What’s Plan B if T-SPLOST fails here, passes elsewhere?
The claim by proponents of the T-SPLOST that there is “no Plan B” — no alternative to the proposed 1 percent increase in the sales tax and the $6.1 billion in regional transportation projects it would build — has always struck me as silly.
Is there another plan already prepared and waiting in the wings should voters reject the tax in July? Probably not. In that sense, the “no Plan B” talk rings true. But surely no one believes local and state officials would just quit trying to speed up the construction of new roads and mass transit. A second option would emerge, probably sooner than later.
That said, there is one real nightmare scenario for those who would have to create a Plan B: The tax fails in metro Atlanta, but passes elsewhere.
We in metro Atlanta tend not to think about the tax referendum outside our 10-county region. But the rest of the state is divided into 11 other T-SPLOST regions, and the tax might very well pass in some of them.
Legislators discussed the reverse case — that the tax would pass in metro Atlanta and nowhere else — before passing the Transportation Investment Act two years ago. But I never heard anyone consider that traffic-choked Atlanta might turn it down while other regions embraced it.
For argument’s sake, let’s say voters in the three regions comprising Augusta, Columbus and Savannah approve the tax. Those regions represent a quarter of Georgia’s 159 counties and one-sixth of the state’s population.
What alternative could then be taken at the state level? For example, it would be seemingly impossible for the state to raise the motor fuel tax only in counties that rejected the T-SPLOST. It’d also be exceedingly unpopular in those counties, and probably counterproductive: Counties slapped with a higher gas tax would likely bleed some fuel sales, and thus revenues, to unaffected counties.
Counties that approved the tax would not watch idly if the state tried to raise another tax on everyone, just to take care of Atlanta. And they almost certainly would raise heck to make sure regions that rejected the tax were assessed the penalties in the law. Among the poison pills for a “no” vote: requiring locals to match 30 percent of state transportation spending rather than 10 percent.
Those penalties also would seem to prevent the state from simply devoting more funds to transportation in metro Atlanta. Complain all you want that the Legislature tries to control MARTA without contributing to its budget, but there are even longer odds of that changing if the T-SPLOST fails.
So, the likeliest Plan B is a do-over for Plan A. That would be a re-vote on a regional tax, probably with a revamped project list, in 2014; that’s when the tax, by law, would next be allowed on the ballot.
And I must say I’m torn about that prospect — although I’m certain it frightens those state officials who support the tax now and would be in the unenviable position of supporting it a second time while running for re-election (cough, cough, Gov. Nathan Deal).
My main hesitation toward the T-SPLOST is that the project list isn’t focused enough on our region’s worst traffic congestion, and that voting “yes” this summer will use up one of our precious few options for improving transportation. A two-year delay is worthwhile if it means we get it right.
But then, I’m not sure why we’d trust the same people to create a better list next time.
In fact, trust is shaping up to be a big factor in this referendum. But that will have to wait for another column.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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160 comments Add your comment
Susan
May 18th, 2012
6:43 pm
That’s a good question for a Wireside Chat, Kyle. From June 4-14, ARC will hold 12 Wireside Chats with local officials from each of the Atlanta region’s jurisdictions. Citizens can participate from their homes and ask questions of their local officials – all questions will be answered during the chat or, if time runs out, by email. Find out more and register for a chat at: http://bit.ly/JjUjXO
yuzeyurbrane
May 18th, 2012
6:57 pm
Insightful analysis.
Rafe Hollister
May 18th, 2012
7:08 pm
We know plan A is poorly thought out, so we have to vote it down to see what is next. Voting for plan A insures there will be no plan B. We can only hope the GDOT learns from their errors. I doubt they will based on past experience, but we can give them a chance if we vote down plan A.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
May 18th, 2012
7:12 pm
Funny, I was just thinking the same thing – obozo’s chances of reelection; SPLOST, all over the windshield.
Ray
May 18th, 2012
7:21 pm
I will never vote for any Sales Tax Referendum that includes streetcars, a tourist attraction doomed to be supported by taxpayers, forever and ever. (See TIA-AT-004 and TIA-AT-007) on the final list at : http://www.atlantaregionalroundtable.com/documents/Fact_Sheets_Final_Investment_List_Higher_Resolution.pdf
Can I hear an amen?
Hillbilly D
May 18th, 2012
7:22 pm
The “there is no Plan B” talk reminds of back in the 60’s when Jim Cherry was head of the DeKalb Schools. Every time they’d have a bond issue up for a vote, you’d hear the same kind of talk you’re hearing now about T-SPLOST. Funny thing, though, whenever a bond issue got voted down, things went right on and the sky didn’t fall and they found the money for the things they truly needed. I’m guessing this thing will wind up about the same.
I don’t live in the Atlanta T-SPLOST region, so what the people there vote for or against is their business but I sure hope this thing don’t pass in my region. As it stands, two counties can basically vote a tax increase for the rest of us. Seems odd to me, sort of like taxation without representation. Nobody ever asked us if we wanted to be part of the region, they just informed us that we are.
My area doesn’t need anymore roads, anyway. We have all we need. The local developer/real estate cabal are the only people who actually want more.
redneckbluedog
May 18th, 2012
7:45 pm
Good article…Another “Road to Nowhere”….
BTW…What is the “Plan B” if Romney is elected, cuts taxes, and increases spending for drilling and the military…..and it doesn’t work…!?!? We end up in another recession/full blown depression…!?!?? Have we given that any thought..??? Because, based on the past 10 years, that would be a likely outcome……
Plan B: S-O-C-I-A-L-I-S-M…!!!!
big t
May 18th, 2012
8:33 pm
TRUST….How can we Trust the State DOT or legislature to even use the money for whats on the list,
without useing some for Special projects of people in power…..
Shine
May 18th, 2012
8:43 pm
Lets hope it fails everywhere and the Republican kooks who created this bs all get tossed out of office. If they need money then take back all the corporate welfare and tax cuts to deadbeat businesses that the rest of us dont get and pave roads. I am pennied to death.
Hillbilly D
May 18th, 2012
9:09 pm
I am pennied to death.
I remember when you paid 3 cents sales tax in Georgia. Now it’s 7 cents, everywhere in the state that I can think of. It’s not all state tax but who cares? You’re still paying 7 cents, no matter where the money is going.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 18th, 2012
9:09 pm
redneckbluedog: What is the “Plan B” if Romney is elected, cuts taxes, and increases spending for drilling and the military
————————
The cronyism of your Idiot Klown Obozo has you confused–the federal government doesn’t spend money drilling. That’s handled by private industry.
If President Romney is elected (pardon the redundancy) the plan is to control spending so that the massive increases in tax revenue, thanks to real economic growth, will actually close Obozo’s un-American deficits.
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
10:12 pm
Enter your comments here
BW
May 18th, 2012
10:15 pm
Kyle
The real problem is that the voters do not trust the Georgia government to properly allocate the amount of money truly needed to “fix congestion.” Keep in mind alot of the congestion happens from allowing developers to build in the burbs without corresponding expansion of local arterial infrastructure. One persons fix may not be the same for another.
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
10:18 pm
I’m not sure I got all this straight. If Atlanta votes for TSPLOST and the rest of the state does not, then, what goes where? Atlanta gets 50 trolly cars, three hot lanes and a bicycle path while the rest of the state keeps dirt roads?
Hmm that’s no fun. (Just been to a patriotic band concert and that was fun! …. STAY ON SUBJECT!) OK
I don’t plan to vote for TSPLOST. I”m going up there and ride on dirt roads with HillBilly. That’s the life!
Clark
May 18th, 2012
10:29 pm
The fact that there is no plan B should mean to voters everywhere that without plan A, there is nothing. It’s much better to taste the batter now and wait for the cake than to get nothing at all!
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
10:33 pm
Good news! The BRAVES defeated the Rays 5-3. Way to go, BRAVES!!
Maybe Wren and Freddie will draw up a recovery plan B if the Big T-SPLOST fails. They surely must have a fine recovery plan. Things are moving forward fast! Just what we need!
We need some new faces in the planners group.
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
10:39 pm
Clark,
Nobody wants to eat an expensive burnt and fallen cake. Nor do they want a plan that cost millions but solves no problems. Time to start over and do it right in the kitchen or the capital.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 18th, 2012
10:48 pm
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
10:18 pm
“I’m not sure I got all this straight. If Atlanta votes for TSPLOST and the rest of the state does not, then, what goes where? Atlanta gets 50 trolly cars, three hot lanes and a bicycle path while the rest of the state keeps dirt roads?”
I’ll guess that you haven’t seen some of the four-lane roads that the state has built in South Georgia and extreme North Georgia?
While Georgia’s 49th ranking in per-capita transportation funding means that we also don’t really fund roads that well in addition to spending virtually nothing on transit (which shouldn’t be all that surprising seeing as though overall infrastructure funding isn’t all that adequate, either; READ: reservoirs and water infrastructure funding), we also at least have not totally neglected our rural roads.
Heck, from GDOT’s standpoint it’s a lot easier to fund and construct divided four-lane roads in sparcely-populated rural areas, where everyone will be happy just to get a new road, than it is in heavily-populated Metro Atlanta where people act like it is the end of the world when GDOT proposes to just merely widen a road by one or two lanes in most places.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 18th, 2012
10:52 pm
There doesn’t need to be a “Plan B” for transportation in case the T-SPLOST goes down, especially for transit, because transit can pay for itself, if managed correctly (and as we see with MARTA and the suburban systems, CCT, GCT and, especially, the currently-defunct C-Tran, that is a very big IF around these parts).
