On T-SPLOST, vote your interests — not what you think others’ are
In recent weeks, a few friends have asked me for advice: How should they vote in July’s T-SPLOST referendum?
I asked them where they do most of their driving. Then I rattled off the nearby projects I could remember — and advised them to check the official map in case I had forgotten others. But one guy replied that he wanted to know what’s best for the region, not just himself.
What’s best for the region, I told him, is for everyone to decide what’s best for themselves, and vote accordingly.
Advocates of the 10-year, $7.2 billion sales tax say many of our transportation problems are regional in nature. One of their favorite illustrations is that the project most desired by elected officials in Douglas County was the interchange of I-285 and I-20 west, which sits in Fulton.
They’re right about the regional nature of many of our problems. And it might well be true that the best way to improve commutes for the people of Douglas County is to spend money on projects elsewhere.
But I’ve come to the conclusion that voting for T-SPLOST based on what I think are the interests of people in Douglas, or Cherokee, or Gwinnett, or anywhere else I don’t travel often, is foolish.
If the list includes projects that will ease bottlenecks and free up travelers from Cherokee to their jobs elsewhere in the region, then by all means those people should vote for it. The same goes for everyone else in every other county.
But if it doesn’t help them, why would I expect them to vote for it anyway with the expectation it could improve my commute — even if they don’t know much about the routes I drive and the traffic I face?
While $7.2 billion represents but a down payment toward the tens of billions in new infrastructure local transportation experts say metro Atlanta needs, it is still a large chunk of money. Not everyone in our 10-county region should expect to see all their problems disappear — not by a long shot. But if the list is as good for the whole region as advertised, a majority of voters ought to believe they’ll see enough progress to make it worthwhile.
The reverse is also true. If a majority of voters look at the list and shake their heads, it’s hard to argue the plan is really the best we could do.
It’s not as if the list reflects an obvious effort by local leaders to take a few important, congested corridors and fix them above all else. That approach might have justified spending a disproportionate amount of money in some places. Instead, the project list looks much more like a grab bag in which this county got its top 10 projects, that county got 12 it wanted, and so on.
Again: If that was the right method, it ought to show up in the vote totals.
Some people thinking regionally fret about the message a rejection of T-SPLOST would send to businesses thinking of moving or expanding here. I’d be much more worried about that message if most tax opponents were questioning the need to do anything in the first place.
Instead, the disagreements are largely about what to do and how to pay for it. Those can be resolved if the tax is axed.
Incidentally, this is one of the main ways government spending has grown so large, with so many complaints about how little we get for it. It does no good to vote more spending on education or anti-poverty programs, without recognizing education results have declined and poverty levels stayed flat.
It makes no more sense to vote for a tax that won’t ease the congestion you know, in the hopes it might help the congestion you don’t.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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244 comments Add your comment
Corey
June 24th, 2012
8:52 pm
A Realist
June 24th, 2012
4:13 pm
I echo your sentiments, Realist. As I read some of these comments I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
Corey
June 24th, 2012
9:00 pm
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin…
June 24th, 2012
6:47 pm
Dude, I guess you would prefer that Mr. Obama would have called him and wished him well in hell? You do realize that Egypt has a peace treaty with our strongest ally in that region of the world, Isreal? I’m sure the newly elected leader of Egypt who was educated in the U.S. understands the consequences of violating that treaty which would be suicidal.
Hillbilly D
June 24th, 2012
9:04 pm
I don’t live in the Atlanta region but I don’t have a problem with state money going to Grady. In my neck of the woods, depending on where trouble befalls you, you’re either life-flighted to Grady of Erlanger in Chattanooga. That’s all the hope you have.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 24th, 2012
9:25 pm
Radio GaGa: Typical conservative thinking: What is best for me me me. It’s all about me. Who cares about the good of all, the region, the country.
———–
50% of folks pay zilch in income tax. How much are they contributing to “the good of all”? You’ve got a lot of nerve blaming the folks who are paying the bills.
@@
June 24th, 2012
9:26 pm
Hillbilly:
I’m with you on Grady. Excellent trauma unit.
Knew an old gentlemen who’d suffered a traumatic head injury (a tree fell on him). He survived until they moved him to another floor. He died due to a fall. It was so sad.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 24th, 2012
9:44 pm
Corey- I guess if you do not understand welcoming the Muslim Brotherhood to power there is no hope for you.
Or obozo.
How Inciteful Is That!
