Poll Position: Who’s right about Romney’s time at Bain?

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
12:02 pm

Someone on Morning Joe this morning said that Bain Capital got it wrong 22% of the time (meaning lost jobs or closed companies).

That means they got it right 78% of the time.

I think most people would be ecstatic with a .780 batting average, wouldn’t you?

Road Scholar

January 13th, 2012
12:06 pm

Ti: Except for those who lost their jobs!

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
12:08 pm

Wrong question, Kyle. Romney is wrong when he tries to claim that what he did at Blain was to create jobs. It was to make profit, pure and simple, without regard to who gets hurt. And his Republican detractors are wrong when they praise the free market system and at the same time attack Romney for exercising it.

ragnar danneskjold

January 13th, 2012
12:10 pm

I’m not particularly a Romney fan, but Rush offered a great argument yesterday. Warren Buffet buys strong companies, strips the cash out, and is lauded by the leftists. Bain Capital bought dying companies, turned most of them around, and is condemned by the leftists. Nice to see a real turnaround artist running for president, given our need for same.

Matthias Klein

January 13th, 2012
12:11 pm

Let’s face the dire truth. The US is founded on vulture capitalism. What else is slavery?

It is a myth that capitalism is pure and good by itself and must not be regulated. It is now time to stand up for true righteousness and expose the hypocrisy.

Remember the civil war and how unwillingness and stubborness led to the bloodiest war in the history of the US. Great Britain got rid of slavery in a peaceful way. The United States, where all men are created equal on paper, had to have it pried out of their fingers.

What would happen if the rich, who profit from vulture capitalism, and their powerful friends in the media and in Washington, are as stubborn and unwilling to acknowledge the evil of vulture capitalism. Why would God not bring justice to those oppressed by this selfish system as He did for the slaves?

Watch my video: A German’s preachers thoughts on 2012.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpLYq525SpM

carlosgvv

January 13th, 2012
12:16 pm

Matthias Klein – 12:11

Everything you say is true. Unfortunately, our system of predatory capitalism is so broken that no amount of protest will ever fix it. The only solution is for American voters to replace it with Socialism. Many people don’t want to hear this, but being in denial will only extend the amout of time we all suffer under the current system.

DeborahinAthens

January 13th, 2012
12:18 pm

I’m a Democrat. I have been a stockbroker/financial advisor for 26 years. I started out in investment banking, and you don’t get more capitalist than that! I love watching Newt and Perry do their song and dance, it is just more illustrations of their hypocrisy. They believe in small government, too, except when they want to tell you how to live your life, then they propose every Contitution bending law their mean little minds can conjur up. These idiots would rape their own grandmother and eat their young to get elected, so why does this behavior shock any of you? Dubya the Dumb did the same thing. His Rove-led juggarnaut absolutely slandered and destroyed John McCain, then the Repugs, idiots that they are, were shocked-SHOCKED- when the Dems used the same arguments against McCain when he ran against Obama. All I can say is keep up the good work…Obama 2012!!!

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
12:32 pm

Yeah, carlos, great idea.

As if Socialism has worked in any way, shape or form in the history of the world.

You’re kinda like that poor, dumb redneck who says “I wonder what happens if I do this . . . “. Nothing good can come of that.

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
12:33 pm

I support Romney and his tenure at Bain!

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
12:35 pm

I think most people would be ecstatic with a .780 batting average, wouldn’t you?

Since we’re talking about people’s lives rather than baseball, the analogy is sad. I can assure you that those who lost their livelihoods, and perhaps more, are not ecstatic. Neither are those of us care about them.

ragnar,

Which companies did Berkshire “strip cash out of”? Which companies did Berkshire bankrupt by adding debt (as Bain has done)? It’s my understanding that Buffet purchases undervalued, well-run companies and, generally, leaves management alone to continue doing what they did to make the company strong in the first place. That’s a far cry from what Bain has done to American Pad & Paper (or AmPad) and others. I think your comparison is weak.

Ayn Rant

January 13th, 2012
12:36 pm

I don’t give a flip about Romney’s past. The race for President should be about the future course of the nation, not about the personalities of the candidates.

So far, the Republican candidates have offered nothing more than the standard line of bull: tax breaks for the super rich, deregulation for the financial manipulators and environment polluters, denigration of the poor, and oppression of gays and pregnant women. There’s hasn’t been a peep from them about a method to move the economy out of stagnation and bring the US infrastructure into the 21st century.

Why can’t we have candidates who address the issues of the American people rather than a bunch of has-been’s with shady pasts and no concept of the future?

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
12:37 pm

Bart….maybe the ones that “lost their livelihoods” should have worked harder and been a more valuable asset to the company.

td

January 13th, 2012
12:38 pm

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
12:08 pm

It was to make a profit for whom? The investors in Bain and himself? Is this not what free enterprise is all about?

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
12:43 pm

td @12:38 pm

Why are you asking me that question? Isn’t that what I wrote?

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
12:47 pm

carlosgvv @12:16 pm

Socialism is a failed system. Nobody who really knows what socialism means and has some sense will support it.

hsn

January 13th, 2012
12:49 pm

*I didn’t realize Gingrich and Perry were running for “presidential sparring partner” instead of president.*
=================================================================

Gingrinch and Perry are running for President not “sparring partner.”
Where were you when a pro-Romney PAC were lambasting Gingrich in Iowa?

Gingrich and Perry are poking holes in claims Romney has made about his “achievements” as a “businessman” and that is fair and it is also NOT AN ATTACK on capitalism. That is akin to saying anyone who critiques Obama is assaulting the US government.

If pro-Romney supporters like you and others would rather prefer that Romney not be vetted but be “handed” the nomination without breaking a sweat, then why hold primaries?

You guys were ok with Romney-backed super pacs attacking Gingrich a few weeks ago. Fact: Romney IS NOT a conservative. He will say anything he needs to say or do to get the nomination, but true southern conservatives will not be fooled by this fraudulent RINO, who actually bragged about being a “moderate Republican” in a Mass election.

Now he is masquerading as a conservative. He is a fraud and if nominated, the Obama campaign will have a field day.

JF McNamara

January 13th, 2012
12:49 pm

It is what it is. He is essentially Gordon Gekko, and he is unapologetic about it. He flip flops on everything, but he hasn’t flip flopped on this. That’s not illegal, but is he the person you want running the United States?

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
12:49 pm

ragnar’s comparison with Warren Buffet (a company that most admire) demonstrates that attacks against Bain under Romney’s tenure are not attacks against free enterprise and capitalism. Nobody has a problem with one group of investors purchasing a company from another group of owners or investors. It’s the approach the Romney used to make these acquisitions that are so distasteful.

If you get a $100,000 mortgage loan to buy a house, and subsequently sell the house with the loan still outstanding, you don’t get to keep the all proceeds from the sale of the house. You have to pay back the loan, and you only get to keep the profit, if any.

On the other hand, with leveraged buyouts, the buyers would use the strong balance sheet of a well managed business to get a loan to acquire that business. However, when sold, the investors don’t have to repay the loan. The company they unloaded is stuck with the debt. Sometimes that debt (that wouldn’t otherwise exist) leads to cuts in benefits, payroll, layoffs, bankruptcy, and/or total closure.

That’s not capitalism. That’s a loophole. And it’s a loophole that only the wealthiest among us can take advantage of. It needs to be closed.

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
12:51 pm

JF….there is nothing to be apologetic about!

hsn

January 13th, 2012
12:54 pm

Look at the fraud:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ2FdqufKdA&feature=player_embedded

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
12:55 pm

Romney and his supporters fail to mention that not only were people hurt so that he could make money, but the taxpayers were stuck with a 44 million bailout of the pension fund.

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
12:56 pm

MarkV…..and?

Somewhere over there

January 13th, 2012
12:59 pm

Perry and Gingrich need to drop out of the race. This is embarrassing for the GOP.

Somewhere over there

January 13th, 2012
1:00 pm

“It seems some Republican candidates think Mitt Romney was too much of a capitalist.”

Yep and Gingrich/Perry look as bad as Obama.

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
1:02 pm

Romney is also advertising Bain’s success with a company in Dekalb County, Indiana called Steel Dynamics. What Romney didn’t advertise is that Steel Dynamics received generous tax breaks/subsidies from the state and county. The community actually imposed a new income tax to help Romney’s company.

Using the language of the right, I think it’s fair to say that the man is both a welfare queen and a socialist.

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
1:04 pm

Bart….Steel Dynamics has a facility in Duluth, Ga. as well. Reaching much?

wallbanger

January 13th, 2012
1:06 pm

MarkV and others: What is wrong with wanting to make a profit? Doing it legally? This is America. This is what it is about. To those of you who want to whine about companies going under. Well they go under anyway, Bain or no Bain. Bain did a service apparently 3 out of 4 times saved companies. How come we aren’t talking about the positive side. Frankly, there is no merit in being a poor man if you can be a rich man. Rich men hire poor men after all.

jconservative

January 13th, 2012
1:06 pm

Well, we can have capital from private sources, such as Bain, or we can have capital from government sources. Apparently Gingrich and Perry frown on private capital. That leaves government capital. I am not surprised by Gingrich favoring government capital, liberalism has always been his philosophical base. But I am surprised that Perry, the governor of a state with such a large number of capitalist, adopted the liberal solution. Expect his Texas money to dry up.

This nation needs to grow its economy. We can do it with private capital, government capital or a combination of the two. The latter option, which we have been practicing for decades, leads to $16 trillion national debts. Which is OK if we can find a way to pay the debt. So far we have refused to even entertain the subject, much less make a decision on paying off the debt.

We need more Bain’s, not fewer.

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
1:10 pm

UGA,

Please consider changing your handle. Your use of it is an embarrassment to the institution that many of us love so much.

td

January 13th, 2012
1:11 pm

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
12:35 pm

Lets do talk about peoples lives. What about the lives and futures of all the investors in Bain? These Teacher retirement funds, public service workers funds and 401K funds invest in Bain to give them a return on their investments so that they can have a retirement savings. Is Bain not suppose to maximise their return on investment? How do you think Teachers are able to pay less then a $100 per month for 30 years in a retirement fund and then be able to draw 70 to 100% of the highest years salaries for the next 20, 30 plus years?

td

January 13th, 2012
1:14 pm

JF McNamara

January 13th, 2012
12:49 pm

Do you think the teachers in CA and TX would say he is Gordon Geeko or would they say he has made it so they can have a nice retirement?

JDW

January 13th, 2012
1:17 pm

I think Mark V is on the right track when he says “Romney is wrong when he tries to claim that what he did at Blain was to create jobs. It was to make profit, pure and simple”. That said Newt et al are simply picking a strategy, no matter how unfounded or distasteful, to win an election. Did you expect more from them? I don’t.

Back to Romney, in some cases the byproduct of his business was to create jobs in others not and frankly, I don’t have a problem with that. As someone who has been forced to be the bearer of bad news on a large scale you do have a tendency to think more in terms of numbers than people but frankly to keep your sanity you have to.

At the end of the day, in the corporate world, the winner is he whom creates the most value…that typically means the most profits with the fewest number of people. Sure companies embark on “Green Initiatives”, “Community Outreach”, or “Social Responsibly” initiatives but in most case those are expected to enhance not detract from the bottom line.

I know I know there is a new wave of “Socially Responsible” companies that count among their values support for issues other than profitability (Google for one). Those are great but if profits go so do those other things in short order. Bottom line companies are in the business of profit and governments are in the business of social responsibility.

BTW this really doesn’t qualify as reprehensible….what Chambliss did to Cleland in Ga. and Bush did to McCain is SC that was reprehensible.

JDW

January 13th, 2012
1:20 pm

@Bart…”Please consider changing your handle. Your use of it is an embarrassment to the institution that many of us love so much.”

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
1:22 pm

Bart….is that all you’ve got? Wow that hurt! hahaaha.

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
1:23 pm

td,

Yes, Bain is supposed to maximize their return on investment. But they have to do so within the guidelines of ethics and fairness that we, as a country, agree on.

Surely you don’t support maximizing one’s return on investment by murdering your competitors (as the mafia does). Surely you don’t support maximizing one’s return on investment by lying to potential buyers of your stock about the strength of the financials (which the Gingrich super-PAC film accuses Romney of having done).

We all agree that there are reasonable limits and restrictions on how investors can maximize returns. The debate is about which limits to apply and which limits not to apply.

The question I have is should investors be able to borrow money against the assets of company and then unload that debt onto the company itself rather than be required to repay the loan themselves (as we must do with a mortgage loan, for example)? I say no. As far as I’m concerned, that’s not capitalism any more than murdering your competition to maximize profits is capitalism.

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
1:25 pm

Bart….and what ethics would those be? Only they ones that you personally approve of?

carlosgvv

January 13th, 2012
1:26 pm

Tiberius – MarkV

I told you something you did not want to hear and you reacted just as I knew you would. Any political system is only as good as the people running it. Predatory capitalism, by it’s very nature, attracts Sociopathic people who are only interested in themselves. If honest Socialist politicians run for office and are elected, you will live in a much improved America. Stay in denial if you like but you’re only hurting yourselves.
re

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
1:28 pm

Bart…Your comments sound more like a union than Bain.

retiredds

January 13th, 2012
1:29 pm

poor old Newt, he’s going after Romney because he speaks French. What a fool.

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
1:33 pm

Too many questions here. I do not know the answers.

Would THE company have failed if Bain/Romney had not bought it?

Would pensioners still have gotten their pensions?

Was there anything illegal in Bain’s purchase? Like what?

To buy a sound company is “venture” but buying a failing one is “vulture”?

Is the purchase by Bain any different from thousands of other business purchases?

Delta may buy Anerican airline. Is that venture or vulture outside the political world?

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
1:34 pm

Dusty….amen.

td

January 13th, 2012
1:39 pm

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
1:23 pm

Your since of anger is misplaced. Has Bain broke the law? Has Bain played by the rules set out before them? Your since of anger is misplaced. Bain has played within the rules the government has established. Since they have been in business then that means the rules have been written while both parties held the office of the President and while both parties have controlled Congress.

If you do not like the law then work to change the law but you can not blame a company for playing within the guidelines set in front of them.

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
1:41 pm

Would THE company have failed if Bain/Romney had not bought it?

No, not likely.

That’s the problem. The reason these companies are frequently taken over is because they have low debt, strong balance sheets, and are well managed. In many cases, they went bankrupt because of the debt left behind by the investors who took over the company…debt that otherwise would not have existed.

Is it illegal? No. But if enough people knew and understood about the bizarre loophole in our laws that makes this possible (such loans without recourse don’t apply to other forms of borrowing), then I suspect that it would be.

AceDawg

January 13th, 2012
1:42 pm

Looking forward to seeing the video before offering my real thoughts, but on the surface I’d agree with those that are backing Romney, at least on this issue, that venture capitalism is nothing to be attacked by those in support of economic freedom. If Romney is simply reflected as some sort of heartless jerk in the video, so be it, but I would have a hard time retaining even an ounce of respect for those who attempt to undermine free enterprise for political purposes.

td

January 13th, 2012
1:43 pm

carlosgvv

January 13th, 2012
1:26 pm

If socialist politicians start winning elections then they will have Sociopathic people would be converting to socialism platform (same thing Dems did in Georgia with converting to Republicans) If you do not believe that then you my friend are living in a dream world.

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
1:43 pm

Bart….I am sure they know….give the American people more credit.

Odis

January 13th, 2012
1:45 pm

The issue I have with Mittens is that he’s spinning what he did while at Bain as if their main objective was the creation of jobs. It was not, it was to make a profit. Wait until the discussion of Bain turns to the $10 MILLION DOLLAR government handout it received back in 1991 to save it from going bankrupt or how the governement had to step in and cover another companys pension fund after Bain looted the company for millions of dollars. Mitt Romney got wealthy, while the working class got the shaft.

How is it that Bain could go into a company make MILLIONS of dollars on “consulting fees” and then the company ends up bankrupt shortly after?

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
1:46 pm

carlosgvv @1:26 pm

Carlos, the only thing that perhaps excuses you is ignorance of Socialism. Perhaps the conservatives, who call every social progress “Socialism,” who are so ignorant that they call Obama and everybody who disagrees with them a Socialist, have confused you.

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
1:48 pm

td,

Nobody is arguing that Bain broke the law. When people criticize Gingrich for serial adultery, nobody is arguing that he broke the law. When people criticize Obama for joining a church they don’t like, nobody is arguing that Obama broke the law.

The debate is about ethics and fairness and right and wrong. So I’m talking about whether a law that doesn’t exist, should exist.

Unfortunately, some people need a law to tell them the difference between right and wrong. That’s precisely why we have them. But the notion that you can’t criticize Romney for doing something because he didn’t break the law is not persuasive.

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
1:49 pm

Carlos, the socialist who proclaims:” If honest socialist politicians run for office and are elected, you will live in a much improved America.”

Yeah, sure, and after that we can have a fine communist America where everything is supplied and no worry about jobs or home because you have an assigned one and medical care is free and there are no rich people (except leaders) and we are all non-thinking little tadpoles in a big mudhole.

Amazing that Americans don’t eat up that happy harpy land, Carlos. They could rid themselves of all that independence and faulty freedom. Seems you like the idea.

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
1:49 pm

Carlos,….if you are confused on Socialism…read Obama’s book, he lays it all out.

td

January 13th, 2012
1:50 pm

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
1:46 pm

“call Obama and everybody who disagrees with them a Socialist”

By Obama’s own words admits that he is a European democratic socialist.

td

January 13th, 2012
2:03 pm

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
1:48 pm
td,

.

“The debate is about ethics and fairness and right and wrong. So I’m talking about whether a law that doesn’t exist, should exist. ”

Whose ethical code did Bain break? Did they break their ethical duty to their investors? Are millions of teachers in CA and TX retirement funds not in better shape today then prior to them investing their money with Bain?

