Poll Position: Who’s right about Romney’s time at Bain?
(Note: Apologies for the late Poll Position today, but I wanted the ethics reform post to be online all day.)
This week has seen one of the more amazing attack lines in any GOP presidential primary. It seems some Republican candidates think Mitt Romney was too much of a capitalist.
Well, that’s not exactly how they’d put it. Texas Gov. Rick Perry (yes, he’s still running, despite barely beating the combination of Buddy Roemer and “total write-ins” in New Hampshire) refers to Romney’s career at Bain Capital as “vulture capitalism,” not venture capitalism. A so-called Super PAC supporting Newt Gingrich produced a 28-minute video titled “When Mitt Romney Came to Town” about a company in South Carolina — the site of the next primary — bought by Bain.
Who's right about Romney's time at Bain Capital?
- Gingrich and Perry (178 Votes)
- Romney and his defenders (95 Votes)
- Who knows? (38 Votes)
Total Voters: 311
Loading ...Their attacks have been lauded by some on the right, and virtually everyone on the left, as an appropriate critique of Romney’s claim to have been a job creator in the private sector and/or a good way to toughen up Romney for the general election against Barack Obama. (I didn’t realize Gingrich and Perry were running for “presidential sparring partner” instead of president.) But Gingrich and Perry have also been fiercely criticized by many on the right for making pandering, un-nuanced attacks on capitalism merely to boost their electoral chances.
Who’s right?
That’s this week’s Poll Position question. Answer in the nearby poll and in the comments thread below.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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388 comments Add your comment
redneckbluedog
January 14th, 2012
11:17 am
If I were Romney I would just show the bottom line of how much money they made for their investors and who those investors were and are. I would talk about all the current retirees and future retirees that have put there trust in his management and how they are now going to have some retirement security due to the efforts he has made. The senior and 50’s vote is a great deal more important then the youth vote.
————————————
He is more likely to just embrace the Ryan budget….which would be a mistake
td
January 14th, 2012
11:28 am
The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!
January 14th, 2012
11:05 am
An how much of what you wrote is against the law? Why did these companies not fully fund those pension plans in the first place? Would you call this poor management? Bottom line is how much money did Bain’s expertise put into the hands of their investors? How much healthier is the CA and TX teachers pension fund? How much more money is now in 401K accounts?
BTW: According to the NYT 78% of the companies Bain has taken over are now in good financial shape so how many jobs did Bain save?
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 14th, 2012
11:31 am
td, please don’t encourage MarkV.
He needs to go over to Bookman’s blog where his rather creepy reliance on out-dated definitions and his inability to accept reality will fit in perfectly.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
11:36 am
When is bad hair bigmouth Trump guy going to come out and demand that Romney release his income tax records?
The reason Romney is balking is of course because he has very good reason to be nervous in the age of Occupy Wall Street. What those records will no doubt show is :
a) that Romney, like Warren Buffett, when he even pays taxes at all, pays a measly capital gains rate and therefore pays a rate almost half what average Americans pay, and
b) he probably rats out on taxes altogether for large portions of his income which are probably parked in off-shore tax shelters of various types.
In other words, Romney is part of the 1% and doesn’t even begin to understand what that means in terms of how out of touch he is with the experiences of average Americans.
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 14th, 2012
11:48 am
Occupation, when you throw out phrases like “how out of touch he is with the experiences of average Americans” when discussing Romney (or other GOP-ers), you DO realize that the current Disaster-in-Chief’s life experiences and upbringing has no bearing on “the experiences of average Americans”, don’t you?
How many people get to go to Harvard, don’t hold a real job, get elected to a state senator position then have their U.S. Senate election handed to them by taking out their competition in smear tactics, and finally get elected to the highest office in the land due to a terrible economy?
There are few elected representatives that understand “the experiences of average Americans”. And to as for being out of touch, they’ve got a corner on that market on BOTH sides of the aisle.
MarkV
January 14th, 2012
11:51 am
td @11:15 am
I will give you a short definition. The essence of socialism is a collective control over the means of production, distribution and exchange. In the classical socialism it means the state ownership of those. With the respect to silly claims like that Germany is a socialist country, the companies like VW, BMW, ThyssenKrupp AG, just to name a few, would be very surprised to learn that they are state-owned.