June 24th, 2012
10:05 pm
If we just eliminate all personal exemptions and deductions, then there would no longer be people getting away with paying no federal income tax. I’m glad to see that Lil Barry is recommending such an approach.
@@
June 24th, 2012
10:09 pm
Examiner Editorial: Green laws may derail California’s high-speed rail
And in order to guarantee the project goes forward despite public skepticism, Brown proposed to exempt the project from environmental injunctions. Without this exemption, it will probably be impossible to start construction by the Dec. 31, 2012, deadline stipulated by the federal stimulus law. Obama’s Transportation Department reaffirmed this time limit last year when it admitted it had “no administrative authority to change this deadline.”
But the environmentalists’ pressure finally got to Brown. The Los Angeles Times reported last week that he is backing down on the exemption. This all but guarantees that the project is dead. Federal courts routinely issue injunctions to stop projects before they ever begin, and the city of Chowchilla has already filed a lawsuit charging that the California High-Speed Rail Authority failed to conduct a proper Environmental Impact Statement pursuant to the California Environmental Quality Act and the National Environmental Protection Act. Studies show that the average time to complete the NEPA process is 6.1 years
‘Ya gotta love the irony.
Ferd Berfel
June 24th, 2012
10:27 pm
Given their track record, why would anyone voluntarily give more money to those idiots!
JDW
June 24th, 2012
10:59 pm
@Reporter…”Rumor has it the congratulations was accompanied by a hearty allah akbar.”
So I guess that you have appointed yourself arbitrator of Democracy…if you don’t like the way the votes go you just get to change them.
JDW
June 24th, 2012
11:03 pm
@LBB…”JDW don’t pay any income taxes”
My income taxes most likely run more than you make. Unlike you I understand the need to invest to keep the gravy train running.
JDW
June 24th, 2012
11:05 pm
@Michael H. Smith…wipe the side of your mouth…there is a bit of foam trickling down on the right.
aloysius
June 24th, 2012
11:33 pm
When oh when is anyone in Atlanta going to move forward with any MASS transit expansions out to the real suburbs where the overwhelming majority of economic movers and shakers actually live? Buses dont cut it. Just more gas guzzlers with bigger wheel bases. Take over MARTA and run that dang train all the way to Dahlonega right up 400. This isn’t new; people have been sayin’ it for decades now!
Jaquanta
June 24th, 2012
11:35 pm
Ever seen a white MARTA employee? Ever?
@@
June 24th, 2012
11:36 pm
JDW
June 24th, 2012
10:59 pm
SNIPE
JDW
June 24th, 2012
11:03 pm
SNIPE
JDW
June 24th, 2012
11:05 pm
SNIPE
schnirt
Dusty
June 24th, 2012
11:46 pm
Since this country, every state, every county and most cities and town have a severe shortage of money and a surplus of debt, we need to get down to the nitty gritty. Every project demanding thousands or millions should be checked as to whether it is essential or not. I mean really ESSENTIAL.
Parks, bikeways, shrubbery, swimming pools, large athletic fields,trolly cars …..NO!
Highway and Bridge REPAIR & maintenance….YES
MARTA repair & maintenace …..YES
GRADY Hospital……..YES…but no new additions
NEW highways, bridges, Marta lines, beltlines……..NO
NEW courthouses, jails, state parks, visitor centers……….NO
New museums, memorials, monuments, university enlargements …….NO
T-SPLOST has gone SPLAT. Let us vote on separate items with the cost included with each one. Not a huge pig-in-a-poke like T-SPLOST. Citizens know how to be thrifty if it effacts their pocketbooks. So let us know exactly the extent of each project and the cost and the big question:CAN WE AFFORD IT or Can we pay for it?
If you want a museum, let CocaCola build it. If you want a recreation park, let Six Flags build it. If you want a new stadium, let the team owners pay for it. Just keep your hands off my money until I know your plans exactly. When we can meet a budget, we will talk again.
Hillbilly D
June 24th, 2012
11:46 pm
Take over MARTA and run that dang train all the way to Dahlonega right up 400.
What if the people there don’t want it?
native
June 24th, 2012
11:48 pm
@ i report
The islamist wasn’t my choice either, but he seems to be the choice of the Egyptians and also the least poor choice. At least the Muburrak tainted friend of the generals was denied at least for now.
