The truth about how long T-SPLOST will tax us
The T-SPLOST faces a challenging road to passage as it is. Imagine if supporters had to drum up votes for it either without the two segments of the Beltline; or without a bus/light rail line into Cobb County; or without any of the interchange improvements at I-285 and Ga. 400, I-285 and I-20 west, and I-285 and I-85 north. All while no other projects were added to the list.
Or, instead, imagine if they were asking voters to approve the same project list, with the same 1 percent sales tax for the same 10 years — while, at the same time, they were asking for another tax increase of $600 million to $850 million during the same decade.
Say hello to the T-SPLOST renewal campaign, circa 2022.
One of the hottest — and most disingenuous — aspects of the T-SPLOST debate has been the back and forth about whether the tax being put to a regional referendum in July would last only 10 years.
On the anti-tax side, some people suggest politicians will double-cross the voters and keep the tax past its promised end date, a la the extension of the toll on Ga. 400. They’re wrong. The promise to end the 400 toll once the bonds were paid off was just that: a promise by politicians, the kind of pledge that is — or should be assumed to be — made to be broken. The expiration of the T-SPLOST, on the other hand, is written into the law.
The pro-tax side assures us that voters will have the chance to reject any extension of the tax. And, as I’ve just described, they technically are correct.
But this assurance isn’t worth much when we consider the implications of passing the T-SPLOST for the first 10 years. Pass the tax in July, and we will be paying it, or another tax, for decades.
That much is clear from new, rough estimates about how much of the $6.14 billion project list would go for preliminary work, how much for construction, and how much for operation and maintenance of new transit.
The Atlanta Regional Commission has been compiling these estimates during the past few months. (Amazingly, local elected officials didn’t go into this kind of detail when approving the list of projects and their price tags.)
About a quarter of the $3.2 billion allocated to transit, $767.9 million, is estimated for these projects’ operations and maintenance for 10 years, as required by law. Because the projects would be built in timeframes that vary, they do not cover the same 10 years. But, at some point, the O&M funding would run out.
Some of the $767.9 million is for bus services that come with minimal new construction. Depending on whether all those services were renewed, and applying a modest inflation rate, we’re talking about second-decade costs of $600 million to $850 million just to keep these new projects running.
It’s extremely unlikely that we would spend $2.4 billion on new infrastructure and then shut it down after 10 years. In that respect, the T-SPLOST is very different from a special sales tax for education, after which voters could decide they’ve built enough new schools.
So we are probably left with the two unpalatable options I described at the beginning of this column: getting fewer projects with a renewed T-SPLOST, or raising other taxes to fill the gap.
The latter option is far-fetched. We’ve never raised other taxes to cover what’s become a perennial budget shortfall at MARTA. And how would the burden for projects built regionally be allocated, if not on a regional basis? (That question is another reason it would have been good to have a new regional model for transit governance before voting on the T-SPLOST.)
That leaves us with having less money from a renewed T-SPLOST to spend on new construction.
What would $600 million to $850 million buy? On this project list, we’re talking about some of the headliners:
- two segments of the Beltline (total cost: $601.9 million);
- bus or light rail into Cobb ($689 million);
- improvements at I-285 and Ga. 400 ($450 million), I-285 and I-85 north ($53 million), and I-285 and I-20 west ($149 million).
Each of those possibilities is closer to $600 million than to $850 million. And, obviously, we would be talking about forgoing different projects, such as expanding transit up I-85 north or across the top end of I-285, or building the super-arterial roads needed to pull traffic away from the interstates.
It may be that this is a choice voters in metro Atlanta are willing to make. But, so far, it’s not how the choice has been framed.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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228 comments Add your comment
Road Scholar
May 31st, 2012
5:54 am
Finally someone may stop the whining about the Tsplost being like the SR400 tolls!. Kyle, when will you do a story about what the toll money will be used for? In addition to the Tsplost ending in 10 years, if approved, and the “loss” of future money if not renewed, isn’t that the same with the toll monies?
We have a funding deficit to cover our desired and needed transportation improvements here in the Metro region. Just what is your solution to fund these needs? Sell cookies? Wash cars?
We need billions to address not only today’s needs but what the future will bring us. If the powers behind implementing this tax do not complete projects on time, and on budget, voters will not approve an extension. If they do, another 10 years WILL BE VOTED ON and approved as they have done in Denver and other cities in need of transportation…INCLUDING TRANSIT.
Yes we are investing in planning and design of projects that may not be implemented in the initial 10 year period, but, if they are worth something, regular gas tax revenue or an extended Tsplost revenue may be used to implement them. Each year projects are conceptualized on paper to determine whether they are worth the time, effort, and scarce transportation funds. Why is it different with Tsplost? It isn’t.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
May 31st, 2012
6:09 am
About a quarter of the $3.2 billion allocated to transit, $767.9 million, is estimated for these projects’ operations and maintenance for 10 years
———————–
T-SPLOST is worse than I thought. We’re PLANNING to fail? I.e., to build transit that doesn’t pay for itself through fares?
T-SPLOST: A definite “NO” vote.
@@
May 31st, 2012
6:23 am
Each of those possibilities is closer to $600 million than to $850 million. And, obviously, we would be talking about forgoing different projects, such as expanding transit up I-85 north or across the top end of I-285, or building the super-arterial roads needed to pull traffic away from the interstates.
Are the politicians in the surrounding counties aware of this forgoing?
Puts me in mind of a project down my way. One of our politicians has made his bones on providing rec centers (FOR YOUTH). There’s a rec center going up for seniors (we already have three) provided by previous administrations. There’s no funds set aside to staff OR furnish the new center.
GREAT! We’re the recipients of an empty shell…
game.
jconservative
May 31st, 2012
6:25 am
Vote NO!
BlahBlahBlah
May 31st, 2012
7:29 am
Poorly conceived. Poorly planned. Poorly funded. NO is the way to go. People adapt. Cities adapt. We can live without T-SPLOST.
Buzz G
May 31st, 2012
7:38 am
More tax, more tax, more tax, it is never enough. We are taxed at the Federal level, at the State level, at the county level, at the city level. We have payroll taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, use taxes, and who knows what other taxes. Now they want to add taxes at a “regional” level and add a T-SPLOST tax. If they need to find money to build some new stuff, they can start out by cutting out the waste and abuse at the State level. And then here in Gwinnett they can cut out the huge bureaucracy at the county level. As far as a new tax goes, “Just say NO to T-SPLOST.
iggy
May 31st, 2012
7:41 am
The Beltline. What a silly idea and colossal waste of money.
JohnnyReb
May 31st, 2012
7:41 am
“…it would have been good to have a new regional model for transit governance before voting on the T-SPLOST.”
Bingo!
Plus, someone please tell me how the Beltline is a transit project?
laurie
May 31st, 2012
7:42 am
Stll voting NO.
Chris
May 31st, 2012
7:48 am
Road developers, engineering firms and asphalt salesmen who just happen to have the gutless politicians who passed this monstrosity on speed dial are spending millions to try and pass this thing.
They’re getting ready to have a big party with your tax dollars. I call it “grift-a-palooza”. Vote NO.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
May 31st, 2012
7:52 am
The way people and businesses are leaving Atlanta, I wouldn’t worry about it.
Well, I guess they do need a road to get out on.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward--Again)
May 31st, 2012
7:56 am
Don’t Democrats run Atlanta? Why don’t they already have all the transit they need? I’m shocked that they haven’t been able to get that done. Why don’t they just raise taxes (their own, I mean)?
mottlicher
May 31st, 2012
8:04 am
The amount of tax money collected by the gas tax for transportation has been slowly but surely getting smaller. The amount of people using the transportation infrastructure in this region has been growing. At this rate we are barely covering maintenance of the existing infrastructure.
We see complaints about tolls, Tsplost, no new taxes. If we are talking about new entitlement programs from DC, sure I am there with you. But we are not, we are talking about the roads, bridges, and rail that we use everyday around here. One way or another we will have to find a way to pay for both improvements and O&M of our infrastructure. This is not a perfectly designed program, but its the best shot we have had to move in the right direction in decades.
The politicians will not get back together to work on anything this size again. It will be a fight over dwindling dollars to get a few pet projects for those with the most power in the General Assembly.
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
8:21 am
More lies and deceit from government. Surprised? Vote No!
JDW
May 31st, 2012
8:23 am
@Kyle…why don’t you just buy a horse and buggy so you don’t need roads. Thats pretty much where your approach is headed.
“But, at some point, the O&M funding would run out.”
Really? Surely you jest. You mean we have to actually pay to keep operations going. Quick quiz…name one, just one, project or service that requires ongoing operations and yet needs no funding. Why on earth would this be surprise?
Kyle, the kind of thinking that went into this piece is the kind that has been in force over the last 10 years and is the reason the quality of our infrastructure and transportation systems have erroded over that time. You got a better idea lets hear it…whining that you might have to consider funding options in 2022 is a waste of time.
Ken
May 31st, 2012
8:23 am
You have to ask yourself 3 questions to vote for this tax- 1) do you trust the politicians? 2) do you trust DOT? and 3) do you trust the developers to stay within budget? Lastly, remember if you vote yes, you are telling the politicians you don’t feel you are being taxed enough and you believe they have been good stewards of your current tax money. Mass transit in Metro Atlanta is a joke- too widespread of a geographic area, unless you are talking about the few ITP residers, who will certainly vote for this bill…oh yeah, one last question- do you feel safe riding MARTA?