Speaking of Germany, it has been said that while it is a capitalist country, it has adopted some ideals of socialism. That can be said of most developed countries in the world. For those who point to those and claim that those ideals make people Socialists and countries socialist, I have a simple question and answer. Are you against racism? If you are, then in your way of thinking you are a Socialist, because opposition to racism is one of the ideals of Socialism.
What people confuse most are the terms Socialism, Democratic Socialism, and Social Democracy. As ideologies, those are among the main variants in the world now. Democratic Socialism is a version of Socialism. Social Democracy is not, it is essentially regulated Capitalism, and it is the system in most European countries.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
11:58 am
You’re moving the goalposts, Tiberius.
“..you DO realize that the current Disaster-in-Chief’s life experiences and upbringing has no bearing on “the experiences of average Americans”, don’t you?”
If we’re talking about NOW, as president, then of course, it’s true that Obama’s experiences in no way resemble anything like that of average Americans. But if we look at where they came from, their life backgrounds and experiences, Obama’s experiences are VASTLY closer to that of average Americans than Romney (even though many Americans do not grow up in biracial households or households where one parent is a foreign citizen, though in immigrant melting pots like NY or Miami there are many who do).
He earned is way to Harvard. Why do you have a problem with that? I thought people with your political inclinations were in favor of meritocracy. I don’t know about you, but I think getting to Harvard without growing up in great privilege, but instead because you were bright, is a sign of greater meritocracy and thus a healthy society, as opposed to the direction we’re heading in now where increasingly only the very wealthy are going to the top tier schools.
And I don’t know what you mean about not holding a real job. To come back to Romney, I seriously doubt he’s ever worked a job in his life where he had to lift an object heavier than 50 lbs. or had to wash his hands or couldn’t stroll straight from work to a four star restaurant without changing clothes. One could make the argument therefore that it is he, Romney, who has never worked a ‘real job’.
But on this point: “There are few elected representatives that understand “the experiences of average Americans.”
I couldn’t agree with you more.
“And to as for being out of touch, they’ve got a corner on that market on BOTH sides of the aisle”
No argument here.
MarkV
January 14th, 2012
12:02 pm
Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @11:31 am
You are not creepy, but dishonest and ignorant. You showed that perfectly yesterday first by your attack on me, claiming my admiration and touting of socialist countries. And you showed how little you understand even what you thought you were proving. Because the low unemployment in socialist countries is not any positive aspect or something that might be admired or touted, as you suggested. Unlike the situation in the capitalist countries, where unemployment is an indicator of the health of the economy, in socialist countries it is nothing of the sort. In a purely socialist country (which those four I mentioned are not, but are closest), the economy could be completely collapsing without any unemployment. That is exactly because the state controls the means of production, and therefore controls the employment. Therefore, low unemployment is socialism is merely the result of the lack of economic freedom.
But things like that apparently go way above your silly head.
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 14th, 2012
12:10 pm
Occupation, I have no problem with people earning their way in life, but the current Disaster-in-Chief hasn’t really done that, has he?
In the big scheme of things, neither man has any clue about average Americans. To suggest anything different is to deny reality.
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 14th, 2012
12:14 pm
MarkV, I have given you a pass on questioning my honesty, mainly because I feel sorry for you. However, I’m having a hard time being Mr. Nice Guy when you constantly (and wrongly, as usual for you) keep bringing it up.
Now, I am willing to follow the rules that Kyle has set forth for his blog, even if you are not. I suggest you begin immediately.
If you don’t want your cherished beliefs questioned, no matter how wrong they are, then find your way over to Bookman’s blog and be embraced in the warm blanket of ignorance that thrives there.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
12:15 pm
Tiberius: “Occupation, I have no problem with people earning their way in life, but the current Disaster-in-Chief hasn’t really done that, has he?”
Someone who worked his way up to a position as law professor, seriously?
Again, you keep moving the goalposts, because if there is one person among all the people currently running for president who has manifestly NOT “earned his way” it is clearly Mitt Romney (all of the other GOP contenders clearly HAVE earned their way in the sense that, unlike George W. Bush, they did not simply inherit their elite positions).
So why do you try to smear Barack Obama as not having earned his way and yet let a total silver spoon kid like Mitt Romney off the hook? Why would you do that?
