Obamacare costs more than advertised, double-counting edition
I’ve written many times about the budgeting/accounting/scoring gimmicks that allowed Democrats to claim Obamacare would reduce federal deficits when the opposite is true. The latest piece of evidence came from Charles Blahous, an economist and trustee of the Social Security and Medicare programs who recently reported Obamacare’s “double counting” of spending cuts and tax increases means the law will actually increase deficits by $340 billion over 10 years (or about seven Buffett Rules).
Blahous, writing with former federal budget official James Capretta in today’s Wall Street Journal, explains double counting by making an analogy to Social Security:
If we generate $1 in savings within that program, then that’s $1 that Social Security can spend later. If we also claimed this same $1 to finance a new spending program, we would clearly be adding to the total federal deficit. There has long been bipartisan understanding of this aspect of Social Security, which is why Congress’s paygo rules prohibit using Social Security savings as an offset to pay for unrelated federal spending.
No such prohibition exists in the budget process against committing Medicare savings simultaneously to Medicare and to pay for a new federal program. It’s this budget loophole, unique to Medicare, that gives the health law’s spending constraints and payroll tax hikes the appearance of reducing federal deficits. But it is appearance, not reality. If you have only $1 of income and are obliged to pay a dollar each to two different recipients, then you will have to borrow another $1. This is effectively what the health law does. It authorizes far more in spending than it creates in savings.
So, perversely, the “pay-as-you-go” rules that President Obama and congressional Democrats touted as a measure of their fiscal responsibility back in 2009 are precisely what allowed them to engage in this duplicity. Blahous and Capretta explain further:
When Congress considers legislation that alters taxes or spending related to Medicare’s Hospital Insurance Trust Fund, the changes are recorded not just on the Hospital Insurance Trust Fund’s books, but also on Congress’s “pay-as-you-go” scorecard.
The “paygo” requirement is supposed to force lawmakers to find “offsets” for new tax cuts or entitlement spending, and thus protect against adding to future federal budget deficits. Putting the Medicare payroll tax hikes and spending constraints on the “pay-as-you-go” ledger was instrumental in getting the health law through Congress, because doing so fostered a widespread misperception that the law would reduce future deficits.
But the same provisions add to the Hospital Insurance Trust Fund’s reserves, which expands Medicare’s spending authority. Medicare can only pay full benefits so long as its trust fund has sufficient reserves to meet these obligations. If the trust fund has insufficient resources, then spending must be cut automatically to ensure the fund does not go into deficit. The health law’s Medicare provisions prevent these spending cuts from taking place for several more years.
It’s another reason why “paygo” rules (or lack thereof) don’t necessarily make Congress fiscally responsible (or irresponsible). What makes Congress responsible, or not, is its willingness to spend no more than it takes in.
And when Obama and Congress pass a law to take in $1, count that $1 twice, and then claim the ability to spend $2, there’s no way to spin it as fiscally responsible.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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313 comments Add your comment
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
May 2nd, 2012
11:22 am
dummycrats believe that they know everything better than us and therefore have the “right” to protect us from ourselves.
I ask, are you personally acquainted with anyone who’s finances are a complete and utter sham, like the government run by liberals?
In reality, who is protecting us from them?
md
May 2nd, 2012
11:29 am
The bill was never about getting a healthcare bill that works……it was about getting something…..anything on the books while the dems had the numbers to do so……knowing full well how hard it would be to get it off the books later on.
Hence Obama’s back track at the SOTU address where he said jobs would be the #1 focus and came out guns a blazing afterward hell bent on ramming the hc bill through. He/they knew Scott Brown made that big a difference to the big picture.
Now, unless the SC strikes it down, we are stuck with yet another massive entitlement program in the stable with all the other unaffordable programs. The folks all want it, but too many don’t want to pay for it. It’s soooooo much easier pointing ones finger to the “rich” neighbor and his bank account.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
11:33 am
“like the government run by liberals?”
Doesn’t the House to some extent or another sign off on spending?
I agree it is too high……. period, but checking to see if the WH can just spend, spend and spend without any Congress approvals…….
JDW
May 2nd, 2012
11:36 am
@Kyle…if you want to discuss changing the budget rules on this issue that would be a valid discussion.
However to cite an source as you have and lay the resulting conclusion at the feet of a specific President and Congress without noting this bit FROM THE VERY SAME SOURCE
“Medicare spending cuts and tax increases have always been double-counted—recorded both on the paygo scorecard and added to the Hospital Insurance Trust Fund. No budgetary rules were bent.”
Well that seems a bit disingenuous and dare we irresponsibility spun.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
11:38 am
“(or about seven Buffett Rules)”
Too funny, Kyle!
Kyle Wingfield
May 2nd, 2012
11:43 am
JDW: I never said they did anything illegal. They did, however, abuse the rules in a spectacular and cynical way — as Blahous/Capretta explain, this double-counting was done on a larger scale than before.
The rules were abused in order to pass off something utterly fiscally irresponsible as if it were responsible. That is what’s disingenuous here.
Kyle Wingfield
May 2nd, 2012
11:45 am
Thanks, Tiberius. I credit the president with giving us a good alternative measurement for budgetary matters!
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
11:50 am
JDW, a lie is a lie no matter who does it.
But let’s not use the “Everybody does it” defense just because what we told you was happening when the bill was being passed has come to light from another source.
JDW
May 2nd, 2012
11:51 am
@Kyle…”The rules were abused”
The point is that the rules were not “abused”. Is there a loophole that should be closed…maybe. But they no more “abused” the rules than did Mitt Romney by investing his fortune in such a way as to benefit from carried interest.
md
May 2nd, 2012
11:52 am
jdw,
Did you miss this line?:
“There has long been bipartisan understanding of this aspect of Social Security, which is why Congress’s paygo rules prohibit using Social Security savings as an offset to pay for unrelated federal spending.”
JDW
May 2nd, 2012
11:54 am
@md…”Did you miss this line?:”
Nope
Didn’t miss this one either…
“No such prohibition exists in the budget process against committing Medicare savings simultaneously to Medicare and to pay for a new federal program. “
Illegal Alien
May 2nd, 2012
11:58 am
Read or heard where several large corporations were considering dropping their HC plans and let their employees use the government option.
Cost saving to the corporations would be in the Billions. Sounds good for business. The increased tax revenue on business profits will help pay the increased costs to the government.
As bad as it is, single payer is about the only way to reduce HC costs accross the board. Insurance companies are gouging us while making huge profits.
Kyle Wingfield
May 2nd, 2012
11:58 am
JDW: But Romney doesn’t then turn around and say he’s paying twice as much in taxes as he really pays. The abuse didn’t take place in abiding by the rules, loophole included, but in using the loophole to lie — there’s no other word for it, given that the president and former congressional leadership are not stupid enough to think there really are $2 instead of $1 — about the impact of the law on the deficit.
Rafe Hollister
May 2nd, 2012
12:00 pm
Well, if anyone up there was serious, hah, about addressing the deficit or the national debt, they could easily fix the problem, by passing a simple bill using the same language as used in the Social Security legislation.
However, these big spenders do not want to correct the problem. Every dang one of them sat there and parroted the lies fed to them by the Oblama regime. You know the lies about it is not double counting, quoting the CBO figures while knowing that CBO numbers were rigged. They knew that the ten year numbers were rigged by including four years of tax increases and no payouts. Complete total dishonesty. I call it willful ignorance, they ask someone to give them a line to use to parry a question, and never give any thought as to whether it is true or not. They lie to others and to themselves, all to retain power.
Then the bloggers get on the blogs and parrot the lines used by the big spenders, which they know are untrue, but use anyway. It is criminal what is happening to our country, just because people want more than we can afford. As Tom Coburn says, the day of reckoning is coming but we have a choice. We can all suffer some now, or continue to lie to ourselves and suffer greatly in the end.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
12:01 pm
“As bad as it is, single payer is about the only way to reduce HC costs accross the board.”
Single payer changes NOTHING in the cost of health care; only who is the payee.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
12:02 pm
What a surprise! The spenders wrote the rules to allow themselves to spend, spend, and spend some more!
We’re supposed to think the spending is OK, since it isn’t against their rules.
Thomas heyward jr
May 2nd, 2012
12:03 pm
I’m sure John Kerry jr “all your medical money belongs to the state” Mittens “FeeFee” Romney …………………………..will figure it all out.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
12:06 pm
So, libs, how is Obozo going to pay for the impact of this double counting, PLUS the other $1 trillion overrun in costs reported a couple of weeks ago by the CBO?
Progressive Humanist
May 2nd, 2012
12:07 pm
But for Republicans health care should be a for-profit industry. Yeah, that’s the moral position… If you’re a sleaze at your core.
DannyX
May 2nd, 2012
12:09 pm
“(or about seven Buffett Rules)”
Or we could use the payment method Republicans used for their socialist Medicare Part D, a huge tax cut. That ought to do it.
Rafe Hollister
May 2nd, 2012
12:11 pm
http://www.wnd.com/2012/04/more-evidence-obamas-a-depraved-liar/
Mychal Massie doesn’t mince words about Barry’s truthfulness. His opinion, believe what you wish.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
12:11 pm
“But for Republicans health care should be a for-profit industry. Yeah, that’s the moral position…”
It is not for government to decide that which is moral, Progressive Humanist, nor to interfere in the lawful practice of a private business.
Sorry if that bursts your little nanny-state bubble.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
May 2nd, 2012
12:13 pm
Will Newt quietly go away and allow Romney to deal with the arse-whuppin he is about receive come November?
landslide! Mwuahahahahahaha
md
May 2nd, 2012
12:14 pm
“Mittens “FeeFee” Romney …………………………..will figure it all out.”
He already has a better plan…….50 States with 50 programs working on the problem. Beats the hell out of one all power fed monster dictating one party’s whims…………
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
12:17 pm
Progressive Humanist: But for Republicans health care should be a for-profit industry. Yeah, that’s the moral position… If you’re a sleaze at your core.
———–
I suppose conscripting doctors, hospitals, insurers, and investors to work for free is moral.
Why do you support slavery?
Sleaze much?
Jefferson
May 2nd, 2012
12:19 pm
Folks what else do you work for ? Stuff costs, don’t hoard and worship your money, you can’t take it with you. Food, shelter and health this is the good life.
Rafe Hollister
May 2nd, 2012
12:19 pm
Will it be irony or justice, when the USA is finally financially destitute, that the ones who demanded the most and contributed the least, will be the most adversely affected by the situation?
I know who will be blamed, the producers, who didn’t contribute enough to satisfy the ever growing demand.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
12:20 pm
Progressive Humanist, if you have a problem with profit, get out your “will work for food” sign and accept no more pay than will cover your basic living costs.
Anything more and you’re just the typical libtard hypocrite.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
May 2nd, 2012
12:21 pm
I don’t see any lies there Rafe.
Depraved? Does this writer hyperbole much?
Ronnie Raygun
May 2nd, 2012
12:21 pm
Can we use this same stricter budgeting formula to rate the Ryan/Heritage Foundation budget?
Didn’t think so.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
12:24 pm
“Anything more and you’re just the typical libtard hypocrite.”
What is a “libtard”?
When it come to debating issues, name calling is known as a sign of weakness and usually reserved for those unable to articulate their ideas and thoughts in a meaningful and constructive manner
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
12:24 pm
Doesn’t matter, Ronnie, the Ryan budget will still score better than your Failed Messiah’s.
Ronnie Raygun
May 2nd, 2012
12:27 pm
“I suppose conscripting doctors, hospitals, insurers, and investors to work for free is moral.”
You mean like how police, firefighters, soldiers, and teachers all “work for free”?
The concept of a non-profit company paying employees isn’t that hard to understand, if you try. But then again, some people are just stuck on stupid.
carlosgvv
May 2nd, 2012
12:29 pm
So, in an election year, Obama is willing to push a law thru congress that actually costs twice what he says it will? And, Obama thinks no one will notice? Kyle, do you honestly think the American people are that dumb? More to the point, do you think most of us here are dumb enough to believe this story?
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
12:29 pm
Kyle
Speaking of “double counting”, what’s up with the new information saying that the “give aways” to lure the new plant in Covington will be more than twice the original stated amount?
I’m for incentives, but will the Governor or someone on his staff be providing a pay back period for these “give aways”?
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
12:33 pm
When it come to debating issues, name calling is known as a sign of weakness
——-
So is changing the subject.
You can’t refute my arguments, so that’s all you have left.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
12:34 pm
And since I am not for Romneycare or Obamacare, I do think the Obama Administration owes the people some kind of analysis on long term savings, etc due to all this spending to implement the ACA
Common Sense
May 2nd, 2012
12:34 pm
Forward, Forward…..
they will figure out the details later.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
12:35 pm
“So, in an election year, Obama is willing to push a law thru congress that actually costs twice what he says it will? And, Obama thinks no one will notice?”
Obviously, carlos, you didn’t notice that this is an article about the Obamacare law passed in 2010, NOT in an election year (for him at least). And the majority of the work was done in 2009.
And yes, he was banking on you to be that dumb.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
12:35 pm
Barry
Was just asking you a question and making a statement
If you feel the need to get all excited and name call like a kid…. do your thing and continue to demonstrate who you are as an individual
Tear it up
Ronnie Raygun
May 2nd, 2012
12:36 pm
Can Obama pay for everything in his budget with a magic asterisk of cutting unknown “loopholes and deductions” like Ryan & Mittens do in their budget? Or maybe he should just hide things off budget like Bush did with his wars.