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
11:05 pm
Last Democrat..10:48
Don’t take it too hard. I was just dreaming about the dirt road bit. There are some nice “country ” roads. I was on 416 coming from Clarksville this week and the highway was super with few cars to enjoy it. I sailed along until I hit 85 and a rain storm, neither of which was fun.
I do think we have to do some very careful planning mainly because we will never have enough funds to appease the public need for transportation, not to mention water, etc. etc.
But this is a time when we HAVE to think of the essentials because the public, including me, does not want their taxes raised. Too many citizens are having a hard time making ends meet. The governnment should plan everything on a shoe string budget as far as possible. Let’s start from “there”.
But I like your defense of Georgia’s road. I love this state, roads and all.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 18th, 2012
11:07 pm
Transit can pay for itself through user fees like zone pricing (higher more adequately-priced fares), fees on parking fines, traffic fines, sin taxes (on alcohol and adult entertainment).
Transit upgrades and expansions can also pay themselves by maximizing advertising revenues (properly utilizing advertising space on trains and buses), utilizing Tax Increment Financing (property tax revenues from new development around rail transit stations as opposed to being solely dependent on the very limited revenues from sales taxes).
Transit can also pay for itself by utilizing the same type of public-private partnerships that the state was originally going to enter into to build the reversible tolled carpool lanes (HOT lanes) on Interstates 75 & 575 in Cobb and Cherokee counties where a private partner provides up to one-third of the cash needed to construct a transit line and continues to operate and maintain a selected transportation infrastructure for the life of the contract.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 18th, 2012
11:14 pm
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
11:05 pm
Our taxes don’t have to be raised, especially when it comes to transit (one, primarily because transit can pay for itself at the farebox…See my post at 11:07 for ways to creatively finance transit upgrades WITHOUT raising taxes).
The fact that the powers-that-be don’t really have to raise our taxes to pay for the needed transportation infrastructure means that they are only after more public money to increase the size of their own personal slush funds for themselves and their cronies.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 18th, 2012
11:22 pm
Now when it comes to roads, that is a slightly-different story.
The fact that transit is more than capable of paying for itself and even producing a profit over the long run when managed properly (that management thing is key), means that this tax referendum should have been just to increase our also currently inadequate level of road funding, either through a new proposed sales tax or a proposed increase in the fuel tax (gas tax).
Seeing as though fuel taxes often don’t even cover the cost of road construction and maintenance and that transit is capable of paying for itself (at the farebox, through fees, ad revenue, Tax Increment Financing and public-private partnerships), funding for roads and transit should be kept completely separate and not combined in one sales tax like this proposed T-SPLOST clumsily does.
Hillbilly D
May 18th, 2012
11:28 pm
I wonder how much money the state makes off the gasoline tax for gasoline that isn’t used on the roads, ie: lawn mowers, chain saws, small boats, weed eaters, four-wheelers, tractors that are used somewhere other than working farms, etc. In my neck of the woods, it would amount to a good bit of money.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 18th, 2012
11:30 pm
Heck even if funding for roads remains the same and doesn’t increase anytime soon, there are road expansions that are also fully capable of paying for themselves.
A couple of which, like the widening and addition of truck-only and express lanes to Highway 6/Thornton Road/C.H. James Parkway from I-20 West into Paulding County and the construction of the Sugarloaf Parkway Extension from GA 316 to GA 20 near the Mall of Georgia in Gwinnett County, are projects that would be better constructed, operated and maintained as toll roads so that road funding could be dedicated to making improvements to freeways and surface roads that cannot pay for themselves through tolls.
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
11:36 pm
Last Democrat,
Your ideas seem very sound. I have no expertise in transportation but I might ask a few questions.
Isn’t your first plan about adding cost to entertainment etc. just the same as a selective tax?
As to advertising, I don’t ride MARTA trains very often but I do see that their buses are covered with advertisements. You are sure it isn’t enough?
As for “hot lanes”, perhaps they could have business entities to help finance them. As far as I can tell, the majority of people are rejecting the present “hot lanes”. I never use them but I am not a frequent traveler on those roads. But the idea of jumping into something with various rates that you will find the cost later (even though changing rates are posted) does not appeal to me. Maybe it just takes get accustomed to using them, but saving time at a higher cost is not appealing.
Keep up the good ideas. Are you passing them on to those concerned in government? They might be more responsive than you think but I’m trying to think with optimism.
td
May 18th, 2012
11:40 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
May 18th, 2012
11:07 pm
Transit can pay for itself through user fees like zone pricing (higher more adequately-priced fares), fees on parking fines, traffic fines, sin taxes (on alcohol and adult entertainment).
This is not paying for itself. Name a city in the world that the transit fares pays for the
system?
td
May 18th, 2012
11:43 pm
If you want to pay for our road improvements then just set up toll booths at the boarders on all the major interstates and catch all these people passing through to help pay for our roads. How many people from other states us our roads to get to Florida contribute nothing to the state?
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
11:43 pm
Hillbilly D,.
Wouldn’t it be hard to figure how much gasoline is being used for purposes other than vehicles?
I fill up the car and the lawn mower gasoline can on one trip. How would you tell where the gaoline is going to be used?
Old Timer
May 18th, 2012
11:44 pm
Great column Kyle. As an out of the Atlanta area resident I will vote No on this aborted plan–Then when we are penalized 30% those that formulated this idea will no longer be elected the nex go around. Atlanta is not the center of the Universe.
Hillbilly D
May 18th, 2012
11:47 pm
Dusty
It would but the point is, nothing in this world is totally self-supporting. All of us are getting the short end of the stick some places and the long end in other places.
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
11:52 pm
td
I drove from Georgia to Arizona a few years back and I don’t remember any toll roads at state lines.
Myabe that has changed but I hope not. (Did get a speeding ticket in Texas! Speed trap!!! Another way to pay for roads..)
I think those Florida “snow birds” do stop sometimes in Georgia and “contribute”. Saying “Welcome to Georgia” with your hand out does not sound very appealing.
Dusty
May 19th, 2012
12:14 am
Hillbilly 11:47
Sometime those longs & shorts just don’t even out! Does seem like it.
I heard some great music tonight I bet you would enjoy. The Peachtree Symphonic Winds! A big band of about 45 musicians were playing lotsa good stuff, like Sousa and all the armed forces themes. Even had a patriotic sing along with America the Beautiful, Greenwood’s God Bless the USA and many others. I had a good time..
Now I’d better hum my way right off to bed. Getting late. G’nite…and may all our roadways be bright!
@ Last Dem - 11:07 PM
May 19th, 2012
12:39 am
Sorry, but you have no grasp on the realities and politics of transit, especially when it comes to MARTA.
“Transit can pay for itself through user fees like zone pricing (higher more adequately-priced fares)…” – On paper this would be realistic. However, every black group in Atlanta would be up in arms if this was pushed. Since blacks are the major users of MARTA, this would unduly affect the costs for them since many have to go from one side of town (where they live) to the other (where they work).
“… fees on parking fines, traffic fines….” – taxes are already high on these to take care of City of Atlanta and DeKalb/Fulton County needs. Have you not read about the controversy with ParkAtlanta and street meters?
“sin taxes (on alcohol and adult entertainment)” – Go up much more and you will see a fall in business as customers go outside these areas for entertainment. Oh, but you say tourists will be the ones mainly affected? Guess what, word will get out and conventions will go to more friendly areas like Orlando.
“Transit upgrades and expansions can also pay themselves by maximizing advertising revenues (properly utilizing advertising space on trains and buses)…” When have you last been on a MARTA bus? Do you know the demographics of those who make up the majority of ridership? Advertisers want bang for their $$. Also, check out the advertising on the trains. There is a common theme. Again, why is this? Demographics of ridership. Come on, MARTA is not stupid. They desperately wish to capitalize on ad revenues.
“…utilizing Tax Increment Financing (property tax revenues from new development around rail transit stations as opposed to being solely dependent on the very limited revenues from sales taxes)…” – and how, pray tell, does MARTA (or any other transit system)have the unilateral authority to tax developments around stations – unless they own the property?
“Transit can also pay for itself by utilizing the same type of public-private partnerships that the state was originally going to enter into to build the reversible tolled carpool lanes (HOT lanes) on Interstates 75 & 575 in Cobb and Cherokee counties where a private partner provides up to one-third of the cash needed to construct a transit line and continues to operate and maintain a selected transportation infrastructure for the life of the contract…” – Do you foresee so much transit feeding off of the interstates to warrant a dedicated lane?
Clark
May 19th, 2012
12:40 am
Anyone that believes that transit can directly pay for itself is deluded. The benefit of transit is the increased movement of people which leads to increased economic benefit. As a personal example, I don’t indulge in any Atlanta nightlife. Why? Because I can’t get to and from downtown/midtown/Buckhead without driving which is unpleasant even not late at night. If I could drive two miles, then jump on a train to the action, then jump on a train back out, I likely would and that might mean purchases at several establishments. A single visit isn’t much, but multiplied over several times a month, then multiplied by several hundred? thousand? people, it adds up FAST!
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
1:22 am
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
11:36 pm
“Isn’t your first plan about adding cost to entertainment etc. just the same as a selective tax?”
