is no different than the scheme the Feds do with automatic withholding in your paycheck; out of sight, out of mind.”…”Not exactly meant to give anyone but the biggest supporter of big government a warm and fuzzy feeling.”

Now THATS the kind of insightful thinking that has led the Metro area to an economic ranking of 145 out of 200…keep it up maybe we can get lower still. In spite of all those built in advantages we have.

JDW

July 14th, 2012
1:20 pm

@td…”For some reason my response is in moderation?”

It does that to me sometimes too. If I close the browser and rewrite what I said it sometimes works.

JoeFann

July 14th, 2012
1:22 pm

How we got here is not the issue. While I’m interested in fixing problems, not blame, there is plenty of blame to go around, and most of it is at the feet of our elected officials. Simply put, no one interested in getting reelected is interested in solving tough problems, because none of the solutions will be popular. GDOT has been, and still is, inefficient. The reason so many jobs are “on the books” is because GDOT does not close out projects in a timely manner. They want to leave them open as long as possible to “require” contractors to continue to maintain them long after completion, so they don’t have to. Other states require projects to be closed within 60 days of completion of the punch lists, but not Georgia. (The 20 year list may also include projects needed, but not yet approved or funded. Remember that by law, GDOT cannot let work that is not 100% funded, unlike other states. We tried to change this by referendum a couple of years ago, but it, too, failed, due to lack of public education.) More fuel efficiency, while a worthy goal for all, reduces gallons of fuel purchased, reducing gas tax revenues. If we continue to depend on a gas tax to fund transportation, without a major increase in that tax, revenues will continue to fall. (The increase would need to be 25 to 30 cents per gallon to equal funds expected to be generated by Tsplost.) Admittedly, the economy has contributed to lower fuel usage, but a 28% reduction is devastating to gas tax revenues which are based on a per gallon rate, not a % of sale rate. We MUST have a different model. Unfortunately, it appears that no one will consider it a “must do now” problem until one of the bridges inside the perimeter fails and kills a dozen or so. We can’t avoid the inevitable. We need action now.

JoeFann

July 14th, 2012
1:29 pm

TB–I don’t disagree that new thinking, or at least new rates, aren’t needed, but that’s neither on the ballot, nor in the works for our part-time legislature. They’ve made it pretty clear that a rate increase isn’t going to happen. The people of this state can’t afford procrastination any longer. Kicking the can down the road doesn’t help.

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 14th, 2012
1:31 pm

JDW, I’ll match my actual insightful thinking with you’re alleged insightful thinking all day long and come up a winner every time.

The difference between me and you is that I don’t use statistics for statistic’s sake; I actually look behind them and analyze the reasons behind them to keep from making bull shoy statements as you do.

There are REASONS behind every statistic. I rely on the reasons. You rely on a single, unverifiable statistic to hang your arguments on.

“In spite of all those built in advantages we have.”

Built in advantages like – what? Our poorly educated workforce with a huge drop-out rate? Our uncertain water supply issues that keep one of the fastest-growing industries (bio-tech) out of our area? Our lack of heavy rail infrastructure except to our largest city, which keeps outlying areas from attracting manufacturing industries? Our corrupt and incompetent city and county leaders in Atlanta and Fulton who don’t know the first thing about attracting businesses or getting their own house in order?

Those built-in advantages, JDW?

JDW

July 14th, 2012
1:45 pm

@Tiberius…”Built in advantages like – what? Our poorly educated workforce with a huge drop-out rate? Our uncertain water supply issues that keep one of the fastest-growing industries (bio-tech) out of our area? Our lack of heavy rail infrastructure except to our largest city, which keeps outlying areas from attracting manufacturing industries? Our corrupt and incompetent city and county leaders in Atlanta and Fulton who don’t know the first thing about attracting businesses or getting their own house in order?”

No those are the things we keep doing to negate our built in advantages of geography, available land space and weather. The water issue is another advantage that we have turned into a self inflicted wound through lack of investment. We have plenty of water…just not enough places to store it. Many years ago we actually made an investment in transportation infrastructure and it grew us into the regional hub we are today.

as for this bit….”There are REASONS behind every statistic. I rely on the reasons. You rely on a single, unverifiable statistic to hang your arguments on.”

Indeed there are REASONS we are 145 out of 200. The main REASON is people that think like you have shouted your OPINIONS the loudest and you are WRONG.

As for the veracity of the data…it is what it is but in your world I guess you know more than those folks that have an actual economic education and research skills to back it up. :roll:

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 14th, 2012
1:59 pm

2008 ranked 59 out of 200
2009 ranked 106 out of 200
2010 ranked 126 out of 200
2011 ranked 145 out of 200
———————-

So to sum up, Atlanta did better during Our President Bush’s administration, and tanked when the Obozo regime came to office.

Don

July 14th, 2012
1:59 pm

To Kyle’s point #2 – a faster commute. He is mostly right. Not all minutes are created equal. A minute or two on a trip is not worth as much as the minutes in a larger chunk of time. Getting back a half hour or more in one chunk rather than 30 minutes in 15 doses is better.

The only way to get time back in chunks like that is to uses Xpress buses or commuter rail. I get back 35 minutes of time twice a day using a bus rather than driving. I mostly read and sleep and surf the internet – things I can’t do while driving.

Don

July 14th, 2012
2:01 pm

Lil Barry – can you explain the cause and effect? You might as well say that Atlanta has gone downhill since the last time the Braves or Falcons played for a title….

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 14th, 2012
2:04 pm

Don, you’ll have to ask JDW, I’m merely reframing his earlier post blaming Georgia Republicans.

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
2:12 pm

Admittedly, the economy has contributed to lower fuel usage, but a 28% reduction is devastating to gas tax revenues which are based on a per gallon rate, not a % of sale rate. We MUST have a different model.

Joe Fann–Thoughtful post, lot of good points. Per the reduction of gas tax revenue, it’s not specific to gas taxes only. Due to the high unemployment rate, overall tax revenues are in the toilet. As such, we need to prioritize government expenditures. If there is a specific bridge or highway that poses an imminent danger to the public, then by all means fix it, using whatever source of revenue that is available. However, from my limited perspective, this T-SPLOST measure is being pushed state-wide not in response to specific infrastructure needs, but as some sort of “general public works” project. For this reason, I can’t get behind it.

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 14th, 2012
2:14 pm

“No those are the things we keep doing to negate our built in advantages of geography, available land space and weather.”

All of which are nice, but have little to do with economic issues.

“The water issue is another advantage that we have turned into a self inflicted wound through lack of investment. We have plenty of water…just not enough places to store it. ”

I suggest you look at our particular basin and the runoff directions before spouting off such nonsense again, JDW.

JDW

July 14th, 2012
2:14 pm

@LBB…”So to sum up, Atlanta did better during Our President Bush’s administration, and tanked when the Obozo regime came to office.”

Actually no..Atlanta did better under Clinton and when Bush and the Ga Republicans took over we started our slide to nowhere.

JDW

July 14th, 2012
2:24 pm

@Tiberius…”All of which are nice, but have little to do with economic issues.”

Actually they have EVERYTHING to do with economics over the last 50 years…

As for the basin and water runoff…what’s your point. Had we been forced to live without Lanier we would have solved the problem through reservoirs and conservation, which we should do anyway. With Lanier that simply means we don’t have to make those investments. In either case the problem would have been solved and should have been solved many years ago. The problem is not lack of water, it is lack of infrastructure absent Lanier.

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 14th, 2012
2:36 pm

JDW, I suggest you look at the Tennessee River capacity (not in our basin, btw). Less than 2% of it’s capacity could serve the needs of Atlanta for the next 50 years, but due to Federal government rules about inter-basin transfers (and a surveyors poor measurements) is unavailable to us.

Also understand that conservation does NOT attract businesses, supply does. We do not have the SUPPLY of water for new businesses, let alone existing ones with even moderate growth in the next 20 years. Reservoirs are good, but if you don’t have the flow into them, they are a minor positive, which is all they ever could be BECAUSE WE DON’T HAVE THE BASIC FLOW!

The problem is, in fact, LACK of water.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
2:40 pm

Gee who would’ve thunk it brucie!?

Cobb Commission Chairman Tim Lee, who faced a roads vs. transit dispute as the project list came together, has been under fire from his rivals in his re-election bid. Meanwhile, Gwinnett Commission Chairwoman Charlotte Nash, who didn’t take on the same suburban transit line fight that Lee did, is running unopposed….

Some of the same officials who approved the projects or voted for the state legislation that created the referendum later withdrew their support.

One example is Holly Springs Mayor Tim Downing, a roundtable member who faces re-election this November. When the roundtable approved the final project list last fall, he was absent because he had worked all night, he said. Reached by The Atlanta Journal-Constitution at the time, he said that he would have voted for it had he been there, and he supported the list.

Downing says he’s still a proponent of the transportation plan process, but now he is actively campaigning against the July ballot question.

http://www.ajc.com/news/transportation-referendum/transportation-vote-tied-into-1478024.html

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
2:51 pm

Since Georgia gave its’ water rights up to the Federal Government for those Army Corp of Engineer Reservoirs we have had that lack. Until we built a couple of desalinization plants similar to what Tampa has, only with nuclear power plants instead of coal fired power plants to source the power for those desalinization plants we will never have an abundance of the water we’ll need sustainable growth.

Off topic but it is still a back burner issue.

Transportation is going nowhere and the backers of this one should be drummed out of office, so the next bunch will learn what not to do. Possibly then we can move forward without and eternal tax or funding MARTA to the tune of 52% from the proceeds.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
2:55 pm

Uh Oh

July 14th, 2012
12:16 pm

You should take your on advice brucie wilcox under any name, it has never applied to me

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
3:00 pm

Don

July 14th, 2012
12:35 pm

Wrong Don, see my 2:51 pm comment dealing with water that includes nothing on transportation but would be a MAJOR infrastructure improvement to aid the overall future of this State.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
3:22 pm

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
2:12 pm

Only if it were as general as you seem to think, 52% of it will go to MARTA not roads. It is way past time to move beyond MARTA and most of us even in the so-called regional area can’t stand the politicians inside the perimeter who we would not give one more ounce of power for any reason imaginable as if their corruption alone wasn’t reason enough.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
3:28 pm

Info link for reference

Tampa bay seawater desalination plant

The Tampa Bay Seawater Desalination facility is an important part of the Tampa Bay region’s drinking water supply. This drought-proof, alternative water supply provides up to 25 million gallons per day of drinking water to the region.

