2012 Tuesday: The one thing both sides agree on
There has been one consistent message from both President Obama and Mitt Romney (and, before him, the other GOP candidates) about what’s at the heart of this 2012 election. Everything else revolves around that one thing: the size and scope of government.
In a recent column, the Wall Street Journal’s Gerald Seib put the difference between the two men’s plans — Obama’s for Washington to spend 22.5 percent of GDP in the coming years, vs. Romney’s to reduce spending levels to 20 percent — at $6 trillion over 10 years:
In the view of Obama partisans, it’s the difference between a government that keeps its promise to senior citizens counting on Medicare and one that doesn’t, and the difference between a country that invests in the education, infrastructure and basic research needed to be competitive, and one that falls behind the Chinese and the other roaring new economic powers.
In the eyes of Romney partisans, it’s the difference between a country that trims spending close to the average of recent decades rather than one that eats up resources on government programs, and between a nation that relies on the private sector for a new wave of economic growth and one that slides toward European socialism and declining personal freedom.
Neither side shies away from such dramatic descriptions. Mr. Obama plans a speech Thursday in Cleveland that aides say will help frame the election as a choice between fundamentally different views. Mr. Romney’s economic manifesto’s conclusion is entitled simply, “A Stark Choice.”
This is why it wasn’t surprising to hear Obama last week emphasize the public sector in his remarks about the economy and what’s holding back growth. In his view, government makes choices and “investments” that direct and drive economic growth. (It hasn’t happened yet on his watch, but that apparently is still George Bush’s fault.)
And that’s why it isn’t surprising to hear Romney talk about the morality of capitalism and dispute the idea that we’ll revive the economy by borrowing (more) money to hire more teachers, firefighters and police officers.
This is the whole shooting match. Every other issue is an offshoot of, or distraction from, this fundamental disagreement.
The electorate has split sharply in each direction in recent years — toward bigger government in 2008, and toward smaller government in 2010. It’s hard to say if either side can earn such a clear victory this fall. But the key, as a recent Democratic strategy memo by James Carville’s group makes clear, will be arguing for a brighter future.
In my view, the side that better makes the case for itself, rather than against the other, wins the election. Neither side is really moving in that direction yet. There may be a first-mover advantage to the one that gets there the quickest.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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216 comments Add your comment
Sherlock
June 12th, 2012
11:48 am
First.
Really?
June 12th, 2012
11:52 am
Really Sherlock.. how juvenile…
The Obama view is clearly why there is no choice in the election in November… Obama.. really!
Atlanta Thrashers Fan
June 12th, 2012
12:02 pm
Here is another bi-partisan position of both sides of the aisle:
The Atlanta Spirit Group is the “Jerry Sandusky” of sports ownership groups, and Thrashers Fans, both liberals and conservatives, were a collective 8-year-old who just loved hockey.
real john
June 12th, 2012
12:03 pm
Good article Kyle.
As usual, Obama and the Democrats have promised more than they can actually pay for. If more spending was the solution, Greece’s economy would be on fire right now.
We can’t keep borrowing money forever. Its not different that your cousin or friend who has $50k in credit card debt, yet they are asking you for a loan because they promise “this time will be different.” Its an absolute insane strategy that Obama and the Dems keep trying. Are they really that stupid that they can’t learn lessons from Europe?
Don't Tread
June 12th, 2012
12:09 pm
“government makes choices and “investments” that direct and drive economic growth”
Yeah, like Solyndra and the other companies the government “chose to invest in” due to the owners’ relationship with the Democrats instead of, say, the viability of their products/services or maybe the net benefit to the taxpayer. Political favoritism vs. the merit system…guess which one wins.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
12:21 pm
What both sides can agree on (taking Jeb Bush’s view as the Republican side), is that Romney can’t beat Obama in November.
Ya’ll either need to get on the Jeb Bush Republican party wagon or keep wading in the kiddie pool of the Mitt Romney/Grover Norquist/Karl Rove Republican Prty.
Your choice to win it or lose it in November.
Jefferson
June 12th, 2012
12:22 pm
GOP gives up way too easy.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 12th, 2012
12:27 pm
Mr. Obama plans a speech Thursday in Cleveland that aides say will help frame the election as a choice between fundamentally different views.
OMG, can’t you just feel the anticipation hanging thick in the air, can you not sense the nation slowly grinding to a standstill as we eagerly await the wisdom that Iman obozo is sure to lavish upon us, why must he wait until Thursday night before we receive our glorious national education, the suspense is killing us, please, please Dear Leader, don’t make us languish any longer in our abject stupidity, oh hurry and enlight, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzz
Yyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 12th, 2012
12:30 pm
Didn’t the last obozo speech get preempted by a soccer match or some such?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
12:31 pm
“I think we’re in a period here for the next year of pretty slow growth; I don’t see how we get out, notwithstanding who’s president,” Bush said. “We’ve got major headwinds with Europe and a slow down for Asia as well.”
Jeb Bush, June, 2012
clyde
June 12th, 2012
12:33 pm
This morning I heard that the average American family’s wealth is now equal to what it was in 1992,so I guess we should be cutting spending back a few years also.So.”so long” Obama.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 12th, 2012
12:36 pm
We’re not the only country in the world that has to suffer a national disgrace who thinks he’s the second coming of Socrates, chavez and castro can babble for hours on end too.
md
June 12th, 2012
12:43 pm
“Greece’s economy would be on fire right now.”
From all the news feeds I’ve seen, it is……..
The left doesn’t seem to understand that big gov’t always requires a bigger private sector……in a cyclical universe (and economy), basic math dictates gov’t needs to be smaller.
ByteMe
June 12th, 2012
12:43 pm
In a recent column, the Wall Street Journal’s Gerald Seib put the difference between the two men’s plans — Obama’s for Washington to spend 22.5 percent of GDP in the coming years, vs. Romney’s to reduce spending levels to 20 percent — at $6 trillion over 10 years:
Kyle and the rest of the GOP have NO IDEA what Romney is going to do. Just like they had no idea what Bush was going to do. Seib makes stuff up (that’s why it’s an EDITORIAL and not NEWS). And Kyle, you accepted it without any real critical thinking about whether the premise is flawed or based on magical thinking.
ByteMe
June 12th, 2012
12:44 pm
The left doesn’t seem to understand that big gov’t always requires a bigger private sector……in a cyclical universe (and economy), basic math dictates gov’t needs to be smaller.
md doesn’t understand that the economy has been expanding faster than government for the past several years. Look up the numbers.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
12:48 pm
Ohohoh, Tiberius. Come out, come out from under your rock!
If the New York Times had run a story late in the spring of 2008 revealing that the Bush administration, including Karl Rove, met weekly to mull a “kill list” of suspected jihadists, one can be sure that congressional Democrats and liberals would be apoplectic. There might even be people marching in the streets. Now the antiwar left is quiescent.
Can you say 2 in 1,000 articles in salon.com that don’t tow the liberal line? That’s 2 more than Fox News ever ran not towing the Republican line!
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
12:50 pm
Greece’s problems are two sided – spending and massive tax evasion. Like the cons like to say “You cain’t spend money when you ain’t got no money”
getalife
June 12th, 2012
12:53 pm
con children never admit facts showing they are dead wrong so that is the reason this blog is dead.
jefflz
June 12th, 2012
12:53 pm
Obama did stem the tide of the oncoming economic depression in 2009 even if he did not force a strong enough stimulus package in his futile efforts to compromise with Republicans. Furthermore, Romney is a spineless chameleon who will say whatever he thinks needs to be said depending on the audience in front of him and he does not even have the sense to pick a fresh team (just Bush retreads) or come up with a fresh idea for the economy..not one single idea. I can only hope Obama will learn from his past mistakes and is re-elected over someone who tells the Tea Party and evangelists that he is with them while telling the moderates not to pay attention to those comments. He has demonstrated that he is not leader, not presidential in the least.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 12th, 2012
12:53 pm
The only thing we need to hear from obozo Thursday night is that he’s resigning his office.
Now that would be a good speech.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 12th, 2012
12:55 pm
If Obozo is reelected, smart people will be looking for ways to get their money out of the country or into assets the government can’t reach. Democrats are determined to consume all the wealth keeping themselves in power–eventually the country would be an empty shell with most of the citizenry rioting to keep the benefits flowing.
md
June 12th, 2012
12:55 pm
“md doesn’t understand that the economy has been expanding faster than government for the past several years. Look up the numbers.”
You might want to go back to that basic math class. Expansion rates only matter if the one is always ahead of the other……when the one paying the bills contracts and the other does not, we get the mess we are in.
Gov’t is NOT self-sustaining…….and never will be in a capitalistic society.
td
June 12th, 2012
12:56 pm
ByteMe
June 12th, 2012
12:44 pm
“md doesn’t understand that the economy has been expanding faster than government for the past several years. Look up the numbers.”
And how much is that expansion rate? 1%, 2%? The Private sector needs to expand at a 100 or 1000% faster then the government. How much of our GDP do we need to spend on government and why? Answer those questions honestly and then we can talk about who to vote for.
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
12:57 pm
WSJ: “In the eyes of Romney partisans, it’s the difference between a country that trims spending close to the average of recent decades rather than one that eats up resources on government programs, and between a nation that relies on the private sector for a new wave of economic growth and one that slides toward European socialism and declining personal freedom.”
Kyle,
You lived in Belgium. Tell us about the declining personal freedom there as a result of the much higher public spending than in the US.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 12th, 2012
12:58 pm
A glimpse into the Democrat future:
————
BRUSSELS (AP) — The European Commission has been providing legal advice to others who are considering possible scenarios should Greece leave the euro, a European Union spokesman said.
Olivier Bailly said Tuesday that, legally, limits could be imposed on movement of people and money across national borders within the EU if it’s necessary to protect public order or public security — but not on economic grounds.
Jefferson
June 12th, 2012
1:00 pm
I hope some go with their precious money.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 12th, 2012
1:02 pm
Tell us about the declining personal freedom there as a result of the much higher public spending
——–
You don’t think your personal freedom would decline if the government took half your income?
