2012 Tuesday: The one thing both sides agree on
There has been one consistent message from both President Obama and Mitt Romney (and, before him, the other GOP candidates) about what’s at the heart of this 2012 election. Everything else revolves around that one thing: the size and scope of government.
In a recent column, the Wall Street Journal’s Gerald Seib put the difference between the two men’s plans — Obama’s for Washington to spend 22.5 percent of GDP in the coming years, vs. Romney’s to reduce spending levels to 20 percent — at $6 trillion over 10 years:
In the view of Obama partisans, it’s the difference between a government that keeps its promise to senior citizens counting on Medicare and one that doesn’t, and the difference between a country that invests in the education, infrastructure and basic research needed to be competitive, and one that falls behind the Chinese and the other roaring new economic powers.
In the eyes of Romney partisans, it’s the difference between a country that trims spending close to the average of recent decades rather than one that eats up resources on government programs, and between a nation that relies on the private sector for a new wave of economic growth and one that slides toward European socialism and declining personal freedom.
Neither side shies away from such dramatic descriptions. Mr. Obama plans a speech Thursday in Cleveland that aides say will help frame the election as a choice between fundamentally different views. Mr. Romney’s economic manifesto’s conclusion is entitled simply, “A Stark Choice.”
This is why it wasn’t surprising to hear Obama last week emphasize the public sector in his remarks about the economy and what’s holding back growth. In his view, government makes choices and “investments” that direct and drive economic growth. (It hasn’t happened yet on his watch, but that apparently is still George Bush’s fault.)
And that’s why it isn’t surprising to hear Romney talk about the morality of capitalism and dispute the idea that we’ll revive the economy by borrowing (more) money to hire more teachers, firefighters and police officers.
This is the whole shooting match. Every other issue is an offshoot of, or distraction from, this fundamental disagreement.
The electorate has split sharply in each direction in recent years — toward bigger government in 2008, and toward smaller government in 2010. It’s hard to say if either side can earn such a clear victory this fall. But the key, as a recent Democratic strategy memo by James Carville’s group makes clear, will be arguing for a brighter future.
In my view, the side that better makes the case for itself, rather than against the other, wins the election. Neither side is really moving in that direction yet. There may be a first-mover advantage to the one that gets there the quickest.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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216 comments Add your comment
Don't Tread
June 12th, 2012
4:06 pm
Germany: 0 – 45% personal income tax, and 19% VAT on top of that.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
4:08 pm
“If the GOP policies are so great and yeild great results why did McCain lost ? ”
If the GOP policies stayed the same, I might agree with you, Jefferson.
Alas, their policies change as the circumstances warrant them to. Tough for you, fella.
Obama’s don’t, even when they fail.
td
June 12th, 2012
4:08 pm
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
3:45 pm
Germany:
Government spending: 47.5% GDP
GDP growth; 3.5%
This means that the average tax rate is 47.5% and if their poor pays nothing then the middle class is paying more then 50% taxes. I do not know about you but I do not want to live in a country that the government is getting 50% + of my money and making all the decisions on the winners and losers. If you do then it just proves you are not in favor of personal freedom.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
4:10 pm
In case you missed it, MaryV, Germany is Germany and we are the United States of America.
Generally, we do not follow, but lead.
Except for these past 3 1/2 years.
Don't Tread
June 12th, 2012
4:13 pm
“Finn, maybe people are asking gov’t to perform more due diligence in selecting which enterprises to take a chance on.”
But…they DID exercise due diligence. They checked the Democrat supporter list before investing.
Kyle Wingfield
June 12th, 2012
4:17 pm
Finn @ 4:05: Leonard is cherry-picking lines from Seib’s article in order to create some of those “holes.”
Seib writes, as I mentioned in an earlier comment, that Romney’s “economic platform proclaims that ‘as president, Mitt Romney will immediately move to cut spending and cap it at 20% of GDP,’ and then go lower.” Seib also cites Romney’s endorsement of the House GOP budget, which does specify a path of reducing spending to an average of 20% of GDP over the next the decade.
Neither Seib’s column nor this post judges the feasibility of Romney’s plan or the likelihood it would come to pass as advertised (neither does either of us examine Obama’s plan in that way). We only looked at what the two men are selling. If you want to judge the specificity or feasibility of either man’s plan, be my guest. But it’s not really in dispute that they are selling different notions of the proper size and scope of government.