Seawater coming into the plant goes through a rigorous pretreatment process then freshwater is separated from the seawater using reverse osmosis. The end product is high-quality drinking water that supplies up to 10 percent of the region’s needs.

http://www.tampabaywater.org/facilities/desalination_plant/index.aspx

JamVet

July 14th, 2012
3:57 pm

Did you leave @@ stranded at the alter or something?

Excuse me while I throw up at that thought.

That she obsesses over me in public like some jilted teenager, and has for many years, ain’t my cross to bear…

And now with Kyle’s new rules, it merely puts a crimp in her style, but trust me, nothing works!

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
3:57 pm

Only if it were as general as you seem to think, 52% of it will go to MARTA not roads.

Michael–I was speaking state-wide, not just Atlanta. I’ve been living in Columbus for the past two years. No traffic woes to speak of here.

To be honest, I didn’t realize that such a high percentage of the Atlanta T-SPLOST money was going to MARTA. Even more reason to oppose it. MARTA is very top-heavy management-wise, and not run very efficiently IMO. A few years ago, one of my clients in Atlanta who worked for MARTA told me that one of the train operators pulled down $100,000 one year. It involved significant overtime, but still…….

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
3:59 pm

That she obsesses over me in public like some jilted teenager, and has for many years, ain’t my cross to bear…

Who are you kidding, Brother Am?? You love the attention and do all you can to egg it on. ;-)

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
4:00 pm

Don’t know about you, Jam, but I kinda like tall women. As you know, PB is 5′ 9″, just one inch shorter than @@. Of course, I doubt that @@ can match her 128 lb lithe figure….. ;-)

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 14th, 2012
4:01 pm

Sorry, JDW, but according to your own numbers, Atlanta moved up the rankings during Our President Bush’s administration, and then promptly tanked after the Obozo Crime Family infested our White House.

Can't trust politicians

July 14th, 2012
4:24 pm

Any legitimate financing of this size uses the present value of money to estimate the true cost. Politicians telling us the cost will be $7.2 billion in 2011 dollars are already misleading the public. Anyone want to lend me $100 today with a promissory note to recieve $100 in ten years?

I will vote yes on T-SPLOST under two conditions:

1) I am given history on the three largest State projects conducted in the past ten years that came in at budget to verify the credibility of their estimation abilities.

2) A new estimate using the net present value of the project in 2020 dollars.

Interested Observer

July 14th, 2012
4:27 pm

RE: “the pro-tax campaign…”

Let’s not forget who created this pro-tax T-SPLOST campaign. A Republican governor and Republican legislators easily enacted this referendum. Our Republican U.S. Senators have expressed support. Republican-dominated Chambers of Commerce, developers, and business leaders are supporting it.

This is worth remembering when our Republican representatives claim to be the party of low taxes. After a decade of enacting special interest tax cuts that have contributed to our budget woes, these same Republicans now say that they can’t afford to maintain and expand our transportation system without raising taxes on who? You.

Here’s the deal. When they cut taxes for one group of people, they want the rest of us to make up the difference. Republicans aren’t the party of low taxes; they’re the party of low taxes for the rich.

Sales taxes are paid disproportionately by the poor and middle class. So when they fight to lower income tax rates and raise sales tax rates, Republicans aren’t lowering taxes. They’re shifting them from somebody else to you.

JDW

July 14th, 2012
4:31 pm

@Tiberius…”BECAUSE WE DON’T HAVE THE BASIC FLOW!”

And yet we have all sorts of options. Nowhere in this report does it say the problem can’t be addressed, only that will require infrastructure and time. Our only real problem was that we almost waited too long to implment a plan. Now we that have access to Lanier what we need to do is start now before we run out of time again.

http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%20Library/Environment/ep_Water_Contingency_TF_12-11-2009.pdf

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 14th, 2012
4:32 pm

And yet the facts show that the higher one’s income, the higher their tax rate.

The rich are paying their fair share. And most of yours.

JDW

July 14th, 2012
4:34 pm

@LBB…”Sorry, JDW, but according to your own numbers, Atlanta moved up the rankings during Our President Bush’s administration, and then promptly tanked after the Obozo Crime Family infested our White House.”

Yes LBB by 2008, after 8 years of DUHBYA we were back where we started in 2000…just in time for his Recession to impact us. Far greater than many parts of the country because we spent 8 years doing NOTHING.

Michael H Smith

July 14th, 2012
4:36 pm

To be honest, I didn’t realize that such a high percentage of the Atlanta T-SPLOST money was going to MARTA.

Neither did I Bruno, until I heard the in-the-know-panel of T-SPLOST experts on WSB-radio reveal the very fact that 52% would go to MARTA. We need Statewide rail transport of the public-private kind using existing rail infrastructure, one, because what is in existence goes through every major city or town in this state… which two, means more job opportunities options for those living rural areas other than leaving a small town to work in Atlanta… and three, it would enhance intra-state shipping capacity and commerce, thereby taking a few trucks off the road.

I would absolutely ditch MARTA but not the idea of using or the use of rail the existing rail infrastructure for a very simple reason: Eventually you run out of readily available land, which is about where we are now in the Metro area. To re-build a rail infrastructure, by and for, MARTA would be so darn disruptive, legally challenging and cost inefficient that it is unthinkably prohibitive to the sane non-BIG GUB’MENT Union mind to pursue such a boondoggle.

Then again we know the big Gub’ment union worker ilk and the pols that depend on them to remain in power have never given a rats rear end about the taxpayers at large.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 14th, 2012
4:38 pm

JDW, you didn’t show the numbers from 2000. Your numbers showed that Atlanta improved during Our President Bush’s administration and tanked when the Obozo regime arrived in Washington.

59th at the end of Our President Bush’s administration.

145th after four years of Obozo’s malfeasance.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 14th, 2012
4:42 pm

Apparently Obozo has a problem with authentic black people. Didn’t show up at the NAACP convention. Pushed Atlanta’s rankings down precipitously. Drove black unemployment up near 15%.

And he’ll still get 95% of the black vote.

Enjoy that change, Obozo voters!

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
4:43 pm

Let’s see now what political party held power in Congress between 2006 – 2008 before that old Bush left office?

All I can say is I’m glad Bush found the veto pen he had lost after 6 years of not looking, once Pelosi and company took over.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
4:52 pm

I wonder what the reaction would be if Romney received 95% of the white vote in this country?

Just saying…

Interested Observer

July 14th, 2012
4:57 pm

RE: “And yet the facts show that the higher one’s income, the higher their tax rate.”

http://www.whatmittpays.com/#h1-i2

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 14th, 2012
5:07 pm

I think obozo got more of the moron vote than anything.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 14th, 2012
5:17 pm

Interested Observer, the facts are not with you.

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43373

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
5:18 pm

Did the facts also show how many subsides, write-offs, loopholes and shelters are available to those earning higher incomes: Like those poor dirt farmer rock-stars Bruce Springsteen and Jon Bon Jovi?

If you want more money from the evil rich alls you gotta do is lower the rate of deductions, subsides, write-offs, loopholes and shelters to zero. But as long as the irresponsible socialist spending problems continue, taking every penny the evil rich democrats have will not solve the debt crisis lurking just around the corner.

As long as Romney made his money lawfully you can cry til you die. Nothing wrong with legally taking advantage of what your democrats and my republicans give the rich in favorable tax laws. If we don’t like the way those facts stack up on taxes we should get rid of the ones who made the tax laws we don’t like.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 14th, 2012
5:18 pm

Bottom line, the higher one’s income, the higher the tax rate. My earlier statement stands unchallenged.

Ray

July 14th, 2012
5:21 pm

All I can say is that right before the E-SPLOST vote last November is that all these same blogs were dominated about 80/20 by all the negative nabobs. And then the E-SPLOST passed easily. For some reason these blogs seems to attract all the cranky nutjobs who are against any project for the collective good. Hopefully the sane and relatively silent majority that realize that Atlanta cannot afford to do nothing will prevail again.

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
5:24 pm

Sales taxes are paid disproportionately by the poor and middle class.

IO–You may be an “interested observer”, but this statement reveals that you’re not an “informed observer”. The poor and middle class may pay a higher percentage of their incomes on sales tax because they save less, but the upper class spend a lot more money per person in absolute dollars, and thus contribute more to the total sales tax collected per capita.

I think you need some better talking points.

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
5:35 pm

It’s pretty simple to tell where somebody will fall on the sales tax vs income tax debate, (with the usual few exceptions, of course). People who don’t make a lot of money will be in favor of income tax toting the load. People who do make a lot of money will tend to favor sales tax toting the load. Why is this? It’s quite simple, it’s all about whose ox is getting gored, like most everything else.

Interested Observer

July 14th, 2012
5:44 pm

RE: “the higher one’s income, the higher the tax rate. My earlier statement stands unchallenged.”

Actually, I challenged this statement at 4:57.

It depends on your source of income. People like Romney, the Koch Brothers, and others who received most of their money first by inheriting it and then through investment income are subject to significantly lower tax rates than people who make most of their money through work. In other words, the tax rates on inherited income, dividend income, and capital gains income are much lower than the rates on earned income. It’s also true, as I said earlier. that sales taxes are paid at higher percentages of income for the poor and middle class than for the wealthy.

Lower taxes on inheritances and investment income means higher taxes for the rest of us on income earned from work. The result is that people like Romney pay lower taxes rates on his billions than middle income families pay on their paychecks.

http://www.whatmittpays.com/#h1-i2

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
5:46 pm

It’s pretty simple to tell where somebody will fall on the sales tax vs income tax debate

As far as I know, HD, it was never presented as an either/or option. I’ve been asked to vote on 1 cent sales tax increases several times, but never have been asked to vote to either raise or lower the state income tax rate.

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
5:51 pm

Bruno

Wasn’t talking about this particular situation, just the general argument that you usually see. I’m in rambling mode. lol

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
5:51 pm

Actually, I challenged this statement at 4:57.

IO–Though you may find a few wealthy people who pay a lower tax rate than the average middle class person, it’s not true across the board. This can easily be proven by looking at Kyle’s tax column a few days ago. The top 20% earn about 50% of all the income in this country, and pay nearly 68% of all federal taxes collected according to his chart. That means that the other 80% of us earn the other 50% or all income, yet only pay 32% of all federal taxes collected. Very simple math shows that the top 20% of earners are therefore being taxed at twice the rate of the lower earners. Is there anything unclear about that??