What “Fairness” are you talking about? The question comes down to do corporations exist to take care of people and to provide people with jobs or do they exist to maximise profits and give the largest return possible to their investors?

I try not to invest my hard earned money in companies that do not want to give me the biggest return on my investment. If your community bank wants to pay you 5% interest for you to put your money in savings and Bank of America is currently paying you 2% then where do you want to put your money? Now you do know that when you take your money out of BOA then a person is going to get fired and lose their pension. What happens if you currently own a Ford, you do your research and decide a KIA is the best investment for you when you go buy a new car. That $30,000 decision you just made cost a person at Ford there job.

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
2:10 pm

Mark V

So every conservative names EVERY “social program” as socialism? Really?

Maybe so. For good reason. I would call ObamaCare socialistic and overtaxing the rich to provide for others as socialistic and taking almost one half of most mid level worker’s pay for the government as socialistic and the owning of former private companies by government as socialistic and the list goes on.

Why do you think the free thinking American who demands less government in their lives and work are misnaming the efforts of a growing invasive government as socialistic? It is simply calling the encroaching catastrophe of socialism for what it is.

td

January 13th, 2012
2:15 pm

Mark V

Obama’s own written words:

“I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists and punk-rock performance poets.” – Barack Obama (Dreams of My Father)

“Political discussions, the kind at Occidental had once seemed so intense and purposeful, came to take on the flavor of the socialist conferences I sometimes attended at Cooper Union” – Barack Obama (Dreams of My Father)

1961_Xer

January 13th, 2012
2:30 pm

carlosgvv: “The only solution is for American voters to replace it with Socialism. ”

Which would you prefer: the Greek socialist system, China, North Korea, Cuba, or maybe like the old Soviet Union?

Odis

January 13th, 2012
2:31 pm

Let’s debate this part of Romney’s career at Bain….

So not only did Mitt Romney ask for a federal bailout—he received one. And unlike loan guarantees, Romney sought—and received—the equivalent of cold hard cash. Romney apologists will say that the FDIC is funded by financial transaction fees, but taxpayers provided the backstop, and even though Bain & Co. went on to make millions more in profits, the fund was never replenished.

That’s not the only bailout in Romney’s past, however. When a steel mill backed by Bain collapsed, not only was the entire workforce out of a job, but the federal government was on the hook to the tune of $44 million to bail out the mill’s pension plan. Bain, however, made nearly $10 million on the deal, profiting handsomely from failure.

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
2:33 pm

td,

Unfortunately, your assertion seems to be that maximizing profits at any cost, within the existing law (now new laws please), is always rational. Unfortunately, that’s a common attitude. It’s also one that I don’t agree with.

If I can get higher returns from a company that operates either unlawfully OR unethically, then I’m still likely to avoid investing in that company (not always easy with mutual funds), regardless of the fact that, by doing so, I’m not maximizing my personal return on my investments.

In addition, I’m likely to write a letter to my elected representatives asking them to pass a law since, I believe, such operators are struggling with their personal ethics (no different then asking for stop signs on your street where people drive too fast among children on big wheels and tricycles).

There isn’t a conservative voter or Republican voter I’ve met that hasn’t sought limits on the activities of businesses at one time or another (zoning dispute fall under this category), even when doing so might prevent the business from otherwise “maximizing profits”.

All laws are derived from the ethics of our society, and laws restricting businesses such that they operate fairly and in accordance with society’s collective will are, in fact, consistent with free markets.

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
2:34 pm

“Spike Lee to host an Obama fundraiser”…..IMAGINE THAT!! SHOCKER!!! HAHA

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
2:35 pm

I stand corrected…

Berkshire Hathaway (a company that most admire)…

1961_Xer

January 13th, 2012
2:36 pm

td wrote “By Obama’s own words admits that he is a European democratic socialist.”

And, perusing the headlines of Europe today, that is better….. HOW? The European democratice socialist systems are failing. Germany aside, it is a fairly European socialists have failed. If you take the extract US rebuilding of Germany after WWII, the U.S. protection of the entire continent after WWII (which, BTW, is the only reason their socialist systems have lasted this long, and is a contributer to our own debt), and the fact that Germany’s economic health came at the expense of their European trading partners, then Germany fails as well. There is very little to admire there

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
2:36 pm

Bart……nice backstep.

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
2:38 pm

1961…..I agree.

1961_Xer

January 13th, 2012
2:46 pm

Capitalism is not perfect. For example, that is why we have laws against monopolies. Capitalism in its purest form would allow the select few to control the means of production. So modern “capitalists” prefer to enact laws to balance the system, rather than take directly from some and give directly to others.

Socialism takes from some (who may very well deserve the fruits of their labor) and gives to others (who may very well have never worked an honest day in their lives). That kind of soul numbing discourages anyone from producing at their maximum, and encourages competitive “need”. Pretty soon, everyone is simply doing the bare minimum that they need to to get by, as there is no incentive to do anything more.

JF McNamara

January 13th, 2012
2:49 pm

I wrote:

“It is what it is. He is essentially Gordon Gekko, and he is unapologetic about it. He flip flops on everything, but he hasn’t flip flopped on this. That’s not illegal, but is he the person you want running the United States?”

To be clear, I didn’t have a problem with what he did or him being unapologetic about it. Pumping and dumping stocks, LBOs and salvage sales are part of life.

I’m just not sure I want a President who would do those things though. That’s my point. Its a cold person who would buy a company with the express purpose of firing everyone with no regard to their future. Its a cold person who will pump a stock up, dump it, and leave others holding the bag.

A CEO of a company in most businesses takes care of his employees and looks out for the well being of the company in the future. That’s Presidential. A “Creative Destroyer” has a completely different psychology.

Jack McFarland

January 13th, 2012
3:02 pm

“Why do you think the free thinking American who demands less government in their lives and work…”

Dusty, those people don’t exist. They want government intrusion or else the Terry Shiavo situation wouldn’t have happened, we wouldn’t have to vote whether to buy alcohol on Sundays, debate about gay marriage, or debate about abortion.

Republicans want to control our personal lives, and Democrats want to control our finances.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
3:10 pm

So, Romney was a company organizer & Obama was a community organizer. Romney did it for profit (like ALL businesses). Never did figure out why Obama did it.
How did we ever end up with a community organizer in the White House? For that matter, how did a community organizer ever make it to the Ill. legislature?
In all my born days, I’ve never even met a community organizer. Never heard of anyone wanting to grow up to be one.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
3:13 pm

td @2:15 pm: “Obama’s own written words:

“I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists and punk-rock performance poets.” – Barack Obama (Dreams of My Father)

“Political discussions, the kind at Occidental had once seemed so intense and purposeful, came to take on the flavor of the socialist conferences I sometimes attended at Cooper Union” – Barack Obama (Dreams of My Father)”

Not a single piece of evidence that Obama is a Socialist.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
3:14 pm

Dusty @2:10 pm

You can call “socialistic” whatever you want, it is a free country. But that does not make socialistic what is not.

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
3:16 pm

awwwwww… Why did I do it? Why? Why? I just looked at Luckovich’s cartoon for today. He is comparing ROMNEY to Madoff!! MADOFF!

Will AJC ever lose its preference for leftwing cartoonists and others? Silly question.

Oh well ,I will just wander over and take a peek at the Smoltz mansion and its golf course, etc. for sale. He is really really RICH !!! ( I left off “evil” because Smotzie got rich throwing a ball and not capitalism!)

Anyway, you can pick up this little beauty for only 7.2 million. Better hurry. Another rich Democrat will buy it right away.

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
3:25 pm

Mark V,

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so it is in politics. I see socialism and you see good governance.

Have you been to your opthamologist lately?

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
3:27 pm

Bart Abel, maybe you missed it in school or something, but life doesn’t come with guarantees.

A .780 batting average in ANYTHING is something to be proud of.

Old Timer

January 13th, 2012
3:31 pm

I used to have a boss—a rabid Republican—who would tell anybody who would listen that he was doing people a favor by firing them. His rationale was that people not living up to his expectations were obviously unhappy in their jobs and needed a little nudge to go out and find a job that would make them happier.

Sounds like a lot of the arguments I’m seeing about Romney’s tenure at Bain—he was just trying to save the company, it’s better that a few get fired than that the company go under, that’s the way capitalism works, etc.

Odis

January 13th, 2012
3:37 pm

@ 1961_Xer , you point out that European style socialist governments are failing, but isn’t the US style of capitalism also failing us?

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
3:39 pm

It’s amazing how libs and Perry / Gingrich supporters are so scared of Mitt Romney. He has the one quality that no other candidate in this race, the current Disaster-in-Chief included, has.

The ability to work with the opposition party.

He lived it in Massachusetts, a state where the legislature was 85% Democrats (and flaming liberal Democrats, to boot), and got things done.

He’d put this current President to shame in the first year.

UGA 1999

January 13th, 2012
3:39 pm

Odis…no, the US style of capitalism has created the strongest government and economy the world has ever known. Just because we are in a slump doesnt mean the entire thing is bad.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
3:40 pm

“but isn’t the US style of capitalism also failing us?”

In what way, Odis?

clyde

January 13th, 2012
3:45 pm

A businessman is simply a person with a license to steal.

Substitute the word woman or person after business if the word businessman offends you.

I voted “who knows”?

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
3:46 pm

1961_Xer @2:36 pm: “The European democratice socialist systems are failing. “

Again, ignorance at display. The European countries do not have “democratice [sic]socialist systems.”

Bart Abel

January 13th, 2012
3:51 pm

Bart Abel, maybe you missed it in school or something, but life doesn’t come with guarantees. A .780 batting average in ANYTHING is something to be proud of.

Anything?

A .780 “batting average” in school is a C on your report card. You can feel proud about such grades if you want, but they’re evidence that you’re the one who missed something in school.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
3:54 pm

Dusty @3:25 pm:

Dusty, your attempt to sound witty is backfiring. The first part, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so it is in politics,” does not even make any sense. As for the second part, “I see socialism and you see good governance,” words like “socialism” have their specific meaning. If you use them without regard to what they mean, no rational discussion is possible.

gm

January 13th, 2012
3:56 pm

Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate!

Before you talk stupid, go look at Obama record in 3 years compared with this flip flop:
Mit opposed raising the minimum wage while gov of Mass, the man is worth 250 million, do you think he cares about middle class white America, what a bunch of naive idiots.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
4:00 pm

Uh, gm?

Raising the minimum wage KILLS jobs. And always low-income jobs of the very people YOU claim to support and wish to look out for.

Try Econ 101 next time.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
4:03 pm

Bart Abel, a .780 batting average on a test you’re supposed to know the answers to is still a passing grade, and almost a B.

Do that in life, running a business when you DON’T KNOW ALL the answers, is a winning record in anyone’s book but yours.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 13th, 2012
4:04 pm

