Is high-speed rail really feasible for Georgia?
The Georgia DOT recently declared “feasible” three passenger-rail routes from Atlanta to other Southern cities: a straight shot to Birmingham; a line to Louisville via Nashville; and a line to Jacksonville via Savannah. While these plans do not directly relate to the T-SPLOST, they are very relevant to the multimodal transit hub planned for “The Gulch” in downtown Atlanta. But how feasible are these routes, really?
I’ll not comment today on the cost and ridership estimates, except to say the former are almost always too low and the latter almost always too high. What I want to examine is whether the routes are likely to be attractive to passengers at the prices DOT projects for each.
First, a brief detour to Europe. The Old Continent’s high-speed rail system is the aspiration of many an American train fanatic, and I’m quite familiar with it from my time living there. In 4.5 years I traveled from Brussels to London maybe a dozen times and to Paris seven or eight times — always by train. I never even considered flying (or driving, for that matter) because the train was:
- cheaper: a search Tuesday of fares two months from now found it was about $150 less expensive to go to London by train than by air; for Paris, the train was almost $700 cheaper;
- faster: allowing for 90 minutes at the airport (to cover both check-in and deplaning) vs. 30 minutes at train stations, it’s 15 minutes faster to get to London by train than by plane; for Paris, the train saves you more than half an hour;
- more convenient: train stations are generally closer to downtowns than airports are, and European train schedules often allow for as many or more departure times as airlines’ timetables do.
So, would high-speed rail from Atlanta to nearby cities be as attractive for passengers?
The GDOT study estimated only ticket prices, not travel times — although we can take some guesses at times based on distances and possible speeds. The tables below show the lowest nonstop, round-trip airfares I could find for each city pairing, for a long weekend two months from now, compared to the midpoint of GDOT’s estimated prices for a round-trip. To calculate the one-way travel times, I used the average speeds, including stops, for: Amtrak’s Acela line in the Northeast corridor (70 mph); the Eurostar train from Brussels to London (117 mph); and the Thalys train from Brussels to Paris (146 mph). It is highly unlikely we would see trains exceeding those average speeds in these three corridors — and remember: the faster the maximum speeds, the higher the capital costs. Then I added 90 minutes to the air travel times and 30 minutes to the rail travel times, as described above, to account for the time spent in the airports or train stations.
With those explanations, here’s what we get (best options are in bold-face):
As you can see, with the exception of Atlanta-Birmingham, the situation is almost opposite that in Europe. (I would note that the current Amtrak service from Atlanta to Birmingham, while even cheaper at $74 round-trip, takes a whopping 282 minutes each way.)
For the latter two routes, air travel is at least as cheap and fast as rail could hope to be. One caveat is that these timetables do not factor in travel time to the airport vs. a train station, because that would be different for each traveler. For a number of people, getting to and from a train station faster could offset some of the time advantage for air travel.
Of course, it’s one thing to buy a plane ticket or a train ticket — and something different altogether if driving is an option. For each of the above tables, driving would be roughly equivalent to rail with an average speed of 70 mph and much slower than rail at the higher speeds. But price would be very different: Even at $4/gallon for gasoline (in a car that gets 25 mpg), you’re talking about spending just $48 round-trip to Birmingham, $118 to Jacksonville, and $134 to Louisville. And that price covers everyone who can fit in the car, whereas each passenger would need their own ticket for air or rail travel. A family of four probably wouldn’t even consider spending more than $1,000 to take the train to Jacksonville when it could spend $118 on gas — and have their car with them, making it easier to get around once they’ve arrived.
There wouldn’t appear to be much flexibility for adjusting the rail prices. At those prices, and given GDOT’s ridership projections for 2020 through 2040, each line would just cover its estimated annual operations and maintenance costs. Given that the cost estimates are probably on the low side, and the ridership projections on the high side, it’s more likely the train fares would have to be higher just to break even. And by “break even,” I am not even talking about covering the tens of billions of dollars in capital costs for the three routes — this, at a time when we are having a major debate about how to allocate the $7.2 billion the T-SPLOST could raise for transportation.
Perhaps shorter segments of the proposed routes — maybe Atlanta to Nashville instead of Louisville, or to Savannah instead of Jacksonville — would be more competitive with air or auto travel. Given the foregoing, however, it’s hard to imagine high-speed rail being a wise use of our limited transportation dollars.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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360 comments Add your comment
jconservative
June 27th, 2012
5:54 am
You convinced me.
Road Scholar
June 27th, 2012
5:56 am
Kyle did you factor in the stops the train would make? That may increase the duration of the trip by train.
Dbaj
June 27th, 2012
6:20 am
Kyle, One thing that makes train travel in Europe easier is that when you get to your destination, the public transit systems are SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better over there than here. If you ride the train here, you would very likely still have to rent a car to get around where over there, you just get on the subway or bus and go where you want.
One thing public transportation advocates forget is you have to have the COMPLETE (trains, buses and subway) infrastructure for any of it to be feasible.
Something else that is different over in Europe than here in the US, communities themselves here are SOOOOO spread out compared to communities and city’s over there. When people live close together, like in Europe, public transit works.
jolliffe
June 27th, 2012
6:27 am
perhaps someone with the tech savvy could give us the co2 emissions per passenger by both
air and rail. I believe this is factored in to a lot of European planning, they seem to be a lot more concerned about global warming than we are in North America
Brent
June 27th, 2012
6:28 am
A true financial analysis of driving costs would include wear and tear on the car. A fairer figure would be 50 cents per mile
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
6:33 am
{{”Is high-speed rail really feasible for Georgia?”}}
No. At least not at this time and not in the foreseeable future.
Now at a time in the seemingly distant future when rail travel may possibly become much more popular, high-speed rail may quite possibly become feasible for Georgia, a major problem right now is that rail travel and travel by transit just is not all that popular at the current time as there is virtually no base of existing local transit ridership to make long-distance and out-of-town travel by high-speed rail viable.
Instead of attempting to promote the feasibility of long-distance high-speed rail routes as an alternative to air travel, the state should be in the somewhat substantially long-overdue process of developing SELF-FUNDING (WITHOUT taxpayer subsidies) and FINANCIALLY SELF-SUFFICIENT regional commuter rail lines along existing rail right-of-ways and transportation corridors as a much-needed parallel peak-hour mobility alternative to crowded rush-hour and peak-hour severely-congested and often-gridlocked spoke freeway corridors in and out of the city (I-75 NE, I-75 S, I-85 NE, I-85 SW, I-20 E, I-20 W, etc).
Tanner
June 27th, 2012
6:48 am
Excellent work here.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 27th, 2012
6:58 am
I think you answered your own question, didn’t you?
Ayn Rant
June 27th, 2012
7:10 am
By the way, Kyle. You should stop referring to Europe as the Old Continent. Take a close look at modern Europe: it’s shiny, clean, and new where it matters. The US is becoming quite shabby by comparison.
iggy
June 27th, 2012
7:31 am
I fail to understand the fascination/obsessions with the EuroTrash and their practices. See EU, Spain, Italy, Greece financial crises.
That being said. These high speed rail lines will be a bust, a waste and probably loss more money than Amtrak or other govt backed stupidly thought out programs.
Whirled Peas
June 27th, 2012
7:32 am
Ayn Rant, If you are suggesting we should be like Europe, you are just plain crazy. Europe has so much debt they are sinking in a sea of debt. Europe, as well as the US, needs to learn to live within its means.
Skip
June 27th, 2012
7:32 am
Whats a plane ticket cost for tomorrow, the two month discount is huge.
Dumb and Dumber
June 27th, 2012
7:37 am
Who cares if its economically feasible? Its not politically feasible and that is all that matters. GDOT needs to quit wasting its time playing with trains and change its name back to the Highway Department — that is all they have ever been and ever will be.
Whenever the State of Georgia gets involved in transit, it screws up. Look at GRTA for the last 10 years. Instead of creating a unified bus transit system for the suburbs (everything but Fulton and DeKalb) GRTA went into the transit business in direct competition with Cobb and Gwinnett Transit and MARTA. Its hard to imagine anyone on the left, right or center, who think that the State of Georgia should compete directly with local transit lines — but that’s what we have here. GRTA runs buses from Discover Mills, Cumberland, North Atlanta, etc., into downtown. And so does Gwinnett Transit, Cobb Transit and MARTA.
Under the TSPLOST — Cobb, Gwinnett, (and Clayton) will be getting millions to continue to compete with GRTA, which is also getting millions to compete with Cobb, Gwinnett, Clayton and MARTA. The TSPLOST is going to make the balkanization of transit systems worse. Truly a dumb idea. All of this was pointed out to the folks under the Gold Dome, but they did not have the sand to deal with it.
To heck with high-speed rail. Figure out how to create a unified bus system and then, maybe, talk about commuter rail or high speed rail. But don’t hold your breath. That vision is lacking at GDOT, GRTA and the Gold Dome. (And yes, once you take a bus to Lawrenceville, you don’t have any way of getting around — its OK if you want to go to the mall, but that’s it).
Vote no on the TSPLOST and, by the way, enjoy your car.
Cosby
June 27th, 2012
7:54 am
Hmm..wonder how United Nations agenda 21 fits into the DOT plan
iggy
June 27th, 2012
7:55 am
And one more thing. The first high speed rail crash will have all the democrats up in arms, wringing their hands and spending billions more to improve safety. Just another boondoggle.
jd
June 27th, 2012
7:57 am
Kyle,
The cost of owning and operating an automobile involves much more than the price of gas. so — at 51 cents per mile, the allowable IRS rate, your cost of operating the vehicle is more like $150. Now, add your amortized cost of the highway infrastructure that you use to travel to Birmingham, and the opportunity cost of driving yourself versus time spent doing other things (like writing another column to earn additional cash) — and the true cost of transportation alternatives, from a rational economic point of view, becomes clearer.
@@
June 27th, 2012
8:10 am
“The Gulch”
Starting from a point of erosion?
JohnnyReb
June 27th, 2012
8:11 am
Great piece, Kyle.
So, high speed rail is not the thing to do. That means the same idiots who decided to make the Belt Line part of TSPLOST will try to put it in place.
Bob Loblaw
June 27th, 2012
8:12 am
@Dumb and Dumber: I’m trying to figure out which comments are dumb and which are dumber.
50 cents a mile is more accurate.
The comments about Europe having transit available from the train station is exactly why high-speed rail isn’t feasible in the South as of yet. Hooking up some big cities might bring changes in that regard, but exiting the station and standing on the curb with your suitcase is the image I see if I train it to Birmingham.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
8:16 am
I’m still trying to figure out why I’d WANT to go to Birmingham in the first place.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
8:17 am
Otherwise, the short answer to Kyle’s question appears to be “No”.
Thomas Heyward Jr.
June 27th, 2012
8:22 am
Wingfield spent to much time in Brussels…………the nation of meddlesome statist bureaucrats.
He was infected.
.
A Well functioning, consumer-driven,market-drivenpriced, Train system does not have to involve government.
.
When government DOES get involved………you have AMTRAK.(tax-payer slushed/subsidized ,1000 dollar ticket,three-day trip to Washington from Atlanta).
.
The tracks are already laid to J-ville, Savannah, Lousivile, or even L.A………..
Only Brussels-type government bureaucrats stand in the way.
.
DagnyT
June 27th, 2012
8:27 am
If you take the train to Birmingham at considerably more expense than driving, how do you get around town to see what you’d like to see? I lived there. Public transportation is not an option for a tourist. The only reason to go to Birmingham was to fly Southwest, but they’re here now, so why a train to Birmingham?
md
June 27th, 2012
8:31 am
Marta…..always in the red.
Amtrak….always in the red.
Half our airlines in bankruptcy…..
I don’t see how a piecemeal system of trains is going to be any different.
As for comparing to Europe…..different geography, density, ideology and mindset…..and if folks care to look they aren’t exactly in a position to pay for what they have either……it all comes at a cost and must be forever maintained……..
No artificial flavors
June 27th, 2012
8:39 am
Georgia is not ready until we are ready to heavily subsidize the rail infrastucture and fares. I would be ok with this is the results were visionary AND if the subsidies came not from new funds but from dollars used to add new lane miles of highway each year. However, most Georgians have never experienced anything but endless highway construction and are too resistant to change their menality about transportation. We cant even extend Marta for goodness sakes much less move along on the brain train from Athens to Atlanta along the 316 corridor. Georgia = transportation fail.
@@
June 27th, 2012
8:40 am
Europe seems to be a lot more concerned about global warming than we are in North America. Maybe so…but their concerns haven’t produced results.
When it was launched in 2005, the European Union’s Emissions Trading Scheme (EU ETS) was hailed as a major step forward in the fight against climate change. Covering 12,000 power plants, factories, and other industrial facilities — and nearly half of EU CO2 emissions — it was the world’s largest cap-and-trade project to date. EU officials saw it as the first of many carbon-pricing schemes that would eventually cover the globe.
Six years later that vision is looking a little clouded. With the EU ETS accused of failing to reduce carbon emissions, countries outside Europe delaying companion cap-and-trade systems, and critics charging that the carbon-trading mechanism has opened the door to fraud, profiteering, and “gaming” by participants, serious questions have arisen about the future of the EU’s grand emissions plan.
A scheme, “in deed”.
iggy
June 27th, 2012
8:43 am
No artificial flavors
June 27th, 2012
8:39 am
You seem very intelligent. Please tell us more oh great Swahmmy…
StephenD
June 27th, 2012
8:44 am
Do the European rail systems get national tax support? If so, add that to your real costs for rail.
Hard rails, once installed, cannot be moved or rerouted easily if business takes a down turn. Buses can change their routes if the route is unfeasible. If you want to induce rail ridership, close the roads.
That said. unlike a private business, if a federal/state-owned business is headed for failure, gov’t won’t let it fail, so citizens will be taxed to prop up a political mistake.
@@
June 27th, 2012
8:45 am
A lousy economy is the solution to reducing CO2 emissions. Since Obama failed to initiate his Cap&Tax scheme, he’s implemented the next best solution…
a lousy economy.
schnirt
Rail fan
June 27th, 2012
8:48 am
I partially agree and partially disagree.
I think rail can work on some of the aforementioned routes, and those should come first. Ie, Birmingham and Chattanooga should come first because of their proximity and lower cost. GA should look at this incrementally, not as an either / or solution. It would be helpful to have an alternative travel option over flying, which often suffers weather delays, or the car, which is so often subject to awful congestion.
In addition, the expensive part is the construction. It would be smart to acquire the rights of way now, when the land is cheaper. The corridors can no doubt be used for something, if rail ultimately fails (power lines, gas pipelines, another highway, etc.)
iggy
June 27th, 2012
8:49 am
@@ 845 – Touche’
Vince Wilson
June 27th, 2012
8:49 am
Kyle Wingfield nailed this one. Very well thought out. I’m a transit/rail advocate, but I’m realistic also. For the reasons Wingfield mentioned and others, I agree that high speed rail probably would not work here. With more companies using video conferencing and other technologies to eliminate the need for travel, businesses (in addition to travellers) won’t need rail as much either.
Eyenstine
June 27th, 2012
8:51 am
The mindset of most Georgians doesn’t lend itself to change, therefore there’s no way a high-speed rail system would be profitable. Doesn’t seem to be too many forward thinkers in these parts. Remember back in the 80s, when Gwinnett County voters time and again shot down Marta expanding rail service to the county? Metro Atlanta citizens are the very reason we have virtual gridlock these days on our highways during rush hour. Over the past 20 years or so we haven’t asked, nay demanded, that our elected officials address and fix these problems. (But hey, at least we can take our guns into the airport, can’t we?)
Sorry, but I’ll be voting a big fat NO on proposed tax increase to support the GDOT plan that would require me to spend money to travel in lanes that my tax money went to build in the first place. Much too little, way too late.
Metro Atlantans made their bed, and now they can lie in for time immemorial for all I care.
finn mccool
June 27th, 2012
8:53 am
Build theouter perimeterfirst.
No artificial flavors
June 27th, 2012
8:57 am
Intelligent, yes I am. My question to you is are you ok with the status quo? If so, my point is proven. If not, what alternatives would you enjoy?
finn mccool
June 27th, 2012
8:58 am
Iggy, you ever hear of european countries called switzerland, belgium, germany, norway, sweden, denmark, hungary, serbia, croatia, france? Didn’t think so!
Cassie
June 27th, 2012
9:12 am
Pro for high speed rail:
I hate flying so much nowadays that I have severely curtailed my air travel and now fly only a few times a year. (I had basal cell carcinoma a few years ago – so as a reward for having had cancer, I get groped at the airport every single time. Yay!) High speed rail as an option would be very attractive.
Con:
What do you do for a car at the other end? Even as a tourist in Savannah, you can get more done with a car.
dennis
June 27th, 2012
9:16 am
It is si sad and boring to hear anti-rail highway zealots ask questions like this. Is sunshine in Georgia feasible? Is dinner in Georgia feasible? Is shopping in Georgia feasible?