Of course it is a selective tax, but the cost would not be added to all entertainment, just to adult entertainment (strip clubs, adult novelty purchases like magazines, toys, films, etc) and alcohol purchases. Basically it would be a “sin tax” that would only be paid only when someone chooses to buy adult entertainment items and services and alcoholic beverages….If you don’t buy it, you don’t pay it.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
1:36 am
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
11:36 pm
“As to advertising, I don’t ride MARTA trains very often but I do see that their buses are covered with advertisements. You are sure it isn’t enough?”
The ad revenue that a MARTA takes in isn’t anywhere nearly what they are capable of taking in as they could better utilize that ad space by making more space with changeable electronic signs that show multiple advertisements both on the insides (the overhead ad signs) and outsides of buses (the small billboards on the sides of buses which only show one advertiser at present) and trains.
Replacing those signs with changeable electronic signs and billboards that can show multiple ads instead of only one plastic fixed ad per sign is a great way to create a strong and critically-needed revenue stream by dramatically increasing much-needed advertising revenues (instead of getting paid for one ad per sign, they get paid for six or seven ads per sign which means six or seven times the ad revenue).
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
2:09 am
Dusty
May 18th, 2012
11:36 pm
“As for “hot lanes”, perhaps they could have business entities to help finance them. As far as I can tell, the majority of people are rejecting the present “hot lanes”.”
My proposal is not for HOT lane expansion (the state is on their own with that one as I’m also not all that in love with the HOT lane concept, especially on I-85 where they took the existing HOV-2 (two-person carpool) lane to convert it to a HOT/HOV-3 (toll three-person carpool) lane.
My proposal is to convert Hwy 6/Thornton Rd/C.H. James Parkway in Douglas, Cobb and Paulding counties to a super-artery/expressway and to construct the last remaining section of the Sugarloaf Parkway Extension (Lawrenceville Loop/Mall of Georgia Bypass) in Gwinnett County by making it a traditional toll road.
Now I guess that one could make the tolls (on Hwy 6 and the Sugarloaf Parkway Extension) slightly higher during rush hour to help payoff the initial cost of constructing the road as soon as possible while providing an ongoing revenue stream to operate and maintain the road during its lifespan so that limited fuel tax revenues will be available to maintain other freeways and surface roads that cannot take in toll revenues to pay for themselves.
Though I would not recommend jacking up the tolls on these new roads (Hwy 6 & Sugarloaf Pkwy Ext) anywhere near as high as the tolls are being jacked on the I-85 HOT Lanes because unlike HOT/HOV-3 lanes, where the price is jacked up during the busiest periods of the day to keep the lanes flowing at a minimum speed of 45 m.p.h. for three person-minimum carpools, commuter buses and paying “customers” (READ: those desperate enough to pay the extortion fee to escape the ridiculous traffic jams created by taking away a lane of traffic), the whole idea of a toll road is to keep the lane affordable enough for EVERYONE to use while still being able to raise the funds to construct, operate, maintain and even expand the road as needed during its lifespan.
I’m not necessarily all that crazy about the HOT lane concept, especially the way that the I-85 HOT lanes were converted out of the existing HOV-2 lanes.
If they were going to put HOT lanes on I-85, instead of taking away an existing lane from two-person carpools to do it, they should have ADDED them to the right-of-way by building two or three reversible lanes elevated over the median of the expressway.
Since there isn’t much, if any, right-of-way remaining along I-85 to expand the road horizontally by widening it as the I-85 right-of-way is pretty much built-out between Spaghetti Junction (I-85/285 NE Interchange) and the I-985 split which means that the only place that the road can be expanded is vertically with elevated lanes.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
2:53 am
@ Last Dem – 11:07 PM
May 19th, 2012
12:39 am
“Sorry, but you have no grasp on the realities and politics of transit, especially when it comes to MARTA…….“Transit can pay for itself through user fees like zone pricing (higher more adequately-priced fares)…” – On paper this would be realistic. However, every black group in Atlanta would be up in arms if this was pushed. Since blacks are the major users of MARTA, this would unduly affect the costs for them since many have to go from one side of town (where they live) to the other (where they work).”
Poor blacks do use MARTA heavily but they are not the only users of MARTA as there are many middle-class whites and middle-class blacks, especially on the North (Red Line) and Northeast (Gold Line) heavy rail lines, who often drive to (via GA 400 and/or I-85 NE) and park at a heavy-rail station near the end of the line (stations like North Springs which has direct access onto and off of GA 400 NB & SB via direct freeway ramps and Sandy Springs on the North/Red Line and stations like Doraville on the Northeast/Gold Line) and to work in the city during morning rush hour.
In the evening those same riders will board MARTA heavy rail trains at various stations in Downtown and Midtown ride the trains back out to those same stations out near or at the end of line, gets in their automobiles and drive the rest of the way home so that they can try and minimize the amount of time that they are stuck in traffic (a practice which, by the way, is a prime example of a multimodal transportation system in which both cars and trains are utilized during a commute).
During the spike in gas prices back in 2008, many typically transit-averse suburbanites found MARTA heavy rail to be such an attractive option that parking spaces were often very difficult, if not downright impossible, to find at outlying MARTA stations where many commuters were parking their vehicles and riding MARTA trains to minimize their fuel purchases during that gas price spike.
The MARTA South Line (Red/Gold Line) is also utilized by visiting tourists and conventioneers needing to get between the Atlanta Airport and hotel and convention clusters in Downtown, Midtown and Buckhead.
Though poor blacks do as an individual group utilize MARTA heavily, and despite the popular myth, poor blacks are not the only ones who use MARTA on a consistent basis.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
3:37 am
@ Last Dem – 11:07 PM
May 19th, 2012
12:39 am
“– On paper this would be realistic. However, every black group in Atlanta would be up in arms if this was pushed. Since blacks are the major users of MARTA, this would unduly affect the costs for them since many have to go from one side of town (where they live) to the other (where they work).”
Converting from a flat, one-way fare of $2.50 to a zone-pricing graduated fare structure (the farther you ride the more you pay) would actually greatly benefit low-income riders by raising the increased revenues needed to provide more bus and train service, bus and train service which increasingly has been cut to the bone over the last decade.
Increasingly bare-bones transit service does no one any good. It doesn’t benefit the middle and higher-income single-occupant vehicle commuters who get stuck in horrifically lengthy traffic delays in ridiculously-long traffic jams on congested metro freeways with few other commuting options and it especially doesn’t help low-income and poor riders with few, if any, other commuting or travel options.
If transit service is to improve and transit options are to increase and expand, fares will have to increase so that there can be an increased and dependable revenue stream to provide the high level of quality service necessary to increase mobility and relieve severe traffic congestion in this major population center of six million people.
Though one consolation is that low-income riders can receive frequent-rider and hardship discounts so that they can pay smaller fares, but if we continue trying to keep the fares as low as possible to accommodate low-income riders then pretty soon, there won’t be any buses or trains to ride as MARTA will drown in a sea of red ink.
Being dependent solely upon very-limited sales tax revenues and rockbottom fares while sitting around and waiting for pigs to fly and hell to freeze over for a tax-averse state legislature to dramatically raise taxes on a tax-averse citizenry to the level of a Massachusetts, Illinois or New York to fund critically-needed transit expansion just simply is not a recipe for economic success, it has been and it never will be, especially in a state dominated by conservative right-leaning politics where low taxes and smaller, more efficient government is the ideal goal.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
3:53 am
@ Last Dem – 11:07 PM
May 19th, 2012
12:39 am
““sin taxes (on alcohol and adult entertainment)” – Go up much more and you will see a fall in business as customers go outside these areas for entertainment. Oh, but you say tourists will be the ones mainly affected? Guess what, word will get out and conventions will go to more friendly areas like Orlando.”
I agree, which is why we don’t want to increase sin taxes to the point where we try to get all of the revenue we need from one source.
The whole idea is to obtain revenue from MULTIPLE sources, not just from sin taxes, but also from fees on parking fines and traffic fines (which is only one way that the majority of transit-heavy cities all over obtain at least a portion of revenue to fund transit operations), advertising revenues, Tax Incremental Financing (revenue from new development around stations), fares and public-private partnerships.
No successful business or venture puts all of their eggs in one basket and only obtains revenue from only one source (like MARTA currently seeks to obtain most of their revenues primarily from the one-percent sales tax levied in Fulton and DeKalb Counties while almost completely disregarding the farebox where MARTA takes in revenue from each individual passenger everytime they board).
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
3:57 am
The money to dramatically improve transportation (roads and transit) in this mobility and congestion-challenged town is out there in an abundance.
We just need to start looking under rocks and finding it.
We need to be resourceful and get away from the misguided, shortsighted, prehistoric thinking that the only way to fund transportation improvement is to raise taxes sky-high to the level of a high-tax state (an Illinois, a California or a Northeastern state) or a foreign socialist country.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
4:11 am
“When have you last been on a MARTA bus? Do you know the demographics of those who make up the majority of ridership? Advertisers want bang for their $$. Also, check out the advertising on the trains. There is a common theme. Again, why is this?Demographics of ridership.Come on, MARTA is not stupid. They desperately wish to capitalize on ad revenues. ”
By upgrading the level of service (lower headways, higher-frequency trains, a much more visible and vigilant security presence, etc) to appeal to and attract more riders across all socioeconomic classes, the agency will automatically expand the demographics to which advertisers can sell their products which will increase the amount of revenue.
Greater advertising revenues can also be gained by replacing the plastic signs that each only show one advertisement on the insides and outsides of trains with changeable electronic signs that show multiple advertisments (six or seven ads per sign = six or seven times the ad revenue).