What would kookman know about ethics?

~~~~~

Why would this question even need to be asked by a supposedly Conservative columnist?

Oh yeah, cause of all the dimwit socialists that infest this blog.

I forgot.

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
4:05 pm

MarkV @3:46

Again, arrogance on display. If you have to correct us from your high perch in thin air, please list your defense of said arrogance. Thank you.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 13th, 2012
4:09 pm

Political ideology in the U.S. held steady in 2011, with 40% of Americans continuing to describe their views as conservative, 35% as moderate, and 21% as liberal.-Gallup

It seems like there are more weirdos out there but I guess it’s only 21%.

huh

td

January 13th, 2012
4:19 pm

gm

January 13th, 2012
3:56 pm
Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate!

Before you talk stupid, go look at Obama record in 3 years compared with this flip flop:
Mit opposed raising the minimum wage while gov of Mass, the man is worth 250 million, do you think he cares about middle class white America, what a bunch of naive idiots

Who makes minimum wage? What skill set does it take to only make minimum wage?

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
4:20 pm

The problem, IR/YW, is that too many liberals don’t think they are, and call themselves moderates.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
4:22 pm

Dusty @4:05 pm: “MarkV @3:46. Again, arrogance on display. If you have to correct us from your high perch in thin air, please list your defense of said arrogance. Thank you.”

I humbly admit my shortcomings, in this case my inability to understand your post. Would you please explain what arrogance you have in mind? Is it arrogant for me to point out when a post addressed to me does not make sense? Thank you kindly.

Michael H. Smith

January 13th, 2012
4:23 pm

obumer now a small government conservative? Do wonders ever cease: rethink, reform, consolidate departments/agencies blah blah blah.

To late obozo, America knows you are a big government socialist to your core Marxist re-distributive beliefs. No need to talk like a limited government capitalist now when you see the election getting closer and you are too far extreme left of center to win.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
4:25 pm

You’re not arrogant, MarkV.

Just in denial regarding democratic European Socialism . . .

Michael H. Smith

January 13th, 2012
4:26 pm

News flash: Perry, Gingrich and company lose fight to get on Virginia ballot.

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
4:31 pm

I Report,

Have pity on those 21 percenters who are true liberals. They can only vote for Obama while holding their noses over his term in office.. No choice for the party loyalists.

On the other hand, conservatives are artfully choosing the pick of the lot from a fine group of candidates. How pleasing it is to go to the polls with a chosen man of the people on the ticket.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
4:34 pm

Tiberius @4:25 pm

It is not a question of denial. It is a question of meaning and definition. If you are able to learn, perhaps you will find that “Democratic Socialism”(which does exist as a theory) is a wrong term for the European systems. But I won’t be holding my breath.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
4:40 pm

Dusty @4:31 pm

You have a fine talent for satire. That second paragraph is exquisite. Congratulations.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
4:40 pm

Milton Friedman was an American economist, statistician, academic, author & recipient of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences. He believed in a free market economic system with little intervention by govt. He was recognized as the 2nd most popular economist of the 20th century (behind Keynes) & the “most influential economist of the 2nd half of the 20th century…possibly all of it.”

He was a reformed Keynesian, Keynesian economics being the theory that govt. can play a significant role during recessions by increasing demand by stimulating the economy with money (even borrowed money). Keynesian economics is the plan that the US has been following since ‘08, with one stimulus plan after the other, with one bailout after the other, with one home foreclosure plan after the other, with one private company takeover after the other, etc. Keynesian economists claim that the reason unemployment is still high is that the fed. govt. has just not spent enough money, that the $1 T stimulus bill in 2/09 was just not big enough.

Here are multiple videos of Friedman & his views on capitalism, socialism, greed, spreading the wealth, soaking the rich, fairness, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjH4QBSwWlg

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
4:42 pm

MarkV

When you accuse others of ignorance more than once, you need to explain why you feel that way.

The arrogance is your attempt to downgrade many who post here. Look it up in the dictionary before you tell me you don’t understand arrogance.

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
4:50 pm

Thank you, Mark V, but my 4:31 was not satire. Noooo! It was a joyful report of a conservative voter.

Wish you could “feel ” the joy, but I understand your inabilities. Poor liberals just don’t have any choice. So sorry…

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
4:54 pm

Denial, MarkV.. Plain and simple denial on your part.

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
4:59 pm

Tiberius,

Tell MarkV that “de nial” is a river in Egypt. That will get him all confused It is so much fun…

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
5:02 pm

Dusty,

MarkV is so caught up in absolutist definitions that he fails to see the reality in things.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
5:05 pm

Dusty @4:42 pm: “MarkV -When you accuse others of ignorance more than once, you need to explain why you feel that way. “

Sorry if you feel offended. Actually, I have explained it on this blog, not once but several times. I admit that somebody, perhaps you, might have missed that. You should understand that to keep repeating the explanation becomes tiresome. But I would be glad to copy the explanation again if you wish.

And I firmly reject you accusation of arrogance. Let me be a little serious here. There are some people posting here that I ignore completely, because I do not consider them worth answering. There are some I respond to only when they write something too aggravating, but often I ignore them as well. It is not arrogance, just that it is a waste of time and effort. You are not one of the above. I think you really are able do better than writing things without giving some thought to whether they are making sense of whether you can support them with reason. As I said, you can say whatever you want, but do not expect not to be challenged.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
5:13 pm

Dusty @4:59 pm; “Tiberius, Tell MarkV that “de nial” is a river in Egypt. That will get him all confused It is so much fun…”

Dusty, Dusty, I warned you about trying to sound witty. I think my grandfather was punished in school for that “de nial” joke.

Jefferson

January 13th, 2012
5:21 pm

Since it’s all over but the crying, will Romney pick Jeffs for the running mate or will Sarah make a cameo?

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
5:23 pm

MarkV @5:05

I hope I am not wasting your valuable time but that is the longest explanation of arrogance I have read in a long time. It almost sounds like it was from Samuel Johnson’s dictionary only he was very intelligent but not arrogant. He did like a little laugh now and then, a quality you are totally missing.

Oh do challenge my posts at any time. If I am available from my heavy schedule of deep subject material, I shall be glad to explain any of the things that simple minds cannot understand.

Right now I must adjourn for a fowl forum on whether his term in the oven is complete. To be done or not to be. That is the question. (If you don’t understand, ask Willie Shakespeare.) .

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
5:27 pm

Mark V @ 5:13 About “de nial”……

YOU GOT IT!! YOU GOT IT!! Your grandfather probably explained it to you. Very good!! You are making progress.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
5:45 pm

Dusty,

If you come back from your fowl forum, I have this message for you. I tried to reason friendly with you, and that fell on deaf ears. Have it your way.

Barney Frank

January 13th, 2012
6:24 pm

These unemployment rates are low compared to other socialist countries like the U.S. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-13/fed-s-evans-says-policy-risks-errors-of-japan-great-depression.html

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
6:31 pm

For you, Bart Abel:

“It constantly amazes me that defenders of the free market are expected to offer certainty and perfection while government has only to make promises and express good intentions. Many times, for instance, I’ve heard people say, ‘A free market in education is a bad idea because some child somewhere might fall through the cracks,’ even though in today’s government schools, millions of children are falling through the cracks every day.” – Lawrence Reed

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
6:50 pm

Barney Frank @6:24 pm

Thee are currently four socialist countries in the world.
Available unemployment figures:

Cuba: 1.6% (2010 estimate)
Laos: 2.5% (2009 estimate)
Vietnam : 4.4% (2010 estimate)
China: 6.10% (September 2009 est)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 13th, 2012
6:51 pm

Hats off to Newt, Rick, et al for making Romney a sympathetic figure.

Among freedom-loving, pro-business Americans, anyway. Pardon the triple redundancy.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 13th, 2012
6:52 pm

MarkV: Available unemployment figures
————————-

Yeah, and Saddam won 99% of the vote in his last election.

You are so easily led, eh?

Dusty

January 13th, 2012
7:05 pm

Well, my fowl forum was famously furnished with dressing and gravy. Ummm delicious.

Ah MarkV has tried to be friendly! He said so. He does need a few more lessons. But who am I to tell this gentlemen how to be sweet and kind. Such a task! A prickly cactus comes to mind.

But let us return to politics. I think Romney will do just fine even if he does have millions on top of millions I will not hold that against him. I would suggest he take his vacations in Hawaii at his own expense. Now that would be a nice conservative gesture. Our rich conservatives know how to behave.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
7:09 pm

Isn’t it funny how the progressives try to make us think that socialist parties & socialist policies don’t make for a socialist country? The US isn’t a socialist country–yet–but we have a group that have been trying for decades to socialize/nationalize every aspect of our economy, totally denying it every step of the way, as if all of us were just plain stupid.

Most of us know that Europe is in turmoil from socialism. That is exactly where the US is headed if we don’t stop the spending & rein in the entitlements.

The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!

January 13th, 2012
7:11 pm

The private equity biz requires one to be as slick as the hair on Mitt’s head, and sleazier than a big bucket of santorum.

Liars, flip-floppers, and wheeler-dealers – your basic garden variety sociopath – are the folks that make out in that business. And Mitt has made out to the tune of $250M or so – we’ll see if and when he ever releases his financials, although you can bet most of the Romney $$$ is untraceable.

Honor? Character? Keeping one’s word? Not in that business. Not Mitt Romney either.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
7:29 pm

What did Romney do that Obama Motors didn’t do? Didn’t Obama close down hundreds of GM & Chrysler dealerships because they weren’t profitable or posed too much competition? Didn’t Obama put thousands of people out of work? The difference is that Obama did it with taxpayer money to save union jobs.

Lightening Strikes Twice

January 13th, 2012
7:29 pm

@ – Tiberius

Underground History of American Education

John Taylor Gatto

Chapter Two

An Angry Look At Modern Schooling

The secret of American schooling is that it doesn’t teach the way children learn and it isn’t supposed to. It took seven years of reading and reflection to finally figure out that mass schooling of the young by force was a creation of the four great coal powers of the nineteenth century. Nearly one hundred years later, on April 11, 1933, Max Mason, president of the Rockefeller Foundation, announced to insiders that a comprehensive national program was underway to allow, in Mason’s words, “the control of human behavior.”

http://johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

Barney Frank

January 13th, 2012
7:29 pm

Thee are currently four socialist countries in the world.
Available unemployment figures:

Cuba: 1.6% (2010 estimate)
Laos: 2.5% (2009 estimate)
Vietnam : 4.4% (2010 estimate)
China: 6.10% (September 2009 est)

Didn’t see European stats in here..

Barney Frank

January 13th, 2012
7:34 pm

Maybe these are more familiar unemployment rates. No wonder with their entitlements and unemployment rates like these they need bailout money from other countries.
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics
A glimpse of the future of the US?

independent thinker

January 13th, 2012
7:35 pm

Poor Newt is so desperate he has now joined the occupier movement to get votes. I’d like to see him and Callista camped in a tent.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
7:41 pm

Yeah, MarkV, GREAT comparison. Of course, if we’d like their standard of living, i.e. POVERTY, we could be Socialists, too! Per capita income in U.S. dollars follows your unemployment numbers.

Cuba: 1.6% (2010 estimate) $9,500 (2008)
Laos: 2.5% (2009 estimate) $2,100 (2008)
Vietnam : 4.4% (2010 estimate) $2,800 (2008)
China: 6.10% (September 2009 est) $6,000 (2008)

And of course, ours is at $47,000, more than doubling the four countries you seem to admire so much COMBINED. Feel free to join them, but don’t try to destroy what we have, OK?

http://siakhenn.tripod.com/capita.html

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 13th, 2012
7:45 pm

If you have a problem with turnaround specialists like Bain, what you are FOR is laying off everyone, instead of just the most productive employees.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 13th, 2012
7:46 pm

’scuse me…”least productive”

Linda

January 13th, 2012
7:46 pm

It seems to me that there are more of you blogging here who have seen the light, that is, the light that the US is heading into the wrong direction & that Obama is leading the US down the wrong path. How many of you voted for Obama & will not do so again, & why not?

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 13th, 2012
7:50 pm

Linda
7:29 pm
——–

Ouch.

Well played. B*tchslap is a dessert best served cold.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
7:53 pm

Barney Frank @7:29 pm: “Didn’t see European stats in here.”

Why would you? There are no socialist countries in Europe. They exist only in the ignorant fantasies of people like you.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 13th, 2012
7:54 pm

How many didn’t vote for Obozo last time, and regret it? That’s a number very close to zero.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
8:01 pm

Tiberius @ 7:41 pm

I will break my usual rule of not responding to people like you, people who know only how to present falsehoods and stupidities. With your miniscule brainpower you failed to notice that the standard of living was not the issue, that nobody expressed any admire for those countries. So keep your idiocies for yourself or show them to everybody, I could not care less.

td

January 13th, 2012
8:04 pm

Linda,

From an unscientific poll of my Face book friends, I have 20 friends that voted for Obama in 08. 4 of those friends now say they made a huge mistake and will vote for whomever the Republican nominee is. I have one other friend that voted for Obama and said they will either vote for a third party candidate or will not vote at all. None of my friends that voted for other candidates in 08 have said they will vote for Obama in 08.

Rafe Hollister

January 13th, 2012
8:13 pm

Markv
Based on the stats you provided, are you willing to trade your freedom for a job?

Linda

January 13th, 2012
8:13 pm

MarkV@7:53, My 7:09 was meant for you & your other progressives. THIS Barney, not yours from Mass., is intuitive & has a bunch of common sense. Ignorant fantasies? Dream on!

Disgusted

January 13th, 2012
8:16 pm

None of my friends that voted for other candidates in 08 have said they will vote for Obama in 08.

You need to widen your circle of friends, td. You can’t hang around racist rednecks all your life.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
8:23 pm

MarkV, when using data to describe the positives of a particular country, one usually looks at the TOTALITY of the countries in question, rather than focusing on just one single positive note. Therefore, one has to take the good with the bad when trying to hold up certain countries for emulation, which you did not. It doesn’t really matter how successful a country is in curbing unemployment if a huge majority of their citizens don’t have running water or electricity, and live in relative squalor compared to almost everybody else.

Now, to your rather chippy remarks to me. I realize that it is difficult for certain people to be called out for being just plain wrong in public, which is why you post under another name. Personally, I wouldn’t like to be as publicly wrong as you are on the issues and have my name out there, either. And before you go there, I use a pseudonym due to being cyber-stalked on another site, so that stops your first inclination to attack me again as well.

Now, MarkV, I suggest one thing for you to try (along with a modicum of civility): reality. It will serve you well in discussions on this blog.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
8:35 pm

MarkV@8:01, For a seemingly intelligent guy, it’s too bad you can’t carry on an intellectual discussion. You couldn’t be as smart as you appear to be without being an avid reader, but you must have missed that book, “Winning Friends & Influencing People.” You can’t indoctrinate folks when you call them liars, stupid, idiots, with miniscule brainpower, etc. Maybe you “failed to notice” your arrogance & how Tiberius or any other conservative could “not care less” about how you could “not care less.”

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
8:47 pm

Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @8:23 pm: “MarkV, when using data to describe the positives of a particular country, one usually looks at the TOTALITY of the countries in question, rather than focusing on just one single positive note.”

One more time, because you apparently are unable to understand even simple things, there was nothing in those posts about positives of a particular country. It was a question of unemployment, pure and simple. I am fed up with people like you who distort what is being discussed just to make stupid attacks. As for civility, I am also fed up with liars like you who accuse of “posting under another name.”

Linda

January 13th, 2012
8:48 pm

td@8:04, You need to motivate your friends to vet candidates they plan to vote for in 11/12. It’s amazing how many people base their opinions on yard signs, pre-internet, natl., state & local. I knew Obama was who he was before 11/08, but I had no idea he would be so “transforming,” as he promised. Make sure your friends know that this will be the most important election in the history of our country. Keep up your good work.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
8:50 pm

Linda @8:35 pm

Your post is duly noted and dismissed as nonsense. As I have just written to Tiberius, I am fed up with distortions and lies. If you call what he is doing “intelligent discussion,” that is your privilege, but do not expect me to share your view.

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
8:53 pm

@UGA 1999 January 13th, 2012 12:37 pm – Bart….maybe the ones that “lost their livelihoods” should have worked harder and been a more valuable asset to the company.
________________________________________________

Drain ‘em dry Mitt.

the red herring

January 13th, 2012
8:55 pm

america will need a savior after obama’s four years. when trying to save companies and jobs it is impossible to not lose some jobs. i’m no romney fan but if anything his work in trying to downsize companies in order to save them puts him in good standing for trying to downsize the federal government in order to save the country. it has to be done—the sooner the better— research how much obama has increased federal government employment and also how much he has increased the deficit since taking office. he simply can’t blame bush for everything he has done—the buck stops at his own door. time for “change” for sure— “hoping” for it will not work—the voters will turn out in droves to get rid of this guy… the sooner the better. ABO –anybody but obama will do— i’m starting to agree with the young people — was for herman cain early on but ron paul seems to make a lot of sense.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
9:00 pm

Digusted@8:16, did td fail to mention that many of her friends were black? If you have a problem with rednecks, maybe you are yourself prejudicial. Rednecks get their red necks from working hard outside in the sun. What an arrogant statement!

td

January 13th, 2012
9:01 pm

Linda

January 13th, 2012
8:48 pm

Only if you knew how hard I have been trying Linda. Most of the people my age did not discover FB until after the 08 election.The communication and education campaign has begun in full force. I think we did a pretty good job in 10 within the state of Georgia but now we shall see if the social networks can work as well for the conservatives as it did for the libs in 08.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
9:02 pm

MarkV, your inability to understand simple concepts is astounding.

If you tout a low unemployment percentage for a particular country, you open yourself up to ALL the good and bad that country has. Whether you like it or not, low unemployment figures mean nothing to any RATIONAL discussion if that’s ALL you’re going to look at. It would be the equivalent of saying we should elect Mitt Romney because he has nice hair, and simply ignore all the other things about him.

Of course, as a typical lib, seeing only one point to an argument is status quo for your kind. You’re incapable of making a logical, fact-based argument so you resort to vindictive posts and name calling.

I get it.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
9:02 pm

Tiberius@8:23, Excuse me for trying to defend you. Evidently, you can take care of yourself. More power to you.

td

January 13th, 2012
9:08 pm

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
8:47 pm

Why are you such an angry person? I have seen nothing Linda or Tiberius has written that does not contain a very large amount of accurate information. Your post have truth but for the most part the truth is spun to foster your particular view of the world. I pretty much disagree with your view but I am not on hear calling you names.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
9:10 pm

Mark@8:47, I’ve already told you several times. You can’t tell or refer to folks that they are “unable to understand,” “even simple things,” “people like you who distort,” & “liars” & expect them to cuddle up to you in your quest for promoting the progressive agenda. I realize that progressives think everyone else is stupid, but you are foolish to tell them so.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
9:13 pm

MarkV@8:50, It’s nonsense for me to call you smart & an avid reader? I see. My bad!

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
9:30 pm

@the red herring January 13th, 2012 8:55 pm – america will need a savior after obama’s four years. when trying to save companies and jobs it is impossible to not lose some jobs. i’m no romney fan but if anything his work in trying to downsize companies in order to save them puts him in good standing for trying to downsize the federal government in order to save the country. it has to be done—the sooner the better—
