Poll Position: Who’s right about Romney’s time at Bain?
(Note: Apologies for the late Poll Position today, but I wanted the ethics reform post to be online all day.)
This week has seen one of the more amazing attack lines in any GOP presidential primary. It seems some Republican candidates think Mitt Romney was too much of a capitalist.
Well, that’s not exactly how they’d put it. Texas Gov. Rick Perry (yes, he’s still running, despite barely beating the combination of Buddy Roemer and “total write-ins” in New Hampshire) refers to Romney’s career at Bain Capital as “vulture capitalism,” not venture capitalism. A so-called Super PAC supporting Newt Gingrich produced a 28-minute video titled “When Mitt Romney Came to Town” about a company in South Carolina — the site of the next primary — bought by Bain.
Who's right about Romney's time at Bain Capital?
- Gingrich and Perry (178 Votes)
- Romney and his defenders (95 Votes)
- Who knows? (38 Votes)
Total Voters: 311
Loading ...Their attacks have been lauded by some on the right, and virtually everyone on the left, as an appropriate critique of Romney’s claim to have been a job creator in the private sector and/or a good way to toughen up Romney for the general election against Barack Obama. (I didn’t realize Gingrich and Perry were running for “presidential sparring partner” instead of president.) But Gingrich and Perry have also been fiercely criticized by many on the right for making pandering, un-nuanced attacks on capitalism merely to boost their electoral chances.
Who’s right?
That’s this week’s Poll Position question. Answer in the nearby poll and in the comments thread below.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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388 comments Add your comment
UGA 1999
January 13th, 2012
1:49 pm
Carlos,….if you are confused on Socialism…read Obama’s book, he lays it all out.
td
January 13th, 2012
1:50 pm
MarkV
January 13th, 2012
1:46 pm
“call Obama and everybody who disagrees with them a Socialist”
By Obama’s own words admits that he is a European democratic socialist.
td
January 13th, 2012
2:03 pm
Bart Abel
January 13th, 2012
1:48 pm
td,
.
“The debate is about ethics and fairness and right and wrong. So I’m talking about whether a law that doesn’t exist, should exist. ”
Whose ethical code did Bain break? Did they break their ethical duty to their investors? Are millions of teachers in CA and TX retirement funds not in better shape today then prior to them investing their money with Bain?
What “Fairness” are you talking about? The question comes down to do corporations exist to take care of people and to provide people with jobs or do they exist to maximise profits and give the largest return possible to their investors?
I try not to invest my hard earned money in companies that do not want to give me the biggest return on my investment. If your community bank wants to pay you 5% interest for you to put your money in savings and Bank of America is currently paying you 2% then where do you want to put your money? Now you do know that when you take your money out of BOA then a person is going to get fired and lose their pension. What happens if you currently own a Ford, you do your research and decide a KIA is the best investment for you when you go buy a new car. That $30,000 decision you just made cost a person at Ford there job.
Dusty
January 13th, 2012
2:10 pm
Mark V
So every conservative names EVERY “social program” as socialism? Really?
Maybe so. For good reason. I would call ObamaCare socialistic and overtaxing the rich to provide for others as socialistic and taking almost one half of most mid level worker’s pay for the government as socialistic and the owning of former private companies by government as socialistic and the list goes on.
Why do you think the free thinking American who demands less government in their lives and work are misnaming the efforts of a growing invasive government as socialistic? It is simply calling the encroaching catastrophe of socialism for what it is.
td
January 13th, 2012
2:15 pm
Mark V
Obama’s own written words:
“I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists and punk-rock performance poets.” – Barack Obama (Dreams of My Father)
“Political discussions, the kind at Occidental had once seemed so intense and purposeful, came to take on the flavor of the socialist conferences I sometimes attended at Cooper Union” – Barack Obama (Dreams of My Father)
1961_Xer
January 13th, 2012
2:30 pm
carlosgvv: “The only solution is for American voters to replace it with Socialism. ”
Which would you prefer: the Greek socialist system, China, North Korea, Cuba, or maybe like the old Soviet Union?
Odis
January 13th, 2012
2:31 pm
Let’s debate this part of Romney’s career at Bain….
So not only did Mitt Romney ask for a federal bailout—he received one. And unlike loan guarantees, Romney sought—and received—the equivalent of cold hard cash. Romney apologists will say that the FDIC is funded by financial transaction fees, but taxpayers provided the backstop, and even though Bain & Co. went on to make millions more in profits, the fund was never replenished.
That’s not the only bailout in Romney’s past, however. When a steel mill backed by Bain collapsed, not only was the entire workforce out of a job, but the federal government was on the hook to the tune of $44 million to bail out the mill’s pension plan. Bain, however, made nearly $10 million on the deal, profiting handsomely from failure.