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
4:32 am
@ Last Dem – 11:07 PM
May 19th, 2012
12:39 am
““…utilizing Tax Increment Financing (property tax revenues from new development around rail transit stations as opposed to being solely dependent on the very limited revenues from sales taxes)…” – and how, pray tell, does MARTA (or any other transit system)have the unilateral authority to tax developments around stations – unless they own the property?”
Although MARTA does own property around some of its stations, you are right, MARTA does not have the unilateral authority to tax developments around stations, but the muncipalities (Fulton and DeKalb counties) in which MARTA operates in, along with the state, do have the authority to divert a portion of future property tax revenues from future development towards MARTA.
North Carolina is using the Tax Incremental Financing method to finance the construction of a commuter rail line along an existing Norfolk Southern freight rail line that parallels I-85 between Charlotte and Lexington, NC as it does not require the politically-difficult task of raising sales taxes in a tax-averse political (and economic) climate.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
5:46 am
Clark
May 19th, 2012
12:40 am
“Anyone that believes that transit can directly pay for itself is deluded.”
If properly placed toll roads can pay for themselves, so can properly placed rail transit lines.
Funding transit in the same or similar way that toll roads are funded will help to get the critically-needed infrastructure up-and-running and of use to the commuting public much sooner than sitting around and waiting for state government to make the wildly politically-unpopular move of substantially raising sales taxes to fund it.
Road Scholar
May 19th, 2012
6:07 am
Will @ 10:48:
“Heck, from GDOT’s standpoint it’s a lot easier to fund and construct divided four-lane roads in sparcely-populated rural areas,..”
Do you realize those 4 lanes were dictated by the Governor in the GRIP (Governor’s Road Improvement Program)? And many were paid for with Bonds that are still be payed off at abut $400M a year? I agree that these roads, built as surface arterials, have had limited affect to jobs and benefits to the state. But to imply these were “easier” since they were in the “boonies” is wrong. All environmental laws and permits and approvals had to be a cleared.
Kyle, what are the “right projects” in your opinion?
Oh, and the money raised by TSPLOST HAS to be spent only on the projects listed, as per the law!!!
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
6:37 am
td
May 18th, 2012
11:40 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
May 18th, 2012
11:07 pm
Transit can pay for itself through user fees like zone pricing (higher more adequately-priced fares), fees on parking fines, traffic fines, sin taxes (on alcohol and adult entertainment).
………”This is not paying for itself. Name a city in the world that the transit fares pays for the
system?”………
Better yet, instead of naming only one city in the world that the transit pays for the system, I’ll name FIVE cities in the world (all in Asia, all with distance-based fare structures) where transit not only pays for the system, but also turns a PROFIT…
5-Taipei (farebox recovery ratio of 119%),
4-Singapore (farebox recovery ratio of 125%),
3-Osaka (median farebox recovery ratio of 130% on two systems),
2-Hong Kong (farebox recovery ratio of 149%),
1-Tokyo (farebox recovery ratio of 170%)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio#Farebox_ratios_around_the_world
And though there is no system in North America that completely pays for itself (although Toronto’s GO Trains somewhat come close by recovering just under 90% of it overall costs at the farebox), by comparison, MARTA only recovers just under 32% of its cost at the farebox, a farebox recovery rate which is clearly NOT a recipe for success in a major international metro area and population center of six million with major congestion and mobility issues.
Though the examples of systems that have turned a profit are all in Asia, at least we know that there is somewhere in the world where not only does transit actually pay for itself, but it also turns a profit.
That doesn’t necessarily mean that Atlanta should try an follow the Asia transit model per se, but it does mean that we can aim to make transit a very popular service that has wide appeal to a large swath of demographic groups instead of concentrating on merely just trying to provide a bare-bones mode of transportation of last resort for those with no other choices and no place else to turn.
The “tax-subsidized, as cheap as possible, bare-bones, option of last resort for those who have no other choice” approach to transportation does not seemed to have worked for us over the last decade-and-a-half, is not working for us now and is definitely NOT a recipe for long-term success.
Ayn Rant
May 19th, 2012
6:54 am
The Asian “fare box” recovery figures include operating costs only; capital costs, including construction, acquisition, and upgrade are paid directly by municipal and national taxes without a lot of political hassle. Rapid, reliable rail transit is as essential to urban areas as veins and arteries are to the human body.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
7:41 am
Road Scholar
May 19th, 2012
6:07 am
Will @ 10:48:
““Heck, from GDOT’s standpoint it’s a lot easier to fund and construct divided four-lane roads in sparcely-populated rural areas,..””
“Do you realize those 4 lanes were dictated by the Governor in the GRIP (Governor’s Road Improvement Program)? And many were paid for with Bonds that are still be payed off at abut $400M a year? I agree that these roads, built as surface arterials, have had limited affect to jobs and benefits to the state. But to imply these were “easier” since they were in the “boonies” is wrong. All environmental laws and permits and approvals had to be a cleared.”
I know that environmental laws, permits and approvals still have to be cleared for road construction in rural areas, but that’s not what I was referring to.
The building of four and five-lanes out in rural areas is easier because the acquisition of land for roadbuilding and road-widening is cheaper and much-less politically-taxing.
When GDOT proposes to build or widen a road out in a remote rural area, other than maybe a handful of concerned environmentalists, there often isn’t necessarily an overabundance of loud and rambunctious angry opposition to the project.
Heck, in many remote rural areas, people may even be excited about getting a new or dramatically-improved road to ride on at the very least.
But if GDOT proposes, to let’s say, build an outer loop road (Outer Perimeter) or outer bypass (Northern Arc) through the exurbs of Metro Atlanta, or proposes to widen a SEVERELY-congested and often totally-gridlocked I-75 through Cobb County to better accommodate the already crushing vehicle traffic that is currently using the now under-capacity suburban road, then all hell breaks loose.
When proposing to widen or build a rural four-lane there’s often only sparcely-populated farmland or woodlands and maybe even the occasional swamp to consider.
But when proposing to widen an I-75 through heavily-populated and much more densely-developed Cobb County, there’s dozens of apartment complexes with thousands of people living in them, there’s hundreds, if not thousands, of single-family homes and there’s very valuable commercial and industrial property that contributes millions of dollars of property tax revenues to local governments that hugs the route of the proposed widening.
There’s also thousands of people who are concerned about increased noise from a widened freeway, there are even more environmentalists who come forward to loudly object to the road being widened yet again, there’s big city media outlets who sensationalize the proposal and make it a major news story, there’s a more densely-populated public which angrily objects to the mature and asthetically-pleasing tree line being cut down to make way for a wider road, there’s transit activists who loudly question why more transit alternatives are not being provided or considered first and foremost instead of widening the road.
When proposing to build roads in exurban areas that are in the path of approaching suburban development, GDOT has also to deal with landowners who oppose the proposed road because they want to sell their land to the highest-bidding real-estate developer who wants to build like a zillion new houses instead of having their land taken by Eminent Domain and being reimbursed not nearly as much as they would made by being able to sell to developers (…See the path of the erstwhile Northern Arc where the much of the land that was in the path of the proposed highway was quickly sold-off to developers and permitted for new homes within months of the road project being cancelled in 2003…Also see how a sitting governor and entire political party was defeated at the polls due in part to public dissatisfaction over that increasingly unpopular road project).
There’s also very uncooperative, if not downright adversarial or hostile, local politicians who don’t want to see their local property tax revenues reduced and don’t want to take the blame for letting an unpopular road-widening project occur on their watch and who will use the mounting unpopularity of the proposed project as an opportunity to grandstand to their increasingly disgruntled constituents who have whipped up into an oppositionist frenzy by said big-city media outlets.
Also, when they perform rural road construction projects, GDOT personnel often don’t get personally attacked by the public as crooked idiots and morons on the take from road construction companies, as they often do when they attempt to widen and sometimes just perform routine maintenance on urban and suburban highways.
….See what I mean about road construction projects being much easier, politically, to complete in rural areas?
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward...Again)
May 19th, 2012
7:43 am
Roads are essentially 100% funded by users through gas taxes, including both capital and operating expenses.
There is no non-parasite-maintenance-based reason transit should be any different. User pays.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
7:57 am
Ayn Rant
May 19th, 2012
6:54 am
“The Asian “fare box” recovery figures include operating costs only; capital costs, including construction, acquisition, and upgrade are paid directly by municipal and national taxes without a lot of political hassle.”
The Asian countries mention are all also either super densely-populated socialist countries or countries with a very-heavy socialist element to them where extensive horizontal road building and widening are not really all that much of an option transportation or land-wise like in the U.S., where there is a really strong libertarian tradition that must be honored when considering transportation options.
“Rapid, reliable rail transit is as essential to urban areas as veins and arteries are to the human body.”
That is something that we are just starting to realize and recognize here in Atlanta and Georgia after a few decades of crushing growth have turned many of our major roads into parking lots at rush hour.
The question is how are we going to fund that rapid, reliable transit?
Are we going to sit around and wait until the end of time for a seemingly disinterested state legislature and corrupt bureaucracy to raise everyone’s taxes to the level of a business-adverse state in the Northeast?
Or are we going to come with a creative and innovate way to MUCH SOONER fund, build and make operational the infrastructure that we seem to be so desperately in need of?
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
8:04 am
Lil’ Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward…Again)
May 19th, 2012
7:43 am
“Roads are essentially 100% funded by users through gas taxes, including both capital and operating expenses………….There is no non-parasite-maintenance-based reason transit should be any different.User pays.”