************************************************

Parlez-vous francais?

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
9:35 pm

@td January 13th, 2012 8:04 pm –

From an unscientific poll of my Face book friends, I have 20 friends that voted for Obama in 08. 4 of those friends now say they made a huge mistake and will vote for whomever the Republican nominee is. I have one other friend that voted for Obama and said they will either vote for a third party candidate or will not vote at all. None of my friends that voted for other candidates in 08 have said they will vote for Obama in 08.
______________________________________

heeheehee

har, har, har

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Who cares?

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
9:36 pm

Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @9:02 pm: “MarkV, your inability to understand simple concepts is astounding. If you tout a low unemployment percentage for a particular country.”

You get nothing. It is your inability to understand simple concepts. Again, you resort to falsehoods. Nobody “touted” any low unemployment percentages. All I did was correcting a post, which claimed high unemployment for “socialist countries.” To distort this into “admiration” of those countries I cited was a false, dishonest accusation. The accusation that I post under a different name was another falsehood. If that is what you call “logical, fact-based argument,” you have no idea what that means.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
9:40 pm

td @9:08 pm

Yes, sometimes I am angry, when people like Tiberius distort what I have written (see my post to him), and make false accusations.

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
9:41 pm

@Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward) January 13th, 2012 7:54 pm – How many didn’t vote for Obozo last time, and regret it? That’s a number very close to zero.

*************************************

huh, huh, huh

You got jokes?

To bad you don’t get paid for being funny.

MarkV

January 13th, 2012
9:42 pm

Linda @9:10 pm

Same answer as to td.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
9:44 pm

Vampire@9:30, What eloquent contributions by a liberal to our discussion!

td

January 13th, 2012
9:47 pm

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
9:35 pm

Obviously not you.

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
9:54 pm

@Linda January 13th, 2012 7:46 pm How many of you voted for Obama & will not do so again, & why not?
********************************************

Get a life Linda.

Who cares.

You are not getting paid to conduct a poll.

Take up knitting if you need a hobby.

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
9:56 pm

@Linda January 13th, 2012 9:44 pm – Vampire@9:30, What eloquent contributions by a liberal to our discussion!
_________________________

I REPEAT

Get a life Linda.

Who cares.

You are not getting paid to conduct a poll.

Take up knitting if you need a hobby.

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
9:59 pm

@td January 13th, 2012 9:47 pm – Obviously not you.

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Obviously YOU ARE RIGHT sir.

td

January 13th, 2012
10:05 pm

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
9:59 pm

If you do not want to come on here and contribute in a meaningful way then why come on here and waste your time and effort to type drivel? Maybe, you should have a more productive hobby?

Linda

January 13th, 2012
10:05 pm

Vampire@9:41, 9:54 & 9:56, You need to lay off your booze or drugs. What is wrong with you? Do you think conservatives on this blog will be impressed by a sot or a drug user? Best of luck to you.

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
10:17 pm

@td January 13th, 2012 10:05 pm – If you do not want to come on here and contribute in a meaningful way then why come on here and waste your time and effort to type drivel? Maybe, you should have a more productive hobby?

@Linda January 13th, 2012 10:05 pm – Vampire@9:41, 9:54 & 9:56, You need to lay off your booze or drugs. What is wrong with you? Do you think conservatives on this blog will be impressed by a sot or a drug user? Best of luck to you.

*****************************************************************************

TD, This is contributing in a meaningful way?

LINDA, Looks like your buddy Lil’ Barry needs to “lay off booze or drugs.”

Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
January 13th, 2012
7:50 pm
Linda
7:29 pm
——–
Ouch.
Well played. B*tchslap is a dessert best served cold.

Pot meet kettle.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
10:20 pm

Vampire@9:59, Same as above. Get a good night’s sleep. There’s pro-football games on tomorrow.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 13th, 2012
10:21 pm

VVC can’t meaningfully address td and Linda, so he has to bring me into it?

You lose.

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
10:26 pm

@Linda January 13th, 2012 10:20 pm – Vampire@9:59, Same as above. Get a good night’s sleep. There’s pro-football games on tomorrow.
****************************************************************

I sleep good everynight because my conscience is clean.

I have not lied on anyone,

I do not have hate in my heart.

I can’t say the same about you, TD and Lil’ Barry Bailout.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Linda

January 13th, 2012
10:26 pm

Vampire@9:59 & 10:17, Get off this blog NOW or I’ll hit “Report This Comment” to Kyle. He knows who you are & where you are blogging from. You are not in any shape to continue.

Linda

January 13th, 2012
10:29 pm

Vampire@10:26, This is my last warning. It’s for your own good.

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
10:35 pm

@Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward) January 13th, 2012 10:21 pm – VVC can’t meaningfully address td and Linda, so he has to bring me into it? You lose.
******************************************************

You brought yourself into it when you came on this blog.

Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
January 13th, 2012
7:50 pm
Linda
7:29 pm
——–
Ouch.
Well played. B*tchslap is a dessert best served cold.

You lose.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 13th, 2012
10:40 pm

VVC’s employer failed and had to be rescued by Bain Capital. They decided he was one of the employees that wasn’t adding any value.

Fortunately, the more valuable workers jobs were saved.

Thank you, Bain Capital.

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
10:42 pm

@Linda January 13th, 2012 10:26 pm – Vampire@9:59 & 10:17, Get off this blog NOW or I’ll hit “Report This Comment” to Kyle. He knows who you are & where you are blogging from. You are not in any shape to continue.
*************************************

If you report me you need to report Lil’ Barry as well. I have more.

Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
December 22nd, 2011
10:00 pm
We trust that when you come back tomorrow, you’ll have another clever screen name…”If It Ain’t Broke Don’t Fix It”…”I’m With Stupid”…”Ass Gas Or Grass, Nobody Rides For Free”…
Let’s hope the convenience store doesn’t run out of koozies.

Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
January 13th, 2012
7:50 pm
Linda
7:29 pm
——–
Ouch.
Well played. B*tchslap is a dessert best served cold.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 13th, 2012
10:45 pm

Hmm…could VVC be Kamchak’s latest sockpuppet? He had a little dossier on me over at Bookman’s. What a creeper.

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
10:51 pm

@Linda January 13th, 2012 10:29 pm – Vampire@10:26, This is my last warning. It’s for your own good.

***********************************************************

My lawyer says this is a threat to my freedom of speech and that you do not have the right to tell anyone to get off this blog. Or to threaten to have anyone taken off this blog.

Kyle knows who you are too. And my lawyer will know as well.

td

January 13th, 2012
11:18 pm

Vampire Vulture Capitalist

January 13th, 2012
10:51 pm

Sorry, your lawyer is wrong. This is a private blog owned by a private company and as such the AJC has the right to ban anyone from posting on their website for any reason. Freedom of speech does not trump the rights of a private entity.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 13th, 2012
11:23 pm

V V C, your lawyer is an idiot.

getalife

January 13th, 2012
11:38 pm

What?

No freedom of speech on this blog because Linda said to get off the blog?

Too funny.

td

January 13th, 2012
11:59 pm

getalife

January 13th, 2012
11:38 pm
What?

No freedom of speech on this blog because Linda said to get off the blog?

Too funny.

Please, how many times have I been told by people to get off of Jim’s or Jay’s blog each week?

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
12:12 am

As usual, getaclue, you aren’t paying attention.

johnc

January 14th, 2012
1:21 am

An earlier comment compared Romney to Warren Buffet and couldn’t have been more wrong. I have three customers that are companies that have been acquired by Berkshire Hathaway, and each has been allowed to continue to operate essentially as an independent company for many years. Only in the last year have I seen one of them consolidate services with another BH company, and it was done with a minimum number of employees being laid off. I work in the IT industry and it’s not uncommon for half or more of the employees to be laid off as soon as an acquisition is completed.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 14th, 2012
4:25 am

BH isn’t a turnaround specialist, like Bain. BH buys companies it believes are undervalued. Bain buys companies that are about to go under and “saves or creates” jobs.

So you’re right, Romney/Bain and Buffett/BH have different investment approaches.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 14th, 2012
4:29 am

Someone should remind Rick Perry and the economic know-nothings and libtards he’s allied himself with on this Bain thing that vultures are interested in things that are already dead. In Bain’s case, it’s companies. The fact that many jobs are saved as a result of their investment and turnaround expertise is normally considered a good thing. What really bothers the anti-American left is that Bain manages to turn a profit on some of their investments.

marko

January 14th, 2012
8:08 am

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Romney borrow the money he used to leverage these troubled companies? Every time I’ve been treated to a stirring lecture, on the joys of free market capitalism, it’s always involved love songs about risk and rewards. I’m not clear where Little Mitts ever risked anything. He used other peoples money to gamble with other peoples jobs. It still looks like capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich. I see where our little hero was able to pocket millions, I’m a tad fuzzy about the part where he ever risked anything. If Mitts had been as bad at business as “W” was, He wasn’t ever going to face the true consequences of his actions any more than “W” did. “W” and Mitts were born on third base. they just like to strut around like they hit home runs.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 14th, 2012
8:12 am

marko: Investors had such confidence in Romney that they invested money with Bain to enable him to save other peoples jobs.
—————–

Fixed.

And you need to learn what “capitalism” is. Hint–it involves pooling investor money to start, expand, or otherwise fund a business.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 14th, 2012
8:23 am

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Romney borrow the money he used to leverage these troubled companies?
—————————

And where did Idiot Obozo get the money needed to bail out GM and Chrysler? Was that money given voluntarily by investors, or coerced from taxpayers?

Your liberal fascist klown Obozo has called free enterprise the “enemy”.

Michael H. Smith

January 14th, 2012
8:46 am

Please celebrate obumer’s down sizing of government or is that called “Vulcher Socialism”? he he he…

It is going to be fun beating-up on the leftwing comrades with their dear ruler obumer’s demagogue version of Bain Capital.

Is that like taking all sides of an issue? flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop

Or, is this the New and Improved Wall Street obumer trying to act like Gordon Gecko?

Obama challenges Republicans on goal they embrace

On government reorganization, Obama wants a guarantee from Congress that he could get a vote within 90 days on any idea to consolidate federal agencies, provided his plan saves money and cuts the government. His first order of business would be to merge six major trade and commerce agencies into one, eliminating the Commerce Department, among others.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2012/01/14/obama_promotes_insourcing_government_reorg/

You gotta love the timing of this thing. They’re going after Romney for the sort of things obumer says he is going to do. Of course, when Romney did it… well, it was bad, it was wrong, he profited from the misery of others.

Barney Frank

January 14th, 2012
8:47 am

MarkV
Why would you? There are no socialist countries in Europe. They exist only in the ignorant fantasies of people like you.

Tell that to my German significant other. Mayhaps MarkV, you are confusing Socialism and Communism. Maybe Socialism isn’t far enough for you? Maybe you’d prefer to live under a Communist regime. Perhaps a government like this: http://expertscolumn.com/content/list-good-things-muammar-gaddafi-done-people-libya Wait, those days are coming to and end as Obozo ruined it for the citizens there.

@@

January 14th, 2012
9:16 am

One thing’s for sure….Romney is a better venture capitalist than the Obama administration.

CBS News counted 12 clean energy companies that are having trouble after collectively being approved for more than $6.5 billion in federal assistance. Five have filed for bankruptcy: The junk bond-rated Beacon, Evergreen Solar, SpectraWatt, AES’ subsidiary Eastern Energy and Solyndra.

^^^ That’s what happens when you (Obama) are green between the ears.

schnirt

Michael H. Smith

January 14th, 2012
9:24 am

I hear they did a document dump. Which usually means they’re trying to cover-up something or don’t want the news cycle dominated by the details an unfavorable story.

Thynameishypocrisy

January 14th, 2012
9:25 am

“Warren Buffet buys strong companies, strips the cash out, and is lauded by the leftists.” Could you provide an example? Oh, wait, Rush said this. Never mind.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
9:36 am

“Correct me if I’m wrong,”

OK, marko, you’re wrong.

Do you have a mortgage, marko? How about a car loan? Ever borrow money for school loans?

The point is that EVERYBODY borrows money to get ahead at some time in their lives. The successful ones like Romney grow their and other people’s wealth with it, and return it many-fold to the investors.

Rafe Hollister

January 14th, 2012
10:15 am

@@
I like that “green between the ears”, great quote.

I think this Bain Capital thing is a winner for the GOP. If Mitt would get a good reply rehearsed. Something like, well Mr. Oblamer, you reorganized GM/Chrysler and put out of business many dealerships owned by people who had been in business for 50+ years. You had you excuses on why they were chosen, but it turns out most of them were chosen because they gave money to your political opponents. My decisions were based on an economic plan to turn around the companies and make a good profit for my shareholders.

so, my plan to was to devise a plan that would save the company, as many employes as needed, and turn a profit for the investors. Your plan was to enrich your union friends, push you green energy fantasies, and punish your political enemies.

td

January 14th, 2012
10:57 am

“Obama challenges Republicans on goal they embrace

On government reorganization, Obama wants a guarantee from Congress that he could get a vote within 90 days on any idea to consolidate federal agencies, provided his plan saves money and cuts the government. His first order of business would be to merge six major trade and commerce agencies into one, eliminating the Commerce Department, among others”

And if I was a Republican member of the US House of Representatives, I would go ahead and write a bill giving Obama exactly what he wants and defund the agencies he wants to cut. I would go on every news show and give speeches praising Obama’s effort and pledge to him 100% cooperation to help him make government more efficient and cut the size and scope of government.

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
11:01 am

Barney Frank @8:47 am

Join the club of those, who connsider the meaning of terms is unimportant. So according to you the Federal Republic of Germany is a socialist country. That will come as a surprise to people there, but would be great news to socialists, considering the economic success of that country. As for confusing Socialism and Communism, you can’t even start doing that, when you fail to understand what Socialism is.

td

January 14th, 2012
11:03 am

marko

January 14th, 2012
8:08 am
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Romney borrow the money he used to leverage these troubled companies?

Those are called investors. They are the likes of the CA teachers retirement system, TX teachers retirement system and millions of 401K funds. They believed in Romney and Bain enough to give him their hard earned money. In return they expect a return on their investment so that they are going to be able to retire sometime and so that they can leave a little something to their children one day.

The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!

January 14th, 2012
11:05 am

Unfortunately, investors aren’t really investing in companies anymore, they are investing in balance sheets.

Many companies – more when Mitt worked for Bain – carry pension liabilities on their balance sheets, telling their workers they will pay them benefits upon their retirement, ostensibly out of future revenue. The workers consider this part of their compensation, part of their pay, and part of the reason they work for the company. The companies put these plans together to keep a trained workforce and reduce turnover.

When the Bains of the world come along, the first thing they do is not try to save the company and the workers, but pretty up the balance sheet. Reneging on pension plans is most often where they start. Since a significant part of the pension plan is insured by the federal government, the taxpayers pay the burden of the broken agreement, the workers end up with a severely reduced benefit, and the boys at Bain end up with a prettier balance sheet – and “consulting” fees for their “management expertise” at gutting pension plans and other employee benefits, and, by taking monies owed to the employees off the balance sheet, making potential new investors happier, thereby increasing their capital gains – which they only have to pay a tax rate of 15% on. There is no real risk here to Bain – all they are risking is the pensions of the employees.

Another way to make money early in the process is by poor-mouthing the companies prospects, and threatening local and state governments to close plants and lay-off workers. Sit down with a business page editor and say that things are grim at XYZ, and that, even with concessions from the workers, we may need to close the plant. All of the sudden tax abatements and easements come out of the woodwork, training programs subsidized by federal, state, and local governments are developed – prettying up the balance sheet and/or creating positive publicity, and risking other peoples’ – the taxpayers’ – money. Your tax dollars “at work” – a quick pass through the company to Mitt’s pocket – no real wealth created, paper profits and changing the colors of ink on bogus balance sheets.

And the half-wits bleat that this is capitalism, when it is basically what Somali pirates do – except it’s white guys with ties – and slick hairdos – and there is a whole lot more money at stake and more lives put at risk.

redneckbluedog

January 14th, 2012
11:05 am

I”m giving Gingrich a second, third, fourth look……….The man IS predictable…and likeable….but he is a scuzzbag……Romney is turning into kind of a scuzzbag, too….the man hasn’t worked for 6 years…

td

January 14th, 2012
11:10 am

Rafe Hollister

January 14th, 2012
10:15 am

If I were Romney I would just show the bottom line of how much money they made for their investors and who those investors were and are. I would talk about all the current retirees and future retirees that have put there trust in his management and how they are now going to have some retirement security due to the efforts he has made. The senior and 50’s vote is a great deal more important then the youth vote.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
11:11 am

I love watching people try to justify Mitt Romney’s endless waffling on the GM/Chrysler rescue.

Rafe Hollister: “My decisions were based on an economic plan to turn around the companies and make a good profit for my shareholders.”

And you think that’s a GOOD thing?

The purpose of Mitt Romney’s Bain Capital dealings is, as the pro-Newt PAC ad says, to reap enormous profits for Romney himself and his partners. What is in the best interests of workers, industries, or the economy at large is completely irrelevant for such activities.

redneckbluedog

January 14th, 2012
11:12 am

Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
January 14th, 2012
8:23 am
Your liberal fascist klown Obozo has called free enterprise the “enemy”.
———————————
This man here HATES Barack Obama with a passion beyond politics….Perhaps he is racist….I would remind him that Barack Obama is half-white….or perhaps he is a true hater of Keynesian politics….he is highly political, and he is not always factual….just sounds like an avid conservative media afficianado….

redneckbluedog

January 14th, 2012
11:14 am

Were Romney to come clean on Bain and his tax returns, I personally could stand the Momonism for 4 years….Otherwise he’s just a Mormon John Kerry who hasn’t worked in 6 years

td

January 14th, 2012
11:15 am

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
11:01 am

I have read your post now for two days telling people they do not know what Socialism or Communism is. Well then since all these people seem so uneducated why do you not then please educate us on what the meaning is? Please give us all a detailed description of the two with documents sources so that we can all be on the same page in the future.

redneckbluedog

January 14th, 2012
11:17 am

If I were Romney I would just show the bottom line of how much money they made for their investors and who those investors were and are. I would talk about all the current retirees and future retirees that have put there trust in his management and how they are now going to have some retirement security due to the efforts he has made. The senior and 50’s vote is a great deal more important then the youth vote.
————————————
He is more likely to just embrace the Ryan budget….which would be a mistake

td

January 14th, 2012
11:28 am

The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!

January 14th, 2012
11:05 am

An how much of what you wrote is against the law? Why did these companies not fully fund those pension plans in the first place? Would you call this poor management? Bottom line is how much money did Bain’s expertise put into the hands of their investors? How much healthier is the CA and TX teachers pension fund? How much more money is now in 401K accounts?

BTW: According to the NYT 78% of the companies Bain has taken over are now in good financial shape so how many jobs did Bain save?

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
11:31 am

td, please don’t encourage MarkV.

He needs to go over to Bookman’s blog where his rather creepy reliance on out-dated definitions and his inability to accept reality will fit in perfectly.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
11:36 am

When is bad hair bigmouth Trump guy going to come out and demand that Romney release his income tax records?

The reason Romney is balking is of course because he has very good reason to be nervous in the age of Occupy Wall Street. What those records will no doubt show is :