Kyle Wingfield
January 13th, 2012
2:33 pm
Bart @ 12:49: “…Warren Buffet (a company that most admire)…”
Aha! See, corporations are people!
Bart Abel
January 13th, 2012
2:33 pm
td,
Unfortunately, your assertion seems to be that maximizing profits at any cost, within the existing law (now new laws please), is always rational. Unfortunately, that’s a common attitude. It’s also one that I don’t agree with.
If I can get higher returns from a company that operates either unlawfully OR unethically, then I’m still likely to avoid investing in that company (not always easy with mutual funds), regardless of the fact that, by doing so, I’m not maximizing my personal return on my investments.
In addition, I’m likely to write a letter to my elected representatives asking them to pass a law since, I believe, such operators are struggling with their personal ethics (no different then asking for stop signs on your street where people drive too fast among children on big wheels and tricycles).
There isn’t a conservative voter or Republican voter I’ve met that hasn’t sought limits on the activities of businesses at one time or another (zoning dispute fall under this category), even when doing so might prevent the business from otherwise “maximizing profits”.
All laws are derived from the ethics of our society, and laws restricting businesses such that they operate fairly and in accordance with society’s collective will are, in fact, consistent with free markets.
UGA 1999
January 13th, 2012
2:34 pm
“Spike Lee to host an Obama fundraiser”…..IMAGINE THAT!! SHOCKER!!! HAHA
Bart Abel
January 13th, 2012
2:35 pm
I stand corrected…
Berkshire Hathaway (a company that most admire)…
1961_Xer
January 13th, 2012
2:36 pm
td wrote “By Obama’s own words admits that he is a European democratic socialist.”
And, perusing the headlines of Europe today, that is better….. HOW? The European democratice socialist systems are failing. Germany aside, it is a fairly European socialists have failed. If you take the extract US rebuilding of Germany after WWII, the U.S. protection of the entire continent after WWII (which, BTW, is the only reason their socialist systems have lasted this long, and is a contributer to our own debt), and the fact that Germany’s economic health came at the expense of their European trading partners, then Germany fails as well. There is very little to admire there
UGA 1999
January 13th, 2012
2:36 pm
Bart……nice backstep.
UGA 1999
January 13th, 2012
2:38 pm
1961…..I agree.
1961_Xer
January 13th, 2012
2:46 pm
Capitalism is not perfect. For example, that is why we have laws against monopolies. Capitalism in its purest form would allow the select few to control the means of production. So modern “capitalists” prefer to enact laws to balance the system, rather than take directly from some and give directly to others.
Socialism takes from some (who may very well deserve the fruits of their labor) and gives to others (who may very well have never worked an honest day in their lives). That kind of soul numbing discourages anyone from producing at their maximum, and encourages competitive “need”. Pretty soon, everyone is simply doing the bare minimum that they need to to get by, as there is no incentive to do anything more.
JF McNamara
January 13th, 2012
2:49 pm
I wrote:
“It is what it is. He is essentially Gordon Gekko, and he is unapologetic about it. He flip flops on everything, but he hasn’t flip flopped on this. That’s not illegal, but is he the person you want running the United States?”
To be clear, I didn’t have a problem with what he did or him being unapologetic about it. Pumping and dumping stocks, LBOs and salvage sales are part of life.
I’m just not sure I want a President who would do those things though. That’s my point. Its a cold person who would buy a company with the express purpose of firing everyone with no regard to their future. Its a cold person who will pump a stock up, dump it, and leave others holding the bag.
A CEO of a company in most businesses takes care of his employees and looks out for the well being of the company in the future. That’s Presidential. A “Creative Destroyer” has a completely different psychology.
Jack McFarland
January 13th, 2012
3:02 pm
“Why do you think the free thinking American who demands less government in their lives and work…”
Dusty, those people don’t exist. They want government intrusion or else the Terry Shiavo situation wouldn’t have happened, we wouldn’t have to vote whether to buy alcohol on Sundays, debate about gay marriage, or debate about abortion.
Republicans want to control our personal lives, and Democrats want to control our finances.
Linda
January 13th, 2012
3:10 pm
So, Romney was a company organizer & Obama was a community organizer. Romney did it for profit (like ALL businesses). Never did figure out why Obama did it.
How did we ever end up with a community organizer in the White House? For that matter, how did a community organizer ever make it to the Ill. legislature?
In all my born days, I’ve never even met a community organizer. Never heard of anyone wanting to grow up to be one.