JohnnyReb
May 31st, 2012
8:27 am
“One way or another we will have to find a way to pay for both improvements and O&M of our infrastructure.”
Good point. How about public works? Every man and woman drawing any kind of entitlement check from the government (handicapped and elderly excluded) have to show up everyday for public work or they don’t get the check.
I predict in less than 6 months there would be enough entitlement money surplus to fund the transporation and infrastructure woes.
sirwinston
May 31st, 2012
8:27 am
We are the lowest thing on anyone list; whenever they start losing money, it is raising taxes for this, that, or for whatever. I never hear anything about them cutting those big “six-figures salaries” to save on their money issues. With all of the continuing about T-SPLOST, continuing to raise taxes for all of these projects that is on the books for starting, running and completing them; there has been nothing done that is solving traffic or highways problems here, at all! Reading a lot about the situation, what they have not told the public and what are they during that we are not aware of. Its been some behind the door working on things that has the project losing great deal of money. Is it profits that they want to make to keep the tax paying people locked into for years to come? To be honest, we have all of these major highways that are being refaced, redone, widing etc., but never take’s the traveling public nowhere, except right back into “back up” traffic over and over again. Would you all say that we have not moved forth in the last 5 years; “Grady Curve”, constantly a major tie-up; in fact, it has been a nightmare trying to move from point a to b with so much money being invested; you would think all of these major highways would be sent someplace else instead of being projected right back into one and other making getting to where a grave problem. We must stop the continuation of making tax payers pay for things that we are not getting. We must called upon those who can see right through all of the continuation of on mess over and over again and get things where they need to be. Mass-Transportation has not hit this state because they don’t know how to do it. Everything that is done, it is geard toward all of Atlanta major attractions and we all know what those are! It is a complete mess……..and that is why people do not want to leave their cars behind because good transportation Atlanta just don’t have!
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
8:44 am
A no vote is a vote to do nothing for another 40 years since the MARTA bill. This is the first time in decades this area worked as a REGION and came up with a way to fund projects for the entire region. Just because a project doesn’t go from Cobb to Fulton then to Clayton doesn’t make it non regional. They all are regional because we are working as ONE REGION to take care of problem areas within this ONE REGION!
The High Evolutionary
May 31st, 2012
8:51 am
If you have ever voted for a tax or sales-tax increase, you should commit suicide immediately.
Yes, that includes YOU, too.
The High Evolutionary
May 31st, 2012
8:51 am
PLEASE NOTE: You should also remove yourself from the gene pool with all due expedience if you ever use a smart phone or cell phone while behind the wheel of a moving motor vehicle.
Yes, that also includes YOU, too.
ragnar danneskjold
May 31st, 2012
9:04 am
Fortunately the government of Georgia can be trusted to remove taxes as agreed, as they did with the toll booths on 400. Oops, bad example.
Bob Loblaw
May 31st, 2012
9:04 am
Kyle, it seems like you are scared for Atlanta to grow. Fretting about what will happen ten years from now with all those buses to fill up? Atlanta will be a better place with increased productivity and, what do you know, a higher tax base if we improve the way we move around. Why be scared of how we’re going to run a train in ten years? It took three years to get a transportation Act through the General Assembly. I figure they can figure out how to fill the bus up in ten years.
iggy
May 31st, 2012
9:07 am
This is all nice and fine, however, Atlantas best days are behind it. The Detroit of the South, the cesspool that is Atlanta is in decline and thats ok by me.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
9:18 am
@ iggy
Do you live in the Atlanta metro area? Heck, do you even live in the state of Georgia? Don’t you know without Atlanta’s success the rest of this state is just backwoods and small unproductive towns. With the exception of Savannah, and the port is the only thing they have — and that’s to ship good to the Atlanta region!
iggy
May 31st, 2012
9:26 am
Stop the govt waste and their will be no need for TSplost. Govt waste is the problem, not lack of funds.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
9:27 am
It’s time we take care of our region. The Atlanta metro area is our home. Would you just let your actual home go down and decay? Would you want your neighbor to do that. We someone doesn’t invest in their home it brings the whole neighborhood down. Not investing in the entire Atlanta region will do the same for the region. If you have too many bad looking homes in an area would you move yourself or family to that neighborhood. The same for the Atlanta region; do you think major companies and high paying jobs are going to want to move here if we don’t invest? When a neighborhood goes down then it turns into a slum and doesn’t come back to life until others reinvest in the area. Same for ATL. Jobs will leave and the quality of life goes down. Then Atlanta is going to have to reinvest anyway to bring itself back. No investment in our transportation structure means no investment in jobs and economic growth. No investment in your neighborhood. No investment in the future of our youth. In the end you aren’t investing in yourself. There are two things you are going to do in life: pay taxes and die. Get over the whole “we have to pay another tax” thing because if our previous generations didn’t invest in Atlanta, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. Atlanta would be like the rest of Georgia, which is nothing.
iggy
May 31st, 2012
9:32 am
NO to TSplost.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
9:32 am
Government waste? In a conservative run state that’s what some say. These conservatives complain about no new taxes but keep voting the same people in (which is theirselves) that keep wasting the money and appointing there “friends” to these higher positions that don’t know what they are doing. Too funny.
iggy
May 31st, 2012
9:35 am
Govt waste? Look to APS, DCSS, Fulton, Clayton, food stamps, welfare, City of Atl etc.
Cutty
May 31st, 2012
9:37 am
Everyone on the right enjoys talking about the perennial shortfalls of MARTA. This morning when I got to the train station, there were just as many cars w tags from Douglas, Cobb, and Carroll as there were Fulton. Imagine if these counties also had to pay the penny sales tax to help fund MARTA, instead if Fulton and Dekalb bearing the load. You ‘conservatives’ like to rail against freeloaders taking from the government. In this case, you are the freeloaders and proud of it. Go figure.
Kyle Wingfield
May 31st, 2012
9:40 am
JDW: Of course there would be ongoing O&M costs. But don’t you think we ought to know how much those costs will be? And don’t you think we should have a plan for how to pay for them? And don’t you think it’s better to talk about that plan before the vote than after?
And don’t you come on here pretty much every single day and accuse George W. Bush of having failed to do that?
Don Abernethy
May 31st, 2012
9:41 am
NOSPLOST AND NOBAMA.
BlahBlahBlah
May 31st, 2012
9:42 am
If you’re going to raise taxes to pay for roads, raise gas taxes in Georgia. That way all the snowbirds that stop to fill their tanks are helping to pay for the roads they’re using. All the truckers passing through are helping to pay for the roads they’re using.
If you want more money for MARTA, give a plan to expand it that actually makes sense and FORCE outlying counties (Cobb, Gwinnett, I’m looking at you) to allow MARTA. Then, once there is a sensible plan to expand it, think about how to raiset the money to fund it. Washington DC’s Metro is great because it actually starts and finishes in logical locations that make it easy for folks in the burbs to use it. MARTA should head NE to Mall of GA, NW to Barrett Pkwy (at least), out east so folks in the 78/278/I-20 area can use it.
Kyle Wingfield
May 31st, 2012
9:44 am
Bob Loblaw: I’m not “scared” of that, or anything else. But don’t you think we ought to know how we’re going to pay for something before we build it? Don’t you think we ought to have an honest — and informed — conversation about what we’re committing ourselves to do, if we pass this?
I don’t think that conversation necessarily leads one to vote “no.” As I wrote in the column, it may well be that voters are OK with all this. But aren’t you even the teensiest bit concerned that we are only now getting these estimates — the figures have only recently been compiled, and I’m not aware of anyone having reported them before I did — when the referendum is just two months away?
md
May 31st, 2012
9:44 am
A 10 year tax is a 10 year job security bill for those doing the work……and it will take at least 10 years to get any of it done. I drive US 1 in middle Ga quite often……it is truly amazing how slow a project can go when there is 1 guy working every day. They can work on the same stretch of hwy for months…..doing the same work over and over.
Good luck with it…….
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
9:49 am
No to the T-SPLOST but don’t have an alternative, other than do nothing and keep the area in a downward spiral. YES TO THE T-SPLOST! I would even pay 2 cent to support MARTA for an efficient transit system since our conservative Gold Domers aren’t going to pay.
Here’s the alternative to the T-SPLOST. Pay the extra cent tax for MARTA. A full one sent for capital projects and one for O&M. Get MARTA beefed back up to over 150 routes and more trains and higher frequencies on both. Expand rail in south Dekalb and other areas within Fulton and Dekalb. Build our own Beltline for better intown rail transit. Let the ‘burbers who want to sit in traffic do that. Charge them for parking at MARTA’s park and ride lots while Fulton and Dekalb park for free. Stop letting their burb buses tear up downtown and midtown streets and highways. If they want to connect, which they obviously do, let them ride to the end commuter stations. Do away with the Breeze card; NO FREE TRANSFERS!