Exactly.
Users pay for roads, users should pay for transit.
User fees, NOT increasingly heavy but yet still limited tax subsidies, should be the dominant source of funding for transit.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward...Again)
May 19th, 2012
8:11 am
Prove that the transit system we HAVE can break even on its own without taxpayer subsidies and then we’ll talk about doing more transit.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
8:20 am
Lil’ Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward…Again)
May 19th, 2012
8:11 am
“Prove that the transit system we HAVE can break even on its own without taxpayer subsidies and then we’ll talk about doing more transit.”
That’s a really good challenge. I don’t think that anyone around these parts really cares enough to take you up on it anytime soon, but it is still a really good challenge to issue and have out there, at least conceptually.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 19th, 2012
8:40 am
Plan B: S-O-C-I-A-L-I-S-M…!!!!
…..Check it out Beavis..heh heh.. Europe is imploding financially…yeah yeah… heh heh we need Socialism here.
My dog is smarter than the dawg in here!
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward...Again)
May 19th, 2012
8:43 am
That’s right, last Democrat. The transit experts designed MARTA and put trains and buses where they had the best chance for the highest ridership, and it’s a failure. Even the low-hanging fruit isn’t working out. It might, if they charged what was required to continue building and operating an efficient, safe system.
Let the users pay. Let the market speak. Right now, it’s saying “build more roads”.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward...Again)
May 19th, 2012
8:57 am
Wow…MARTA fares only cover one third of operating expenses (and none of the capital expenses).
Time to triple or quadruple fares.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
9:07 am
Roads are expensive. We don’t need roads. We need tax cuts.
GDRLA
May 19th, 2012
9:10 am
I am originally from the Central Florida area (Orlando/Tampa) – I go there often to visit – FLA officials seem to have it right – Orlando (mostly) & other areas have an extensive network of TOLL Roads – those who choose (like me after several years of delay) pay to use the road – I have one of the SunPass Transponders on my vehicles which I take to the area – & if I choose to not pay I can spend a couple of additional hours of travel time going down Highway 441, US 27, or otherwise harking back to those good ole days of the fifties when it took my Dad 2 days to get to Atlanta from Tampa…Why can’t GA follow the ‘best practices’ of other states, regions, & authorities instead of continually trying to recreate the wheel?
Rafe Hollister
May 19th, 2012
9:11 am
Have you ever thought what good the 16B dollars the Oblama regime had wasted on their green energy folly, could have done for improving our roads? Talking about p***ing your resources away.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
9:14 am
Have you ever thought about what good the trillion dollars the Bushwhacker klan had wasted on their Iraq war for oil folly, could have done for improving our roads? Talk about trickling down the resources.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward...Again)
May 19th, 2012
9:20 am
Have you ever thought about what good the trillion dollars [Our President Bush spent successfully prosecuting the war on terror and paving the way for 11 years without significant attacks against US assets] could have done for improving our roads?
————-
No.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
9:24 am
When will gas taxes and tolls be increased enough to fully cover the cost of just constructing the roads. Currently, gas taxes only cover about half the cost and new sales taxes do nothing but continue the trend to subsidize the cost of road construction. Increase the gas tax to cover the full cost of road construction. And also never elect another Bushwhacker or one of his klan because all they do is blow tax dollars fighting worthless wars for the benefit of their male Saudi lovers.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward...Again)
May 19th, 2012
9:29 am
When will gas taxes and tolls be increased enough to fully cover the cost of just constructing the roads.
——————–
1932.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
9:31 am
Have you ever thought about why the Bushwhacker klan chose to ignore our President Clinton and his administration’s warnings to be on the watch for attacks from bin Laden and why the Bushwhacker klan let our great country be attacked by a Saudi family member and then did not even go after the Saudi’s at all?
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward...Again)
May 19th, 2012
9:33 am
Have you ever thought about why Clinton ignored his own warnings and allowed bin Laden to operate freely, without fear of the U.S., and turned down the Sudan’s offer to deliver bin Laden to U.S. custody?
atlmom
May 19th, 2012
9:37 am
how about all that land that is used for parking? what a waste…wouldn’t it be better if there was something else there?
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
9:46 am
Thank God our great President Obama was elected. He saved us from the absolute failure that was the Bushwhacker and our great President Obama took out the man that the Bushwhacker had been warned about, bin Laden.
killerj
May 19th, 2012
10:00 am
After watching for 30+ years wasting millions of dollars on I-285 from the Federal Government(not to mention certain co. & people who benefit from it) you would be a fool to raise something you would never see go back down, not to mention in less than 5 years will be asking for more,you have a state that can,t even manage education let alone transportation,”VOTE NO”,lets go to plan “C”,private busisness to make it right.
td
May 19th, 2012
10:05 am
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
9:46 am
Obama sure did take out Osama (only good thing he has done in 3 1/2 years in office). He did not know enough about the military so he continued the Bush doctrine and followed the Bush plan in Iraq for Afg. and doubled the number of troops.
carlosgvv
May 19th, 2012
10:24 am
If any of you think the Georgia politicians will honestly spend this tax money on highway projects, and not on pet pork projects, then, by all means, vote yes.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 19th, 2012
10:31 am
Praise Allah our great Idiot Klown Obozo was elected. He saved us from the absolute failure that was 5% unemployment, measly $300 billion deficits, and smaller numbers of parasites on the dole.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
10:47 am
Gasoline taxes and motor vehicle taxes only covered 0.9 percent of the expenditures used for roads in Georgia in 2008. When will people that use the roads start paying for their roads instead of pawning the costs off on others. And thank God that the Bushwhacker and his klan can no longer do this great country any more harm. Georgie the Bushwhacker will go down in history as the worst excuse for a Supreme courst selected leader in history. Right next to Ronnie Bonzo Raygun. What a loser.
sirwinston
May 19th, 2012
11:06 am
True in all comments but the the real facts are….GDOT are not running out of money. They want to make everyone pay for their continuing mistakes they are making again and again. Look at the Toll-Road G-400, already paid for but they keep making you pay to drive on it in so many different ways using all of the recent things they have put into affect; however, none of it is working. To end this, it is time they start using all of the stockpile of money they are not telling us about….when that is used, then come up with a good, workable and reasonable Plan-B, C or D. The highways and byways being built goes right back into the grady curve and eveyone is trapped! So stop asking the citizen of Georiga to pay more and more with all of the SPLOST you all keep coming up with!
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward...Again)
May 19th, 2012
11:20 am
“Gasoline taxes and motor vehicle taxes only covered 0.9 percent of the expenditures used for roads in Georgia in 2008″
————————-
Bull.
Georgia collected $921 million in gas taxes in 2011 and the budget for the entire DOT was $682 million.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 19th, 2012
11:20 am
And thank God that the Bushwhacker and his klan can no longer do this great country any more harm
President Pumpernickel has done nothing but whine and campaign for 3 1/2 years. What a loser.
Dusty
May 19th, 2012
11:32 am
Ten percent Fewer calories and even lesser amounts of intelligence, @ 10:47
PLease pack up your poison pen paid persistent propaganda for political purposes and move along. We know who is president now and he is the one making mistakes and piling on debt. President Obama!!
Every time you post, one of the half dozen Democrats in Georgia decides to vote for Romney. You will probably be the last man standing. Enjoy!
Rafe Hollister
May 19th, 2012
11:35 am
If it was not for Bushwacker, Oblamer would be unable to speak; not a bad idea actually. He can’t begin a sentence without mentioning Bush and what he inherited.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
11:39 am
Dusty,
Say pretty please. You Bushwhacker tool.
zeke
May 19th, 2012
11:45 am
Hopefully voters in the Atlanta area will show at least some little intelligence and vote no on this socialist third world plan boondoggle! All marta related plans and other rail/mass transit plans including beltline and trolley must be dropped! They will do nothing to reduce congestion! Instead, the outer loop along with several direct route by passes need to be the plan! Very limited access on each, with the idea to route traffic away from the city that needs not to be in the city! Ban all commercial vehicles that have no destination in the city from coming in and force them to use the loop or a bypass to get around the city! AND ENFORCE IT WITH STIFF FINES AND PENALTIES! THAT WILL AT LEAST HELP SOLVE THE CONGESTION!
Blueprint for Plan B
May 19th, 2012
12:05 pm
There is a blueprint for Plan B — and it should be acted upon BEFORE Plan A fails:
http://www.north-x-northwest.com
Dusty
May 19th, 2012
12:22 pm
Now with 10 % less @11:39
Please, my pretty, go away. You Obama oddity!
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 19th, 2012
12:35 pm
What Plan B might look like depends on how badly the referendum fails. If it’s close, tweaks based on certain area’s votes will be made. If it’s a wipeout, then the plan likely gets scrapped and something more rational goes before the voters in 2014.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
12:36 pm
Georgia collected $921 million in gas taxes in 2011 and the budget for the entire DOT was $682 million.
Bull yourself. Georgia collected $366,344,100 in 2010 from its 7.5 cent per gallon tax. And your number said nothing about the percentage of road construction, design, maintenance, etc., cost in the state of Georgia that is covered by fuel tax so double bull on your bull.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
12:37 pm
Please, my pretty, go away.
No. Say pretty please, you Bushwhacker tool.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
12:40 pm
Just say no to sales taxes to pay for any roads. And say no to property taxes to pay for roads. And say no to income taxes to pay for roads. Let the true cost of roads be covered by the fuel and motor vehicle taxes as it should be and just like what is expected of public transportation. It’s the fair thing to do.