Interested Observer

July 14th, 2012
5:55 pm

RE: “The poor and middle class may pay a higher percentage of their incomes on sales tax because they save less…”

I’m confused that you criticize my argument while you’re simultaneously agreeing with me???

As you indicated, it’s true that the poor save less than the middle class and the middle class save less than the poor. We agree. As a result, the poor and middle class pay a higher percentage of their incomes in than the rich. We agree on that too.

In fact, as somebody who was once poor, I can tell you that I wasn’t poor because I saved less. I saved less because I was poor. Every dollar was needed for housing, food, transportation, health care,… There was nothing left to save. Now that my family is solidly in the middle class, we save 10 cents out of every dollar that we bring home. If either my wife or I get laid off, then of course, we’ll be saving a lot less. If we win the lottery, then I assure you, we’ll save more.

I repeat, when income taxes are cut and sales taxes go up, then taxes paid are lowered for the wealthy and raised for the poor and middle class.

Glad we could find common ground.

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
6:04 pm

I repeat, when income taxes are cut and sales taxes go up, then taxes paid are lowered for the wealthy and raised for the poor and middle class.

Hypothetically, you’re right, but the current increase in sales tax isn’t being offset by a decrease in state income taxes. As such, you’re making a phantom point.

Interested Observer

July 14th, 2012
6:12 pm

RE: “This can easily be proven by looking at Kyle’s tax column a few days ago.”

I read that column, and Kyle’s chart distorted the results by including corporate taxes in his assessment. It also limited it’s assessment to federal taxes.

First, corporations are not people and comparing the income of corporations with the income of households is comparing apples and oranges. I’d love to see the result of Kyle recalculated the chart comparing HOUSEHOLD incomes. It would be dramatically less progressive than indicated.

Second, state and local taxes tend to be regressive, so if include all taxes paid by households, not just federal taxes, you’ll also find that the system is significantly less progressive: “The study’s main finding is that nearly every state and local tax system takes a much greater share of income from middle- and low-income families than from the wealthy.” http://www.itepnet.org/whopays3.pdf

I don’t deny that household income taxes on EARNED income are progressive. But when all federal, state, and local taxes paid directly by households are taken into consideration, including sales taxes, the numbers are dramatically different. In addition, whenever we go lower income taxes and raise sales taxes, tolls, user fees,…then we shift the tax burden from those at the top to everybody else.

Interested Observer

July 14th, 2012
6:28 pm

RE: “Hypothetically, you’re right, but the current increase in sales tax isn’t being offset by a decrease in state income taxes. As such, you’re making a phantom point.”

As I pointed out earlier, the state has been passing special interest tax cuts for a decade. Here’s a story about one of them.

“State lawmakers gave an election-year tip of the hat to recession-weary voters Wednesday, approving small tax cuts for wealthy senior citizens and property owners.”

http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/legislature-votes-to-phase-462944.html

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
6:32 pm

First, corporations are not people and comparing the income of corporations with the income of households is comparing apples and oranges.

IO–All you seem to be doing is repeating the same old tired liberal talking points with no analysis at all. Every single corporation in the world is comprised of people. As such, any corporate taxes paid result in less money available to the owners and investors in those corporations.

If you want me to accept the “corporations aren’t people” meme, then you’ll have to demonstrate to me functions carried out within the corporate structure which aren’t originated by a person. You can’t do it, so you have no point.

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
6:33 pm

Back later with some tunes……

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 14th, 2012
6:54 pm

Hey, they found Saddam’s WMD again-

Syria has begun moving its chemical weapons stockpile out of storage, U.S. warns

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
6:58 pm

Corporations will be people, when Texas executes one. :lol:

Seriously, if corporations are to be treated as people, why don’t they have the same liabilites as an individual or a sole proprietorship? They can’t really have it both ways. Most everybody I’ve ever known personally, who formed a corporation, did it to decrease their personal liability.

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
6:58 pm

Here’s how I feel lately:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBcnjx05a1s

Holy Mother of God
You’ve got to go faster than that to get to the top
Dirty old mountain
All covered in smoke, she can turn you to stone
So you better start doing it right
better start doing it right

You’re halfway up and you’re halfway down
And the pack on your back is turning you around
Throw it away, you won’t need it up there, and remember
You don’t look back whatever you do
Better start doing it right

G Mare

July 14th, 2012
6:59 pm

Kyle, do you have a criminal record? When I googled you, a strange web site came up. I didn’t go there ‘cuz I figured it was bogus & might steal my password. Just sayin’ you might want to check it out. :)

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
7:02 pm

Most everybody I’ve ever known personally, who formed a corporation, did it to decrease their personal liability.

Incorporation laws have been changed to close a lot of those loopholes, HD. And though the liability protection has been abused by many in the past, it’s a necessary function, or else no one could safely invest in a corporation without risking their entire life savings in case something went wrong.

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
7:04 pm

Another Genesis classic from “And Then There Were Three”:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWZzXg_plrk&feature=relmfu

You’re old and disillusioned now as you realise at last,
That all all you have accomplished here will have soon all turned to
dust.
You dream of a future after life, well that’s as maybe, I don’t know.
But you can’t take what you left behind, you’re all alone.
So keep in mind
Don’t live today for tomorrow like you were immortal.
The only survivors on this world of ours are
The warming sun, the cooling rain,
The snowflake drifting on the breath of the breeze,
The lightning bolt that frees the sky for you
Yet only eagles seem to pass on through.
The words of love, the cries of hate,
And the man in the moon…

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
7:07 pm

G Mare–I just googled your name and came up with 144,000 hits.

You sure are famous…… ;-)

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
7:11 pm

For every guy who has ever had his heart broken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUEAx1ngnf0

For every girl, too ^^^^^^^

Ray

July 14th, 2012
7:28 pm

Interested Observer @ 6:28 PM

The chart also compares “pre-tax income” (after deductions, expenses, losses,… etc.). The top 1% generally pays taxes on a much smaller percent of their total net income, than the middle class, hence you will find multi-millionaries regularly paying a low effective tax rate (like Romney’s 14%). Our United States Appeal courts are busy handing down rulings, confirming the disallowance of tax shelters, found to lack enough economic substance to warrant tax losses. They are constantly “popping up”, because just like protecting our borders, there will always be people willing to take their chances crossing the line, hoping their don’t get caught, counting on poor enforcement of the laws to better their chances.

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
7:30 pm

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
7:36 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37dw2r45Xzg&feature=related

I love you in a place
Where there’s no space or time
I love you for in my life
You are a friend of mine
And when my life is over
Remember when we were together
We were alone and
I was singing this song for you

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
7:40 pm

For HD–The original version of “Call Me The Breeze” by J J Cale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7GV2yUaXw4

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
7:45 pm

Bruno

July 14th, 2012
7:49 pm

One more from J J Cale, then have to head out. The man never got his due……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IZ9feKpJkk&feature=related

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
7:58 pm

Seriously, if corporations are to be treated as people, why don’t they have the same liabilites as an individual or a sole proprietorship?

That’s why most individuals incorporate their sole proprietorship businesses as quickly as possible to protect their personal assets. So a good number of so-called corporations may in true fact be just an individual who added a couple of names on paper that retains the real sole authority over the business.

Old Timer

July 14th, 2012
8:04 pm

They need to go bck to the drawing board on the TSPLOST. I live out of the metro area, so we have a ten countiy TSLOST because they have designed this to include everyone, Not Just Atlanta. It’s overall push is political and will have disparities in the surrounding area. This was an Atlanta thing although it is being packaged as a state thing. the Georgia Department of Transportation is the biggest boon doggle in the state. They have alot of shovel ready projects already–most of the help are leaning on the shovels.

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
8:08 pm

Michael H Smith

Exactly.

I had a co-worker a few years back who was one of those “names on the paper”. They held their yearly “corporate” meeting in Jamaica every year. A way to make their annual vacation, a write off.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
8:12 pm

Ray

July 14th, 2012
7:28 pm

Like I said get rid of all the deductions, subsidies, write-offs and shelters, until then this clamor about tax rates is meaningless, as 14% is a far cry from 35%. There are enough legal means to lower the rate of taxation for the rich to avoid paying the top rate without having to break or risk breaking the law. Like those two pretend farmer Rock Stars who shelter some of their millions with legal farm subsidies.

ALL BORN IN THE USA!

md

July 14th, 2012
8:40 pm

“People like Romney, the Koch Brothers, and others who received most of their money first by inheriting it”

The only money Romney inherited from his Dad was given in it’s entirety to BYU……….

md

July 14th, 2012
8:46 pm

“I had a co-worker a few years back who was one of those “names on the paper”. They held their yearly “corporate” meeting in Jamaica every year. A way to make their annual vacation, a write off.”

Them’s the rules…..and one would be doing themselves a disservice if they don’t do as that guy is as every larger corp spends millions wining and dining………

The way I see it, if one doesn’t like it, one is free to not participate in those capital endeavors……everybody complains about the high prices of sporting events and concerts, but folks always seem to come up with the money to go…….

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
8:51 pm

md

Everybody else does it, is a poor justification, in my opinion. Legal and right are two different things. This same person who wrote off their vacation every year, would foam at the mouth at the thought of somebody getting government assistance, or a handout. They couldn’t see their own hypocrisy or more than likely, just didn’t care.

md

July 14th, 2012
8:59 pm

“Legal and right are two different things.”

And I could agree on that one…….there are a lot of loopholes that need to be cleaned up.

But asking folks to police themselves while others are not is asking a bit much.

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
9:03 pm

md

And that’s why the law should be changed but it won’t be because those who make the laws benefit from these kind of things. It’s why people like me have little respect for politicians or the law.

RW-(the original)

July 14th, 2012
9:11 pm

Hillbilly D,

Apologies for interrupting the current discussion, but do you view the Gameday feature at mlb.com? For the last two days I can’t get it to load and I can’t figure out what’s blocking it.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

July 14th, 2012
9:12 pm

IO seems intent on remaining ignorant, or she’s simply so committed to defending her Messiah’s talking point that she is impervious to facts.

The rich pay a higher percentage. They pay their fair share. They pay most of yours too.