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
4:18 pm
td @ 4:08 pm
As usual, you are missing the point, just as all the other hypocrites on this blog. When it had suited them, they praised the German economic policy and results.
md
June 12th, 2012
4:20 pm
“it is the fact that Romney’s recipe had been tried by Bush, and in 2008 we saw the result.”
Please………2008 was the culmination of many bad policies from both “sides”, the least of which was getting away from the basic ratios used for decades to qualify for mortgages…..to lay it at the feet of Bush is intellectually dishonest at best.
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
4:28 pm
md @4:20 pm
“Please………2008 was the culmination of many bad policies from both “sides”, the least of which was getting away from the basic ratios used for decades to qualify for mortgages…..to lay it at the feet of Bush is intellectually dishonest at best.”
And Romney’s plans, with the emphasis on deregulation, would be a renewal of those bad policies.
Rafe Hollister
June 12th, 2012
4:31 pm
they praised the German Economic policy and results.
Not quite, Mark, they praised Merkel’s austerity measures. Big difference!
You are the one always complaining about non specific language.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
4:32 pm
Romney is selling lies with his promise of tax cuts going deeper than Shrub’s tax cuts. They aren’t interested in reducing the deficit – that’s only a part of the discussion when the other party is in the White House.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
June 12th, 2012
4:33 pm
On the myth of German austerity:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/28/euro-austerity-continued/
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
4:42 pm
Romney is compared to Bush, which he is not. Different people, different era.
But, the same people will not compare Oblamer I to Oblamer II.
According to them, we are supposed to believe the promises that Oblamer I failed to keep, will be kept by Oblamer II.
This time he is going to create jobs.
This time he is going to revive the economy.
This time the stimulus is going to work.
This time green energy will become economical.
This time he is going to cut the deficit in half by the end of his second term.
He is going to have the most transparent administration, except for his justice department, I guess.
He is going to close Gitmo, I’m sure.
He is not going to hire lobbyist for his WH, in the second term, I’m sure.
He is going to be post racial and post partisan in the second term, after just being post logical in the first term.
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
4:46 pm
Rafe Hollister @ 4:31 pm
You have not paid attention.
Martin Williams
June 12th, 2012
5:04 pm
Kyle, you really need to stop writing/or make nonsense statements like the scope and size of government. Kyle, do you really know the meaning of goernment? You as a writer need to start telling these idiot GOP governors to stop laying off teachers especially. We currently ranked about 30TH in the industralized world when it comes to education. Governments just have to be reasonable in terms of spending but governments are NOT like a business in for profit. Do you know the United States government has over 270 military installations all over the world and you expect it to keep a surplus every budget year…….oh, another one for you Kyle, do you know the United States government has being in wars for than 50 years and counting? You all need to wake up fools. Now I understand why Jessie Ventura former governor of Minesota call the Democratic party the Crips and the Republican party the Bloods as continue to behave like gang members. For me both parties are the same. Both parties have sold out to Coporations and Lobbyist for the past 100 years. You all think about it especially you Kyle. This is not personal Kyle but try to be sensible sometimes when you write.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
5:06 pm
When it had suited them, they praised the German economic policy and results.
I knew it was a waste of energy, but, I was responding to the inaccurate and simplistic statement above from your post at 4:18, Mark. No conservative has ever praised Germany’s socialistic economic structure, only Merkel’s decision to embrace austerity, which was brilliant. If, only we had taken the same route, maybe Oblamer would be looking at better prospects for reelection.
md
June 12th, 2012
5:08 pm
“And Romney’s plans, with the emphasis on deregulation, would be a renewal of those bad policies.”
If anything, Romney (as a businessman) knows what those ratios are and why they are necessary……so I’d guess your speculation is unwarranted.
Skip
June 12th, 2012
5:08 pm
Romney, is he the guy that lost to the guy that lost to Obama? Is that the guy your running? That’s the best you can come up with, think about that for a second.
Jefferson
June 12th, 2012
5:09 pm
No reason at all to think the GOP has changed. NONE.
Jefferson
June 12th, 2012
5:10 pm
Rick Santorium thinks little of Romney.
1961_Xer
June 12th, 2012
5:12 pm
“I’m for cutting spending to 20% GDP and raising taxes to 20% GDP.”