ScottNATL
May 19th, 2012
1:00 pm
Let me start by saying I work from home, but I’m voting yes…here are some simple reasons why…
1. MARTA avg weekly ridership is 400,000 trips (this does not include other county transit agencies). If the sales tax does not pass, the 50/50 stays in place, there will be draconian cuts to MARTA. If 2% of those riders are forced back in cars…thats 8,000 people per DAY added to the commute. If you think traffic is bad now…vote no and add about 30mins to your commute if you have one. Thats a lot of extra gas you’ll be buying…more than that 1 cent sales tax I’m willing to bet. I for one was amazed that the regional leaders could agree on a list in the first place and for that they deserve a lot of credit
ScottNATL
May 19th, 2012
1:05 pm
@killerj The only way this tax could go past 10 yrs is for a vote to be taken exactly like this one to approve it…try again (or check politifact GA which rated it as false)
show me kid
May 19th, 2012
1:07 pm
There are examples all over town where the Govt has wasted money on projects that do not relieve traffic congestion. Transportation projects should be fundeed by the users, not by a sales tax, especially with all of the out of state people who come through here and use our roads
Dave
May 19th, 2012
1:21 pm
You are exactly right at the end of the column. The “list” of scattershot projects is not a regional plan and the folks that put it together and would administer the projects aren’t trustworthy – the reasons I’ll be voting no.
Ben
May 19th, 2012
1:36 pm
I just came from the monthly NAACP meeting with 2 Dekalb County commissioners attending who were exhorting those in attendance to vote no. Also the local Tea Party headed by a lady named Debbie Dooley is allying itself with the NAACP to tell it’s members to vote no(for a different reason, though).
Aquagirl
May 19th, 2012
1:45 pm
Bull yourself. Georgia collected $366,344,100 in 2010 from its 7.5 cent per gallon tax. And your number said nothing about the percentage of road construction, design, maintenance, etc., cost in the state of Georgia that is covered by fuel tax
Li’ Barry apparently only drives on Georgia highways, which are the only roads fully funded by GDOT. GDOT also gets Federal funds for some projects. The Federal gas tax does not cover the Federal DOT budget either. Roads are built and maintained by a pretty complex funding system.
Simply put, roads are not paid for by users. The idea you cover your user fee every time you gas up is bull.
Rafe Hollister
May 19th, 2012
2:13 pm
@killerj The only way this tax could go past 10 yrs is for a vote to be taken exactly like this one to approve it…try again (or check politifact GA which rated it as false)
All those folks driving GA 400 and paying a toll would cry FOUL. Promises from a political body are like teats on a boar hog, totally useless. One legislature can not command another to follow its bidding.
Dusty
May 19th, 2012
2:14 pm
Bull fighting is not the way to go.
phillip
May 19th, 2012
2:33 pm
I wonder what the odds are of this ‘failing’ in every single county? I’m certainly voting against it. I voted against the regular SPLOST vote last November in Troup County. It barely passed. I can’t imagine this ridiculous vote passing in Troup, and certainly can’t imagine it passing in Meriwether, Harris, Coweta, and Fayette. I could be wrong.
The Hidden Benefits of Sales Taxes
May 19th, 2012
2:40 pm
But Caterpillar will be relying on an upcoming transportation sales tax vote to fund improvements to U.S. Highway 441, the road the company will use to ship products to the Savannah port.
“That Transportation Investment Act is critical in making Georgia competitive,” Caterpillar CEO Doug Oberhelman said at a Feb. 17 press conference announcing the plant. “We’ll work for it, from all of our employees’ perspective here in Georgia to help get that passed here this summer.”
If Northeast Georgia voters approve the 1 percent tax, it will pay to widen 441 to four lanes between Madison and Eatonton. The other remaining two-lane stretch, between Watkinsville and Madison, can’t be widened because of federal environmental and archaeological regulations, according to state DOT Planning Director Todd Long.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
2:50 pm
Tiberius – Banned from Bookman’s and proud of it!
May 19th, 2012
12:35 pm
“What Plan B might look like depends on how badly the referendum fails. If it’s close, tweaks based on certain area’s votes will be made. If it’s a wipeout, then the plan likely gets scrapped and something more rational goes before the voters in 2014.”
I don’t know, I kind of agree with Wingfield’s assertion that Governor Deal is not going to want to have to support a tax increase while running for re-election in a heated Republican primary in which he is more than likely to receive a stiff challenge from the very conservative big government and tax-averse right side of his party.
I get the feeling that if this T-SPLOST referendum fails, whether by a small margin or by landslide, that there will not be another list put before the public again, nor should there be.
By putting these transportation decisions before voters, the State Legislature has basically punted back to us the voters the tasks of a job that we elected, hired and pay THEM to do.
Rafe Hollister
May 19th, 2012
3:14 pm
A wide road through Putnam county and Eatonton will do no good, unless you can get rid of the speed traps. I think that county, as well as others (insert your favorite) depend mainly on fines for their existence.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 19th, 2012
3:26 pm
Quibble over the exact numbers all you will, but the knucklehead who claimed Georgia’s gas tax only covered 0.9% of what we spend on roads is full of…
Bull.
The Hidden Benefits of Sales Taxes
May 19th, 2012
3:35 pm
I see a knucklehead that claims to know how much the gas tax covers but has nothing but a Lil’ bull to back it up. Very Lil’ bull.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
3:44 pm
zeke
May 19th, 2012
11:45 am
I don’t disagree with you, but the state tried to build the outer loop concept before with very bad political results.
Remember the old Outer Perimeter proposal which, due to very intensely negative public pressure, was scaled back to a proposal for an even more negatively-received proposed “Northern Arc” through financially-affluent, politically-influential Gwinnett, Forsyth, Cherokee and Bartow counties.
While the proposed road was received exceedingly well in Gwinnett County, which has kept the right-of-way of the road clear of development for its own road project since the state’s project was cancelled back in 2003, there was a heckuva lot of resistance and hostility to the Northern Arc proposal in Forsyth and Cherokee counties where local landowners wanted to remain free to sell their land to the highest-bidding real estate developers who were continuing to put up new housing subdivisions left and right out in those exurban counties.
There were also old-line landowners out in Bartow County whose land sat directly in the path of the proposed road who had the political clout to get the project halted from within the state government.
After Roy Barnes and the long-ruling Democrats were thrown out head first by angry voters, partly for pushing an increasingly unpopular road project that was expected to mainly benefit real estate developers and land spectulators, don’t expect the now-ruling Republicans who now completely dominate state government to forget the lessons of the 2002 elections and risk their power by supporting the very same Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc concept that helped to get the Dems their heads and a**es handed to them on a platter and cost them 140 years of almost complete rule over Georgia politics.
The lessons of the 2002 elections are the reason why the outer loop concept remains politically-radioactive to the Republican-dominated state government who doesn’t dare to even say the words “Outer Perimeter” or “Northern Arc” in public.
The angry public backlash against the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc proposal and the political inability to build such that and other critically-needed roads is also why transit must remain an option, because the inability to build an outer loop means that we are unable to pull truck traffic off of busy urban freeways.
Without an outer loop option, our only choice to improve freeway traffic is to attempt to pull as much SOV (single-occupant vehicle) traffic off of local roads, an option which most drivers won’t necessarily like as further unwanted restrictions on peak-hour personal vehicle use becomes more of an undesired reality (see HOT lanes converted out of existing lanes on freeways).
Though I agree that economic development proposals like the Beltline and streetcars, probably should not be a priority in a regional transportation tax question that politicians at the state level didn’t have the guts to decide on themselves.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 19th, 2012
4:01 pm
To be fair, Last Democrat, Forsyth didn’t like it because it cut right through current subdivisions in more than a few instances, not only removing those existing houses, but having a highway right behind remaining homes in pretty wealthy neighborhoods.
Lugnut
May 19th, 2012
4:02 pm
Untie the knot? Except by the proponents own admission this is only a down payment. Before it was “Freeing the Freeways”. Who can forget Purdue’s “Operation Fast Forward”. Now we have actual real governemt officials stating that your commute time will be reduced to mere minutes vs. your current 1 1/2 hours if you will just jack up that sales tax one more time. In fact, we are told by notable radio commentators that jobs are leaving our area because of the congestion and will actually come here if we just jack up one more tax.
Somehow, in the jobs statement, we never hear why a 6% income tax rate and a 9% sales tax rate are attractive to companies and their employees. Think about it – you pay 6% of each dollar just to earn it and will pay 9% for the privilege of spending it. To boot, you get to hear all about our low taxes. How this compares favorably to no income tax states TN and FL will have to be explained to me again.
Bottom line – create more roads – you create more development – and cause more traffic. The proponents even brag about this as the outcome – remember the attracting employers part.
Vote no. When you do, you get to really PO the folks at the real GA DOT – the CW Matthews Company. http://www.cwmatthews.com/
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
4:05 pm
ScottNATL
May 19th, 2012
1:00 pm
The 50-50 restrictions on MARTA’s sales tax revenues is not really the problem with the agency as the 50% of sales tax revenue that the state requires MARTA to put aside for capital costs doesn’t even cover most of its ongoing capital costs.
MARTA’s biggest problem is that they don’t take in enough revenues from sources other than the sales tax, other sources like parking and traffic fines (in almost every transit-heavy city, fees on parking and traffic fines are fed directly into the coffers of the transit service) and the farebox as MARTA’s revenues from fares don’t even cover one-third of its overall costs (MARTA’s exact fare recovery ratio is 31.8%).