Of course quality rail passenger transportation in Georgia is “feasible”. All this nonsense about density, our supposed addiction to cars, etc. is just so much nonsense. Check out populstion density in France between Paris and Lyon, between which one of the most successful passenger rail operations in the world travels — it is less dense than most US passenger corridors under discussion.
What kind of transportation system we have is just a matter of political choice — Europe chooses both rail and roads, asphalt lobby dominated Georgia thus far just chooses roads.
ByteMe
June 27th, 2012
9:16 am
Kyle, good job on providing details on this. I agree: rail for short-haul (within 4 hours drive time) and air for longer routes is the most efficient and cost-effective solutions. Dbaj is also right: having just rail is not enough if it dumps you on the edge of nowhere with few choices for getting around. So it should be part of a larger solution.
Rail to Charlotte/Birmingham/Nashville/Knoxville/Savannah and even the Gulf Coast makes sense… provided that what we’re really doing is providing a way to reduce the number of regional airports that require FAA and local funding.
iggy
June 27th, 2012
9:17 am
I will let you figure that out, oh great SoothSayer…Lead us to the land of “People moving Milk and Honey.”
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
9:20 am
So you are comparing the lowest ticket cost for air – and the average expected ticket cost for rail….
Sorry, that’s not an appropriate comparison.
Air is efficient for long distances, rail for medium, and automobiles for short.
That’s how the economics work out. Allowing the customer a choice, with alternatives, equally subsidized is an appropriate solution.
Rail pollutes less that air or automobile, and is more energy efficient – but that seems not to be important to those that think energy is an infinite resource.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
June 27th, 2012
9:21 am
When government DOES get involved………
You get things like the US Interstate system. At least when its done right.
The system is named for President Dwight D. Eisenhower, who championed its formation. Construction was authorized by the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956, and the original portion was completed 35 years later. The network has since been extended, and as of 2010, it had a total length of 47,182 miles (75,932 km).[2] As of 2010, about one-quarter of all vehicle miles driven in the country use the Interstate system.[3] The cost of construction has been estimated at $425 billion (in 2006 dollars),[4] making it the “largest public works program since the Pyramids.”[5]
Eric
June 27th, 2012
9:22 am
A few people have commented that they have no reason to go to Birmingham. There really isn’t anything to do in Atlanta either, so not much reason for them to go to Atlanta, surely the dullest huge city anywhere.
Stevie Ray...Clowns to my Left and Jokers to my Right here I am....
June 27th, 2012
9:22 am
Kyle,
I think the biggest issue is that the demand for these particular routes may not be sufficient for business model…if system included access to NYC, DC, Chicago et al…I think you got something…
iggy
June 27th, 2012
9:23 am
Finn, you can take all the choo choo trains rides you want in Duluth. Perhaps the EU could learn something from them.
http://www.srmduluth.org/default.shtml
ViewFromMidtown
June 27th, 2012
9:23 am
Funny how so many commentators (and the columnist) seem to forget (or conveniently ignore) that commercial air travel is heavily subsidized and yet is still consistently and historically unprofitable. Witness the recently enacted Georgia state tax breaks for airlines, just one in a long history of subsidies.
Highways are subsidized, expensive to build, highly in-efficient and underutilized (when looked at over the fullness of operating times, i.e. 24×7x365) and require continuing operations and maintenance costs, yet anti-train/transit zealots routinely ignore those facts while attacking transit on those same points.
No one is trying to force you to use mass transit (locally) or trains (regionally), but by preventing their existence and taking those choices away from others, you ARE forcing people to have cars and drive.
Don't Tread
June 27th, 2012
9:25 am
Atlanta-Chattanooga might work. Atlanta-Macon might work. Atlanta-Savannah and Atlanta-Birmingham is about the break-even point, I think. I’m not sure the ridership would make it cost effective.
Rail works in the Northeast (think Washington-New York-Boston area) due to the population density, and they have enough demand to keep it going.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
9:30 am
Midtown seems to forget that airlines are also highly REGULATED by government, which also adds to their fiscal woes.
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
9:31 am
When are you going to provide the average air ticket vs. average rail ticket prices?
Otherwise your comparison is not valid. (guess you flunked that stats course way back, huh?)
Grasshopper
June 27th, 2012
9:32 am
Well thought out piece Kyle. The train romanticists must be plotting their revenge.
I’d be interested in knowing how many people actually travel back and forth from Atlanta to Birmingham on a regular basis. I know none.
Is the thought that Birminghamians would use a train primarily to get to Hartsfield?
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
9:33 am
Air travel used to be heavily regulated… but most of that regulation was removed… that’s why it costs a small fortune to fly to Savannah.
Yes, there are other regulations, but most of those are for safety.
Is high-speed rail really feasible for Georgia? | The Morning Move
June 27th, 2012
9:34 am
[...] AJC: The Georgia DOT recently declared “feasible” three passenger-rail routes from Atlanta to other Southern cities: a straight shot to Birmingham; a line to Louisville via Nashville; and a line to Jacksonville via Savannah. While these plans do not directly relate to the T-SPLOST, they are very relevant to the multimodal transit hub planned for “The Gulch” in downtown Atlanta. But how feasible are these routes, really? [...]
Intown
June 27th, 2012
9:34 am
At this point in America, building rail is more about economic development and transforming development patterns than it is a currently feasible option. With that said, I’m still for the investment. I’m not limited by yesterday’s vision of economic development in GA and the southeast — (1) build road; (2) slap up cheap uniform housing with little forethought for quality of life; (3) let the people come; (4) complain about road traffic 35 mile/1 hour commutes and wonder how you ended up this way.
Don
June 27th, 2012
9:36 am
I know this stuff pretty well and you are very close to hitting the nail on the head.
The pieces you missed are:
1. “first mile/last mile”. The only valid trip times that count are door to door, not terminal to terminal. This raises two issues. Where are the terminals relative to the ultimate origin and destination? And, how do you get between the terminal and the origin/destination? At the origin, the traveler probably has a car and rail will most likely have a suburban and/or ex-urban stop. (think Metropark, Rt 128 and New Carrolton on Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor). Slight advantage to rail. On the destination end, both rail and air need to be supported by car rental facilities since none of the cities in the study except Atlanta have any real transit infrastructure.
This lack of transit tips the balance toward driving and away from air and rail for short and medium length trips.
2. Auto is the preferred mode of travel in Europe. In your fare comparison, you didn’t check Ryan and Eurojet. Their fares clobber all any rail fare of any type in Europe. But, even with HSR and discount air carriers, most people use their cars to make intercity trips in Europe. Only about 8% of intercity travel is by rail. (in the US it is <0.1% currently)
3. What can you do with the travel time? People in the northeast US ride Amtrak (Acela et. al.) more than they fly even though it usually costs more and takes the same time or longer. There is an overall "hassle-factor" involved with flying. Flying chops your time up into smaller, less useful or less restful chunks. Rail usually leaves the bulk of the time in one chunk – the time on the train -since the amount of motion to get through the terminal is less. Driving severely limits what you can do with that time – if you are the driver.
Generally, doing HSR before you have any regional transit in the major cities to be served is likely a fools errand. The first mile/last mile issues on shorter trips give auto a huge advantage here. In Europe, the intercity rail network is well integrated into the urban and suburban transit systems
Also, Europe didn't start with HSR, they developed their network incrementally, adding high speed links in cheaper to build rural areas and keeping the existing suburban/urban routes and terminals.
You have to walk before you can run. The two best steps toward improving intercity transport in the southeast are:
1. Build integrated urban/suburban transit.
Leverage existing rights of way hard to keep cost down (commuter rail, for example). It has to run all day long, not just rush hour. This won't be cheap and it won't ever cover operating costs and maintenance, but it will supply benefits that exceed the cost of the subsidy.
2. Expand passenger service on existing rail routes and work on improving speed incrementally.
This is what NC and VA are doing. VA recently added a train from Lynchburg to DC (and on to NY and Boston) that is covering more than it's operating and maintenance costs. They are adding a new route south from Richmond to Norfolk that is expected to do the same – starting at one train a day at 79 mph max speed. NC has had a program of increasing speed and frequency of their Charlotte – Raleigh trains for years now and is working with VA to get fast service on a route to Richmond and DC.
The Florida East Coast RR is planning private service from Miami to Orlando (at Acela-like speeds, 110 mph max) using their own money (although it is unclear how they will make enough to pay their capital costs)
Some routes are better than others in this regard. Atlanta-Macon-Brunswick-Jacksonville is has existing routes that are straight and flat. It's just a matter of putting down another track of the proper quality. Atlanta to Birmingham is full of curves that limit speed. Lots of expensive curve-straightening would be needed.
Manchurian-Kenyan Candidate
June 27th, 2012
9:37 am
…who’d want to go to Louisville???
jose
June 27th, 2012
9:40 am
I am not an expert but when I read the data on the cities you mention, I have to wonder why you didn’t include Charlotte, NC or Chattanooga, TN. Charlotte is booming and is working to connect itself to the east coast passenger rail network. There would be legitmate business reasons to travel back and forth. As for Chattanooga, I personally know at least 10 indiviudals who commute to ATL from either Chattanooga itself or the nearby area. I don’t know why anyone would go from ATL TO Birmingham.
Drudge
June 27th, 2012
9:42 am
HS Rail is the dumbest wannabe European scheme this administration has come up with yet. Maybe it’s because I am in aviation but there are some undeniable truths. 1) the largest country in western Europe could fit inside of New Mexico. 2) it would take you 2 days to get to Denver from ATL. 3) there is nothing to suggest that there is enough demand for frequent rail service between ATL and Birmingham or any other regional cities. 4) surface level rails are amazing terrorist targets and trains hold more people. 5) we have the best aviation system in the world, build the best airplanes in the world and train 95% of all pilots. 6) maintaining railways is very, very expensive. So you tell me, why should we do this?
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
9:43 am
Jose,
It’s all about selective statistics. Those that want to prove a point select how the analysis is done, and ignore evidence that shows their analysis is flawed. (bad destinations, invalid cost comparison, etc.)
Good point about travel to Charlotte – and for that matter, Savannah or Florida would probably do well.. unfortunately, Kyle will probably compare that with super discount airfares too.
Drudge
June 27th, 2012
9:45 am
A Realist, you have no idea what you are talking about. We deal with the FAA, NTSB, SEC, Homeland Security, DOD, DOT – and that’s before breakfast. It is the most regulated industry in the country – just ahead of pharmaceuticals.
Sherlock
June 27th, 2012
9:46 am
Whatever happened to rail to Chattanooga, where the airport could take some of the pressure off Hartsfield?
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
9:49 am
Drudge?????
Huh? New Mexico larger than western European countries?
NM – 315,194 sq km
France – 674,843 sq km
…and France is smaller than Germany
Italy is only slightly smaller than NM…
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
9:52 am
Yes, Drudge – safety items.
Everyone regulated by SEC.
Quit padding your information with inappropriate three letter acronyms.
md
June 27th, 2012
9:57 am
Airlines are not subsidized……passengers are subsidized.
Jefferson
June 27th, 2012
10:02 am
You move forward or you back up, nothing stays the same.
Red
June 27th, 2012
10:09 am
Commercial dirigibles – for the same amount of fuel consumption used to drive a capacity loaded SUV from Atlanta to Savannah- 150 passengers and cargo can fly at low altitude in half the time it takes to drive on the ground.
Aquagirl
June 27th, 2012
10:10 am
Airlines are not subsidized……passengers are subsidized.
That’s why the government sends you a check every time you fly.
Steve Dunbar
June 27th, 2012
10:11 am
Kyle,
As opposed to writng about high-speed rail service, why not write about the “Brain-Train” between Atlanta and Athens. The right-of-way is largely in place, the demand has been documented; the whole concept makes perfect sense. As opposed to writing about something that’s not going to happen, why not write about and support something that should and could happen?
Oh, that’s right. Republicans in the General Assemby are opposed to allocating any money for any form of mass transit. And you want to stay on script, don’t you.
Jimmy62
June 27th, 2012
10:13 am
Are there really that many people looking to go from Atlanta to Birmingham and back very often?
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
10:15 am
I’m going to respond to as many individual comments as I can, but I also want to make a blanket response to one common theme:
The comments about subsidies for roads, or airports, or rail, are beside the point. That’s not what I’m looking at here. I’m simply asking: Would the typical passenger be likely to choose rail or air (or auto), based on the price and travel time of each? If not, none of the other analysis really matters.
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
10:19 am
Road @ 5:56: Not directly, because we don’t know a) how many stops there might be (the GDOT document lists possible stops, but it’s also possible some of them would be scuttled or brought online later) or b) how many stops any particular train might stop at (it’s entirely possible, if there were more than one train a day, that one could stop at, say, Dalton on the LOU-ATL line and skip Cartersville, with the next train doing the reverse).
That said, the average speeds I used are inclusive of stopping times, because they simply divide the distance between the first stop and the last by the travel time between them. So, time taken for stops are indirectly factored in.
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
10:20 am
Dbaj @ 6:20: I agree.
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
10:22 am
jolliffe @ 6:27: Actually, that’s tricky because it varies depending on how full the plane, train or automobile is. A full train (this is also true for subways) typically will produce fewer emissions per passenger than a single-passenger car will. But that changes if the train is half full or a quarter full — and if the car has 3 or 4 people instead of one.
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
10:23 am
OK, typical passenger fares.
So you have to compare them with typical airline fares – and that’s NOT necessarily the cheapest fare, that’s the average fare, or for that matter, possibly the median fare. Your selection of the midpoint of the DOT fares is mean/median. You need to select the lowest rail fare for your comparison.
There are books written on how to lie with statistics – either you read one of them and use the techniques to distort the truth, or need to do some study.
Your quote: “compared to the midpoint of GDOT’s estimated prices for a round-trip”. You HAVE to compare the airfare with the MIDPOINT of the air fares to make a valid comparison.
I’d give you a F on your analysis – sorry.
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
10:23 am
Brent @ 6:28 (and others who raised this point): I’m not so sure that’s right, because the point of my exercise was to think like the average traveler might. And I’m not at all convinced that the average traveler considers how much sooner he’ll need to change the oil or tires on his car before driving 150 miles to Birmingham.
the red herring
June 27th, 2012
10:24 am
good job kyle– you have to have customers/passengers in order for this to succeed. i don’t see that
happening any better for these proposed rail systems than what is presently happening with marta.
people hatching these schemes are always figuring on using taxpayer (other people’s) money.
Glenn
June 27th, 2012
10:29 am
Where rail is feasible is around one hundred miles from/to Atlanta………….because no one wants to live in Atlanta .
Greg Bailey
June 27th, 2012
10:30 am
Kyle: Your analysis does not take into consideration all of the factors that should be placed into the analysis. A person taking the train can make phone calls, can open one’s computer and work, have conference calls and be prepared to conduct business without the toll on their body from driving. If one flies, one can work on the computer. However, they will enjoy limited access to the internet as well as to their phone. Indeed, the train would be preferrable to the train and driving.
colin micheals
June 27th, 2012
10:31 am
Would you anti Europe yokels like to tell me what area you prefer since you hate this great Democracy, longtime war ally and greatest trading partner? China with its torture and murder of dissidents perhaps? Saudi Arabia where they beat a woman if she tries to drive or shows her ankle? This article fails. To mention how High speed rail would improve our overall economy and increase business . Of course the Good Old Boys want us back in the dark ages. God forbid we should love or believe in the UNITED States of America enough to invest in it.
md
June 27th, 2012
10:31 am
“That’s why the government sends you a check every time you fly.”
Aqua….do you ever follow the logic all the way to the end of an equation?
The airlines are subsidized to serve small markets…..the passengers in those small markets do NOT pay market prices for their tickets due to the subsidy……therefore, it is the passenger benefiting from the subsidy, not the airline.
Remove the subsidy, and that same passenger pays twice as much for a ticket…..not enough passengers pay for the higher priced ticket and the airline simply stops flying to that city.
That passenger now drives to the next nearest airport…………
Aquagirl
June 27th, 2012
10:35 am
The comments about subsidies for roads, or airports, or rail, are beside the point. That’s not what I’m looking at here.
The comments about subsidies aren’t aimed at you, Kyle…they’re aimed at your fake conservative cheering gallery with their mouths firmly fastened on the air/road subsidy teat. Presumably you already know. Why you as a conservative don’t point it out is another matter.
md
June 27th, 2012
10:35 am
“Would you anti Europe yokels like to tell me what area you prefer since you hate this great Democracy, longtime war ally and greatest trading partner?”
How about “none of the above”. The us of a became the greatest nation on the planet because it isn’t/wasn’t like any of the others……………that’s changing rapidly these days though.
md
June 27th, 2012
10:38 am
Kyle….some of us are talking subsidy because others don’t understand them……and possibly never will.