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 14th, 2012
12:31 pm
Occupation, I do not let Romney off the hook at all, as my earlier comments clearly show. Do NOT try to assign beliefs to me that I haven’t stated, OK?
And let’s face it, as far as employment success is concerned Romney has it all over the Disaster-in-Chief. You can’t even measure the success of a “law professor” just out of college, can you? “Community organizer”? What the heck is that? State senator with no significant legislative history who voted “present” more often than not? 2-year U.S. Senator with zero legislative milestones before deciding to run for President. And let’s not even mention the last 3 years.
At least Romney employed people, made money for them, bailed out a floundering Winter Olympics, and successfully ran a state with a legislature in 85% opposition to him.
MarkV
January 14th, 2012
12:33 pm
Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @12:14 pm
If you wanted to know my “cherished beliefs,” you could have checked my post January 13th, 2012 @12:47 pm. What I have written about you is based on facts, not like you do on distortions.
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 14th, 2012
12:38 pm
Yeah, right, MarkV. You have done nothing BUT espouse your love of Socialist programs on this blog. Sorry, but you can’t have your cake and eat it, too.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
12:52 pm
Tiberius: “I do not let Romney off the hook at all, as my earlier comments clearly show”
Fair point, I have not read through the thread. So I retract that, but : “You can’t even measure the success of a “law professor” just out of college, can you?”
First of all, you don’t go into a position of law professor “right out college”. It takes extensive post-graduate work. I consider that work fairly high level and of some importance to society, not something just anybody walks into. .
“Community organizer”? What the heck is that?”
How is it any less valuable to society that corporate raider?
“At least Romney employed people, made money for them”
That has been claimed but hasn’t been established yet. Count me unconvinced.
And as for him “making money for them”, that’s false. He made money for himself and his partners, and NOT for the actual employees of the firms he bought, sold, cannibalized or whatever he did.
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 14th, 2012
1:10 pm
Occupation, you really need to up your reading comprehension skills and lay off the liberal talking points.
Does a community organizer employ people? Don’t know. Do they make others money? Don’t think so, but again, don’t know. In short, what function do they serve in the first scheme of things, which is to survive in a world that requires a job and income?
Oh, and the current Disaster-in-Chief graduated Harvard in 1991 and began teaching constitutional law in 1992. Not exactly extensive post-graduate work, now was there? This guy has been propped up by others from day one.
And Romney AT LEAST employed people at Bain Capital, the Winter Olympics and the Commonwealth Of Massachusetts, and as such, enabled them to make money through their employment. And he certainly made a boatload of money for the principals of Bain Capital and had a 78% success rate at saving / expanding companies during his tenure at Bain.
td
January 14th, 2012
1:26 pm
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
12:52 pm
“At least Romney employed people, made money for them”
“That has been claimed but hasn’t been established yet. Count me unconvinced”
Have you read my post? Go to the CA teachers retirement system website that I linked. It states that Bain has earned the fund more than $165 milion dollars. How many teachers is that going to take care of their retirement for?
Stevie Ray
January 14th, 2012
1:27 pm
Romney’s tenure at Bain saw approximately 150 deal transactions. Of that, the press has only cited 4-5 (one currently in dispute on front of WSJ today….many in SC town have no recollection of plant closing) deals where about 6000 jobs were lost. These are very unfortunate outcomes to be certain….Romney will bury any of those who come out against his position however, as you can’t argue with success of the likes of Staples (90,000 jobs), Sports Authority, Dominoes…granted, other capital and PE firms where involved in these deals. Calling any PE firm out for a few poor outcomes (DDI, AMPAD, Clear Channel, KB Toys), IMP, nothing here speaking of anything beyond talking points that will not be vetted by those against him……
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
1:28 pm
Well my response to you got eaten, Tiberius, which is really too bad.
Apparently for whatever reason, the posting function over here on the Wingfield site is more glitchy and unstable than it is on certain other pages. I don’t know why that would be.
That’s too bad, that response took me 5 minutes to write and I don’t really have time to reconstruct it.