Aloysius
June 25th, 2012
1:31 am
Believe me. They want it. Why wouldn’t anyone want it? It’s as essential as Grady or St. Joseph’s; you HAVE to have a way for folks to move around that is a) good for the environment b) an inexpensive way for folks to get to anywhere on the line to spend their money c) attract new business(the days of the huge parking lot are numbered) d) Is economical if for no other reason than it allows the 3 prior points to be facts. e) Lower stress for everyone who uses the system because they don’t have to drive or deal with morons who really don’t want it because a) they have the conceptualization skills of a brick b) they just plain hate we have a black president(who will win again); have folks who support gay marriage c) basically, given their “right out there” type demeanor don’t give a rodent’s behind about anyone but themselves at the end of the day.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
June 25th, 2012
2:28 am
Aloysius
June 25th, 2012
1:31 am
People in Dahlonega don’t want or need MARTA and for good reason as it would be highly-impractical to run a MARTA heavy rail line or any kind of rail line much farther north than it already runs to North Springs Station, much less all the way up 400 to Dahlonega which, in addition to being highly-impractical and cost-prohibitive, would also be politically-impossible.
There is no question that their needs to be expanded transportation options along the Georgia 400 North Corridor, but a solution that might be a tad bit more practical, both financially and politically, though not as sexy, would be to run expanded targeted express bus service up the Georgia 400 North Corridor up to Dahlonega.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 25th, 2012
7:30 am
JDW: My income taxes most likely run more than you make. Unlike you I understand the need to invest to keep the gravy train running.
———
I’m sure we’re all very impressed.
Did you send it in yet? Your investment check, I mean? And how long do you expect it will take to recoup your “investment”?
Get real. What you want is for others to find your libtarded wet dream of subsidized transit for the moocher class.
JDW
June 25th, 2012
7:31 am
@@@…you got a point or just like to state the obvious?
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 25th, 2012
7:31 am
“fund”, not “find”.
JDW
June 25th, 2012
7:35 am
@LBB…”What you want is for others to find your libtarded wet dream of subsidized transit for the moocher class”
Actually what I want is for short sighted, self centered, selfish, petty individuals such as yourself to wake up and smell the coffee. You are not the only person on the planet and the world does not revolve around you.
iggy
June 25th, 2012
8:00 am
If the big dollars for “entitlements”, Marta, downtown atlanta trolley projects and other uselessness werent included I may be more inclined to vote Yes. However and at this time I must vote Against this transportation junkit.
@@
June 25th, 2012
8:16 am
@@@…you got a point or just like to state the obvious?
Other than the one atop yo’ head?
Nope!
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 25th, 2012
8:59 am
JDW: You are not the only person on the planet and the world does not revolve around you.
———
No, but I am one of the 50% who pays the bills for the folks Democrats think the world revolves around–the moochers/Obozo voters who contribute nothing but crime, sloth, and new mouths to feed.
I will have my say in July and November, as will other decent Americans (and some Democrats).
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 25th, 2012
9:06 am
In addition to having our say come election time, I suspect Americans (and some Democrats) will have our WAY, much to the disappointment of libtards, moochers, and other big government Obozobots.
real john
June 25th, 2012
9:09 am
Ummmm…most of you libs do understand that a REPUBLICAN governor and many in the State Republican House are the one pushing the T-SPLOSTS tax don’t you??
I guess since its an article Kyle wrote, most of the usual libs,,,Road Scholar, Deb in Athens, getalife, etc…just automatically disagree with it. I don’t even think most of them even read the article.
I don’t even think most of you even understand Kyle’s article. Basically he is saying that why would someone in Douglas county vote for a tax that may or may not even help him/her. He is right. Why should someone who lives in-town get to dictate that someone else should pay for a tax that benefits them??
I’m still undecided, but I’m probably going to vote for the tax. However, GA and the Fed. Government better start figuring out how to live within their means…all of these extra little sales taxes, user taxes, title fees, ad volrem, etc… are really starting to add up.
I mean everyone wants to talk about how jobs and people won’t move to Atlanta or GA if we don’t pass this tax…Well, if we don’t watch out, GA isn’t going to be the “low cost” place to live anyone. When you add our pretty high state income tax, crazy water bills in Atlanta, T-Splosts for education and transit, pretty high sales taxes, and now Dekalb is raising property taxes again…All of a sudden, GA isn’t looking that “low costs” to live in
Kyle Wingfield
June 25th, 2012
9:22 am
real john @ 9:09: Your third paragraph has it half right. The other half, which hardly anyone seemed to grasp in their rush to declare my position all about “me me me!”, is that this is the best way — maybe the only way — for us to know if the list is any good or not.