These same type folks have no clue about tax cuts for corps to move into a state…..they usually fail to understand that if that corp never moves here the tax rate is always 0%.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
10:40 am
jose
June 27th, 2012
9:40 am
{{”I am not an expert but when I read the data on the cities you mention, I have to wonder why you didn’t include Charlotte, NC or Chattanooga, TN. Charlotte is booming and is working to connect itself to the east coast passenger rail network.”}}
You are correct that Charlotte, with the help of the state of North Carolina, is working to connect itself to the East Coast (Mid-Atlantic/Northeast) passenger rail network.
But the article is about the feasibility of a Louisville-Nashville-Atlanta-Savannah-Jacksonville (which would include a stop in Chattanooga between Atlanta and Nashville) and an Atlanta-Birmingham high-speed rail line because those were the lines that GDOT recently found to be viable/feasible in their very own recent study.
High-speed rail service has already been studied and proposed on the current Amtrak Crescent/Norfolk Southern rail line between Atlanta and Charlotte by both GDOT and the Feds.
Also, Charlotte isn’t exactly booming these days as the unemployment rate in Metro Charlotte is 9.5 percent, which is nearly a full percentage point higher than Metro Atlanta’s unemployment rate which currently stands at 8.6 percent.
Charlotte was actually hit even that much harder than Atlanta during the housing-driven economic meltdown as Charlotte was (and despite the recent severe economic troubles, still is) a major financial and banking center that included the headquarters of two mega-banks in Bank of America and the erstwhile-Wachovia that were caught deep in the middle of the housing mortgage debacle.
iggy
June 27th, 2012
10:42 am
“yokel”. That the best ya got?
iggy
June 27th, 2012
10:43 am
Last I heard it was a Republic.
“”I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands”
Ekim
June 27th, 2012
10:47 am
Iggy has no intelligent points to make; so (s)he brings the level of debate down by throwing water on everyone else’s comments. Way to go, Iggy! Keep it classy.
ragnar danneskjold
June 27th, 2012
10:47 am
The death of rail is nothing more than Schumpeter’s Gale. That uneconomic ideas require the monies of government is no surprise; the surprise is that so many people buy into such waste.
bu2
June 27th, 2012
10:52 am
Kyle;
You’re thinking about the wrong “average” traveler. You are only looking at the least profitable passenger-the leisure traveler. You need to think about business people flying or having to drive because 1 week advance air fares are too expensive.
On the short haul, HSR will do very well vs. air-Atlanta to Nashville, Birmingham, Jacksonville, Charlotte. The question is whether you have enough travel, especially business travel, on those routes. If you’ve got sufficient flyers, you can support HSR. It would be good if some of the short haul could be pulled out of Hartsfield and onto rail. Expansion of airports is very expensive and building a whole new one is enormously expensive. Hartsfield will eventually be outgrown by the air traffic.
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
11:01 am
Bu2,
Exactly! Kyle’s analysis is interesting, but the core of the conclusion is based upon price…. and Kyle is using the wrong price!
Eventually airports and traffic corridors will be at capacity, and more flights will be infeasible.
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
11:07 am
Ayn @ 7:10: I guarantee you I’ve spent more time in Europe — the real Europe, outside the touristy areas — over the past eight years than you have.
Fender Man
June 27th, 2012
11:08 am
The obvious high speed rail trip is Orlando/Disney. The trains have to be high speed, 150MPH or greater with limited short stops if there are stops at all. If a high speed rail could cut travel time to 4 hours as opposed to an 8 hour drive, high speed rail might have a chance to succeed. And add a shuttle service to Disney from the train station.
I personally like Chattanooga to Nashville and a run to Savannah.
As far as a car, when one flies a car is needed too. There’s no difference. The car rental
companies would have lots at the train station.
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
11:10 am
Skip @ 7:32: Yes, a ticket for tomorrow would be much more expensive — but I also have no way of knowing how much the train ticket price would vary for tomorrow vs. two months from now. I tried to pick what seemed like a reasonable comparison to GDOT’s projected train-ticket prices.
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
11:13 am
Cassie @ 9:12: Just wait til the TSA makes rail travel as passenger-friendly as air travel. And believe me, it’ll happen at some point.
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
11:17 am
jose @ 9:40: Chattanooga is on the way to Louisville…
Jefferson
June 27th, 2012
11:22 am
What’s the savings on road expansion ? Pollution ?
zeke
June 27th, 2012
11:24 am
Main objections I have to such services are costs to build at taxpayer expense, constant subsidies at taxpayer expense, never efficient or convenient, and, wanting to use freight rail lines for the high speed passenger trains IS NEVER SAFE!! I had the opportunity to ride the Japanese Bullet Train from Tokyo to Osaka in 1985! About a 3 hour trip at 125 mph with very few stops! The great thing was the no road ever crossed the track, no pedestrian could cross the track, no animal could cross the track, IT WAS AS SAFE AS IT COULD POSSIBLY BE! But, it was still not convenient when you reached the city and had to find a cab, trolley, bus or just walk to your destination! High speed rail may eventually work here one day, possibly in a couple of hundred years, that is if the liberal socialist do not completely destroy our great country!
1961_Xer
June 27th, 2012
11:29 am
A family of four probably wouldn’t even consider spending more than $1,000 to take the train to Jacksonville when it could spend $118 on gas — and have their car with them, making it easier to get around once they’ve arrived.
For me, that says it all. This is a typical summer vacation for a typical family in the Metro Atlanta area. We typically go to St Simons/Jekyll/St. Marys/Fernandina Beach/St. Augustine/etc. At current prices, $118 buys about 832 miles in my 6cylindar sedan. A more fuel efficient car could go even further (I get 22mpg). And that is just getting there/back. You still need transportation when you get there, and the longer you need it the more you save by driving. A one week car rental on top of the $1000 round trip train ride. Even at $10 a gallon, it would still make more sense to drive.
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
11:30 am
A Realist @ 10:23: You can put down the axe and stop grinding it.
I picked the midpoint because the top and bottom of the range don’t represent anything real. They represent, well, the top and bottom of a range of prices that might be charged if the routes come into existence. It is no more reasonable to pick the low end of the range than the high end. Given all that, I thought it was most reasonable to pick the midpoint so that no one could accuse me of slanting the analysis in favor of rail (by picking the low end of the range) or against it (by picking the high end of the range). Apparently, I underestimated the propensity of some people to whine no matter what.
And, as I explained earlier, I chose the airfares the same way I would if I were choosing one for two months from now. The median fare doesn’t mean anything to a person booking an airline ticket today for two months from now; the lowest available fare does.
Btw, the exact same methodology is the one that showed rail travel is cheaper than air travel in Europe.
md
June 27th, 2012
11:30 am
One of the reasons I quit riding Marta was convenience……by the time I sat in the car (traffic) getting to the nearest station, then canvassing the parking lot looking for an open space, then waiting for the next train after just missing the first one while driving around in the lot, it was just as inconvenient to stay in the car all the way to my destination………..
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
11:31 am
Greg Bailey @ 10:30: Your comment makes some assumptions about who is traveling and why. I tried to avoid that with my analysis and keep it as neutral as possible.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 27th, 2012
11:31 am
We left out the obvious choice here, Escalade, 79MPH, Led Zeppelin hammering out of the Bose 7.1’s and no hairy liberal women crowding me out.
Priceless.
Kyle Wingfield
June 27th, 2012
11:34 am
bu2 @ 10:52: Business travelers are, generally speaking, also the least price-sensitive consumers and most likely to look at travel time, among other factors. And, except to Birmingham, rail doesn’t stack up well to air on travel times.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 27th, 2012
11:36 am
And, you can’t intimidate any nearby Priuses while you’re on a choo choo train.
md
June 27th, 2012
11:36 am
The main difference I see is public vs private……the airlines are funded by the market through the private sector (except where our tax dollars fund the small market rider which is another discussion) while these trains will apparently forever be funded by the taxpayer/consumer.
I’ll take the private sector approach vs indefinite taxes………
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
11:37 am
Kyle,
No Axe here… but statistics is my field of expertise – and you are comparing apples and oranges on price, and then publishing an invalid conclusion.
But since I was one of those nerds that took all the math and stats in grad school, and then did that stuff for a living, so what do I know?
JDW
June 27th, 2012
11:39 am
@Kyle…”I’m simply asking: Would the typical passenger be likely to choose rail or air (or auto), based on the price and travel time of each? If not, none of the other analysis really matters.”
While your statement is true your analysis falls short. If I wanted to go on a weekend trip leaving on Friday July 6th and returning on Tuesday the 9th best Delta rates are:
Birmingham $467…Advantage Train
Jax $263…Tossup
Louisville $677…Advantage Train
If I had a business trip that required travel starting on Monday July 9 and returning on Thursday the 12:
Birmingham $477…Advantage Train
Jax $307…Tossup
Louisville $829…Advantage Train
The other bit your analysis leaves out is time of day considerations. The airfares are lowest possible. If say I had to be home by 6:00 on the Thursday and on the ground by 10:00 when I left…
Birmingham $477…Advantage Train
Jax $432…Advantage Train
Louisville $918…Advantage Train
Seems to me using your criteria (and todays prices…2020-2040 prices will be higher) train wins most times…as it does where it has already been proven.
Having done both a lot the other factor you overlook is comfort…you can get lots more work or anything else done on the train from London to Paris (or Atlanta to Jacksonville) than via plane.
md
June 27th, 2012
11:41 am
JDW…..and you are assuming that trains will not also have flexible fares that may be higher without advance purchase……
BossDaley
June 27th, 2012
11:41 am
When did Americans become so chickens**t about spending money to invest in our infrastructure?
Take a deep breath, and listen very carefully. Everything. Costs. Money.
Jefferson
June 27th, 2012
11:44 am
Think ahead, that’s what you build for.
Bob
June 27th, 2012
11:46 am
Rail works great in places with good public transit systems and where big cities are close to each other and where the population density is relatively high. The low population density of the Southeast combined with inadequate public transit makes rail travel expensive and inefficient. Why can’t we accept that the automobiles (cars/trucks/buses) are the most flexible and low cost mode of travel for our region? Why can’t we understand that we are not like the Northeast where cities are close together making rail travel more practical? Why don’t we understand that bus systems running on compressed natural gas are far more cost efficient than rail right now?
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
11:47 am
md,
A good point, but unfortunately there is another item in play here.
Railroads (generally) own the right of way. AMTRAK is a government entity (sort of) traveling on private right-of way.
Roads are publicly owned. Automobiles/trucks that travel on them are privately owned. So you have private modes of transport riding on a government provided medium.
Next: Air travel…. The air is controlled and regulated by, you guessed it, the government. Private companies and individuals privately buy the vehicles (planes) and travel on that government provided medium – just like roads!
Because of this, you really can’t compare public vs private with rail/highway/air since the latter two are government provided systems of transportation, and rail is private… and the individual vehicles (AMTRAK) on rail are government provided, and on roads/air they are privately provided.
Now if the government would provide a high speed rail system, and then allow private companies to run the trains….. that might allow a valid comparison.
yuzeyurbrane
June 27th, 2012
11:47 am
I love trains. And they make sense some places like Northeast Corridor. But, regrettably, I must agree with the key points of Kyle’s analysis.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
11:54 am
“Would you anti Europe yokels like to tell me what area you prefer since you hate this great Democracy, longtime war ally and greatest trading partner?”
An America before liberal policies ruined it?
Jefferson
June 27th, 2012
12:02 pm
Sounds like grumpy old people.
JDW
June 27th, 2012
12:05 pm
@MD…”JDW…..and you are assuming that trains will not also have flexible fares that may be higher without advance purchase……”
Train fares used were at the highest end of the range. I am also working off substantial proven history…rail works in short to mid haul routes where there is sufficient travel to support them, that’s the real key.
JDW
June 27th, 2012
12:06 pm
@Tiberuis…”An America before liberal policies ruined it?”
Still living in the 1850’s I see.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
12:10 pm
Actually, I live in the real world, JDW (unlike you), I merely yearn for what were much better days for this nation.
Dusty
June 27th, 2012
12:16 pm
I love trains too. More fun. Look out the window at the passing jigsaw landscape. Relax and enjoy.
Then comes the economy! Trains are too expensive for fun. Kyle shows us that “economy” does not ride with rail. I commend his thorough approach. Throw in a few jokes and it will be wonderful!
Airlines? Not “economical” either.
Ah ha..cheap! Ride Greyhound! You’ll share the ride with people you never shared with before! The scenery is just as good and the seats aren’t too bad. I once rode across the USA on Greyhound and it was fun. From the seats surrounding us (my daughter went too) we had a college student, a Haitian refugee (No English), a retired colonel’s wife, and a few other interesting people. I brought a big box of snacks and we made merry.
Oh, I know. You are talking business here. Workers and erstwhile residents who must travel each day to work etc. Do what is best for you. But best is not raising taxes to solve every problem.
Economize! Cut costs! Think twice! Treat politicians like they work for YOU. And if worse comes to worse on tranportation…work at HOME or retire!.
Aquagirl
June 27th, 2012
12:19 pm
the airlines are funded by the market through the private sector (except where our tax dollars fund the small market rider which is another discussion)
Apparently md has never heard of the FAA, the Federal Air Transportation Stabilization Board, airport financing, Air Marshals, federal subsidies for airline pensions, tax exemptions for fuel…..well, I could go on, but since the LALALA WUT SUBSIDIES? will continue, it’s pointless.
If your worldview depends on airlines = good, rail = bad, there’s no place for logic or math. Only tender fee-fees.
AmVet
June 27th, 2012
12:27 pm
“and, by the way, enjoy your car.”
Agreed.
And for all of you sad sacks in Johns Creek, Duluth, Suwanee, Cumming, Kennesaw, Woodstock,etc, enjoy the 500 hours or more a year that you spend in that wonderful stop and go traffic every single working day of you lives.
I guess listening to the idiots on talk radio makes it all worthwhile!
Dusty
June 27th, 2012
12:31 pm
Aquagirl, 12:19
Come on. Don’t be so fussy. Did you have sardines for lunch or something?
So government controls the airlines and furnishes the PASSENGERS who pay for the sudsidies and the ride which are managed by big business.. Right?
It’s a balance, babee! One cannot do without the other.
carlosgvv
June 27th, 2012
12:32 pm
Kyle, for once, I agree with you. What works for Europe may not work here.
Dusty
June 27th, 2012
12:34 pm
And now comes AMVET while working at TacoBell in Doraville. He has no problem with transportation. Whatsa matter wid everbody when AmVet knows all??
JDW
June 27th, 2012
12:36 pm
@Tiberuis..”Actually, I live in the real world, JDW (unlike you), I merely yearn for what were much better days for this nation.”
And therein lies your true problem. The “Good Old Days” never existed and never will. It’s up to us to live today and plan for the future…not the past.
Don’t believe me, of course not…check out the search for the “Good Old Days”
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-january-5-2010/even-better-than-the-real-thing
Dan
June 27th, 2012
12:44 pm
All you need to understand in order to realize while rail is not feasible in the US is population density. Europe has it and the US does not. Population density brings efficiencies for transportation at the rail destinations, taxis busess etc as well as a larger tax base per mile of track and it provides negative motivation i.e expensive parking, or no parking. It really is simple economics and has zero to do with good intentions, ecology or awareness
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
12:44 pm
“The “Good Old Days” never existed and never will.”
Denial from liberals is the standard operating procedure for discussion these days.
Thanks for confirming that.
Dusty
June 27th, 2012
12:47 pm
Phew what a day! It seems that poor JDW never had a good day in his life and you better believe it or he will cram it down your throat! Yes sir. Good days are an annoying anachronism and you can ride your train or car right into you know where…. says our happy blogger.
LIberals are really grouchy these days. I tell you. I guess they did not get invited to the Varsity to share a Big Orange with the Big O while he was in Atlanta. Boohooo…..life isn’t fair!
Road Scholar
June 27th, 2012
12:54 pm
Kyle: there was a rep from the German government on tv that stated that in 2000, Germany made a goal of clean, renewable energy use to be 20% of their energy expenditure by the year 2010. Well in 2012 they made their goal! So much for all the whining by Americans that it can’t be done!
Road Scholar
June 27th, 2012
12:57 pm
“What works for Europe may not work here.” Perhaps due to all the whining. If we set a national goal, and people pulled together to achieve it, then…. But we spend all our time insulting the other side and saying “no”. I wonder if we will get anything done?
Dusty
June 27th, 2012
1:00 pm
Road Scholar, 12:54
Why don’t you tell us how the Germans did it? If they did it in twelve years, we should be able to do it in six. (See! Good ol’ American optimism!)
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
1:02 pm
“Kyle: there was a rep from the German government on tv that stated that in 2000, Germany made a goal of clean, renewable energy use to be 20% of their energy expenditure by the year 2010. Well in 2012 they made their goal!”
Well, considering their megawatt usage is approximately 14% of ours, bully for them!
In case you didn’t know, there is a huge difference in cost and scale. Add to that, artificially propping up the rest of the world’s economy and security for the ungrateful b@st@rds does take it’s toll on our own resources.
tiredofIT
June 27th, 2012
1:09 pm
“Actually, I live in the real world, JDW (unlike you), I merely yearn for what were much better days for this nation.”