a) that Romney, like Warren Buffett, when he even pays taxes at all, pays a measly capital gains rate and therefore pays a rate almost half what average Americans pay, and

b) he probably rats out on taxes altogether for large portions of his income which are probably parked in off-shore tax shelters of various types.

In other words, Romney is part of the 1% and doesn’t even begin to understand what that means in terms of how out of touch he is with the experiences of average Americans.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
11:48 am

Occupation, when you throw out phrases like “how out of touch he is with the experiences of average Americans” when discussing Romney (or other GOP-ers), you DO realize that the current Disaster-in-Chief’s life experiences and upbringing has no bearing on “the experiences of average Americans”, don’t you?

How many people get to go to Harvard, don’t hold a real job, get elected to a state senator position then have their U.S. Senate election handed to them by taking out their competition in smear tactics, and finally get elected to the highest office in the land due to a terrible economy?

There are few elected representatives that understand “the experiences of average Americans”. And to as for being out of touch, they’ve got a corner on that market on BOTH sides of the aisle.

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
11:51 am

td @11:15 am

I will give you a short definition. The essence of socialism is a collective control over the means of production, distribution and exchange. In the classical socialism it means the state ownership of those. With the respect to silly claims like that Germany is a socialist country, the companies like VW, BMW, ThyssenKrupp AG, just to name a few, would be very surprised to learn that they are state-owned.
Speaking of Germany, it has been said that while it is a capitalist country, it has adopted some ideals of socialism. That can be said of most developed countries in the world. For those who point to those and claim that those ideals make people Socialists and countries socialist, I have a simple question and answer. Are you against racism? If you are, then in your way of thinking you are a Socialist, because opposition to racism is one of the ideals of Socialism.
What people confuse most are the terms Socialism, Democratic Socialism, and Social Democracy. As ideologies, those are among the main variants in the world now. Democratic Socialism is a version of Socialism. Social Democracy is not, it is essentially regulated Capitalism, and it is the system in most European countries.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
11:58 am

You’re moving the goalposts, Tiberius.

“..you DO realize that the current Disaster-in-Chief’s life experiences and upbringing has no bearing on “the experiences of average Americans”, don’t you?”

If we’re talking about NOW, as president, then of course, it’s true that Obama’s experiences in no way resemble anything like that of average Americans. But if we look at where they came from, their life backgrounds and experiences, Obama’s experiences are VASTLY closer to that of average Americans than Romney (even though many Americans do not grow up in biracial households or households where one parent is a foreign citizen, though in immigrant melting pots like NY or Miami there are many who do).

He earned is way to Harvard. Why do you have a problem with that? I thought people with your political inclinations were in favor of meritocracy. I don’t know about you, but I think getting to Harvard without growing up in great privilege, but instead because you were bright, is a sign of greater meritocracy and thus a healthy society, as opposed to the direction we’re heading in now where increasingly only the very wealthy are going to the top tier schools.

And I don’t know what you mean about not holding a real job. To come back to Romney, I seriously doubt he’s ever worked a job in his life where he had to lift an object heavier than 50 lbs. or had to wash his hands or couldn’t stroll straight from work to a four star restaurant without changing clothes. One could make the argument therefore that it is he, Romney, who has never worked a ‘real job’.

But on this point: “There are few elected representatives that understand “the experiences of average Americans.”

I couldn’t agree with you more.

“And to as for being out of touch, they’ve got a corner on that market on BOTH sides of the aisle”

No argument here.

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
12:02 pm

Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @11:31 am

You are not creepy, but dishonest and ignorant. You showed that perfectly yesterday first by your attack on me, claiming my admiration and touting of socialist countries. And you showed how little you understand even what you thought you were proving. Because the low unemployment in socialist countries is not any positive aspect or something that might be admired or touted, as you suggested. Unlike the situation in the capitalist countries, where unemployment is an indicator of the health of the economy, in socialist countries it is nothing of the sort. In a purely socialist country (which those four I mentioned are not, but are closest), the economy could be completely collapsing without any unemployment. That is exactly because the state controls the means of production, and therefore controls the employment. Therefore, low unemployment is socialism is merely the result of the lack of economic freedom.
But things like that apparently go way above your silly head.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
12:10 pm

Occupation, I have no problem with people earning their way in life, but the current Disaster-in-Chief hasn’t really done that, has he?

In the big scheme of things, neither man has any clue about average Americans. To suggest anything different is to deny reality.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
12:14 pm

MarkV, I have given you a pass on questioning my honesty, mainly because I feel sorry for you. However, I’m having a hard time being Mr. Nice Guy when you constantly (and wrongly, as usual for you) keep bringing it up.

Now, I am willing to follow the rules that Kyle has set forth for his blog, even if you are not. I suggest you begin immediately.

If you don’t want your cherished beliefs questioned, no matter how wrong they are, then find your way over to Bookman’s blog and be embraced in the warm blanket of ignorance that thrives there.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
12:15 pm

Tiberius: “Occupation, I have no problem with people earning their way in life, but the current Disaster-in-Chief hasn’t really done that, has he?”

Someone who worked his way up to a position as law professor, seriously?

Again, you keep moving the goalposts, because if there is one person among all the people currently running for president who has manifestly NOT “earned his way” it is clearly Mitt Romney (all of the other GOP contenders clearly HAVE earned their way in the sense that, unlike George W. Bush, they did not simply inherit their elite positions).

So why do you try to smear Barack Obama as not having earned his way and yet let a total silver spoon kid like Mitt Romney off the hook? Why would you do that?

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
12:31 pm

Occupation, I do not let Romney off the hook at all, as my earlier comments clearly show. Do NOT try to assign beliefs to me that I haven’t stated, OK?

And let’s face it, as far as employment success is concerned Romney has it all over the Disaster-in-Chief. You can’t even measure the success of a “law professor” just out of college, can you? “Community organizer”? What the heck is that? State senator with no significant legislative history who voted “present” more often than not? 2-year U.S. Senator with zero legislative milestones before deciding to run for President. And let’s not even mention the last 3 years.

At least Romney employed people, made money for them, bailed out a floundering Winter Olympics, and successfully ran a state with a legislature in 85% opposition to him.

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
12:33 pm

Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @12:14 pm

If you wanted to know my “cherished beliefs,” you could have checked my post January 13th, 2012 @12:47 pm. What I have written about you is based on facts, not like you do on distortions.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
12:38 pm

Yeah, right, MarkV. You have done nothing BUT espouse your love of Socialist programs on this blog. Sorry, but you can’t have your cake and eat it, too.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
12:52 pm

Tiberius: “I do not let Romney off the hook at all, as my earlier comments clearly show”

Fair point, I have not read through the thread. So I retract that, but : “You can’t even measure the success of a “law professor” just out of college, can you?”

First of all, you don’t go into a position of law professor “right out college”. It takes extensive post-graduate work. I consider that work fairly high level and of some importance to society, not something just anybody walks into. .

“Community organizer”? What the heck is that?”

How is it any less valuable to society that corporate raider?

“At least Romney employed people, made money for them”

That has been claimed but hasn’t been established yet. Count me unconvinced.

And as for him “making money for them”, that’s false. He made money for himself and his partners, and NOT for the actual employees of the firms he bought, sold, cannibalized or whatever he did.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
1:10 pm

Occupation, you really need to up your reading comprehension skills and lay off the liberal talking points.

Does a community organizer employ people? Don’t know. Do they make others money? Don’t think so, but again, don’t know. In short, what function do they serve in the first scheme of things, which is to survive in a world that requires a job and income?

Oh, and the current Disaster-in-Chief graduated Harvard in 1991 and began teaching constitutional law in 1992. Not exactly extensive post-graduate work, now was there? This guy has been propped up by others from day one.

And Romney AT LEAST employed people at Bain Capital, the Winter Olympics and the Commonwealth Of Massachusetts, and as such, enabled them to make money through their employment. And he certainly made a boatload of money for the principals of Bain Capital and had a 78% success rate at saving / expanding companies during his tenure at Bain.

td

January 14th, 2012
1:26 pm

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
12:52 pm

“At least Romney employed people, made money for them”

“That has been claimed but hasn’t been established yet. Count me unconvinced”

Have you read my post? Go to the CA teachers retirement system website that I linked. It states that Bain has earned the fund more than $165 milion dollars. How many teachers is that going to take care of their retirement for?

Stevie Ray

January 14th, 2012
1:27 pm

Romney’s tenure at Bain saw approximately 150 deal transactions. Of that, the press has only cited 4-5 (one currently in dispute on front of WSJ today….many in SC town have no recollection of plant closing) deals where about 6000 jobs were lost. These are very unfortunate outcomes to be certain….Romney will bury any of those who come out against his position however, as you can’t argue with success of the likes of Staples (90,000 jobs), Sports Authority, Dominoes…granted, other capital and PE firms where involved in these deals. Calling any PE firm out for a few poor outcomes (DDI, AMPAD, Clear Channel, KB Toys), IMP, nothing here speaking of anything beyond talking points that will not be vetted by those against him……

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
1:28 pm

Well my response to you got eaten, Tiberius, which is really too bad.

Apparently for whatever reason, the posting function over here on the Wingfield site is more glitchy and unstable than it is on certain other pages. I don’t know why that would be.

That’s too bad, that response took me 5 minutes to write and I don’t really have time to reconstruct it.

Stevie Ray

January 14th, 2012
1:31 pm

TD,

Good points that will also assist Romney when the timing is right (best timing likely if he wins nomination and BO’s folks attack this issue). Some of the largest investors in Bain included state pension funds, edcuational endowments and the like…can anything be said for these successes that benefit many….Too bad we didn’t invest SS dollars in these funds…oh, I forgot, SS is not funded in it’s entirety so that’s non-starter…

Stevie Ray

January 14th, 2012
1:33 pm

WELCOME,

Who loves ya? Your 12:52 blog is so far off base that you should sell same to the DNC as dumbed down talking points for the ingnorant…sorry but that’s putting it mildly. Still love ya baby but gotta call you out on that one…

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
1:45 pm

Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @12:38 pm: “You have done nothing BUT espouse your love of Socialist programs on this blog. Sorry, but you can’t have your cake and eat it, too.”

You are lying again, just like you lied when you wrote that I had been posting under another name. And then you protest about being called dishonest. Sorry, but you can’t have your cake and eat it, too

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
1:53 pm

td, sure you want to cite a PUBLIC employer pension fund in favor of your great private free market hero Mitt Romney?

My understanding is that these private-equity firms like Bain get vast amounts of their capital from PUBLIC pensions.

Fact: private-equity firms exist to reap huge profits for their owners and their partners, NOT create jobs.

Besides, didn’t CalSTRS go bankrupt?

Stevie Ray, you’ll have to be more specific.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
1:57 pm

MarkV, try some psychological help, would you? I never stated that you posted under another name, but that you don’t use your FULL name so that people can’t see how ridiculous your positions really are, thereby saving you from the ridicule of said posts being read by your friends (if you have any) or co-workers.

In short, son, stop being disagreeable for disagreeing’s sake, would you?

Linda

January 14th, 2012
2:01 pm

Welcome@1:53, You said, “Fact: private-equity firms exist to reap huge profits for their owners and their partners, NOT create jobs.”
The fact is that ALL businesses exist to make profits. NO business exists to create jobs. The only exception is non-profit businesses.

td

January 14th, 2012
2:17 pm

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
1:53 pm
td, sure you want to cite a PUBLIC employer pension fund in favor of your great private free market hero Mitt Romney?

My understanding is that these private-equity firms like Bain get vast amounts of their capital from PUBLIC pensions.

Fact: private-equity firms exist to reap huge profits for their owners and their partners, NOT create jobs.

You seem to leave off your “fact” list that they also reap huge amounts of return on investments to the public and private pension firms and to millions of 401K accounts.

How do you think a teacher can in vest only around $100 per month into a retirement account for 30 years and still be able to draw 80 to 90% of their highest years salary for the next 20 to 30 plus years? Social Security buys government bonds and a teacher making $70,000 per year can only expect $1000 per month or about 30%. Now tell us again how evil these private equity firms are?

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
2:18 pm

Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @1:57 pm: “MarkV, try some psychological help, would you? I never stated that you posted under another name, but that you don’t use your FULL name …:

Apparently, you are the one who needs psychological help:

Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! January 13th, 2012,8:23 pm “I realize that it is difficult for certain people to be called out for being just plain wrong in public, which is why you post under another name….”

Hillbilly D

January 14th, 2012
2:19 pm

That’s too bad, that response took me 5 minutes to write and I don’t really have time to reconstruct it.

If you don’t mind a little advice, always copy your post before you hit submit. If it doesn’t go through, then you can send it again and you may get it through, unless of course it tells you it’s a duplicate and you’ve already sent it. In that case, if you’re feeling industrious, you can change a word or two and try again. That may work but then again, it may just be one of those posts that gets lost in cyber-space, never to be seen again. It’s a problem that everybody has been complaining about on the sports and political blogs of AJC, for at least the last couple of years.

The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!

January 14th, 2012
2:21 pm

We may get to see some financials from Mr. Mitt, but rest assured there are scores of accountants and finance types that are right now busy creating phony paper trails and other obfuscations to hide wealth and the source of wealth from even the most astute prying eyes. When people say Mitt hasn’t worked in six years, don’t worry, he’s been spending plenty of time squirreling away money and hiding it from the tax man. For $250M, there are probably at least a dozen trust accounts where funds are hidden, an rest assured Mr. Mitt has plenty of huan he’s holding too.

Through Bain, Mitt bet short on America’s future, a good financial move for him, since he knew that his rich friends would buy up every lobbyist on K street to gut America’s economic future to line their pockets.

He’s slicker than the hair on his head, and slimier than a bucket of santorum.

The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!

January 14th, 2012
2:26 pm

You neo-conjobbers need to know that there are plenty of things that are immoral and unethical that are not illegal, and folks like Mitt have plenty of money to change the laws so they can pirate the hard work of others, and plenty of cash to hire lawyers and liars to drag things out in court if someone calls them on it.

Good gawd, you cons are silly half-wits.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
2:31 pm

Gee, MarkV, I didn’t realize your legal name was, in fact, MarkV.

Do you sign your checks that way? I’ll bet it was embarrassing growing up wishing for a vowel or two to add onto the “V”.

No wonder you’re so screwed up in the head.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
2:38 pm

Mr. Trash@2:21, You sound as if Mr. Romney wrote the tax code & might act the same way as US corporations & every taxpayer who is in a high tax bracket. I find it extraordinary that you neglected to mention that GE pays NO taxes, sends jobs overseas but whose CEO is Obama’s jobs czar.

The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!

January 14th, 2012
2:39 pm

One of the signs of a sociopath is telling people what you think they want to hear instead of the truth for your own aggrandizement. Mitt’s flip-flopping is really just pathological lying from a man with no personality and no soul, and no god except Mammon.

Interesting that he follows the religion started by the 19th century’s most accomplished liar and conman.

Old timer

January 14th, 2012
2:40 pm

Obama is a Marxist……he needs to go.

td

January 14th, 2012
2:42 pm

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
11:51 am

If you want to go by the pure form of a definition of socialism then you have a correct analysis of the text book answer. The problem is there are many form of socialism and we do not live in a textbook world. The President is, by his own admission, a social democrat.

” Democratic socialists do not want to create an all-powerful government bureaucracy. But we do not want big corporate bureaucracies to control our society either. Rather, we believe that social and economic decisions should be made by those whom they most affect”

Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than
to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them. Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned
enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives.
Democratic socialists have long rejected the belief that the whole economy should be centrally planned. While we believe that democratic planning can shape major social investments like mass transit, housing, and energy, market mechanisms are needed to determine the demand for many consumer goods”

You can not deny that this is most of the European countries form of government. This is also the believe system of the US progessive movement and Obama. It is not pure socialism but it is a form of socialism and a direction America does not need to be heading in.

The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!

January 14th, 2012
2:46 pm

Well Linda, then that makes it OK, then!

Gawd almighty, you cons are simpletons.

You have the ethical and moral development of 7 year-olds.

“Well one of Obama’s friends does it, so can Mitt.”

“Well he hit me first!”

“Well, everybody else is doing it.”

Yup, no morals, no ethics, and certainly no brains.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
2:46 pm

Hillbilly: “It’s a problem that everybody has been complaining about on the sports and political blogs of AJC, for at least the last couple of years.”

You’re right about backing up a copy. I do just that when I’m dealing with unreliable sites or am having computer problems. For some reason I always forget to do this at the Wingfield site. Funny you mention sports blogs, that’s where I’ve noticed it most, followed by the occasional burp here under Wingfield. But for whatever reason I have never experienced it at Bookman, no idea why that would be.

td

January 14th, 2012
2:56 pm

The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!

January 14th, 2012
2:46 pm

I would much rather support a capitalist like Romney then a socialist like Obama.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
2:56 pm

Old Timer : Obama is a Marxist……he needs to go.

A Marxist, really? This same Obama whose campaign contributions thus far includes the most money from the financial sector to the tune of $17.6 million, from entities such as Centerview Partners, Barclays Capital, MF Global, UBS, Greenstreet and others.

If that’s a Marxist, that’s a strange kind of Marxist who’s obviously so popular among financial interests.

Hillbilly D

January 14th, 2012
2:56 pm

Welcome to the Occupation

I seem to have more trouble at Mark Bradley’s than anywhere but I have had trouble at one time or another with all of them. It makes no sense to me either but computer stuff is over my head, anyway.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
3:05 pm

Mr. Trash@2:46, Out tax code encourages tax dodging. All higher earners & corporations use it to their advantage. There’s no point in singling out one person.

I will not answer any more of your comments directed to me, if you cannot participate in an intellectual discussion. I’m not impressed nor intimidated by personal attacks. They rather show lack of elocution. You may either show respect or talk to yourself.

The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!

January 14th, 2012
3:07 pm

td, pirates are capitalists and Jesus, if there was such a person, was probably a socialist.

Labeling is a way that stupid people compensate for their lack of critical thinking skills.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
3:10 pm

td: “I would much rather support a capitalist like Romney then a socialist like Obama”

Nothing even remotely ’socialist’ about Obama. See my 2:56.

Linda: “The fact is that ALL businesses exist to make profits. NO business exists to create jobs.”

According to WHOM?

I think you’re getting your definitions from people who have a vested interest in having people define the purposes of business that way.

And assuming for the moment that your definition is right, Linda, why are you so docile and willing to accept things as they are? Why are you so forgiving and willing to allow your society to be defined that way, where something as important as the availability of jobs is completely determined by the whims and narrow interests of a small group of owners, where on your own admission the very livelihoods of people (jobs) are in the hands of people with little incentive to care whether any are created, since they’re worried about more important things like enriching themselves? I don’t know about you, but I make greater demands of those who exercise power in our society.