The fact that MARTA doesn’t even recover one-third of its costs at the farebox means that its fares are entirely too low for what it is expected to do to alleviate severe traffic congestion and further mobility at the core of the metro area.
It appears that MARTA could begin to help improve its financial outlook by just simply adopting a combination of a zone-based and a distance-based fare-structrure and raising its base fare from what is a clearly-inadequate $2.50 one-way in a tax-averse political environment where they are NEVER going to be subsidized mostly with tax revenues.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
4:17 pm
Tiberius – Banned from Bookman’s and proud of it!
May 19th, 2012
4:01 pm
“To be fair, Last Democrat, Forsyth didn’t like it because it cut right through current subdivisions in more than a few instances, not only removing those existing houses, but having a highway right behind remaining homes in pretty wealthy neighborhoods.”
You are right, that was a VERY major part, too, as to why the Northern Arc went down in flames.
There’s no way that a bunch of wealthy, politically-influential voters, many of them high-powered lawyers, by the way, were going to stand idly by and let a freeway be run directly through, by and behind their expensive exurban homes.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
4:20 pm
Lugnut
May 19th, 2012
4:02 pm
I agree with your post as that is so true.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
4:47 pm
Highways don’t pay for themselves — Since 1947, the amount of money spent on highways, roads and streets has exceeded the amount raised through gasoline taxes and other so-called “user fees” by $600 billion (2005 dollars), representing a massive transfer of general government funds to highways.
Okay. Maybe 0.9% of the cost of roads paid for by gas tax was an overestimate.
@@
May 19th, 2012
4:52 pm
T-SPLOST again!!??!!
Georgia’s penny ante poker game has gone into overtime.
Clayton County citizens have yet to see what their last penny was supposed to buy.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 19th, 2012
4:59 pm
Everyone should be required to maintain the length of road bordering their property. It’s the only fair way.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
5:03 pm
@@
May 19th, 2012
4:52 pm
“T-SPLOST again!!??!!…….Georgia’s penny ante poker game has gone into overtime…..
……Clayton County citizens have yet to see what their last penny was supposed to buy.”
Yeah, they have, they’re looking at it….Absolutely nothing….
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 19th, 2012
5:10 pm
CAMP DAVID, Md., May 19 (Reuters) – U.S. President Barack Obama will press European leaders to ease up on fiscal austerity and focus on economic growth
———
Leave it to Marxist Idiot Klown to think that government austerity and real economic growth are somehow linked.
No wonder his unemployment rate is higher today than it ever was during Our President Bush’s eight years.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 19th, 2012
5:17 pm
Georgia’s 2011 Budget Report says the gas tax raised $848 million. A little higher than the $300-some million the knucklehead claimed earlier.
Your number is…
Bull.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 19th, 2012
5:20 pm
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories: Everyone should be required to maintain the length of road bordering their property. It’s the only fair way.
——–
Well, half of it…the folks on the other side of the road can take care of their half!
411: I-20 construction
May 19th, 2012
5:23 pm
Went to Brimingham the other day — what the heck are they doing in the median of I-20?
It looks like a 10 mile long sidewalk. 3 feet wide and miles long in the grass 10 feet from the road. Anyone have insight??
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 19th, 2012
5:46 pm
“Went to Brimingham the other day — what the heck are they doing in the median of I-20?”
Usually that is a cement base to insert center guardrails into. Keeps them from having to put them on both sides of the highway.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 19th, 2012
5:50 pm
411: I-20 construction
May 19th, 2012
5:23 pm
“Went to Brimingham the other day — what the heck are they doing in the median of I-20?
It looks like a 10 mile long sidewalk. 3 feet wide and miles long in the grass 10 feet from the road. Anyone have insight??”
Maybe they are putting in a steel cable divider in the middle of the highway.
I’ve seen them put those in before by doing almost exactly what you’re describing.
Other than that, I don’t know what else it could be.
Dusty
May 19th, 2012
7:36 pm
Well, after reading all this I am convinced that everybody will soon be working at home. Everybody!
Subdivisions and housing projects will have their own WalMart. Folks just walk over and get what they need.
Entertainmnet centers, airports, hospitals, schools and churches will furnish their own buses.
Who said there are no ideas for the future? You just gotta look!! Call it U-GOTTA.
sheepdawg
May 19th, 2012
8:03 pm
vote no
bluecoat
May 19th, 2012
9:00 pm
Are boarders like renters only with meals thrown in(In toll booths of course)on major hwys.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
May 19th, 2012
9:08 pm
Isn’t Plan B something liberals use to kill little babies with?
ragnar danneskjold
May 19th, 2012
9:45 pm
I’d say “trust” is the issue. I have not yet seen any reason to trust them with more money.
another comment
May 19th, 2012
11:37 pm
This all shows the Republican stupidity. Of course, this is all due to the elected Republican Leader’s punting their duties as elected officials and making the hard calls on the budget. Which would have been to raise taxes to properly fund transit.
I lived in DC 30 years ago and it amazes me that because Georgia has a bunch of raciest, we stil don’t have a functional Marta system. Look at Washington D.C., Northern Va, and Maryland’s Metro system that extends way out into the suberbs, as well as to all areas of major employment. Area’s where their is a Metro station housing prices have risen, areas are revitalized. All classes of people and races ride the Metro to work. We use to ride it from our College in D.C. out to Silver Spring to go to the Grocery Store to save money. As white middle class kids we were not going to pay inner city prices for limited assortment of groceries. So we took the train to the burbs. The train in DC is set by distance you ride, the majority black population of DC does not complain. The white fools that live in the burbs pay the most. The roads simply have not been built and no one wants to be in a 3-4 hour Friday night car commute.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 20th, 2012
5:46 am
another comment: This all shows the Republican stupidity…raciest…stil…suberbs…Area’s…use to…
———————-
Nice spelling, and I didn’t even get to your grammar, punctuation, and capitalization.
If you’re going to call others stupid, you might want to pay a bit more attention to your own posts.
Pot, kettle.
tom rankin
May 20th, 2012
6:59 am
In a time where too many businesses and industries have shut down and too many jobs have been lost…gas and groceries costs have risen…Is not the time to add another tax burden on the taxpayers…especially when trust
for state and local official is at an all time low…
@@
May 20th, 2012
8:39 am
Los Angeles, May 20 — Actor Will Smith slapped a male reporter who tried to kiss him while walking the red carpet at an event.
The reporter from a Ukrainian television station was attempting a pre-screening interview when he grabbed the actor and tried to plant a kiss on his lips.
Smith lost his composure and gave the reporter a light slap and said: “Hey man, yo man, what the hell is your problem buddy,” reports tmz.com
“Hey sorry, he tried to kiss me on the mouth. Joker. He’s lucky I didn’t sucker punch him,” said Smith.
Homophobe!
schnirt
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 20th, 2012
8:41 am
Actor Will Smith during a French television interview this week:
Smith: I have no issue with paying taxes and whatever needs to be done for my country to grow. I believe very firmly that my ability to sit here—I’m a black man who didn’t go to college, yet I get to travel around the world and sell my movies, and I believe very firmly that America is the only place on Earth that I could exist. So I will pay anything that I need to pay to keep my country growing. . . .
Interviewer: Do you know how much in France you would have to pay on earnings above one million euros [under new French President Francois Hollande's proposal]? Not 30%. 75%.
Smith: 75?! Yeah, that’s different, that’s different. Yeah, 75. Well, you know, God bless America.
—————————–
Typical know-nothing libtard Democrat.
Higher taxes for thee, but not for me.
Don Abernethy
May 20th, 2012
8:47 am
For those of us who stay out of down town Atlanta at all costs this will not benefit us. How much of the money generated will fall into the personal bank accounts of politicians involved???
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 20th, 2012
8:47 am
…and the typical know-nothing Democrat notion that paying taxes is what makes the economy grow is just plain ignorant.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 20th, 2012
8:48 am
I was going to go to downtown Atlanta the other day but realized my passport was expired and I hadn’t had the shots.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 20th, 2012
9:29 am
Another comment, you really shouldn’t be posting at 11:37 following a night of drinking and smoking dope.
Just sayin’ . . . !
@@
May 20th, 2012
9:37 am
The Washington Post’s, Al Kamen, is a conspiracy theorist?
Bilderburg…Skull & Bones…they’re out to take over Ze Vurld!!!
I can recall many of the AJC’s leftist bloggers claiming the same thing. But now they have Obama to save them.
Obama wasn’t eager to turn his support of gay marriage into an election-year issue. But….
Gay activists to Obama: What’s next?
No good deed goes unpunished.
@@
May 20th, 2012
9:40 am
Last Democrat:
Yeah, they have, they’re looking at it….Absolutely nothing….
Beggin’ yer pardon.
Our jail is getting an expansion. Wasn’t covered under SPLOST, but still…
it’s something.
A Conservative Voice
May 20th, 2012
9:46 am
@Ray
May 18th, 2012
7:21 pm
I will never vote for any Sales Tax Referendum that includes streetcars, a tourist attraction doomed to be supported by taxpayers, forever and ever.
Ray, I am with you 100%. That is an idiotic idea that will do nothing to help the traffic in Metro Atlanta. That, along with giving money to MARTA is what’s gonna doom the Referendum. Folks, this a “Forever Tax” that will never, I say NEVER go away if voted in. Our State, Counties nor the Great United States of America DO NOT NEED ANY MORE TAXES…….we need to spend the revenues we have better and eliminate those that are an obvious waste. NONONONONONONO to the July 31 Referendum.