Slave.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 12th, 2012
1:03 pm
Money IS precious…to those who earned it.
Thanks for a glimpse into the entitlement mentality, MaryK.
Don
June 12th, 2012
1:06 pm
I’m for cutting spending to 20% GDP and raising taxes to 20% GDP. The “who” and the “how” matter less to me than the “when.” Which candidate is for that?
Rafe Hollister
June 12th, 2012
1:07 pm
I disagree with your premise Kyle, yes, these positions will be discussed often between the two candidates.
The election however comes down to a referendum on Oblamer. Do you think he is doing a good job and we should elect him to continue, or try something else that may work for a change.
Oblamer, the one note singer, has tried stimulus, it failed miserably, so now he wants to try more stimulus, which will again fail. You can not stoke an economy by hiring police, teachers, and fire fighters, noble people all.
We have to get industry, corporations, and small business hiring again. Romney has the tools to do that, Oblamer has zero experience with the private sector as he has repeatedly shown.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
1:07 pm
If Obozo is reelected, smart people will be looking for ways to get their money out of the country or into assets the government can’t reach.
Umm, that’s called investing. Hey, newsflash! You can now invest in foreign exchanges and stocks! You can even do it from your own computer over the ETrades. You can find that by using the Googles.
Smart people diversify their portfolio and with all the other stock trading markets out there, why just use the three in the US?
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
1:09 pm
You don’t think your personal freedom would decline if the government took half your income?
Confusing personal freedom with ability to afford something? Isn’t this the whole Con take on liberal spending?
joe
June 12th, 2012
1:13 pm
The 1 thing both sides agree on is that Obama has been a disappointing president.
kelly
June 12th, 2012
1:13 pm
Some of the biggest advancements in our history had the federal government as a partner: the Manhattan Project, NASA, the internet, etc. To say that the government has no role and should be left to the private sector is to ignore much of the 20th century US.
This comments section (and many others) have devolved into a debate society designed to tally points like a sports event. And to all of you who like to use slang terms for the President (Obozo, et al.), you are not read.
md
June 12th, 2012
1:14 pm
“Umm, that’s called investing. Hey, newsflash! You can now invest in foreign exchanges and stocks! You can even do it from your own computer over the ETrades. You can find that by using the Googles.”
And Uncle Sugar has his tentacles in all those sites……even my foreign investments are reported come tax time…….
iggy
June 12th, 2012
1:15 pm
Agreed Kelly. The Kenyan CAN save us all!!
md
June 12th, 2012
1:16 pm
“Confusing personal freedom with ability to afford something?”
Sounds like one and the same to me…….an absence of choice. The “nanny” makes those decisions for for those it deems not able to……….
BS Aplenty - All My Friends Just Call Me "."
June 12th, 2012
1:19 pm
Indeed, it is the penultimate question for the 2012 election. Will this country embrace freedom and the market economy with Romney, the one that gave us a high standard of living or will we follow the Dems and Obama down the path to a stagnant or recessionary economy, high unemployment and higher taxes on current and future generations.
Big government involvement in the residential mortgage market led us to the unprecedented destruction of the personal wealth of the middle class. Median net worth of Americans declined from approximately $130,000 to $78,000 from 2007 to 2010. Most of that decline in net worth is the direct result of falling housing prices, 40%+ declines in some markets like Atlanta, which are the result of the failed big-government mortgage policies of FNMA and FHLMC.
It would be a SHAME for the people of this country to become so DEPENDENT on the government that we forget how to inovate, work hard and maintain that fiercely independent nature that so defines what being an AMERICAN is all about.
md
June 12th, 2012
1:19 pm
“Some of the biggest advancements in our history had the federal government as a partner: the Manhattan Project, NASA, the internet, etc. To say that the government has no role and should be left to the private sector is to ignore much of the 20th century US. ”
Can you point to those that say the gov’t has no role…..I seemed to miss that part.
There is a difference between “no” and “limited”………and “limited” should be dependent on how well the private sector is doing………..when one expands, the other may as well, but the reverse should also be the case or we will continue to head down the road traveled by Greece.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
1:19 pm
Lessee, I am free to buy as many yachts as I want…..but I can’t afford a single one.
Yeah, that’s identical…..
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
1:24 pm
The part you don’t miss is that the gov took a chance on Solyndra and it failed, backfired, etc. Failure is a part of calculated risk.
If you folks aren’t for taking risks, pull out your black and white tvs, grab a frozen dinner, and watch as the rest of us try to make this a better place.
HDB
June 12th, 2012
1:25 pm
…for those who keep crying that the economy isn’t improving..here’s more proof that you’re WRONG:
More Atlanta companies look to hire than fire in third quarter
More metro Atlanta companies are looking to hire than fire in the third quarter, a new survey shows.
The Manpower Employment Outlook found that 19 percent of employers in the Atlanta area expect to increase staff from July to September, while 6 percent foresee reducing staff levels in that period. The rest either plan to maintain current levels or weren’t sure.
The result is a net gain in the local employment outlook of 13 percentage points, down slightly from recent periods.
http://www.ajc.com/business/more-atlanta-companies-look-1456366.html
The question I’d be asking is this: Why is the GOP trying to TANK the economy??
md
June 12th, 2012
1:26 pm
“Lessee, I am free to buy as many yachts as I want…..but I can’t afford a single one.
Yeah, that’s identical…..”
Also a very poor analogy……..think more along the lines of what one could do paying 30% in taxes vs 50% in taxes……..20% in ones pocket. Now use that in your silly analogies…….
md
June 12th, 2012
1:29 pm
“If you folks aren’t for taking risks, pull out your black and white tvs, grab a frozen dinner, and watch as the rest of us try to make this a better place.”
Typical misunderstanding of those on the left……there is a huge difference between taking risk in the private sector vs taking that same risk in the public sector…….and again, it involves choice.
It bewilders me why those on the left have very little concept of choice……….
getalife
June 12th, 2012
1:29 pm
Of course, with the corporate media focused on “gaffes” and yellow journalism, if the cons ever did admit the obvious facts, they know they will lose.
So they created a make believe world where their failed party does nothing wrong and it is always somebody else’ s fault.
Our Presidents can play this game too and they do..
sircharles
June 12th, 2012
1:30 pm
Don’t be fooled by either of the Democratics and the Republicians. They play games with all of us as tax payers. We all are falling down over who needs to be the next President of the USA. While we are doing that, we fail to look closely at how we are being treated. If you have a credit card, banks are holding you for ramson. The USA has became a plastic-country where you can’t do anything without one. You do not need a credit card to help you in life; afterall, your tax dollars bail these banks out of foreclosures. Then, when it is your home on the block, you have to qualify…none of the banks qualified; they had your money and even gotten more from the approval of both the Democratics and Republicians. So what we are seeing over and over again is this “who is the better man” to be president; perhaps, America wold be much better off if we knew where we need to go verse just tagging along to see “what is next.” If you listen well, listen to all of Atlanta advertisements, the first thing you will see is something like this. “Have your Credi Card Ready” and called or write in for this or that. I do not buy into things that put me into debt over someone else gains. Do yourself a big favor and live like you need too. Stop talking about “big government” and look at how your next Credi Card payment will be with all of the adds-on and how they charge you for any small thing. The big government is no better because they permit these banks to take us to he river and drown. Before we run into another big mistake without being informed; we all better do our homework and do it well. There are better choices in banking; purchasing food, cars, every day living if we just stop permitting all of this advertisments from getting next to us. All of these “fast-food” establishments have raised their prices for food that you can make yourself; consumers are the heartbeat of the economy, not the businesses; you have a bigger choice of not buying from them; and then, you will see how they will lower their prices to you back in their doors. I guess,like so many other things, we want to part of the consumers who falls for anything! I always look twice and found out that looks is very deceiving. You are paying for more and getting less and less. Next time, you do the math on what you are actual getting…….speak up aboat the woe’s of being a consumer of America’s products while you help others to get rich!
getalife
June 12th, 2012
1:32 pm
No joe.
I knew he was just a politician and corrupt congress will not change.
md
June 12th, 2012
1:32 pm
“More Atlanta companies look to hire than fire in third quarter”
Kin to the proverbial counting of chickens before they hatch?
Using a survey of “intentions” is a bit risky, don’t you think? I’ve been hearing the housing market is on the move for 5 years now……….this is always the year.
Jefferson
June 12th, 2012
1:38 pm
If you think like a dog, you have no future.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
1:41 pm
Using a survey of “intentions” is a bit risky, don’t you think?
more of that risk adverse nonsense. Every company I’ve ever worked for or owned stock in used projections and forecasts. Its it an exact science, no, but you still need it to help plan.
md, go hide under your bed and let the adults keep working on this economy thing. Evidently, you can’t psychologically handle risk.
md
June 12th, 2012
1:45 pm
“Every company I’ve ever worked for or owned stock in used projections and forecasts. ”
Yep, mine too……..and they included best case AND worst case scenarios……..evidently yours didn’t…
saywhat?
June 12th, 2012
1:48 pm
MarkV
“Kyle,
You lived in Belgium. Tell us about the declining personal freedom there as a result of the much higher public spending than in the US.”
________________________________________
I am curious to hear the answer to this as well. Its been a while since I have read a news story about how enslaved the Europeans are feeling as a result of government spending..
md
June 12th, 2012
1:48 pm
“md, go hide under your bed and let the adults keep working on this economy thing. Evidently, you can’t psychologically handle risk.”
Funny, considering I’m one of the few that understand that I’m upside down on my mortgage because of that very same risk concept……….I CHOSE to play the game, and unfortunately the risk won out this time.
Don’t preach to me about risk……I know it exists in EVERY situation……….
md
June 12th, 2012
1:52 pm
“Its been a while since I have read a news story about how enslaved the Europeans are feeling as a result of government spending..”