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
9:17 pm

RW

Yes, I do. It’s been screwed up the last couple of days. Nobody that I talk to on the baseball blogs has been able to see it. They usually get it fixed within a couple of days but their software is about on a par with AJC software, I think.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 14th, 2012
9:21 pm

White Sox- KC loaded right up.

You trying to watch some silly teams?

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 14th, 2012
9:24 pm

Well, I guess it is pretty silly to be in a 3 to 3 death struggle with the Royals.

geez

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
9:26 pm

Looks like Adam Dunn’s record of having more strike outs than hits for every year of his career is safe for another year.

RW-(the original)

July 14th, 2012
9:27 pm

Thanks, HD. I thought I might have gotten overzealous in some blocking scripts.

I Report, You and Obama still on the same team? He’s a lifelong fan dontchaknow…

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 14th, 2012
9:30 pm

HD- As long as he keeps the A-bombs coming.

RW- Yeah, he’s watching the game tonight from Comunisky Park.

Freaking 4-3 Royals, do they save their energy for when we show up or what?

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 14th, 2012
9:40 pm

Cool, Robin’s thinking the same way I am, sit the Tyler Flower Experience down on the bench and bring the Pierzynski.

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
9:58 pm

RW

If you’re still around, the Minor League side of Gameday seems to be having problems, too. At least, on my puter.

RW-(the original)

July 14th, 2012
10:06 pm

Hillbilly D,

Since gameday has forced me to look for an alternative, SeeBS isn’t bad but I don’t know that they cover the minors very well.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
10:16 pm

“Legal and right are two different things.”

In the spirit and letter of the law they really aren’t two different things. It only becomes different when it is wrong for others but not for you. If you are looking for some sense of fairness which is about all we’ll ever get in this thing, then a two tier flat tax with all deductions eliminated is about as good as it can get.

Government assistance when truly needed, rather than when abuse simply because someone doesn’t want to do what it takes to have a better life than to live lazily off the labor of others, was meant to buffer the harsh realities of Capitalism. Which not only is the most rewarding economic system of all others but it can be the most brutally punishing economic system of them all. The legitimate fomenters against abuse are aiming at the government assistance abusers and the abusive government that enables failure and life-long sorriness.

Hillbilly D

July 14th, 2012
10:18 pm

The legitimate fomenters against abuse are aiming at the government assistance abusers and the abusive government that enables failure and life-long sorriness.

There’s abuse at the top, as well as the bottom. The “entitlement mentality” belongs to more than just one group.

Michael H. Smith

July 14th, 2012
10:35 pm

There’s abuse at the top, as well as the bottom. The “entitlement mentality” belongs to more than just one group.

Yeah but that group at the top get subsidies, deductions, write-offs and shelters which they figure they’ve earned through hard work – and a lot of lobbying for tax breaks – so its really not like government assistance.

See what I meant by… “It only becomes different when it is wrong for others but not for you”

Once again if you are looking for some sense of fairness which is about all we’ll ever get in this thing, then a two tier flat tax with all deductions eliminated is about as good as it can get. But don’t expect sympathy for the slothful because the diligent got a few breaks you don’t feel they deserved when at least they did put forth some genuine work effort and paid for some of that government assistance the others receive, even for the abusers who really shouldn’t be getting jack diddly squat.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward - Again)

July 15th, 2012
6:01 am

I’d like to know where all these mythical subsidies, deductions, and write-offs are to be found. When I do my taxes every year, I see lots of them in the tax code, and they all phase out at this or that income level.

Name one subsidy, deduction, or write-off that is available only to folks ABOVE a certain income level.

Michael H. Smith

July 15th, 2012
6:34 am

I’d like to know where all these mythical subsidies,deductions, and write-offs are to be found.

If you have to ask that question then you probably don’t make enough money to pay someone who can show where to find them or take advantage of them. :)

Michael H. Smith

July 15th, 2012
6:39 am

TV PROGRAM NOTE: John Stossel’s ‘Freeloaders’ Special Takes on Billionaires, Poor People, Indians, Everybody

For all of you who think FOX News Channel and FOX Business Channel are biased toward the rich and dismissive of the poor, check out John Stossel’s “Freeloaders” TV special on Fox News Channel, originally broadcast on Friday and Saturday and airing at 9 p.m. and midnight eastern time on Sunday, March 27. link:http://stossel.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2011/03/26/i’m-a-freeloader-fox-news-special-re-airs-today-at-3pm-sunday-at-9pm-midnight-est .

I’m currently reading Ayn Rand’s 1957 novel “Atlas Shrugged” in preparation for my viewing the movie version that will be on the big screen in mid April. Ayn Rand would approve of Stossel’s take on freeloaders, especially the corporate ones he cites like General Electric. In case you haven’t heard, GE — the biggest industrial corporation in the world — not only didn’t pay any U.S. income taxes last year, the company got millions of dollars in refunds.

Farm subsidies go to millionaires like Bon Jovi, who pays property taxes of only $100 a year on his extensive real estate holdings in New Jersey — because he raises bees on the property. Fellow Jersey Guy Bruce Springsteen is in the same catbird seat, because he leases some of his real estate to an organic farmer.

http://www.huntingtonnews.net/2795

Is this good enough for you little blind man?

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 15th, 2012
6:59 am

No, that is not good enough. I asked for examples that were ONLY available to people above a certain income level. Take your farm subsidy example. What is the minimum income level specified in the tax code to qualify for that?

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 15th, 2012
7:04 am

Don’t get me wrong, MHS, I am not for farm subsidies or special treatment for politically favored companies such as GM, which got a sweetheart deal in its bankruptcy wherein it gets to carry forward its pre-bankruptcy losses for tax purposes, which is the opposite of how the bankruptcy law normally works.

@@

July 15th, 2012
7:34 am

I love Stossel’s exposes. Everyone gets their fair share of scrutiny.

Stossel was once a liberal who became painfully aware.

Kinda like me.

Do-gooders aren’t doing anyone any good.

Tired of BS

July 15th, 2012
8:46 am

If any state legislator votes “YES” they need to GO!

NoHomeForDrivers

July 15th, 2012
9:06 am

This isn’t merely an issue of people not wanting higher taxes – which they don’t. The two biggest problems (and the reason for voting NO) is simple: The plan is truly flawed. Different regions have different needs, and the DOT hasn’t really defined specific solutions. And Number two: Who trusts our state government or the GA DOT? I don’t. Look at the 400 toll, as an example. The few projects defined will take longer than 10 years, what happens if TSPLOST passes, the project is started, but takes 12-15 years to complete and the second vote fails. GA DOT needs to go back to work on this. Technically, they had solutions available to them back in the late ’70’s/early ’80’s, but refused to act on what was best for an exploding city.

TruthBe

July 15th, 2012
9:10 am

VOTE NO. This tax increase is a scam for more pet projects of local politicians and their special interest donors. When is enough taxes enough? People don’t be foo;ed again. Remember the lies about toll road GA-400.

Michael

July 15th, 2012
9:14 am

By all reasonable accounts, Georgia ranks 49th in transportation spending among U.S. states. All this persiflage about throwing money around to chase a few transportation problems is complete blarney. We need to spend much more money on transportation than we do, especially in the Atlanta region.

I’ve read the project list posted on the T-SPLOST information site and, while I would certainly wish there were more projects put forth to address mass transit needs, I am clear that T-SPLOST needs our support. Our roads and bridges are crumbling, and the dangers associated with that decay should be clear to anyone.

It doesn’t help the issue AT ALL that the people who support the project and who are in a position to communicate its benefits have acted like milquetoasts. Their underwhelming presence is a puzzlement, and fellow Atlanta lover Maria Saporta has, in my view, a pretty good take on the communication problem and what should be done about it: http://saportareport.com/blog/2012/05/transportation-sales-tax-campaign-needs-to-target-voters-likely-to-vote-yes/.

I’ll vote yes on T-SPLOST, because I love this region and don’t want to see it crumble. I’ll vote yes because I believe we have to pay to take care of important things like roads; I think it’s reasonable to believe that we have to pay for upkeep and improvement, and if we don’t make that investment, we’ll pay a greater cost. I’ll vote yes because I don’t want to end up in a car wreck on a crumbling bridge or road. I’ll vote yes in the hope that the Beltline can get a real start, because I think it has a great chance of improving the quality of life for the region–not just the city, but the whole region. I’ll vote yes because I think there’s a chance this set of projects might help all the warring fiefdoms of the region go a long way towards recognizing that we’re all in this together, and if we see Atlanta as a region and not as a series of city-states, we’ll find change for the better.

JamVet

July 15th, 2012
10:01 am

Remember the lies about toll road GA-400.

Good point. The “small government” (Huge LOL) Georgia Republicans sure got their guppies to swallow their fibs hook, line and sinker, huh?

Yet…

“If the referendum does not pass and there’s no alternative, reliance on toll roads is going to become more important,” said Mike Meyer, an Atlanta transportation expert and former head of the national Transportation Research Board.

“That is probably the only thing that is left out there” that can get funded, agreed Harold Linnenkohl, a former commissioner of the state Department of Transportation.

Get your quarters ready…

Michael H. Smith

July 15th, 2012
10:06 am

What is the minimum income level specified in the tax code to qualify for that?

Oh the example was more than good enough to satisfy the underlying inference of your claim without a dollar certain amount being attached. Unless of course you expect me and others to take a facetious penny certain challenge serious.

To avoid taxation as the two prominent names I’ve used so far as examples would preclude most anyone without near equal wealth or incomes of a Bruce Springsteen or a Jon Bon Jovi. My statement stands: If you want to find those subsidies or deduction you’ll have to earn the kind of money it takes to have some crafty CPA and Tax lawyer help you take advantage of them most likely.

Yet my challenge of doing away with all subsidies and deductions for everyone hasn’t been met and I doubt that it ever will, even in the face of financial collapse. However it is the best possible solution to tax reform – i.e. Everyone has skin in the game so to speak and no one’s hide is spared a centimeter from the tax knife by some darn special tax exclusion or exemption, subsidy, deduction, write-off, loophole, incentive or shelter.

Michael H. Smith

July 15th, 2012
10:12 am

Nice thing about these so-called experts is they never have to face the voters who so often have proven them wrong.

Michael H. Smith

July 15th, 2012
10:15 am

Off to support a local AJC advertiser. I mean they gotta pay for this blog some way besides lobbying for a government subsidy.