Let the burbs enjoy their long commutes to their jobs and lost time with there family and friends, while we focus on maintaining jobs, creating a great transit system, and quality of life. I’m also for tolls on all highways coming into the Perimeter. Yeah we would have to pay too leaving out but all the money will be used to maintain the highways while we’ll get federal money for transit because we are also supporting it locally.
md
May 31st, 2012
9:52 am
“Don’t you know without Atlanta’s success the rest of this state is just backwoods and small unproductive towns”
A wee bit full of yourself aren’t you……………….
md
May 31st, 2012
9:55 am
“I would even pay 2 cent to support MARTA for an efficient transit system since our conservative Gold Domers aren’t going to pay. ”
How about upping the fares for those actually using it to make it self-sufficient vs always asking for others to supplement it…………..
sheepdawg
May 31st, 2012
9:56 am
no to tsplost, keep our President in november 2012, get rid of dirty deal and his cronies in november 2014
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
9:56 am
@ iggy May 31st, 2012 9:35 am
Wow so educating and protecting our children is a waste? For all those who lost their jobs food stamps and welfare to help them maintain is a waist? The city of Atlanta is a waist? The same city that generates most of the tax money for the entire state?
@ Cutty May 31st, 2012 9:37 am
So so true!
iggy
May 31st, 2012
10:11 am
“Protecting our children” Spoken like a true liberal. You forgot “It takes a village”.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
10:19 am
Sorry I am and it does. I grew up poor and understand the hard work it takes to make it out. I sure wouldn’t have made it out with just the help of my mother, who also worked very hard. It took my teacher, my family, my friends, programs that were publicly funded, like after school tutoring and park basketball leagues. Sorry if I wasn’t spoon fed everything I worked for, like most (not all) conservatives.
But not to take it there because this is about the T-SPLOST and transportation. Let’s stay on topic iggy. Well I guess you can’t when all you can say is “NO T-SPLOST” and “no taxes” but don’t have a real justified reason to not invest in ATL and the region.
JDW
May 31st, 2012
10:19 am
@Kyle…”But don’t you think we ought to know how much those costs will be?”
You do know how much those costs are…”$767.9 million, is estimated for these projects’ operations and maintenance for 10 years, as required by law. ” I don’t understand the surprise.
“And don’t you think we should have a plan for how to pay for them?”
There is a plan to pay for them. It is funded for 10 years and if at the end of 10 years,or before, it is decided not to fund them then that could be done as well.
“And don’t you come on here pretty much every single day and accuse George W. Bush of having failed to do that?”
If Bush had funded his plans for 10 years with an option at the end to continue or not I wouldn’t have nearly the problem with him that I do. He didn’t fund anything for anytime!
You are presenting the program as “disingenuous” because funding is “only” earmarked for ten years. Most government or business programs with on-going costs are budgeted annually. You should be breathing a sigh of relief that the projects are funded for 10 years and we don’t have to do this every year.
iggy
May 31st, 2012
10:21 am
We have already tried the Obama-CasinoStyle “we dont know what we are doing but lets do something anyway to make ourselves look good, regardless of the outcome”.
And it just isnt working that well. Why compound the problem.
iggy
May 31st, 2012
10:23 am
Ive given my reasons.
JDW
May 31st, 2012
10:24 am
@Kyle…I have said before, I think the TSPLOST represents an abdication of responsiblity on the part of the current Legislature. However, as there is no chance they will act in the event it is not approved so once again we are in the postion of holding our nose and voting for the least objectionable option.
My issue with your approach is that you could use your pulpit to push an alternative, as you have done with ethics, rather than simply advocate doing nothing.
Kyle Wingfield
May 31st, 2012
10:27 am
JDW: Yes, but that $767.9 million figure had not been reported before today, in my column — in large part because it’s only been compiled in the past few weeks. So, yes, there is an element of surprise here, in terms of how much money we are talking about.
“… if at the end of 10 years, or before, it is decided not to fund them then that could be done as well.”
So, for example, we’re going to spend a total of $1.3B on the Beltline and Clilfton Corridor transit — and then, at the end of 10 years, just stop running them? You cannot possibly believe that. If you do, you’re the only person on Earth who does.
So the first question becomes, where does that money come from, if not a renewed T-SPLOST? And the second one becomes, shouldn’t we have that conversation NOW?
Kyle Wingfield
May 31st, 2012
10:29 am
“you could use your pulpit to push an alternative”
There are still two months to go before the vote.
Junior Samples
May 31st, 2012
10:36 am
Unless we want to become obsolete in the corporate markets, we have to pay. Roads have to flow, trains need to run. If you can’t get from point A to point B, then who will want to keep their business here?
Don’t worry, if we do nothing the problem will take care of itself.
Cutty
May 31st, 2012
10:37 am
nd @ 9:55- How about GRTA increases their fees for the suburbanites so I don’t have to subsidize their commute w my tax dollars. That would only be right since the OTPers don’t want to pay for MARTA. Right Kyle?
MANGLER
May 31st, 2012
10:37 am
I live, work, and play primarily OTP. Because of that, I drive 99% of the time. I don’t expect the 5 cities that I commute through to cater to my personal needs. I chose where I live and I chose where I work. I’ve left jobs and moved around, but that was by choice, not mandate. While traffic patterns are on my mind, I’ve accepted certain thresholds due to where I reside. This idea that commuting must be short and hassle free and public transportation must be accessible to as many people as possible in and of itself is an unsustainable idea. You reach a point where if you’ve chosen to live in far flung suburbia you simply have to shut up and deal with irritatingly long and inconvenient travel options and increasing personal costs in time and money to do so. I don’t expect sympathy from someone living downtown, and I don’t expect them to pitch in and pay for infrastructure that I will use and they may never.
However, I do use their infrastructure, like most suburbanites who travel into the city for work or pleasure. So I won’t complain if I’m asked to help pay for that. I have ridden MARTA a few times, mainly to save on airport parking or to not have to find and pay for city parking on the occasion I go to those places. It’s been quite convenient and reliable, more-so than fluctuating traffic conditions. It’s always amazed me how inexpensive public transportation is. I know the ticket price is heavily subsidized. Maybe it shouldn’t be. There is no reason that it should only cost $2 to travel from North Springs to the Airport on the train. It would cost $4 to $6 in fuel alone in a car, plus parking and other related expenses. I would suggest that the ticket prices be raised to more accurately reflect how much the trip actually costs. I know I’ll get the “disproportionately affecting the poor and elderly and disabled” argument that gets tossed around whenever someone suggest paying fare rates for anything. I guess I’ll have to listen, considering there are no elderly, poor, or disabled people that reside OTP and yet seem to manage with little to no public transit options
While I’ve irked you, might as well ad that I’m a fan of eliminating the gas taxes and initiating a use or mileage tax. If your Prius gets three times the mileage as my similarly sized car, I pay three times the road taxes as you do. A semi does more damage to a road in a mile than my car does, but we’re paying the same rates in fuel taxes. An all electric car will pay no fuel taxes (i.e. infrastructure fees). Talk about disproportionate. Tax us on distance traveled rather than volume of fuel, and size and weights of vehicles can be taken into consideration pretty easily. If you commute 10 miles per day, you will likely save money. If you commute 50, well, you’re spending it on gas anyway.
1961_Xer
May 31st, 2012
10:43 am
So, for example, we’re going to spend a total of $1.3B on the Beltline and Clilfton Corridor transit — and then, at the end of 10 years, just stop running them? You cannot possibly believe that. If you do, you’re the only person on Earth who does.
Yes, Kyle, that is completely absurd. If that was really an option, JDW, then the entire metro area would vote a resounding “NO”.
$767 million is not inconsequential. What it says to me is that not only is this TSPLOST NOT going to improve traffic congestion very much for very many people, it is going to rob AT LEAST $767million from future transportation projects every 10 years in perpetuity. So when you vote “Yes” to TSPLOST, you are also committing to increased region-wide taxation for transportation projects for the major urban areas of the state… forever. As a suburban/rural citizen of your region, you will get virtually no transportation dollars for your area, while YOUR taxes go to fund urban areas which you may never travel.
For suburban/rural Georgia, the TSPLOST is looking worse every single day.
clyde
May 31st, 2012
10:46 am
The future cometh.It will cost money.Lots of money.I still vote no on tax increases.I am usually in the minority.
DawgDad
May 31st, 2012
10:49 am
Living in Cherokee County I’m destined to endure extended periods of highway construction with only the guarantee of increased congestion to look forward to, of course with the option to pay even MORE to buy my way around it on a daily basis. I am not in favor of providing even ONE PENNY more funding to G-DOT or whoever is mis-managing our transportation funds, let alone BILLIONS. The current project list is a complete 100% non-starter for me, the 10-year tax term is ridiculous, and the near-certainty of this tax running on forever is a poison pill in-and-of itself.
The only certainty is the swarm of leeches chasing after MY (taxpayer) money. Pride in Atlanta? I avoid going there like the plague. Inner city people have no hesitation jumping on the AJC blogs and calling those who share my values all kinds of nasty names, you think I want to commit BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars to their wasteful pet projects? No way, never, no how.
iggy
May 31st, 2012
10:57 am
This TSplost is a lose lose for everyone except the public sector and Marta, who thinks they can keep wasting and mismanaging funds indefinitely.
Kamchak ~ Thug from the Steppes
May 31st, 2012
10:58 am
But don’t you think we ought to know how we’re going to pay for something before we build it?
Have you mentioned that point to Ga. Power about their new nuclear facility?
JDW
May 31st, 2012
10:59 am
@Kyle…if we did not know the $767.9 figure or have any estimates of it prior to now then that is certainly something that should be reported. However, I still say a 10 year planning horizon is sufficient for this type spending and the fact that funding will have to be addressed after that time is not something that needs action today. In fact I think worrying about it now is premature.