Hmmm……you been under Finn’s bed? How could one miss all those stories on Greece…….
grated
June 12th, 2012
2:02 pm
It is true that the candidate that gets there the firstest with the mostest hogwash will win the election. That’s simply a total fact, Jack.
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
2:03 pm
saywhat? @ 1:48 pm
If Kyle comes up with some perceived (by him) losses of freedom, I am going to ask him which dictator or foreign power imposed it on the Belgians, and what is the political system in Belgium called. Could it be democracy?
md
June 12th, 2012
2:10 pm
Well……Greece is experiencing it’s form of “democracy” too……they got to choose their misery.
And Belgium’s debt to gdp ratio is 99%…….well on their way to their own democratic misery…….
Liz
June 12th, 2012
2:10 pm
The side that aims to destroy the middle class, is the one that will destroy the middle class. It will take a generation or two to recover from the plan to broaden the tax base, and lower the tax rates, by eliminating the mortgage interest deduction. Without a real estate recovery, the economy recovery will drag on, and on. The wealth lost to date, will not recover if the mortgage interest deduction is eliminated.
md
June 12th, 2012
2:13 pm
You guys seem to miss the basic fact that if/when a country goes bankrupt then ALL will be losing freedoms of one form or another………but, at least they can say they voted for it.
Democracy is NOT voting for the neighbor to pay more in taxes……real democracy is voting for everybody to pay more taxes……….
Jefferson
June 12th, 2012
2:15 pm
Greece matters little, just a boogie man for the weak.
carlosgvv
June 12th, 2012
2:16 pm
And in the eyes of Romney and Republicans in the House and Senate, it’s the difference between serving the people (Obama) and serving Big Business (Romney and company).
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
2:18 pm
“In the view of Obama partisans, it’s the difference between a government that keeps its promise to senior citizens counting on Medicare and one that doesn’t, and the difference between a country that invests in the education, infrastructure and basic research needed to be competitive, and one that falls behind the Chinese and the other roaring new economic powers.”
That is, indeed, the choice. And the important issue is not Bush’s “fault,” it is the fact that Romney’s recipe had been tried by Bush, and in 2008 we saw the result.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 12th, 2012
2:18 pm
Finn: Confusing personal freedom with ability to afford something? Isn’t this the whole Con take on liberal spending?
———-
How much freedom do you have if the government takes all of your earnings in taxes? Do you have more freedom if they only take half? Do you have more freedom still if they take only 10%?
Stop thinking like a slave.
Your income is your labor and productivity in the form of money. Take your money, take your freedom.
That’s why money is precious to those who earned it. Not so much to the government and other parasites.
Kyle Wingfield
June 12th, 2012
2:25 pm
ByteMe @ 12:43: “Seib makes stuff up”? Seriously?
The reference is to the House GOP budget plan, which calls for capping spending at no more than 20% of GDP and which Romney, as Seib notes, has endorsed. What is “made up” about that?
Btw, Seib doesn’t write for the editorial page. He’s the WSJ’s top news editor in Washington. Whatever you think of the WSJ editorial page — I assume you and I have very different opinions there — you’re factually incorrect about what Seib does.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 12th, 2012
2:25 pm
Growth is 1.9% and unemployment is 8.2%, higher than when Obozo took office.
Let’s keep doing the same things that have kept us in this mess though. Real smart.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
June 12th, 2012
2:25 pm
Romney’s to reduce spending levels to 20 percent — at $6 trillion over 10 years:
If you believe that I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
Republicans love to spend and Big Government too.
I just doesn’t matter when they are in power.
Ronnie Raygun
June 12th, 2012
2:27 pm
So the WSJ is taking Bishop Romney’s magical asterisk for what unknown/undisclosed “waste” he will cut from the budget as fact? With gullibility like this it’s no wonder these financial geniuses on Wall Street tanked the economy.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
June 12th, 2012
2:28 pm
Growth is 1.9% and unemployment is 8.2%, higher than when Obozo took office.
It was lower when Obama took office.
You conveniently left out that it was skyrocketing when he took office and made it all the way up to 10 percent.
Bush himself said ” this sucker could go down ”
Its now down to 8.
Furious Styles
June 12th, 2012
2:32 pm
Meanwhile…the KKK has the entire Georgia Adopt A Road program held hostage with the Gold Ol Boys at the Gold Dome scratching their heads and running into each wondering what to do. They will sue, will the Gold Domer’s cave in or scrape the entire program and look even weaker??
Kyle Wingfield
June 12th, 2012
2:36 pm
Raygun: Nope. Seib writes:
“Mr. Romney, as a candidate, has avoided presenting a similarly detailed plan. But his economic platform proclaims that ‘as president, Mitt Romney will immediately move to cut spending and cap it at 20% of GDP,’ and then go lower. It’s possible to see in general what that path would look like by examining a budget outline proposed by House Republicans — which Mr. Romney has endorsed — because it calls for a 10-year average spending level of precisely 20%.”
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 12th, 2012
2:36 pm
The recession ended three years ago. Growth is still below the long run average. It should be higher than average coming out of a recession.
Obozo has failed.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
June 12th, 2012
2:38 pm
I guess Romney will cut spending.
Just like Bush did LOL
Man you guys fall for it every time.
jconservative
June 12th, 2012
2:44 pm
For the last 31 years we have been busy increasing government spending and reducing government revenue. The result is the near $16 trillion national debt we now own.
The election is about who will do what to reverse these 31 year trends. To date no one has publicly announced their intention to reverse both trends. Obama wants to increase both spending and revenue. Romney wants to cut both revenue and spending. Both plans leave us where we are now, owning a near $16 trillion national debt.
A $16 trillion National Debt. “And everybody has a share”.
That Black guy
June 12th, 2012
2:46 pm
kelly
June 12th, 2012
1:13 pm
Some of the biggest advancements in our history had the federal government as a partner: the Manhattan Project, NASA, the internet, etc. To say that the government has no role and should be left to the private sector is to ignore much of the 20th century US.
_____________________________________________
Why are you beating on that strawman you created.
Please cite, link, or source where it was stated that gov’t should have “NO” role as you stated.
Don't Tread
June 12th, 2012
2:50 pm
And in the eyes of Romney and Republicans in the House and Senate, it’s the difference between serving their people (Obama) and serving Big Business (Romney and company).
FYT
weetamoe
June 12th, 2012
2:51 pm
I think it’s toe the line, and since Booker refused to he is *dead to us* say the democrat party leaders. Even Lanny Davis (whose Mom and Dad named for Lanny Budd) told Obama *you have some vicious people working for you.*
Just voted for a Coke stock split. Sold mine to play with some interesting stocks but my husband and I have loads in our joint investment package and he has loads in his Roth.
That Black guy
June 12th, 2012
2:52 pm
Finn McCool (The System isn’t Broken; It’s Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
1:24 pm
The part you don’t miss is that the gov took a chance on Solyndra and it failed, backfired, etc. Failure is a part of calculated risk.
__________________________________________
Solar Trust of America: FAIL
Bright Source: FAIL
Solyndra: FAIL
LSP Energy: FAIL
Energy Conversion Devices: FAIL
Abound Solar: FAIL
SunPower: FAIL
Beacon Power: FAIL
Ecotality: FAIL
A123 Solar: FAIL
UniSolar: FAIL
Azure Dynamics: FAIL
Evergreen Solar: FAIL
Ener1: FAIL
Finn, maybe people are asking gov’t to perform more due diligence in selecting which enterprises to take a chance on.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
2:53 pm
“I guess Romney will cut spending.
Just like Bush did LOL
Man you guys fall for it every time.”
Or we can just re-elect the failure that promises to do more of what has failed.
I think I’ll vote for the possibility of change, rather than the certainty of continued failure, which is why I’m voting for Romney.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
June 12th, 2012
2:58 pm
I think I’ll vote for the possibility of change, rather than the certainty of continued failure, which is why I’m voting for Romney.
Me ill vote for some success. even if it is modest.
Rather than going back to the same supply side trickle down crap that got us in this mess.
I’m almost 40 and Ive been hearing that trickle down crap my whole life. Ive yet to feel any trickle.
Hint: It doesn’t trickle. The rich just keep it and become the Vanderbilt’s or Rockefeller’s
Bush actually cut taxes while fighting two wars. Unprecedented in American history.
I can see Cheesy Grits doing the same.
No thanks.
That Black guy
June 12th, 2012
2:58 pm
Finn, on second thought, ignore my last post. After reading a few of your comments it’s obvious that you don’t want to discuss or exchange ideas.
You just want to fling poo.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
3:02 pm
“Me ill vote for some success. even if it is modest. ”
If you think this worst President in the history of this nation has had some success, I’d hate to see what you consider failure.
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
June 12th, 2012
3:04 pm
I’d hate to see what you consider failure.
Bush ( Romney )
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
June 12th, 2012
3:06 pm
Pretty telling Cheesy Grits is down 20 points in the state he was Governor.
Obviously they dont care for him and they should know him best.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/ma/massachusetts_romney_vs_obama-1804.html
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 12th, 2012
3:11 pm
Yeah, Our President Bush’s 4-6% unemployment and miserly $300 billion deficits were a nightmare.
Obozo has failed.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
3:15 pm
In case you missed it, Massachusetts is a very, very blue state, Grits.
Your comment is considered a deflection from the real issue.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
3:17 pm
Bush wasn’t all that great, Grits, but his 8 year record shines compared to this pretender in just 3 1/2 years of no significant accomplishments.
Jefferson
June 12th, 2012
3:20 pm
So why did McCain lose ?
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
3:22 pm
“So why did McCain lose ?”
Deflection. Please TRY to add something of significance to this thread, will ya, Jefferson?
Road Scholar
June 12th, 2012
3:25 pm
So, Kyle, the repubs have not found a way to pass a meaningful long term transportation bill in the House that the Senate will even consider. Do you know that about 98% of that money goes to contracts with the private sector? The remaining 2% goes to state and federal workers, research and supplies (the later two are furnished by the private sector). Those workers spend their money in the private sector. The transportation monies turn over as many as 7 times, thus multiplying the benefit.