Later…

JamVet

July 15th, 2012
10:15 am

As for facing voters, ditto, we pontificating bloggers and habitual naysayers…

Bruno

July 15th, 2012
10:21 am

In case any of you missed it, Cynthia Tucker continues to pollute the planet with her “Republican Whites Are Racists” rants, now linking opposition to ObamaCare with hatred for blacks:

http://news.yahoo.com/racism-tinges-opposition-obamacare-050012367.html?_esi=1

From the article:

“Social scientists have concluded that many conservative white voters harbor a racial animosity that fuels their opposition to certain forms of government largess, especially if they believe it benefits the undeserving (black) poor. Political scientists Donald Kinder and Lynn Sanders, authors of “Divided by Color: Racial Politics and Democratic Ideals,” call it a “subtle prejudice for modern times.”

That helps explain why working-class whites are especially hostile to the Affordable Care Act. Polls show that they are among the groups most likely to believe that health care reform will benefit someone else, not them.

They’re wrong, of course. Working-class voters — white, black and brown — are among those who will benefit most. Professionals either get insurance at the office or can afford their own policies. The very poor are eligible for Medicaid. But people employed in jobs that don’t require a college degree are more likely to be stranded by the high costs of health care.

If the law is fully implemented, those voters may eventually figure out what a benefit they’ve received from Obamacare. But a cadre of Republican governors has insisted that won’t happen; they are prepared to take a figurative stand in the schoolhouse door against the law, even though the Supreme Court has upheld it.”

Bruno

July 15th, 2012
10:25 am

By all reasonable accounts, Georgia ranks 49th in transportation spending among U.S. states.

If you flip that statement around, Michael, you could just as well say that Georgia is #2 in saving money on useless transportation projects. ;-)

On a serious notes, the roads in GA are waaaaay better than the roads in just about any Northern state. Weather is a big factor, of course.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 15th, 2012
10:27 am

Now that Tucker no longer works for the AJC and is a public figure, it’s safe to call her what she is.

A racist idiot.

Bruno

July 15th, 2012
10:31 am

Now that Tucker no longer works for the AJC and is a public figure, it’s safe to call her what she is.

Was it not safe to call her out prior to her departure from the AJC?? I remembered being astounded when she admitted in print that a full 25% of her columns centered on (white) racism. Talk about a one-trick pony…….

Bruno

July 15th, 2012
10:39 am

Also, special for JamVet: In their book, “Top Screwups Doctor’s Make and How to Avoid Them”, authors Joe and Teresa Graedon estimate that medical errors result in the death of 500,000 people per year in the US. Kind of pales in comparison to the estimated figure of 40,000 people who die for lack of medical care that you like to throw around……

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 15th, 2012
10:49 am

Was it not safe to call her out prior to her departure from the AJC??
—————————

Not if Bookman’s blog is any indication.

Bruno

July 15th, 2012
10:53 am

Bookman’s blog

LBB–Did you forget the “no obscenity” rule here at Kyle’s?? ;-)

On a serious note, if Kyle will tolerate me and my music entries, I think we can build a conservative community here. Right now, we just have a collection of folks, many of whom don’t really like each other. A little fun and a little music will go a long way toward bringing people together. Regardless of our various political positions, we’re all in this thing together……..

middle of the road

July 15th, 2012
10:59 am

One big thing that is killing TSPLOST is the Georgia 400 debacle. When the 1% sales tax has been in place 10 years, and gets ready to drop off (because as some people argue, the bonds are fixed), the politicians will say “people have been paying this 1% tax for years so they are used to it and won’t care if we extend it.” Same as with the Georgia 400 toll. IT WILL NEVER EXPIRE, BECAUSE GOVERNMENT WON’T CUT OFF A TAX REVENUE SOURCE.

Bruno

July 15th, 2012
11:16 am

Same as with the Georgia 400 toll. IT WILL NEVER EXPIRE, BECAUSE GOVERNMENT WON’T CUT OFF A TAX REVENUE SOURCE.

middle of the road–Of course, you are correct. Politicians are attracted to government because they like power, and more money to spend = more power. At the same time, about half of our population, the liberal half, is convinced that a large, centralized government leads to a better life for the populace. As such, they continue to vote for the big spenders, especially if they think that someone else will be forced to foot the bill (the “rich).

R.Mann

July 15th, 2012
11:30 am

I am against any added tax , simply because of the current fuel / road use taxes collected less than 47 % of it is actually spent on roads. The Government wastes the rest of the tax dollars on special interest projects. If the Government would spend the money on what a tax was/is for in the first place, we as commuters wouldn’t be sitting in traffic right now.

Dusty

July 15th, 2012
11:56 am

Well, good morning, it’s a kinda cool Sunday morning. I was at church this morning and guess to whom my thoughts wandered? The “music lover members” of this blog! That’s who! And Why? Because we were singing “My life Flows On in Endless Song”

I would say that most people enjoy a song whether you are a Christian or not, as this hymn suggests. But I think you will like the words too, with your own connotations.

MY LIFE FLOWS ON IN ENDLESS SONG or How can I keep from singing?

Music and text by Robert Lowry 1826-1899

My life flows on in endless song,
Above earth’s lamentation.
I catch the sweet, though far off hymn
That hails a new creation.

Through all the tumult and the strife
I hear the music ringing,
It finds an echo in my soul,
How can I keep from singing?

What though my joys and comforts die?
The Lord my Savior liveth.
What thought the darkness gather round?
Songs in the night he giveth.

The peace of Christ makes fresh my song,
A fountain ever springing.
All things are mine since I am his,
How can I keep from singing?

Refrain
No storm can shake my inmost calm
While to the rock I’m clinging.
Since Christ is Lord of heaven and earth,
How can I keep from singing?
—————————————-
I hope you enjoy this hymn and keep your own personal song going… That is the reason I send it to you. Not exactly T-SPLOST for sure…

@@

July 15th, 2012
11:58 am

a little music will go a long way toward bringing people together.

thbbpppttt

retiredds

July 15th, 2012
12:06 pm

Plan B is simple: increasing traffic congestion over the next 10-15 years and more toll (targeted tax) roads. Won’t solve much without significant transit options and you can bet the businesses who are looking to relocate will by-pass the Atlanta area for those modern cities who are investing in a more transit oriented infrastructure (Charlotte, Denver, Dallas). Let’s not forget that most of the people who are against the T-Splost brought this traffic mess on themselves because they rejected balanced transit options in favor of roads and more roads.

I, quite frankly, don’t have an ax to grind as I live in an intown area that is serviced by 3 Marta bus lines that connect to rail nearby, a university shuttle system, and more and more bicycle lanes each year. Don’t really need a car to get around but have one as a convenience only (drive it about 3 days a week on average).

I will vote “yes” as it is a great second step (the first was MARTA rail) toward a more sensible transportation system for the Metro area.

Dusty

July 15th, 2012
12:14 pm

Awww come on, @@. thbbpppttt? Not even a little song?

We’ve pulled all the shots…for TSPLOST! So all we gots…are some lil’ song spots!!

RW-(the original)

July 15th, 2012
12:27 pm

Hillbilly D,

If you happen to come by it looks like AdBlock Plus actually is the culprit causing gameday not to load. I’m not sure what individual script it is, but you can disable it for the mlb page and then gameday loads fine.

@@

July 15th, 2012
12:36 pm

Music’s fine. It’s the bringing together part that gets a thbbpppttt.

Tap Out

July 15th, 2012
12:38 pm

How’s voting republican working out for you construction workers? Not so good huh?

No More Money

July 15th, 2012
1:01 pm

Eldrin Bell and Burell Ellis arent going to get another dime of my money. Bloated county governments, school systems that are the laffing stock of the state and they want money for traffic? Lets face it…..African Americans cant run/manage anything with success. Look at our country, look at our city, look at our schools. Any questions?

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 15th, 2012
1:11 pm

Tap Out: How’s voting republican working out for you construction workers?
————————-

Republicans didn’t put Obozo in office. Remember that $800 billion stimulus and the shovel ready jobs?

How did THAT work out for the construction trades?

Obozo blew it all buying off his union buddies in the government worker’s unions. If we really had to borrow those hundreds of billions from China, we could have at least fixed some of that “crumbling infrastructure” we’re always hearing about.

Obozo inherited a recovery, threw another $800 billion on top of it, and STILL failed.

A Realist

July 15th, 2012
1:22 pm

@retiredds
I’m with you! If this fails, the ones that will pay are those that would have gained the most.
I hope they enjoy the congestion and big tolls… not to mention significantly increased fares on GRTA (if it still exists after summer 2013).

I’ll continue to sit intown and breathe their congested exhaust…while the feds continue to cut highway funds due to pollution. But at least I can exist without a car!

A Realist

July 15th, 2012
1:43 pm

Kyle,
Sure, the is a Plan B … it is ‘Do Nothing and See What Happens.’
Sorry, rural politicians get elected by kicking Atlanta around, and there is no way they will come up with another option, not in any foreseeable time frame. History has proven that time and time again.

… and I’m seriously glad your career doesn’t depend upon thorough, unbiased financial analysis. But then Micky D might be hiring! (you have to start with the evidence and draw a conclusion, not draw the conclusion and hunt for corroborating evidence.)

Michael H. Smith

July 15th, 2012
1:47 pm

As for “dittos” we pontificating voters had plenty of nay to say to you democrats. In fact you commi-jerks have become politically irrelevant in this state and a pathetic joke on this blog. :lol:

Michael H. Smith

July 15th, 2012
1:59 pm

Bring on the toll roads big Gub’ment talkers this ain’t your daddy’s democrat state anymore or did you forget not one statewide office is held by a democrat?

Then again, when there are people who refuse to get the message sent to them repeatedly on MARTA after forty years of rejection, comprehension isn’t exactly their strong suit now is it?

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 15th, 2012
2:02 pm

“As the failures of his presidency become more evident, Barack Obama has resorted to the tactics of a typical politician: dishonest and totally unsubstantiated attacks meant to distract from his own record by sm-ear-ing the rep-uta-tion of his opponent,” said Amanda Hennenberg, a Romney campaign spokeswoman.

Well, what else could obozo talk about, the Stimulus?

hahahahahahahaaahaha

Michael H. Smith

July 15th, 2012
2:06 pm

I guess obumer could have talked about MARTA need 52% of a T-SPLOST and threaten us all with toll roads if we don’t allow them an eternal gas tax increase.