Do I think we are going to just stop running the Beltline and Clilfton Corridor transit at the end of ten years. Not likely, but in ten years there could be a myriad of funding options other than TSPLOST that could come into play.
md
May 31st, 2012
11:01 am
“I know the ticket price is heavily subsidized. Maybe it shouldn’t be. There is no reason that it should only cost $2 to travel from North Springs to the Airport on the train.”
Those in favor that point to Euro systems must not be aware that they charge according to distance traveled……….needs to be done in the Atl as well.
Don't Tread
May 31st, 2012
11:02 am
Even though the expiration of the T-SPLOST is written into the law, whey can always write another law in the future to change that. And until some sunshine is injected into government, it’s just another slush fund for the well-connected at my expense. No thanks.
JDW
May 31st, 2012
11:03 am
@Kyle…”There are still two months to go before the vote.”
If there is an option that is better than TSPLOST or doing nothing I will be right there with you. But for now there is not.
md
May 31st, 2012
11:03 am
“nd @ 9:55- How about GRTA increases their fees for the suburbanites so I don’t have to subsidize their commute w my tax dollars.”
Works for me…….I say those that use the systems should be charged accordingly.
Kyle Wingfield
May 31st, 2012
11:04 am
JDW @ 10:59: Riiiight. Because the fiscal history of this state and nation suggests things usually work out better when we wait until there’s a problem to make a plan…
DawgDad
May 31st, 2012
11:07 am
“in ten years there could be a myriad of funding options other than TSPLOST that could come into play”
Having choked on my coffee, you at least deserve an opportunity to explain yourself. Based on decades of life experience, I would read this as “a myriad of creative new taxes that will come into play”.
iggy
May 31st, 2012
11:12 am
These downtown projects such as The Beltline, trolleys, light rail are just a pig in a poke that will not ever pay for themselvs or are “nice to haves” and not a necessity. Im with Dawg, in that, I rarely venture into the Atlanta cesspool. If Atl wants all these unnecessary projects then let the riders and citizens of such pay for them.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
11:19 am
iggy,
doing something has work much better than doing nothing and hoping it fixes itself. Obama took over a country that was “small government, tax breaks for the wealthy, and limited regulation for big companies.” Look where that got us and on top of the biggest break down in national security through the country into a recession. Making the top 10% of folks rich while us regular folks are struggling doesn’t seem like a great idea. Now if you are rich then I see why that makes sense to you. Bottom line it takes money to fix this problem. Think if Roosevelt wouldn’t have expanded government during the depression. Where would this country be? But no… you are right, let’s get Romney in there and continue to cut taxes for the rich. I’m sure a big business man himself wouldn’t find a benefit to doing that!
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
11:25 am
Think if Roosevelt wouldn’t have expanded government during the depression. Where would this country be?
———————————————
Probably solvent!
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
11:26 am
For all you people that want to vote NO and have no solutions please do NOT complain and (female dog) about traffic if it does not pass.
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
11:30 am
let’s get Romney in there and continue to cut taxes for the rich.
Actually taxes have been cut for everyone. Think where the country would be if the poor and middle class had to come up with another $400 per year to pay Uncle Sugar. Obama must have liked the idea of lower taxes to help the economy, as he claims to be a big tax cutter, since he extended the Oblamer Tax Cuts. He is a big tax cutter and frugal to boot, just listen to him.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
11:31 am
http://it3.ga.gov/Documents/TIA-FactSheet-10-28-2011.pdf
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
11:33 am
Have many of you forgotten that there are “hard times” with a national debt that we must pay off. Remeber that? Do not add taxes on citizens when they already have huge huge debts overhead..
Here’s a simple plan. Drop TSPLOST and plan one year with the money you are sure you have and make modest plans that do not cost more than is surely expected. Cut every expense in DOT and related agencies until they stop spending like the state is wealthy. It is NOT. DO NOT RAISE TAXES. The majority of citizerns need their money more than a new road to somewhere.
But we do allocate some money for transportation. Do not plan to spend more than that. Forget ten years. We can go crazy with money when we have some.
Thank you, Kyle, for giving us exact figures. Otherwise, this is like the blind leading the blind.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
11:34 am
Too much “what am I going to get” from the No voters. “I live OTP and I never travel in the city.” That could be said for some ITP folks that ride in ATL. What about those others that commute OTP to ITP and vise versa? That kind of thinking weakens the entire region. Bottom line is this is the ATLANTA metro area. There are more people that will benefit from transit in the city and more that will benefit from roads OTP. But should an ITP not pay for roads OTP? No because there are others that do use them. Vise versa should OTP not expand transit in there area and help pay for MARTA? Again, no because there are people who make that commute into the city every day. We are a region and need to think that way. There are going to be more buses and trains within Fulton and Dekalb but rail lines, even if just one to take you into the city with connecting buses should be there and supported. ITP we need roads ITP and major roads OTP cause while some employers go to downtown and midtown others will go to suburban office parks. You never know where your job will take you and where people choose to live. In the end no body is going to drive on every road in the metro area or take every bus and train in the metro area. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t suppor the other regardless of what you support: transit or roads.
1961_Xer
May 31st, 2012
11:34 am
“in ten years there could be a myriad of funding options other than TSPLOST that could come into play”
LMFAO! Read ” in ten years, there could be a myriad of new taxes other than TSPLOST that WILL come into play”. Anyway you read it, if you are voting for TSPLOST, you are voting for new taxes in perpetuity. And do you think Atlanta/Fulton/Dekalb are, by themselves, going to pay for ongoing maintenance and operations totaling at least $80 million a year for projects voted in by the region? How long till we hear, “you helped vote it in, now you have to help pay O&M”?
This is a HUGE permanent money grab by urban areas.
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
11:40 am
Vote against T-SPLOST.
Ask yourself on state and national finances: Do you want to be more like Greece or Germany?
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 31st, 2012
11:41 am
I am Constitutionally opposed to voting myself a pay decrease.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
11:48 am
“I am Constitutionally opposed to voting myself a pay decrease.”
Please don’t use the roads, bridges, trains, sidewalks, police, fire, etc anymore. Thanks.
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
11:52 am
Tiberius @ 11:41
I’m with you on that one..No mo pay DEcreases.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 31st, 2012
11:52 am
Vote Yes, I pay more than my fair share of federal, state and local taxes for roads, bridges, sidewalks police and fire which I do or may use, and for trains that I will never use.
So you may kiss my royal behind if you don’t like the fact that I refuse to vote myself a pay decrease to fund even more. Got it?
jj
May 31st, 2012
11:53 am
Read the entire list, the problem is the amount of pork and BS projects to satisfy some special interest group. I keep reading about the 400-I85 interchange; correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t they keep the toll booth up in order for tolls to pay for this interchange, and now it is on the TSPLOST list. And they expect us to just, “trust them”?????
Jefferson
May 31st, 2012
11:56 am
This is the kind of crap you get from the GA GOP gov’t. They have no credibility to solve any problems, because of their tax policy mindset and the fact they won’t fix gov’t, just say its not the answer. Well YOU have to fix it because that is what we have to work with, in the mean time the greedy let the roads crumble.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
12:02 pm
Tiberius, that money that we all already pay is not enough to keep up with the population increase in this city. Sorry.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 31st, 2012
12:06 pm
Yes it is, Vote Yes. The city merely has to prioritize their own expenses and more importantly (if they want to be a city), they need to fund their infrastructure improvements themselves with a local tax voted in by their citizens or their elected officials.
Atlanta needs to stop sucking the life out of the rest of this state, and take care of themselves.
I am NOT my brother’s keeper unless I choose to be – voluntarily and with free will.
JDW
May 31st, 2012
12:07 pm
@Kyle…”Because the fiscal history of this state and nation suggests things usually work out better when we wait until there’s a problem to make a plan…”
To me 10 years is a plan…I have never in all my years of Corporate life ever seen a plan that did not require adjustment as it progressed. 10 years is IMO a very long planning horizon and anything more is just guessing.
JDW
May 31st, 2012
12:09 pm
@Rafe…”Probably solvent!”
How do you say solvent in German?
Darby
May 31st, 2012
12:09 pm
So, my county is expected to pay out 156M but in return we will receive 25M in road benefits. No thanks.
yuzeyurbrane
May 31st, 2012
12:16 pm
Kyle, sharp, insightful analysis. Thank you for treating the public like adults. Too bad T-Splost promoters and detractors think we can only handle 30 second soundbites. All of this explains why I have remained ambivalent about this issue.
md
May 31st, 2012
12:16 pm
“Bottom line it takes money to fix this problem.”
Bottom line, it takes money from the private sector to carry the weight of a bloated gov’t sucking everything dry.
The gov’t doesn’t generate much of anything…..it must come from the private sector, yet people like this bitch and moan about companies making huge profits which just happens to be in their best interests.
We are corporations, and we want huge profits with just enough gov’t to provide the common functions of society. When the parasite gets too big, the body dies.
Don
May 31st, 2012
12:20 pm
Darby – I guess you never travel outside your county. The region’s counties are joined at the hip. That’s why it’s a REGIONAL tax….
Hillbilly D
May 31st, 2012
12:28 pm
The expiration of the T-SPLOST, on the other hand, is written into the law.
Laws can and do get changed all the time. I don’t trust them.
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
12:32 pm
When T-SPLOST Went SPLAT (a poem!)
————————————————
There were some Georgia gentlemen
Who worked hard from ten to ten.