Stevie Ray
January 14th, 2012
1:31 pm
TD,
Good points that will also assist Romney when the timing is right (best timing likely if he wins nomination and BO’s folks attack this issue). Some of the largest investors in Bain included state pension funds, edcuational endowments and the like…can anything be said for these successes that benefit many….Too bad we didn’t invest SS dollars in these funds…oh, I forgot, SS is not funded in it’s entirety so that’s non-starter…
Stevie Ray
January 14th, 2012
1:33 pm
WELCOME,
Who loves ya? Your 12:52 blog is so far off base that you should sell same to the DNC as dumbed down talking points for the ingnorant…sorry but that’s putting it mildly. Still love ya baby but gotta call you out on that one…
MarkV
January 14th, 2012
1:45 pm
Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @12:38 pm: “You have done nothing BUT espouse your love of Socialist programs on this blog. Sorry, but you can’t have your cake and eat it, too.”
You are lying again, just like you lied when you wrote that I had been posting under another name. And then you protest about being called dishonest. Sorry, but you can’t have your cake and eat it, too
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
1:53 pm
td, sure you want to cite a PUBLIC employer pension fund in favor of your great private free market hero Mitt Romney?
My understanding is that these private-equity firms like Bain get vast amounts of their capital from PUBLIC pensions.
Fact: private-equity firms exist to reap huge profits for their owners and their partners, NOT create jobs.
Besides, didn’t CalSTRS go bankrupt?
Stevie Ray, you’ll have to be more specific.
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 14th, 2012
1:57 pm
MarkV, try some psychological help, would you? I never stated that you posted under another name, but that you don’t use your FULL name so that people can’t see how ridiculous your positions really are, thereby saving you from the ridicule of said posts being read by your friends (if you have any) or co-workers.
In short, son, stop being disagreeable for disagreeing’s sake, would you?
Linda
January 14th, 2012
2:01 pm
Welcome@1:53, You said, “Fact: private-equity firms exist to reap huge profits for their owners and their partners, NOT create jobs.”
The fact is that ALL businesses exist to make profits. NO business exists to create jobs. The only exception is non-profit businesses.
td
January 14th, 2012
2:17 pm
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
1:53 pm
td, sure you want to cite a PUBLIC employer pension fund in favor of your great private free market hero Mitt Romney?
My understanding is that these private-equity firms like Bain get vast amounts of their capital from PUBLIC pensions.
Fact: private-equity firms exist to reap huge profits for their owners and their partners, NOT create jobs.
You seem to leave off your “fact” list that they also reap huge amounts of return on investments to the public and private pension firms and to millions of 401K accounts.
How do you think a teacher can in vest only around $100 per month into a retirement account for 30 years and still be able to draw 80 to 90% of their highest years salary for the next 20 to 30 plus years? Social Security buys government bonds and a teacher making $70,000 per year can only expect $1000 per month or about 30%. Now tell us again how evil these private equity firms are?
MarkV
January 14th, 2012
2:18 pm
Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @1:57 pm: “MarkV, try some psychological help, would you? I never stated that you posted under another name, but that you don’t use your FULL name …:
Apparently, you are the one who needs psychological help:
Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! January 13th, 2012,8:23 pm “I realize that it is difficult for certain people to be called out for being just plain wrong in public, which is why you post under another name….”
Hillbilly D
January 14th, 2012
2:19 pm
That’s too bad, that response took me 5 minutes to write and I don’t really have time to reconstruct it.
If you don’t mind a little advice, always copy your post before you hit submit. If it doesn’t go through, then you can send it again and you may get it through, unless of course it tells you it’s a duplicate and you’ve already sent it. In that case, if you’re feeling industrious, you can change a word or two and try again. That may work but then again, it may just be one of those posts that gets lost in cyber-space, never to be seen again. It’s a problem that everybody has been complaining about on the sports and political blogs of AJC, for at least the last couple of years.
The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!
January 14th, 2012
2:21 pm
We may get to see some financials from Mr. Mitt, but rest assured there are scores of accountants and finance types that are right now busy creating phony paper trails and other obfuscations to hide wealth and the source of wealth from even the most astute prying eyes. When people say Mitt hasn’t worked in six years, don’t worry, he’s been spending plenty of time squirreling away money and hiding it from the tax man. For $250M, there are probably at least a dozen trust accounts where funds are hidden, an rest assured Mr. Mitt has plenty of huan he’s holding too.