You mean when we had a middle class making a respectable salary and tax rates on over a million dollars of income were much higher that today’s?
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
1:12 pm
tiredofIT, unlike you, who yearn for the days when people’s hard-earned money was taken by the government in record level, my yearning goes towards the days when I had much more freedom to live my life without constant government interference.
If you want to see a resurgence in the middle class, get rid of most government operations and programs. They just drag the majority of people down to their level, not allow them to achieve a higher one.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
1:16 pm
Dusty
June 27th, 2012
12:16 pm
{{”But best is not raising taxes to solve every problem.”}}
I agree. Taxes cannot be raised forever and ever and ever to solve every problem as the users of a certain service or infrastructure are going to have to start bearing most, if not all, of the true costs that is actually required to provide said service or infrastructure.
We can build-up our transportation infrastructure, it’s just that those who use each major piece of that transportation infrastructure are the ones who should be expected to fund the costs of constructing, operating, maintaining and expanding it, not the taxpayers as a whole who are pretty much tapped-out from an already high-enough tax burden.
Fund transportation improvements with USER FEES, NOT never-ending tax increases.
Mike Sanders
June 27th, 2012
1:18 pm
I read years ago the statement that NO railroad in the world has ever made money carrying passengers. High speed is even worse, fenced road bed, highway overpasses, and just buying all that land. A mile of railroad get you a mile of travel, a mile of runway get you travel to anywhere!
carlosgvv
June 27th, 2012
1:22 pm
JDW – 12:36
Twenty years from now, when global warming is running amok and conservatives have succeeded in ruining our country , 2012 will definitely be “the good old days”.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
1:24 pm
“Twenty years from now, when global warming is running amok”
You mean the global warming that the most ardent supporter recently said was overstated, carlos?
That global warming?
tiredofIT
June 27th, 2012
1:26 pm
Tiberius – by your initial comment that is the time I thought you were referring too. What time were you referring too?
No artificial flavors
June 27th, 2012
1:31 pm
Re: most of the comments here: Way to aim high Georgia! Lots of complaing, no solutions. Like it or not this region is still growing. Building more lane miles is not smart planning. Too bad we don’t have an Eisenhower for the 21st century and a population that thinks big and long-term. Remember, if we Georgians can’t solve our transporation problems in another decade or so I’m sure the federal overlords would be ready to tell us what to do.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
1:32 pm
No, tiredofIT, you were referring to ax rates and how much this government can pry from free people’s hands.
The one thing you have NEVER cared about is the size of government (unless it is bigger) or the freedom of individuals to do what is best for themselves.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
1:33 pm
Convenience is the biggest thing along with cost for using a car. You have to load the car and drive to the train station or the airport, pay to park, carry your bags inside, and pay the ransom to get it on your flight or train. For short distances it is so much more convenient to just keep driving and handle the luggage once, instead of two or three more times.
I mean really, how many people are going to fly/train to Bham, Savannah, Jacksonville, or Nashville and rent a car? Government always making plans for what they hope you will do, rather than accepting the reality that people are always going to do whatever is the easiest.
iggy
June 27th, 2012
1:35 pm
Face it. Living in a metropolitan area comes with congestion. The only way to resolve these congestion issues is to move to rural areas or a massive metro area population decrease.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
1:37 pm
That’s because government isn’t looking for easy or efficient, Rafe.
Just control.
That is their sole purpose for existing.
No artificial flavors
June 27th, 2012
1:38 pm
Ever heard of a cab? I use them in every city i fly/train to.
iggy
June 27th, 2012
1:38 pm
Global warming? That sounds like something Al Goron woudld say. LMAO…what a crock.
Rail fan
June 27th, 2012
1:42 pm
Kyle “Would the typical passenger be likely to choose rail or air (or auto), based on the price and travel time of each?”
In a highly congested future, I think the answer will increasingly be “yes”. So “buy” the optionality NOW by acquiring ALL the rights of way, build the most sensible lines (Birmingham), defer the construction of the rest until it makes great sense.
Rail fan
June 27th, 2012
1:45 pm
If someone told you Atlanta was going to be 10 million people, Charlotte will be 5 million, and Nashville 5 million, and Jacksonville a city of 4 million, people might start to think about this differently. You’ve got critical masses there, and the airports and roads can’t handle all the volume.
Or do we want to just accept third rate, under-scaled, infrastructure?
JDW
June 27th, 2012
1:46 pm
@Tiberuis and Dusty…you guys keep on living in the past and fighting for days that never were. The rest of us will live today and drag you kicking and screaming into tomorrow.
Should you guys decide to educate yourself a bit here is a nice addition for your book shelf…
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Old-Days-They-Were-Terrible/dp/0394709411
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
1:47 pm
“Or do we want to just accept third rate, under-scaled, infrastructure?”
Why not? We voted in a third-rate, under-scaled President in 2008 . . .
JDW
June 27th, 2012
1:48 pm
@Rail Fan…”Or do we want to just accept third rate, under-scaled, infrastructure?”
I see you have followed politics around here for the last 10 years. Most of these people are too busy looking for the “Good Old Days” to notice the roads are beginning to resemble cow paths.
iggy
June 27th, 2012
1:48 pm
If we construct this money losing debacle how will it affect the other money losing debacle, Amtrak. Will we now have high speed and low speed rail operations and their accompanying annual debt, cost overruns, mis-management, employee pilferages etc?
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
1:49 pm
The next person who tries to drag me anywhere against my will will be the one doing the screaming, JDW.
iggy
June 27th, 2012
1:52 pm
This high speed rail, pie in the sky idea is not unlike, Marta, the beltline, trolleys. Just another govt jobs program.
tiredofIT
June 27th, 2012
1:54 pm
“The one thing you have NEVER cared about is the size of government”
Whatever you say? You seem to know everything. Why don’t replace Romney? At least you do have an opinion.
AmVet
June 27th, 2012
1:56 pm
Speaking of fast food, how many Triple Whoppers and Super-Sized fries have you stuffed into yoru face lately, porcine Dusty?
Lemme guess, oh large one. You get them with a Diet Coke…
iggy
June 27th, 2012
2:03 pm
What we need is for the Grand Poobah, Big Daddy-O to release more billions and billions of stimulus funds.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
2:03 pm
iggy
June 27th, 2012
1:35 pm
{{”Face it. Living in a metropolitan area comes with congestion. The only way to resolve these congestion issues is to move to rural areas or a massive metro area population decrease.”}}
You are very correct that living in a major metropolitan area/population center comes with congestion.
However, there are better ways for highly-populated area to resolve its congestion issues such as adequately and properly investing in a multimodal transportation infrastructure that is funded with distance-based user fees (like adequately-priced fares on transit lines and tolls on major roads) as opposed to never-ending tax increases which are very-limited in what they are able to fund no matter how high they are raised.
User fees have a much higher rate of return and are capable of funding a heckuva lot more of our pressing transportation infrastructure needs than tax increases from which only a very-limited amount of revenue can extracted, anyway.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
2:20 pm
Rail fan
June 27th, 2012
1:45 pm
{{”If someone told you Atlanta was going to be 10 million people, Charlotte will be 5 million, and Nashville 5 million, and Jacksonville a city of 4 million, people might start to think about this differently. You’ve got critical masses there, and the airports and roads can’t handle all the volume…”}}
{{…”Or do we want to just accept third rate, under-scaled, infrastructure?}}
Your comments raise a make a valid point, which is that is all of these seemingly endless discussions about upgrading Georgia’s (Metro Atlanta’s) lagging transportation infrastructure, the emphasis only seems to be slightly bringing the transportation infrastructure, which was meant only to accommodate up to about 3.5 million residents tops, almost up to date to so that it will be able to possibly accommodate the transportation needs of 4.5 million of the Atlanta Region’s 6 million residents, as opposed to planning to accommodate the transportation needs of additional residents and future population and economic growth like the 10 million number that you mentioned.
The local mindset seems to be a dogged determination to run-off and depress population growth or even push the area into a population decline instead of planning to accommodate future growth, a mindset that seems to be unique to Metro Atlanta amongst major Sunbelt population centers as there is no way that one would hear that kind of talk in North Carolina, where there is a multi-billion effort underway to vastly expand the Interstate System with the ongoing construction of new three-digit Interstate loops and bypasses around many of the state’s key cities (I-485 around Charlotte, I-540 around Raleigh, I-840 around Greensboro, a new I-40 & I-274 around Winston-Salem, I-295 around Fayetteville, a new I-85 through Central North Carolina, etc) to both improve traffic flow and improve the economic development prospects of many of the state’s smaller and mid-sized cities.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
2:28 pm
First steps in dealing with the congestion (that no one ever discusses)
1. Close the borders
2. Since our water resources are limited, limit the growth by requiring zoning which requires future homes to be built on half acre or more.
3. Disperse State and Federal Gov agencies closer to the people they serve rather than have them concentrated.
4. Downsize these mega schools into more neighborhood sized institutions.
5. Require all retail establishments to pay for road improvements and sidewalks necessary for new construction. Ease some zoning to allow for retail in more areas closer to neighborhoods.
6. Find incentives for telecommuting.
7. Eliminate “meetings” and “conferences” through promotion and education. Almost everyone who ever attended one, knows they don’t accomplish much, but bosses like them, so we have a plethora. Video/teleconferences are just as effective, with much less time and expense involved.
The world might be better if we concentrated on low cost alternatives rather than the usual Lib tactic of throw more money at the problem and hope it is at least partially successful.
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
2:31 pm
…and the only constant is change.
If one expects things to digress to the mythical ‘good old days’, or just stay the same, one is destined for serious disappointment.
Hey, maybe that’s the problem with those with their cranium stuck in dark places…
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
2:39 pm
Last Democrat
key cities (I-485 around Charlotte, I-540 around Raleigh, I-840 around Greensboro, a new I-40 & I-274 around Winston-Salem, I-295 around Fayetteville, a new I-85 through Central North Carolina, etc) to both improve traffic flow and improve the
All interstates I see, our federal dollars at work. Why do the NC folk get credit for money spent on interstates. The Feds don’t seem to be spending any of interstates in GA. This shows no great plan for congestion developed by the NC folk, they are just lucky the feds are trying to improve the interstate systems.
If Charlotte wants to grow, more power to them anyway, we have been there and done that. Bigger is not always better, just ask anyone who lived here in the 70’s, when we had a manageable size town and we took advantage of all the metro’s attractions, restaurants, and natural resources. Now it is so congested, no one in NW Metro wants to even think of trying to get to Stone Mountain Park and vice versa.
Road Scholar
June 27th, 2012
2:41 pm
Dusty: Sorry, had to cut the grass! My typo…their target year was 2020 not 2010. They delivered 8 yrs ahead of the goal year. They did it by letting people figure out how THEY could participate and they placed solar panels on barns, homes, building roofs, fields, etc. The panels in the fields allowed cows and livestock to graze amongst the panels. They were in rows with enough room for a hay baler to go between the rows of panels and their foundations also. A farmer rcd a loan from a bank to pay for the panels installation ( don’t know if the government backed the loan), and then ran his farm from the electricity produced (saving on their electric bill) and sold back to the power company the excess electricity. His first year his income from the electricity was about …get this…$700,000. He was paying off the loan as he went along.
The government challenged the people to get involved with how they could benefit. Now this was done with some folks having a dislike for the appearance of some of the panels, esp in villages, but it was a success none the less. Don’t know how they actually got this past the NIMBY’S and the BANANA’s, but the nationalism to reduce foreign fuels influence was the motivation behind the program.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
2:44 pm
…and the only constant is change.
Did you borrow that line from Oblamer. Many knew then, and have been proven right by his actions, that not all change is good.
I prefer just the good change or the status quo.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
2:48 pm
The type of very-counterproductive anti-infrastructure mindset that seems to be very prevalent in Metro Atlanta and Georgia is also very hard to find in Texas where the state is continuing to execute a very ambitious long-term strategy of investment in transportation and water infrastructure that includes the construction of a dozen new toll roads and the recent widening of the I-10 West/Katy Freeway to as many as 26 lanes in some places in Houston, the construction of a network of public-private toll roads around Austin and the construction of six new toll roads, 130 miles of rail transit lines (light rail and commuter rail lines) and two-dozen manmade locally-controlled reservoirs for flood control and water supply in the Dallas-Fort Worth/North Texas Region.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
2:48 pm
Road
Nice story, but America has a better option than this visual pollution and inefficient solar energy, cheap natural gas. Seems no one here, except Boone Pickens, is committed to developing our natural gas resources, so solar panels are not going anywhere in America anytime soon.
Road Scholar
June 27th, 2012
2:51 pm
Rafe: get elected President…or czar if you only want positive change you agree with. Oh and have the congress in your pocket. Change is change and it is accelerating. Good decision making and planning determines how good change exceeds bad change. The status quo is a bygone dream. Get over it. You do not and can not control all the variables that affect change.
AmVet
June 27th, 2012
2:52 pm
The use of solar energy has not been opened up because the oil industry does not own the sun. ~Ralph Nader
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
2:53 pm
Last Democrat
You are right, Texas is a phenomena and should be an example for the rest of the states, but other states are not willing to trust the private sector economy like Texas does. No state income tax, few regulations on industry, and an environment that boosts private initiative, rather than handicap it.
My daughter lives there and it is amazing the retail success and boom all over Texas, but as long as we have one political party trying to put government in charge of the economy, Texas is probably going to remain the exception rather than the rule.
Road Scholar
June 27th, 2012
2:56 pm
Rafe: did you see T Boone on Fox Sunday this past Sunday? He said the natural gas affect into the economy is being stopped by the Coen Bros because they want it all for their industries (fertilizers, etc.). You wouldn’t think that they would try to influence politicians and the decision makers, would you? Why not develop both? Both are virtually pollution free!
md
June 27th, 2012
2:57 pm
“Apparently md has never heard of the FAA, the Federal Air Transportation Stabilization Board, airport financing, Air Marshals, federal subsidies for airline pensions, tax exemptions for fuel…..well, I could go on, but since the LALALA WUT SUBSIDIES? will continue, it’s pointless.”
Of course we’ve heard of them…..those that actually pay taxes fund them……the rest of the funding comes from usage fees charged by the airlines…….ever heard of landing fees, lease fees, ticket surcharges, etc etc……all paid by the passenger.
Jefferson
June 27th, 2012
2:58 pm
Texas is in bad shape, dude.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
June 27th, 2012
3:00 pm
Dbaj
June 27th, 2012
6:20 am
Kyle, One thing that makes train travel in Europe easier is that when you get to your destination, the public transit systems are SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better over there than here. If you ride the train here, you would very likely still have to rent a car to get around where over there, you just get on the subway or bus and go where you want.
Spot on assessment. Most people would rather drive the couple hours and not rent a car when they get there.
itpdude
June 27th, 2012
3:03 pm
We should continue building more and more and more roads for cars. Because that’s been working pretty darn good!
md
June 27th, 2012
3:04 pm
“The use of solar energy has not been opened up because the oil industry does not own the sun.”
Merely simplistic tripe
If the history of private enterprise tells us anything, it tells us if there is money to be made folks would be making it. The above quote makes no sense…….if there is as much money in solar as there is in oil, the solar moguls wouldn’t give a flip about the oil moguls…………
JDW
June 27th, 2012
3:07 pm
@Tiberuis…”The next person who tries to drag me anywhere against my will will be the one doing the screaming”
Why you already are screaming…we are moving into the future and you are pining for “The Good Ole Days” on this blog every day. Your will is irrelevant, we are going and as long as you are on this side of the daisies you get the benefits.
Soon enough the Party of No will be in the rear view mirror and we will be able to move faster. Hope you enjoy the ride.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
3:08 pm
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer’s ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
2:39 pm
The construction of those new segments of Interstate Highway in North Carolina were not just paid for with Federal funds, they were also paid for with matching funds that the state of North Carolina was willing to come up with to get those new roads built.
The state of North Carolina is also utilizing user fees in the form of tolls to complete the remaining sections of the expressways that may have run short on federal funding and local funding with the remaining sections of NC 540/Western Wake Parkway/Triangle Expressway being completed with toll financing.
North Carolina also had an advantage of not having restrictions placed upon their roadbuilding funds due to non-attainment of air quality standards like Metro Atlanta did as none of their principal metro areas are as large as Atlanta is in Georgia with their largest metro, Charlotte, only being one-third of the size and population of Metro Atlanta meaning that NC’s mulitple smaller metros don’t put out as much air pollution as the much-larger Metro Atlanta does alone.
And its not just Charlotte that wants to grow in North Carolina, it’s the entire Interstate 85-anchored Piedmont Region (which includes Charlotte, Winston Salem-Greensboro and Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill-Cary) that wants to grow.