They made a great plan
To take your money on demand.
The proposal went something like this:
“Your money you won’t miss!
I’ll build a bouquet of transit
With plans all written in Sanskrit.
You will go from here to there
With nary a nick or a care.
In ten years I’ll propose
Another plan, sweet as a rose.
Just give your $$$$ to me
And I’ll spend it just for thee.”
But the ladies turned pale
And let out a wail!
Place your sticky fingers elsewhere.
It’s my money and dear.
You’ve doublecrossed me before
But it won’t happen any more.
I’ll take the road least chosen
Instead of the one you’re proposin’.
So look on the books to see what’s there
And that is ALL we’re going to share.
To T-SPLOST it’s toodle loo.
I’m keeping my money, thank you!
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
12:33 pm
@Hillbilly D. That law can not be changed without another vote.
On another note, it’s amazing the amount of information that is assumed in these arguments.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
12:35 pm
@ Tiberius. Which is why it is a REGIONAL splost, not a state wide referendum.
Don
May 31st, 2012
12:36 pm
For the life of me, I can never figure out why some people can’t get past the O&M subsidies for transit. Is it just complete ignorance on what it would take to build, operate and maintain highways with the same capacity?
There are roughly 140,000 MARTA rail commuters each day making a round trip. If you take this away, you’re talking about having to add at least 20 lanes to the downtown connector to handle the same traffic, just for starters. You could pay the O&M subsidy for several MARTAs in perpetuity with that chunk of change.
As for building transportation capacity to carry existing trips. Never happens. Think NYC’s subway system was built AFTER all those skyscrapers went up? The skyscrapers were build because the transportation capacity to support them was already in place.
Hillbilly D
May 31st, 2012
12:36 pm
VOTE YES
I don’t remember voting to be part of a region (not Atlanta by the way), which can levy a tax on me because 2 counties in my region have all the votes and can vote a tax increase for the rest of us. Even if this thing passes, I expect lawsuits on that very point. It’s taxation without representation in my view.
Don
May 31st, 2012
12:38 pm
Dusty @11:40. I want transportation like they have in Germany!
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
12:41 pm
@Hillbilly D. Your County Commissioner and Mayor of your county seat represented you. You elected them.
md
May 31st, 2012
12:42 pm
“There are roughly 140,000 MARTA rail commuters each day making a round trip. If you take this away, you’re talking about having to add at least 20 lanes to the downtown connector to handle the same traffic, just for starters.”
And how many of that 140k go 2 blocks from station to station?
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
12:45 pm
@ Don. Exactly. You have the infrastructure and then the population increase (WHICH EQUALS MORE REVENUE) comes, not the other way around.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
May 31st, 2012
12:45 pm
Hey, here’s an example of a well-to-do conservative creating jobs! Way to go, Curt Schilling!
I am sure Schilling will emerge from this terrible trial slightly bloodied but still totally rich and famous while, some schools get shut down or some firefighters are laid off or something, because of this gritty new addition to Rhode Island’s budget deficit.
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/31/welfare_baby_curt_schilling_i_am_not_a_welfare_baby/
killerj
May 31st, 2012
12:49 pm
If MARTA is involved it will fail.
Hillbilly D
May 31st, 2012
12:49 pm
Vote Yes
I don’t get to vote for the Mayor of my county seat. That’s 10 miles from here.
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
12:51 pm
Don, 12:38
If we were as thrifty as the Germans we would probably have better transportation. Wheee…an autobahn!
md
May 31st, 2012
12:54 pm
“You have the infrastructure and then the population increase (WHICH EQUALS MORE REVENUE) comes, not the other way around.”
Except infrastructure is not the big problem in Atl…….that would be water. Atl can have all the newest transportation it would want and still not solve that problem…..it would actually compound the problem by bringing in more unsustainable migrants.
It’s not like Atl can just go out and build another river……….
Hillbilly D
May 31st, 2012
12:56 pm
md
Excellent point. Atlanta and it’s environs had better find something to hang its economy on other than perpetual growth and wide open development. It’s not the center of the universe.
iggy
May 31st, 2012
12:57 pm
“It’s not like Atl can just go out and build another river……….”
HEAR HEAR…and precisely why we need no more increase in the population. Atlanta has peaked.
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
12:58 pm
md, 12:54
That is so poetic. Oh build me a river and I will grow! Then give me a boat so I can go.
(Don’t mind me. Your point is well taken. )
JohnnyReb
May 31st, 2012
12:59 pm
Cutty
May 31st, 2012
9:37 am
Everyone on the right enjoys talking about the perennial shortfalls of MARTA. This morning when I got to the train station, there were just as many cars w tags from Douglas, Cobb, and Carroll as there were Fulton. Imagine if these counties also had to pay the penny sales tax to help fund MARTA, instead if Fulton and Dekalb bearing the load. You ‘conservatives’ like to rail against freeloaders taking from the government. In this case, you are the freeloaders and proud of it. Go figure.
____________________
Here friends is a perfect example of the disconnect between Liberals and Conservatives.
Conservatives expect to pay for services; so those guys from outlying counties are paying the fee charged by MARTA.
Liberals expect the fee charged by MARTA to be less than its really worth with taxpayer subsidies paying the shortfall.
The real issue is not riders from outying counties not paying a tax to subsidize MARTA. The issue is MARTA not charging a fair that even comes close to operating at break even.
Finn McCool
May 31st, 2012
1:05 pm
unfrikkin-believable
Today, the House of Representatives will vote on a bill banning sex-selective abortions, despite the fact that the GOP leadership has insisted that it’s focused on the economy — and not that pesky “war on women” stuff they keep getting tarred with.
Finn McCool
May 31st, 2012
1:08 pm
Conservatives expect to pay for services
mwuahahahahahaha. Yeah, right!
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
1:08 pm
So then your idea is to stunt population growth by not passing the referendum because Atlanta is already too big? Maybe you should move to Macon.
Jefferson
May 31st, 2012
1:08 pm
To those who only see black and white, news is the world is in color.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
1:09 pm
Hillbilly D, ok fine, your County Commissioner represented you.
1961_Xer
May 31st, 2012
1:10 pm
unfrikkin-believable
Today, the House of Representatives will vote on a bill banning sex-selective abortions, despite the fact that the GOP leadership has insisted that it’s focused on the economy — and not that pesky “war on women” stuff they keep getting tarred with
Selective abortion of female children IS a “war on women”.
If it were possible to read minds and tell that the sole reason a woman was having an abortion is BECAUSE of the sex of the child, I’d be all for writing a law against it. Look what is happening in India and China! But since that is (currently) impossible, this is just wasted energy.
getalife
May 31st, 2012
1:11 pm
Do you hear that?
That is the sound of our cons being marginalized as kooks.
Sounds good doesn’t it?
A Conservative Voice
May 31st, 2012
1:19 pm
@Road Scholar
May 31st, 2012
5:54 am
Folks, don’t listen to Road Scholar or Bryan……they obviously have a vested interest in T-SPLOST being passed. Vote NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO on July 31st.
Sounds like another……..”We have to pass it in order to see what’s in it”………
You know, it not like I’m against the improvements…….what I’m against is giving those politicians any more money to flush down the toilet…….just more “Jobs Programs”.
@@
May 31st, 2012
1:20 pm
@Hillbilly D. Your County Commissioner and Mayor of your county seat represented you. You elected them.
Just like Obama represents the majority on abortion and HIS signature health care plan.
55% Support Repeal of Obama’s Health Care Plan
A new Gallup Poll, conducted May 7-10, finds 51% of Americans calling themselves “pro-life” on the issue of abortion and 42% “pro-choice.”
53% currently say abortion should be legal only under certain circumstances.
@@
May 31st, 2012
1:25 pm
Finn:
I was shocked to find out that sex-selective abortions are even allowed in the U.S.. The U.K. has banned them outright. I think it’s 47 states where it’s legal here. We’re no better than China.
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
1:35 pm
I have no dog in the abortion fight and am not a woman and too old to sprout any more of my own. I think women should be free to make that decision, and live with it, no whining.
BUT, only some mighty flawed narrow minded democrat thought challenged liberal, could think that a law that stops some woman from aborting females, is anti- female.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
1:38 pm
@ A Conservative Voice. Did you know a citizens oversight committee will be appointed and do annual audits to make sure every penny is being spent on the projects listed? I bet you didn’t. Just like the rest of the opponents seem to never know all the facts.
No TSPLOST
May 31st, 2012
1:39 pm
http://www.spencer4georgia.com/vote-no-on-t-splost/
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
1:39 pm
@@, if you don’t like the way America is set up then leave the country. Guess what, if someone is elected by the people then they REPRESENT you. Like it or not. That’s the way it works here.
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
1:41 pm
Conservative Voice
just more “Jobs Programs”.
—————————————–
CW Matthews et al, jobs program. Three guys leaning on a shovel, two reading a blue print on the hood of the truck, two directing traffic, and one digging the hole. Traffic backed up for 25 miles. All work in one lane, but three lanes shut down, one open for traffic.
If this jobs program is like Oblamer’s, each job created will cost the taxpayers about $300,000.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
1:43 pm
http://www.spencer4georgia.com/vote-no-on-t-splost/ <—— This is another fine example on how uninformed people are, including potential state representatives. There are numerous assumptions and false statements in this diatribe.
Of course, nobody cares about facts anymore.