Through Bain, Mitt bet short on America’s future, a good financial move for him, since he knew that his rich friends would buy up every lobbyist on K street to gut America’s economic future to line their pockets.
He’s slicker than the hair on his head, and slimier than a bucket of santorum.
The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!
January 14th, 2012
2:26 pm
You neo-conjobbers need to know that there are plenty of things that are immoral and unethical that are not illegal, and folks like Mitt have plenty of money to change the laws so they can pirate the hard work of others, and plenty of cash to hire lawyers and liars to drag things out in court if someone calls them on it.
Good gawd, you cons are silly half-wits.
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 14th, 2012
2:31 pm
Gee, MarkV, I didn’t realize your legal name was, in fact, MarkV.
Do you sign your checks that way? I’ll bet it was embarrassing growing up wishing for a vowel or two to add onto the “V”.
No wonder you’re so screwed up in the head.
Linda
January 14th, 2012
2:38 pm
Mr. Trash@2:21, You sound as if Mr. Romney wrote the tax code & might act the same way as US corporations & every taxpayer who is in a high tax bracket. I find it extraordinary that you neglected to mention that GE pays NO taxes, sends jobs overseas but whose CEO is Obama’s jobs czar.
The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!
January 14th, 2012
2:39 pm
One of the signs of a sociopath is telling people what you think they want to hear instead of the truth for your own aggrandizement. Mitt’s flip-flopping is really just pathological lying from a man with no personality and no soul, and no god except Mammon.
Interesting that he follows the religion started by the 19th century’s most accomplished liar and conman.
Old timer
January 14th, 2012
2:40 pm
Obama is a Marxist……he needs to go.
td
January 14th, 2012
2:42 pm
MarkV
January 14th, 2012
11:51 am
If you want to go by the pure form of a definition of socialism then you have a correct analysis of the text book answer. The problem is there are many form of socialism and we do not live in a textbook world. The President is, by his own admission, a social democrat.
” Democratic socialists do not want to create an all-powerful government bureaucracy. But we do not want big corporate bureaucracies to control our society either. Rather, we believe that social and economic decisions should be made by those whom they most affect”
Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than
to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them. Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned
enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives.
Democratic socialists have long rejected the belief that the whole economy should be centrally planned. While we believe that democratic planning can shape major social investments like mass transit, housing, and energy, market mechanisms are needed to determine the demand for many consumer goods”
You can not deny that this is most of the European countries form of government. This is also the believe system of the US progessive movement and Obama. It is not pure socialism but it is a form of socialism and a direction America does not need to be heading in.
The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!
January 14th, 2012
2:46 pm
Well Linda, then that makes it OK, then!
Gawd almighty, you cons are simpletons.
You have the ethical and moral development of 7 year-olds.
“Well one of Obama’s friends does it, so can Mitt.”
“Well he hit me first!”
“Well, everybody else is doing it.”
Yup, no morals, no ethics, and certainly no brains.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
2:46 pm
Hillbilly: “It’s a problem that everybody has been complaining about on the sports and political blogs of AJC, for at least the last couple of years.”
You’re right about backing up a copy. I do just that when I’m dealing with unreliable sites or am having computer problems. For some reason I always forget to do this at the Wingfield site. Funny you mention sports blogs, that’s where I’ve noticed it most, followed by the occasional burp here under Wingfield. But for whatever reason I have never experienced it at Bookman, no idea why that would be.
td
January 14th, 2012
2:56 pm
The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!
January 14th, 2012
2:46 pm
I would much rather support a capitalist like Romney then a socialist like Obama.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
2:56 pm
Old Timer : Obama is a Marxist……he needs to go.
A Marxist, really? This same Obama whose campaign contributions thus far includes the most money from the financial sector to the tune of $17.6 million, from entities such as Centerview Partners, Barclays Capital, MF Global, UBS, Greenstreet and others.
If that’s a Marxist, that’s a strange kind of Marxist who’s obviously so popular among financial interests.
Hillbilly D
January 14th, 2012
2:56 pm
Welcome to the Occupation
I seem to have more trouble at Mark Bradley’s than anywhere but I have had trouble at one time or another with all of them. It makes no sense to me either but computer stuff is over my head, anyway.