The only way to pretend that GOP budgets work is if you believe in magic. Their numbers NEVER add up. So much for those home school educations.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
12:38 pm
Ronnie
Obama’s budget was kicked down Pennsylvania Avenue by both the Dems and Repubs
Ryan’s budget seems to work if we are at 2.8% unemployment
So it appears we have an issue on both sides of the aisle
That Black guy
May 2nd, 2012
12:41 pm
Finn McCool (The System isn’t Broken; It’s Fixed)
May 2nd, 2012
10:22 am
Lil Barry, do you know what AGI is? Adjusted Gross INCOME.
Wealthy people don’t get their money from INCOME.
Finn McCool (The System isn’t Broken; It’s Fixed)
May 2nd, 2012
10:56 am
Fair would be the 1% paying 1% of federal income taxes.
Ok, I’ll play. Then fair would be the 1% earning 1% of all national income
_____________________________________________________________________
So, Finn, do they earn income or not?
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
12:46 pm
Finn thinks investment income isn’t included in AGI.
‘Nuff said on any of his financial or economic opinions.
Progressive Humanist
May 2nd, 2012
12:47 pm
And the funny thing is that the amoral sleazeball hicks like Barry and Tib will vote for Romney, who wrote the blueprint for ObamaCare. They want U.S. citizens to die so empty suits can make a profit (pretty patriotic by the way) and they’re going to vote for the empty suit who thought up the “socialist” health care plan to begin with. But because of their lack of intellect and education, Barry and Tib will be the ones who will need the social services like government health care, social security, etc. because they’ll never be able to make enough on their own (although, like Joe the Plumber, they aren’t smart enough to know it).
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
12:51 pm
LOL @ Progressive Humanist. Funny on so many levels.
There is apparently some mental defect that causes people to think its preferable to vote for Obozo because Romney isn’t conservative enough.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
12:52 pm
Progressive @ 12:47
It is called carrying the water for the top end…….. It is done by the “flocks” on all sides and most don’t even know they are doing it…..
Even those who say they are not D or R, yet vote mostly D or R………. have bucket in hand and both parties love them for it
Illegal Alien
May 2nd, 2012
12:52 pm
Single payer has a better chance of controlling costs. If everybody had HC insurance then those of us that have plans would probably get a break, since we would no longer be paying for those that don’t pay.
real john
May 2nd, 2012
12:56 pm
Lets call Obamacare what it really is… A massive expansion of Medicaid..
Liberals will never admit that they are going to bankrupt this country. My guess it the s@@@ will hit the fan in the next 10 years. This isn’t utopia…We can’t provide everything to everyone. We only have so much money
Rafe Hollister
May 2nd, 2012
1:00 pm
Finn
I knew you would not find anything of value there. I call it willful self deception. See my 12:00 post, there is a great deal of that going on in both parties. That is why we are where we are.
Edward
May 2nd, 2012
1:02 pm
Nobody gives a rat’s a** if poor kids starve, can’t get an education, or die outside the ER because the doors are closed to them. As long as SOMEBODY makes enough profit to afford a car elevator, that’s the American Way!
resno2
May 2nd, 2012
1:03 pm
So they lied… AGAIN!
Garbage in Garbage out
Ayn Rant
May 2nd, 2012
1:06 pm
More whining about the Affordable Health Care Act! It’s working fine in Massachusetts (where it’s called RomneyCare), so what’s wrong with it?
Can you cite some specific reasons why you don’t like the plan? Do you think people with prior medical conditions should be denied health care insurance? Is it wrong to extend health care coverage for young people under their parents’ policy? Should people not covered by an employee health care plan pay higher premiums than others? Should people who can’t afford health care insurance continue to overcrowd EMs so that persons with coverage receive inferior, life-threatening emergency care? Do people in wealthy states like Massachusetts deserve adequate medical care more than poor people in Alabama and South Carolina?
Forget the nickel and dime stuff about the federal health care budget! The government doesn’t have a budget. Those medical expenses will be incurred anyhow, whether paid for by the government, employers, individuals, or charities; who gives a damn whether they pay out of pocket or through their taxes for needed medical care?
And don’t cite lies about “government-controlled” health care! Medical care is provided and managed by the same doctors, hospitals, and clinics that private insurance plans and Medicare rely on.
resno2
May 2nd, 2012
1:06 pm
Edward, what’s your American way? What would be the fair thing to do?
Rafe Hollister
May 2nd, 2012
1:06 pm
Illegal alien.
If everybody had HC insurance then those of us that have plans would probably get a break, since we would no longer be paying for those that don’t pay.
And you believe that, a little self deception, I’d say. Kinda like believing ole Barry, when he said, if you like your plan you can keep it, or when he said, this will lower premiums for everyone.
saywhat?
May 2nd, 2012
1:06 pm
“Liberals will never admit that they are going to bankrupt this country.”
Conservatives will never admit that they are going to bankrupt 99% of the people in this country.
“My guess it the s@@@ will hit the fan in the next 10 years.”
My guess is 8 years if the nightmare of a Republican White House, Senate and House materializes.
“This isn’t utopia…”
Nobody ever claimed it was.
“We can’t provide everything to everyone. We only have so much money”
Republicans appear to believe we only have enough money to make sure it all goes to the top 1%.
JDW
May 2nd, 2012
1:07 pm
@Kyle…”but in using the loophole to lie”
That’s your opinion on what’s happening. I expect reality is far more nuanced. You are mixing buckets of current savings vs. trust fund reserve calculations. If the reserves are never exhausted then the accounting is perfectly legitimate.
In any event, rather than railing on The Administration to tell your version of the truth, it would be far more appropriate to have a discussion on whether the loophole exists and should be closed.
Rafe Hollister
May 2nd, 2012
1:09 pm
Edward
Nobody gives a rat’s a** if poor kids starve, can’t get an education, or die outside the ER because the doors are closed to them.
Since when has that happened in the USA? Hope the rant makes you feel better, and the next time one of those things happens you let the AJC know about it and it will be on the front page.
Jefferson
May 2nd, 2012
1:11 pm
If you don’t share, you stand to lose it all. Socialism or a tax increase, you decide — the poor are starting to organize.
resno2
May 2nd, 2012
1:15 pm
Organize? Did yesterday’s May Day protests have any noticeable affect on ANYTHING?
@@
May 2nd, 2012
1:15 pm
Accidentally posted downstairs:
Reminds me of the hidden coin trick. The leftists are in awe of the magic but in reality, it’s theft by deception.
Kyle, I saw your post downstairs about jaywalking.
Can we refer to him as your next door neighbor? Your lesser half?
J/K
About this:
He’s not here to defend himself, and I’m asking you to tone it down.
He doesn’t give you the same courtesy…but then you’re the better man.
WORD! And it’s final.
schnirt
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
1:16 pm
Who wins a war between Constitutional government and the organized poor?
Rafe Hollister
May 2nd, 2012
1:17 pm
Jefferson@1:11
You prove a point made by the GOP with your comments. Democrats keep the poor on the plantation by providing for their every need and in turn getting all their votes. So, as you point out, if the poor ever learn their plight and organize, they can then blackmail their keepers for more benefits.
getalife
May 2nd, 2012
1:20 pm
Yeah, murdoch and his wsj are so credible.
Not.
@@
May 2nd, 2012
1:25 pm
“My guess it the s@@@ will hit the fan in the next 10 years.”
I always show up sandwiched in the profanity. I’m beginning to take it personally.
Try using some of these #&%~* instead.
TankU!
Ernest T. Bass
May 2nd, 2012
1:27 pm
Why is it that every other first world country in the world has universal healthcare and they are doing just fine ?
They spend less and get better results. They all have lower rates of diabetes and heart disease and their life expectancy is longer.
Sounds good to me.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
1:29 pm
If you don’t work, you stand to have less than those who do. Productivity or poverty, you decide — the rich are starting to consider New Zealand.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 2nd, 2012
1:31 pm
getalife
May 2nd, 2012
1:20 pm
Yeah, murdoch and his wsj are so credible.
Not.
I guess the AJC fulfills all of your Balanced (barf) needs.
The organized poor wont march for long, theyre too lazy!
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
1:31 pm
They spend less and get better results.
——–
They’re also not a bunch of dadgum lardazzes.
Jefferson
May 2nd, 2012
1:33 pm
1917, it was hunger not policy.
Illegal Alien
May 2nd, 2012
1:34 pm
Rafe, And you believe that, a little self deception, I’d say. Kinda like believing ole Barry, when he said, if you like your plan you can keep it, or when he said, this will lower premiums for everyone.
Single payer.Put everybody on a Medicare type plan, raise the fees for services by the provider and get rid of the robber insurance companies.
We’re already paying for universal health, except it costs about twice as much, because the providers just jack up their bills to cover those non/under paying patients.
Ernest T. Bass
May 2nd, 2012
1:34 pm
If you don’t work, you stand to have less than those who do. Productivity or poverty, you decide
Exactly. Stop blaming the government and Obama for all of your problems.
Its up to you to make a better life for yourself. Not blame Obama or expect the government to take care of you.
Its called personal responsibility.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
1:37 pm
Its up to you to make a better life for yourself with whatever is left of your income after Obozo gets done with you.
——–
Fixed.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
1:38 pm
“the rich are starting to consider New Zealand.”
For their Universal Health Care?
just kidding…….. hahahahaha
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
May 2nd, 2012
1:38 pm
Unemployment Reaches Record High in Euro Zone
Thank you Conservatives and your Austerity idiocy!
Ernest T. Bass
May 2nd, 2012
1:43 pm
Its up to you to make a better life for yourself with whatever is left of your income after Obozo gets done with you.
——–
Fixed.
More just blaming the government for your problems.
Find a mirror and look in it if you wanna know who is responsible for your life,
Hint: It isn’t Obama the President of the United States and Commander in Chief.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
1:43 pm
The rich don’t need universal health care. They pay their own way (and most of yours, likely).
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
1:49 pm
Barry
I own my consulting business that does work in SCM, Logistics and Inventory Management
I have a BBA in Risk Management
APICS Certification
Six Sigma Black Belt
What exactly do you do and what is your education?
You are probably one of the water carriers FOR the and not the high end producers you talk about………….
Just another 60 to 80k or so career administrative or entry level manager crying about others and unable to see that it is your inability to move ahead or strike out on your own and take a risk
If that is not you……… great
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
May 2nd, 2012
1:50 pm
“Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render unto the Cayman Islands what is the Cayman’s.”
~Colbert
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
1:50 pm
Finn McCool: Thank you Conservatives and your Austerity
———-
If government spending was keeping all those folks employed, austerity is not the problem–a sclerotic economy and rabid entitlement mentality (like we’re cultivating here) are.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
1:53 pm
If that is not you……… great
——–
60-80k? Sounds like my tax bill.
Finn McCool (The System isn't Broken; It's Fixed)
May 2nd, 2012
1:53 pm
I see you guys are still confused about what qualifies as “wealthy”.
If you hire a lawn service to cut your lawn you are not wealthy. IF you employ a full-time gardener, you are probably “wealthy.”
If you cook your own meals or eat out every day, you probably aren’t wealthy, IF you employ a full-time chef, you are probably “wealthy.”
If you frequently hire a maid service you are not wealthy. If you employ a full-time “house staff”, you are probably wealthy.
If you drive your kids to sports practices you sure aren’t wealthy, IF you employ a full-time chauffeur, you probably are wealthy.
The delusion of the middle class is that if you work hard and play your cards right, you’ll be able to join this group some day
Mwuahahahahahahahaha
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
1:54 pm
Face it Barry
All you have is this blog and your employer’s computer to gripe on every day
Making yourself feel good by calling other people names…… I hope it is not the case, but maybe your parent’s demeaned you by calling you names so that is what you think is acceptable behavior and it acts as a coping mechanism for you
Get help…….. That company group plan you are under as part of your benefit plan should cover a therapist
Check into it…………
Take care Barry……………
real john
May 2nd, 2012
1:56 pm
saywhat? Blah, blah, blah…some old liberal excuses. The Rich, the rich, all of my problems are their fault…
Ernest T. Bass
May 2nd, 2012
1:56 pm
“An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailments of all republics.”
- Plutarch, Greek historian, c.100 A.D.
“The power of taxing people and their property is essential to the very existence of government.”
- James Madison, “Father of the Constitution,” “Father of the Bill of Rights, ” 4th President
“Why shouldn’t the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them.”
- Edward Filene, founder of Filene’s Department Stores
“Those of us who have the greatest ability to pay are not being asked to. I am not keen on being part of the freeloader class.”
– Bill Collins, former Norwalk CT mayor, earned his wealth in real estate
“I’m not concerned about the very poor.”
Mitt Romney, Millionaire two-time presidential candidate, 2012
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
1:57 pm
Let’s see how many times Progressive Humanist can be wrong in just s single post, shallwe?
“And the funny thing is that the amoral sleazeball hicks like Barry and Tib will vote for Romney, who wrote the blueprint for ObamaCare.”
And yet despite Obama’s dogwashers saying he did, the differences in both plans are numerous, meaning that Romney actually didn’t write the blueprint of Obamacare.
“They want U.S. citizens to die so empty suits can make a profit (pretty patriotic by the way) and they’re going to vote for the empty suit who thought up the “socialist” health care plan to begin with.”
Repeating the same lie twice doesn’t make it any better, Prog. And no, I don’t want citizens to die at all. Just pay your own freight in this world.
“But because of their lack of intellect and education, Barry and Tib will be the ones who will need the social services like government health care, social security, etc. because they’ll never be able to make enough on their own”
Prog, I’m already retired and only 55. I have never taken a dime of money from any government except for that which I earned in salary. Can you say the same?