I know that Atlanta was seemingly a much more desirable and much more manageable town back in the 1970’s, but we can’t handle our overcrowding problems by intentionally running away population growth because when we do that we run away economic growth and we will pay dearly for it in the long run by becoming an overpopulated burg that resembles a Southern version of Detroit with a depressed and declining quality-of-life and an increasing high crime rate (even higher than now) because six million people don’t just leave an area overnight, they leave slowly, many of them resorting to crime here in an economically-depressed town before they finally decide to leave and become some other cities’ problem.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
3:09 pm
Road
The Koch brothers, the liberal bogeymen, yeah, I heard him. I’m sure they are involved as he said, but so are the environmentalist, who think any carbon freeing is bad. They have influenced Oblamer to oppose maximizing our natural gas reserves. The problem with solar panels is the batteries to store the power are not efficient cost wise and size wise yet. The panels have not been perfected either, i.e. Solyndra. It also takes a tremendous footprint to place enough panels, so that it becomes a visual eyesore. Cities in Western States have taken up dozens of acres trying to place enough panels to get enough juice to power anything of substance. They have the footprint (desert), do you know of anyplace in Georgia willing to give up dozens of acres to solar panels. I could just hear the uproar if we took up the side of some south facing mountain in North GA with solar panels.
Always Skeptical
June 27th, 2012
3:12 pm
The problems with American solutions to rail travel is that politically we have been forced to offer stops in too many towns that don’t matter. Amtrak already has a solution that they should expand nationwide. It’s the Autotrain. I hear it’s increasing ridership and making more money…even during the recesson. It’s also the only line of it’s type in the US. For 650 bucks, I took my family of 3 INCLUDING our loaded down car 900 miles from Washington DC to Orlando Fl. We moved while we slept in our cabin…non-stop. Dinner and breakfast were provided and I was able to keep my car and arrive well rested. I can drive to Nashville or Birmingham without a problem, I don’t need high speed rail there. What we need in Atlanta is an Autotrain hub that would get us non-stop to Central Florida, Chicago, Washington DC. They should build Autotrain hubs around cities that are big air hubs and forget the rest. If I could put my car on a train and travel to LA or Seattle in addition to the other cities I mentioned, I’d use Autotrain everywhere.
md
June 27th, 2012
3:14 pm
And I’ll ask you again Aqua……do you ever do any further research on the stuff you post??
Airline pensions are funded through PBGC…..which is a gov’t agency that gets it’s funding through user premiums…..there are zero tax dollars involved.
If you have a problem with so called “subsidies”, why don’t you research the subsidy to find more about who is paying for what vs just willy nilly throwing stuff out there and making yourself look silly.
You obviously have access to a computer…..use it.
Dr. Pangloss
June 27th, 2012
3:14 pm
Conservatives: because everything new is bad.
RetiredGuy
June 27th, 2012
3:14 pm
We should have a high speed, dedicated line from Miami to Jacksonville, to Atlanta to Chicago.
And I don’t mean high speed is 115 MPH. Europe has lines throughout the European countries that run over 200 MPH. Why is America so backward?
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
3:18 pm
Here is a look at what one of Atlanta’s direct economic competitors, Dallas, is doing to ensure their long-term economic prospects and viability through continued massive investments in their water and mulitmodal transportation infrastructures (rail, bus, toll roads, toll lanes, expressway reconstruction, etc).
Here is a link to a map of 16 new reservoirs proposed to be built in the State of Texas that will add to the state’s already abundant existing man-made water supply, an existing man-made water supply that is likely more than abundant with the proper water conservation measures, which despite the tendency throughout much of Texas towards extended dry spells, water conservation still is not necessarily all that popular of a concept as it should be in Texas, both socially and politically.
http://www.texaswatermatters.org/projects/save/SWRM2_2007-SWP-damsA.jpg
Here is a link to a map of the current and future Dallas area rail transit network (DART light rail, TRE commuter rail and DCTA commuter rail) through 2014:
http://www.dart.org/maps/currentandfutureservicesmap.asp
Here is a link that displays existing toll roads in the Dallas Region (Dallas has 90 miles of tollways compared to only 2.5 miles of tollways in Atlanta, not counting the I-85 HOT lanes):
https://www.ntta.org/roadsprojects/existroad/Pages/default.aspx
Here is a link to a page that displays the toll roads currently under construction in the Greater Dallas-Fort Worth Region:
https://www.ntta.org/roadsprojects/projprog/Pages/default.aspx
Here is a link to a page that displays the proposed future toll roads currently in the planning and development stage in the Dallas-Fort Worth Region:
https://www.ntta.org/roadsprojects/futproj/Pages/default.aspx
Here are some links to the Interstate 635 LBJ Express Project in which the I-635 North Loop (which is Dallas equivalent to Atlanta’s I-285 Top End Perimeter) will be reconstructed to include up to 13 miles of new express managed lanes, much of which will be depressed UNDER the existing untolled lanes for several miles of double-decked freeway across the Northside of Dallas:
http://www.lbjexpress.com/overview.asp
http://www.lbjexpress.com/about.asp
And here is a link to a video that illustrates Dallas’ plans to effectively double-deck one of their busiest stretches of freeway by basically running the new managed lanes underneath the existing untolled lanes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMc-ZPWo2nQ
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 27th, 2012
3:19 pm
If we could get high speed rail between Marietta and Club La Vela in Panama City, we’d really have something.
AmVet
June 27th, 2012
3:20 pm
md, you don’t know what you are talking about.
But that has never stopped you from opining on everything under the sun (get it?!) before!
BIG Oil has fought tooth and nail – for decades – any advances in competing technology. This is common knowledge. At least for those interested enough to have informed themselves.
And with pollution loving, science hating, globally cooled Republicans like the Bushbots – even going back as far as Ronnie removing solar arrays from the White House roof – is it any wonder?
Hell, Mr. BIG oil, you want billions every decade in handouts, subsidies, giveaways of the people’s natural resources and assets? And a slap on the wrist when you wreck ungodly environmental damage of American property?
No problem. Just fund my campaign.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
3:21 pm
Last Dem
Yeah, I agree that if you are not growing, you are dying, however, unplanned rampant growth is a cancer.
There are other just as important reasons for growth than congestion. Texas has horrible congestion, yet it continues to grow. It has limited water resources and a harsh climate. Why does Texas grow, a strong environment to do business, starting with low taxes. Georgia has many positives like good climate, transportation hub, good geographical location close to beaches and mountains, and above average rainfall. We will continue to grow, without adding trains to nowhere anyone wants to go, and inspite of our congestion.
md
June 27th, 2012
3:22 pm
“but we can’t handle our overcrowding problems by intentionally running away population growth because when we do that we run away economic growth and we will pay dearly for it in the long run by becoming an overpopulated burg that resembles a Southern version of Detroit with a depressed and declining quality-of-life and an increasing high crime rate (even higher than now) because six million people don’t just leave an area overnight, they leave slowly, many of them resorting to crime here in an economically-depressed town before they finally decide to leave and become some other cities’ problem.”
Too late………the process started several years ago…….hence the buildup of the Charlottes of the region. My entire family pulled up stakes and headed elsewhere as did many of my neighbors and co-workers……life is too short to reduce one’s quality of life in the too big city. (But I’m sure for every me there are some that love all the hectic masses)
md
June 27th, 2012
3:26 pm
“BIG Oil has fought tooth and nail – for decades – any advances in competing technology. This is common knowledge. At least for those interested enough to have informed themselves.”
So??
Has that stopped the natural gas industry from pushing into frakking and discovering huge quantities of natural gas?? Did they give a hoot about the demise of the coal industry in the process??
Shoot no…….if the money is in solar, they won’t give a rats patooty about cutting into Big Oils profits……..
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 27th, 2012
3:26 pm
Libtards: Because everything that makes government bigger is good.
See how two can play your silly game?
md
June 27th, 2012
3:27 pm
“At least for those interested enough to have informed themselves.”
So I take it you finally informed yourself about the direct relationship between trade imbalance and real wages then??
No artificial flavors
June 27th, 2012
3:28 pm
@Rafe,
There is a private company setting up a solar farm on many acres in Walton County near Social Circle. Check it out….
http://waltontribune.com/news/article_0403a748-30b4-11e1-b501-0019bb2963f4.html
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
3:28 pm
If lack of congestion was a panacea for growth, Plains, GA would be growing at astronomical rates. Last time I was through there, everything, including the Welcome Center, was closing.
Eugene
June 27th, 2012
3:29 pm
I would love to ride and dine on a train that only transported me from my hometown to and from some faraway high school, college or professional football event on Game Day in Athens, Atlanta, or some other Georgia Sports Town or to that once in a life-time concert in Atlanta, Savannah, Macon, etc. I have always thought that a good place to re-start Georgia’s statewide passenger railroad transportation system would be with demonstration projects such as to sporting events, concerts, educational activities.
For example: Beginning with the assumption that existing trains and railway lines are under-utilized because many of today’s commuters have never experienced the comfort and all of the amenities that were offered by all passenger trains in America.
A Realist
June 27th, 2012
3:31 pm
Rafe,
Way back – probably before you were born, there was a book by Alvin Toffler called Future Shock.
You might want to find a copy and give it a read.
Let me know when you’re done….
md
June 27th, 2012
3:31 pm
For Am….again:
http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/tdrc/hearings/09sept99/rscott.pdf
Inform yourself………..
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
3:37 pm
No artifical flavors
Get back to me when it is up and running. I will not hold my breath. A guy up here in Gordon Co was going on line last year with his. Haven’t heard a word yet about it being up and running, not sure he is still working on it. Hope it works, I have some underutilized land in S GA. The truth is that this one is going to cost 85 million bucks and take up 205 acres, so you have the loss of income from what the land could otherwise be producing.
A couple of GE’s natural gas fired generators could produce as much electricity and save him 80 million dollars and 204 acres of land.
md
June 27th, 2012
3:41 pm
“Stockton, California, said it will file for bankruptcy after talks with bondholders and labor unions failed, making the agricultural center the biggest U.S. city to seek court protection from creditors. ”
Public sector unions holding the taxpayer hostage……and the taxpayer says screw you…….
Hillbilly D
June 27th, 2012
3:44 pm
I’m still trying to figure out why I’d WANT to go to Birmingham in the first place.
Perhaps you’d want to take in the Rickwood Classic, played at Rickwood Field, the oldest ball park in the U.S., still in use. Yes, it’s older than Fenway.
nmonroe25
June 27th, 2012
3:52 pm
Kyle, great piece, but I steadfastly question whether rail is cheaper than air in Europe. Main line air service maybe, but Ryan Air is dirt cheap and other discount airlines are gaining a foothold.
Also, no one ever takes into account the number of point to point travelers between cities when saying rail would or would not work. There are thousands of point to point travelers each day between Paris and London, or Brussels and Paris.
Between Louisville and Atlanta? Doubtful it is more than 500 – even including cars. (US DOT has that kind of info). So what would possibly justify the tens of billions necessary to create these trains?
Nothing.
Hartsfield has massive capacity for additional local traffic (the base service is there; as local traffic grows, airlines can and will easily manage the connecting flow, leaving the level of service intact as local traffic grows.)
Trains are nothing but 19th centunry technology being applied to 21st century problems, regardless of how fast they go.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
4:02 pm
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer’s ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
3:21 pm
Texas may have horrible congestion, but with the continuing massive investments in water and transportation infrastructure, to outside investors it appears as if Texas is actively doing something about it as outside investors understand that major population centers are going to have massive congestion at times.
To many outside investors, it looks as if Georgia is doing nothing to tackle it water supply and transportation problems as not much has been done in terms of transportation in nearly two decades and it appears as though nothing has been done about water since Lake Lanier was built over 50 years ago.
The Dallas-Fort Worth area and North Texas region has nearly two-dozen locally-controlled and managed reservoirs to supplement their two federally-controlled reservoirs.
Overall available water supply is not a real problem in North Texas as much as it is a failure of the Dallas-Fort Worth area to embrace the type of continued water conservation measures that North Georgia finally realized that it had to embrace out of necessity during the ‘06-’09 drought.
If DFW ever chooses to consistently practice adequate water conservation, they’ll have more than enough water to get them through their frequent dry periods as they’ve invested in the construction of nearly two-dozen reservoirs over the past 60 years.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
4:08 pm
5 Signs the United States is Undergoing a Coup.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/06/5-signs-the-united-states-is-undergoing-a-coup/258904/
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 27th, 2012
4:12 pm
Finn, crybaby, we used to call it “checks and balance”. Democrats act like a spoiled brat whose parents finally said “no”.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
4:15 pm
@ Rafe-
Also, the type of private investment in public transportation infrastructure in Texas that you mentioned would be an absolute God-send if it were fully embraced as a way of investing in mass transit in Georgia.
The previous incarnation of the I-75/I-575 HOT Lane project was a public-private partnership in which a private company was willing to invest up to more than one-third of the cost of constructing, operating and maintaining the project during its lifespan.
Public-private partnerships may not necessarily be all that politically-viable for road projects, but they could definitely help the state move the ball forward for properly-placed rail transit-anchored projects, especially when the private funding is combined with user-fee or fare-based financing, the combination of which could make transit lines totally self-sufficient and totally negate the need for tax funded public financing.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
4:22 pm
Did Romney take a stand on anything today yet? The day is still young!
Come on Romney! Stand for SOMETHING!
We know what he likes:
1)cheesy grits
2) trees that grow just the right height
3) ummmmmmmm. I got nothing else
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
4:23 pm
nmonroe25
June 27th, 2012
3:52 pm
From what I understand, the feasibility study was done on an incomplete proposal as the proposed high-speed rail line that they are talking about is not supposed to stop at Louisville, but will extend north to Indianapolis where the line will link up with what is the present-day Amtrak Cardinal passenger rail line (between Washington DC and Chicago) and run through Indianapolis and on into Chicago, meaning that it is really a Jacksonville-Chicago high-speed rail line by way of Savannah, Atlanta, Chattanooga, Nashville, Bowling Green, Louisville and Indianapolis.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
4:23 pm
“Soon enough the Party of No will be in the rear view mirror and we will be able to move faster.”
Yeah, ’cause 2010 was such a glaring retreat for the GOP, right, JDW?
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
4:25 pm
“Did Romney take a stand on anything today yet?”
Yeah, Finn. More freedom than your Disaster-in-Chief wants is to have.
Anything else?
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
4:29 pm
Last Democrat
Just for the record the city of Canton has a massive white elephant water reservoir they would like to sell. It was built 5-10 years ago as a shared expense with the Cobb Water Authority. Canton wants out, it is bankrupting the city. They are getting no revenue and the bonds have to be paid each month. It took longer to build than planned and cost about twice what it was projected to cost, which is normal for public projects it seems.
Although the reservoir is full and water is available, they can’t get a permit from the Corp of Engineers to release water into Lake Altoona, for Cobb to draw from. The city has not needed the water, so they are not drawing out either. More government planning gone awry. This is the reason, none of the other reservoirs that were planned are being started.
@@
June 27th, 2012
4:29 pm
Is California’s bullet train feasible?
Not if environmentalists get their way.
Jerry Brown abandons bid to protect high-speed rail from environmental law
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/06/21/4577932/jerry-brown-abandons-bid-to-protect.html#storylink=cpy
Let’s see…originally the cost was gonna be $35 billion, then it went to $68 billion, now it’s gonna be close to $100 billion.
With the environmentalists in the caboose, the cost will likely rise to well over $100 billion.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
4:36 pm
Eugene
June 27th, 2012
3:29 pm
Restarting Georgia’s statewide passenger railroad system is not a bad idea as many smaller regional cities around the state outside of the Atlanta Region (Macon, Columbus, Rome, Gainesville, Dalton, Augusta, Savannah, Athens, Albany, etc) highly-desire a passenger rail link as an economic development tool for their sagging local economies and to have a direct psychological link to the perennial growth and prosperity of Metro Atlanta so that they feel that will that they are taking part in the growth and prosperity of the Atlanta Region that they feel has passed them over.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
4:39 pm
Finn/aka Cheesy Grits
3) Repeal Oblamercare, if the Supremes don’t act first. Thought I would help out as you were struggling there. I can go on if you wish, but you only wanted three.
I can think of three for Oblamer, if that helps, 1) Raise Taxes 2) wreck the economy 3) Restrain Energy Production. I could go on there too.
md
June 27th, 2012
4:40 pm
“Did Romney take a stand on anything today yet?”
Personally, I’d rather have a do nothing President than one that circumvents Congress and implements his own agenda…………….a la the current fella.
md
June 27th, 2012
4:42 pm
“as many smaller regional cities around the state outside of the Atlanta Region (Macon, Columbus, Rome, Gainesville, Dalton, Augusta, Savannah, Athens, Albany, etc) highly-desire a passenger rail link as an economic development tool for their sagging local economies”
Except their sagging economies can’t afford it so they usually want others to do the heavy lifting……
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
4:42 pm
@@
That California train story is a hoot. If they don’t get it started by 31 Dec, they lose the money. The environmental wieners will not let them get it started and Jerry is a charter member of the wieners. He wants to abandon his environmental advocacy in order to get that money and the jobs it will create.