Spending monies on infrastructure creates both state, federal (both low) and private sector jobs. The same with military spending except we BUILD things through infrastructure instead of blowing things up by the military! Do we need some bridges to collapse before the repubs “see the light” (if that is even possible).
Kyle Wingfield
June 12th, 2012
3:28 pm
Just a reminder to everyone: Leaving letters out of banned words to skirt the language filter is not acceptable. If you know you need to modify the word to get around the filter, then you ought to know better than to use it at all.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
3:30 pm
“So, Kyle, the repubs have not found a way to pass a meaningful long term transportation bill in the House that the Senate will even consider.”
Well, considering Stimulus I and II were complete failures, maybe they now believe that throwing money down a rathole isn’t the way to get an economy to grow, especially when you have to borrow the money to pay for it.
Haven’t you noticed that the last time we borrowed and spent, the money ran out? That’s what happens when government tries to stimulate the economy, instead of getting out of the economy’s way.
stands for decibels
June 12th, 2012
3:32 pm
Leaving letters out of banned words to skirt the language filter is not acceptable.
J-miny Cr-ckets, this place is strict!
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
3:39 pm
“Leaving letters out of banned words to skirt the language filter is not acceptable. ”
Good thing we can still type “dumb masses” without getting in trouble . . . .
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
3:43 pm
Say it ain’t so!
Obama lying about Romney’s job record”
http://www.boortz.com/weblogs/nealz-nuze/2012/jun/12/obama-lying-about-romneys-job-record-mass/
“Right now the Obama campaign is pushing this line that while Romney was governor of Massachusetts job creation in that state “plummeted to 47th out of 50.” The truth?
How about the Bureau of Labor Statistics. When Romney took office in 2003 Massachusetts ranked 51st (including DC) in job growth. Romney left office in December of 2006. At that time Massachusetts ranked 30th. Only five states did better during that time. The unemployment rate dropped during Romney’s tenure.
Nobody can quite figure out how the Obama campaign comes up with this “plummeted to 47th” figure.”
I can . . . .
They live to lie.
Jefferson
June 12th, 2012
3:43 pm
If the GOP policies are so great and yeild great results why did McCain lost ? Deflection is failure to address the fact that it is because the failed policies of the GOP were so bad that the country was sick of them.
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
3:45 pm
Germany:
Government spending: 47.5% GDP
GDP growth; 3.5%
http://www.heritage.org/index/country/germany
ragnar danneskjold
June 12th, 2012
3:51 pm
If the difference in the candidates is understood, the smaller government advocates will prevail. My forecast is that the Obamaniacs will suggest, without basis of course, that Romney is a big spender, and will run against the spending practices of George W Bush – that is all they have. Suppose Bain Capital was successful because it always increased spending when it took over an entity. Not.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 12th, 2012
3:59 pm
Our President Reagan got the economy growing at over 7% coming out of the Carter recession.
Obozo isn’t very Reaganesque.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
4:05 pm
hmm, Andrew Leonard over at Salon read teh sme article Kyle did, but with a different response:
But the math is also entirely illusory. You don’t have to look far to see gaping holes in Seib’s argument, holes big enough for the entire state of Massachusetts to drive through with Great Danes strapped to the roof of every car.
Hole No. 1) In contrast to Obama, whose 10-year spending plan is detailed in his most recently released budget, we don’t know much about Romney’s agenda, because, as Seib concedes, ” Mr. Romney … has avoided presenting a similarly detailed plan.”
Hole No. 2) Romney advocates increasing military spending, which implies extraordinarily sharp cutbacks on domestic programs, but “Mr. Romney hasn’t specified exactly where cutbacks would come.”
Hole No. 3) “Because of his parallel calls for tax cuts, it isn’t likely Mr. Romney’s plan actually would eliminate the deficit despite its lower spending.”
This is embarrassing. Eliminate the deficit? There’s almost no way in which Romney’s plan wouldn’t make the deficit much, much worse. Seib’s own article makes it exquisitely clear why Romney hasn’t provided specific details on how he would spend $6 trillion less than Obama over the next 10 years. Because it’s impossible to achieve his goals without guaranteeing a massive GOP defeat in 2020.
md
June 12th, 2012
4:06 pm
“Greece matters little, just a boogie man for the weak.”
I’m guessing the Greeks think otherwise……but I digress…..in the grand scheme of things, you are right, they can be cast off (and may yet be), but coupled with Spain, Portugal, Ireland and a few others we have yet to see, the picture becomes clearer…….spending what one doesn’t have is not a good growth strategy.
Don't Tread
June 12th, 2012
4:06 pm
Germany: 0 – 45% personal income tax, and 19% VAT on top of that.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
4:08 pm
“If the GOP policies are so great and yeild great results why did McCain lost ? ”
If the GOP policies stayed the same, I might agree with you, Jefferson.
Alas, their policies change as the circumstances warrant them to. Tough for you, fella.
Obama’s don’t, even when they fail.
td
June 12th, 2012
4:08 pm
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
3:45 pm
Germany:
Government spending: 47.5% GDP
GDP growth; 3.5%
This means that the average tax rate is 47.5% and if their poor pays nothing then the middle class is paying more then 50% taxes. I do not know about you but I do not want to live in a country that the government is getting 50% + of my money and making all the decisions on the winners and losers. If you do then it just proves you are not in favor of personal freedom.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
4:10 pm
In case you missed it, MaryV, Germany is Germany and we are the United States of America.
Generally, we do not follow, but lead.
Except for these past 3 1/2 years.
Don't Tread
June 12th, 2012
4:13 pm
“Finn, maybe people are asking gov’t to perform more due diligence in selecting which enterprises to take a chance on.”
But…they DID exercise due diligence. They checked the Democrat supporter list before investing.
Kyle Wingfield
June 12th, 2012
4:17 pm
Finn @ 4:05: Leonard is cherry-picking lines from Seib’s article in order to create some of those “holes.”
Seib writes, as I mentioned in an earlier comment, that Romney’s “economic platform proclaims that ‘as president, Mitt Romney will immediately move to cut spending and cap it at 20% of GDP,’ and then go lower.” Seib also cites Romney’s endorsement of the House GOP budget, which does specify a path of reducing spending to an average of 20% of GDP over the next the decade.
Neither Seib’s column nor this post judges the feasibility of Romney’s plan or the likelihood it would come to pass as advertised (neither does either of us examine Obama’s plan in that way). We only looked at what the two men are selling. If you want to judge the specificity or feasibility of either man’s plan, be my guest. But it’s not really in dispute that they are selling different notions of the proper size and scope of government.
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
4:18 pm
td @ 4:08 pm
As usual, you are missing the point, just as all the other hypocrites on this blog. When it had suited them, they praised the German economic policy and results.
md
June 12th, 2012
4:20 pm
“it is the fact that Romney’s recipe had been tried by Bush, and in 2008 we saw the result.”
Please………2008 was the culmination of many bad policies from both “sides”, the least of which was getting away from the basic ratios used for decades to qualify for mortgages…..to lay it at the feet of Bush is intellectually dishonest at best.
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
4:28 pm
md @4:20 pm
“Please………2008 was the culmination of many bad policies from both “sides”, the least of which was getting away from the basic ratios used for decades to qualify for mortgages…..to lay it at the feet of Bush is intellectually dishonest at best.”
And Romney’s plans, with the emphasis on deregulation, would be a renewal of those bad policies.
Rafe Hollister
June 12th, 2012
4:31 pm
they praised the German Economic policy and results.
Not quite, Mark, they praised Merkel’s austerity measures. Big difference!
You are the one always complaining about non specific language.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
4:32 pm
Romney is selling lies with his promise of tax cuts going deeper than Shrub’s tax cuts. They aren’t interested in reducing the deficit – that’s only a part of the discussion when the other party is in the White House.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
4:33 pm
On the myth of German austerity:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/28/euro-austerity-continued/
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
4:42 pm
Romney is compared to Bush, which he is not. Different people, different era.
But, the same people will not compare Oblamer I to Oblamer II.
According to them, we are supposed to believe the promises that Oblamer I failed to keep, will be kept by Oblamer II.
This time he is going to create jobs.
This time he is going to revive the economy.
This time the stimulus is going to work.
This time green energy will become economical.
This time he is going to cut the deficit in half by the end of his second term.
He is going to have the most transparent administration, except for his justice department, I guess.
He is going to close Gitmo, I’m sure.
He is not going to hire lobbyist for his WH, in the second term, I’m sure.
He is going to be post racial and post partisan in the second term, after just being post logical in the first term.
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
4:46 pm
Rafe Hollister @ 4:31 pm
You have not paid attention.
Martin Williams
June 12th, 2012
5:04 pm
Kyle, you really need to stop writing/or make nonsense statements like the scope and size of government. Kyle, do you really know the meaning of goernment? You as a writer need to start telling these idiot GOP governors to stop laying off teachers especially. We currently ranked about 30TH in the industralized world when it comes to education. Governments just have to be reasonable in terms of spending but governments are NOT like a business in for profit. Do you know the United States government has over 270 military installations all over the world and you expect it to keep a surplus every budget year…….oh, another one for you Kyle, do you know the United States government has being in wars for than 50 years and counting? You all need to wake up fools. Now I understand why Jessie Ventura former governor of Minesota call the Democratic party the Crips and the Republican party the Bloods as continue to behave like gang members. For me both parties are the same. Both parties have sold out to Coporations and Lobbyist for the past 100 years. You all think about it especially you Kyle. This is not personal Kyle but try to be sensible sometimes when you write.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
5:06 pm
When it had suited them, they praised the German economic policy and results.
I knew it was a waste of energy, but, I was responding to the inaccurate and simplistic statement above from your post at 4:18, Mark. No conservative has ever praised Germany’s socialistic economic structure, only Merkel’s decision to embrace austerity, which was brilliant. If, only we had taken the same route, maybe Oblamer would be looking at better prospects for reelection.
md
June 12th, 2012
5:08 pm
“And Romney’s plans, with the emphasis on deregulation, would be a renewal of those bad policies.”