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
1:45 pm
Vote Yes, if your county gets two votes in a ” four county region” and your reps vote against the majority opinion, because their county is not benefiting from the proposal, you have representation, but it is useless. Bend over!
@@
May 31st, 2012
1:46 pm
@@, if you don’t like the way America is set up then leave the country.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
1:47 pm
Vote Yes,
Do you work for CW Matthews or another company benefiting from this boondoogle?
Cutty
May 31st, 2012
1:47 pm
JohnnyReb
May 31st, 2012
12:59 pm
Show me where I ever expected the fee charged by MARTA to be less than its worth. Typical conservative thinking. We ITP liberals are paying the true cost thru the penny sales tax. I’m asking you conservative freeloaders to do the same. If you knew anything about public transit you wouldn’t have written such an idiotic post. Typical conservative, wants to pay the least and get the most.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
1:48 pm
Rafe Hollister, Firstly, I don’t make assumptions about who benefits besides the good citizens of our region, Secondly, to humor you, no I do not work for any construction company.
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
1:49 pm
@@
Maybe instead of you leaving the USA, we can do things the way Vote Yes described. Have a vote, every blogger gets a vote and we can boot Vote YES off the Island. He can vote, that is the way we do things in America.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
1:50 pm
Rafe Hollister, I don’t recall any representative of any county being against it at the time of voting for the completed project list. I’ll have to go back and double check though. Do you happen to know which county reps voted against the project list? Or against the whole idea at all?
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
1:51 pm
@@, if a blog were an election I’d be happy to leave. Too bad it’s not. Sorry.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
1:52 pm
I meant to say “Rafe” not “@@”
DawgDad
May 31st, 2012
1:53 pm
I am getting very tired of reading accusations that the people opposing T-SPLOST are not interested in developing and maintaining regional infrastructure or supporting economic growth. I’ve lived in Cherokee and paid taxes for many years now without seeing a third lane materialize on I-575, and now understand an HOT lane is getting rammed down our throats. Throw away these billions of dollars while raising taxes and you will ultimately help STAGNATE growth in the Atlanta metro area.
iggy
May 31st, 2012
1:54 pm
“Typical conservative, wants to pay the least and get the most.”
No, we just get tired of paying for freeloaders and those who dont want to pay their own way…ie the lazy.(mainly obaManure voters)
@@
May 31st, 2012
1:55 pm
Never could I have imagined that leftists would be in here arguing on behalf of the well-connected and AT ANY PRICE, no less.
schnirt
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
2:07 pm
VOTE YES, 1:39
So… whomever is selected by vote is the one to support because the people said so.
I’m glad to hear that is what you think. Now I know YOU SUPPORTED GEORGE W. BUSH FOR EIGHT YEARS. Thank you. I supported him too.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:07 pm
I’m tired of paying for the lazy too!!! They should pay more of their share! If only there was a way to tax those that don’t pay income taxes or property taxes….hmmm…is there a way to tax EVERYBODY regardless of legality, socioeconomic status, etc….hmmm….maybe…maybe with a sales tax???!!! YES! that’s it!!! We could require EVERYONE to pay a sales tax for things that EVERYONE uses like roads, bridges, schools, etc….We could call it a Special Purpose Local Option Sales Tax!! That’s IT!!!
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:08 pm
Dusty, that’s what I personally believe mostly because I’m an American and believe in my country and the will of the people. Maybe I’m crazy.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:09 pm
DawgDad, A HOT lane is not getting rammed down your throats. Do you happen to know how that 575/75 HOT lane is being funded?
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:11 pm
Who here is in favor of a Fair Tax?
*HAND RAISED*
Guess what, this is the closest to a fair tax we are going to get any time soon.
Shawny
May 31st, 2012
2:13 pm
no. nyet. nein. zippo. nada. heck no
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
2:14 pm
VOTE YES
You dodged the implication on your beliefs. Just tell us, did you support George W. Bush when he was our elected president? WELL????????
iggy
May 31st, 2012
2:19 pm
“I’m an American and believe in my country and the will of the people. Maybe I’m crazy.”
Thats good to hear!! So when TSplost goes Splat you will understand its the will of the people.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:29 pm
Dusty, of course I did. Why would you assume I wouldn’t? You guys sure do make a lot of assumptions. I bet you all assume I voted for Obama too? Wow. ASSu(NOT)me
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:29 pm
iggy, absolutely.
A Conservative Voice
May 31st, 2012
2:29 pm
@VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
1:38 pm
@ A Conservative Voice. Did you know a citizens oversight committee will be appointed and do annual audits to make sure every penny is being spent on the projects listed? I bet you didn’t. Just like the rest of the opponents seem to never know all the facts.
Yeah, right……if you really believe this is gonna happen you’re quite naive. The only fact I need to know is……If a local politician gets his/her hands on money, it will be wasted……period, and no “Oversight Committee” is gonna stop it. C’mon man, get real…..oh, you’re probably another one with a vested interest in passage
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:30 pm
I’m just disappointed so many seemingly intelligent people here are not voting for it based on false “facts” and assumptions. I thought the voting public was smarter.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:31 pm
For those people that want to read the actual law again, here it is:
http://www1.legis.ga.gov/legis/2009_10/pdf/hb1218.pdf
Notice how it says the price of the project is to include maintenance and operational costs…
“(2) ‘Cost of project’ means:
208 (A) All costs of acquisition, by purchase or otherwise, construction, assembly,
209 installation, modification, renovation, extension, rehabilitation, operation, or
210 maintenance incurred in connection with any project of the special district or any part
211 thereof”
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:32 pm
@ A Conservative Voice…it’s in the law. It has to happen.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:34 pm
@ A Conservative Voice, so you must be one of those people with a vested interest in it not passing. Like you don’t want everyone to pay their fair share or something? You’d rather only legal property owning Americans pay for stuff? Nice. Or better yet, you’d rather keep using the gas tax to pay for transportation. This is the same gas tax that gets sent up to D.C. so the federal government can divide it up as they see fit. I guess that’s better in your view.
Intown
May 31st, 2012
2:36 pm
I’m not a big fan of the T-SPLOST. It’s regressive, unimaginative, devoid of political courage, and has a poorly assembled project list. But, let’s face it, it’s the best our little imperfect democracy here in Georgia is going to come up with. So, I’m going to vote for it … begrudingly.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
2:36 pm
@ Tiberius – Banned from Bookman’s and proud of it! May 31st, 2012 12:06 pm
ATLANTA needs to stop sucking the life out the state?! Really when ATL generates most of the tax money for the state to spend on the ‘burbs and the little towns that contribute nothing?
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:39 pm
Seriously. Last time I checked people weren’t flying in from around the world to stay at hotels and eat at restaurants during their conferences in towns like Albany or Dalton.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:40 pm
@ Intown. “But, let’s face it, it’s the best our little imperfect democracy here in Georgia is going to come up with.”
That might be the best thing I’ve read here all day.
AmVet
May 31st, 2012
2:44 pm
No, we just get tired of paying for freeloaders and those who dont want to pay their own way…
Who would have guessed it?
A dead red neocon b*tching about General Electric, BP, Verizon, Mattel, Honeywell, Wells Fargo and Boeing among MANY others!
Good job iggy pop!
It’s WAY past time that some of you GOPers finally woke up to the billion dollar parasites…
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
2:46 pm
@ md May 31st, 2012 12:16 pm
So do you think there is going to be much private investment in an area that has a terrible transportation infrustructure and transit system. They won’t be making money here so they won’t be coming, or for that case staying. It won’t be until your job is gone that you’ll want to invest in things that keep the area growing.
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
2:47 pm
VOTE YES, 2:29
You asked why I assumed you did not support George W. Bush. Why?
Because….when it walks like a liberal duck, talks like a liberal duck, wants to raise taxes like a liberal duck….. I might assume it is a liberal duck.
Are you trying to drop your feathers and be a libertarian or something? Sounds like it. Not to mention the distinct smell of Democratic party lines also.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:49 pm
Dusty, you keep assuming and I’ll keep proving you wrong.
Dusty, do you favor the Fair Tax? Do you favor everyone paying for the things everyone uses? What’s the best way to make sure all the users of a product are paying for said product?
iggy
May 31st, 2012
2:50 pm
“I thought the voting public was smarter.”
So did I, then Obama was elected.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:51 pm
iggy, good point but let’s see if he gets re-elected. Then we’ll know how smart the voting public is.
A Conservative Voice
May 31st, 2012
2:53 pm
@VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
2:34 pm
@ A Conservative Voice, so you must be one of those people with a vested interest in it not passing. Like you don’t want everyone to pay their fair share or something? You’d rather only legal property owning Americans pay for stuff? Nice. Or better yet, you’d rather keep using the gas tax to pay for transportation. This is the same gas tax that gets sent up to D.C. so the federal government can divide it up as they see fit. I guess that’s better in your view.
Naw, that’s not it at all……I can already see into the future as to what will happen to most of the money…….it will be spent on administrative expenses and a “Jobs Program”……I hate throwing my tax money down the toilet. Also, MARTA is a black hole…..you can never put enough money in it. Let’s rip ‘er up boys…..it’s a failed venture.
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
May 31st, 2012
2:58 pm
@ JohnnyReb
May 31st, 2012
12:59 pm
Why would MARTA or any agency charge fares so high that in the end they don’t compete with driving? If it costs as much as driving why would I use the service AND have the service take longer? That is the pay off that it may take a little longer but I save money with a cheap rate. Conservates don’t want to pay for it themselves because if that is the case you should pay for your own roads locally. Lets see how bad the burbs roads look when the population they have can’t afford the upkeep.