Perfect case of the medicine becoming the poison.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
4:47 pm
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer’s ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
4:29 pm
The Canton reservoir is a really good example that Metro Atlanta does not need to go out and attempt to build a dozen major politically-difficult and financially-unviable reservoirs like a North Texas.
The Atlanta Region can likely much more effectively attain its increased water supply, water storage and even flood control objectives with the planning and construction of several dozen much smaller neighborhood-sized manmade lakes and reservoirs as a reservoir doesn’t have to be the size of a Lake Lanier or even a Lake Allatoona to be effective at helping to manage a region’s water resources.
A reservoir can be almost as small as a neighborhood lake to help achieve the desired goals of expanding the water supply, water storage and providing flood control.
MrLiberty
June 27th, 2012
4:49 pm
And don’t forget, thanks to the fascist/totalitarians in our congress and white house we will all likely face the pleasure of body cavity searches, gate rape, cancer-causing porno scans, etc. courtesy of the idiots at the TSA as they strive to infect even more of this country with their freedom-hating cancer. So easily add another 15-20 minutes to the train times in the near future and a few more if you have children as they will need to be consoled after their molestation.
What I do know is that I can drive all of those in comparable times for less money and can have the convenience of my car when I arrive. I can avoid the molestations (for now), bring what I want in the car with me, and don’t have to be subjected to the chronic schedule problems, etc. that we can certainly count on Amtrak for (if that’s who eventually runs these).
If these routes make economic sense, let a private consortium of investors risk THEIR money on the project. There is absolutely NO need to steal from the citizens AGAIN on yet another transit boondoggle.
Oh, and vote no on the SPLOST in July.
Jefferson
June 27th, 2012
4:50 pm
md seem paranoid to me, I may be wrong, I may be right.
Nothing is as bad as it seems, nothing is as good as it seems.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
4:54 pm
15 people or so a day want to come to Atlanta or go to Albany. How successful is a train going to be. When they invented the automobile and made it affordable, the train became obsolete for southern purposes. Maybe if you live in a filing cabinet sized apartment house crammed against an overpopulated apartment house on either side and parking is $200 per month and spaces limited, you use a bike to get around, and taxes are astronomical, you might want to take an overcrowded slow train.
So far, Southerners have avoided placing themselves in that type horrible, congested, overpopulated environment, but there are people on here rushing to embrace a future just like that. Save me a coolie suit, a bicycle, and a studio apartment, I maybe not be as enthusiastic about getting there and run as fast as some of you. If I don’t make it, it will probably be just as well.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
4:56 pm
md
June 27th, 2012
4:42 pm
Just because that’s what those smaller outlying regional cities around the state want does not mean that it is necessarily financially viable at this time.
Heck, most of these plans for rail may not necessarily even be fully-realized until mid-century as a transportation infrastructure network that complex cannot be built overnight.
And even in the currently seemingly improbable event that any of this proposed rail were to actually come online, it would more than likely come online one passenger rail line at a time and would be likely would not occur until the 2030’s at this point at the earliest.
JDW
June 27th, 2012
5:00 pm
@Finn…”We know what he likes:”
Don’t forget “firing people”
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
5:03 pm
Oh, romney is for Freedom? Oh, ain’t that quaint!
It takes passion to like freedom……
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
5:06 pm
JDW, he also likes shipping our jobs overseas!
Makes him some more moneyyyyyyyyy!
Road Scholar
June 27th, 2012
5:07 pm
Rafe by visual pollution , I thought that you were referring to those capitalist billboards that are along our highways blocking the view of America the beautiful? Oh, except the strip club and professional sport cheerleader ones!
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 27th, 2012
5:09 pm
President Romney is for lowering unemployment from Obozo’s 8-10% to a more Our-President-Bush-like 4-6%.
President Romney is for getting the deficit below Obozo’s disastrous $1.5 trillion.
President Romney is for reforming entitlements before they go broke–Obozo’s done nothing except hasten their demise.
President Romney is for keeping our missile defenses, rather than giving them away to the Russians as a more “flexible” Obozo wants to do.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 27th, 2012
5:11 pm
Democrats are for keeping those $0.70-an-hour jobs here in America. Problem is, folks want to get paid $20 an hour, and if they do, no one’s going to buy their products.
Democrats: Economic retards.
Jefferson
June 27th, 2012
5:11 pm
Romney likes to fire people, he like that he said.
killerj
June 27th, 2012
5:15 pm
Good Deduction My Dear Watson.
md
June 27th, 2012
5:16 pm
“md seem paranoid to me”
Merely stating the obvious……if one has their eyes open.
And spare us the out of context talking points on firing people…..that really makes you look silly.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
5:20 pm
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer’s ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
4:54 pm
{{”15 people or so a day want to come to Atlanta or go to Albany. How successful is a train going to be.”}}
For the sake of conversation, as there doesn’t look to be any trains to Albany coming online anytime soon and certainly not within our lifetimes at this point, any potential train to Albany wouldn’t just run straight to Albany, but would run out of Atlanta south to Albany by way of Conley, Ellenwood, Rex, Stockbridge, McDonough, Locust Grove, Jackson, Macon, Fort Valley, Montezuma and Americus.
Michael H. Smith
June 27th, 2012
5:26 pm
I’d really like to see just how much in government subsidies the airline industry in this country is receiving Kyle?
I’m not in favor of more AMTRAKS (gub’ment railroads), but then again I can’t and I doubt that you can completely take high speed rail off the table Kyle, as it seems you didn’t.
At some point limits come into this transportation picture. Only so much air space, only so much open land to build roads; then high speed rail starts to become more acceptable.
However, one last thought to pass along… Competition, in abundance and the diversity thereof, is the best Regulator and form of Regulation for the market and for the benefit of the consumers.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 27th, 2012
5:28 pm
Amen to that last paragraph, MHS!
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 27th, 2012
5:42 pm
Democrats Afraid to Be Seen with Obama?
Wouldn’t you be?
geez
You got that right
June 27th, 2012
5:49 pm
“Democrats Afraid to Be Seen with Obama?
Wouldn’t you be?
geez”
And he is still going to win. Yes, you read it here. No maybes , no could wins…… he will WIN.
“Write this down. Make a little note to remind you if you in case you didn’t know”
All the talk will not change the inevitable. It wont be because Obama is much of anything. It will be because Romney and the Republicans will FAIL to convince the right people in the right states.
It will be close, but NO CIGAR for Romney
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 27th, 2012
6:08 pm
Michael H. Smith
June 27th, 2012
5:26 pm
You make some very good points as high-speed rail is something take probably cannot and should not necessarily be taken off of the table over the long-term as our air capacity and road infrastructures move towards being completely maxed-out in the future.
But like many other posters on here have pointed out today, the high-speed rail infrastructure cannot reasonably be developed until well after the local transit infrastructures in principal major cities along a route, especially here in extremely transportation mobility-challenged Atlanta.
As of right now, Metro Atlanta’s most pressing transportation need is not high-speed passenger rail out to other cities around the Southeast.
Metro Atlanta’s most pressing transportation needs are expanding the capacity of our Interstate and freeway system to accommodate the increasingly heavy freight truck traffic that uses Atlanta-area Interstates on a very-consistent basis as well as providing a viable transit alternative to our crowded rush-hour freeways in the form of express commuter buses (shorter term) and regional commuter trains (longer term).
You also make a good point about not wanting anymore government-run railroads like Amtrak as any new rail transit alternatives that are developed should NOT be fully-operated exclusively by the government and should NOT be paid for with taxpayer funds and operated, but rather mass transit should be funded primarily with user fees in the form of distance-based fares and private investment that can actually help fully fund the full cost of constructing, operating, maintaining and expanding the transit service and infrastructure WITHOUT the use of public subsidies in the form of increased taxes.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 27th, 2012
6:08 pm
You got that right
It will be close, but NO CIGAR for Romney
Any chance you will also share the Mega Millions numbers with us?
I guess you think that Jerry Sandusky is innocent too, right?
md
June 27th, 2012
6:09 pm
Obama might have a problem……considering his base is still unemployed, they may have a hard time rounding up the funds to get them to the polls. Maybe they can convince the newly minted immigrants to drop them off on their way to get their work permits……….
You got that right
June 27th, 2012
6:20 pm
“I guess you think that Jerry Sandusky is innocent too, right?”
Uh? go after me for what I say but keep your sick Sandusky fantasies to yourself
You are sick
Serious Robuck
June 27th, 2012
6:36 pm
If we continue on our current trajectory in Georgia, I’ll be able to take the stagecoach home to Thomasville before too long.
md
June 27th, 2012
6:46 pm
“If we continue on our current trajectory in Georgia”
GA has more backwoods four lane than any state I’ve been through…….just because ATL has a problem doesn’t mean the whole state does. A lot of growth along the coast as the suburbanites have discovered a better quality of life……..sitting in a beach chair beats the heck out of sitting in traffic….
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 27th, 2012
7:10 pm
The only folks whining about traffic are the geniuses who work in Atlanta or on the other side of Atlanta.
Deal with it. You made that choice, not me.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
7:14 pm
President Romney is for lowering unemployment from Obozo’s 8-10% to a more Our-President-Bush-like 4-6%.
Oh WOW! That is SUCH a strong argument for what Romney “wants” to do. Too bad he doesn’t have, and can’t offer, a plan for getting there…..
I mean, I want world peace……but, ya know…..if wishes were horses…
President Romney is for getting the deficit below Obozo’s disastrous $1.5 trillion.
Same as above, where is his plan selling us on how he will get there?
chirp, chirp…
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 27th, 2012
7:18 pm
That’s not what President Romney “wants”. That’s what he’ll “do”.
It’s not exactly rocket science.
Just remove the anti-capital, anti-free-market, anti-private-property Marxist from our White House.
You got that right
June 27th, 2012
7:25 pm
Barry @ 7:18
That sounds good and it might be a start, but wont specific policies need to be put in place.
Will the world economy not continue to be a obstacle in terms of the US economy regardless of who wins the election?
What private property of yours has been confiscated and when did this occur?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
7:26 pm
And spare us the out of context talking points on firing people…..that really makes you look silly.
You are going to hear about that ALL summer. Closing factories and shipping jobs offshore do not play well in rustbelt states. Gotta push that and expand on it later….
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 27th, 2012
7:26 pm
where is [President Romney's] plan
—————–
Please tell me you’re not that ignorant.
Ever heard of the Google? You might try finding His official campaign web site.
Duh.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 27th, 2012
7:27 pm
Obozo told us what his plan was four years ago.
Fail.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
7:29 pm
It’s not exactly rocket science.
Well, LBB, why didn’t W and his people fix it all before he left office if it’s sooooooo easy to do and all…..the crash happened in September 2007. That gave W a whole year. Guess he didn’t have time? A lame duck but didn’t have time to do what you explain as being so easy?
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 27th, 2012
7:31 pm
why didn’t W and his people fix it all before he left office
——————
He did. TARP fixed the Dodd-Frank housing mess and ended up costing nothing, as all the money was repaid. Our President Bush bequeathed a recovery unto Obozo and the recession ended in June 2009.
Yawn.
md
June 27th, 2012
7:32 pm
“You are going to hear about that ALL summer.”
I don’t doubt that for a minute……..disinformation is the name of the game when folks are too lazy to look it up themselves. We have plenty on here who obviously never use their computers for anything other than blogging.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 27th, 2012
7:33 pm
Oh, and the Dodd-Frank “roll the dice” housing disaster could have been avoided altogether had Democrats not obstructed Our President Bush’s efforts to reform Fannie and Freddie.
Just another Democrat mess that had to be cleaned up by Our President Bush.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
7:33 pm
That’s truly delusional. Sad.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 27th, 2012
7:34 pm
Obozo should tout his own unemployment-reducing program.
Heh heh.
What a loser.
Serious Robuck
June 27th, 2012
7:42 pm
Finn, these guys will never accept reality. Bush and Cheney drove the economy over the cliff. These wingnuts criticize Obama for not patching everything up quickly, despite the fact that Republicans have filibustered everything he’s attempted to do. They want to give the steering wheel to Romney who will say anything to anybody on any issue, flash his perfect white veneers, and then go off and have another dead person baptized. God help us.
You got that right
June 27th, 2012
7:51 pm
Barry
Will you be able to or are you capable of discussing the current world economic situation and how the winner of the November election will be able to overcome that drag on the US economy?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
7:58 pm
disinformation is the name of the game
Yeah, md, Romney never fired a soul, never laid anyone off, and never shipped a single job overseas.
You are the epitome of misinformation.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
8:00 pm
“You are going to hear about that ALL summer. Closing factories and shipping jobs offshore do not play well in rustbelt states.”
And since these charges have ALL been proven false, Finn is admitting that the President of the United States will be lying to the American people all summer long.
A legacy of non-stop lies from the worst President in the history of this nation. What a record to be proud of, Barack!
Ol' Timer
June 27th, 2012
8:05 pm
No! No! No! All that talk is way too futuristic. Too modern. Too expensive. Too liberal. We need to move as quickly as possible back to the 19th century with ox carts, horses, carriages, buckboards, and a few steam locomotives. Geeez.
md
June 27th, 2012
8:08 pm
You revisionists on here are only fooling yourselves…….it is well documented that Bush started warning of problems with Fannie and Freddie as early as 2001…….yes, 2001, when it was outlined in his budget proposal……which are official documents and can be read by anybody with enough brain to go find them. Of course the dems are the ones that repeatedly stated that F&F were not in trouble and did not need reforming……..
Fast forward to today and amnesia has kicked in with the dems……….
md
June 27th, 2012
8:10 pm
“Yeah, md, Romney never fired a soul, never laid anyone off, and never shipped a single job overseas.”
Uh Finn……you may want to check your talking points, I think you are getting them confused…..Jefferson was referring to the out of context talking point about Romney “liking to fire people”……..come on man, bone up on your memos if you are going to play the game.
md
June 27th, 2012
8:12 pm
“You are the epitome of misinformation.”
I’ll gladly post a link to anything you have questions about…..but since you poo poo actual source material, I doubt it would do any good……but I’m willing to try to educate you……..
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
8:12 pm
“Finn, these guys will never accept reality. Bush and Cheney drove the economy over the cliff.”
Now who’s not accepting reality? This recession was created by many things, not the least of which was over 30 years of bad liberal policies regarding home loans, mismanagement at Fannie and Freddie, lousy financial regulations, and ever-increasing spending by BOTH parties.
“These wingnuts criticize Obama for not patching everything up quickly, despite the fact that Republicans have filibustered everything he’s attempted to do.”
Really? Was the Stimulus filibustered? No. Cash for Clunkers? No. In fact, Obama got EVERYTHING he wanted in the first 2 years of his Presidency, and it has failed miserably. But you keep blaming those all-powerful Republicans who stopped everything this President proposed, Roebuck.
Meanwhile, I suggest YOU try a bit of reality before you post such nonsense again.
You got that right
June 27th, 2012
8:15 pm
md
The whole housing and construction mess was a combination of greed and lack of foresight. That falls on all involved.
With that said, the bubble started to burst in 06. Can you tell me what exactly the Republican controlled Congress and Bush did from 01 to Jan 07 besides a few quotes from the Pres or other elected officials? I’m not blaming Bush, Repubs, Dems or any one person or entity, however since you made it political.
just sayn
You got that right
June 27th, 2012
8:17 pm
md
Countering with Barney Frank quotes from 03 or whenever is not going to work. He was still in the minority at that time. Just to get something on to the floor he would have needed Repub support in committee. Not absolving Frank or any Dem, however when they took Congress the bubble was imploding.
I personally see it as a perfect storm and many are paying for it now, while some of the big banks were bailed out. Not sure if that was the right thing or not, but Bush and Obama both did I believe
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
8:22 pm
You got that right, remember that it takes 60 votes in the Senate to move things forward. The only time that number was reached by any party was the Democrats in 2010.
The housing bubble was caused less by greed and more by bad government policies which encouraged people to buy homes they couldn’t afford, and banking regulations which enabled them to do so.
md
June 27th, 2012
8:24 pm
ygtr,
There is plenty of source material out there to research, but start here and do your own research:
http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2008/10/20081009-10.html
I started with each claim and have been sourcing other links in an effort to educate myself…..there is plenty out there.
Of course the one big bill that the dems killed was Senate bill S-190 in 2005…….which was an actual reform bill that never made it out of committee…….voted down strictly along party lines………
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
8:26 pm
I will tell you that there was NOTHING any Congress could do to stop the housing crash in the 2000’s. The policies had been in place too long, the bad loans were already in the system, and Glass-Steagall had already allowed financial institutions to mix loans with investments.
Reversing Glass-Steagall and requiring financial institutions to immediately clean up their investment portfolios might have helped, but I give that about a 20% chance of working at that time.