The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!

January 14th, 2012
3:14 pm

Folks, I am not addressing this to anyone in particular, instead I want everyone to know am not here to engage in “intellectual discussion” with half-wits.

I apologize if I led some of you half-wits to think that I was.

td

January 14th, 2012
3:15 pm

The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!

January 14th, 2012
3:07 pm

You are the ones throwing the names and labels around. I just made the logical comparison and now you attempt to make (one of the generalizations you purport to reject) towards people that label others.

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
3:15 pm

Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @ 2:31 pm

You got caught in a lie, and now you are trying to weasel out. Anybody can check the facts. Let’s repeat. You had written, “… you post under another name.” Later you wrote, “I never stated that you posted under another name…” A lie. And you claimed in the latter post that you had written, “… but that you don’t use your FULL name.” You had not written that. A lie again.

Incidentally, is Tiberius your full name, is that how you sign checks?

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
3:16 pm

Hillbilly D: “I seem to have more trouble at Mark Bradley’s”

Same here. So it’s clearly not just our imagination

td

January 14th, 2012
3:24 pm

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
3:10 pm
td: “I would much rather support a capitalist like Romney then a socialist like Obama”

Nothing even remotely ’socialist’ about Obama. See my 2:56.

Your post at 2:56 proves nothing at all. Read my post at 2:42 and come back and try to deny that the definition does not fit Obama to a tee? The social democratic (progressive movement in the US) is a hybrid form of socialism and Obama is a socialist. Why do Obama supports want keep denying the truth instead of defending the philosophy? Are you ashamed of supporting a socialist?

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
3:29 pm

td @2:42 pm

This is not a question of purity of a definition. There is a fundamental difference between socialism and social democracy. Socialism is one economic system, as I wrote, the essential core of which, what makes socialism socialism, is about who own the means of production etc. There are socialists in the Europe as well as elsewhere, who advocate it. Social democrats do not. I have not denied that ”this is most of the European countries form of government.” In fact, that is what I stated. I should have added, also, that there are many variations of the social democracy, even among the member of the EU. For that same reason, it is a very silly argument that there is some specific direction (according to the critics), in which the US is heading. Where the US is heading will be decided by the people of this country, and it does not have to be anything like what exists anywhere else.

Incidentally, those who attack social democracy are in a “good company.” Karl Marx vehemently opposed it.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
3:32 pm

td, sure, I see your point, but the passage you cite starting “We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them. Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned” is not from Obama’s own hand. And if it had been, one would be justified in attacking him for governing in complete indifference to his own stated principles.

So in reality, I find I’m very skeptical of any definition of him as a socialist. But of course of you define him as “social democrat”, even that tradition has long been committed to markets and capitalism more than to a strict interpretation of Marxist principles. Am I wrong?

td

January 14th, 2012
3:39 pm

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
3:29 pm

And is it not true that most all scholars state that social democracy is a form of socialism? Is it or is it not true that the progressives in the United States consider themselves to be social democrats? Is it or is it not true that Obama calls himself a progressive?

I believe all of the statements are true and as a result it is an accurate definition to call Obama a socialist. A more accurate definition would be social democrat but a socialist is still accurate.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 14th, 2012
3:40 pm

redneckbluedog: [Lil' Barry Bailout] HATES Barack Obama with a passion beyond politics….Perhaps he is racist….I would remind him that Barack Obama is half-white
—————————–

There’s a word for folks like you who make decisions about people without any supporting facts–prejudiced.

redneckbluedog: Prejudiced.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 14th, 2012
3:46 pm

Welcome to the Occupation: Romney…pays a measly capital gains rate and therefore pays a rate almost half what average Americans pay
——————-

All Americans, rich or poor, pay the same capital gains rate.

Your talking point clearly identifies you as an envious, greed, economic know-nothing.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
3:46 pm

Welcom@3:10, Are you serious? The first & foremost reason that any business, large or small, exists is to make a profit. A college student can’t last one day in Econ 101 without understanding the fundamental concept of a business. An entrepreneur doesn’t wake up one day & want to go out & create jobs. He begins with an idea. Jobs outside his own are merely byproducts, a means to grow his business & make even more money.
The definition of businesses can’t be changed any more than the definition of the economy.
The goals of the businessman (owner of the company) is no different than the goals of his employees. It’s about money. Everyone is working to maintain &/or improve their standard of living & enrich themselves.
Employees’ jobs might be hands of their employers’, but, at the same time, the employers’ businesses are in the hands of their employees.
Employers have the right to fire, but employees have the right to quit.
Businesses compete with each other for the best employees. Employees compete with each other (resumes) for the best jobs at the best businesses.
There are many who are born with opportunity, but the fact is that the majority of business owners were they themselves employees, who went out on their own, worked 24/7, brought their families into the business with no compensation, mortgaged their homes, sold possessions, sacrificed & risked everything they had. Some make it. Some do not.
That’s the US economy.

td

January 14th, 2012
3:50 pm

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
3:32 pm

“We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them”

The way todays progressives and Obama words this is called Social Justice.

“him as “social democrat”, even that tradition has long been committed to markets and capitalism more than to a strict interpretation of Marxist principles. Am I wrong?”

But is it not true that Marx said a country must first become a socialist nation before it can become a pure communist nation?

Hillbilly D

January 14th, 2012
3:52 pm

The first & foremost reason that any business, large or small, exists is to make a profit.

That’s why anytime I walk into a business and they have one of those “Mission Statements” on the wall, I just chuckle to myself. Who do they think they’re fooling? They’re there to get my money and I’m there to get something they have, that I want or need. Let’s just drop the charade and get the transaction done, we’re all adults.

GodHatesTrash, p.b.u.h.

January 14th, 2012
4:04 pm

Let’s face it – racism motivates many, if not most, Obama-haters. It’s no accident that Obama-haters are most prevalent in Dicksea, where racism is enshrined and glorified in the persistent victimology of The Lost Cause and the anti-government States’ Rights movement.

Since McCarthy and Nixon, the GOP has focused on fanning the flame of white lower-and-middle class fears of various bogeymen and women – communists, atheists, intellectuals (which to your typical Georgian means a high-school graduate), hippies, women, foreigners, immigrants legal and “illegal”, homosexuals, and, of course, that old stand-by, colored folks. Obama is black, and has a funny sounding name, and an Ivy League education.

Three strikes as far as the k*k*kooks in the tea party are concerned. His wife is educated too – strike four – and an Ivy League grad – strike five. The socialist thing is just window dressing, an attempt by the haters to change the subject from their fears – xenophobia, anti-intellectualism, racism, homophobia, femiphobia – and their lack of intellect back to their bogeyman, the black man Obama.

Boo!

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
4:10 pm

td @3:39 pm “And is it not true that most all scholars state that social democracy is a form of socialism?”

Simple answer: No, it is not true.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
4:25 pm

The demagoguery continues. You cannot agree that Obama is a socialist, but you can all agree that he is a progressive since he admitted it.

http://www.progressive.org/mag/nichols0109.html

Personally, I don’t think progressives hold a glass of water above socialists. They’re about the same. One just sounds better.

Obama is also a nationalist, sort of like Hugo Chavez. He has nationalized 2 of the 3 auto makers, the largest insurance company in the world (AIG), student loans, health care, air, etc.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 14th, 2012
4:29 pm

I’m married to a minority and I still think obozo is a pos.

Just sayin…

GodHatesTrash, p.b.u.h.

January 14th, 2012
4:52 pm

Wife or hostage, Curly?

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
5:02 pm

Little Barry bailout All Americans, rich or poor, pay the same capital gains rate.

Yes, but how many Americans’ income consists ONLY of capital gains.

The answer? Very few.

C’mon, buddy, read your Marx.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
5:07 pm

Liberals can only focus on skin-color & forget that there are 10 areas of discrimination. All they can see is that Obama is black, or at least half-black.

What if an old, straight-haired, white Lesbian Chinese-American Christian woman, dressed in overalls & using a wheelchair, who believes in individual salvation, disagrees with Obama’s policies?

Maybe she is discriminating against Obama on the basis of age, race, color, gender identity, national origin, religion, sex, sexual orientation, (un) disability AND creed.

The race card is getting old. Pick some new material from the list above.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
5:08 pm

Bailout, in other words, poor people don’t

By definition, the poor — like the middle class — live on their earned wages. Aside from the one-off lottery winner or inheritor a la Eddy Murphy in Trading Places, the poor don’t have capital gains.

For the Mitt Romneys of the world, ALL of their income is through capital gains, i.e. unearned. Adam Smith spins in his grave at the stranglehold these people have on our economy. And we want to make this guy president?

GodHatesTrash, Superstar

January 14th, 2012
5:13 pm

It is interesting that in a country that supposedly values hard work, people that work for their income have it taxed as high as 38%, while rich folks that inherited their money (Romney’s fortune was started by cash he inherited from his very successful father) pay far less, and often nothing at all for the money they ‘earn’.

GodHatesTrash, Superstar

January 14th, 2012
5:16 pm

Most stupid white people are racists. Most stupid white people vote Republican.

There. I’ve dumbed it down so even a tea partier can understand it.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
5:19 pm

Welcome@5:02, You’re leaving out step one. Before investors pay capital gains taxes, they have to make a profit on an investment that they made with MONEY. Most investors invest MONEY they received from income from a job, income that they paid federal & state taxes on.

Call any financial planner or stock broker. You will learn that most of their clients are employees or retirees from public or private sector jobs. While you are on the phone, set up an appointment & start investing now. Don’t cash out any investment until you retire.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
5:26 pm

Welcome, If capital gains are unearned, what are capital losses?

Ross Perot

January 14th, 2012
5:28 pm

MarkV is splitting hairs on various forms of socialism.
Proponents of state socialism advocate for the nationalisation of the means of production, distribution and exchange as a strategy for implementing socialism. Social democrats advocate redistributive taxation and government regulation of capital within the framework of a market economy.[6]
I think this is the form that he would prefer. Interesting to note, most Europeans never realize home ownership, they are permanent renters from the wealthy or state housing. I am going out on a limb saying that MarkV would prefer to rent and have the Government subsidize his existence, see previous reference on Libya, as opposed to discipline himself intellectually to try and become one of the 1%.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 14th, 2012
5:33 pm

GodHatesTrash, Superstar: It is interesting that in a country that supposedly values hard work, people that work for their income have it taxed as high as 38%
—————————

Your klown prince Obozo apparently doesn’t value hard work. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be planning to raise income tax rates next year.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 14th, 2012
5:36 pm

Welcome to the Occupation: How many Americans’ income consists ONLY of capital gains.
————————

Don’t know, but there aren’t many idiots in that group. I guess that’s what you call “smart money”.

If you want to be taxed at the capital gains tax rate, get your income from investing instead of working like an old mule. Duh.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
5:38 pm

Ross Perot: “see previous reference on Libya, as opposed to discipline himself intellectually to try and become one of the 1%. ”

You think making it to the 1% is about discipline?

Whatever helps you reconcile yourself with the current system I guess.

Linda: “If capital gains are unearned, what are capital losses?”

Doesn’t really matter, does it? I mean, why should we be concerned with the losses of gamblers?

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
6:08 pm

Ross Perot @5:28 pm: “MarkV is splitting hairs on various forms of socialism.”

Really? And as evidence of that you have sumitted the following?

“Proponents of state socialism advocate for the nationalisation of the means of production, distribution and exchange as a strategy for implementing socialism. Social democrats advocate redistributive taxation and government regulation of capital within the framework of a market economy.[6]”

What you have shown is what I have argued, that social democracy is not socialism
As for the rest of your post, it is so silly it is laughable. Your limb would quickly break. You know nothing about me, and your reference to Libya is a nonsense (why don’t you show it?).

td

January 14th, 2012
6:13 pm

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
5:08 pm
Bailout, in other words, poor people don’t

By definition, the poor — like the middle class — live on their earned wages. Aside from the one-off lottery winner or inheritor a la Eddy Murphy in Trading Places, the poor don’t have capital gains

This is a mute argument since the bottom 47% of wage earners pay $0 in Federal income tax.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 14th, 2012
6:13 pm

It looks like trashman got evicted from another public park and now uses this blog to spread his filth, disease and natural inbred liberal perversions.

And, as usual, all of the decent people are forced to hold their noses and walk the long way around this nasty public display.

ew

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 14th, 2012
6:20 pm

RCP South Carolina Avg: Romney Lead Slips to 4.7

Now that the freaks in New Hampshire have had their say, we can move on to what the American people think.

Romney won’t be the nominee.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
6:21 pm

Welcome, There are liberals who believe that high income people have enough money & that the fed. govt. deserves all of it over & above what it thinks is fair. Liberals believe that there is point where enough money is enough.

High earners have a choice of what to do with their extra cash. They certainly don’t hide it under their mattresses. They can:
1. spend it on themselves. They can buy fancy homes, cars, boats, trips, etc. They support the people who work in the manufacture & installation of lumber, flooring, windows, doors, kitchen appliances & cabinetry, etc. They support the people on the auto assembly line, hotel maids, cooks & bellmen. They send their kids to private schools, supporting teachers.
2. invest it. When people invest in the stock market, they are supporting companies & providing capital for them to, in turn, invest in more factories & equipment, which creates JOBS.
3. donate it. Universities, colleges, hospitals, museums, etc. include wings & entire structures named after individual donors.
The entire reasoning behind a low capital gains tax rate is to encourage investment in American businesses & therefore, the American economy, & therefore, the US worker.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
6:35 pm

td: “This is a mute argument since the bottom 47% of wage earners pay $0 in Federal income tax.”

The vast majority of the population — the 99% — lives on their wage income and has to have earnings above a certain level to even be able to pay Federal income tax. The 1%, by contrast, of course lives on capital income.

So pointing out the fact that many people pay no Federal income tax tells us nothing except that the SYSTEM itself isn’t working, i.e. isn’t providing anything close to full employment (which of course is exactly how the capitalists and industrialists want it, as they fiercely oppose anything approaching full employment because it is in their interests to keep workers a little hungry, and docile).

Linda

January 14th, 2012
6:37 pm

Welcome, You have NO way of knowing whose income is from capital gains or wages or commissions or fees, especially Romney. The means of payment does make one person more or less evil than another. The amount of payment does make one person more or less evil than another. Fat cats are neither fat nor cats not bad.

Streetracer

January 14th, 2012
6:42 pm

Welcome etc @ 5:38

Your last statement pretty much sums up what is wrong with your arguments. If someone risks money and is successful we should tax those profits, but if they are not “Oh well, they were just a gambler”. Do you not see the contradiction in those positions?

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
6:43 pm

Romney won’t be the nominee.

Ooh there’s gonna be some hurtin in conland in about another 3 weeks when Romney is crowned the nominee.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
6:46 pm

Welcome, No! 99% of Americans do not live on their wage income. 99% of Americans do not have a wage. Some are retired, self-employed, unemployed, incarcerated, disabled, etc.
The top 1% do not live on capital gains. Hollywood, professional athletes & CEOs do NOT get paid via capital gains.
Your statement regarding capitalists & industrialists is about as kinky as it gets. Where are you coming from?

td

January 14th, 2012
6:50 pm

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
4:10 pm
td @3:39 pm “And is it not true that most all scholars state that social democracy is a form of socialism?”

Simple answer: No, it is not true.

I think you just got to the point of being intellectually dishonest. You know as well as I do that most scholarly work done on the subject since the late 1800’s states that social democracy and other such term is a form of socialism. Go do a little reading of the following:

Donald Busky’s Democratic Socialism: A Global Survey, Jim Tomlinson’s Democratic Socialism and Economic Policy: The Attlee Years, 1945-1951, Norman Thomas Democratic Socialism: a new appraisal or Roy Hattersley’s Choose Freedom: The Future of Democratic Socialism.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
7:06 pm

Streetracer: “If someone risks money and is successful we should tax those profits, but if they are not “Oh well, they were just a gambler”. Do you not see the contradiction in those positions?”

The problem is in your initial terms “risk money” and “is successful”, because when you define it that way there’s nothing that differentiates this activity from the most banal sort of Las Vegas gambling.

I think the kind of investment we’re aiming for here is the kind that benefits society and provides jobs, and these types of investments have always been provided by the government. Classic exampe: the Internet.

td

January 14th, 2012
7:12 pm

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
7:06 pm

“I think the kind of investment we’re aiming for here is the kind that benefits society and provides jobs, and these types of investments have always been provided by the government. Classic exampe: the Internet.”

That is called being a democratic socialist. Thank you for admitting that you are one.

The government has a poor track record of late in its “investments”. The energy movement is about to crash and burn all over Obama’s plate. BTW: The internet was built for military purposes as well as GPS’s. I have no problem with investing in military R&D but I am guessing you just might.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
7:14 pm

td, saying that MarkV is intellectually dishonest is a redundant statement.

And he’s borderline psychotic as well.

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
7:14 pm

td @6:50 pm

Sorry td, my answer stands. I have done more reading of this than you will ever do, and I have more life experience of this matter than you will ever have.

But since you are so relentless, I will turn the tables on you. Just answer the following questions:

1. Is it or is it not true that socialism is fundamentally different from capitalism?
2. Is it or is it not true that any definition of capitalism contains a version of the following; “An economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production and distribution is maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means?”
3. Does Sweden, which is considered the primary example of a social democracy, have a private ownership, or state ownership of the major parts of the means of production?

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
7:16 pm

Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @7:14 pm

Since you have been already proven a liar, I wonder who would pay attention to your insults.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
7:19 pm

Welcome, Are you for real? You must be leading us on. No one can be that skewed in their thinking. If you believe that only the fed. govt. benefits society & provides jobs, you are a lost soul. Maybe you are unaware that the fed. govt. is out of money & won’t be investing in diddly squat for the next upteen decades.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
7:22 pm

MarkV, the problem is that only you believe I have lied, therefore, I never did.

Seek professional help. You need it badly.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
7:24 pm

Linda, you’re certainly correct about the different groups that make up the 99% and the fact that the 1% are not all capital gains earners. I was oversimplifying to illustrate my point.

Your statement regarding capitalists & industrialists is about as kinky as it gets. Where are you coming from?

I’m simply pointing out the fact the main impetus for the rollback of the “Keynesian” consensus of the 1950s and 60s was not so much a rejection of government investment or deficit spending per se, but it was a rejection of the Keynesian argument for the priority of employment as a primary goal for fiscal policy. The capitalists never liked that because the lower the unemployment rate falls, the bolder and more demanding the workers get.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