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
3:07 pm
Oh no, getalife’s twin brother is here. You know. AmVet.
sigh…..The pro-splotters must have called in the lib troopers.
Now it’s: ” D…..n the truth. Full speed ahead!” ( I paraphrase Adm. John Paul Jones.)
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
3:14 pm
VOTE YES, since you asked. …
I am for taxing all incomes with equal rates. I consider the money of rich people to be just as much theirs as those who make less. Equality is for all people, rich or poor. I do not believe in punishing the rich for being wealthy.
Tiberius - Banned by Bookman and proud of it!
May 31st, 2012
3:16 pm
Vote yes, please stop comparing tsplost to the fair tax. The fair tax REPLACES current taxes. This issue an ADDITIONAL tax.
Big difference.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
3:19 pm
Dusty, then it sounds like you favor a universal sales tax based on how much you purchase.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
3:23 pm
Tiberius, If this does not pass the gas tax will have to raised at some point to make up the difference. The gas tax is currently collected, sent to D.C., and then redistributed throughout the country. So, therefore, the SPLOST will replace a gas tax in the future.
Either way you look at it, something has to be done about traffic. Seems like using a sales tax is the most fair way to do it.
If you think we can afford to wait until the government decides to stop wasting and abusing the current tax money you are crazy and be prepared for increasingly worse traffic each year until the politicians are forced to raise the gas tax.
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
3:57 pm
VOTE YES..
INCOME! Income is the word I used. Not the one you gave as a substitute. I never mentioned purchases. You did. Don’t try to muddy the water.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
4:04 pm
Dusty, sorry, I wasn’t trying to change your wording. I was just relating it to the current debate. We are not getting a fair tax on income any time soon.
Phineas
May 31st, 2012
4:10 pm
Intown at 2:36 has it about right: “T-SPLOST is regressive, unimaginative, devoid of political courage, and has a poorly assembled project list. But, let’s face it, it’s the best our little imperfect democracy here in Georgia is going to come up with.” This IS the best we can hope for from our Georgia legislature. The alternative is nothing will happen, which I think even many/most conservatives would agree is not an acceptable option. And let’s face it — it doesn’t matter what the project list is, the “vote no” crowd will always be against it, just as they would be against any major public project.
So VOTE YES, unless you want Atlanta to continue to be stuck in a backward slide.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
4:19 pm
This is a map of Atlanta in 1940 with dozens of street cars and mass transit.
http://www.atlantadowntown.com/_files/docs/atlanta-1940-streetcar-map.pdf
In November of 1941 the citizens voted to end a 1% T-SPLOST and now we have Marta….I made up that last part.
md
May 31st, 2012
4:32 pm
“It won’t be until your job is gone that you’ll want to invest in things that keep the area growing.”
My job already left……I took it with me when I got out of the madness that is now Atl.
And as I said, infrastructure is the least of the worries…….best start focusing on where you are going to get water. If the dems other prophet is correct, global warming will boil what you have left into the clouds………
Dusty
May 31st, 2012
4:37 pm
Are any of you familiar with the paid bloggers we had before the last presidential election? I am.
Obama had twenty paid workers in Georgia alone. One of them was IN THE NEWS now known as mz godzilla at Bookmans. Almost every other post was one of hers against Bush and GOP. Continuosly! This is how they work.
They have the gift of gab to start with. They post as many comments as poosible , one right after another. They twist what others say. They mention their patriotism now and then to throw in credence. They never see anything wrong with Democrats and the like. They constantly repeat dubious fallacies against conservatives. In every subtle way, or not so subtle, support Obama and liberal views..
Now comes summer before the next election. I see a familiar pattern. Sure, I could be wrong. ‘but elections are coming and politics are hot. Suddenly we have a new vigorous fast moving lib (but denied)blogger posting like a banshee..
OK… I saw it in the past and rather not repeat the scene. Just wondered if you had noticed.
md
May 31st, 2012
4:39 pm
“Really when ATL generates most of the tax money for the state to spend on the ‘burbs and the little towns that contribute nothing?”
Those “burbs” are actually included in Atl and those citizens contribute quite a bit to the overall economy…..unless you really expect folks to believe that those inside the city limits do it all by themselves…..
And you may want to venture out into those small towns to see what they actually do contribute to the economy…….start with a little place called “Vidalia”……..
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
4:40 pm
wow…I wish I was paid for this!
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
4:41 pm
I see plenty wrong with Dems! LOL!
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
4:52 pm
md, is right, until the water wars are resolved growth/population increase should be off the table. We need access to more water before we worry about more transportation.
I am amazed at the two or three people who are for this thing. Everyone for it, admits it is poorly thought out, will be poorly managed, has much waste built in like the Beltline, and will not have much effect for a number of years, but it is the best that we can expect from our poorly governed state.
To me it is much like Oblamercare. The urge to get something done right away to reduce those healthcare costs. Pass the bill so we can read it and find out what is in it. Rig the numbers so we pay four years of taxes before we start paying out any benefits so it will look like it costs less.
Then we learn what the NO voters told you all along, the numbers were rigged, it is very expensive, it raises the cost of health insurance, no you can’t keep your provider, and yes everyone is going to be dumped on Oblamacare plan.
When do you people learn that politicians do what is expedient and lie to you to get it done. How many times are you going to play the sucker? Yes, we need improved transportation, but with the economy and the water situation the way it is, is now the time? Why can’t we wait until something sensible is proposed? It is not a priority at this time to pass a flawed bill that will serve to enrich the construction industry, tie up traffic for years, and do little to eradicate congestion.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
4:55 pm
You can read the law right now Rafe Hollister. I posted it in this blog.
JDW
May 31st, 2012
4:58 pm
@MD…”start with a little place called “Vidalia””
While I love Vidalia onions, little is the operative word. Whats the entire value of the crop $120-$150 million? How many companies in Atlanta generate more? Let me give you a hint…according to the Atlanta Business Chronicle there are more than 70 with revenues of $500 million or more.
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
5:00 pm
Vote Yes
New laws are written everyday that correct, change, override, and eliminate old laws. I don’t believe anything I hear and only half what I see. When you get to be my age you will understand. I had rather have the word of a used car salesman than a politicians.
JDW
May 31st, 2012
5:01 pm
@Rafe..”Why can’t we wait until something sensible is proposed? ”
We have been doing that for the last 10 years while falling further and further behind. 10 years ago the Metro area was one of the leading economies of this country. After 10 years of negect we drag along towards the rear. Sorry but acting like an ostrich doesn’t cut it.
Shaniqua
May 31st, 2012
5:05 pm
Enter your comments here
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
5:06 pm
JDW
I think by Vidalia he was might be referring to Agriculture. I may be wrong, but I believe that agricultural production throughout Georgia brings in more money than any other business sector. Don’t think there is much agricultural production within the Metro Atlanta area. The point being that the rest of Georgia does not just suck off Atlanta.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
5:06 pm
@ Rafe, this law can not be changed without another vote. Have you even read the bill?
MarkV
May 31st, 2012
5:08 pm
Dusty @3:57 pm @VOTE YES.
Please stop confusing each other as well as others. Dusty is in favor of Flat Tax, i.e., income tax with the same tax rate regardless of income. The proposed national sales tax is called Fair Tax, but that should be capitalized so that it is not confused with the issue of fairness of taxes.
md
May 31st, 2012
5:08 pm
“While I love Vidalia onions, little is the operative word. Whats the entire value of the crop $120-$150 million? How many companies in Atlanta generate more? Let me give you a hint…according to the Atlanta Business Chronicle there are more than 70 with revenues of $500 million or more.”
A bit deceptive there isn’t it? And how many of those companies generate all their income in Atlanta? or in Georgia for that matter?
And how many are actually based inside the city limits?? How many in the worthless “burbs” as Bryan calls them??
@@
May 31st, 2012
5:09 pm
VOTE YES:
I saw where another AJC Blog columnist booted Fred. Would you, perchance, be he? “LOL”
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
5:09 pm
Here’s an idea, how about all you people that assume what will happen 5, 10 years from now actually read the bill and understand the facts before voting NO. Can you even do that? Or is it easier to go in blind and just say no because you can see into the future.
Ridiculous.
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
5:11 pm
Amazing. Because somebody has an opinion that is different than yours and is actually passionate about it they MUST be a paid blogger or something.
I guess it is much easier to call someone a paid blogger or troll or something like that to actually believe that there are others with differing opinions that just might be right. Crazy.
Khedarius
May 31st, 2012
5:11 pm
It makes the pro-SPLOST boosters uncomfortable whenever we reference the GA400 never-ending-toll situation so in fairness let’s acknowledge the enhancement to 400 that resulted from extending the toll: we now get to drive in the emergency lane (but only @ certain times).
VOTE YES!
May 31st, 2012
5:14 pm
the GA 400 toll is completely different. It was not a law that the toll would end. The T-SPLOST is mandated by a law. It has to end and be re-voted on in 10 years. Or, if the money is raised before 10 years it will end at that point.