Michael H. Smith
June 27th, 2012
8:29 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
June 27th, 2012
6:08 pm
If you are talking MARTA, the expansion thereof and the 52% of TSPLOST it will receive should it pass the conversation just ended.
Serious Robuck
June 27th, 2012
8:33 pm
Tiberius, the nonsense is yours, good fellow. Have you managed to block Bush’s Presidency entirely when he managed to blow the surplus Clinton left him with an economy in ruin, 4,000 kids dead in Iraq for nothing whatsoever at the cost of billions (never budgeted, of course), Halliburton enriched with no bid contracts, New Orleans devastated and left to die. Do you not remember W here in Atlanta parading around with new homeowners touting and pushing the ownerhsip society that landed millions in foreclosure? You’re delusional, at best. I’ll bet you’ve been watching Fox.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 27th, 2012
8:35 pm
Libtards prefer shutting whole companies down to restructuring them, and yes, in some cases, sending low-value jobs to low-wage countries.
Democrats: Economic retards.
@@
June 27th, 2012
8:37 pm
Ah MAN!!!!
(Reuters) – Stockton, California, is expected to file for bankruptcy before the end of the week, becoming the largest U.S. city to seek protection from its creditors.
No one in the city of nearly 300,000 is relishing the prospect, though some see no choice.
Stockton, which boomed a decade ago with workers from the San Francisco Bay area seeking affordable housing, is the most recent casualty of the housing bust of the past few years.
After failing to strike a deal with city employee unions and other creditors, Stockton’s city council passed a budget after a five-hour meeting on Tuesday night. The budget calls for an end to retiree healthcare benefits a year after the city files for bankruptcy, which is expected by Friday afternoon.
Stockton busted spectacularly, and it still is swimming in foreclosures. It has been cutting city jobs for years. The cost of pensions and healthcare have overwhelmed it.
Michael H. Smith
June 27th, 2012
8:52 pm
“Reviving” not reversing Glass- Steagall will cause things to be separated once again and that will not necessarily “clean up” anything. A bad investment remains a bad investment no matter where you place it on paper or in what accounts.
People, particularly those on the left, highly over rate what Glass-Steagall does. Most of them don’t even know what Glass-Steagall was or when it come into being. It’s purpose of separating banking from other investment instruments may have limited risk exposure to some extent but in today’s global environment as inter-woven as it has become those once thought hard lines drawn in the concrete seem to have faded into a blur.
As you pointed out and I agree, bad loans a.k.a. liar loans, were the main problem and remain the problem. Along with over rated credit and bond values that were no where close to real market valuation,. Like triple A ratings that in reality were double A rate at best.
Serious Robuck
June 27th, 2012
8:55 pm
Lil Barry, I think you’ve mistaken Democrats for Romney. He’s the one who enjoys firing little people and ruining their lives by shutting down their companies. Convince me I’m wrong and I’ll admit it. Furthermore, we know that Romney’s grandparents fled the US for Mexico so they could practice polygamy there. How do we know where Romney was born? Shouldn’t we demand his papers? Who exactly is his mother?
fair and balanced
June 27th, 2012
8:57 pm
rednecks don’t ride trains- just oversized four wheelers
Michael H. Smith
June 27th, 2012
9:03 pm
By the way lbb, NAFTA was one of Free Trader Bill Clinton’s greatest achievements according to wife Hilary. NAFTA of course sent millions of American jobs south of the border and it never produce the predicted 10 billion dollar trade surplus for us. In fact it actually produce a 70 billion dollars trade surplus for Mexico.
I love it when these socialist lib democrats try to hang offshore outsourcing as monopoly around the necks of Republicans and conservatives.
iggy
June 27th, 2012
9:04 pm
“Romney likes to fire people, he like that he said.”
Well who doesnt enjoy canning some unproductive lump, that is consistenly tardy, absent and is a morale killer. A good ole fashioned firing gets all the other troops in order.
Negative reinforcement can work wonders.
Ray
June 27th, 2012
9:04 pm
I personally would not use the train to those destinations. But, DC, Charleston, Tampa, N.O., would be the most interesting, so long as I could travel with a bottle or two of wine.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
9:12 pm
Wow, if you can’t win, change the rules:
The Texas Republican Party has released its official platform for 2012, and the repeal of the landmark Voting Rights Act of 1965 is one of its central planks.
“We urge that the Voter Rights Act of 1965 codified and updated in 1973 be repealed and not reauthorized,” the platform reads.
Under a provision of the Voting Rights Act, certain jurisdictions must obtain permission from the federal government — called “preclearance” — before they change their voting rules. The rule was put in place in jurisdictions with a history of voter disenfranchisement.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/texasgop_pre/assets/original/2012-Platform-Final.pdf
md
June 27th, 2012
9:12 pm
“He’s the one who enjoys firing little people and ruining their lives by shutting down their companies. Convince me I’m wrong and I’ll admit it.”
Start with the employees of Staples and Sports Authority and then get back to us…….
And when researching what Bain did, don’t forget to ask oneself if it was better that 10-20% of a company got laid off or that 100% were laid off if help wasn’t there…….
Too many people only read the memo’s and never look into the reality of each individual situation……making oneself ignorant is inexcusable when one is sitting on a computer.
iggy
June 27th, 2012
9:13 pm
Yes, and the union contracts will become null and void!! Seems the Dems are their own Union Busters.
md
June 27th, 2012
9:17 pm
“Former GST Steel Vice President B.C. Huselton explains in the video that the company was in dire straits when Bain took over, and that the firm did its best to save them.
“There’s this vampire story that Bain comes in and shows its teeth and sucks the blood out of the operation,” Huselton reportedly says in the video. “It was really entirely the opposite of that. We went looking for a blood donor.””
Two sides to every story……but the memos usually only have one……
Michael H. Smith
June 27th, 2012
9:19 pm
When obumer took office unemployment was around 7% three and one-half years later unemployment is at what percentage?
Yeah, someone is making themselves ignorant alright.
Serious Robuck
June 27th, 2012
9:24 pm
md, you’re a valiant warrior for your cause, good man. Staples and the Sports Authority are the success stories. Why are there so many tragedies? Romney is a vulture who cares about no one except fellow Mormons.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward - Again)
June 27th, 2012
9:25 pm
Finn McCool (The System isn’t Broken; I’m Just Incompetent): Wow, if you can’t win, change the rules
——
Actually, what Texas is proposing is that the rules be the same for Texas as elsewhere.
Don’t let facts get in the way of your hatred for real Americans though.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward - Again)
June 27th, 2012
9:27 pm
md, you’re wasting your time with these losers. They hate profit, they hate capitalism, and it springs from their own inability to compete. They have their narrative–it’s being fed to them by Dear Leader, Obozo. As long as their EBT cards keep getting topped off, all is well.
Serious Robuck
June 27th, 2012
9:28 pm
md, why shouldn’t we be concerned about Romney’s papers? Do you argue that his grandparents, including several grandmothers, were there to do their thing? Who is his mother? He may have been born in Mexico. Do you know definitively that he wasn’t?
You got that right
June 27th, 2012
9:31 pm
md
I didn’t absolve or indict anyone, no need to be so defensive about Bush
A bill in 2005 was going to cancel out a bubble that started to burst in 06?
You really believe that in less than a yr mortgage issues would be resolved, derivative issues, govt bs, etc?
You really don’t believe that, do you?
Serious Robuck
June 27th, 2012
9:34 pm
Lil Barry, you don’t know anything about us evil liberals. I suspect my net worth is considerably more than yours, little fellow. The financial services industry has rewarded me nicely, Lil Barry. How about you? If you think I hate profit, you’re wrong. I revel in it. I thrive on it. I enjoy it even now. Do you, Lil Barry? I want prosperity for everybody, not just for white Auburn graduates.
You got that right
June 27th, 2012
9:37 pm
Barry
Calling someone a loser based on who they voted for, speaks volumes about one’s intellect and the depth of their cognitive thought processes.
I would hope you a better person than what you display on this blog.
politics is but one facet of any given individual’s thoughts and make up of that person.
Lot of great people out there, regardless of who they voted for or didn’t vote for in any given election. Mind you, I wish more people would vote but that doesn’t make them a “loser” because they didn’t vote or voted for the individual I didn’t vote for.
Show some class. Lead the way. Calling people “losers” isn’t what leaders do.
Are you a leader or follower? Your choice in life, no one can do that for you. Take off the blinders and free yourself. Not saying change your political views by any means, but see that there are great people all over
Joey
June 27th, 2012
9:41 pm
What you are forgetting is that trains make stops, plaines dont. Not every body on the train is going to go from Atlanta to Jacksonville. Some may go to Savannah to Jax, Atlanta to Macon, Savannah to Atlanta Airport, Macon to Brunswick, ect… 2 Trains on this route can accomplish the work of 25 planes. The same is true for the other routes.
People speculate about the demand talking about tourist, but the main component would be business travel. Atlanta is a major convention and commerce center and these trains would only boost that. Most major Hotels and convention centers are within WALKING distance of the gulch station site. The atlanta station will also have a direct connection to MARTA, making it possible to get to virtually every major business destination.
Also the route to Louisville would connect directly to the Chicago hub network, making possible a single train to chicago.
md
June 27th, 2012
9:44 pm
“Why are there so many tragedies?”
To the best of my knowledge, Bain has an 80% success rate……hardly more tragedies than successes. Dealing with ailing companies there is bound to be failures.
md
June 27th, 2012
9:45 pm
“A bill in 2005 was going to cancel out a bubble that started to burst in 06?
You really believe that in less than a yr mortgage issues would be resolved, derivative issues, govt bs, etc?”
No, I pointed out the 2005 bill to show the continued pattern of non action on the part of the dems…….Bush was sounding the alarm as early as 2001……his first year in office.
JDW
June 27th, 2012
9:49 pm
@Tiberuis…”And since these charges have ALL been proven false”
Only in your mind…they do have help for delusions folks maybe you should find some before you harm yourself.
md
June 27th, 2012
9:51 pm
“md, you’re wasting your time with these losers.”
All in good fun……..if I can enlighten just one I’ve done my part for the greater good of society
After all, I used to be a registered dem until my mentor taught me to continue to ask “why?” until I got to the end of the line vs stopping in the middle. I see that in a lot of folks on here…..they could answer their own questions of they took the time to dig just a little deeper.
But yes, some don’t want to look any deeper…….they like their ignorant bliss……
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
9:54 pm
“He’s the one who enjoys firing little people and ruining their lives by shutting down their companies. Convince me I’m wrong and I’ll admit it.”
Roebuck (I just can’t use the term Serious with you, as you are incapable of being so), you have the DNC talking points down pat, but like Obama, you’re lying through your teeth.
First of all, Romney said he likes to fire people who aren’t doing good work. Of course, seeing as you’re a liberal, doing good work isn’t really in your DNA, is it?
As for shutting down companies, Bain Capital under Romney’s leadership had a 70% success rate of keeping companies afloat or growing them – far higher than most venture capital companies success rates in the industry.
As to your contention that I ignored the Bush years, you may need to brush up on your reading comprehension just a little bit. You might also wish to stay on topic, which was that YOU claimed that Bush and Cheney caused the recession. Now, no one disputes the spending that BOTH parties were responsible for in the 2000’s (yes, Roebuck, BOTH parties). Neither side submitted ANY proposals to slow down or reduce spending, so I suggest you get off your high horse and remember that Democrats, even in the minority, can propose their own spending bills. That they went along merrily with the Republicans is FACT, Roebuck. If you do not think so, please produce one bill by any Democrat in Congress in the 2000’s that called for reduced spending. I won’t hold my breath waiting, son.
Oh, and once again, there was never any surplus during the Clinton years. That was a smoke and mirrors accounting trick by the GOP and the Clinton White House to make it look like we had one.
Finally, Haliburton, the Iraq war (which I disagreed with from day one, btw) and New Orleans had NOTHING to do with the economy failing.
Your responses, however, have EVERYTHING to do with YOU failing.
JDW
June 27th, 2012
9:55 pm
@Tiberuis…”Obama got EVERYTHING he wanted in the first 2 years of his Presidency, and it has failed miserably.”
I guess shifting monthly employment numbers by 750K to the positive or increased GDP growth from -6 to +2 is failing in your world. In the real world it is averting disaster …disaster caused by the same policies Romney espouses.
Your problem is the false view of the “Good Ole Days”…you can’t even fathom the problem Duhbya stuck us with and how far we have come…never fear though in four more years it will be back to more consistent growth. Big problems take time.
I notice the leads in FL, OH and PA are widening…baring huge swings its game over.
You got that right
June 27th, 2012
10:00 pm
md
Thanks for the exchange
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward - Again)
June 27th, 2012
10:02 pm
Serious Robuck: I want prosperity for everybody, not just for white Auburn graduates.
————-
LOL at your idea of what constitutes the elite!
You really don’t know very much.
Leave the bubble. Open your mind.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
10:02 pm
JDW, if you had any intellectual capacity whatsoever, you’d be able to discern the difference between “Bain Capital” and “Mitt Romney” in Obama’s ads.
The ads specify “Romney’s Bain Capital”, yet fails to mention that the steel company was going to go under 8 years earlier if Bain hadn’t invested in it, and that under Bain, they declared bankruptcy nearly 3 years AFTER Romney left Bain. Another ad specifying “Bain’s outsourcing” highlights a company whose jobs were outsourced 2 years after Romney left Bain. Another highlights a firm that declared bankruptcy over a year after Romney left Bain Capital.
So yeah, JDW, ALL those ads are lies from your wonderful Liar-in-Chief. And completely debunked with FACTS if you take the time to actually do your research them.
Not surprised you’d buy into them, though. You’re a typical idiot liberal who believes everything told to you without bothering to check the facts for yourself.
JDW
June 27th, 2012
10:02 pm
@Tiberuis…”Oh, and once again, there was never any surplus during the Clinton years. That was a smoke and mirrors accounting trick by the GOP and the Clinton White House to make it look like we had one.”
The CBO and US bank accounts seem to differ…why I am not suprised you can’t understand plain black and white numbers…
1998 surplus 0.8% of GDP
1999 surplus 1.4% of GDP
2000 surplus 2.4% of GDP
2001 surplus 1.3% of GDP (Clintons last budget year ending in July)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals
When you get help for the delusional problem ask for remedial math and reading as well.
You got that right
June 27th, 2012
10:05 pm
“Of course, seeing as you’re a liberal, doing good work isn’t really in your DNA, is it?”
Really? Tell me that was hyperbole.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
10:06 pm
JDW, even YOU should know that the CBO only produces figures based on the parameters that are given to them by the requester.
Wait! That would require that you know anything (which of, course, has been proven that you don’t).
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward - Again)
June 27th, 2012
10:06 pm
Sorry, JDW, but you’re ignoring the use of the SS surplus to mask the deficit. Our national debt went up every year of the Clinton regime.
Bottom line: There was no surplus.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
10:06 pm
“Really? Tell me that was hyperbole.”
Moderately so.
JDW
June 27th, 2012
10:08 pm
@Tiberuis…plain fact is you and people like you are the reason we are in this fix today. You are so focused on being selfish and so afraid that someone might get something for free you are willing to drive the economy and our society off the cliff.
Your attitude just like that of the Blue Dog Dem’s of the 50’s and 60’s is in it’s dying throes. It may take another 10 years yet but anyone that can look a the demographics of this country can see it. The Republicans will change or die either way the current attitude is dead. One day we will look back on this period as the last gasp of a bunch of shortsighted selfish people that should have known better.
md
June 27th, 2012
10:10 pm
“disaster caused by the same policies Romney espouses. ”
Since the disaster was caused by people that borrowed more than they knew they could afford, can you link us to where Romney is in favor of letting them do that again??
Henry Porter
June 27th, 2012
10:11 pm
Want to have a little fun? Read what happened in Vermont when a consultant suggested passenger rail was feasible: http://www.leg.state.vt.us/jfo/reports/Flyer%20Report%2002-2003.pdf
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
10:14 pm
“Tiberuis…plain fact is you and people like you are the reason we are in this fix today.”
I take it there will be no intelligent rebuttal to my debunking of Obama’s ads . . . .
JDW, please tell me how I, as someone who has VOLUNTARILY served my country and my community, and never taken a dime of government money except that which I earned in salary, have always paid my taxes and have never tried to take anyone’s life, liberty or property through the use of force or fraud, can possibly be considered a reason why we are in the pickle we are in.
This should be good for a belly laugh.
md
June 27th, 2012
10:14 pm
“You are so focused on being selfish and so afraid that someone might get something for free you are willing to drive the economy and our society off the cliff. ”
Since we choose everything we do, is it selfish for that 1/3 of folks to choose to drop out of the taxpayer funded education program??
JDW
June 27th, 2012
10:17 pm
@LBB…”Sorry, JDW, but you’re ignoring the use of the SS surplus to mask the deficit. Our national debt went up every year of the Clinton regime.”