I mean he has gotten any political traction from anything else he’s tried to use against Romney.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 15th, 2012
2:16 pm

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 15th, 2012
2:19 pm

Obozo, on the latest stop of his “Kill Capitalism” tour: “If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”
————————-

You’ve got to be an America-hating economic retard to even think about supporting that orifice. How dare you even pretend to be an American. You, like Obozo, may be a citizen, but you’re not an American.

Michael H. Smith

July 15th, 2012
2:20 pm

I’ll keep you in my prayers Brain T-SPLOST Kemp but I’ll not be praying for rain young man.

@@

July 15th, 2012
2:35 pm

Question!

Did Monica Pearson marry a younger man?

I just found out she built a house (MANSION) at Spivey. Tore one down to build another one. She’s a liberal democrat, right?

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 15th, 2012
3:57 pm

Who’s Monica Pearson?

Mark in mid-town

July 15th, 2012
4:16 pm

Kyle Wingfield wrote: “But taking money out of one part of the economy and putting it in another is an awfully inefficient path to economic growth — at best. And make no mistake: Money that goes to the T-SPLOST is money that won’t go to local businesses.”
—————————————————————————————————————–
A few years back, a 22 year old relative of mine moved to the Washington DC area due to the weak Atlanta job market. She didn’t want to go at the time, but did so because it’s where there was a job waiting. Now she can get a professional job back in the Atlanta area, but has do desire to do so because she greatly appreciates being able to get around the DC area using their transit system. Over the next few decades, that’s probably a couple of million dollars that won’t get spent in the Atlanta area.

Young people are the future and young people today are attracted to cities that invest in inner-city infrastructure and transportation. And it’s not just that Atlanta will lose out on the couple of million dollars this person would have spent in the area over the next couple of decades. Her parents are now investigating moving out of the Atlanta area as well up to the DC area to be near their kid. I’d estimate the annual income of the parents to be in the $200,000 range. Multiply the dollar loss to the Atlanta area over the next couple of decades if they succeed in being able to move to DC area as well.

So the money spent on T-SPLOST is not really money that would have gone to other Atlanta area businesses. It’s money that will largely go to other parts of the country if the citizens of the Atlanta area foolishly vote this down. As the net multiplier effect of that cascades down through the years, it will mean fewer young professionals choosing to move to or stay in Atlanta. It will mean fewer of the ofter affluent parents of such young people choosing to move to or remain in the Atlanta area. And that will mean fewer businesses being able to stay in business or relocating to the Atlanta area due to the systematic loss of future consumer and investment spending in the Atlanta area.

T-SPLOST is far from perfect. But there is no viable alternative and as such, it would be incredibly foolish to vote this down as it will be some of those who vote against it who later find themselves being forced to move away from Atlanta so as to be able to stay employed or to be able to be near their kid(s) who have moved out of the region due to a job that never got created in the area because a company located elsewhere.

Bruno

July 15th, 2012
4:45 pm

Her parents are now investigating moving out of the Atlanta area as well up to the DC area to be near their kid. I’d estimate the annual income of the parents to be in the $200,000 range. Multiply the dollar loss to the Atlanta area over the next couple of decades if they succeed in being able to move to DC area as well.

In case you were unaware, Mark, housing costs in the DC area are double or triple those in metro Atlanta. Public transportation is only one factor. Don’t have any figures handy, but I would have to guess that the taxes and general cost of living are higher in DC as well. Looking at the big picture, I’d take Atlanta over DC any day. Just a hunch, as well, but I’m sure there will be plenty of job seekers to take over those 2 $100,000 jobs as well.

The Thin Guy

July 15th, 2012
4:52 pm

The local TV airwaves are being saturated with ads for T whatever. Who’s paying for them? What do they expect in return? When Sonny Perdue ran for governor the first time he said that one of the first things that he would do when elected is synchronize all the red lights in Atlanta. How did that turn out? What happened to the Sonny Do List?

Bruno

July 15th, 2012
5:25 pm

Dusty

July 15th, 2012
5:25 pm

I believe that happiness in where you live depends on the happiness you have within. Unless there are dire circumstances, one adjusts to their surroundings.

Some people are happy living in the middle of down town Atlanta. Right in the middle of “things” and no hitting the ‘pressways to get to wrork. Some ;people are happy in the suburbs and love the trees, the neighbors, the yards and pools, better schools usually, and think a drive to town isn’t the worst thing that could happen.

Big businesses may consider living conditions but I believe their access to shipping, manufacturing and employees is more important than who might live where. Supporters of T-SPLOST are acting like the life of the city will be endangered without it. They forget that only a miniscule of people want their taxes raised for anything. But Atlanta will keep right on growing inside and outside, with or without T-SPLOST. We don’t want our taxes growing with it.

Dusty

July 15th, 2012
5:29 pm

“What happened to the Sonny Do List?”

To be a bit repetitious here: What happened to Hope & Change?

Bruno

July 15th, 2012
5:41 pm

Evelyn Levine

July 15th, 2012
5:42 pm

What about senior citizens who have gotten a break on their county taxes and a good break. Now we want to add another one when we are already struggling and having to pay for the issues out of Obamacare and we don’t have the money. What are we to do? It is time to stop adding to and giving this economy a president (Romney) who can begin the relief of debt and taxation and hopefully we will be better in time for highway work. Right now it doesn’t rank very high on my list.

Dusty

July 15th, 2012
5:58 pm

Bruno, sooo (what happened to Hope & change?)

“Let me do it to you!!”..Lovely tune! Ah yes…

But, honey chile, we have been dun in already. The “stimulus” jolted us and ObamaCare finished us off. .Now it is all BAIN glory while the Oval Office sits empty. What an enchilada!

Dusty

July 15th, 2012
6:06 pm

Evelyn Levine, 5:42

You got that right! Good vision!

Dusty

July 15th, 2012
6:10 pm

Just a few words before moderation sets in.

THE BRAVES WON AGAIN TODAY. What a team! Go Braves…

Hillbilly D

July 15th, 2012
6:14 pm

RW (if you happen by)

I happened to see your comment and turned the AdBlock off on that site. That got it to work. You know a whole more about computers than I do but I’ve had AdBlock running for quite a while now, so why did I just start to have problems with Gameday 2-3 days ago? Was there some change on Gameday’s end, possibly?

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 15th, 2012
6:51 pm

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was taunted by chants of “Monica, Monica” by tomato-throwing demonstrators as she visited the Egyptian port city of Alexandria on Sunday.

Aahhh, yes.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 15th, 2012
7:11 pm

It gets better-

Cairo (CNN) — Egyptian protesters threw tomatoes and shoes at U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s motorcade Sunday and shouted, “Monica, Monica, Monica” as she left the newly reopened U.S. Consulate in Alexandria.

Shoes. Remember that one, Bush Derangement Syndromers?

Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)

July 15th, 2012
7:16 pm

Yes, I do recall that the America-hating left and the media (pardon the triple redundancy) saw great meaning in the throwing of shoes at Our President Bush. My guess is that today’s incident gets scant attention.

Reality Dawg

July 15th, 2012
7:21 pm

Problem 1: TSPLOST is a politically charged compromise. As a resident of Gwinnett (not Lawrenceville), I do not see any benefit for my area except the widening of Highway 141/Peachtree Parkway (which should have been completed years ago).
Problem 2: Too much potential waste. WAY TOO MUCH mass transit funding that does noting but service downtown areas.
Problem 3: Too much potential corruption in the awarding of TSPLOST money. We saw this disaster once when Roy Barnes’ friends were lined up to acquire and “resell” the land for the Northern ARC (great idea that would have solved a lot of problems, but got ruined by corruption).
Problem 4: Raising taxes (any taxes) is the worst recession since The Great Depression. Most Democrat voters want the taxes to come from the “rich” (otherwise known as the Middle Class since the “rich” are usually untouchable through the many tax loopholes created by their friends in the legislature, both State and Federal).

This dog won’t hunt. Get ready for the creation of Plan B.

@@

July 15th, 2012
7:39 pm

Reporter a/k/a Andy:

It’s not important, I’m easily distracted.

Monica (Kaufman) Pearson

@@

July 15th, 2012
7:41 pm

Egyptian protesters threw tomatoes and shoes at U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s motorcade Sunday and shouted, “Monica, Monica, Monica” as she left the newly reopened U.S. Consulate in Alexandria.

Who’s Monica, Monica, Monica?

Lewinsky?

Hillbilly D

July 15th, 2012
8:01 pm

@@

I never have seen why people get so excited about somebody reading the news.

RW-(the original)

July 15th, 2012
8:04 pm

Hillbilly D,

I suspect that gameday made some change that makes the whole page look like an ad. Possibly those ads that are now on the scoreboard, but the only people that would know what is different now would be people that didn’t use Adblock before or somebody that uses IE.

Hillbilly D

July 15th, 2012
8:09 pm

RW

Okay. Thanks for the help. I passed the info along on the baseball blogs.

RW-(the original)

July 15th, 2012
8:37 pm

‘Testicle-eating’ fish caught

That’s a headline over on msn dot com and I have no reason to believe reading the story wouldn’t clear things up, but the headline alone is too good to bother with the story. For instance was this fish caught in the act or hooked like any other fish catch and if it was hooked was the headline a clue about the bait.

The mind boggles. Y’all have a pleasant week.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 15th, 2012
8:44 pm

According to CBS News White House correspondent Mark Knoller, Obama told supporters there were “paralegals” available to help those who felt weak from the heat.

Yeah, sue the Sun.

@@

July 15th, 2012
8:48 pm

Hillbilly:

I’m a curious sort.

@@

July 15th, 2012
8:51 pm

Hillbilly:

I’m also amazed at those folks who would tear down a perfectly good house, just to build a different one. Shute! Mrs. Pearson house is too big for two people. Maybe she likes to entertain.

Better her than me.

Any gatherings I have are usually impromptu…no invitations. They just happen.

@@

July 15th, 2012
8:52 pm

Actually, I’m looking to downsize.

Hillbilly D

July 15th, 2012
8:55 pm

I’m also amazed at those folks who would tear down a perfectly good house, just to build a different one.

Some folks like to put on the dog. I always figured it was because they were insecure. Who gives a rat’s patootie what anybody else thinks about ya. As a friend of mine’s Mama once said, when somebody noted that she wasn’t dressed up, “If anybody don’t like the way I look, they can turn their damn head and look the other way”. (IW&SH)

Mark in mid-town

July 15th, 2012
9:05 pm

in response to Bruno at 4:45 PM: — I would prefer living in Atlanta over DC as well. But the larger point I was trying to make is that today’s most talented young people don’t aspire to a suburban lifestyle the way the prior generation did. They increasingly want to live in the city and want mass-transit options.