Perhaps I should have put it this way: Any given person in metro Atlanta has limited knowledge about traffic conditions outside the routes he commonly drives. He might have a bit of experience with a few others, but the idea that he can objectively judge whether the plan as a whole is “good for the region” is baloney. He knows what he knows, and no more. This is true no matter where he lives.
So, he should vote according to the judgment he can make about the plan — i.e., what it would mean for the places he drives. Not because he, or I, or the conservative movement writ large, is selfish. But because trying to judge the plan based on what it would do in places with which he is unfamiliar is a fool’s errand. The people in those places, who know the local traffic conditions better, will make those judgments. Then, and only then, we will know whether the plan was good or needs reworking.
JDW
June 25th, 2012
9:39 am
@LBB…”No, but I am one of the 50% who pays the bills for the folks Democrats ”
HORSE HOOEY…you are claiming income tax pays all the bills? Income tax accounts for about 41% of US tax revenue…those folks you like to call “moochers” are paying payroll taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, car taxes and a host of others every day. You, should you actually pay income taxes, are one of the fortunate that is making a living off the benefits of this country and should be happy to pay your fair share to see those benefits continue.
JDW
June 25th, 2012
9:43 am
@real john…”most of you libs do understand that a REPUBLICAN governor and many in the State Republican House are the one pushing the T-SPLOSTS tax don’t you??”
Yep the REPUBLICAN governor and legislature have abdicated their responsibilities to create and fund a proper transportation plan. Now we have a choice between this and nothing.
Since it is inconceivable that the REPUBLICAN governor and legislature will ACTUALLY DO THIER JOB any time in the near future this is our only choice to address one of the issues that has choked the growth of the region on their watch.
JDW
June 25th, 2012
9:48 am
@Kyle…”The other half, which hardly anyone seemed to grasp in their rush to declare my position all about “me me me!”, is that this is the best way — maybe the only way — for us to know if the list is any good or not.”
I didn’t have any problem grasping it, I simply think that the me, me, me approach is a bad way to make a decision that affects not only the region but the state. You don’t have to understand every nuance of every project to grasp the fact that our transportation infrastructure is crumbling and affecting the economic health of the entire region.
Given as I stated earlier, that the Republican leadership of the state has given no alternatives a no vote simply ensures that we will continue to fall behind.
jj
June 25th, 2012
9:48 am
By their own admission there is over $1bb being pissed out the window on “local projects” at the discretion of each county. Now add the bike lanes, sidewalks and green initiatives and you have tossed another billion or two out the window.
100% to real mass transit and you have my vote
Up 75 to Town Center
Up 400 to Windward
Out 20 to Conyers
North on 85 to 316
South on 85 to Peachtree City
South on 75 to Griffin
West on 20 to Douglasville.
You lay this plan out and I bet it would pass. The current plan as proposed is doomed, to much pork.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 25th, 2012
10:35 am
JDW@9:48
This is what separates us, you admit that you are not qualified to decide if projects in areas you are not familiar with, will help, so you trust these “professionals” to decide for you. These same “professionals”, who designed this fiasco of a transportation system. You take the approach that Libs always take, just give them some more money, something will get better.
Conservatives are much more cynical and pragmatic, show us some evidence that this work and the money is well spent. So far, it looks like a big government boondoggle and payday for the road construction firms.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 25th, 2012
10:49 am
JDW
You don’t have to understand every nuance of every project to grasp the fact that our transportation infrastructure is crumbling and affecting the economic health of the entire region.
So, typical liberal response, you don’t have to understand, you don’t have to be sure it will work, you personally don’t have to benefit, but we have to do something. Trust government and give them some money so they can work.
Conservatives should disregard the facts, that many times we have done this and they did not keep their word, spent the money to benefit their friends, and did not fix the problem, and assume this time it will work. We should also disregard our financial condition and assume we can continue to pay the ever increasing taxes, we impose on ourselves.
A Yes Vote!!!!
June 25th, 2012
11:10 am
The trolley and the beltline will go on without the T-SPLOST for those of you who didn’t know that. There will be more money but those projects are already underway. Educate yourself and not listen to political bs
Retired
June 25th, 2012
11:57 am
Those pushing for T-SPLOST / TIA have nothing but a project name to show us. No maps no descriptions of what the project will do and where it will do it.
Is that good enough for us to vote for more taxes?