If anything, Romney (as a businessman) knows what those ratios are and why they are necessary……so I’d guess your speculation is unwarranted.
Skip
June 12th, 2012
5:08 pm
Romney, is he the guy that lost to the guy that lost to Obama? Is that the guy your running? That’s the best you can come up with, think about that for a second.
Jefferson
June 12th, 2012
5:09 pm
No reason at all to think the GOP has changed. NONE.
Jefferson
June 12th, 2012
5:10 pm
Rick Santorium thinks little of Romney.
1961_Xer
June 12th, 2012
5:12 pm
“I’m for cutting spending to 20% GDP and raising taxes to 20% GDP.”
Bingo.
carlosgvv
June 12th, 2012
5:14 pm
Don’t Tread – 2:50
Back at you.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 12th, 2012
5:15 pm
Jefferson consults with Santorum on who to vote for. Interesting.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
June 12th, 2012
5:32 pm
Kyle, you really need to stop writing/or make nonsense statements like the scope and size of government. Kyle, do you really know the meaning of goernment? You as a writer need to start telling these idiot GOP governors to stop laying off teachers especially
I guess you’re an educator tool. While much of the rest of the world is now spitting out smarter students than the good old U.S of.A, spending less money per student to do so, you have to ask yourself. Is black history month every year more or less important than math or science?? Or how about the wasted “field trips” to theme parks and such?
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
5:39 pm
No reason at all to think the Oblamer has changed. NONE.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
June 12th, 2012
5:40 pm
Skip
June 12th, 2012
5:08 pm
Romney, is he the guy that lost to the guy that lost to Obama? Is that the guy your running? That’s the best you can come up with, think about that for a second.
It took almost 8 years for Bush to “f” things up. The current idiot in chief needs to go back to his Ivy league school and scoop mashed potatoes in the lunch room for his primary job.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
5:41 pm
Bill Clinton thinks little of Oblamer.
Jefferson, you are just so stimulating.
JDW
June 12th, 2012
5:45 pm
@Kyle…”There has been one consistent message from both President Obama and Mitt Romney (and, before him, the other GOP candidates) about what’s at the heart of this 2012 election. Everything else revolves around that one thing: the size and scope of government.”
Yep same old song and dance. The Republicans frame a platform that is centered on “reducing the size and scope of government” and cutting taxes. Reagan started this fairy tale and every Republican since has repeated it. In practice what happens EVERY TIME as we have discussed ad nauseam is that Republicans spend more and cut taxes at the same time leading to increased deficits. Seems to me they bear more than a passing resemblance to the snake oil salesmen of old.
I believe that in the end this election will come down to the voting public checking the record….
Reagan cut taxes increased spending a medium amount
Bush 1 cut taxes increased spending some
Clinton RAISED taxes increased spending less
Duhbya cut taxes increased spending by a bunch
And choosing not to poke themselves in the eye with the same stick yet again.
PS as of now Obama is on the fence…cut taxes and slowdown in spending, but at least he has a coherent spending plan versus a fairy tale and maybe just maybe he will do the right thing and generate some tax revenue.
BTW since I have other things to do later…Tiberuis you are a moron… we had this discussion just the other day. Spending, in constant 2005 dollars DECREASED more than $90 Billion from Bush’s last budget year to Obama’s first and is on track to increase for the entire term about as much as Reagan did….see spending in 2005 dollars below (totals are in last budget year)…
Reagan 1,451.7 35.7
Reagan 1,498.6 46.9
Reagan 1,500.4 1.8
Reagan 1,612.2 111.8
Reagan 1,644.6 32.4
Reagan 1,616.0 -28.6
Reagan 1,663.2 47.2
Reagan 1,723.3 60.1 307.3
Bush 1 1,831.3 108.0
Bush 2 1,848.2 16.9
Bush 3 1,857.1 8.9
Bush 4 1,844.7 -12.4 121.4
Clinton 1,878.4 33.7
Clinton 1,895.9 17.5
Clinton 1,906.1 10.2
Clinton 1,915.4 9.3
Clinton 1,958.1 42.7
Clinton 1,988.6 30.5
Clinton 2,039.9 51.3
Clinton 2,071.7 31.8 227.0
Duhbya 2,200.6 128.9
Duhbya 2,303.2 102.6
Duhbya 2,377.2 74.0
Duhbya 2,472.0 94.8
Duhbya 2,564.3 92.3
Duhbya 2,564.1 -0.2
Duhbya 2,703.8 139.7
Duhbya 3,173.4 469.6 1,101.7
Obama 3,081.0 -92.4
Obama 3,126.3 45.3
Obama (Projected) 3,212.5 86.2
Obama (Projected) 3,157.4 -55.1
Obama (Projected) 3,165.0 7.6
Obama (Projected) 3,246.6 81.6
Obama (Projected) 3,395.7 149.1
Obama (Projected) 3,484.1 88.4 310.7
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
June 12th, 2012
5:46 pm
God help us if Cheesy Grits does get elected.
The last Republican administration ended with w saying ” This sucker could go down ”
If Cheesy Grits wins it might just happen this time.
Not thanks.
Thank god Obama looks pretty safe. Especially with the electoral map.
Cheesy Grits would have to win almost all the toss ups.
Not gonna happen.
td
June 12th, 2012
6:00 pm
Martin Williams
June 12th, 2012
5:04 pm
” We currently ranked about 30TH in the industralized world when it comes to education”
And we spend more on a per pupil bases then any other country in the world. What does this tell you?
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
6:03 pm
http://www.businessinsider.com/barack-obama-african-american-vote-black-north-carolina-2012-6
I constantly hear the Obamabots on here trumping the old outdated map that Karl Rove has posted online. I think he has NC in the yellow, or swing states. Just to show how unreliable this map is, this Dem leaning poll firm now shows Romney getting 20% of the black vote in NC. One of the pollsters reports he has never seen such a drastic shift in such a short time. Obama has gone from up by 5 to down by 2 in about a month.
Now,we know what Spike Lee says he is so worried about the outcome.
td
June 12th, 2012
6:04 pm
Martin Williams
June 12th, 2012
5:04 pm
Since the Dems and the Reps are wrong then please enlighten all of us to what we should do? Who should we support? What is an acceptable platform and what should the planks look like? I for one wait patiently for your response since I am one of the many fools that wants to know what I should be doing.
md
June 12th, 2012
6:10 pm
” We currently ranked about 30TH in the industralized world when it comes to education”
And 1/3 of students are currently choosing to drop out of said system and costing society 300 billion annually……..and the enablers have nothing more to say than “poor thing”.
After putting themselves on the hard road in life they then turn to other assistance programs after spurning the first one……and folks wonder why we are in such sad shape.
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
6:11 pm
Rafe Hollister @ 5:06 pm
MarkV: “When it had suited them, they praised the German economic policy and results.”
Rafe: “I knew it was a waste of energy, but, I was responding to the inaccurate and simplistic statement above from your post at 4:18, Mark. No conservative has ever praised Germany’s socialistic economic structure,”
I know it is a waste of energy, but I will point out that the above quote shows that I wrote about Germany economic policy and results, and not about German economic structure. I won’t even spend much time correcting the usual nonsense about “socialistic structure.” There is a capitalist economy and socialist economy. Germany has a capitalistic, not socialistic economy.
The main point of my original post, which apparently but no surprisingly, escaped you and others, is that Kyle and the Republicans are in arms about the unbelievable, impossible, ridiculous idea of spending “22.5 percent of GDP in the coming years, vs. Romney’s to reduce spending levels to 20 percent” which, according to them, would “hold back the growth” of the economy, when the data show that other developed, industrial, capitalistic countries can have a good growth at much higher spending percentage. And then there are the idiots here who respond to this not by an argument, but by making stupid accusations, as if I had advocated the US to spend that high percentage.
md
June 12th, 2012
6:15 pm
“Up to 7.5 million students miss nearly a month of school each year, making them much more likely to drop out before they graduate, according to a new national report.
What’s more startling is that only six states track chronic absenteeism in schools, according to a study by Johns Hopkins University researchers released Thursday at events in Philadelphia and Washington, D.C.”
It’s not the schools……….it’s the students (and parents).
md
June 12th, 2012
6:21 pm
The other side of the “selfish” argument:
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-6528227.html
td
June 12th, 2012
6:21 pm
md
June 12th, 2012
6:15 pm
“Up to 7.5 million students miss nearly a month of school each year, making them much more likely to drop out before they graduate, according to a new national report.
What’s more startling is that only six states track chronic absenteeism in schools, according to a study by Johns Hopkins University researchers released Thursday at events in Philadelphia and Washington, D.C.”
It’s not the schools……….it’s the students (and parents).
Amen and until we (all Americans of both political parties) start to shame these parents publicly then nothing is going to change.
finn mccool
June 12th, 2012
6:42 pm
Ya’ll need to watch The Wire.
Season through season 5.
Martin Williams
June 12th, 2012
7:03 pm
You all know the GOP idiots are doing everything in their selfish power to make Obama a one term president and they all tell you how much they love this country. If any GOP politician walks by me tells me how much they love this country and simply tell them you are very big liar. What is the difference between a one term and a two term president? One term president like Jimmy Carter still has a favourable rating than George W Bush, even H. W. Bush got better rating than his son. At the end he is going to get a chance at a seconf term. George W Bush got a second chance even after the big lie to go to war in Iraq, Americans still voted for him………….WOW, shame to all who voted to give W. Bush a second term………results, serious deficit plus a big time recession. I truly believe Obama should give back the presidency to the GOP folks who wanted it so badly. I know who ever is in the White House come January, 2013 will enjoy an un-employment rate in double digits and hope I am wrong. It will have nothing to do with leadership, but just world events. Too many WARS period. Thank God we don’t have John McCain in the White House.
md
June 12th, 2012
7:06 pm
“Amen and until we (all Americans of both political parties) start to shame these parents publicly then nothing is going to change.”