Bingo.
carlosgvv
June 12th, 2012
5:14 pm
Don’t Tread – 2:50
Back at you.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
June 12th, 2012
5:15 pm
Jefferson consults with Santorum on who to vote for. Interesting.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
June 12th, 2012
5:32 pm
Kyle, you really need to stop writing/or make nonsense statements like the scope and size of government. Kyle, do you really know the meaning of goernment? You as a writer need to start telling these idiot GOP governors to stop laying off teachers especially
I guess you’re an educator tool. While much of the rest of the world is now spitting out smarter students than the good old U.S of.A, spending less money per student to do so, you have to ask yourself. Is black history month every year more or less important than math or science?? Or how about the wasted “field trips” to theme parks and such?
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
5:39 pm
No reason at all to think the Oblamer has changed. NONE.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
June 12th, 2012
5:40 pm
Skip
June 12th, 2012
5:08 pm
Romney, is he the guy that lost to the guy that lost to Obama? Is that the guy your running? That’s the best you can come up with, think about that for a second.
It took almost 8 years for Bush to “f” things up. The current idiot in chief needs to go back to his Ivy league school and scoop mashed potatoes in the lunch room for his primary job.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
5:41 pm
Bill Clinton thinks little of Oblamer.
Jefferson, you are just so stimulating.
JDW
June 12th, 2012
5:45 pm
@Kyle…”There has been one consistent message from both President Obama and Mitt Romney (and, before him, the other GOP candidates) about what’s at the heart of this 2012 election. Everything else revolves around that one thing: the size and scope of government.”
Yep same old song and dance. The Republicans frame a platform that is centered on “reducing the size and scope of government” and cutting taxes. Reagan started this fairy tale and every Republican since has repeated it. In practice what happens EVERY TIME as we have discussed ad nauseam is that Republicans spend more and cut taxes at the same time leading to increased deficits. Seems to me they bear more than a passing resemblance to the snake oil salesmen of old.
I believe that in the end this election will come down to the voting public checking the record….
Reagan cut taxes increased spending a medium amount
Bush 1 cut taxes increased spending some
Clinton RAISED taxes increased spending less
Duhbya cut taxes increased spending by a bunch
And choosing not to poke themselves in the eye with the same stick yet again.
PS as of now Obama is on the fence…cut taxes and slowdown in spending, but at least he has a coherent spending plan versus a fairy tale and maybe just maybe he will do the right thing and generate some tax revenue.
BTW since I have other things to do later…Tiberuis you are a moron… we had this discussion just the other day. Spending, in constant 2005 dollars DECREASED more than $90 Billion from Bush’s last budget year to Obama’s first and is on track to increase for the entire term about as much as Reagan did….see spending in 2005 dollars below (totals are in last budget year)…
Reagan 1,451.7 35.7
Reagan 1,498.6 46.9
Reagan 1,500.4 1.8
Reagan 1,612.2 111.8
Reagan 1,644.6 32.4
Reagan 1,616.0 -28.6
Reagan 1,663.2 47.2
Reagan 1,723.3 60.1 307.3
Bush 1 1,831.3 108.0
Bush 2 1,848.2 16.9
Bush 3 1,857.1 8.9
Bush 4 1,844.7 -12.4 121.4
Clinton 1,878.4 33.7
Clinton 1,895.9 17.5
Clinton 1,906.1 10.2
Clinton 1,915.4 9.3
Clinton 1,958.1 42.7
Clinton 1,988.6 30.5
Clinton 2,039.9 51.3
Clinton 2,071.7 31.8 227.0
Duhbya 2,200.6 128.9
Duhbya 2,303.2 102.6
Duhbya 2,377.2 74.0
Duhbya 2,472.0 94.8
Duhbya 2,564.3 92.3
Duhbya 2,564.1 -0.2
Duhbya 2,703.8 139.7
Duhbya 3,173.4 469.6 1,101.7
Obama 3,081.0 -92.4
Obama 3,126.3 45.3
Obama (Projected) 3,212.5 86.2
Obama (Projected) 3,157.4 -55.1
Obama (Projected) 3,165.0 7.6
Obama (Projected) 3,246.6 81.6
Obama (Projected) 3,395.7 149.1
Obama (Projected) 3,484.1 88.4 310.7
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals
I demand to see Cheesy Grits Birth Certificate- Long Form Please
June 12th, 2012
5:46 pm
God help us if Cheesy Grits does get elected.
The last Republican administration ended with w saying ” This sucker could go down ”
If Cheesy Grits wins it might just happen this time.
Not thanks.
Thank god Obama looks pretty safe. Especially with the electoral map.
Cheesy Grits would have to win almost all the toss ups.