7:30 pm

td: “I have no problem with investing in military R&D but I am guessing you just might.”

The very example I cited for an original government investment that led to an explosion of growth and jobs, not to mention technological innovation — the Internet — was of course originally launched by the military.

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
7:30 pm

Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @7:22 pm: “MarkV, the problem is that only you believe I have lied, therefore, I never did.

That is the third lie just today. You have not even bothered to deny the other two:

Let’s repeat. You had written, “… you post under another name.” Later you wrote, “I never stated that you posted under another name…” A lie. And you claimed in the latter post that you had written, “… but that you don’t use your FULL name.” You had not written that. A lie again.

td

January 14th, 2012
7:31 pm

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
7:14 pm
td @6:50 pm

Sorry td, my answer stands. I have done more reading of this than you will ever do, and I have more life experience of this matter than you will ever have.

Since I do not know your academic history or your work experience and you do not know mine either then how can you make such a statement? Unless, you have a PhD in political science then I think my credentials can stand side by side at a minimum to yours.

Your first two questions are true and Sweden is not by your definition a socialist nation but it is by many scholars and by a common sense reading of a social democracy.

Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!

January 14th, 2012
7:34 pm

MarkV, Please send me via an e-mail to Kyle Wingfield proof that your real name is MarkV. Otherwise, your particularly creepy responses to me literally have no bearing on this “discussion”.

Or you could just hang out at Bookman’s blog as I suggested where your particular psychotic behavior would seem normal.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
7:44 pm

Linda; “Maybe you are unaware that the fed. govt. is out of money & won’t be investing in diddly squat for the next upteen decades.”

The Federal government has access to all the money it could possibly want. It’s just that it doesn’t really want the money. Here’s why:

1) taxation, the wealthy pay the lowest tax rate perhaps ever, and government revenue as a percentage of GDP is the lowest since Herbert Hoover, so the problem is not a lack of money, but a lack of political WILL to tax those who are best off and whose incomes is soaring as never before. May I remind you that in the 1950s under the Keynesian regime top tax brackets were well into the 90%s (not that’s not a typo); and

2) we are the only country whose currency is the world’s reserve currency and right now our interest rates are at historically low levels, meaning we can borrow at near zero cost. So there is no way to argue that we cannot utilize this advantage to finance new public investments, job programs, and other avenues for pulling us out of the recession. The only reason we do not, once again, is because of a lack of political will.

Streetracer

January 14th, 2012
7:48 pm

Welcome:

You are kinda missing the point here. If one takes a risk (gambles if you will) and wins they nare penalized with high taxes. Right? Seems to me that the losers should also be compenstaed for thier lose. Based on your perceptions is that not reasonable?

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
7:53 pm

td @7:31 pm: “Your first two questions are true and Sweden is not by your definition a socialist nation but it is by many scholars and by a common sense reading of a social democracy.”

Thank you for agreeing with me. However, it is not “my definition.” Sweden is not a socialist nation, and it is a social democracy. Case closed.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
8:01 pm

Streetracer: “f one takes a risk (gambles if you will) and wins they nare penalized with high taxes”

In short, yes, that’s right.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
8:06 pm

Welcom@7:24, Keynesian economics is what the fed. govt. has been trying since ‘08. It didn’t work during the Great Depression & it has not worked during this Great Recession. The govt. has NOT been able to increase demand by pouring trillions of money into the economy. This time it was with money we did not have. Borrowing it has led to a debt that has already led to a downgrade of our credit, soon to be repeated. Printing it out of thin air has led to inflation that has been anti-progressive, hurting the folks at the bottom the most. All the economic stimulus bills, the trillion that has been poured into housing, etc. have been complete failures. We need to throw the shovel out of the ditch, if it’s not too late.

There IS no argument that the “priority of employment as a primary goal for fiscal policy.” The argument is how & who creates jobs. The govt. certainly does not, never has & never will, not to the extent of those needed.

Every member of congress should be required to repeat Econ 101, as if they ever passed it in the first place OR CARE. The economy is as natural as a river. All the fed. govt. has done is impede its flow with way too many regulations, & at the same time, tried to stimulate it to run, as if it would not do so, if merely left alone. Temporary gimmicks lead to more uncertainty.

Dusty

January 14th, 2012
8:09 pm

Well, goodness, all this fuss over socialism. And don’t ask me about the particulars. I just know that some things Pres. Obama has done do not suit me. Need I say ObamaCare and the seemingly blindness to the national debt. That’s it. Maybe a few more things! But those are the biggies!

Anyone cold today? I’m sitting here in a “warm” house with a fleece lined jacket zipped around me. Maybe you are fussin’ to keep warm. Come on. I had a good day with sunshine! I’d build a fire tonight but I’m too lazy.. (Confession is good for the soul!)

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
8:10 pm

Streetracer: “f one takes a risk (gambles if you will) and wins they nare penalized with high taxes”

We need an economic system that rewards not gambling but co-determination between labor and management and ownership, and long-term growth in products that benefit the whole of society, not to mention the earth. That requires some degree of social planning and regulation to control capital accumulation. There is no such thing as an invisible hand or a natural market logic that benefits society at large.

Michael H. Smith

January 14th, 2012
8:16 pm

And a Marxist by any other name or degree is not to be considered a fascist, a socialist or a communist. Just a mere “social democrat”?

Social democracy

19th Century usage

In the 19th Century, the term “Social Democrat” was used as a broad catch-all for international socialists owing their basic ideological allegiance to Karl Marx or Ferdinand Lassalle, in contrast to those advocating various forms of utopian socialism. In one of the first scholarly works on European socialism written for an American audience, Richard T. Ely’s 1883 book, French and German Socialism in Modern Times, Social Democrats were characterized as “the extreme wing of the socialists” who were “inclined to lay so much stress on equality of enjoyment, regardless of the value of one’s labor, that they might, perhaps, more properly be called communists.”[3] Ely continued:

“They have two distinguishing characteristics. The vast majority of them are laborers, and, as a rule, they expect the violent overthrow of existing institutions by revolution to precede the introduction of the socialistic state. I would not, by any means, say that they are all revolutionists, but the most of them undoubtedly are. * * *

“The most general demands of the social democrats are the following: The state should exist exclusively for the laborers; land and capital must become collective property, and production be carried on unitedly. Private competition, in the ordinary sense of the term, is to cease.”[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

All the fruits of one root. Case closed.

td

January 14th, 2012
8:17 pm

Welcome to the Occupation

January 14th, 2012
8:10 pm

Europe already are democrat socialist and the majority of this country does not want to head in that failed direction. If you want to be a socialist then might I suggest that you consider moving to Europe.

td

January 14th, 2012
8:19 pm

Michael H. Smith

January 14th, 2012
8:16 pm

And what you just explained is the progressive movement in the United States and it is what Obama believes in and inspires to lead us too.

Michael H. Smith

January 14th, 2012
8:28 pm

td
January 14th, 2012
8:17 pm

We have gone so far in that Marxist or socialist direction already it boggles the mind to seriously think about it.

Don’t think so, then tell me one and I only want one… one thing that a federal government regulation does not effect in our everyday life in some way, shape, form or fashion?

I can’t honestly think of one.

Michael H. Smith

January 14th, 2012
8:32 pm

td
January 14th, 2012
8:19 pm

You’ll get no argument to the contrary from me on that point my friend; and it began with none other than Democrat President Woodrow Wilson

Dusty

January 14th, 2012
8:38 pm

Anyone wanting to read a sensible well balanced piece should consider National ReviewOnline with Deputy Editor Kevin Williamson’s “Obama, Incompetent or Evil”.

Much of it is about the feelings of citizens concerning the president i. e. evil or incompetent. Williamson projects his thoughts on how Romney might govern or one more fiery might work with Congress. It is a thoughtful practical review. I think we need more of this kind of political journalism.

Michael H. Smith

January 14th, 2012
8:57 pm

From ~ Obama: Incompetent or Evil?

Among my correspondents, there are many who are very plain about the fact that they would rather lose with Gingrich or Santorum than win with Romney.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/287921/obama-incompetent-or-evil-kevin-d-williamson?pg=2

We have some very foolish people on the right that will literally cut their noses off to spite their own ideological faces.

Dusty

January 14th, 2012
9:16 pm

Michael H. Smith, 8:57

I feel like foolish people on the right might change their mind when it comes time to vote. They might think twice before they would take that misstep. There’s still time to think again and I believe they will.

td

January 14th, 2012
9:24 pm

Dusty

January 14th, 2012
9:16 pm

One of the main reasons Obama is in office is because some on the right sat out the 08 election (especially social conservatives). If you take a look at what happened in 10 with the turnout then I think you could come to the conclusion that they have learned their lesson. Now a good many of the Ron Paul supporters are a different question. The large majority of the young one voted for Obama in 08 and I think they will either sit out 10 or vote Libertarian.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
9:41 pm

Welcome@7:44, One of the points I would like to strongly make is that the fed. govt. is not entitled to any more taxpayer money. Congress has not been exactly keen on stewardship. It has not only run up a natl. debt of over $15 T, but it has spent every penny in both the social security & medicare “trust” funds. Those funds are now full of chits, that is, little pieces of paper that have big letters of IOU. Unfunded liabilities are at the tune of $117.2 T. There is no reason to believe that any additional tax dollars sent to DC will be spent in any way that the average American taxpayer deems appropriate. Sending more money to DC is equivalent to giving a drug addict more drugs.

1. No, the wealthy do NOT pay the lowest tax rate perhaps, ever.
2. Borrowing money at near zero cost, what we’ve been doing for 4 yrs., hasn’t worked.

You refer to the 90% tax brackets in the ’50s. A contributor today opined about how top earners, both individuals & corporations, evade taxes. That’s true. When those 90% tax brackets dropped from the ’50s, it was John F. Kennedy in the ’60s who brought it to the attention of the govt. that, regardless of the tax brackets, fed. revenues remain the same. He said:
“It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now … Cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus.”
– John F. Kennedy, Nov. 20, 1962, president’s news conference

Here’s other quotes by JFK on taxes & revenues:

http://swampbubbles.com/bubble/john-f-kennedy-taxes

Historically, regardless of tax rates & brackets, tax revenues have remained the same. Raising taxes DOES NOT increase tax revenues, no more than raising the minimum wage increases the number of jobs.

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
10:02 pm

Michael H. Smith @8:16 pm: “Social democracy 19th Century usage”

How appropriate. That is what we need. 19th Century usage.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
10:14 pm

Welcome@8:10, We already have an economic system. It will never be changed without the entire Constitution being overthrown. We are a republic & were an experiment in capitalism that has worked & will work until the end of the world. We are a light of the world!
Labor will NEVER OWN private companies except when progressives such as Obama are allowed to meddle in privately owned companies & micromanage bankrupt companies! What am I saying! That is what has & is happening! You are right!
We need to benefit the earth? Are you talking about politicians in DC & the UN capping & trading our air & making global warning going away by burying our air? My goodness. I was unaware that politicians were a cure-all.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
10:42 pm

MarkV among others are plants from the Obama adm. on this blog. Smile, you are on arsenic camera.

Dusty

January 14th, 2012
11:12 pm

No, Linda,

I don’t think that MarkV is a plant from the Obama administration. “Plants” are usually just diplomatic enough to make a point. They don’t want to be obvious.

MarkV is simply cantankerous although close to the facts. He is certainly not trying to “win over” anybody. In fact, I believe he dislikes propaganda or what he considers to be propaganda. He’ll never win a popularity contest but he might make a debate a bit interesting.

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
11:13 pm

Linda @10:42 pm

At last somebody has managed to see through my disguise. Bravo, Linda!

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
11:16 pm

Dusty @11:12 pm

Come on, Dusty, you are getting soft. Are you trying to spoil my fun?

Linda

January 14th, 2012
11:18 pm

No, Dusty. He’s just as incompetent & as arrogant as the rest of the adm.

Linda

January 14th, 2012
11:21 pm

Dusty, See what I mean?

Dusty

January 14th, 2012
11:24 pm

OK! Hang ‘em from the highest yardarm, mates.. We’ll have no foolishness here!!

MarkV

January 14th, 2012
11:39 pm

Right, Dusty. Or let them walk the plank! Give them what they deserve.
I hope your birdbath is heated like ours these days.
Night.

Welcome to the Occupation

January 15th, 2012
12:57 am

Mitt Romney is a pathetic slug.

And he’s a perfect choice to lead a slime-bag Republican party.

Michael H. Smith

January 15th, 2012
6:19 am

MarkV@10:02 pm – How appropriate. That is what we need. 19th Century usage

For those who may have problems following the proverbial yellow brick road (so to speak) that leads one through a brief informative history of the not so wonderful world of Marxism in search of United Socialist States of America – better know as the U.S.A., presently under the mismanagement of comrade dear supreme ruler of class warfare barack “lil barry” hussein obama.

Present Usage

Social democracy advocates the creation of legal reforms and economic redistribution programs to eliminate economic class disparities between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat.[7] It advocates the development of an economic democracy and the development of cooperative business organizations as an alternative to private enterprise.[21]>[22] One example of a modern social democratic economic plan was the Meidner Plan in Sweden which was enacted in 1982 and promoted a gradualist market socialist achievement of social ownership through taxation on private enterprise and transferring of the money gained to socially-owned investment funds that gradually will result in wage-earners gaining a controlling share in their enterprises;[20] although by the early 90’s the Social Democrats had lost their enthusiasm for it.[23] Practical modern social democratic policies include the promotion of a welfare state, and the creation of economic democracy as a means to secure workers’ rights.[24] The Frankfurt Declaration of the Socialist International in 1951, attended by many social democratic parties from across the world, committed adherents to oppose Bolshevik communism—especially Stalinism, and to promote a gradual transformation of capitalism into socialism.[18]

Many of the policies espoused by social democrats in the first half of the 20th century have since been put into practice by social democratic governments throughout the industrialized world. Industries have been nationalized, public spending has seen a large long-term rise, and the role of the state in providing free-to-user or subsidized health care and education has increased greatly. Many of the reforms made by social democrats in Europe, such as the establishment of national health care services, have been embraced by liberals and conservatives, and there is no support outside of a radical fringe for a return to 19th-century levels of public spending and economic regulation. Even in the United States, where no major social democratic party exists, there are regulatory programmes (such as public health and environmental protection) and welfare programmes (such as Medicare[25] and Medicaid[26]) which enjoy bipartisan support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

All the fruits of one “Marxist” root.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
6:56 am

Linda: The entire reasoning behind a low capital gains tax rate is to encourage investment in American businesses & therefore, the American economy, & therefore, the US worker.
———————–

That’s why the America-hating Democrat party wants to increase the cap gains tax rate–so we’ll have less investment.

And don’t forget what Klown Prince Obozo said during the campaign–he’d increase the cap gains tax rate even if it meant lower revenues…out of a concern for “faaaaaaaairness”.

For real Americans, Obozo’s eviction from our White House can’t come soon enough.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
6:59 am

Welcome to the Occupation: I’m a pathetic slug.

And if I went over to Bookman’s blog, the average IQ of both blogs would increase.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
7:00 am

Fixed.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
7:13 am

MarkV: That is what we need. 19th Century usage.
————————-

Too bad Democrats don’t believe in 19th century usage. If they did, they wouldn’t be called “liberals” because 19th century liberals believed in, you know, liberty. Today’s liberals fear real freedom because it means they get less control over peoples’ lives.

Streetracer

January 15th, 2012
7:20 am

LBB:

I’m not sure I agree totally with your 7:13. I think that at least part of the fear is having to control their own lives. You know, like support themselves and stuff.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
7:33 am

You’re absolutely right. That is a major fear of the rank-and-file Democrat and is what drives their decision on election day–”which candidate will give me the most stuff? God help me if I have to pay my own cell phone bill.”

GodHatesTrash, Superstar

January 15th, 2012
8:33 am

I see the tinfoil hat club worked late and got up early last night, wanting to rollback the 20th century.

How quaint. How cute. How stupid.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
8:46 am

I think I hear a [intellectual] gnat buzzing around.

Jefferson

January 15th, 2012
9:20 am

Those who think you can run the gov’t like that, know little about Congress’s ablility to funtion.

Michael H. Smith

January 15th, 2012
9:27 am

Nah llb, those are just the primitive sounds made by a common Vladimir Lenin species of useful idiot maggot as it is beginning to morph into another drab mundane Marxist garbage pile gnat.

Michael H. Smith

January 15th, 2012
9:30 am

Ability to function… Congress?

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
9:33 am

The less Congress “functions”, the better. Unless they’re taking an ax to the federal budget.

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
9:36 am

It has been kind of fun poking in the eyes of people, whose arguments consist of throwing around labels like Socialism, Communism, Marxism, mostly without understanding what those terms exactly mean. In the end they have been reduced to citing from Wikipedia (the same people would crucify me if I did that; however, I have no quarrel with the citation) the following:

“Many of the policies espoused by social democrats in the first half of the 20th century have since been put into practice by social democratic governments throughout the industrialized world. Industries have been nationalized, public spending has seen a large long-term rise, and the role of the state in providing free-to-user or subsidized health care and education has increased greatly. Many of the reforms made by social democrats in Europe, such as the establishment of national health care services, have been embraced by liberals and conservatives, and there is no support outside of a radical fringe for a return to 19th-century levels of public spending and economic regulation. Even in the United States, where no major social democratic party exists, there are regulatory programmes (such as public health and environmental protection) and welfare programmes (such as Medicare[25] and Medicaid[26]) which enjoy bipartisan support.”

SO WHAT? Has anybody denied that social democracy has developed from the idea of socialism? “All the fruits of one “Marxist” root.” BIG DEAL! Capitalism has its roots in feudalism. So what? We have roots in a society condoning slavery. As I have already mentioned, opposition of racism is one of the features of socialist ideology. Should we reject it because of that? Do you want to reject Medicare, “which enjoy bipartisan support,” because it is one of the reforms made by social democrats in Europe? Go ahead, tell that to the people, you will see how much support you will get. As I have written before, people will decide what they want, and in the end will get it.

In the end, however, we should realize that all this labeling is a sideshow, which only shows the poverty of the minds of people who are using it. How much easier it is to dismiss something by labeling it Socialism or Marxism or Communism, than to argue whether it is right or wrong.

Michael H. Smith

January 15th, 2012
9:45 am

Congress… budget? They can’t pass one of those!

Then again, why should they bother with the minor technicalities of passing a simple budget they never intend to live within, just raise that immoral failure of leadership debt ceiling lil barry hussein once dramatically lamented publicly and since has long ago FLIP-FLOPPED on, in “taking every side of that issue”.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
9:48 am

The GOP-controlled House did pass a budget, but of course the Democrat Senate decided about three years ago that the whole idea of budgets was too limiting and too revelatory of their liberal fascist intentions.

Finish the job Americans started in November 2010. Evict the America-hating vermin from our Senate and White House.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 15th, 2012
9:54 am

KABUL, Afghanistan — A 39-second video purporting to show Marines urinating on dead bodies in Afghanistan is straining U.S.-Afghan relations but is not expected to undo months of work aimed at brokering peace with the Taliban.-Urinal

Aahhh, so we aren’t going to have another Abu Ghraib. Is it because men urinating excites liberals? Is this just a harmless porn flick to them?

Michael H. Smith

January 15th, 2012
9:56 am

It has been painful to people who deny their Marxism to see themselves and their ilk exposed.