Illegal Alien
May 2nd, 2012
1:58 pm
The rich don’t need universal health care. They pay their own way (and most of yours, likely).
That’s why I’m an illegal alien, but I appreciate your contribution.
Can you increase your donation a little more?
Hillbilly D
May 2nd, 2012
2:04 pm
This is a surprise? What do they ever do that doesn’t wind up costing more than they claim? That politicians will pee in our ear and tell us it’s raining is as sure as the sun coming up in the East.
Ernest T. Bass
May 2nd, 2012
2:06 pm
Prog, I’m already retired and only 55. I have never taken a dime of money from any government except for that which I earned in salary. Can you say the same?
What do you want a medal ? A cookie perhaps.
The overwhelming majority of people can say the exact same thing.
I can.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
2:07 pm
“Why is it that every other first world country in the world has universal healthcare and they are doing just fine ?”
You do realize, Ernest T, that Europe is, by and large, imploding right now, don’t you?
Don’t you think an inability to continue to afford their social program structure might have a little something to do with it?
Tea Party Meber
May 2nd, 2012
2:09 pm
Im sick n tried of the librals tryin 2 take my money to help the helpless so much so I plan on votin 4 a morman.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
2:11 pm
“The overwhelming majority of people can say the exact same thing.”
Actually, you might have missed two points, Ernest T. (and typical for you btw).
Not many people can afford to be retired at 55, so you’re wrong about that.
And the latest numbers over the past year show that almost half of all Americans are on some type of government assistance, which puts to rest your “overwhelming majority” comment as well.
JohnnyReb
May 2nd, 2012
2:14 pm
Unfortunately, the facts Kyle lays out will fall on deaf ears. Liberals only want to be graded on and talk about their intentions, not the results and/or collateral damage. In this case, it will be how Obamacare gave health care coverage to all those who previously could not afford it. They just know that happened without increasing the deficit because Barry and Nancy said so.
Ernest T. Bass
May 2nd, 2012
2:15 pm
Not many people can afford to be retired at 55, so you’re wrong about that.
Sure they can. Lots of people do. Its really not that big a deal.
And the latest numbers over the past year show that almost half of all Americans are on some type of government assistance, which puts to rest your “overwhelming majority” comment as well.
I sure don’t know them. Nobody I know gets one dime from the government.
Ernest T. Bass
May 2nd, 2012
2:20 pm
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/romneys-gay-spokesman-so-much-for-that/256615/
Mighty big tent you guys have over there.
Shameful.
Ernest T. Bass
May 2nd, 2012
2:23 pm
You do realize, Ernest T, that Europe is, by and large, imploding right now, don’t you?
Don’t you think an inability to continue to afford their social program structure might have a little something to do with it?
Most think its the extreme austerity measures are causing the problems.
But im sure you dont believe that.
http://economywatch.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/02/11503464-grand-plan-to-save-europe-is-unraveling?lite
Shine
May 2nd, 2012
2:24 pm
Lets boot some kooks! Vote democrat!!
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
2:29 pm
Sure they can (retire at 55). Lots of people do. Its really not that big a deal.
The average retirement age in this country is 63.
So for the mathematically challenged, that means for those “lots” of 55 years olds who are retiring there is an equal number of 71 year olds as well.
Which is also apparently not that big a deal.
ragnar danneskjold
May 2nd, 2012
2:31 pm
Republicans have a plan to save social security – the Ryan plan. Democrats have a plan to save social security – “kick it down the road.”
ragnar danneskjold
May 2nd, 2012
2:32 pm
Republicans have a plan to cut spending: “cut spending.”
Democrats have a plan to cut spending: “increase spending and taxes.”
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
2:35 pm
“Most think its the extreme austerity measures are causing the problems.”
Oh, you’ve spoken to “most” people, Ernest T.?
You DO realize your source for that article is the most in-the-tank organization for liberalism in the news media, don’t you?
Grasshopper
May 2nd, 2012
2:37 pm
“Why is it that every other first world country in the world has universal healthcare and they are doing just fine ?”
You mean Greece, Spain, Portugal and the UK are doing just fine?
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
2:38 pm
Republicans have a plan to cut spending: “cut spending.”
What a laugh.
Too bad that based on the last thirty years of the Republican Party exploding the amount of spending, it was only a plan…
Spendaholic neocons – from Reagen through geeDub – talking about cutting spending is like hookers talking about cutting prostitution…
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
2:40 pm
“Why is it that every other first world country in the world has universal healthcare and they are doing just fine ?”
The better question to ask is that out of the 32 industrialized nations in the world, why is the United States the only one without it?
C from Marietta
May 2nd, 2012
2:46 pm
@ Jefferson
I worked three jobs and went to school full time. NO ONE paid for my college but me. I am suppose to share with someone that got drunk and did not get an education? I am not rich, but certainly not jealous of someone that got that way. Don’t give me this mindless 1% stuff. Did you get your job from one of the mindless 99% idiots? Business men make this country. Not some useless leach politician lying to you to get your vote. I bet you love your iPhone and HD TV. Guess what one of those evil 1% business men put up the money to develop them.
real john
May 2nd, 2012
2:46 pm
AmVet:
“The better question to ask is that out of the 32 industrialized nations in the world, why is the United States the only one without it?”
Because most of those nations don’t have 100 million free loaders who suck up large amounts of money. I would love to see how many of those countries would take care of millions of illegal immigrants like the U.S. does.
Its like Mass example. Universal coverage maybe can work on a small scare. Mass is also in the top two or three states in percentage of people in income/wealth which makes it work. However, I had serious doubts how Romneycare would work in a state like Miss or Arkansas for example
getalife
May 2nd, 2012
2:47 pm
One day we will join the rest of the civilized world.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
2:48 pm
“The better question to ask is that out of the 32 industrialized nations in the world, why is the United States the only one without it?”
Because we believe in American exceptionalism, not dragging ourselves down to someone else’s level of mediocrity.
getalife
May 2nd, 2012
2:49 pm
It’s corporate welfare cons.
You are for that welfare.
Georgia, The " New Mississippi "
May 2nd, 2012
2:55 pm
Our nation is destined to become a third world county. People care more about their opinions than they do about factual information when making decisions. Our dysfunctional job for life congressmen have placed our country on a death watch. They worry more about being r-elected and making money than they do about working together to come up with the best solution to solve our countries problems.
“When ignorance gets started it knows no bounds”. Will Rogers
C from Marietta
May 2nd, 2012
2:56 pm
People that excel DESERVE to be rewarded. Get over it. There are winners and losers. BTW… no one goes with medical care or goes hungrey.
C from Marietta
May 2nd, 2012
2:56 pm
without medical i meant
C from Marietta
May 2nd, 2012
2:58 pm
@ Georgia, The ” New Mississippi ”
BINGO. You hit the nail on the head. When achievers are the enemy in a sociality. We are in big trouble.
C from Marietta
May 2nd, 2012
3:00 pm
@ One day we will join the rest of the civilized world.
LOL. Is that why people from different nations flock to this country. OR better yet. Get on a raft and risk death to get here. You have it good. If you can’t see that, your blind.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
3:01 pm
“Spendaholic neocons – from Reagen through geeDub – talking about cutting spending is like hookers talking about cutting prostitution”
Kinda like liberals who can’t get out of a 1980’s mentality and realizing that things actually change.
Unlike liberals who merely devolve.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
3:02 pm
“Our nation is destined to become a third world county.”
See: Any Democrat-controlled big city for proof.
Jefferson
May 2nd, 2012
3:05 pm
Now you c,c.
HDB
May 2nd, 2012
3:20 pm
Rafe Hollister
May 2nd, 2012
1:09 pm
Edward
Nobody gives a rat’s a** if poor kids starve, can’t get an education, or die outside the ER because the doors are closed to them.
Since when has that happened in the USA?”
Quite recently, Rafe……in St. Louis….
Homeless Woman Dies In St. Louis Jail
AP) – Family members have hired an attorney after a homeless woman from St. Louis who died in a jail cell where she was taken after refusing to leave a hospital.
The last hospital she visited in September was St. Mary’s Health Center.
She yelled from a wheelchair at security personnel and police officers that her legs hurt so badly she couldn’t move.
She was arrested for trespassing and died soon afterward
http://www.ktts.com/news/144189045.html
Towncrier
May 2nd, 2012
3:22 pm
“…there’s no way to spin it as fiscally responsible.”
I am sorry, Kyle….what does that phrase “fiscally responsible” mean? I have not heard it before I don’t think – at least in political stories. Does it mean 16 trillion dollars in debt?
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
3:25 pm
real john, I’m not sure your reasons are valid, and you’ve provided nothing to substantiate your “scale” claims but at least it is better than the puerile nonsense: “Because we believe in American exceptionalism.”
That drivel would not pass muster in a ninth grade debate class. Seriously.
By way of offering a specific, verifiable example to countermand your claim, I would proffer the example of the VA as a very large scale American universal health care system that works very, very well.
HDB
May 2nd, 2012
3:27 pm
HDB
May 2nd, 2012
3:20 pm
Rafe Hollister
May 2nd, 2012
1:09 pm
Here’s more about a woman DTYING because the ER was CLOSED to her!! It happens moreso than many think!!
Protestors want answers in woman’s jail cell death in Richmond Heights
ST. LOUIS (KMOV.com) — Demonstrators were calling for justice Friday in the case of a homeless woman who died in a Richmond Heights jail cell after being removed from the hospital.
Protestors who held a march on Friday said they are upset at how St. Louis County authorities have handled the investigation.
The demonstration started in Clayton outside the St. Louis County government building on South Central Avenue and ended at St. Mary’s Health Center.
Anna Brown, 29, died in a jail cell in September from blood clots that formed in her leg and migrated to her lungs, hours after Richmond Heights police arrested her for trespassing at St. Mary’s Health Center.
In the week before Brown’s death, she went to three hospitals complaining of leg pain after spraining her ankle.
Brown, who had lost custody of two children, refused to leave the third hospital, St. Mary’s Health Center. She yelled from a wheelchair at security personnel and Richmond Heights police officers that her legs hurt so badly she couldn’t stand. She was arrested for trespassing and wheeled out in handcuffs after a doctor said she was healthy enough to be locked up.
She told officers she couldn’t get out of the police car, so they dragged her by her arms into the station. They left her lying on the concrete floor of a jail cell. Just 15 minutes later, a jail worker found her cold to the touch.
Although officers suspected Brown was using drugs, autopsy results showed she had no drugs in her system.
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Homeless-womans-jail-cell-death-protested-146430635.html
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
3:28 pm
“By way of offering a specific, verifiable example to countermand your claim, I would proffer the example of the VA as a very large scale American universal health care system that works very, very well.”
Or rather, works well enough for you. And it’s not nearly as large as anything contemplated by universal health care for an entire nation.
getalife
May 2nd, 2012
3:31 pm
The newt is out.
Nice pick kyle.
independent thinker
May 2nd, 2012
3:36 pm
Kyle: Where are these alleged Medicare savings that are being double counted? Are there any that have been created by Obamacare/ How much? How many billions?? And while your looking that important piece of reporting up, also tell us how much was spent by your mentor, George W. on Medicare drugs with no funding source and how much drug companies profited from that government give away. I assume that political ploy to get George W. reelected in 2004 did not effect the deficit in any way but any savings by Obama surely does. My head is hurting from this twisted logic. I guess George W. was better at math than Obama and a deficit under him is a plus not a minus.
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
3:38 pm
Another example of a very large scale and very successful universal health care system. This one a mere 51 years in existence.
Since 1961 Japan has provided universal health coverage, which allows virtually all access to preventive, curative and rehabilitative services at an affordable cost.
All residents of Japan are required by the law to have health insurance coverage. People without insurance through employers can participate in a national health insurance program administered by local governments. Patients are free to select physicians or facilities of their choice and cannot be denied coverage. Hospitals, by law, must be run as non-profit and be managed by physicians. For-profit corporations are not allowed to own or operate hospitals. Clinics must be owned and operated by physicians.
Medical fees are strictly regulated by the government to keep them affordable. Depending on the family income and the age of insured patients, they are responsible for paying 10%, 20% or 30% of the medical fees, and the government pays the remaining fee.
In 2008, Japan spent about 8.5% of the nation’s GDP (US$2,873 per capita) on health, which ranked 20th among Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries. It was less than an average of 9.6% across OECD countries in 2009, and about half as much as that in the US.
But we can’t afford it, right?
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
3:42 pm
The ER was closed to her, HDB? Really?
From your own link: “They found that when Brown arrived at St. Mary’s around 11:45 a.m. on Sept. 20, her left ankle was swollen. She was there for about seven hours, during which ultrasounds on both of her legs were negative for blood clots.” And: “Inspectors said she returned eight hours later and was discharged at 7 a.m.”
Some times people die, HDB. They can’t all be saved. When you have ultrasounds on both your legs and they come up negative, there just might be something else wrong with you.
But you’d rather make this about someone who got medical care while claiming they did not.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
3:44 pm
independent thinker: tell us how much was spent by your mentor, George W. on Medicare drugs
——–
And while Kyle is doing your research for you why don’t you tell us how much Obozo has reduced spending on Medicare Part D, since it’s such a problem in your mind.
carlosgvv
May 2nd, 2012
3:44 pm
Tiberius – 12:35
So, since this was done in 2010, even though it will cost double what Obama said, Romney and the Republicans won’t bother to bring it up in the all out campaign that is about to start?
And you call me dumb?????
carlosgvv
May 2nd, 2012
3:49 pm
HDB – 3:27
Tiberius and Rafe have already solved this problem to their satisfaction. Their solution is;
Every man for himself and let them eat cake!!!!