Not gonna happen.
td
June 12th, 2012
6:00 pm
Martin Williams
June 12th, 2012
5:04 pm
” We currently ranked about 30TH in the industralized world when it comes to education”
And we spend more on a per pupil bases then any other country in the world. What does this tell you?
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
6:03 pm
http://www.businessinsider.com/barack-obama-african-american-vote-black-north-carolina-2012-6
I constantly hear the Obamabots on here trumping the old outdated map that Karl Rove has posted online. I think he has NC in the yellow, or swing states. Just to show how unreliable this map is, this Dem leaning poll firm now shows Romney getting 20% of the black vote in NC. One of the pollsters reports he has never seen such a drastic shift in such a short time. Obama has gone from up by 5 to down by 2 in about a month.
Now,we know what Spike Lee says he is so worried about the outcome.
td
June 12th, 2012
6:04 pm
Martin Williams
June 12th, 2012
5:04 pm
Since the Dems and the Reps are wrong then please enlighten all of us to what we should do? Who should we support? What is an acceptable platform and what should the planks look like? I for one wait patiently for your response since I am one of the many fools that wants to know what I should be doing.
md
June 12th, 2012
6:10 pm
” We currently ranked about 30TH in the industralized world when it comes to education”
And 1/3 of students are currently choosing to drop out of said system and costing society 300 billion annually……..and the enablers have nothing more to say than “poor thing”.
After putting themselves on the hard road in life they then turn to other assistance programs after spurning the first one……and folks wonder why we are in such sad shape.
MarkV
June 12th, 2012
6:11 pm
Rafe Hollister @ 5:06 pm
MarkV: “When it had suited them, they praised the German economic policy and results.”
Rafe: “I knew it was a waste of energy, but, I was responding to the inaccurate and simplistic statement above from your post at 4:18, Mark. No conservative has ever praised Germany’s socialistic economic structure,”
I know it is a waste of energy, but I will point out that the above quote shows that I wrote about Germany economic policy and results, and not about German economic structure. I won’t even spend much time correcting the usual nonsense about “socialistic structure.” There is a capitalist economy and socialist economy. Germany has a capitalistic, not socialistic economy.
The main point of my original post, which apparently but no surprisingly, escaped you and others, is that Kyle and the Republicans are in arms about the unbelievable, impossible, ridiculous idea of spending “22.5 percent of GDP in the coming years, vs. Romney’s to reduce spending levels to 20 percent” which, according to them, would “hold back the growth” of the economy, when the data show that other developed, industrial, capitalistic countries can have a good growth at much higher spending percentage. And then there are the idiots here who respond to this not by an argument, but by making stupid accusations, as if I had advocated the US to spend that high percentage.
md
June 12th, 2012
6:15 pm
“Up to 7.5 million students miss nearly a month of school each year, making them much more likely to drop out before they graduate, according to a new national report.
What’s more startling is that only six states track chronic absenteeism in schools, according to a study by Johns Hopkins University researchers released Thursday at events in Philadelphia and Washington, D.C.”
It’s not the schools……….it’s the students (and parents).
md
June 12th, 2012
6:21 pm
The other side of the “selfish” argument:
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-6528227.html
td
June 12th, 2012
6:21 pm
md
June 12th, 2012
6:15 pm
“Up to 7.5 million students miss nearly a month of school each year, making them much more likely to drop out before they graduate, according to a new national report.
What’s more startling is that only six states track chronic absenteeism in schools, according to a study by Johns Hopkins University researchers released Thursday at events in Philadelphia and Washington, D.C.”
It’s not the schools……….it’s the students (and parents).
Amen and until we (all Americans of both political parties) start to shame these parents publicly then nothing is going to change.
finn mccool
June 12th, 2012
6:42 pm
Ya’ll need to watch The Wire.
Season through season 5.
Martin Williams
June 12th, 2012
7:03 pm
You all know the GOP idiots are doing everything in their selfish power to make Obama a one term president and they all tell you how much they love this country. If any GOP politician walks by me tells me how much they love this country and simply tell them you are very big liar. What is the difference between a one term and a two term president? One term president like Jimmy Carter still has a favourable rating than George W Bush, even H. W. Bush got better rating than his son. At the end he is going to get a chance at a seconf term. George W Bush got a second chance even after the big lie to go to war in Iraq, Americans still voted for him………….WOW, shame to all who voted to give W. Bush a second term………results, serious deficit plus a big time recession. I truly believe Obama should give back the presidency to the GOP folks who wanted it so badly. I know who ever is in the White House come January, 2013 will enjoy an un-employment rate in double digits and hope I am wrong. It will have nothing to do with leadership, but just world events. Too many WARS period. Thank God we don’t have John McCain in the White House.
md
June 12th, 2012
7:06 pm
“Amen and until we (all Americans of both political parties) start to shame these parents publicly then nothing is going to change.”