Although it has been hilarious to most of us, who not only understand completely (beginning to end) what Marxism and being a Marxist means; as well most us have firmly rejected nearly every aspect of it, label and all: From each according to their ability, to each according to their need ~ Karl Marx.

Pizzaman

January 15th, 2012
10:10 am

Kyle your poll left out one answer: Who cares?

Welcome to the Occupation

January 15th, 2012
10:26 am

MarkV, well put in your 9:36.

Actually what is even more unappreciated in all of the smear attempts and name-calling is the way that social democracy itself was always — certainly in the United States — largely an attempt by the ruling class to buy off workers and stave off outright revolution. And that of course gave us in the post-WW II, esp. in Europe, perhaps the most prosperous and successful societies we’ve ever known. In the United States, part of the buy-off involved fierce anti-communism (purging, etc.) from the ranks of unions and worker groups in the North and West, and racial (i.e. racist) policies in the South. All of this began to break down by the 1970s (partly as the South turned against the deal in the wake of the Civil Rights advances) and nowadays this back-history is even less appreciated than before.

Part of the cynical attempts of the right we see today aim to blur these differences by painting even the slightest critique of the current order as “socialist”, “marxist”, or whatever. If only! But Rush Limpo and the other right wing establishment know that to the extent that they paint the Democratic party as a true left organization — rather than the corporatist, pseudo-left outfit that it really is — they win by collapsing the whole political spectrum into a false choice of ‘market capitalism’ and totalitarian leftism.

Rafe Hollister

January 15th, 2012
10:33 am

Tiberius and td

After being away and catching up on this incessant tit for tat description of definitions for types of government, I can say this, you two are the most kind, tolerant, and patient people that I think have ever typed a word on this blog. Linda as well, although I get the impression she tuned it out after awhile.

td

January 15th, 2012
11:16 am

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
9:36 am

Bottom line my friend. If you have ever been in a welfare office and looked in the eyes of a generational recipient then you would see the look of hopelessness and despair. You would see a lost soul with no hopes of ever being able to feel proud to stand on ones on feet. This is what the Socialist/communist/welfare state (whatever you want to call it) does to our fellow human beings. It is pure evil.

You talked about slavery in the past and the looks I have seen are the same looks that I have read about from former slaves. To take the drive to succeed from a man is to put them into a form of slavery. These people are slaves to the government for survival. The question for you to ponder is are today’s generational welfare recipients really any better off then slaves of the past?

Should we help our fellow citizen on a temporary basis when they are down on their luck? Yes we should and I seriously doubt if you will find a capitalist that will disagree with this statement. Should we want the government take care of people from birth to grave? Not just no but H3LL no. The closer we move to socialism/communism/progressivism the closer we are coming to this reality.

td

January 15th, 2012
11:23 am

Rafe Hollister

January 15th, 2012
10:33 am

Thank you for the compliment. I have always believed that most people call names and bash the things they do not understand because either they are uninformed, unintelligent or are scared to face the truth. They say ugly things to get a negative reaction and then the negative reaction can help them justify their original inadequacies. I try real hard not to help them justify their actions so that maybe one day they will examine their believe system and see the error of their ways.

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
12:12 pm

td @11:16 am

My question to you is the following; What does any of what you have just written to do with me, in other words, why are you addressing that to me?

Michael H. Smith

January 15th, 2012
12:45 pm

td
January 15th, 2012
11:16 am

You are correct.

The different names/labels e.g. fascist, socialist, communist, are all correctly used to describe various degrees of one Marxism.

If it waddles like a fascist Duck, quacks like a socialist Duck, swims like a communist Duck… Then it’s still a dang Marxist Duck!

Welcome to the Occupation

January 15th, 2012
1:57 pm

Wow. What a truly pathetic excuse for a discussion.

Dusty

January 15th, 2012
2:42 pm

Well, as we all know, there are usually two sides to one question.

The question here is whether we want a government run by Democratic principles or one run by Republican principles. Supposedly we would run it jointly but that seems to be a problem now.

Democrats want EVERYONE’s needs the responsibility of government. Sounds good except there is no independence when government makes all decisions. Also, there is not enough money for any country to reduce a majority of citizens to dependency.

Republicans want EVERYONE to be self supporting as far as possible. They believe that private enterprise and self reliance maintain independence. They believe the government’s responsibilities should be limited to education, protection and promotion of free enterprise, all on constitutional limitations..

We struggle at this time to integrate the two party principles. We do not believe that one party will support the ideals of another in any way. That is the problem we have to overcome.

Perhaps if we realize the problem, we will reduce its size more quickly. I’m for that.

Before you ask, here’s a start. Obama is a responsible man but I will vote for the more disciplined & experienced Romney. Your turn.

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
3:07 pm

Dusty @2:42 pm

I would not call what you have written wrong, but its flaw is generalization. You have presented the extremes of Democrats’ positions as if they were positions of all. That clearly is not true. Few Democrats want EVERYONE’s needs the responsibility of government (except in the minds of some posters here). At the same time you presented the Republicans’ position in an interesting way; “Republicans want EVERYONE to be self supporting as far as possible. “ What does “as far as possible mean?” Many Republicans are very happy to have some of their needs to be the responsibility of the government. But you are right that there are different ideas of the appropriate extent of the government involvement. As for a solution, that is what elections are for, isn’t it?

Linda

January 15th, 2012
3:11 pm

Rafe@10:33, Thank you for your kind words. I just went to the park for a while & lo & behold, there were those liberals from this blog, on the children’s playground, in the sandbox, calling the little children vicious names, teaching them how to be liberals. They were foaming at the mouth when the mothers finally let them leave the women’s room. Hope all that soap doesn’t make them too sick.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
4:05 pm

Poll Position: Who’s right about Romney’s time at Bain?
11:51 am January 13, 2012, by Kyle Wingfield
——————–

Still me.

Dusty

January 15th, 2012
4:11 pm

MarkV

I can only speak in generalizations because I have not become what I consider an expert in the field of politics, the study of the economy, or the greater intricacies of government (even with advanced degrees, mostly science). So my opinion is that of one who reads, observes, listens and looks and that is what you get.

So I would say, generally, that the majority of Democrats want as much as possible given to all citizens to increase the health, education, good environmental practices and new energy production. They would do it at the expense of the protection of our country, the decrease of state’s & citizen rights, the failure of many environmental restrictions and new unproven energy efforts. The result if is a mixed loss of independence, personal & public Democrats seem not to notice the huge burden of debt this entails nor make an effort at reducing expenses. They seem not to notice that dependency defeats independence.

Republicans believe that there will always be those who need help and give it to the needy gladly. But they believe more in personal compassion then lax governmental assistance for a class of people based on income. They believe that protection of our country is a vital need, whether at home or abroad. They do not wish extensive government efforts on health, private enterprise or high taxation. They see huge debts as poisonous to a country and prefer “tight” budgets with plans to pay for what is needed. They believe in the value of personal efforts rather than dependency.

So there’s my current “view”. Of course, you see things differently. Elections will not cure all. Support and interest in whom we elect is vital. They will do what they think we want and we MUST want more cooperation between political parties who are now trying to “kill each other with words”.

Talk to you later. Company coming.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 15th, 2012
4:17 pm

President Obama and his family headed out to church this morning for the third time in a month, the latest sign that the president may be using religion to boost his image as the campaign heats up.

Obama has rarely gone to church since becoming president.

Well, well, obozo wants to be a Jesus Freak now that the election draws near. I guess every vote counts, eh?

Betcha when the libs call him on it, he’ll tell the sodomites that he didn’t listen, hahahahahaha,

Freakin weirdos.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
5:46 pm

Yeah, just look at what Obozo has to do to start building his appeal for the election–the opposite of what he’s done for three years. Just this past week he started talking about streamlining the government! Of course, it won’t involve cutting any spending.

Obozo: Phony. Liar.

Obozo receptacles: Idiots.

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
6:06 pm

Dusty

I do not agree with you in details, but I agree with the general sense of your post and your conclusions.

td

January 15th, 2012
6:25 pm

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
12:12 pm

Because you seem to be a proponent of the welfare state (whatever other name you want to call it) Obama ideology. I wrote the example to you as a last ditch effort to have you to do some soul searching in the hopes that you will decide that capitalism is a better alternative.

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
6:44 pm

td @6:25 pm

Please show me the evidence of me being a proponent of the welfare state.

Before we go further, however, I want to apologize. I should not have written what I did about having studied those issues more than you did. You were right, not knowing what you know I should not have done that. On the other hand, I did let you off the hook when you claimed that most all scholars …etc.

Having done the above I broke my own rule not to introduce anything personal into the discussion. But I will break it one more time about this. When I wrote that I had (I would now say most likely) more life experience than you did, which I still believe, it is because I have real life experience with real socialism. So I know better than most here, I am sure, how bad a system real socialism is. Therefore I find it rather hilarious when I read all those comments her about socialism in the Europe and even USA, coming from people who have no idea what they are talking about, and who cannot distinguish between social democracy and socialism. For people who write things like “The different names/labels e.g. fascist, socialist, communist, are all correctly used to describe various degrees of one Marxism,” for those the word ignorant is not strong enough.

Linda

January 15th, 2012
6:45 pm

Dusty & td et al, Google progressives or progressivism etc. to understand where these people are coming from. Get a clear picture of who the progressives are in the Democratic party & what they stand for. You need to understand their beliefs before you debate them, which is probably a waste of your time. You need to understand the history of progressivism & how far they have come via gradualism, that is gradual democratic reform to capitalist economies that will eventually succeed in creating a socialist economy, rather than revolutionary tactics, currently being tried by the Occupiers. You need to understand what they are against & why. I wish these old-timey Democrats on these blogs understood how their party has been infiltrated by the progressives & what their agenda is really about.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
6:49 pm

MarkV: Please show me the evidence of me being a proponent of the welfare state.
————————–

MarkV, in your opinion, is the current slate of welfare programs too generous, or not generous enough? By welfare programs, I mean SS, SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, WIC, Section 8 housing, 99 weeks unemployment checks, PeachCare, free cell phones, Pell grants, government subsidized student loans, HOPE.

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
7:05 pm

Even more hilarious than people talking about Socialist Obama and socialism in the US is when they start talking about Marxism and Communism. They are so passé, and they do not know it. Virtual Neandterthals of politics. Marxism is in the dustbin of history, no serious person of importance in the developed world adheres to it, and Communism is a now an ancient utopian fantasy, which has no relationship to the present. Even those who call themselves Communists do not consider it anything realistic. To use those terms for anybody on the current political scene is simply laughable, but also sad.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 15th, 2012
7:23 pm

Marxism is summed up in the Encarta Reference Library as “a theory in which class struggle is a central element in the analysis of social change in Western societies.” Marxism is the antithesis of capitalism which is defined by Encarta as “an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods, characterized by a free competitive market and motivation by profit.” Marxism is the system of socialism of which the dominant feature is public ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange.

You might want to get a clue, Markie.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 15th, 2012
7:24 pm

Buh bye Packers.

See ya, wouldn’t wanna be ya!

TruthBe

January 15th, 2012
7:31 pm

Obama Sucks

January 15th, 2012
6:58 pm
Why doesn’t the IRS pull the big Black Churches tax exemption for using their church for politics and total support for Democrats? Obama mouthpieces. If a major White Church said the same things about President Obama and the Democrats you people in the mainstreet media and the ACLU folks would be asking the IRS to pull their tax exemption. Black Corruption and Black Racism that’s why. And a spinless White Community and bunch of cowardly Liberals that’s why. http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/ebenezer-pastor-criticizes-gingrich-1303603.html

Linda

January 15th, 2012
7:32 pm

What is so revealing is MarkV monitoring this blog for 3 weekend days, keeping it up on a Sunday night, @ 7:05 PM, where he finds no friends. I went on myobama.com a couple of days ago & have been hit up with cookie popups ever since. I believe Mark is a plant from Obama. Obama has plants on every blog. Why not MarkV on this one? And Mark, you are doing a lousy job. You should be fired.

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
7:36 pm

I Report @7:23 pm

You might want to get a brain. Preferably through an exchange with somebody who has used his. Yours would be in great demand as never used.

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
7:44 pm

Linda @7:32 pm

Linda,
You have lost any credibility a long time ago. All you are capable of is attacking me personally and boasting about your education. You have not offered a single reasoned argument against anything I have written, which shows that you are incapable of doing that. Keep up the good work.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 15th, 2012
7:46 pm

Markie- So which obozobot typed that zinger up for ya?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, wow, I’m so impressed, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

td

January 15th, 2012
8:18 pm

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
6:44 pm

I have not lived in a socialist country and have no real life experiences living in such. I get a lot of my real life knowledge from my wife. She grew up in Vietnam during the war and was there when the communist took over. She went from a merchant family lifestyle to being shipped to the country to work in the rice fields. She went from having a private school education to not being allowed to go to school for 5 years.

Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

January 15th, 2012
8:58 pm

MarkV, in your opinion, is the current slate of welfare programs too generous, or not generous enough?
————-

MarkV asked for evidence of his support for the welfare state, then avoids answering a simple question so he doesn’t accidentally provide the evidence for us.

MarkV: Receptacle for Idiot Obozo.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 15th, 2012
9:26 pm

I’d rather become a liberal dummycrat than watch the Green Bay Packers win another Super Bowl and now I don’t have to worry over that #$%@.

Thank you, Eli.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 15th, 2012
9:34 pm

I also wonder how the fruit loop liberals in San Fransikkko are taking this whole NFC Championship ordeal, Candlestick Park will be lit up another time, people will drive to the game, eat greasy food and have fun, shouldn’t you weirdos be, like, really angry about all this?

Linda

January 15th, 2012
9:35 pm

Mark@7:44, I have lost my credibility? In your dreams!
I will not apologize for being proud of my education. I & my parents worked very hard for my goalpost & it has paid off.
You have insulted every conservative on this blog this weekend:
1/13 12:47 “…has some sense…”
1:46 “…ignorance…ignorant…”
3:46 “Again, ignorant display…”
4:34 “,,,If you are able to learn…”
7:53 “…exist only to the ignorant fantasies of people like you…”
8:10 “…people who know how to present falsehoods & stupidities. With your miniscule brainpower you failed to notice…keep your idiocies…”
8:47 “…unable to understand even simple things…people like you who distort…stupid attacks…liars like you…”
8:50 “…distortions & lies…”
9:36: “…your inability to understand…”
Do I need to go on? Read your own insults on your posts. How can you justify being so rude & crude? What are you trying to accomplish? If you are trying to sway people to your agenda, you are wasting your time by insulting them in every way, shape, manner & form. If you are trying to elevate your ego, you might have succeeded, but we are laughing at you all the way to the mirror.
Get a life, get off of this blog or be polite.

getalife

January 15th, 2012
9:38 pm

You worry about silly things Andy.

Huntsman is out.

Sane cons not welcomed in today’s Alice in Wonderland gop.

Are you really going to run that flip flopping lib from Mexico, willard.?

Seriously?

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

January 15th, 2012
9:45 pm

When did Taxachussetts become Mexico, gitmo?

getalife

January 15th, 2012
9:46 pm

willard’s dad was born in Mexico.

So the newt demands to see willard’s papers before the President will.

Was willard born in Mexico like his daddy?

Mmmmmm, better call oily to take it to the SC.

getalife

January 15th, 2012
9:50 pm

Imagine willard with a tan Andy.

He would get pulled over in Arizona and they will ask him for his papers.

Why doesn’t willard promote his Mexican roots Andy?

Get that Latino vote.

Linda

January 15th, 2012
10:16 pm

As I was telling Rafe this morning, I went to the park yesterday. Well, today, I went to the zoo. I was trying to get away from politics, resting there on a picnic table, when I noticed a disturbance in the monkey exhibit. It was liberals insulting the monkeys, calling them “ignorant, unable to learn, irrational, presenting falsehoods & stupidities, having miniscule brainpower & failure to notice, unable to understand even simple things, distortion, stupid attacks, lying,” etc.
The monkeys became irate & were hollering, jumping from limb to limb.
The security guards at the zoo were incensed at the liberals & ordered them to community service by spending the night in the monkey cage. The liberals were ecstatic that they were able to spend the night with their ancestors. By 10:00 PM, there was no sign that the cousins were still in existence. May God rest their souls.

MarkV

January 15th, 2012
10:33 pm

Linda @9:35 pm

What you fail to understand is that when somebody writes something stupid, it is appropriate to call it stupid. When something is a fantasy, it is appropriate to call it a fantasy. Is somebody shows ignorance, then he /she is ignorant. I am always prepared to support my views and expressions with reasoning and have done so, while you have never submitted any intelligent response.

Interestingly, you included “distortions and lie” among the expressions you object to. In your view then, one should tolerate when his statements are distorted, or if somebody has lied. That may be your way, but it is not mine.

I will not take any admonitions form you, who have shown repeatedly your hypocrisy, attacking for impoliteness those whose political views are different, and not those who are on your side. This is not your blog, so do not to tell me to get off it.

Linda

January 15th, 2012
11:27 pm

MarkV@10:33, “What you fail to understand is that when somebody writes something stupid,” you need to refrain from calling them stupid or otherwise, you appear stupid.
“When something is a fantasy, it is appropriate to call it a fantasy,” unless you are stupid.
“If someone shows ignorance, then he/she is ignorant,” unless you show that you are even more ignorant & stupid.
You are neither stupid nor ignorant, but calling others such makes you such.
I wrote about the likes of you yesterday at the park & today at the zoo. You are arrogant to the nth degree & have no reason to be on this blog. All you are doing is exploiting/contaminating the liberal agenda. You are a waste of energy & effort & basically just a waste of a good mind, really pitiful. I feel sorry for you.

Linda

January 15th, 2012
11:39 pm

getalife, If I could not spell, use proper grammar, use proper punctuation, know how to capitalize, etc., I would not come on any blog & show the world how smart (?) I was, unless it was Jay’s, where bodily sounds are symbolic with comments. Why don’t you go over there & f@#t & belch?

GodHatesTrash, Superstar

January 15th, 2012
11:49 pm

How did Turdlacher do today? Oh, that’s right – da Bears went home early like they always do.

GodHatesTrash, Superstar

January 15th, 2012
11:52 pm

Why are the cons on this blog so disgustingly pathetic?

GodHatesTrash, Superstar

January 16th, 2012
12:15 am

Gawd knows that cons in general but especially those on Kyle’s blog suffer from poor cognitive skills, and low IQ has been linked to depression and various anti-social personality disorders.

I will try to have more pity on ya’ll, but good gawd y’all are pitiful.

MarkV

January 16th, 2012
9:38 am

Linda @11:27 pm

Linda, I admit I can’t stand hypocrites like you. And as you have shown in this post, you are incapable of using elementary logic in making an argument or assertion.

Mitt Romney’s real money problem | Kyle Wingfield

January 18th, 2012
11:06 am

[...] commercials with that line — and the campaign so far makes one wonder if there’s any traditional Republican red line they won’t cross — you can bet Obama and the Democrats are already feeding it into [...]

Mitt Romney’s real money problem | Money Fast Online

January 18th, 2012
4:33 pm

[...] campaign commercials with that line — and the campaign so far makes one wonder if there’s any traditional Republican red line they won’t cross — you can bet Obama and the Democrats are already feeding it into their [...]

Poll Position: Who’s right about Romney’s time at Bain?

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Poll Position: Who’s right about Romney’s time at Bain?

388 comments Add your comment

About Kyle Wingfield

Search this blog

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