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
3:52 pm
“But we can’t afford it, right?”
No, we can’t.
What part of $16+ trillion debts and half our annual budget being deficit spending do you NOT understand?
Misty Fyed
May 2nd, 2012
3:54 pm
The question we need to ask is in the event of a defense emergency, are those other countries AmVet seems so proud of capable of protecting themselves or do they rely on US Military Strength as part of their plan.
It’s not so hard to provide Universal Healthcare when you rely on someone else to bail you out of a jam. Would those same countries be able to afford it otherwise?
Don't Tread
May 2nd, 2012
3:57 pm
“when Obama and Congress pass a law to take in $1, count that $1 twice…”
And if you did that as a private enterprise, they’d throw you in jail. But it’s ok when Democrats do it. Their supporters don’t grasp and/or don’t care about economic concepts (or basic math for that matter). They just want something for nothing, and that’s all that matters to them. If they have to destroy freedom to do it, so be it.
Rafe Hollister
May 2nd, 2012
3:59 pm
HDB
Seven hours in the hospital. She was not refused medical attention, they just could not determine what ailed her. Sad story, but you can’t say that people are dying outside hospitals, when she was treated but obviously misdiagnosed. The same thing could have happened to you or I. How many people have you known that came home after going to the ER, being assured they were fine, and then died shortly thereafter. I joke with my brother a hypochondriac when he feels great after a positive physical. I say people with positive physical exams usually are dead within a few hours.
Anyway, you were the one telling me there was no voter fraud, because you could only find 200 instances of it ever being proved. Well you have a long way to go to find 200 instances of people dying outside hospital ER doors. And this one doesn’t count as she was treated as best they knew how.
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
4:01 pm
Misty, you foot in mouth specialist, I’ve said for thirty years to pull US troops out of those industrialized countries, and let them defend themselves.
Yes, including Israel.
But your chickenhawk party (primarily) has fought it tooth and nail.
They gotta keep their union buddies at Boeing, Lockheed, Northrup Grumman, Raytheon, General Dynamics, KBR, et al, ad nauseum in the easy money…
Rafe Hollister
May 2nd, 2012
4:04 pm
Every man for himself and let them eat cake!!!!
Carlos
Make mine devils food cake, reminds me of Barry Oblamer or Henry V, as Chris Matthews called him.
independent thinker
May 2nd, 2012
4:05 pm
Little Barry know nothing:
“”"As comptroller general of the Government Accountability Office for most of the past decade, Walker used his position to call attention to the nation’s long-term budget problems at a time when the debt wasn’t front-page news. He now leads the Comeback America Initiative, a nonpartisan group promoting fiscal responsibility. There was no attempt to offset the cost of the Medicare prescription bill, Walker said. “It’s fair to say that at least there was an attempt to pay” for the health law through a mix of spending cuts and tax increases. How big is the hole left by the prescription program? Over the next 75 years, its $7.5 trillion “unfunded obligation” exceeds the $6.7 trillion gap attributable to Social Security. “”"”
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/18/gop-2012-candidates-opposed-to-repealing-unfunded-medicare-drug-benefit/#ixzz1tkEiGM7K
I assume that you would consider Fox news and the Comptoller General reliable sources of information if made a minimal effort to respond with some showing of intelligence.
Misty Fyed
May 2nd, 2012
4:10 pm
AmVet….You speak without knowledge. Their are few things we agree on but minimizing our foot print globally is something we do. You can blame the republicans but I haven’t seen any effort by your party under Obama or Clinton to do this. Oh they have the campaign rhetoric but it is nothing more than that.
Until we do minimize that footprint, it is naive to compare the U.S. model to “other industrialized nations”. You aren’t nearly as smart as you think you are but I know you’re smarter than that.
md
May 2nd, 2012
4:10 pm
“Most think its the extreme austerity measures are causing the problems.”
Another that must believe they saved their way into trouble……..
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
4:14 pm
…by your party under Obama or Clinton to do this.
How is it that you can open your mouth so wide that you can get both of your feet in there?
I voted against both of them.
Try again, Einsteen…
md
May 2nd, 2012
4:18 pm
“The better question to ask is that out of the 32 industrialized nations in the world, why is the United States the only one without it?”
Because 31 of them piggy back off the US Military and many of them are socialist countries with high income taxes of which EVERYBODY pays??
independent thinker
May 2nd, 2012
4:22 pm
”
“”"The report, The Origins of the Doughnut Hole: Excess Profits on Prescription Drugs, by economist Dean Baker, calculated the difference between the average cost of 20 common drugs used by seniors and the cost when obtained through the Veterans Administration. It found excess profits totaling more than $7 billion in the first year of the program. The study also calculated prices for prescription drugs such as Actonel, Aricept, Celebrex, Fosamax, Nexium, Norvasc, Plavix, Prevacid, Toprol XL, and Xalatan. Thousands of drugs cost more than necessary under the Medicare drug plan because Congress prohibited Medicare from negotiating drug prices directly with the pharmaceutical industry, as is done by the Veterans Administration. In the case of many drugs, the prices paid by insurers participating in the plan are more than twice as high as the prices paid by the Veterans Administration. ”
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/drug-companies-making-billions-in-excess-profits-under-medicare-plan/
OF COURSE WE SHOULD BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT OBOZO’S PROGRAM LEADING TO ANY SAVINGS- RIGHT??? Good Job – Georgie boy.
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
4:35 pm
Kyle’s article today and much of what can only euphemistically be called “discussion” on the blog are examples of the usual game politicians and people like Kyle like to play, blaming “the other side” for legislation gimmicks, pretending that predictions are facts, arguing for political reasons. The one thing that remains on the sidelines is the fundamental issues.
The fundamental facts are that each year a certain number of people in the country are sick, get sick, or injured. Those people should get health care. That costs money. Because nobody knows when and how he/she will get sick or injured, the only sensible way of guaranteeing the health care all people should receive is some form of universal insurance.
The access to health care is a fundamental human right.
It is a government’s duty to guarantee it.
It is not true that the country cannot afford the cost. We are a rich country. Of course we can. It is obvious, however, that every effort should be made to lower the cost. The two fundamental ways are also obvious; To make sickness and injury less likely, and to lower the cost of the necessary care. The former involves such things as encouraging healthier lifestyle, finding more medical weapons against illnesses, making conditions safer. There have been many suggestions from the professionals how to lower the cost.
The system we had before ObamaCare was failing both in providing health care for all and in keeping costs low. ObamaCare is an effort to improve both aspects. As a very complex task it certainly is not perfect and the effort should be to improve it, not to get back to the failed system that preceded it.
md
May 2nd, 2012
4:36 pm
All those on the left that are calling for universal hc, do you not find it strange that even though the numbers indicate that 46% of our society pays no income tax, the talking heads only go after a small percentage too small to make a difference??
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/28/46-percent-of-americans-e_n_886293.html
How do you folks ever expect “social” programs to work when half of “society” has no skin in the game??
md
May 2nd, 2012
4:40 pm
“The system we had before ObamaCare was failing both in providing health care for all and in keeping costs low. ObamaCare is an effort to improve both aspects. As a very complex task it certainly is not perfect and the effort should be to improve it, not to get back to the failed system that preceded it.”
Any system based on a third party payer will lead to higher costs…..that includes what we had AND Obamacare. The only way to reduce costs is to find a solution to remove the middle man, thus paying wholesale vs retail for care.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 2nd, 2012
4:41 pm
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
3:38 pm
Another example of a very large scale and very successful universal health care system. This one a mere 51 years in existence.
Since 1961 Japan has provided universal health coverage, which allows virtually all access to preventive, curative and rehabilitative services at an affordable cost.
Also Japan relies on nuclear power prominently, and place a higher value on education, real education like math and science rather than what the teacher’s unions in this country teach.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 2nd, 2012
4:44 pm
Any system based on a third party payer will lead to higher costs…..that includes what we had AND Obamacare. The only way to reduce costs is to find a solution to remove the middle man, thus paying wholesale vs retail for care.
The best way to reduce healthcare costs is to get lawyers out and malpractice insurance reduced. If you have a life threatening condition and a doctor tries to help, he/she shouldn’t get financially punished if he/she makes a mistake. Doctors are human too.
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
4:46 pm
The Republcian desperation level to keep the failed and deadly status quo is getting palpable.
First the argument is made that UHC cannot work on a large scale. I’ve given two examples that disprove that. There are many more including Israel’s and Switzerland’s.
Then the reason shifts to military expenditures as the reason that we can’t afford what everyone can.
To which I’ve said, great – drastically cut the Pentagon’s insanely bloated, corrupt, wasteful, abusive and fraudulent budget. Along with the mega-welfare given away to the DoD contractors.
But you national security rubes along with the new Chickenhawk in Chief want no part of that.
So the next canard is how can we afford it when the pitifully poor don’t pay any federal income tax?
Next.
independent thinker
May 2nd, 2012
4:46 pm
How come Kyle forgot to inform his readers that this entire post is based on the partisan opinions of one Blahouse – the Republican appointee to sit as trustee of Medicare and is totally repudiated by other trustees of Medicare? One would think that is an important fact in considering thhe source.
And remember the World Health Organization found the US to be no. 35 of Western countries in proving health care due to inefficiency of our health care system. Maybe taking profits out of health care would make it more efficient? Ya think?
And you expect Romney to do that?
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
4:51 pm
OH, I see we now have nuclear power and education as the reason we can’t afford UHC.
Speaking of which, do the Japanese public school teachers instruct their students in global cooling and Intelligent Design like you Rick Perry Republicans would just love to have here?
No, they do not.
And once again, you neocons stand completely alone again the rest of the educated world on these matters.
Nobody else agrees with you.
Nobody.
Own it, Because it is the reality
Yet, you’ve figure it all out.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 2nd, 2012
4:52 pm
The access to health care is a fundamental human right.
It is a government’s duty to guarantee it.
MarkV,
Kinda funny, most peoples lives end at around 80 years old. The previous generations paid their doctors out of pocket and accepted death as an inevitable consequence of life. Somehow our society has morphed into a bunch of pu$$ies that go to the doctor at the drop of a hat, many felching on the bill. What Obamacare provides is a way for the responsible to help pay for the irresponsible society members, the people who ride motorcycles with no helmet, adrenilene junkies, smokers, drugs by needles, people who surf on top of cars. It’s ridiculous.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
4:53 pm
“I voted against both of them.
Try again, Einsteen…”
Too many sheeple who blindly follow either the Republican or Democrat Party, can’t fathom that people actually vote for candidates that are neither one………
As soon as you say something about one or the other, they attack with well you voted for this D or this R….. blah, blah, blah
Mindless rot for those not wishing to think very hard or think at all for that matter
Jefferson
May 2nd, 2012
4:54 pm
Those that work to improve the law will be rewarded, those that don’t will be punished. Why not make it better, its going to be around for the next 2000 years.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 2nd, 2012
4:57 pm
Speaking of which, do the Japanese public school teachers instruct their students in global cooling and Intelligent Design like you Rick Perry Republicans would just love to have here?
A completely speculative subject that you flaming libdouches claim as fact.
And once again, you neocons stand completely alone again the rest of the educated world on these matters.
And you just conceded that the rest of the world is educated, not what your average liberal arts major, er educator, can wrap their minds around and disseminate to our young pupils whom they are paid to enlighten.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 2nd, 2012
5:00 pm
But you national security rubes along with the new Chickenhawk in Chief want no part of that.
I’ll take a chicken hawk over a pit bull eater any day of the week.
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
5:03 pm
I advocate the dismantling of both major political parties.
They are a dual dictatorship that allow NO other voices to be heard.
Seven out of ten Americans think that they have failed them. I am shocked that three out of ten don’t.
We are a very competitive people, yet we are not allowed by the Tweedledee and Tweedledum Parties to have a competitive democracy.
They have perverted this greatest of all nations into the Hatfields and McCoys, who each religiously repeat the following mantra:
Party First. Party Last. Party Always.
And the kicker is that there are much better candidates out there without an R or D after their names.
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
5:05 pm
Prtince, that you kiss BHO’s habeus corpus hostage taking ass is interesting but not useful.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 2nd, 2012
5:05 pm
DamVet, I thought you were a lib…
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
5:05 pm
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers @ 4:52 pm
Funny, yes- what you have written. But no substance.
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
5:09 pm
Prince, I thought you were educated. (grin)
You seem to be having enormous difficulties comprehending standard written English.
Obama is a train wreck. Obamacare is proof. I have given him a grade of C- and that is probably being a tad lenient. I will vote against him again this November.
But the real tragedy in this country?
This hijacked, fake conservative GOP is magnitudes of degree worse.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
5:11 pm
“DamVet, I thought you were a lib…”
As soon as you say something about one or the other, they attack with well you voted for this D or this R….. blah, blah, blah
case in point……… never takes too long
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 2nd, 2012
5:13 pm
AmVet, I check in infrequently and you are usually bashing neo-cons.
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 2nd, 2012
5:15 pm
This country will implode unless lobbyist access gets removed and term limits are imposed. Neither will happen with these self serving d-bags on both sides suckling up to the highest bidder. It’s so far gone, the only thing that will stop it is fear for their actions.
gm
May 2nd, 2012
5:25 pm
People like Kyle and others should have no insurance for 1 day and walk around with pre conditions, and experience the hell people go thru who have lost their jobs and homes and have to get help.
These are the same people after 911 who claim they were Americans, and voted to send billions to Iraq, but dont want other Americans to get help, makes you think, are our inside terrorist worst then the outside who tried to destroy Americans?