MarkV
January 13th, 2012
3:13 pm
td @2:15 pm: “Obama’s own written words:
“I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists and punk-rock performance poets.” – Barack Obama (Dreams of My Father)
“Political discussions, the kind at Occidental had once seemed so intense and purposeful, came to take on the flavor of the socialist conferences I sometimes attended at Cooper Union” – Barack Obama (Dreams of My Father)”
Not a single piece of evidence that Obama is a Socialist.
MarkV
January 13th, 2012
3:14 pm
Dusty @2:10 pm
You can call “socialistic” whatever you want, it is a free country. But that does not make socialistic what is not.
Dusty
January 13th, 2012
3:16 pm
awwwwww… Why did I do it? Why? Why? I just looked at Luckovich’s cartoon for today. He is comparing ROMNEY to Madoff!! MADOFF!
Will AJC ever lose its preference for leftwing cartoonists and others? Silly question.
Oh well ,I will just wander over and take a peek at the Smoltz mansion and its golf course, etc. for sale. He is really really RICH !!! ( I left off “evil” because Smotzie got rich throwing a ball and not capitalism!)
Anyway, you can pick up this little beauty for only 7.2 million. Better hurry. Another rich Democrat will buy it right away.
Dusty
January 13th, 2012
3:25 pm
Mark V,
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so it is in politics. I see socialism and you see good governance.
Have you been to your opthamologist lately?
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 13th, 2012
3:27 pm
Bart Abel, maybe you missed it in school or something, but life doesn’t come with guarantees.
A .780 batting average in ANYTHING is something to be proud of.
Old Timer
January 13th, 2012
3:31 pm
I used to have a boss—a rabid Republican—who would tell anybody who would listen that he was doing people a favor by firing them. His rationale was that people not living up to his expectations were obviously unhappy in their jobs and needed a little nudge to go out and find a job that would make them happier.
Sounds like a lot of the arguments I’m seeing about Romney’s tenure at Bain—he was just trying to save the company, it’s better that a few get fired than that the company go under, that’s the way capitalism works, etc.
Odis
January 13th, 2012
3:37 pm
@ 1961_Xer , you point out that European style socialist governments are failing, but isn’t the US style of capitalism also failing us?
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 13th, 2012
3:39 pm
It’s amazing how libs and Perry / Gingrich supporters are so scared of Mitt Romney. He has the one quality that no other candidate in this race, the current Disaster-in-Chief included, has.
The ability to work with the opposition party.
He lived it in Massachusetts, a state where the legislature was 85% Democrats (and flaming liberal Democrats, to boot), and got things done.
He’d put this current President to shame in the first year.
UGA 1999
January 13th, 2012
3:39 pm
Odis…no, the US style of capitalism has created the strongest government and economy the world has ever known. Just because we are in a slump doesnt mean the entire thing is bad.
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 13th, 2012
3:40 pm
“but isn’t the US style of capitalism also failing us?”
In what way, Odis?
clyde
January 13th, 2012
3:45 pm
A businessman is simply a person with a license to steal.
Substitute the word woman or person after business if the word businessman offends you.
I voted “who knows”?
MarkV
January 13th, 2012
3:46 pm
1961_Xer @2:36 pm: “The European democratice socialist systems are failing. “
Again, ignorance at display. The European countries do not have “democratice [sic]socialist systems.”
Bart Abel
January 13th, 2012
3:51 pm
Bart Abel, maybe you missed it in school or something, but life doesn’t come with guarantees. A .780 batting average in ANYTHING is something to be proud of.
Anything?
A .780 “batting average” in school is a C on your report card. You can feel proud about such grades if you want, but they’re evidence that you’re the one who missed something in school.
MarkV
January 13th, 2012
3:54 pm
Dusty @3:25 pm:
Dusty, your attempt to sound witty is backfiring. The first part, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so it is in politics,” does not even make any sense. As for the second part, “I see socialism and you see good governance,” words like “socialism” have their specific meaning. If you use them without regard to what they mean, no rational discussion is possible.
gm
January 13th, 2012
3:56 pm
Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate!
Before you talk stupid, go look at Obama record in 3 years compared with this flip flop:
Mit opposed raising the minimum wage while gov of Mass, the man is worth 250 million, do you think he cares about middle class white America, what a bunch of naive idiots.
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 13th, 2012
4:00 pm
Uh, gm?
Raising the minimum wage KILLS jobs. And always low-income jobs of the very people YOU claim to support and wish to look out for.
Try Econ 101 next time.
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 13th, 2012
4:03 pm
Bart Abel, a .780 batting average on a test you’re supposed to know the answers to is still a passing grade, and almost a B.
Do that in life, running a business when you DON’T KNOW ALL the answers, is a winning record in anyone’s book but yours.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
January 13th, 2012
4:04 pm
What would kookman know about ethics?