As long as one side lumps them into the “poor, poor, pitiful poor” group and insists in throwing money at them, nothing will change. A short term feel good measure with terrible long term results…….
Tiberius - Banned by Bookman and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
7:09 pm
Martin Williams, you’re a very bitter, brainwashed man. I prescribe a health dose of reality and a nice walk outside to put you in a better (and more realistic ) frame of mind.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
7:20 pm
Martin Williams
Hey, you gotta even it up here. You said both Dems and Reps were bad, now you just posted a grievance list with the GOP, did you leave out a paragraph?
I guess, that was must have just been a throw away line, to try and get someone to read your pro-Oblamer drivel.
@@
June 12th, 2012
7:52 pm
In his view, government makes choices and “investments” that direct and drive economic growth.
Thomas Sowell made a similar observation:
It bothers me a little when conservatives call Barack Obama a “socialist.” He certainly is an enemy of the free market, and wants politicians and bureaucrats to make the fundamental decisions about the economy. But that does not mean that he wants government ownership of the means of production, which has long been a standard definition of socialism.
What President Obama has been pushing for, and moving toward, is more insidious: government control of the economy, while leaving ownership in private hands. That way, politicians get to call the shots but, when their bright ideas lead to disaster, they can always blame those who own businesses in the private sector.
Politically, it is heads-I-win when things go right, and tails-you-lose when things go wrong. This is far preferable, from Obama’s point of view, since it gives him a variety of scapegoats for all his failed policies, without having to use President Bush as a scapegoat all the time.–Thomas Sowell
Six months into his first year, the public grew tired of his blame game, and yet, he continues to this day. I thought he was smarter than that.
I was wrong!
schnirt
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
8:11 pm
I thought he was smarter than that.
Guess we will never know, what with his education records all locked up tighter than he keeps classified information.
But as for Romney, two Harvard professional schools completed with honors in four years. Heard he wanted to go to business school, but his dad wanted him to be a lawyer, so he said what the heck, I’ll just do both. He lead a study group that still has yearly reunions, so we know with whom he associated and how he performed. The other candidate is a mystery once again.
From Wikipedia regarding Romney
In 1971, he earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in English from Brigham Young University and, in 1975, a joint Juris Doctor and Master of Business Administration from Harvard University as a Baker Scholar.
bluecoat
June 12th, 2012
8:54 pm
If Obama is re-elected.then Romney can pin a book on “How to get your money out of USA.For writing the book he would qualify.
Dusty
June 12th, 2012
9:02 pm
Well, as usual, nothing new here.
Liberals want the government to spend money its doesn’t have so borrow and spend anyway.
Conservatives say do not spend money you do not have. Borrowing is debt building.
Obama spends no matter what. Romney says that is bad business.
Maybe liberals will be so busy in bankruptcy court they won’t have time to vote. With their philosophy of spending without restraint, hey must all be in total debt just like the government.
Or could it be they don’t go into big debt with their personal finances? Just want the government to spend like a drunken sailor? A rich liberal has a broken standard.
killerj
June 12th, 2012
9:58 pm
If my ears have to listen to this idiot for 4 more year,s, I will claim exempt and pay the penalty,I,m through watching hard working people lose everything they have,guns & god my friend.
JKL2
June 12th, 2012
10:32 pm
-The one thing both sides agree on
Eric Holder is a joke. Any competent president would have gotten rid of him along time ago.
hryder
June 13th, 2012
6:37 am
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENT ELECTED OFFICE HOLDERS IN THE NOVEMBER ELECTIONS. The entertainer in chief definitely should be gone as he is an incompetent with a primary ability of telling and pitting voting groups against each other since their desires are diametrically opposite.
Baker
June 13th, 2012
7:11 am
I’m totally on board with hiring more teacher, firefighters, and police officers, it’s those other bureaucrats that make up the vast majority of govt workers that I want to get rid of.
fair and balanced
June 13th, 2012
7:38 am
government employment and defense spending on military purchases increased at a far greated percent during the Reagan recovery from a mild recession than did the same employment under Obama during a far greater recession. Of course if you just plain hate Obama the facts mean nothing.
D.Cline
June 13th, 2012
7:39 am
(Reuters) – President Barack Obama’s approval ratings have dipped to their lowest level since January on deep economic worries, wiping out most of his lead in the White House race over Republican rival Mitt Romney, a Reuters/Ipsos poll showed on Tuesday.
The percentage of Americans who approve of Obama’s job performance dropped from 50 a month ago to 47, matching his mark in early January. The number who think the country is on the wrong track rose 6 percentage points in a month to 63 percent.
HadIt
June 13th, 2012
7:39 am
Did you really say the Republicians are defending against “declining personal freedom”? I suppose that’s true if you’re a heterosexual fundamentalist Christian whose drug of choice is alcohol and who believes that his “personal freedom” includes the right to force a women to bear the child of her rapist. To say the right wing fanatics currently in command of the Republican party stand for “personal freedom” is a perversion of language
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 13th, 2012
8:08 am
You don’t have to wonder how weak minded the dummycrat party strategy is when all of their ideas consist of “Republicans force women to (fill in the blank.”)
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
8:34 am
“government employment and defense spending on military purchases increased at a far greated percent during the Reagan recovery from a mild recession than did the same employment under Obama during a far greater recession.”
“fair and balanced” (yeah, right), I would like to introduce you to the concept of “historical context”.
I suggest you do some research on that subject before you post such nonsense as you did above.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
8:39 am
“To say the right wing fanatics currently in command of the Republican party stand for “personal freedom” is a perversion of language”
Let’s just say that they stand for more economic freedom, and leave it at that, shall we?
JDW
June 13th, 2012
8:49 am
@tiberius…”Let’s just say that they stand for more economic freedom, and leave it at that, shall we?”
You can say that all you…doesn’t make it true but you can say it.
Personally I think they have a lot in common with the pre-revolution French and believe in what’s best for the rich and damn the rest.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
8:52 am
JDW, please try to inject some semblance of significance into this blog, would you? Your lame attempts to redefine Obama as something other than the unmitigated disaster he’s been are getting pretty boring.
fair and balanced
June 13th, 2012
9:10 am
Tiberius- try refuting the facts – it may be a refreshing experience.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
9:21 am
“fair and balanced”, I do not need to refute the facts. Facts sitting by themselves, without the requisite historical context, are simply data.
Once historical context is applied, you’ll see that Reagan’s spending towards a specific purpose (that being the end of the biggest threat to the globe in the Soviet Union) was ultimately successful. However, it came with a cost to spending on social programs due to the fact that in order to get his military spending through Congress, he had to work with Tip O’Neill who extracted his own pound of flesh to give Reagan what he wanted. The historical difference is that Reagan actually WORKED with Congress and TALKED with Congressional leaders, instead of Obama’s “my-way-or-the-highway-or-I’ll-blame-you-for-everything” approach.
It should also be noted that while Reagan’s plan worked, Obama’s plan has failed. Just as was predicted by all too many on this blog and elsewhere.
fair and balanced
June 13th, 2012
9:58 am
580,000 public sector jobs lost under Obama while fighting two wars and several million private sector jobs created. Oh I forgot the historical context – Reagan invaded the mighty nation of Granada
and had all those military industrial people employed giving arms to Iran and to mujahadeen / islamic terrorists in Afghanistan- just a little historical context.Obama builds drones to kill terrorists who killed or plan to kill Americans.More context.
td
June 13th, 2012
10:02 am
fair and balanced
June 13th, 2012
9:58 am
“580,000 public sector jobs lost”.
Where were most of those jobs lost from? Could it be from public union states? How many of the Federal job lose is from the military troops?
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
10:02 am
Kyle’s continuing penchant for not increasing percentage of public spending over “historical average” defies any logic. It is as if a husband insisted that the monthly budget for food remained the same percentage of income, even if the food prices increased faster than other commodities. The cost of health care is an important case in point. Even while it is always desirable to eliminate or at least reduce unnecessary expenses, the fact of the aging population and increasing costs of medical technology make increasing health care costs inevitable. Those costs will thus consume a greater portion of GDP and will have to be paid by the people of this country one way or another. The people of other developed countries have decided that the fair way of paying those costs is through some form of universal health care that requires substantial public spending by the governments, and sooner or later the same will happen in the US.
MrLiberty
June 13th, 2012
10:07 am
Wait, a difference of only 2.5% of GDP is considered two sides of an issue? What these two clowns, and basically both parties and their leadership both agree on is that government must spend, spend, spend. The only real difference is whether its on the public welfare sector or the military/warfare welfare sector. That is the reason why Ron Paul was such a breath of fresh air for so many (and continues to be). He wanted massive cuts in military (not defense) spending and loopoles that would allow future generations to opt out of the bankrupt transfer schemes like SS and Medicare that the government has misled so many generations into believing were “insurance” programs.
Nothing has changed, nothing will change with either of these two idiots.
Until the american public decides that it wishes to have a new, smaller, less-intrusive role for government, nothing will ever change. Tweaking at the edges and believing that we can have our cake and eat it too is the recipe for disaster we have been following for the past 80 years.
JDW
June 13th, 2012
10:13 am
I think Luckovich has the Repugs pegged this morning….
http://blogs.ajc.com/mike-luckovich/?cxntlid=sldr_hm
JDW
June 13th, 2012
10:17 am
@Tiberius…”Your lame attempts to redefine Obama as something other than the unmitigated disaster he’s been are getting pretty boring.”
And yet everything relative to the economy and our world position has improved since he took office…I think you need to move away from your hatred and smell the coffee. Obama took over from the “unmitigated disaster” and has improved tremendously from that position. A vote for Romney is a vote for the same tired policies that got us to this point in the first place.
fair and balanced
June 13th, 2012
10:18 am
Mr. Liberty – if you check your facts the loss of public jobs was across the board and includes soldiers, firemen, police and teachers- all welfare cheats according to you? How many jobs will Romney provide these people?
Dusty
June 13th, 2012
10:30 am
MarkV
I cannot understand why you ;continually want the government to control almost every facet of your life. What happened to your independence? Are you afraid to be responsible for anything in your life?