Fair and Balanced
May 2nd, 2012
5:25 pm
See the following cite:
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/04/bogus-obamacare-deficit-study.html
Mr. Blahous is just a partisan hack with some weird theories .
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
5:30 pm
Prince, I am more conservative than most of the so-called conservatives who post here and at Bookman’s.
I am pro nuclear power.
I am pro second Amendment.
I am much more tough on crime than they are. Because I advocate for severe punishment for both street AND th ven more insidious and destructive white collar crime. They turn a blind eye to the latter and in some cases actually seem to idolize it. Inexplicably to their own family’s and community’s suffering.
I own my own business and am a big time capitalist. But not in the throw away definition that these guys use. Not one of them can even tell you the Three laws of Capitalism.
They have no earthly concept of what socialism and Marxism are, yet they trot those words out constantly. And when pressed to explain their bizarre accusations that this or that or the other person is a Communist, they cannot make any kind of intelligent, convincing response. But then neither can the disgraced, run out of the Army, Allan West.
And across the board, on a wide variety of topics, it is almost impossible to find someone that can intelligently describe in detail with specific examples what conservatism even is.
Seriously.
Sure, they can cough up all of the slogans and sound bites. And after years of observation, it appears to me that the ultimate definition of a conservative – according to them – is to hate liberals.
That is it.
But beyond that?
There ain’t much…
The Fresh Prince of Bill Ayers
May 2nd, 2012
5:35 pm
Time for a tangible 3rd party, but since Perot i think these d-bags got scared and figured out how to protect themselves. Politicians are like weathermen, they blow the forecast yet we check in the next morning to see what’s next….major change and accountability has to come soon or we’re screwed.
@@
May 2nd, 2012
5:40 pm
Since 1961 Japan has provided universal health coverage, which allows virtually all access to preventive, curative and rehabilitative services at an affordable cost.
Health care in Japan
Not all smiles
Japan’s health-care system is the envy of the world. It is also in crisis
“The system’s inefficiencies could be tolerated in a period of high growth, but not in today’s climate of economic stagnation.”
You’re welcome, AmVet.
@@
May 2nd, 2012
5:44 pm
AmVet’s a Nader Wader.
schnirt
Kyle - flip flopper like Mitt
May 2nd, 2012
5:44 pm
Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
12:20 pm
Anything more and you’re just the typical libtard hypocrite.
Kyle – Good to see you are keeping your word on monitoring the comments. Unless of course you think libtard, tard, or retard is OK.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
5:45 pm
independent thinker
4:05 pm
————————
Did I claim that Medicare D was an affordable, paid-for program? I did not. In fact, I opposed it at the time it was passed.
What I asked, and you so far as I have seen have avoided this question, is…since it was such a horrible, expensive program, what has your Failed Messiah done to reduce its costs?
Obozo has surely complained about it.
And of course he has blamed Bush for it.
He just hasn’t done anything about it.
Obozo: A Failed Messiah.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
5:49 pm
gm: People like Kyle and others should have no insurance for 1 day
——————-
Why? That wouldn’t be very responsible.
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
5:49 pm
@@’s a leghumper. (And a banned one at that.)
Schnort
Tealiban Party
May 2nd, 2012
5:49 pm
Still waiting for Kyle to cover this story:
Plaintiff challenging healthcare law went bankrupt – with unpaid medical bills
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/08/nation/la-na-healthcare-plaintiff-20120309
Lead plaintiff in the healthcare lawsuit doesn’t think she needs healthcare insurance, but wants the public to pay for her unpaid healthcare bills due to bankruptcy. Is this the Republican idea of responsibility?
@@
May 2nd, 2012
5:51 pm
Kyle Flop:
I was in a hurry but I’m fairly certain AmVet called me stupid this morning.
Don’t see me whining, do ‘ya?
@@
May 2nd, 2012
5:53 pm
AmVet/Gimp:
@@’s a leghumper.
And about the article at “The Economist”….did you bother to read it?
Obviously not.
I’ll pull up some excerpts for ‘ya. Gimme a minute.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
5:54 pm
Plaintiff challenging healthcare law went bankrupt – with unpaid medical bills
Obama administration lawyers say her case is an example of why an insurance mandate is needed to prevent ‘uncompensated care that will ultimately be paid by others.’
————————
And how are bankrupt people supposed to purchase health insurance as required by Obozocare?
Oh, right, by getting taxpayers to cover the cost for them.
Ain’t no free lunch, libtards.
@@
May 2nd, 2012
5:55 pm
1st installment:
By 2035 health care’s share of GDP will roughly double, according to McKinsey, a consultancy. The burden falls on the state, which foots two-thirds of the bills. Politicians are unwilling to raise taxes, so they squeeze suppliers instead: more than three-quarters of public hospitals operate at a loss.
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
5:55 pm
You’re whining now.
You always start the crap slinging and then act like you’re pure as the driven snow.
@@
May 2nd, 2012
6:52 am
OH GAWD!!!!
AmVet:
Please go to the nearest powder room and freshen up.
schnirt
Grow up.
Or don’t…
@@
May 2nd, 2012
5:56 pm
2nd installment:
Like other service industries in Japan, there are cumbersome rules, too many small players and few incentives to improve. Doctors are too few—one-third less than the rich-world average, relative to the population—because of state quotas. Shortages of doctors are severe in rural areas and in certain specialities, such as surgery, paediatrics and obstetrics. The latter two shortages are blamed on the country’s low birth rate, but practitioners say that they really arise because income is partly determined by numbers of tests and drugs prescribed, and there are fewer of these for children and pregnant women. Doctors are worked to the bone for relatively low pay (around $125,000 a year at mid-career). One doctor in his 30s says he works more than 100 hours a week. “How can I find time to do research? Write an article? Check back on patients?” he asks.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
5:56 pm
“what has your Failed Messiah done to reduce its costs?”
Thinker’s God is in the business of reducing costs?
Wow……. what church and ideology does he follow?
Oh shucks more name calling and coping mechanisms from childhood
But I get your point about reducing costs. Republicans didn’t want competition when that bill came out and Obama has done nothing either
Barry: “if you don’t get help at Charter, please get help”
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
5:58 pm
Don’t waste electrons or what grey matter you have left.
I said Japan’s system was successful, not perfect.
Next.
@@
May 2nd, 2012
5:58 pm
3rd installment:
On the positive side, patients can nearly always see a doctor within a day. But they must often wait hours for a three-minute consultation. Complicated cases get too little attention. The Japanese are only a quarter as likely as the Americans or French to suffer a heart attack, but twice as likely to die if they do.
Some doctors see as many as 100 patients a day. Because their salaries are low, they tend to overprescribe tests and drugs. (Clinics often own their own pharmacies.) They also earn money, hotel-like, by keeping patients in bed. Simple surgery that in the West would involve no overnight stay, such as a hernia operation, entails a five-day hospital stay in Japan.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
May 2nd, 2012
5:58 pm
OBAMA ADMITS FABRICATING GIRLFRIEND IN MEMOIR…
And then he told her about his fake economic experience.
And together they all said eewwww, aren’t you the greatest?
To which obozo said why, yes, I am.
And they all lived happily ever after.
@@
May 2nd, 2012
6:00 pm
4th installment:
Emergency care is often poor. In lesser cities it is not uncommon for ambulances to cruise the streets calling a succession of emergency rooms to find one that can cram in a patient. In a few cases people have died because of this. One reason for a shortage of emergency care is an abundance of small clinics instead of big hospitals. Doctors prefer them because they can work less and earn more.
But I love spending time on you, AmVet.
schnirt
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
6:00 pm
You forgot the part where Barry gets himself a Kleenex and cleans himself up.
Tealiban Party
May 2nd, 2012
6:02 pm
Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
5:54 pm
Ain’t no free lunch, libtards.
Woooooooooooosh. That was the sound of the point of the article quickly passing you by. I guess I would expect no less from someone more interested in childish name calling than intelligent discussion.
@@
May 2nd, 2012
6:03 pm
5th installment:
The system is slow to adopt cutting-edge (and therefore costly) treatments. New drugs are approved faster in Indonesia or Turkey, according to the OECD. Few data are collected on how patients respond to treatments. As the Lancet says, prices are heavily regulated but quality is not. This will make it hard for Japan to make medical tourism a pillar of future economic growth, as the government plans.
I’m done.
You may go now, AmVet.
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
6:06 pm
Nah, I’ll just stay here, enjoy me popcorn and watch you do your patented meltdown…
@@
May 2nd, 2012
6:06 pm
AmVet:
You said VERY successful.
Another example of a very large scale and very successful universal health care system. This one a mere 51 years in existence.
Don’t let the dementia get you down.
schnirt
md
May 2nd, 2012
6:09 pm
“So the next canard is how can we afford it when the pitifully poor don’t pay any federal income tax?”
Please Am……don’t insult us with the pitifully poor card…..you really want to play that card?
You want everyone to believe that 46% of the population is “pitifully poor”?
Really?
Ronnie Raygun
May 2nd, 2012
6:11 pm
What about the “failure” that the ACA was modeled on: Romneycare? Insurance costs must be skyrocketing in Massachusetts.
What?!?!? Insurance prices DROPPED 5% this year? The second year in a row insurance prices have dropped in Massachusetts while they’ve gone up by nearly double digits everywhere else? How can this happen when it’s suppose to bankrupt the country.
The facts must be giving the Conned migraines.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
6:12 pm
I’m going to go way out on a limb here and predict that Obozocare’s unpaid-for costs are going to far outstrip Medicare Part D’s unpaid-for costs.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
6:16 pm
That’s right, Ronnie, and Massachusetts has now lost its distinction as the state with the HIGHEST health insurance premiums!
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
6:17 pm
“I’m going to go way out on a limb here and predict that Obozocare’s unpaid-for costs are going to far outstrip Medicare Part D’s unpaid-for costs.”
And that justifies what and how?
unpaid is unpaid
More money we will be borrowing from China
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
6:17 pm
Very successful and 51 years on.
Get a grip, woman.
Here’s your next assignment.
Seventy-one percent of the Earth’s surface is covered by water.
Now scurry off to wiki and find all of the holes in that statement…
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
6:21 pm
Question:
What is the doctor situation in terms of “per capita” in Mass since Romneycare was implemented?
Some have asserted that Obamacare will drive many doctors to leave their practice………. I have no idea.
Is that going on in Mass, whether it is leaving the practice totally or just leaving to practice in another state?
md
May 2nd, 2012
6:21 pm
Funny how an avowed “capitalist” can’t figure out that wages are flat because we’ve contributed to our own demise while the commie-capitalists have kicked our butt’s in production and labor costs.
Me thinks his complicity is too hard to swallow…….50B every single month shipped out of this country, yet we are to believe it has no bearing.
As for wages…..it’s called a market correction…..the global market dictates everybody’s wages. As they are willing to work for fractions (big raises to them), we will continue to stagnate as long as the consumers flock to lower priced goods of which we can not compete…….I think that is called “capitalism”.
Still driving a foreign car and complaining about jobs going overseas??
Uh—huh.
md
May 2nd, 2012
6:28 pm
“The facts must be giving the Conned migraines.”
Facts?
http://www.boston.com/Boston/whitecoatnotes/2011/06/mass-health-care-costs-outpace-nation/DFCgMwvVZtunS7TIAn44BN/index.html
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
6:32 pm
md,
Fifty percent of the people in this country earn $32,396 or less per year. Many of them have families.
That represents 13% of all the income made in this country and they pay 2% of the taxes.
And yet you 1% asskisssers obsess about them.
But the sickest part of you Republicans is how you NEVER, and I do mean NEVER, speak up about this travesty:
Five million households in this country make somewhere between $50,000 and more than $1 million and pay NOTHING in federal income taxes in any given year.
The vast majority of that group — 4.3 million — make between $50,000 and $100,000 and pay NOTHING in federal income taxes in any given year.
Another 485,000 make between $100,000 and $500,000 and pay NOTHING in federal income taxes in any given year.
And the remaining 18,000 make $500,000 or more and pay NOTHING in federal income taxes in any given year.
Focus on the real injustice and quit promoting the idea that it is a crime to be poor in this country…
AmVet
May 2nd, 2012
6:39 pm
Funny how an avowed “capitalist” can’t figure out that wages are flat because we’ve contributed to our own demise while the commie-capitalists have kicked our butt’s in production and labor costs.
Simplistic tripe.
The reasons are many and lots of them deal with subjects you want to remain ignorant about. Just as you demonstrated a few minutes earlier.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
6:42 pm
“The access to health care is a fundamental human right.”
To that, I say “Bulls#it!”
A fundamental human right is something you can do or practice without the willing or unwilling help of others. You may not claim a right when it requires someone else to participate in it.
“It is a government’s duty to guarantee it.”
And again I say, “Bulls#it!”.
What you are describing is government protected SLAVERY.
td
May 2nd, 2012
6:42 pm
The whole question about debating the hidden cost in Obamacare is purely academic at this point since the SCOTUS is going to rule the entire bill unconstitutional next month.
Obama is suppose to be a constitutional lawyer and he signed this unconstitutional peice of legislation. I guess we all know why he will not release his transcripts now.
md
May 2nd, 2012
6:45 pm
“That represents 13% of all the income made in this country and they pay 2% of the taxes.”
46-13 = 33
Even giving you the 13% Am leaves another 33% with no skin in the game. And there are a good number within the 13% that choose to be there.
As for the other group that does not contribute……you must have missed those days…..this (I) has acknowledged many times that the problem is not restricted to any end of the spectrum.
And that is where you and those like you that only spout off about the “rich” are missing the big picture. Social programs require that everybody pull their weight…bottom, middle and top.