As long as one side lumps them into the “poor, poor, pitiful poor” group and insists in throwing money at them, nothing will change. A short term feel good measure with terrible long term results…….
Tiberius - Banned by Bookman and proud of it!
June 12th, 2012
7:09 pm
Martin Williams, you’re a very bitter, brainwashed man. I prescribe a health dose of reality and a nice walk outside to put you in a better (and more realistic ) frame of mind.
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
7:20 pm
Martin Williams
Hey, you gotta even it up here. You said both Dems and Reps were bad, now you just posted a grievance list with the GOP, did you leave out a paragraph?
I guess, that was must have just been a throw away line, to try and get someone to read your pro-Oblamer drivel.
@@
June 12th, 2012
7:52 pm
In his view, government makes choices and “investments” that direct and drive economic growth.
Thomas Sowell made a similar observation:
It bothers me a little when conservatives call Barack Obama a “socialist.” He certainly is an enemy of the free market, and wants politicians and bureaucrats to make the fundamental decisions about the economy. But that does not mean that he wants government ownership of the means of production, which has long been a standard definition of socialism.
What President Obama has been pushing for, and moving toward, is more insidious: government control of the economy, while leaving ownership in private hands. That way, politicians get to call the shots but, when their bright ideas lead to disaster, they can always blame those who own businesses in the private sector.
Politically, it is heads-I-win when things go right, and tails-you-lose when things go wrong. This is far preferable, from Obama’s point of view, since it gives him a variety of scapegoats for all his failed policies, without having to use President Bush as a scapegoat all the time.–Thomas Sowell
Six months into his first year, the public grew tired of his blame game, and yet, he continues to this day. I thought he was smarter than that.
I was wrong!
schnirt
Rafe Hollister, suffering through Oblamer's ineptocracy
June 12th, 2012
8:11 pm
I thought he was smarter than that.
Guess we will never know, what with his education records all locked up tighter than he keeps classified information.
But as for Romney, two Harvard professional schools completed with honors in four years. Heard he wanted to go to business school, but his dad wanted him to be a lawyer, so he said what the heck, I’ll just do both. He lead a study group that still has yearly reunions, so we know with whom he associated and how he performed. The other candidate is a mystery once again.
From Wikipedia regarding Romney
In 1971, he earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in English from Brigham Young University and, in 1975, a joint Juris Doctor and Master of Business Administration from Harvard University as a Baker Scholar.
bluecoat
June 12th, 2012
8:54 pm
If Obama is re-elected.then Romney can pin a book on “How to get your money out of USA.For writing the book he would qualify.
Dusty
June 12th, 2012
9:02 pm
Well, as usual, nothing new here.
Liberals want the government to spend money its doesn’t have so borrow and spend anyway.
Conservatives say do not spend money you do not have. Borrowing is debt building.
Obama spends no matter what. Romney says that is bad business.
Maybe liberals will be so busy in bankruptcy court they won’t have time to vote. With their philosophy of spending without restraint, hey must all be in total debt just like the government.
Or could it be they don’t go into big debt with their personal finances? Just want the government to spend like a drunken sailor? A rich liberal has a broken standard.
killerj
June 12th, 2012
9:58 pm
If my ears have to listen to this idiot for 4 more year,s, I will claim exempt and pay the penalty,I,m through watching hard working people lose everything they have,guns & god my friend.
JKL2
June 12th, 2012
10:32 pm
-The one thing both sides agree on
Eric Holder is a joke. Any competent president would have gotten rid of him along time ago.
hryder
June 13th, 2012
6:37 am
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENT ELECTED OFFICE HOLDERS IN THE NOVEMBER ELECTIONS. The entertainer in chief definitely should be gone as he is an incompetent with a primary ability of telling and pitting voting groups against each other since their desires are diametrically opposite.
Baker
June 13th, 2012
7:11 am
I’m totally on board with hiring more teacher, firefighters, and police officers, it’s those other bureaucrats that make up the vast majority of govt workers that I want to get rid of.