~~~~~
Why would this question even need to be asked by a supposedly Conservative columnist?
Oh yeah, cause of all the dimwit socialists that infest this blog.
I forgot.
Dusty
January 13th, 2012
4:05 pm
MarkV @3:46
Again, arrogance on display. If you have to correct us from your high perch in thin air, please list your defense of said arrogance. Thank you.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
January 13th, 2012
4:09 pm
Political ideology in the U.S. held steady in 2011, with 40% of Americans continuing to describe their views as conservative, 35% as moderate, and 21% as liberal.-Gallup
It seems like there are more weirdos out there but I guess it’s only 21%.
huh
td
January 13th, 2012
4:19 pm
gm
January 13th, 2012
3:56 pm
Tiberius – Your lightning rod of hate!
Before you talk stupid, go look at Obama record in 3 years compared with this flip flop:
Mit opposed raising the minimum wage while gov of Mass, the man is worth 250 million, do you think he cares about middle class white America, what a bunch of naive idiots
Who makes minimum wage? What skill set does it take to only make minimum wage?
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 13th, 2012
4:20 pm
The problem, IR/YW, is that too many liberals don’t think they are, and call themselves moderates.
MarkV
January 13th, 2012
4:22 pm
Dusty @4:05 pm: “MarkV @3:46. Again, arrogance on display. If you have to correct us from your high perch in thin air, please list your defense of said arrogance. Thank you.”
I humbly admit my shortcomings, in this case my inability to understand your post. Would you please explain what arrogance you have in mind? Is it arrogant for me to point out when a post addressed to me does not make sense? Thank you kindly.
Michael H. Smith
January 13th, 2012
4:23 pm
obumer now a small government conservative? Do wonders ever cease: rethink, reform, consolidate departments/agencies blah blah blah.
To late obozo, America knows you are a big government socialist to your core Marxist re-distributive beliefs. No need to talk like a limited government capitalist now when you see the election getting closer and you are too far extreme left of center to win.
Tiberius - Your lightning rod of hate!
January 13th, 2012
4:25 pm
You’re not arrogant, MarkV.
Just in denial regarding democratic European Socialism . . .
Michael H. Smith
January 13th, 2012
4:26 pm
News flash: Perry, Gingrich and company lose fight to get on Virginia ballot.
Dusty
January 13th, 2012
4:31 pm
I Report,
Have pity on those 21 percenters who are true liberals. They can only vote for Obama while holding their noses over his term in office.. No choice for the party loyalists.
On the other hand, conservatives are artfully choosing the pick of the lot from a fine group of candidates. How pleasing it is to go to the polls with a chosen man of the people on the ticket.
MarkV
January 13th, 2012
4:34 pm
Tiberius @4:25 pm
It is not a question of denial. It is a question of meaning and definition. If you are able to learn, perhaps you will find that “Democratic Socialism”(which does exist as a theory) is a wrong term for the European systems. But I won’t be holding my breath.
MarkV
January 13th, 2012
4:40 pm
Dusty @4:31 pm
You have a fine talent for satire. That second paragraph is exquisite. Congratulations.
Linda
January 13th, 2012
4:40 pm
Milton Friedman was an American economist, statistician, academic, author & recipient of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences. He believed in a free market economic system with little intervention by govt. He was recognized as the 2nd most popular economist of the 20th century (behind Keynes) & the “most influential economist of the 2nd half of the 20th century…possibly all of it.”
He was a reformed Keynesian, Keynesian economics being the theory that govt. can play a significant role during recessions by increasing demand by stimulating the economy with money (even borrowed money). Keynesian economics is the plan that the US has been following since ‘08, with one stimulus plan after the other, with one bailout after the other, with one home foreclosure plan after the other, with one private company takeover after the other, etc. Keynesian economists claim that the reason unemployment is still high is that the fed. govt. has just not spent enough money, that the $1 T stimulus bill in 2/09 was just not big enough.
Here are multiple videos of Friedman & his views on capitalism, socialism, greed, spreading the wealth, soaking the rich, fairness, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjH4QBSwWlg
Dusty
January 13th, 2012
4:42 pm
MarkV
When you accuse others of ignorance more than once, you need to explain why you feel that way.
The arrogance is your attempt to downgrade many who post here. Look it up in the dictionary before you tell me you don’t understand arrogance.
Dusty
January 13th, 2012
4:50 pm
Thank you, Mark V, but my 4:31 was not satire. Noooo! It was a joyful report of a conservative voter.
Wish you could “feel ” the joy, but I understand your inabilities. Poor liberals just don’t have any choice. So sorry…