That is why some of those European countries are not in as much red tape as others, there is no “poor pitiful poor” card to play……they all are required to pay.
md
May 2nd, 2012
6:47 pm
“Simplistic tripe.
The reasons are many and lots of them deal with subjects you want to remain ignorant about. Just as you demonstrated a few minutes earlier.”
Evidently not simple enough for you Am…….
Consumers dictate wages………end of story. It is really quite simple…..not too sure why you want to make it more difficult.
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
6:48 pm
@6:42 pm
Bulls#it
md
May 2nd, 2012
6:50 pm
“Focus on the real injustice and quit promoting the idea that it is a crime to be poor in this country…”
Merely pointing out the facts dear fellow……nobody here said anyting about it being a crime to be poor….I believe that is your drama card.
Facts are, many do choose to be poor……no if’s and’s or but’s……and no, I give them no pass as I give no pass to those on the other end of the spectrum that are equally “selfish”.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
7:00 pm
Then man up and actually define what a “right” is, MarkV.
Tell us how something can be a fundamental right, when it requires the participation of someone else.
Fair and Balanced
May 2nd, 2012
7:03 pm
I have yet to hear how Mr. Blahous is a reliable source for any valid information about Obamacare. Typical for the “fair and balanced ” crowd. Some people here actually believed he was something more than a partisan hack because he was quoted in one of Rupert’s rag sheets.
and the” former federal budget official one Mr. Capretta that ” Kyle quotes??
His bio:
James C. Capretta, a Fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center (EPPC), was an Associate Director at the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB) from 2001 to 2004, where he was the top budget official for health care, Social Security, education, and welfare programs.”
Sure didn’t speak out much about Medicare deficits when Bush was helping Big Pharma and bankrupting Medicare with free drugs for recipents to buy votes. Another partisan hack.
md
May 2nd, 2012
7:05 pm
MarkV…….are you putting your name in the pot for those that the gov’t can order to become a nurse in order to give others what they are rightfully entitled to??
If not, is defense a right as well? Are you in favor of the draft??
Just curious…….
Bullet County
May 2nd, 2012
7:18 pm
Kyle, Let’s call Newton Leroy, he can fix this the same way he’ll fix his debt-ridden campaign.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
May 2nd, 2012
7:23 pm
obozo and Genevieve, sittin in a tree
e-a-t-i-n-g-a-p-u-p-p-i-e
first came love, then came admiration
then came his ego pushing a diva carriage
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
7:30 pm
Fair and Balanced: I have yet to hear how Mr. Blahous is a reliable source for any valid information about Obamacare. Typical for the “fair and balanced ” crowd.
———————
Feel free to point out his factual shortcomings, etc.
Didn’t think so.
You’ve got nothing.
JKL2
May 2nd, 2012
7:31 pm
-there’s no way to spin it as fiscally responsible.
The man who blew $5T in three years claiming fiscal responsibility? Bwahahahahahahahahaha
Romneycare costs 4 times as much as predicted. I’m sure obamacare will save us $trillions because obama is just that much smarter. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
7:31 pm
md @7:05 pm: “MarkV…….are you putting your name in the pot for those that the gov’t can order to become a nurse in order to give others what they are rightfully entitled to??”
md,
Why don’t you present a contra- argument, instead of this rubbish?
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
7:36 pm
“Why don’t you present a contra- argument, instead of this rubbish?”
Pot calling kettle !
td
May 2nd, 2012
7:42 pm
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
7:31 pm
Answer the questions posed Mark: What are our fundamental rights, where are they contrived from and are they societal or individual rights?
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
7:42 pm
Tiberius – Banned from Bookman’s and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
2:07 pm
————————
The homosexual bigot in me makes me really LIKE Romney….but the religious bigot in me makes me DESPISE him…….
Hmmmm….do I want to go to Hell for supporting homosexuality….or for supporting polygamists……
The 2012 election comes down to “how do you want to burn in Hell”……
but, of course, Mormons don’t believe in Hell…..and yet homosexuals do…..
md
May 2nd, 2012
7:42 pm
“md,
Why don’t you present a contra- argument, instead of this rubbish?”
Not rubbish if your answer is no………then it becomes a conundrum. How would you provide for this healthcare “right” if there was a shortage of personnel??
You plan to implement a healthcare draft??
It is a very valid question if one believes it to be a right.
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
7:45 pm
A fundamental human right is something you can do or practice without the willing or unwilling help of others. You may not claim a right when it requires someone else to participate in it.
—————————-
What about the right to form a militia…or a union….!?!?!?
@@
May 2nd, 2012
7:46 pm
AmVet:
Get a grip, woman.
You’ve got nuthin’ to grip, eunuch.
Now scurry off to wiki and find all of the holes in that statement…
Just because you get your info from Wiki doesn’t mean everyone is so dependent.
I can’t recall the last time I went to Wiki for info. They’re about as unreliable a source as you.
redneckbluedog
May 2nd, 2012
7:47 pm
Joe ALWAYS comes up with the cleverest posts….:-)….
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
7:47 pm
md and td,
Take up your objections with Mr. Jefferson and the other signatories of the Declaration of Independence: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”
I have not written anything about “unwilling help.” But unless it is about Tiberius’ playing with himself, most people find that pursuit of happiness requires participation of others.
If life and pursuit of happiness are among the fundamental human rights, then so is access to health care. How do you maintain life without health care, if an illness or injury threatens it? What happiness do you pursue when you are gravely ill?
MarkV: “It is a government’s duty to guarantee it.”
Check again the words of the Declaration of Independence: “That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”
Case closed
@@
May 2nd, 2012
7:47 pm
ew
Too much blue.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
7:51 pm
“What about the right to form a militia…or a union”
Joe, you can certainly engage in a militia of one if you so choose.
Your union question is why I do not consider the right to assemble as one that protects the creation of unions, and where I disagree with the liberal Supreme Court that upheld it.
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
7:54 pm
md @7:42 pm
Access to health care is a right, just like pursuit of happiness. Do you want to argue that pursuit of happiness is NOT a right, because someone might want to make this pursuit in a way that cannot be achieved? Just like for pursuit of happiness the government’ role is to secure conditions that make it possible, so it is with access to health care.
td
May 2nd, 2012
7:56 pm
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
7:47 pm
If your arguments are correct then man can not survive without food or shelter so are these also fundamental rights? I for one am not happy unless I am able to surf the web and post on these blogs, so does that mean the government should ensure that I have access to the web?
Martin Williams
May 2nd, 2012
7:58 pm
What does the GOP and the Tea Party people have on the table in terms of health care Kyle? The GOP have never seriously talked about health care at anytime and you know that. Next time Kyle call it the real name and not Obamacare as you all continue to label it. It is not by any means a perfect system but it can polished/or improved standard as we go. The Swedish government have used it for almost 20 years and they work on improvement even though some idiots call it socialism. Tell me Kyle if medicare/or medicaid is not a socialized system/or yet social security/or yet the biggest and most expensive military in the world. All these stuff is big time socialism per defination. We spend about 6 billion dollars a in week in Affganistan if you all don’t know in the name security and the GOP and Tea Party spend less talkers say nothing………..Kyle you know why.
And Mitt Romney may be haunted by Massachusetts health care cost (Pot Calling Kettle Black)
May 2nd, 2012
8:01 pm
Mitt Romney’s health care albatross isn’t just the similarity between his Massachusetts health care overhaul and President Barack Obama’s health reform law.
It’s also the fact that Massachusetts still has the highest health costs in the country — even after the reforms Romney signed into law as governor.
td
May 2nd, 2012
8:06 pm
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
7:54 pm
The key part of the phrase “pursuit of happiness” is pursuit: an effort to secure or attain.
How is an effort to secure or attain happiness translated into a guaranteed right to healthcare? I submit that if one works and earns enough money to get the proper healthcare then they are meeting the right to pursue happiness. If one is not taking the necessary steps to obtain healthcare then they are not pursuing happiness and if the government hands it out to them then we are really violating their fundamental rights to make an effort.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
8:07 pm
“most people find that pursuit of happiness requires participation of others.”
Really, MarkV? You need the help of others to pursue happiness? Who? Your drug dealer? You have just proven that the only thing liberals believe in is DEPENDENCY.
“If life and pursuit of happiness are among the fundamental human rights, then so is access to health care.”
Once more – Bulls#it!
Two issues, MarkV. The first is the phony name changing you libs love to do. There is no issue with “access” to health care, nor is there any issue with “access” to contraceptives, except if you are denied them due to gender, race or sexual orientation. Government can, and does protect “access” to those services, but it does not and should not guarantee USE of those services simply because you cannot pay for them. Your argument fails the Constitutional test completely.
Second, neither life nor happiness is guaranteed, MarkV. Jefferson and Madison would kick you in what little balls you have if you tried out that argument using their words. And I’d be right with them. Government exists to protect your right to life, liberty and property from those who would try to take them through the use of force or fraud, and nothing else.
But government is not there to guarantee outcomes, MarkV.
Finally, you may not intermix the words of the Constitution, which is the limiting document of government, with the words of the Declaration of Independence to make your Constitutional case. The Supreme Court has never used the words of the Declaration of Independence to rule on a law, and likely never will, as it has nothing to do with government limitations.
md
May 2nd, 2012
8:07 pm
MarkV….I think your “pursuit of happiness” definition is a bit off……I’d counter that we are all free to pursue happiness however we so choose to define it without encroaching on the right of another to pursue that same happiness…….in other words, your happiness can not include me unless I choose to allow it……
Life……means one has a right to life without another taking it away…….not a life that requires others to sustain it. I am not your keeper nor you mine……
Liberty……goes against your definition of ‘rights”, as one can not be “free” if forced to provide healthcare for another…….that then becomes an encroachment on ones liberty.
So, I’ll ask you again……how would you provide the right of healthcare if there are no personnel available??
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
8:09 pm
Martin Williams: What does the GOP and the Tea Party people have on the table in terms of health care Kyle?
—————————
Freedom.
Try it sometime, Democrats.
Michael H. Smith
May 2nd, 2012
8:09 pm
To bad someone doesn’t possess the intellectual ability understand the difference between the words “fundamental” and “inalienable” . The meanings are completely different, as thankfully Mr Jefferson and founders who singed off on the Declaration of Independence were very well aware.
Fundamental rights are subject to forfeiture. Inalienable rights cannot be forfeited. A fundamental right can be earned. An inalienable right cannot be earned, it is endowed by a higher authority.
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
8:12 pm
Tiberius – Banned from Bookman’s and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
7:51 pm
“What about the right to form a militia…or a union”
Joe, you can certainly engage in a militia of one if you so choose.
Your union question is why I do not consider the right to assemble as one that protects the creation of unions, and where I disagree with the liberal Supreme Court that upheld it.
——————————-
Now here is a TRUE PARTISAN….:-)…..
There is no difference between and militia and a Union……..:-)….
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
8:13 pm
My fundamental rights are being violated!!!!!
I’m not going to be happy until MarkV is banned by Kyle.
I’ve got your right to happiness . . . right here, MarkV.
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
8:14 pm
QUESTION: Who will go to Hell first..? The polytheist-heretic-false prophet-polygamist OR the homosexual….?!?!?!?
ANSWER: Neither….it will be the HYPOCRITE….!!!!!!
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
8:15 pm
“There is no difference between and militia and a Union”
Websters Unabridged Dictionary, as well as every other dctionary on the planet, would disagree with you, Joe.
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
8:16 pm
But it does raise one question….If you are the leader of a party that incorporates the Defense of Marriage Act in your platform……..
How can you contribute to your faith that condones polygamy….!?!?!?
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
8:19 pm
Michael H. Smith
May 2nd, 2012
8:09 pm
—————————
So both homosexuality as well as Mormonism would be INALIENABLE rights…!?!??
td
May 2nd, 2012
8:19 pm
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
8:16 pm
What religion are you talking about that endorses polygamy today?
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
8:24 pm
td
May 2nd, 2012
8:19 pm
———————-
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints…..
Documents & Covenants 131:2-4,
Documents &Covenants: 132:60-66:
60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood–if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment,
There’s a ton more of ‘em……
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
8:25 pm
They still accept polygamy, as well…..just not so much in public anymore….
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
8:25 pm
Regardless of political affiliation or lack of….. angry, dysfunctional people are so sad……..
Calling names like little children as if that make them better than the other person
They may have good jobs and “function” for the most part in society, but time always shows who they really are………..
Michael H. Smith
May 2nd, 2012
8:28 pm
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
8:19 pm
Are you running for dumbest kid on the block?!?!?! Or maybe reading comprehension is your weak subject?!?!?!?
Very obvious you skipped history class when the Constitution and Federalism were being discussed!?!?!?
Again you should join MarxV in a refresher course to better understand the difference between a a state granted privilege, fundamental rights to obtain them and inalienable rights!?!?!?
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
8:28 pm
Most of us here are big boys and girls and can handle being called a mean ol’ name.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
8:29 pm
“You have just proven that the only thing liberals believe in is DEPENDENCY.”
Numerous major corporations are “dependent” on government contracts,,,,,,,,,,,,, wonder if all the execs and shareholders are “all liberals”…….
mmmmmmmmmmm
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
8:29 pm
td @8:06 pm, md 8:07 pm
Please pay more attention, will you?
MarkV @4:35 pm: “The access to health care is a fundamental human right.”
td @8:06 pm: “The key part of the phrase “pursuit of happiness” is pursuit: an effort to secure or attain. How is an effort to secure or attain happiness translated into a guaranteed right to healthcare?”