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
5:14 pm
JDW
It is not just congestion/transportation that has forced us into this decline. It is also lack of resources, i.e. water, cheap available land, poor schools, poorly trained workforce for today’s jobs, crime, high income tax rate compared to other neighboring states, too many counties and jurisdictions, and lack of cooperation of all the different levels of government. So, there is plenty we can be working on, until we come up with a decent transportation plan.
md
May 31st, 2012
5:19 pm
And rafe is correct……I said “start” in Vadalia…..
“Agriculture contributes more than $68.9 billion annually to Georgia’s $719.8 billion economy.”
Very little of it inside atl metro……………
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
5:28 pm
There was a tax on our phone bill that lasted well into the 1990’s, that originally was placed there temporarily, to finance the Spanish American War. People are creatures of habit, after awhile they just pay these taxes, never questioning what they are for or why they are still in place. Government doesn’t even send a thank you card!
@@
May 31st, 2012
5:38 pm
Romney’s favorability rating has jumped 13 pts among women…predominantly unmarried women.
hmmmm
Dave
May 31st, 2012
5:57 pm
Since we seem to be balkanizing infrastructure and transit, how about some gates on highways outside the perimeter and charge those folks with non-metro car tags and driver’s licenses to use our stuff? They can return the favor of course. While we’re at it, the possibly new city of Brookhaven could put up gates and charge the rest of us to use the roads the proponents say will be better than maintained than DeKalb currently does. Then there’s the gate at the entrance to….oops, that one’s already there.
dabir dalton
May 31st, 2012
6:25 pm
Kyle wrote: The promise to end the 400 toll once the bonds were paid off was just that: a promise by politicians, the kind of pledge that is — or should be assumed to be — made to be broken.
________________________
The sad truth is that there is no such thing as an honest politician since truly honest individuals don’t become politicians and remain honest. The system is corrupt and corrupts absolutely.
md
May 31st, 2012
7:21 pm
And so it begins:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/31/nyregion/bloomberg-plans-a-ban-on-large-sugared-drinks.html
When the gov’t gets big enough to tell us all how to live, it’s all down hill from there…….freedom and liberty will be an after thought.
Next will be all sugary snacks, then Mickey D’s, then m&m’s, then………..
aps
May 31st, 2012
7:28 pm
I’ve not heard any answer to the question of what our state portion of the tax on a gallon of gas being used for. Currently it is around 28 cents per gallon.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 31st, 2012
7:36 pm
“The proposed national sales tax is called Fair Tax, but that should be capitalized so that it is not confused with the issue of fairness of taxes.”
Yeah, ’cause taxing everybody at the same rate while making sure that there are no deductions and no one pays taxes on the basic necessities of life is inherently unfair, right, MaryV?
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 31st, 2012
7:38 pm
Michael Bloomberg is a putz.
Hillbilly D
May 31st, 2012
7:57 pm
I don’t believe anything I hear and only half what I see.
Now that we have Photoshop, I don’t even believe half of what I see. Ain’t progress a grand thing?
Rafe Hollister- trying to save the Choom Gang
May 31st, 2012
8:12 pm
Hillbilly
Right! But as someone once said, some people will fall for anything. If you can’t verify it with your own investigation, probably not smart to believe anything.
md
May 31st, 2012
8:17 pm
“If you can’t verify it with your own investigation, probably not smart to believe anything.”
And there in lies part of the problem, as the internet is full of phony stories or articles with bad info. Can’t even trust your own investigation anymore……….
Hillbilly D
May 31st, 2012
8:35 pm
And there in lies part of the problem, as the internet is full of phony stories or articles with bad info.
I just go on the assumption that everybody has an ax to grind or an angle to play. It’s like watching the talking heads on TV, every one of them is pushing some agenda, usually that they will benefit from personally, in one way or another.
Of course, I was a cynic long before there was an Internet.
MatthewThomas103
May 31st, 2012
10:02 pm
We have to think critically about this. With the funds that are raised for these projects it will include maintenance for things such as rail during the early years. After that with the expected growth of our city, because our city grows every year, more residents will be paying for transit and assisting with the costs. Yes the initial outlay is major but the returns from revenue and other major projects and events that will come will more than pay for it.
mountain man
May 31st, 2012
10:12 pm
How long will TSPLOST tax us? Same length of time as the Ga 400 toll.
Hillbilly D
May 31st, 2012
10:45 pm
because our city grows every year,
If you mean the Metro area that’s true but the City of Atlanta proper had 496,973 in 1970, compared to 420,003 in 2010, according to the Census Bureau.
JDW
May 31st, 2012
10:52 pm
@Rafe…”may be wrong, but I believe that agricultural production throughout Georgia brings in more money than any other business sector.”
As usual yes you are wrong. Agiculture in total brings in $68.9 billion annually with a Farm Gate Value (value of the crops) for the state of about $12 billion.
Coke alone is more than $46 billion in revenue compared to that $12 billion.
JDW
May 31st, 2012
10:54 pm
@Rafe…point being that the economic engine of the state is the Metro area. Choke it off and you kill the economy of the state.
Ted
May 31st, 2012
10:56 pm
Can anyone post a cite to the list of projects?
JDW
May 31st, 2012
10:58 pm
@md…”Agriculture contributes more than $68.9 billion annually to Georgia’s $719.8 billion economy.””
And for the mathematically inclined that would be less than 10% i.e. a SMALL portion. Not irrelevant but small. Why do you want to starve the engine?
Hillbilly D
May 31st, 2012
11:00 pm
How much of Coke’s $46 billion is generated in Georgia?
JDW
May 31st, 2012
11:01 pm
@Ted…http://dot.ga.gov/localgovernment/FundingPrograms/transreferendum/Pages/ProjectList.aspx
JDW
May 31st, 2012
11:05 pm
@Hillbilly D…”How much of Coke’s $46 billion is generated in Georgia?”
Way more than $112 million in onions…point is that the Metro Area is the main economic engine in this state. Choke it with traffic, poor infrastructure, substandard education or lack of water and this state looks just like Mississippi. We have ignored the regions needs for the last 10 years and now we have an opportunity to do something that is likely 70% to 80% correct…do you want to fight the last bit while we continue to wither away?
Hillbilly D
May 31st, 2012
11:14 pm
JDW
I don’t live in the Atlanta region, so I don’t have a dog in your T-SPLOST fight, though I will vote against it in my area. I disagree with the idea that Atlanta is the center of the universe.
md
June 1st, 2012
7:29 am
“Choke it with traffic, poor infrastructure, substandard education or lack of water and this state looks just like Mississippi.”
As I said earlier, traffic is the least of the worries……best figure out the water problem (highly unlikely since the source just isn’t there) or it doesn’t matter what happens with the traffic.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 1st, 2012
7:39 am
Vote NO to freeloading and underused transit.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
June 1st, 2012
7:42 am
That gives me a great idea. To fix the “free rider problem” we have with MARTA, where those who use it aren’t paying for it, let’s just require that everyone be forced to purchase a fare card every month, or pay a fine.
DagnyT
June 1st, 2012
1:18 pm
I have read the list and am dismayed by the lack of vision and the amount of pork. Sidewalks, landscaping, airport towers etc… I am voting NO. There are plenty of options for a plan B that would actually make traffic better, like heavy rail from the port of Savannah, or an new highway to bypass Atlanta and go from Rome to Macon, connecting with Interstate 20, or just direct the money to fix the interchanges with enough padding to complete the job in 10 years. To me, it seems like this would become a forever tax for too many small projects such as sidewalks and landscaping.
Having been lied to about Georgia 400 and having read the list and all the little goodies I’ll never use, I’ve concluded that it won’t get me to work any faster.
By the way- if we want to attract business here, why don’t we have some bold visionaries work on the education side and have the money follow the child for any child to any accredited school public or private. That’s the way to get business here. Then, people who wanted transit could live in the city and send their kids to school. Seems to me the education fix would then fix the transportation problem. Maybe our attention is focused in the wrong place. Those of us who live in the ‘burbs do so for the schools.
Ted
June 1st, 2012
6:36 pm
Thanks to jdw for the site. Helps to know the details.
Ted
June 1st, 2012
6:38 pm
That is a great point Dagny on the education connection to traffic issues.
Eric
June 2nd, 2012
12:32 pm
After reading for days on this, I’ve changed my mind. TSPLOST is too frightening and expensive. Everyone please vote NO.
Mike
June 2nd, 2012
10:45 pm
This tax is a boondoogle with quicksand for concrete, a never ending hole.
Mike
June 2nd, 2012
10:49 pm
MD wrote
“As I said earlier, traffic is the least of the worries……best figure out the water problem (highly unlikely since the source just isn’t there) or it doesn’t matter what happens with the traffic.”
truer words have never been spoken. without solving the water shortage problem we don’t have to worry about
population increase.
Ray
June 6th, 2012
11:20 pm
Airport control tower to be part of this 1% local transportation referendum, unbelievable, but for a different reason. The FAA has effectively never denied an airport owner funding for any capital expenditure. Over the last several decades, It is as if the FAA has its their own money presses. Here is proof, positive, times must be really tough.
Still voting NO.
Ray
June 6th, 2012
11:39 pm
Correction (should have known better) – The FAA still has all the money in the world if an airport owner wants to do a capital improvement for a general aviation (corporate jet airport). Cobb County wants the greater metro area to pay for their portion of the grant match (from the FAA and the state) for the air control tower and landing system. Laughable. Do private jet owners still get to land there for free????
Still voting NO.
saw this coming
June 7th, 2012
2:43 am
Just spend baby