Vote NO!
bu2
June 25th, 2012
12:10 pm
The beltline still won’t get built until they find the money. Just because they think they will get it out of the taxing districts doesn’t guarantee it happens and it certainly doesn’t guarantee this model happens. Major new real estate development isn’t going to happen soon in Atlanta whether the tax passes or not and that is a critical part of their financing. They may actually figure out that the parks and trails are the important part of the beltline plan, not a mutli-billion dollar toy train.
And the streetcar will only last as long as Atlanta is willing to subsidize it. MARTA can’t.
Hillbilly D
June 25th, 2012
1:02 pm
Believe me. They want it.
You must not know many folks there.
Radio GaGa
June 25th, 2012
7:22 pm
Earth to Very Little Larry:
This has nothing to do with income taxes. We’re talking about a proposed sales tax, which is paid by everyone who buys anything. It’s really pretty easy for adults to understand.
Connie
June 25th, 2012
8:18 pm
NO! NO! NO! Do not vote for anything to give MARTA a penny. MARTA’s Board of Directors need an ‘Extreme Makeover’. MARTA is a large factor in the traffic congestion equation.MARTA fairs have doubled and tripled for riders transferring from bus to train or bus. Did MARTA annouce the discontinuation of continuous travel? A daily commute can cost as much as $16.50,compared to $5.00.The magic ‘BREEZE CARD’ is a joke. Tag on .50 to purchase a ‘card’ or better still through elderly riders off the bus because they have cash but don’t have a card. Residents of Fulton and DeKalb counties have paid MARTA taxes for years and not have access to the services. MARTA continues to reduce services and raise fares. As, for the ‘planned’ improvements, remember I-85 HOT LANE, “If you could drive in the HOV lane alone, would you be willing to pay for it?”. There’s nothing in the plan for my lanes of travel or my community. Morning commute – MARTA 1 hour 55 minutes, cost $5.50/by car 1 hour 15 minutes cost $5.00. Evening commute – MARTA 3 hours 10 minutes/car 1 hour 30 minutes.
Randy Ward
June 26th, 2012
9:49 am
As I have read the strategy and plans around T-SPLOST along with the improvements to the area that are expected it appears to be a really good approach to address many issues, both short term and long term. So the two questions I posed to myself based on available information are:
1) Is it a good idea and do you anticipate a positive impact on the area? My answer: Yes
2) Will you vote yes for T-SPLOST? My answer: NOT A CHANCE
This proposal is really Déjà vu for me harkening back to the discussions on the extension of GA 400. The proposals were vetted extensively with very mixed feedback on public support with the addition of a toll to finance the project. I extended my support only when assurances were made, laws were revised, and systems enacted that would require the dissolution of the toll when all the bonds were paid in full as well as assuring funds would only be used for bond payments. It made very good sense to me that the individuals using the road would pay for the construction over time. So with the actions and promises of the politicians and community leaders my vote was cast along with a very high percentage of the populace to support the project. After paying thousands of my hard earned dollars in non-deductable tax/tolls over the years I find out GA 400 toll money would be diverted to pay for the purchase and development of Atlantic Station. The laughable reasoning was individuals using GA 400 would be traveling to Atlantic Station; therefore these people should fund the project. From there the politicians struck the blow that will resonate in me for the rest of my life. After the GA 400 bonds were retired the local politicians decided that revenue stream was far too lucrative to let go. Next the assurances, promises, and laws were thrown out in order to keep that revenue stream alive to provide money to use at the whim of our leaders. MY MONEY! I know the ten year transportation plan is a good idea. I know the greater Atlanta area will benefit from the improvements. I know the special tax will only be collected for ten years then forever suspended. I know all this but it is MY VOTE. Fool me once…..
JDW
June 26th, 2012
9:58 am
@ragnar…”So, typical liberal response, you don’t have to understand, you don’t have to be sure it will work, you personally don’t have to benefit, but we have to do something. Trust government and give them some money so they can work.”
Rather than running around like Chicken Little screaming they are stealing our taxes, they are wasting our taxes, don’t give them any money some folks can make a reasoned judgment that improving our transportation infrastructure is a good thing. Why check out the first thing on the Chamber of Commerce’s growth plan.
http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/business-boosters-admit-atlanta-1464386.html
The other point that you miss entirely is there is no one else to act. Private enterprise cannot improve transportation it must be government. If you don’t like the job they are doing vote them out (God please vote this bunch out).
On the other hand, acting like an ostrich and sticking one’s head in the sand by just doing nothing accomplishes exactly that…nothing…which is what we have had in this state for the last 10 years and you can see where that has gotten us.