It does not. And if you have paid attention, you would have noticed that I did not write that there is a right to health care, but to an access to health care, which is equivalent to the “pursuit” in the “pursuit of happiness”
md@8:07 pm: “how would you provide the right of healthcare if there are no personnel available??”
Same answer as above.
Not Part of Romney's Flock
May 2nd, 2012
8:30 pm
Barry
Not just you…….. several of the liberals do it as well
Does it make you feel better? Remind you of a time when you grew up? Is that how you interact at home and at work?
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
8:34 pm
Michael H. Smith
May 2nd, 2012
8:28 pm
———————–
I apologize for my ignorance. redneckbluedog was messing me up on a different blog and I did not read the context of your quite elaborate remarks.
and thank you for taking the time to get me up to speed…..
Michael H. Smith
May 2nd, 2012
8:36 pm
The right to pursue happiness, in any form or to any extent, does not mean the protected or assured right to posses or obtain any aspect of said happiness.
Michael H. Smith
May 2nd, 2012
8:40 pm
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
8:34 pm
Nothing elaborate about it. Simple understanding of Constitution and Federalism and the difference between privileges and rights, fundamental or inalienable.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
8:45 pm
“you would have noticed that I did not write that there is a right to health care, but to an access to health care, which is equivalent to the “pursuit” in the “pursuit of happiness””
Oh, please spell THAT one out for us, MarkV. How does government provide for the “access” to health care?
md
May 2nd, 2012
8:45 pm
“And if you have paid attention, you would have noticed that I did not write that there is a right to health care, but to an access to health care, which is equivalent to the “pursuit” in the “pursuit of happiness””
So it’s a moot point considering the SC already ruled on the access aspect of the equation….for now. Access isn’t even part of the current political debate.
But what exactly does “access” to healthcare mean?? If there are no personnel to provide healthcare, does that right no longer exist?? If it can’t exist, then it can not be inalienable…….
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
8:47 pm
Tiberius @8:07 pm: “Really, MarkV? You need the help of others to pursue happiness? Who? Your drug dealer?”
Tiberius,
It does not surprise me in the least that you do not need anybody to pursue happiness. As a matter of fact, for the sake of all that might come in contcatwith you I hope you do not. For you the designation “intelligent life form” is only a technical term, not a true description.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
8:48 pm
And please be specific, MarkV. Do you have the fundamental right to OBTAIN health care regardless of ability to pay for it, or are your rights just limited to availability if you can pay for it?
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
8:52 pm
MarkV, I don’t “need” anybody. That I have the luxury of “wanting” and “obtaining” happiness voluntarily with others is one of the joys of life.
But my happiness, nor the pursuit thereof, is not a right guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
independent thinker
May 2nd, 2012
8:53 pm
If there is no right to health care, why did Reagan pass EMTALA – which guaranties the right to medical care to anyone who shows up in an emergency room? Was he a socialist?
Michael H. Smith
May 2nd, 2012
8:55 pm
Healthcare and healthcare providers do exist and neither is an inalienable right. Humanitarian is less debatable, though, a fundamental right still does not qualify as an inalienable right: Were you endowed by your creator with healthcare or a doctor?
But here is what should be in play on healthcare: Should it be Socialized or Individualized?
I say Individualized and removed from direct political control.
BTW, for these democrats… this entire Safety Net idea belongs to a Republican not a democrat.
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
8:55 pm
md @8:45 pm: “But what exactly does “access” to healthcare mean?? If there are no personnel to provide healthcare, does that right no longer exist?? If it can’t exist, then it can not be inalienable…….”
I have already answered that. You do not lose the inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness because you choose a pursuit that requires something that is not available. The same with health care. A right to an access the health care does not mean to any health care.
Michael H. Smith
May 2nd, 2012
8:57 pm
independent thinker
May 2nd, 2012
8:53 pm
No Reagan wasn’t a Socialist but he was a humanitarian IMHO and EMTALA is humanitarian aid.
independent thinker
May 2nd, 2012
8:58 pm
Little Barry know nothing: If you were to become educated you would know that Obama care did away with Medicare Advantage which included free gym meberships and profits for private administrators. The people who lost their Medicare freebies were the same ones you saw at Tea Party rallies -silver haired moochers who blamed Obama for all the governments ills. Next take away their free scooters if they are overweight and lazy. I do not see Kyles experts or you talking about that. But then you want everyone else to do the research while you call everyone libtards who disagree with you. A sure sign of los IQ.
Michael H. Smith
May 2nd, 2012
8:58 pm
But my happiness, nor the pursuit thereof, is not a right guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
Thanks for the reiteration.
Michael H. Smith
May 2nd, 2012
9:08 pm
How does government provide for the “access” to health care?
IMHO, the GUB’MENT stands in the way of access to healthcare. How many doctors stopped practicing medicine because of Medicare and Medicaid?
I know a of few and others who no longer accept new Medicare patients.
j$
May 2nd, 2012
9:11 pm
ObamaCare is a joke.
Hopefully, next time, someone can identify the main culprits in this medical insurance and health care scam, and do something about it.
not likely.
baby steps
td
May 2nd, 2012
9:13 pm
Joe the Prophet
May 2nd, 2012
8:24 pm
You are trying to take text from older works to justify a position. The church has publicly said it does not endorse polygamy and has thrown out members that have continued to practice it.
“If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her.”
Deuteronomy 25:5
Christians do not practice this text today.
fair and balanced
May 2nd, 2012
9:15 pm
Here is why the right wing hacks want you to believe Obamacare is a failure:
More than 3 million health insurance policyholders and thousands of employers will share $1.3 billion in rebates this year, thanks to President Barack Obama’s health care law, a nonpartisan research group said Thursday. The rebates should average $127 for the people who get them, and Democrats are hoping they’ll send an election-year message that Obama’s much-criticized health care overhaul is starting to pay dividends for consumers. Critics of the law call that wishful thinking.
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/04/27/rebates-from-obamacare-to-top-1-billion-report/
APRIL 27/2012;
Better keep that bad news spin machine going.
td
May 2nd, 2012
9:19 pm
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
8:55 pm
“The same with health care. A right to an access the health care does not mean to any health care.”
I am not understanding where you are coming from on the above statement. Can you please go into a little more detail about your thoughts?
md
May 2nd, 2012
9:20 pm
“You do not lose the inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness because you choose a pursuit that requires something that is not available.”
Except the right to access requires there be someone to deliver said right……and requiring said individual to provide healthcare intrudes on the others right to Liberty……can’t have one and not the other.
And access to nothing is a right to nothing…….
md
May 2nd, 2012
9:25 pm
“Here is why the right wing hacks want you to believe Obamacare is a failure:”
obamacare will be/is a failure because it requires 3 parties to a 2 party equation…..forcing the masses to basically buy at retail (middle man gets his cut) will ensure costs remain higher than they should be. The winners will still be those that have the cash to negotiate a better deal and the losers will be everybody else.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
9:27 pm
“More than 3 million health insurance policyholders and thousands of employers will share $1.3 billion in rebates this year, thanks to President Barack Obama’s health care law . . .The rebates should average $127 for the people who get them”
Yeah, fair and balanced, and at the same time, 350 million Americans (every man, woman and child) are going to get a bill for $125 for the annual increase in the deficit thanks to Obamacare.
Thanks a pantload.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
9:31 pm
independent thinker: Little Barry know nothing: If you were to become educated you would know that Obama care did away with Medicare Advantage which included free gym meberships and blah blah…
——
Irrelevant, since we were talking about Medicare Part D. Why has your Failed Messiah made it even more expensive, all the while complaining about our President Bush having created it?
And Mitt Romney may be haunted by Massachusetts health care cost (Pot Calling Kettle Black)
May 2nd, 2012
9:31 pm
@Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
8:28 pm
Most of us here are big boys and girls and can handle being called a mean ol’ name.
**********************************************************
If EVERYONE is wallowing in the GUTTER, where does that leave you?
And Mitt Romney may be haunted by Massachusetts health care cost (Pot Calling Kettle Black)
May 2nd, 2012
9:35 pm
@Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
May 2nd, 2012
9:31 pm
independent thinker: Little Barry know nothing: If you were to become educated you would know that Obama care did away with Medicare Advantage which included free gym meberships and blah blah…
——
Irrelevant, since we were talking about Medicare Part D. Why has your Failed Messiah made it even more expensive, all the while complaining about our President Bush having created it?
******************************************************************
Why has your WANNABE Messiah MITT WITT made it even more expensive IN MASSACHUSETS, all the while complaining about our PresidMnt OBAMA?
HUH?
the red herring
May 2nd, 2012
9:38 pm
both parties are guilty of over spending. the worst began however when the democrats gained control of the house and senate in 2006/2007 and bush caved. after that it was total democrat control thru 2010. deficits continued to worsen and under obama who proclaimed “i’ll cut the deficit in half in my first term”— it got almost 6 trillion worse—the working and taxpaying americans can no longer afford this insanity. we need more people like paul ryan, tom coburn, etc in congress and in the white house. i think we must have term limits in order to stop the overspending. if you keep re-electing me to overspend in order to benefit you then i’ll most likely keep overspending to satisfy your demand and to gain your vote in order to be re-elected….. GLTA –we sure need it.
And Mitt Romney may be haunted by Massachusetts health care cost (Pot Calling Kettle Black)
May 2nd, 2012
9:41 pm
@md
May 2nd, 2012
9:25 pm
“Here is why the right wing hacks want you to believe Obamacare is a failure:”
obamacare will be/is a failure because it requires 3 parties to a 2 party equation…..forcing the masses to basically buy at retail (middle man gets his cut) will ensure costs remain higher than they should be. The winners will still be those that have the cash to negotiate a better deal and the losers will be everybody else.
*************************************************************************
AND MITT WITT will do any BETTER?
I don’t think so.
Ask anyone in Massa chew sets.
It’s a FACT that Massachusetts still has the highest health costs in the country — even after the reforms Romney signed into law as governor.
md
May 2nd, 2012
9:53 pm
“AND MITT WITT will do any BETTER?”
Actually, yes. He believes each State should decide for themselves how they want to manage their healthcare……so yes, I’ll take 50 States working toward a solution that may benefit everybody vs one party’s vision of utopia that may take everybody down together.
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
9:53 pm
td @9:19 pm
MarkV: “The same with health care. A right to an access the health care does not mean to any health care.”
“I am not understanding where you are coming from on the above statement. Can you please go into a little more detail about your thoughts?”
I was responding to your comment “If there are no personnel to provide healthcare, does that right no longer exist?? If it can’t exist, then it can not be inalienable…….”
To explain, I will ask you:
1. Do you agree with the authors and signatories of the Declaration of Independence, that pursuit of happiness is an unalienable right, and that governments are instituted to secure it (among others)? If not, there is no reason to discuss it further.
2. If you agree, then do you agree that that right exists even if in your pursuit of happiness you would, for instance, wanted to fly to Mars, and it was not possible? Does this impossibility means that, as you suggested above, that unalienable right to pursue your happiness no longer exists? I you think so, then again there is no point discussing it further.
3. But if you believe that the right as a principle still exists, why would a right to an access to health care do no longer existed just because there were some objective conditions that made a particular form of access impossible? When the government secures the right, whether to pursuit of happiness or to an access to health care, it cannot mean that pursuit or access are without limits.
@@
May 2nd, 2012
9:55 pm
I wouldn’t have expected this…even from the Obama administration.
Administration officials began the day touting what they depicted as a foreign-policy conquest: an arrangement designed to allow Mr. Chen, a blind activist known as a barefoot lawyer, to remain in China with his family, safe from harassment by authorities.
But in phone calls from the hospital where he went after leaving the safety of the U.S. embassy in Beijing, Mr. Chen told reporters and friends about his fears that the deal would fail to protect his family, seeming to contradict what U.S. officials had said.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303877604577380592235216200.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
9:59 pm
“Why has your WANNABE Messiah MITT WITT made it even more expensive IN MASSACHUSETS, all the while complaining about our PresidMnt OBAMA?”
You need to understand that Mass. health care rates were rising at some of the fastest percentages in the nation before Romneycare.
Now? Not so much.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
10:05 pm
MarkV, once again you are mixing documents, which you may not do.
The Declaration if Independence is an aspirational document.
The Constitution is one that defines the role and limitations of government.
The ONLY thing they have in common are the men who largely wrote them.
Your argument is wholly without merit.
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
10:08 pm
Stop wordsmithing, MarkV.
Does your “access” to health care mean “obtaining” health care or not?
And Mitt Romney may be haunted by Massachusetts health care cost (Pot Calling Kettle Black)
May 2nd, 2012
10:08 pm
@the red herring
May 2nd, 2012
9:38 pm
“i’ll cut the deficit in half in my first term”— it got almost 6 trillion worse—the working and taxpaying americans can no longer afford this insanity. we need more people like paul ryan, tom coburn, etc in congress and in the white house.
************************************************************
NEED more people like paul ryan?
YOU WILL BE SCR#WED with the rest of us with the PAUL RYAN BUDGET.
YO Boy Ryan is a follower of Ayn Rand .
Paul Ryan is trying very hard to put daylight between himself and Ayn Rand, the right’s leading advocate of selfishness, greed and laissez-faire capitalism.
Her philosopy was the DEFEAT of the widely held, pernicious ideologies that dominate contemporary culture and threaten our liberty—ideologies SUCH AS collectivism, moral relativism and multiculturalism.
Collectivism is the practice or principle of giving a group priority over each individual in it.
Moral relativism says that anything goes,
MULTICULTURALISM is a philosophy that appreciates ethnic diversity within a society and that encourages people to learn from the contributions of those of diverse ethnic backgrounds.