Demography is destiny. The metro areas that invest in transportation will have the upper hand at attracting talented young people and the businesses that employ them. The metro areas that are the most successful in attracting the largest shares of talented young people are the areas that will have the brightest futures.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that Atlanta is falling behind the metro areas we compete with in terms of attracting this talent. It would be best if we had visionary conservative leaders in government who stepped up to the plate and funded needed transportation projects so that we didn’t have to rely on things such as T-SPLOST. At one time, Atlanta region and Georgia probably had such visionary conservative leadership. We don’t anymore.

I can’t think of a leader less visionary than Sonny Perdue was. I think he was a disaster for the long-term prospects of the state and Atlanta region and is the primary reason we have fallen behind those cities we compete with, whereas we used to be far ahead of such cities.

Regardless, the political situation in this state is what it is. There is no viable alternative to T-SPLOST that’s anywhere near on the horizon. If we vote it down, while our population will still grow, we will drive many of the most talented young people and most promising companies elsewhere. The growth will largely be among 2nd tier talent and companies, rather than the top tier.

That will still be better than many places, but we have the potential to be among the best. To not understand that voting down T-SPLOST will drive top oung talent elsewhere in the future is short-sighted and outright stupid, imo.

Back in the 1980s and 1990s, the Atlanta region was 2nd to none at attracting top young talent from other parts of the country. Now we drive too much of such top talent away. And when we drive such talented young people away, it also cascades up as given a choice, parents would prefer to live near their children as well.

So when we drive increasing shares of talented young people away, we also increase the likelihood that their parents will leave the region or not move here as well, and chances are the parents of such people are far more affluent on average as well. The cumulative net-effect of all that is a region with lower incomes and lower opportunity, even if the population is still increasing.

@@

July 15th, 2012
9:06 pm

“If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen,” he said.

Huh!!??!! Did he REALLY say that!!??!!

That ain’t good.

bu2

July 15th, 2012
9:45 pm

Houston and Austin are two of the fastest growing cities in the country. Both are doing massive road building programs and have a small light rail line. The idea that having rail systems is the only way to growth is mindless fiction. Younger people have always tended to use more mass transit. Then they earn some money and buy a car. They get a family and can’t waste time in mass transit.

In any event this plan, instead of expanding our MARTA system, builds trendy light rail toy trains that MARTA can’t afford to support and don’t do much for mobility.

Unlike cities like Austin and Houston which come up with a plan and then figure out how to fund it, Atlanta politicians came up with the money and then tried to figure out which pet project to spend it on. Those of you who say we should vote for this because there is no Plan B are PART OF THE PROBLEM. You enable the incompetent politicians. And the Republicans in control here are almost all former Democrats who simply changed their label, so they are as corrupt as the people labelled Democrats they replaced (well maybe not as corrupt as the Democrats who still run Fulton and Dekalb and MARTA).

md

July 15th, 2012
11:13 pm

“They increasingly want to live in the city and want mass-transit options. ”

And then they get married and have kids and want out…….which is why the burbs became the burbs……..

Bruno

July 15th, 2012
11:58 pm

Back in the 1980s and 1990s, the Atlanta region was 2nd to none at attracting top young talent from other parts of the country. Now we drive too much of such top talent away. And when we drive such talented young people away, it also cascades up as given a choice, parents would prefer to live near their children as well.

Mark–I appreciate the sincerity of your concerns, but am not convinced quite yet that mass transit is the end-all be-all that it is in other cities. For starters, there’s still plenty of parking in Atlanta, differently from LA or Chicago. Though keeping a car is somewhat costly, it’s still a viable option in Atlanta. Compared to the rest of the country, gas is fairly cheap here as well.

As far as talented young people not wanting to live in Atlanta, I’ll need to see more than your one anecdotal example to believe that. As for the companies that might potentially hire them, I don’t think MARTA is the big draw either. Most likely taxes heads the list, so adding more probably isn’t the best solution.

Since I don’t live in Atlanta anymore, I don’t have a dog in the MARTA fight. Here in Columbus, I’ll be voting “no” to T-SPLOST since our roads are in good shape and traffic is minimal.

Bruno

July 16th, 2012
12:00 am

Heading off to bed, but kudos to everyone this weekend for keeping the conversations civil. I hope Kyle builds enough confidence in the group to keep the blog open on nights and weekends again.

SabrinaClarke

July 16th, 2012
12:17 am

We must work on ways to improve our transportation infrastructure now. I will be voting yes and will be encouraging others to do so as well. Voting no will only make our traffic worse.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

July 16th, 2012
7:31 am

I wonder why those TSPLOST commercials aren’t touting the congestion-relieving improvements to McCollum Field, the general aviation airport in Kennesaw.

killerj

July 16th, 2012
7:45 am

VOTE NO,as usual this tax will will go to those who wait like vultures for money that they know will be unaccountable in the future,they cant even regulate what they have now with piss poor management,just looking at all the BILLIONS of Fed money for thirty years plus they linened there pockets with makes me sick with absolutely know improvements in traffic around this city.

mottlicher

July 16th, 2012
7:56 am

This simple folks…the project list is so large due to the number of constituencies in the ARC. It does provide for a larger mixture of transportation choices as the intown are growing and are getting denser (this will continue btw, their needs will have to be addressed) and as we continue to grow in the suburbs. This is needed.

As far as Plan B…..given the political realities of this area…that is very simple. TOLL ROADS…most all new large scale projects will have to have tolls….the changing funding options make this a certainty if there is not a Tsplost. Take your choice….many improvement projects in the near future with the Tsplost….or a small handful of projects with tolls.

fair and balanced

July 16th, 2012
7:57 am

Vote No.
If the issue is the daily commute, put more tolls on the damn roads into Atlanta like up North to fund transportation needs of commuters . Stop wasting all that Marta revenue on special ADA buses that act as private limousine services when all the buses are ADA equipped.(Because someone sued Marta in the early nineties when buses were not ADA equipped). Another unfunded mandate with unnitended consequences.I would love to have MARTA pick me up at my house.(There are private services that do that)
Atlanta residents already pay extra sales tax for MARTA. This is just a way to get them to pay more so the state does not have to contribute.

JDW

July 16th, 2012
8:00 am

@LBB…”Yes, I do recall that the America-hating left and the media (pardon the triple redundancy) saw great meaning in the throwing of shoes at Our President Bush. My guess is that today’s incident gets scant attention.”

Bit of a difference in tossing them at a car as it rolls by in a motorcade versus whizzing them by the head of a President from the back of the room…don’t you think. :roll:

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

July 16th, 2012
8:16 am

No, it’s worse because they were also throwing tomatoes and taunting the pig with chants of “Monica!”

What an embarrassment.

A Conservative Voice

July 16th, 2012
8:18 am

@Road Scholar

July 13th, 2012
8:19 pm
Education has never been this states’ strength , has it! Just how do you propose to educate the public about the tax/vote?

Hey, Road Scholar – you gonna be without a job when this whole boondoggle fails miserably?

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

July 16th, 2012
8:19 am

JDW, do you agree with Obozo’s claim that small business owners aren’t responsible for their own success?

Your guy is either a moron or a communist. We know he’s an America-hater.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 16th, 2012
8:24 am

One guy threw the shoe.

A mob threw the tomatoes and the taunts.

Spin it any way you want, libby.

Sideline Dude

July 16th, 2012
8:46 am

It’s a tax I don’t want & have already voted against it. Another tax for shady politicians to play with. Not for me.

@@

July 16th, 2012
8:50 am

Liar? Felon?

Obama’s in trouble. The fact that his negative campaign is having an impact only goes to show how gullible some voters can be.

@@

July 16th, 2012
9:07 am

In an interview with CBS News, President Obama says he needs another term so that his policies can “congeal.”

You jellin? He’s jellin’ with 8.2% unemployment.

schnirt

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 16th, 2012
9:40 am

I know a way we could cut our taxes-

In 2010, an OTC employee “misused” government resources to solicit prostitutes on three separate occasions via Craigslist. While working at the OTC, investigators said the government staffer “viewed websites offering erotic services on a weekly basis as well as communicating with and arranging meetings with women offering erotic services.”

I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please

July 16th, 2012
9:41 am

You jellin? He’s jellin’ with 8.2% unemployment.

Which is pretty dang good considering it was at 10 and rising shortly after he took office.

Its gonna take more than 4 years to clean up the steaming pile of poo Bush left on the doorstep.

Road Scholar

July 16th, 2012
10:11 am

A Conservative Voice: No I won’t since I am retired. But I do help entities with pro bono program reviews and laissoning with others. I have been in the business for over 36 years; when you are at something that long, I would hope you would know something about it! Nice try! Besides some actually make a living at this! Isn’t that capitalism? It was my area of interest and making a living. So are you against that to? That I must conform to your values, interests, or go away or that I’m wrong?

I just watched the “tape” of the dialogue chaired by the AJC. Steve Brown (Fayette Co) made a comment that the government in the region has not created incentives for teleworking! What? More government handouts? Doesn’t a business know that to hire , keep, and develop productive employees , it needs to use all the tools in the tool box including teleworking. The incentive is the return from the employee since personal commute times are eliminated or reduced, stress is reduced not having to be in traffic, disruptions to their work are minimized, and, in general, the employee gets more done in the same work period. Try it, you’ll like it. It does not mean that employee does not need to be supervised or their performance measured. They did it w/o government incentives during the Olympics! Did we learn anything?

Another point made was that the tax was regressive.It hits the poor unfairly. It does not tax Vehicle Miles Traveled or gas or road/transit usage. Just how does the food they eat, the clothes they wear, the maintenance of their homes or apartments, etc. get to their locations? By truck or car folks!

independent thinker

July 16th, 2012
10:29 am

Hey Repubs -when are you going to wake up and tell Romney -no tax returns -no nomination. You going to elect again a person possibly guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors l like in 1972 when Nixon got reelected and was forced to resign or be impeached. Just remeber Geithner and Obama got his returns and could initiate an audit or investigation at any time. I bet that has Willard awake at night. Several of your own like Gov. Reilly in Alabama(no moderate) are saying something is fishy if Mitt’s hiding the returns. nd then there are those SEC filings and that IRA.

independent thinker

July 16th, 2012
10:30 am

Enter your comments here

Mark in mid-town

July 16th, 2012
10:48 am

You jellin? He’s jellin’ with 8.2% unemployment.