We have government food stamps, government protection, government aid to elders, disabled and low income people, financial controls. Now you want the government to be the total health provider. Is there anything in your life that you want to control yourself? Or is it your conscience that demands that everyone should be cared for from cradle to grave? Not by you but the government?
This country was founded on independence. It depended on the strength of each citizen to be as independent as possible. That independence is what we value because it is freedom, the very goal of people around the world still wish they could get.
I think you need to get more practical. Being in debt is not healthy. No matter how you put it, that applies to the USA also. …
GT
June 13th, 2012
10:33 am
So easy to frame the subject and it needs to be for the right wing constituency. I am proud K left out Bible verses which has been a right’s technique to shortcut an explanation into a code.
The truth which I can never figure with the right if it is just too complicated to understand or they don’t want to hear it, is big business has made government it’s b….. This economic hardship we are in are a direct result of too big to fail business. It was another 9/11 caused by the Bush administration. There was no preventative measures as there never is when the right come to office. The country has a substitute teacher, anything goes except being a minority or any subject of a bully’s attention. It is like the cattle drive coming into Dodge City.
Why is your answer to crime more police, and prison and prison time and laws, yet you answer to big business less government. If a government agency had been looking at the mortgage markets the way we are looking into inside trading right now where we see unusual activity or guidelines that gain unearned and unethical profit to a very defined individual, this crisis would have been stopped. If the CIA and airport security had been doing their job instead of chasing ghost 9/11 would have never happen. We keep having to blame Bush because you have about a one minute memory retention. And I haven’t mentioned Bush’s balancing our budget. Too much information, I remember we have to keep this things simple for the right.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 13th, 2012
10:33 am
JDW: I think Luckovich has the Repugs pegged this morning….
———
The only thing missing is any basis in reality.
Note that unemployment came down once Americans, er, Republicans won control of the House.
Obozo’s unemployment rate is still higher than at any point in Our President Bush’s eight years, and higher than when he took office.
Want more jobs? Elect more Republicans and end the Democrat obstruction.
md
June 13th, 2012
10:34 am
“And yet everything relative to the economy and our world position has improved since he took office…”
And there is a big difference between “improvement” and “rate of improvement”…….with all the bogus jobs numbers, the current rate should get the unemployed back to work in about 30 years…….
Dusty
June 13th, 2012
10:39 am
JDW, 10:13
Luckovich is a public menace. I’ve known that ever since he cartoooned an American soldier being roasted on a spit and, at another time, Uncle Sam locked in prison.
I regard his cartoons with the same respect he gives to this country.
md
June 13th, 2012
10:40 am
“If the CIA and airport security had been doing their job instead of chasing ghost 9/11 would have never happen. We keep having to blame Bush because you have about a one minute memory retention.”
Just Bush?? It’s always interesting to see folks make these kind of comments evidently not aware that the hijackers first came into the country under Clinton……look it up.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 13th, 2012
10:46 am
Unemployment is worse thanks to Obozo.
The deficit is worse.
Government spending is worse.
The number of folks on welfare is worse.
The number of jobs is worse.
Remind us again what’s better?
GT
June 13th, 2012
10:50 am
md, mad dog?
You find me interesting that is the first step to rehabilitation. Clinton’s planes never ended up in the Trade Center. You find that interesting or have we gone back to being MD?
md
June 13th, 2012
10:55 am
“Clinton’s planes never ended up in the Trade Center”
Well, if you want to play that game…..his pilots sure did……..
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
11:02 am
Dusty @10:30 am
Dusty,
I cannot understand why you continually distort what I write. I have written about universal health care, something, as I mentioned, people in all developed countries have adopted as the fairest, most efficient way of dealing with illnesses and injuries. How has that issue morphed in your mind into controlling “almost every facet of your life?” How does universal health care develop into taking care from cradle to grave? It is this kind of exaggeration that makes a serious discussion impossible.
As one can expect, you almost cannot write a post without mentioning the debt. “Being in debt is not healthy.” Nobody argues that it is, but most people, and almost all countries are in debt. Have you been without debt throughout your life? No mortgage, for instance? If you have, you were an exception. And countries, including the US, have been” in debt” virtually all the time. To forestall, if it is even possible, an accusation from you that I am in favor of our huge national debt, I state that I am concerned about it, but not to the “sky is falling” extent. I wonder if you even know to whom the US is in debt? Does the US owe you some of that money?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 13th, 2012
11:05 am
I think Republicans have luckobich pegged-
Mike Luckovich
6/13 Mike Luckovich cartoon: Economic policies
Comments Off
She’s a koward!
td
June 13th, 2012
11:13 am
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
10:02 am
I stated this to you yesterday but I will ask it as a question today. How much of our economy should the government be? I personally think 20% is to large for the Federal government. The bigger our government gets the more dependent the population becomes on the government for subsistence. The Federal government has one key role Constitutionally and it is to protect the people from other countries and to solve problems between the states. Why is the Federal government in the business of providing basic needs to the population?
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 13th, 2012
11:15 am
We have lost 39% of our net worth and suffered through 40 straight months of over 8% unemployment after spending a huge sum of money on the stimulus, which totally failed. JDW, says things are better. I would hate to see how awful things would have to get if this is better.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 13th, 2012
11:18 am
If Oblamer was as tenacious in keeping our nations secrets secured, as he is in securing his education records, we would know a lot more about our President and he would have one less scandal on his record.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
11:18 am
“580,000 public sector jobs lost under Obama while fighting two wars and several million private sector jobs created.”
“fair and balanced”, please tell us where the role of the Federal government is to provide funding for local teachers, police and firefighters.
And he wasn’t fighting two wars, but withdrawing from one (slower than he should have), and he didn’t create several million new jobs, either. His stimulus MAY have saved a couple of million, but it didn’t create anywhere near that many.
Historical context AND accuracy might help you in your attempts to provide some semblance of cogent commentary.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 13th, 2012
11:21 am
Any gov job the stimulus saved was a temporary reprieve, which left us a Trillion dollars in debt.
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
11:23 am
Dusty @10:30 am
To be sure, you are not the only one with the predilection for silly exaggeration on this blog. Just recently, when I disputed that the private sector could exist without the public sector (a government), something that simple common sense should tell every intelligent person, I was told by some of the luminaries on this blog that a) I loathed the private sector, b) that I wanted free lunch.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
11:23 am
“And yet everything relative to the economy and our world position has improved since he took office”
Being the tallest of the midgets does not make us qualified for the NBA, JDW. And the campaign slogan of “At least we didn’t suck as bad as we could” isn’t exactly inspiring to many people.
If this disaster of a President knew anything about how an economy worked, we wouldn’t be heading into a second recession as we are now doing.
And btw, remember what I said about retail slowing down? May was down 2% (as predicted) which is the next sign that we are heading towards a double-dip recession.
I’ll remind you again when we enter it as to who told you so, JDW, don’t worry.
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
11:24 am
td @11:13 am
Are you serious? “How much of our economy should the government be?” This is, in my view, one of the silliest parts of the discussions on this blog, that people ask such silly questions, and g such silly answers. “I personally think 20% is to large for the Federal government.” You can “personally think” that, but is there any value in that thought? Why 20%, rather than 19%, 19.5%, 20.5%, 21%, etc.? So many people here think they can decide some of these very complex issues by “personal opinion.”
td
June 13th, 2012
11:25 am
GT
June 13th, 2012
10:33 am
A little re writing history there my friend. It has been well documented that the Bush administration went to Congress in 2006 and told them about the problems in the mortgage market and asked them to change the laws before we had major problem. Barney Frank and Chris Dodd basically said they did not know what they were talking about and did nothing.
The private industry was playing within the rules written by the politicians. Private industry is going to find a way to make a profit or they are not going to do business. It was the Congress (both Democrats and Republicans) that wrote the laws and regulations that allowed them to write no down payment, no verification and no risk loans.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
11:29 am
MaryV, td asks a very good question, one that is only dismissed by those who cherish the interference of government in the daily lives of our citizens.
And as usual, you avoid answering the tough questions while running and hiding.
JDW
June 13th, 2012
11:34 am
@Rafe…”We have lost 39% of our net worth and suffered through 40 straight months of over 8% unemployment after spending a huge sum of money on the stimulus, which totally failed.”
Indeed from 2007 to 2010 we lost 40% of our net worth due to the Duhbya debacle. Thank goodness that free fall has been at least arrested (in summer of 2009…you can thank the stimulus for most of that) and we are growing again.
My, my my you love those unemployment percentages…of course what you fail to point out is that Duhbya left an economy that was losing 700,000+ plus jobs a month. A situation that starting improving when some stimulus was applied and has now turned into average gains in the 150,000 a month range. Pssst…..that’s an improvement of 850,000+ jobs a MONTH.
As for “hating to see how awful things would be”…electing Romney to do the same things that got us here in the first place might well give you that chance. Thankfully I don’t think that will happen.
JDW
June 13th, 2012
11:43 am
@Tiberus…”And btw, remember what I said about retail slowing down? May was down 2% (as predicted) which is the next sign that we are heading towards a double-dip recession.”
Of course rational people would at this point apply stimulus to forestall that event and seek to create an environment of stability by say taking the potential of US debt default off the table. Of course as we all know Republicans aren’t rational. Which leaves us with having to rely on QE3 and a continued Republican induced haze of uncertainty.
Hopefully that will be enough and the American Voter will remove the Republican antagonists in November.
DawgDad
June 13th, 2012
11:47 am
“In the view of Obama partisans, it’s the difference between a government that keeps its promise to senior citizens counting on Medicare and one that doesn’t”
They have been CUTTING Medicare. They will ultimately breach their promises.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
11:47 am
“Of course rational people would at this point apply stimulus to forestall that event”
You consider doing a fifth round of a failed policy “rational”?
Never mind.
You would . . .