I see you need remedial math too. Here are the acutal cash balances for every month…
http://www.fms.treas.gov/mts/index.html
You really need to learn that budgets (P&L’s) and debt (balance sheets) are telling different stories…but I guess you never figured out that accounting stuff…
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
10:18 pm
“You are so focused on being selfish and so afraid that someone might get something for free you are willing to drive the economy and our society off the cliff. ”
This is where your argument fails, JDW.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. In order for someone to give something to another, it must first be earned by the giver, and either freely given or taken by force or fraud by the recipient.
getalife
June 27th, 2012
10:22 pm
rush said willard is not ready for prime time.
Trouble in la la land.
I agree with rush.
Polls are looking great for our President.
Four more years!
md
June 27th, 2012
10:23 pm
JDW……surplus is just a word used in the accounting world……when a Nation has debt, surplus means next to nothing.
That would be like me saying I have money left in the bank account for the month but I still owe a couple of million dollars. Manipulating the cash flow is a gimmick…..we were and are still very much in the red.
JDW
June 27th, 2012
10:24 pm
@Tiberuis…”JDW, please tell me how I, as someone who has VOLUNTARILY served my country and my community, and never taken a dime of government money except that which I earned in salary, have always paid my taxes and have never tried to take anyone’s life, liberty or property through the use of force or fraud, can possibly be considered a reason why we are in the pickle we are in.”
Because you long for the past and don’t adequately invest in the future. You view the world as “what’s best for you” rather than understanding we exist as a symbiotic society. In the final analysis you and many like you make poor decisions and the cumulative effect of those decisions starting in the late 60’s to early 70’s have led to this country being poorly prepared for the future.
md
June 27th, 2012
10:27 pm
“You view the world as “what’s best for you” rather than understanding we exist as a symbiotic society.”
Utopia is a pipe dream……there are many many folks out for themselves on both ends of the spectrum. That’s why we have greedy old and young people and prisons full of all ages. It’s been that way forever and more than likely will remain that way.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
10:28 pm
“Because you long for the past and don’t adequately invest in the future. ”
I long for the past because I had more freedom in the past – nothing more. I am ALL about individual freedom, JDW.
And I have no problem with investing in the future, however, you need to tell me how creating a permanent moocher class dependent on government virtually their entire lives is “investing in the future”.
Because that is the only thing government is good for – creating dependency on government.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
10:30 pm
“ou view the world as “what’s best for you” rather than understanding we exist as a symbiotic society.”
I would suggest you review your science terms again, JDW.
We are much more a parasitic society than a symbiotic one.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 27th, 2012
10:50 pm
Looks as if JDW has surrendered for the evening.
I’m sure he’ll be willing to take more pounding tomorrow after the SCOTUS decision on Obamacare.
Hillbilly D
June 27th, 2012
10:53 pm
About the only thing I have to add to this discussion is that one can already ride the train between Atlanta and Gainesville, if they wish. It’s a 55 minute trip and costs $19, according to Amtrak.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
10:57 pm
last year Justice Scalia told California Lawyer that the 14thAmendment’s guarantee of equal protection didn’t apply to women. ”In 1868, when the 39th Congress was debating and ultimately proposing the 14th Amendment, I don’t think anybody would have thought that equal protection applied to sex discrimination, or certainly not to sexual orientation … The only issue is whether it prohibits [sex discrimination]. It doesn’t. Nobody ever thought that that’s what it meant. Nobody ever voted for that.” Corporations are people, but women aren’t protected by the 14th amendment, according to Scalia. Got it?
http://www.salon.com/2012/06/27/thanks_antonin_scalia/
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
10:59 pm
Looks as if JDW has surrendered for the evening.
LOL, you claim to have won the argument with an anonymous poster? Whatever props up your ego, dude.
md
June 27th, 2012
11:03 pm
Finn…to understand what Scalia meant one has to put their thinking cap on………then remember that women didn’t get the right to vote until 1920……..
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 27th, 2012
11:10 pm
So what will be the Con excuse tomorrow should the SC uphold ACA?
Conspiracy?
ld
June 27th, 2012
11:30 pm
If the SE is thinking of taking land for rail right-of-way, land will NOT get cheaper.
Maybe Georgia Tech’s engineers should think about a “transporter” — as in Star Trek, ” beam me up Scotty”.
Serious Robuck
June 28th, 2012
12:13 am
Tiberius, go to bed, old buddy. Merciful God!!! You are nuts.
Always Skeptical
June 28th, 2012
1:00 am
Wow Kyle….I expected to see more discussion regarding high-speed passenger rail service in Georgia…or rail service generally. This thread was completely hijacked and a complete waste of reading time. Too bad…It’s an interesting topic. It would be much appreciated if you would try to keep the animals in their cages next time by checking in now and then…Thanks
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward - Again)
June 28th, 2012
6:13 am
JDW: Here are the acutal cash balances for every month…
———
And you think I’M the one who doesn’t understand accounting?
The cash positions include money sent in to the SS trust fund, which is supposed to be saved to pay future benefits, not to cover up today’s spending.
The national debt went up every year of the Clinton regime, because he borrowed and spent the SS surplus instead of saving it.
You have failed.
@@
June 28th, 2012
8:02 am
This thread was completely hijacked and a complete waste of reading time.
From where I sit, it appears 90% of the comments were on topic.
Eric
June 28th, 2012
8:08 am
I agree shorter segments make sense than trying to connect every major city across the South.
But even if such a rail brings people into downtown Atlanta, then what? Take MARTA or a cab to some outer lying locale, I guess. So what will be the true time/cost of travel? Unless of course we follow Europe and build up in town living versus urban sprawl. So that would have to change to make rail more feasible, I would think.
JDW
June 28th, 2012
8:19 am
@Tiberius…”Looks as if JDW has surrendered for the evening”
I said my piece and you did a lovely job of validating my conclusions.
JDW
June 28th, 2012
8:23 am
@LBB…The cash positions include money sent in to the SS trust fund, which is supposed to be saved to pay future benefits, not to cover up today’s spending.”
Problem is that is not the way its done. If you want to lobby for a change in the accounting rules go right ahead. Under the rules in place there was a budget surplus from 1998 to 2001. It is a black and white thing and for you to dispute it shows your ignorance.
bluecoat
June 28th, 2012
8:26 am
Fast speed trains or ss trust fund.These post leave the topic.Where is the topic cop.Like the rest of these pugs resting on his …?
atlmom
June 28th, 2012
8:31 am
saying that ‘mass transit’ is ‘always in the red’ is really deceptive.
Do highways or roads make money?
In any event – why is NO ONE talking about rail to ORLANDO!?!?!! So many people drive there and depending on what you’re doing there – you don’t need a car!!!! It’s so close, it’s a crying shame that the only rail option to there is through DC. Yes, that is in Amtrak’s infinite wisdom…
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 28th, 2012
8:31 am
“you did a lovely job of validating my conclusions.”
And yet, JDW, you have no intelligent comeback – once again.
atlmom
June 28th, 2012
8:33 am
and really, does *anyone* fly to birmingham? really? it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 28th, 2012
8:34 am
bluecoat, a logical conclusion is that after a few pages, the topic is considered covered enough that there is no need to bring it back on course.
But then, if the thread-jackers like Finn and JDW would cease their never-ending drive-by (and factually incorrect) attacks on Romney, the rest of us wouldn’t have to spend so much time correcting them ad nausem.
A Realist
June 28th, 2012
8:46 am
Kyle,
You still get your column published ‘as is’ after several folks pointed out how the price information you based your analysis upon was seriously flawed.
How FOX of you!
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 28th, 2012
8:49 am
The Obama administration signalled Tuesday that it was readying to grant new Arctic drilling rights to Shell, while putting other areas up for lease.
The Secretary of the Interior, Ken Salazar, said in a conference with reporters that the drilling rights to Alaska’s north coast would likely be granted to Royal Dutch Shell later in the week.
salon.com
bluecoat
June 28th, 2012
8:50 am
I would think he Romney is not to the point to describe as ad nausem just near.The Atl. Orlando train sounds good.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 28th, 2012
8:50 am
The only train I ant is the one that get’s me out of this state several times a year. Amtrak goes to New orleans to the south and many points north.
That’s enough.
A Realist
June 28th, 2012
8:53 am
I’ll agree the thread was hijacked – the best way to deal with it is just to ignore the comments. (it makes going through the thread faster!)
Actually, there were some interesting points being brought up about high speed rail transit… when you threw out the political BS. There was good stuff about station locations, travel speed, convenience, comfort, etc. And this was from both sides of the discussion.
sirwinston
June 28th, 2012
8:59 am
Here we have “Dumb and Dumber” making sense of this whole thing. GDOT don’t understand what “Mass Transportation” is. They don’t even know what it does. A contract has very small printing, it done that way on purpose so you will not take the time to read the read truth about what you are doing or what you really need to know before you sign on the bottom line. Same with all of this future mass-transportation and “fast rail lines.” Another way to get tax payers money….bottom line and we forget that GA 400 Toll Road is paid for but GDOT refuse to give it back freely to the tax payers who paid for it. They want more of your money…….and, like always it is given to them again and again. Something has to give here. I am not stupid in knowing that nothing will be solved because here major counties who have looked closely at the pros and cons about this “transpotation” mess that we continue to find themselves either losin out, paying more or not reaping any benefits; they are Cobb, Gwinnett, but Fulton and Dekalb counties want’s all ofthe profits because they want to be the Judge, prosecutor, and the jury in this whole mess. Once the voter elect T-Splost, the taxes never ends and then here comes somthing else in its place in a few more months for something else about transportation. Unified decisions has to make sense and comes from those who have honest tackled the problem. Nothing that I have seen in the last 9 years have been created to make transportation better. It has all been about money, money and more money to widen, improve or create different ways to get to downtown, ATL. That is all I have seen, lately! High Speed Rail………do you really think that people will pay high price for that service when a plane can have them there quicker; and do you think counties are going to let it in without reaping most of the profits when it reach their counties, cities. We are behind in transportation arena when we have some of the greatest engineers in the world; but it appear’s that they can’t engineer city to cities transportation like they do everything else. When you let money get in the way of progress……….it spoil every reasonable process. I stand with Dumb and Dumber on this issues and no hard feelings to our officials.
iggy
June 28th, 2012
9:03 am
“saying that ‘mass transit’ is ‘always in the red’ is really deceptive.
Do highways or roads make money?”
In time and fuel savings, over time, they pay for themselves. A road cant make money but it does save money so in essence the do make money.
Does Marta make money? NO.
Does Amtrak make money? NO.
Will these other silly passenger choo choo trains make money? NO.
A Realist
June 28th, 2012
9:27 am
Sorry iggy,
Fuel is not the only cost for automobiles.
You have to include (and this is the short list) auto maintenance, auto insurance, local hospital emergency room expense, ambulance and fire services, road cleaning, road repair, garage cost for automobile, purchase price for automobile, time wasted sitting in traffic, pollution cleanup, loss of property tax revenue for public roads, car taxes, legal expenses (for all those accidents!), parking expense…etc, etc, etc.
The only advantage automobiles have is that roads already go places. Rail doesn’t. So comparing them is rather difficult. MARTA can’t really make money since it’s scope is limited (but it probably couldn’t even if it wasn’t). But roads don’t pay for themselves either!
Comparison with AMTRAK is a joke, since it is seriously limited in scope (and rail lines apparently hate the passenger trains due to their safety requirements.)
I’ll agree with Kyle that the population density might have trouble supporting some of the high speed rail. Of course, the interstate system was also built when the population wouldn’t support it either. I guess using Kyle’s logic, we have to wait until things are really bad before we do something. Pro-activity is not a conservative ideal.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 28th, 2012
9:31 am
transportation infrastructure isn’t supposed to “make money”. It’s supposed to support commerce and the workings of society. If that one piece of the puzzle collapses then it will have many ramifications – financial is just one of them.
The question to ask is: does this support current needs and future needs? Will this make our lives better?
Not “will it make money”. LOL
A Realist
June 28th, 2012
9:35 am
Finn, you hit it right on the head!
Transportation promotes commerce…
Practically every city on the map was there because of transportation and commerce. Remove the transportation piece, and the commerce goes somewhere else. (see: ghost towns in the West after the railroads moved.)
iggy
June 28th, 2012
9:48 am
Sorry zealist…in essence roads to make money via saved time, mileage etc.
NEXT!!
Kyle Wingfield
June 28th, 2012
9:57 am
A Realist @ 8:46: Making some complaints is not the same thing as proving my analysis was “seriously flawed.”
In any case, I did examine the complaints made about how I calculated airfares and the cost of driving. Because we can’t know what the median price charged for a train ticket would be — the midpoint of an estimated range of prices is not the same thing — I looked at airfares for each city pairing one month out as well as two months out, and compared each to the entire GDOT range. Birmingham is still cheaper by rail. The Jacksonville airfare didn’t change, and is still as likely as not to be cost-competitive or cheaper compared to rail. Louisville’s two-month fare is below the entire GDOT range, and its one-month fare is right in the middle. So, given how hypothetical the comparison figures are, I’m still very comfortable with my conclusions.
I also looked at the $0.50/mile cost for driving. Rail still doesn’t come close to competing on cost with driving, even for one passenger.
Kyle Wingfield
June 28th, 2012
9:59 am
Programming note: I’ll have a short blog post out as soon as we get the health-care ruling, and will update it as I have time to read the opinions.
A Realist
June 28th, 2012
10:10 am
Kyle,
And since *everyone* plans out two months in advance, you are partially right.
I’m glad you don’t do financial analysis for a living!
Hillbilly D
June 28th, 2012
10:15 am
It’s hard to figure automobile costs, for a specific trip. You have to sort of look at it as fixed, semi-fixed, and variable expenses.
Let’s say you are going to Birmingham and back. Your gas costs you can figure pretty accurately. Maintenance costs are a little more tricky. Oil and tire wear you can sort of calculate but for repair costs, that repair was probably going to be necessary, sooner or later, whether you went to Birmingham or not. The same with insurance costs. You still have to pay your insurance, whether you took the trip or the car sat home in the driveway.
So it’s a bit of an apples to oranges comparison to compare a car trip, to taking a train or an airplane. My own view is that for a trip as short as Birmingham, given the fact that you need a way to get around once you get over there and all the hassle of going through the stuff at the airport or train station, I’d just drive. A longer trip, might be different, depending of course on time constraints.
Personally, I prefer to drive because I like to see the country and there’s an awful lot out there to see.
Your mileage may vary.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 28th, 2012
10:22 am
no, iggy, in essence they don’t make money. they provide the means to make money. They are an expense.
I assume you own a computer? If you make money on, say, ebay, it’s not your computer that makes money, it provides the insfrastructure for you to make money.
JDW
June 28th, 2012
10:27 am
@Tiberius et al…as I said last night progress is coming and you are along for the ride…like it or not. Seems the Chief Justice has decided to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 28th, 2012
10:29 am
The bad news is that the individual mandate is upheld.
The good news is that it is upheld as a TAX.
So now Republicans can claim that Obama raised EVERYONE’S taxes.
This campaign just got very interesting, and the SCOTUS (via Chief Justice Roberts in a stunningly illogical argument) just handed Romney a huge campaign talking point.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 28th, 2012
10:31 am
Yep, JDW, Roberts has just shown a majority of Americans that the solution is to get rid of a President who raises taxes on EVERYONE.
Oops!
Love me some Reagan
June 28th, 2012
10:32 am
Unconstitutional my A$$
Love me some Reagan
June 28th, 2012
10:33 am
Just like Bill Oreilly you guys on the right, let the SPIN stop hear
Fox will be a great channel to watch today
Love me some Reagan
June 28th, 2012
10:36 am
Where is the celebration? I know many of you were waiting to spike the ball this morning
why the long face?
Win some, lose some
Now lets hope Obama and the Repub Congress work to tweak this CONSTITUTIONAL up held LAW, but far far far from perfect legislation
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 28th, 2012
10:38 am
Now, let’s look at the “be careful what you wish for” scenario.
1. How is this new “tax” going to be collected? In your paycheck? What are the ramifications of seeing a healthcare tax taking money out of your wallet each week / month?
2. What is this tax going to fund? Private insurance? Don’t think so. So the alternative is Medicare. What’s the problem with Medicare? Doctors aren’t accepting new patients because they don’t get paid for the procedures they do, and they don’t get paid quick enough. SO now you’re paying a tax for something you cannot use. How’s THAT going to go over with voters? I’m guessing not so well.
This is a huge loss for the American people, but a huge win for the campaign of Mitt Romney – if he thinks it through to it’s inevitable course.
Kyle Wingfield
June 28th, 2012
10:39 am
Folks, there’s a new thread upstairs for the Obamacare ruling.
Love me some Reagan
June 28th, 2012
10:40 am
Tiberius
Keep spinning. Yes it will be used as a campaign issue, but a win? When the polls across the board show that, post it
Love me some Reagan
June 28th, 2012
10:41 am
Not the polls about what people think in terms of Obamacare, but the polls that show Romney breaking away in both the electoral college and overall popular vote