Linda
January 14th, 2012
3:05 pm
Mr. Trash@2:46, Out tax code encourages tax dodging. All higher earners & corporations use it to their advantage. There’s no point in singling out one person.
I will not answer any more of your comments directed to me, if you cannot participate in an intellectual discussion. I’m not impressed nor intimidated by personal attacks. They rather show lack of elocution. You may either show respect or talk to yourself.
The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!
January 14th, 2012
3:07 pm
td, pirates are capitalists and Jesus, if there was such a person, was probably a socialist.
Labeling is a way that stupid people compensate for their lack of critical thinking skills.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
3:10 pm
td: “I would much rather support a capitalist like Romney then a socialist like Obama”
Nothing even remotely ’socialist’ about Obama. See my 2:56.
Linda: “The fact is that ALL businesses exist to make profits. NO business exists to create jobs.”
According to WHOM?
I think you’re getting your definitions from people who have a vested interest in having people define the purposes of business that way.
And assuming for the moment that your definition is right, Linda, why are you so docile and willing to accept things as they are? Why are you so forgiving and willing to allow your society to be defined that way, where something as important as the availability of jobs is completely determined by the whims and narrow interests of a small group of owners, where on your own admission the very livelihoods of people (jobs) are in the hands of people with little incentive to care whether any are created, since they’re worried about more important things like enriching themselves? I don’t know about you, but I make greater demands of those who exercise power in our society.
The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!
January 14th, 2012
3:14 pm
Folks, I am not addressing this to anyone in particular, instead I want everyone to know am not here to engage in “intellectual discussion” with half-wits.
I apologize if I led some of you half-wits to think that I was.
td
January 14th, 2012
3:15 pm
The One, The Only, The Amazing GodHatesTrash!
January 14th, 2012
3:07 pm
You are the ones throwing the names and labels around. I just made the logical comparison and now you attempt to make (one of the generalizations you purport to reject) towards people that label others.
MarkV
January 14th, 2012
3:15 pm
Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate! @ 2:31 pm
You got caught in a lie, and now you are trying to weasel out. Anybody can check the facts. Let’s repeat. You had written, “… you post under another name.” Later you wrote, “I never stated that you posted under another name…” A lie. And you claimed in the latter post that you had written, “… but that you don’t use your FULL name.” You had not written that. A lie again.
Incidentally, is Tiberius your full name, is that how you sign checks?
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
3:16 pm
Hillbilly D: “I seem to have more trouble at Mark Bradley’s”
Same here. So it’s clearly not just our imagination
td
January 14th, 2012
3:24 pm
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
3:10 pm
td: “I would much rather support a capitalist like Romney then a socialist like Obama”
Nothing even remotely ’socialist’ about Obama. See my 2:56.
Your post at 2:56 proves nothing at all. Read my post at 2:42 and come back and try to deny that the definition does not fit Obama to a tee? The social democratic (progressive movement in the US) is a hybrid form of socialism and Obama is a socialist. Why do Obama supports want keep denying the truth instead of defending the philosophy? Are you ashamed of supporting a socialist?
MarkV
January 14th, 2012
3:29 pm
td @2:42 pm
This is not a question of purity of a definition. There is a fundamental difference between socialism and social democracy. Socialism is one economic system, as I wrote, the essential core of which, what makes socialism socialism, is about who own the means of production etc. There are socialists in the Europe as well as elsewhere, who advocate it. Social democrats do not. I have not denied that ”this is most of the European countries form of government.” In fact, that is what I stated. I should have added, also, that there are many variations of the social democracy, even among the member of the EU. For that same reason, it is a very silly argument that there is some specific direction (according to the critics), in which the US is heading. Where the US is heading will be decided by the people of this country, and it does not have to be anything like what exists anywhere else.
Incidentally, those who attack social democracy are in a “good company.” Karl Marx vehemently opposed it.
Welcome to the Occupation
January 14th, 2012
3:32 pm
td, sure, I see your point, but the passage you cite starting “We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them. Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned” is not from Obama’s own hand. And if it had been, one would be justified in attacking him for governing in complete indifference to his own stated principles.
So in reality, I find I’m very skeptical of any definition of him as a socialist. But of course of you define him as “social democrat”, even that tradition has long been committed to markets and capitalism more than to a strict interpretation of Marxist principles. Am I wrong?