GT
June 13th, 2012
11:54 am
td to me that shows the lack of real leadership on Bush’s part. If his children were headed towards the waterfalls do you think he would make weak comments and let happen what happens? He knew in 2007, or maybe even before? One of the problems with the Republican Party leading this country is I don’t think they are effected by this, or at least the people pulling the GOP strings are not as much as the rest of America. A weak protest on something their contributors are getting rich off of makes a lot of sense and is probably the real reason it was allowed to happen. The GOP is real good at allowing lives and money and just about everything to be sacrificed for the good of the few. The world is like a scifi movie with these guys in office, usually because they left the door open to let whatever into the house. They are very unsuccessful at what they try to accomplish, like Homeland Security, Iraq War, finding those weapons, but while chasing the nonsense the door is open for 9/11, market collapse and floods in NO. And this is what you people want, life is not exciting enough for ya?
JDW
June 13th, 2012
11:55 am
@Tiberuis…”You consider doing a fifth round of a failed policy “rational”?”
Nope, I would do a new round of what has worked so far…some us can actually use our critical thinking skills to understand that concept…others drive around in RV’s.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
11:57 am
Floods in New Orleans, GT? Really?
You’re going to blame the corruption of Louisiana officials and their lack of preparedness in dealing with a hurricane on the Bush administration?
Really?
Are you THAT clueless?
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
12:02 pm
“Nope, I would do a new round of what has worked so far”
Define “worked”.
Is it defined as the weakest recovery in the history of the United States? Or maybe defined as the largest increase in this nations debt in history?
Oh, right. You define “worked” as “We didn’t suck at this as bad as we might have”.
Got it.
DawgDad
June 13th, 2012
12:03 pm
JDW: “electing Romney to do the same things that got us here in the first place”
This plays right into Kyle’s point. What got us here in the first place? FDR-Johnson-Carter government expansion. Nixon’s black mark on the GOP. Backboning and funding the defense of the Western world. Reagan compromise on spending and debt. NAFTA/globilization. “Read my lips . . .”. Clinton’s predatory behavior. Bush’s wars (the cost) and failure to check spending. Bush-Obama bailouts. QE. Obamacare, Obama’s massive debt expansion and union cronyism. We may ultimately add Romney to the list, but Obama is already ON the list.
fair and balanced
June 13th, 2012
12:05 pm
Tiberius- If you were capable of doing elementary research instead of blabbering nonsense and political gibberish you would find the following just as to federal employees under Obama and Reagan: 2.65 million under Obama and 2.77 million under Reagan. The population increased nearly 25% during that time. Just some facts and historical context.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2010/09/how_many_federal_workers_are_t.html
GT
June 13th, 2012
12:29 pm
How much money was wasted in NO? Did I read about mobile homes being stacked up in waiting yards never being used, supplies, and on and on. NO was not this country’s and certainly not W’s finest moment.
And the blame game. Here you are again blaming someone else for your failure. I think the man that killed BL could have found a way to save NO. I think the man that got the hardest bit of legislation through the Congress in years could have stopped the mortgage disaster. Some of this is because O wants to stop something. When things go well in this country you ever notice they don’t go well for Republicans. Any bad news right now is good news for the GOP and it really is that way when they are in office. War makes their cronies money, oil prices make them rich. They have become the creator of bad outcomes like that is what their jobs are in Washington.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
12:45 pm
fair and balanced, if you are going to spout non-related and nonsensical facts when your cherished notions are debunked, rather than to defend them, then you need to go over to Bookman’s blog. They specialize in deflection, lies and nonsense.
You’d fit right in there.
Once again, data in a vacuum is not a substitute for an intelligent argument.
Come back when you can make one.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
12:47 pm
GT, are you off your meds again today?
You don’t like the blame game when it is focused on the actual problem in New Orleans, but you engage in it when the subject is GWB.
Pathetic.
GT
June 13th, 2012
12:54 pm
Fair and balanced? The Republican Party is like Jerry Sandusky trying explaining away his personality, like nothing is really wrong. I have come to a conclusion you people are really the same kind of sick and you facilitate each other. That is why you have to have FOX and never want to hear the truth. You make up lies and then reenforce each other. Why not get me off your blog Tiberius, just like Sandusky you have a problem with the truth, it doesn’t feed your sickness.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 13th, 2012
1:02 pm
At some point in your lifetime, GT, you need to understand the concept of “cause and effect”, especially as regards New Orleans and Katrina.
td
June 13th, 2012
1:32 pm
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
11:24 am
td @11:13 am
“Are you serious? “How much of our economy should the government be?” This is, in my view, one of the silliest parts of the discussions on this blog, that people ask such silly questions”
You can call it a silly question if you want but both political parties and the media is framing this election to be about what should the size and scope of the Federal government be.
I was asking for an honest opinion from you but it appears you do not want to give such an opinion. So be it.
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
1:38 pm
td @1:32 pm
“I was asking for an honest opinion from you but it appears you do not want to give such an opinion. So be it.”
I have given you my opinion – that it is ridiculous for one person here to put a number on this. What kind of complex, serious analysis have you performed to arrive at that specific number? The debate between the parties is about larger/smaller, and what should and should not be included, but not about specific numbers.
fair and balanced
June 13th, 2012
1:46 pm
Tiberius – I voted for McCain. The more I listen to demagogues and the flip flopper spouting nonsense like you which is unrelated to reality, the better Obama looks. At least he has a track record in managing this country so as to judge his accomplishments. All I see on the other side is a moderate Republican trying desperately to change his image into a”severely conservative” partisan with no idea how the federal government works. Kind like him saying that eating grits and saying y’all makes him a Southerner.
I can see why Bookman has no use for your nonsense.
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
2:15 pm
td @1:32 pm
If you still do not understand here is an example. People and the parties may debate about the DOD budget. Some may say that it should be lower than now, that many military bases abroad should be closed, the war in Afghanistan quickly ended, some nuclear weapons destroyed, etc. Others might argue that the budget should be increased, to make sure that the US can project its power and wage more wars at the same time, if necessary, etc.
And then you would write, for example: “I think the DOD budget should be 680 billion. How much do you think it should be?” And my answer would be the same as about the percentage of spending, in essence: “What the hell are you talking about? How could I know? Why 680 and not 700 or 650?”
td
June 13th, 2012
2:23 pm
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
2:15 pm
I see your point but without getting consensus on actual money amount (could be a % of GDP) then all anyone is doing is talking in generalities and that has not gotten us anywhere. My point is that the American people are divided because they only talk in generalities and not about specifics, so how is the debate about actual money going to hurt the situation we are already in?
Dusty
June 13th, 2012
3:23 pm
MarkV
You obviously cannot give a straight answer. For instance, If you don’t think universal healthcare is for all from “cradle to grave”, then you have difficulty in comprehension. Universal!! One & all.
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Perhaps that is why you can find no one on this blog whom you think gives “straight” answers.
Seems the only answer you expect is someone to say “I’m not sure.” since I doubt that the president or any other “high” official is blogging away here with “absolute” facts..
Maybe “I’m not sure” will work but I may try it. (’That’s my opinion!)
md
June 13th, 2012
3:54 pm
“Just recently, when I disputed that the private sector could exist without the public sector (a government), something that simple common sense should tell every intelligent person”
And the operative word there is “could”……as the private sector doesn’t “need” the public sector to exist (operative word there is “need”)
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
6:23 pm
Dusty @3:23 pm
“If you don’t think universal healthcare is for all from “cradle to grave”, then you have difficulty in comprehension. Universal!! “
Dusty,
You are the one who has difficulty in comprehension. “Universal!! So you think that “universal” means “cradle to grave?” Think again or educate yourself.
The expression “from cradle to grave” in a pejorative sense generally is used to signify all kinds of social program together, not an individual one. But when it comes to health insurance, what do you have against “cradle to grave?” You mean health insurance should be limited to a certain age only? That applies to any health insurance, whether it is universal or not. Why don’t you think before you write?
As far as the loss of individual liberty is concerned, I wish you explained what individual liberty you will lose if everybody were guaranteed health care in case of illness or injury.
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
6:27 pm
md @3:54 pm
If you fail to understand what I wrote, that your “could” would have a meaning only in an insane, fantasy world, there is no point arguing with you further. Except perhaps, as a last resort, to point out that “private sector’ cannot exist without a “public sector” simply by definition.
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
6:51 pm
td @2:23 pm
My view is that generalities are the only thing the public can debate. Or, perhaps, I should say “principles” instead of “generalities.”
md
June 13th, 2012
7:30 pm
“Except perhaps, as a last resort, to point out that “private sector’ cannot exist without a “public sector” simply by definition.”
And that definition must be coming out of thin air.
There is a difference between “need” a gov’t and “choose” a gov’t…….I could run a private community right now and never “need” to get a gov’t involved……it all depends on the individuals.
Your whole concept of needing a gov’t displays your need for dependence……and not much else.
Military is countered with volunteer army. Same with every other branch of gov’t…….it all depends on the individuals involved, hence the two extremes in this country……one for very limited gov’t and one for a nanny state…………
MarkV
June 13th, 2012
7:43 pm
md @7:30 pm
“And that definition must be coming out of thin air.”
No, it does not. Apparently, however, you have not figured it out yet. Keep trying.
“…….I could run a private community right now and never “need” to get a gov’t involved……”
Again, you are simply writing nonsense. Even apart from the above (definition), we do not talk about “private sector” and “public sector” when we talk about individual units of each. Those are parts of the ECONOMY, of a state, of a country, etc. It would be the same nonsense to call one firefighter “public sector.” If you want to argue further your point, then show me any such entity that has something that can be called economy, which does not have some form of government. Or could not have it.
md
June 14th, 2012
10:39 am
“It would be the same nonsense to call one firefighter “public sector.””
Your problem seems to lie in funding, which is the determining factor……privat sector is funded with private funds…….public sector is also funded with private funds…….that is where you seem to be missing the mark. There is a difference between a public servant fireman and a privately paid fireman.
Just as TSA duties used to be ALL private……or secuirty in Iraq is private…….there is a difference that you can’t seem to comprehend.