Now with Ten Percent Fewer Calories
May 20th, 2012
10:23 am
Plan B is that Deal will make sure that sufficient funds are diverted to cover his road construction/widening obligations that he made in order to get those jobs here from companies like Caterpillar. Those sure are some expensive jobs. Just the widening of 441 for Caterpillar alone is millions.
Bob Loblaw
May 20th, 2012
11:21 am
The state can’t vote a gas tax increase for a particular county.
Big D
May 20th, 2012
12:05 pm
Never give politicians money with out strict and specific instructions. Never think a tax once approved will ever go away. Never think politicians will use the money wisely. Never count on the money being beneficial to your neighborhood. Never allow unelected officials to decide how the money is to be spent. Never think the tax will end when what ever project it was for is completed.
Hillbilly D
May 20th, 2012
1:58 pm
Big D
Words to live by.
Michael H. Smith
May 20th, 2012
2:56 pm
Plan A: Vote No!
Plan B: Vote, HELL NO!!
There’s your Plan “B”.
Now, do you really want to go for Plan “C”?
Most of the politicians in this State don’t have the political moxie to deliver on your nightmare scenario Mr. Wingfield. In fear that we voters might just give them their worst nightmare come true.
Plan “C”: Voted out of office and made powerless.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
May 20th, 2012
4:41 pm
Despite winning three Pulitzer Prizes, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman bombed on Jeopardy! Friday.
By the end of the show, he had amassed a pitiful $1,000 placing him third behind CNN’s Anderson Cooper and NBC’s Kelly O’Donnell.
And look at how lame his competition was, geez.
DagnyT
May 20th, 2012
5:44 pm
The toll on 400 was supposed to be gone after 10 years, but Sonny and his friends extended it behind our backs.
Cobb says vote for the SPLOST or we’ll have to cut back on libraries. It passes by fewer than 100 votes and they cut library hours anyway.
On the list of TSPLOST projects for Cobb… An airport tower and runway improvements. Did we all
DagnyT
May 20th, 2012
5:48 pm
(cont) get George Jetson cars and I missed out? I don’t know anyone commuting by air.
Lastly, if I biked to work, those in the next cubicle wouldn’t like me much. Should I ask my employer to install a shower?
The list is stupid. It makes no sense. Vote NO
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
May 20th, 2012
5:57 pm
DagnyT
May 20th, 2012
5:44 pm & 5:48 pm
The state shouldn’t have lied and said that they would take the tolls off of GA 400 when the bonds were paid off, especially when they knew that they needed to build the two missing ramps between GA 400 & I-85 and that the GA 400 & I-285 interchange needed to be rebuilt.
These are items that the state was well aware of the increasing need of when they starting the constructon and planning of the GA 400 Extension through Buckhead back in the 1980’s.
The state just should have been straight up and said that it would be a permanent toll instead of lying for political expedience.
@@
May 20th, 2012
9:30 pm
A democrat who knows his business.
Surrogate for Obama Denounces Anti-Romney Ad
“I have to just say, from a very personal level, I’m not about to sit here and indict private equity,” Mr. Booker said. “To me, it’s just we’re getting to a ridiculous point in America, especially that I know I live in a state where pension funds, unions and other people are investing in companies like Bain Capital. If you look at the totality of Bain Capital’s record, they’ve done a lot to support businesses, to grow businesses. And this to me, I’m very uncomfortable with.”
Kewl!
DagnyT
May 20th, 2012
10:56 pm
Democrat
So why should I trust them now if they planned to lie about Georgia 400 all along? How do I know the projects will cost what they say they will, that the projects will be completed, that my drive to work will be shorter? From the looks of it, I don’t expect to notice a commute difference.
iggy
May 21st, 2012
7:59 am
TSplost…HELL NO!
A Yes Vote!!!!
May 21st, 2012
8:29 am
I’m voting Yes.
I live in South Fulton which won’t get all the benefits of the splost at all but i do realize this is comprehensive and not just about my neighborhood.
What’s good for cobb is good for south fulton?
You can’t punish this splost for the toll roll authority. that is a different law and honestly, the toll is only 50 cents.
NoWayOnSplost
May 21st, 2012
8:37 am
No one with a functioning brain, can vote for this T-SPLOST. 400 tolls still exist (they shouldn’t) and when was the GDOT audited last? Never? The GDOT had it’s chance to fix this decades ago – they ignored the problem. Which is exactly why you can never trust any politician or anyone in the GDOT.
SBinF
May 21st, 2012
9:18 am
Another penny sales tax…so we can turn all of the highway shoulders into extra lanes?
No thanks, I’ll be voting “no.”
Wingfield On T-SPLOST & Plan B — Peach Pundit
May 21st, 2012
9:43 am
[...] of T-SPLOST at the GOP convention this weekend. Kyle Wingfield has a good piece from Friday that’s worth a full read. An excerpt: For argument’s sake, let’s say voters in the three regions comprising Augusta, [...]
Wingfield On T-SPLOST & Plan B
May 21st, 2012
10:19 am
[...] of T-SPLOST at the GOP convention this weekend. Kyle Wingfield has a good piece from Friday that’s worth a full read. An excerpt: For argument’s sake, let’s say voters in the three regions comprising Augusta, [...]
A Realist
May 21st, 2012
10:29 am
I’m just glad that only a few generations ago, the people had the foresight to invest in our transportation infrastructure. They went beyond the ‘I want it now’ approach so prevalent now, and invested in the future. The result was the current interstate highway system.
Currently, when it comes to transportation, many local folks ask “How does this affect ME now?” With that attitude, the chances of the forward thinking of our parents are diminished, condemning future generations to huge catch-up efforts as they struggle to maintain what is left of their economy. (Yes, good transportation directly affects economic growth.)
Much of this region has not been investing to insure the quality of life for future generations, and it appears that those folks just don’t care that our transportation infrastructure is in the dumper. After all, how does it affect them?
To think that there is a better ‘Plan B’ waiting in the wings requires an incredible leap of faith – an exceptionally unrealistic one. Do you REALLY think that ‘B’ will be better than ‘A’? Do you really think that, with the current obstructionist political environment, an alternative will be devised? By our legislature? Sure, right – dream on! Although the current plan could be better, a replacement will also have its detractors, and people objecting to the choices. Do you think it would pass? How many years do you have to wait to find out? How much economic decline are you willing to endure?
There is the old saying about ‘A bird in the hand’. It applies here.
I don’t like the list, I don’t like the politics, I don’t like the GA400 toll, I don’t like paying more taxes, but the TSPLOST is a damn sight better than doing nothing, and letting the world pass us by!
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 21st, 2012
11:13 am
A Realist, our economic system is not nearly as affected by transportation issues as it is our pathetic education system in Georgia.
More money hasn’t worked there, either.
» Wingfield On T-SPLOST & Plan B Marvin Arrington Jr.
May 21st, 2012
12:07 pm
[...] of T-SPLOST at the GOP convention this weekend. Kyle Wingfield has a good piece from Friday that’s worth a full read. An excerpt: For argument’s sake, let’s say voters in the three regions comprising Augusta, [...]
Hillbilly Lite
May 21st, 2012
1:58 pm
Does anyone truly believe the State will do right us if “given” this money?
DawgDad
May 21st, 2012
2:47 pm
Kyle, this is called “confusing the question”. The existence or non-existence of a Plan B is IRRELEVANT to the vote on Plan A.
I have a sense the T-SPLOST is in trouble, based on the proponents’ tactics recently.
DawgDad
May 21st, 2012
3:04 pm
“I’m just glad that only a few generations ago, the people had the foresight to invest in our transportation infrastructure. ”
A truly relevant question would be “how did they pay for it?” Did they have a T-SPLOST? 7% sales tax rate?
A Realist
May 21st, 2012
4:58 pm
If memory serves right, much of the interstate system was paid via gas taxes (which were proportionally higher than they are today.) There was also a significant general revenue contribution … but, of course, nobody remembers that when we start discussing transit vs roads.
A Realist
May 21st, 2012
5:18 pm
@tiberius … yes, you have somewhat of a point. But businesses aren’t as likely to reject relocation due to marginal education as they are to massive traffic congestion (a symptom of a systemic problem.) There are good spots of education here – and some not so good.
The public is in serious need of education – particularly Economics (not basic level either!) and Sociology. Not the drivel that is supplied via talk radio or Fox – but REAL economics from folks that actually do know it … oops, most of them are viewed as ‘liberal’ because they know what they are talking about… but I digress… (and yes, I did significant work on the grad level in econ… helped me to understand what’s going on, but also to become very frustrated at those that don’t!)
Education in the state has been corrupted via the influx of too much misdirected money on the college level, and has resulted in too much useless testing on the primary level – but that’s another item.
This is about transportation.
Let’s start fixing that first – then we can move on to education stuff.
The Snark
May 22nd, 2012
8:50 am
No “Plan B”? Hell, for the last forty years this town hasn’t even had a Plan A. That’s why we all spend an hour in traffic every morning. And all the little Grover Norquist clowns will make sure it stays that way.
Ignorance is Bliss
May 22nd, 2012
3:38 pm
If majority of people vote this down then y’all better not complain about traffic. No money = no problems solved. Do society a favor and educate yourselves before you criticize a system you know nothing about.