Which is pretty dang good considering it was at 10 and rising shortly after he took office.
———————————————-
Actually, when weighting for the same work-force particpation rate as when Obama took office, the current unemployment rate would really be about 11%, not 8.2%. To the astute observers who understand how the unemployment rate is calculated, it means the percentage of those with jobs has actually decreased since Obama took office. But since the job situation has been so abysmal, millions of additional people have dropped out of looking for a job altogether, and thus aren’t included in the offficial unemployment rate, yet for all intents and purposes, they are every bit as unemployed as those actively looking for work who can’t find jobs.

DawgDad

July 16th, 2012
11:00 am

“point I was trying to make is that today’s most talented young people don’t aspire to a suburban lifestyle the way the prior generation did. They increasingly want to live in the city and want mass-transit options”

First, in general I don’t agree with you. Second, even if you are right, let them live there and finance their own local transportation. Keeps them off the highways. This has nothing much to do with T-SPLOST, except to the extent these people are looking for a handout (funding for their local transportation).

md

July 16th, 2012
11:09 am

“Bit of a difference in tossing them at a car as it rolls by in a motorcade versus whizzing them by the head of a President from the back of the room…don’t you think.”

Personally, no….I think the intent is the same in both instances……..

Dusty

July 16th, 2012
11:13 am

Cheesy, 9:41

If I were you, I’d not mention your imaginary “pile of poo” that Bush left when the mountain of debt growing under Obama will have many generations trying to pay it off ( if he doesn’t sink us altogether).

and Independent Thinker, 10:30

If I were you I’d not mention “scandals” like Nixons’s tapes and departure when you got the steaming screaming Clinton on record with a youthful girlfriend in the Oval Office and lies flowing forth in abundance.

Better not throw mud when you are sitting in your own mudhole. Silly libs! Romney looks like Mr. Clean compared to the record given us the last three and a half year by President Obama’s ineptitutde. A few more years of him and Americans will be sneaking across the border to Mexico looking for jobs.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

July 16th, 2012
11:13 am

Has President Romney submitted everything required by law? If so, mind your own business. Whining about tax returns isn’t going to fix your guy’s 8% unemployment or $1.5 trillion deficits.

JDW

July 16th, 2012
11:16 am

@LBB…”JDW, do you agree with Obozo’s claim that small business owners aren’t responsible for their own success?”

I think you are deliberately being obtuse or don’t have a clue as to what it takes to succeed in business.

The small business owner is responsible for the creation, direction and execution within their company. In a very small enterprise they are wholly responsible for its success. However as any business scales the employees contribute more and more to the success of the enterprise. Almost without exception anyone who has grown a business of any size recognizes this contribution and understands that the biggest success factor involved is the people they hire and retain.

md

July 16th, 2012
11:16 am

“Whining about tax returns isn’t going to fix your guy’s 8% unemployment or $1.5 trillion deficits.”

Another based on intent……..the intent is nothing more than distraction, and for the memo crowd it’s working. Evil rich guy with money………..poor testament to today’s society.

getalife

July 16th, 2012
11:18 am

Are you cons really going to vote for another tax?

But your ideology is no taxes and no regulations.

Too funny.

md

July 16th, 2012
11:21 am

“Almost without exception anyone who has grown a business of any size recognizes this contribution and understands that the biggest success factor involved is the people they hire and retain.”

Yet they also understand that gov’t interference plays a role as well…..such as minimum wage.

If a corp only has xx number of dollars to spend on salaries and benefits, then dictating wages also dictates the number of employees a corp can afford……..vs possibly hiring more.

Is it better to have 5 employed at xx dollars and hour or 6 at slightly less?

That one person added to many corps around the country would go along way in putting people to work.

getalife

July 16th, 2012
11:22 am

Speaking of taxes, willard should release all tax forms like his daddy and admit he has Latino roots.

md

July 16th, 2012
11:24 am

Like Bruno, I already solved my traffic problem in Atl…..I left. But since I don’t live there but like to visit, I’m voting no……:)

Dusty

July 16th, 2012
11:25 am

getalife,

What? Hallucinations again?

JDW

July 16th, 2012
11:27 am

@LBB…”Has President Romney submitted everything required by law? If so, mind your own business. Whining about tax returns isn’t going to fix your guy’s 8% unemployment or $1.5 trillion deficits.”

As George Will said…

“Romney must have something in the returns that he doesn’t want people to see and concluded that the risks of releasing the documents outweigh the risks of not releasing them.”

BTW…do you know where I can get a job like Romney’s at Bain…you know one where you are the sole shareholder, CEO, President and make millions a year but don’t have to do any work? :roll:

JDW

July 16th, 2012
11:29 am

@LBB…”Has President Romney submitted everything required by law? If so, mind your own business. Whining about tax returns isn’t going to fix your guy’s 8% unemployment or $1.5 trillion deficits.”

As George Will said…

“Romney must have something in the returns that he doesn’t want people to see and concluded that the risks of releasing the documents outweigh the risks of not releasing them.”

BTW…do you know where I can get a job like Romney’s at Bain…you know one where you are the sole shareholder, CEO, President and make millions a year but don’t have to do any work? :roll:

JDW

July 16th, 2012
11:30 am

And that is why I hire HTML people :lol:

md

July 16th, 2012
11:31 am

“BTW…do you know where I can get a job like Romney’s at Bain…you know one where you are the sole shareholder, CEO, President and make millions a year but don’t have to do any work?”

Yes……start your own company and grow it into a successful multi million dollar entity…..have fun.

JDW

July 16th, 2012
11:59 am

@md…”Yes……start your own company and grow it into a successful multi million dollar entity…..have fun.”

But then I would have to be “involved”. Romney says he wasn’t.

Dirty Dawg

July 16th, 2012
11:59 am

Kyle, what are you going for, the King of Cynicism, Selfishness and Prejudice? Cause if there was a vote for that you’d be in the lead.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 16th, 2012
12:06 pm

Well, if this isn’t a kick in obozo’s teeth-

China will cut taxes on the profits that foreign companies take out of the country by up to 50 per cent after rules on withholding taxes were relaxed to encourage more overseas investment.

The home country is cutting taxes?

the cat

July 16th, 2012
12:25 pm

Is it true Ann Coulter threw Mittens under the bus? The rumor is out there but no one I know is brave enough to google her name or look on her website. Anyone heard this?

md

July 16th, 2012
12:26 pm

“But then I would have to be “involved”. Romney says he wasn’t.”

there are numerous owners no longer “involved” in day to day operations…..that is why one hires good employees……

getalife

July 16th, 2012
12:27 pm

Stay true to your ideology cons and turn on the gop for trying to raise taxes.

Your State tax covers road construction.

States without State tax use toll roads to pay for roads.

getalife

July 16th, 2012
12:29 pm

ann sees our President running over willard so she/he is upset.

When is ann not upset?

md

July 16th, 2012
12:32 pm

“Stay true to your ideology cons and turn on the gop for trying to raise taxes.”

And the difference……the masses get to vote on it……more than was extended on Obamadoesn’tcare…….

You don't say

July 16th, 2012
12:38 pm

“more than was extended on Obamadoesn’tcare……”

Do you vote on all bills that go through Congress?

You vote for your Congressmen, Senators and President? Those who are elected then do the “heavy lifting” and the day to day bill making, law pass and signing into law and execution of those laws. Is the process great all the time? Not hardly, but that is how it works.

Maybe an on line civics course would help.

People of all political walks say basically the same thing when something doesn’t go their way. Nothing new

JDW

July 16th, 2012
12:51 pm

@md…”there are numerous owners no longer “involved” in day to day operations…..that is why one hires good employees……”

There is a difference between being no longer “involved” in day-to-day and disassociated as Romney claims. Think about it, if you own all the stock, attest to the SEC regarding the validity of financial filings and carry the legal responsibility of CEO are you going to be disassociated from the enterprise that makes you tens of millions each year?

Not happening as Romney’s own “under oath” statements support. Bottom line is that Romney has tied himself to that record and he can’t get away. He may soon have no choice but to release his taxes and with them “all the evidence” or face a long decline to November.

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 16th, 2012
1:01 pm

Only the habitually small-minded care one whit about the tax returns of a Presidential candidate.

Unemployment is at 8.2% and rising, and if the participation rate were the same as when Obama came into office it would be well into 11%. Already anemic GDP growth is slowing. Europe is disintegrating.

And the only thing the allegedly “most powerful man in the world” and his myrmidons can focus on are tax returns and bank accounts held in a blind trust.

Pathetic doesn’t even come close to describing this re-election campaign.

JDW

July 16th, 2012
1:13 pm

@Tiberius…”Only the habitually small-minded care one whit about the tax returns of a Presidential candidate.”

Indeed and that’s why all candidate refuse to release such inconsequential documents…o’ wait..they do? :roll:

Go spin some tops because that argument is as lame as it gets.

md

July 16th, 2012
1:24 pm

you don’t say……yes, we vote for our representatives……….but if one cares to check, even Obama has stated that reconciliation is not the way to handle legislation.

And a bill of this magnitude should never ever have to be passed using reconciliation……….

Civics class? Sure, have at it………

Tiberius - pulling the tail of the left AND right when needed

July 16th, 2012
1:27 pm

JDW, once again, the “he did it first” argument stops being effective once you get out of kindergarten.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

July 16th, 2012
2:09 pm

Getting a look at President Romney’s tax returns isn’t going to reduce Obozo’s record number of welfare recipients or reform entitlements.

Frankie

July 16th, 2012
2:36 pm

there is an alternative to this whole issue….require the entire state of georgia to have emissions donon their care.
Currently only the metro atlanta counties have emissions requirement. the other 50 counties do not require emissions. that’s $19 – 25 per car per year in addition to what is already being done in metro atlanta….

Janis

July 17th, 2012
8:45 am

I understand the need for improving the infrastructure. But all i’ve ever seen from government run anything is a waste of my tax dollars and excuses why they need more money to finish anything. I don’t believe this project will be run any better than history has shown government spending. As much as i want to vote yes because its an infrastructure upgrade (well supposedly), I just can’t.