NEED PAUL RYAN.
Be careful what you wish for.
And Mitt Romney may be haunted by Massachusetts health care cost (Pot Calling Kettle Black)
May 2nd, 2012
10:09 pm
@Tiberius – Banned from Bookman’s and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
9:59 pm
“Why has your WANNABE Messiah MITT WITT made it even more expensive IN MASSACHUSETS, all the while complaining about our PresidMnt OBAMA?”
You need to understand that Mass. health care rates were rising at some of the fastest percentages in the nation before Romneycare.
Now? Not so much.
****************************************************************
LINK PLEASE
And Mitt Romney may be haunted by Massachusetts health care cost (Pot Calling Kettle Black)
May 2nd, 2012
10:13 pm
@md
May 2nd, 2012
9:53 pm
“AND MITT WITT will do any BETTER?”
So yes, I’ll take 50 States working toward a solution that may benefit everybody vs one party’s vision of utopia that may take everybody down together.
****************************************************************************************
SO YOU CAN PREDICT THE FUTURE?
What ARE the numbers for MEGA MILLIONS OR WIN FOR LIFE?
md
May 2nd, 2012
10:22 pm
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
To simplify matters, one should understand that to list those 3 rights together means one right can not circumvent another………access to healthcare can not be a right if it infringes on ones right to liberty……….otherwise, the writers were total idiots.
And access to healthcare is not at issue, so what’s the beef?
Tiberius - Banned from Bookman's and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
10:22 pm
“LINK PLEASE”
http://www.google.com
You’ve provided NOTHING but crap this evening,Trashman, so it’s time for you to get to work, son.
md
May 2nd, 2012
10:25 pm
“SO YOU CAN PREDICT THE FUTURE?”
No…..but I can read.
16 trillion in debt……
Obamacare already revised to cost more…..and hasn’t even been implemented……
Medicare in trouble….
Medicaid in trouble…..
SS in trouble……
Europe in trouble…….
Those are pretty easy to read tea leaves.
td
May 2nd, 2012
10:25 pm
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
9:53 pm
Thank you for the explanation.
I will go back to my original post to you:
“The key part of the phrase “pursuit of happiness” is pursuit: an effort to secure or attain.”
Is it not true that by the government providing healthcare to people without any conditions really the same as them taking away a fundamental right from those people? If you are given something by the government then you are not making an effort to receive the happiness and therefore are having your rights taken away from you by the government.
Now the government could grant access to anyone the ability to join their pools at the same cost as its employees pay and that would solve the issue you have about access and happiness and my issue about no effort means no right.
@@
May 2nd, 2012
10:37 pm
Among the many things I did not know.
How Deval Patrick Gutted Romneycare’s Market-Oriented Health Reforms.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/04/12/how-deval-patrick-gutted-romneycares-market-oriented-reforms/
Very interesting!
Romney genuinely strove for a free-market-based solution to the grave problems with Massachusetts’ dysfunctional insurance market. But Romney put too much faith in the willingness of Democrats to implement his ideas, as opposed to their own, especially after Romney left office. Romney’s biggest mistake was the individual mandate. The individual mandate was a loaded gun that Romney handed to his opponents, who used it to force individuals to buy comprehensive insurance they didn’t need.
Can’t trust Democrats as evidenced by Kyle’s column today.
“Obamacare costs more than advertised, double-counting edition”
j$
May 2nd, 2012
10:46 pm
Thank you, and good nite, @@.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE-Okqna4sQ lol
snoqualmiepass
May 2nd, 2012
10:48 pm
Sorry MarkV… you will never win a factual or theoretical arguement with T-Ban.. He sets the rules, provides a cogent reply and concludes with a nasty little comment. He provides all of us an unvarnished interpetation of authoritian conservatism, something he thrives on, an ideologue all the way.. have to admire his world view through…. his blinders makes it all so simple… why else could he have banned from another column?
And Mitt Romney may be haunted by Massachusetts health care cost (Pot Calling Kettle Black)
May 2nd, 2012
10:48 pm
@Tiberius – Banned from Bookman’s and proud of it!
May 2nd, 2012
10:22 pm
“LINK PLEASE”
http://www.google.com
You’ve provided NOTHING but crap this evening,Trashman, so it’s time for you to get to work, son.
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Google??????
heeheeheeheeheeheehhee
Pro-Gingrich super PAC blames ‘Romneycare’ for spiraling health care costs
@@
May 2nd, 2012
10:48 pm
j$:
You’re always welcome.
md
May 2nd, 2012
10:51 pm
Not to mention the additional costs to the States for Obamacare when the States are already slashing everything in sight…….tick, tick, tick.
And no, the millions in additional administrative costs are not covered in Obamacare……just mandated.
Think CA can stand to add to it’s mega billion debt load? And are GA citizens ready and willing to bail them out for choosing not to have a balanced budget amendment like GA has??
And Mitt Romney may be haunted by Massachusetts health care cost (Pot Calling Kettle Black)
May 2nd, 2012
10:53 pm
@md
May 2nd, 2012
10:25 pm
“SO YOU CAN PREDICT THE FUTURE?”
No…..but I can read.
16 trillion in debt……
Obamacare already revised to cost more…..and hasn’t even been implemented……
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HASN’T BEEN IMPLEMENTED?
So you can predict the future?
I still want the numbers for MEGA MILLIONS, WIN FOR LIFE, FANTASY FIVE.
md
May 2nd, 2012
10:55 pm
“So you can predict the future?”
As I said, I can read……now go get the latest CBO report and educate yourself……
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
10:56 pm
md 210:22 pm; ‘And access to healthcare is not at issue, so what’s the beef?’
Ask those, who attacked me for writing thatthe access was a right. Were you not one of them?
md
May 2nd, 2012
11:05 pm
MarkV….from your earlier post:
“The fundamental facts are that each year a certain number of people in the country are sick, get sick, or injured. Those people should get health care. That costs money. Because nobody knows when and how he/she will get sick or injured, the only sensible way of guaranteeing the health care all people should receive is some form of universal insurance.
The access to health care is a fundamental human right.
It is a government’s duty to guarantee it.”
You yourself have mixed up the concepts…..one sentence it’s “should have healthcare”, and the next it’s “access to healthcare”…….they are not the same.
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
11:06 pm
td @10:25 pm
“Is it not true that by the government providing healthcare to people without any conditions really the same as them taking away a fundamental right from those people? “
It certainly is not true. I do not think you can provide any logical argument for that statement. Apart from that, I do not see that it has anything to do with what I was writing about. As for the government granting access etc, as you write, that is a quite different issue. I might agree with you, but that would require a much more detailed elaboration from both sides than I could go into now.
And Mitt Romney may be haunted by Massachusetts health care cost (Pot Calling Kettle Black)
May 2nd, 2012
11:13 pm
@md
May 2nd, 2012
10:55 pm
“So you can predict the future?”
As I said, I can read……now go get the latest CBO report and educate yourself……
********************************************************************************
lanoissergnoC tegduB eciffO (OBC)
A dnim si a elbirret gniht ot etsaw
heeheeheeheeheeheeheehee
MarkV
May 2nd, 2012
11:16 pm
md @11:05 pm
“You yourself have mixed up the concepts…..one sentence it’s “should have healthcare”, and the next it’s “access to healthcare”…….they are not the same.”
I have not mixed up concepts. In the first instance “should have health care” is my opinion of the general moral imperative in any civilized society. The second, “access to health care,” is my the interpretation of the fundamental values of this country regarding the rights as expressed in the Declaration, and of the opinion of the authors and signatories that the government is instituted to secure such a right.
Love me some Reagan
May 2nd, 2012
11:18 pm
“why else could he have banned from another column?”
Stupidity for starters
Get Real
May 2nd, 2012
11:28 pm
Banned from Bookman’s blog should be considered a badge of honor…
fair and balanced
May 3rd, 2012
12:29 am
According to Mr. M ichael Smith when a Republican president forces the insured and hospitals to cover the costs of the uninsured , they are being “humanitarian” but if a Democrat forces people to buy insurance and pay for their emergency medical care the Democrats are being socialists. something is half a–ed backwards about that view point.
captguitarman
May 3rd, 2012
1:14 am
Yes, Obamacare will turn out to be the Mother of All Entitlements. The cost estimates are no where near accurate, and purposefully so, and the creative accounting just exacerbates the problem. The Dems passed this hugely unpopular bill by a gnat’s hair in the depths of the Great Recession — and for one reason — because they could, knowing that this chance would never come again. With Social Security and Medicare already heading directly toward insolvency, they passed it — and they passed it so quickly, using so many back room deals, bribes, hand shakes, etc. they don’t even know what is in it. But even so, they knew it was one of the worst pieces of legislation ever concieved by Congress, so they carefully backloaded the “difficult” provisions so that they would not kick in until after the 2012 election. Once those provisions kick in, and as Nancy Pelosi prophesied, we all find out what is really in this bill, it could have a long-reaching negative effect on the Dems, much like the Great Depression did when Hoover was president – which created a Dem majority in Congress for forty years. The SCOTUS would acutally be doing Obama and the Dems a favor, along with all the rest of us, by de-railing this bill. As you may have noted, Obama and the Dems never talk about it, brag about it, point to it. They know that its contents could be their undoing for many years to come.
greg
May 3rd, 2012
7:16 am
Can’t wait for my health care run like the Post Office and tag depts. ASPIRIN ??
seabeau
May 3rd, 2012
8:08 am
I say “A Plague ON BOTH OF THEIR HOUSES”. Support a State Called National Constitutional Convention, to curb the excesses of the Federal Government.
sircharles
May 3rd, 2012
8:22 am
All comments are important here. Democrates or Republicians don’t matter because they both work behind doors to make us all responsible for bills they write and approve on the House Floor. We think because we have name ourselves a democrate or republician we are doing something. No matter which side you take, you are merely making it easy for them to help you spend your tax dollars to make them more rich and make it appear that they are doing something for us….they are not! We all need some type of health care insurance; it may save your life. All of these congressmen get health care and retirement pay for the rest of their lives, including their families and what do we get? Its time we show that we too, have a stake in this world we live in and we should get the same treatments they do. We all should push this issue if nothing else!
GT
May 3rd, 2012
8:32 am
Clean it all up. The accounting distracts from the real problems. In the Reagan administration the Republicans rode the S&L crisis in ,off book accounting, till it was a tsunami that was too big to ignore. They were preaching austerity and instead of fixing an embarrassing problem early and saving the country huge money, they left bad S&Ls in operation and the cancer got terminal. In the private sector they call this cooking the books, and like MCI people, go to jail for “claiming all is well”, when bombs are going off. Wall Street did the same head turn in the Bush administration. Very much like the S&L crisis they had investors and money managers over there heads, selling and managing stuff that the government and the private sector were clueless on, more less the investors, ignoring it until one day you are a mile under water looking at fish. The guy next door is beating his wife but we don’t call the police and he eventually kills the woman.
Now they want the health problem to go away the same way. We are paying for this right now, unless we start having dead bodies, not allowed treatment, lined up in front of Grady Hospital and we are paying for it at the premium price of today’s out of control medical industry. Only when it reached the Supreme Court where a more factual conversation was triggered, did the right even acknowledge they need to have something done about the problem. The sad thing is this is about the only area that honest conversation is held any more, in a court of law under oath. If the Wall Street Journal were to discover the cure of cancer and it would have to give the left credit, a lot of people in this country would die, because it would never go to press. The owner of this once fine paper, may very well find himself in jail the next year or so, but your are spellbound by his work, because it justifies your selfishness and lack of initiative.
killerj
May 3rd, 2012
8:33 am
We the people can be like Greece,give me some tar & feathers I want to have some fun!
GT
May 3rd, 2012
8:54 am
Wall Street helped Greece along the way selling them derivatives that were worthless. They were going to lower their interest rate by 90%, didn’t work. Jefferson County took the same ride. Both times huge bonuses were paid for nothing except stealing, to investment bankers who then complained about having to pay taxes off their stolen money. This is the stuff the Wall Street Journal use to write about before it was bought by Murdock and turned into the National Enquirer feeding red meat to mobsters.
fair and balanced
May 3rd, 2012
9:19 pm
All I got out of Kyle’s article is that he was reporting an article in Rupert Mordoch’s rag sheet as being fact with no investigation . Then he gets his anti-Obama dig in in the last sentence based on unsupported facts from two biased sources as reported by someone else- fair and balanced reporting or just political rhetoric?????
Joe Biden
May 3rd, 2012
9:48 pm
Perhaps if the readers want the truth about Mr. blahaus’ unsubstaiated hack job, they should read the following article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-weird-baseline-obamacares-opponents-are-using/2012/04/10/gIQAu3de8S_blog.html
It seems Mr. Blahaus assumes that currently their is no deficit in medicare and uses that as an incorrect baseline.
“”"”But to get that answer, you have to abandon the idea that the right way to score a bill is to see if more money is coming in then going out. That’s what Blahous has done here. But no one is interested in actually moving to that kind of a baseline. That baseline would mean neither Medicare nor Social Security’s looming fiscal challenges actually add to the deficit. That baseline would mean the “Obama deficits” are quite small. That baseline would mean Paul Ryan’s budget is “double counting.Lots of the Affordable Care Act’s skeptics are trumpeting the Blahous study. But none of them actually use that baseline. Nor do they plan to switch over to it. And that means they don’t really believe the study.”"”"
“The Bizarre Baseline Games You Need to Play to make Obamacare Increase the Deficit”"
Posted by Ezra Kleinat 03:01 PM ET, 04/10/2012