HOT lanes reversal reflects lack of vision, leadership for transportation in Georgia
If there’s one thing I’m sick of hearing, it’s that metro Atlanta and Georgia have no “plan B” for transportation. That’s because, increasingly, there’s no “plan A,” either.
The latest example is the Department of Transportation’s decision this past week to abort the optional toll lanes on I-75 and I-575 in Cobb and Cherokee.
Some 200,000 commuters travel that corridor daily. The stretch of 75 between the 575 split and the top-end perimeter is one of the most congested highways in metro Atlanta. Yet, here’s what those commuters will have to show for years of DOT planning for toll lanes and the politicized exercise of drafting a project list for next year’s transportation tax referendum:
Jack. And squat.
A real plan for the corridor — and most of what I’m about to say also applies to other parts of the metro area — would:
a) Recognize there is neither the land nor the money available for building highway lanes ad infinitum, and that new general-purpose lanes quickly become as full as the older lanes;
b) Acknowledge the final piece of the Interstate portion of the corridor comprises high-occupancy toll (HOT) lanes that may or may not relieve congestion in older lanes, but which will guarantee someone who needs to travel rapidly at a given time can do so (for a price);
c) Devote more resources to nearby arterial roads to add parallel capacity for motorists, particularly those traveling relatively shorter distances;
d) Ensure any funds for mass transit are dedicated to uses such as commuter rail, which can provide high capacity at peak travel times without attempting to change lifestyles or prioritize developers’ dreams over commuters’ frustrations.
As of today, Cobb and Cherokee residents stand to get no additional general-purpose lanes, no HOT lanes, no enhanced arterials. Just some projects designed to encourage a certain kind of economic development — somewhere else. Oh, and, in about 10 years, a glorified streetcar that travels one mile outside Fulton.
It’s particularly galling that DOT has now spent eight years and tens of millions of dollars clearing its throat regarding public-private partnerships. Now it’s thrown all that away, without betraying the faintest clue as to what comes next.
The coup de grace came from DOT board member Brandon Beach, who told the AJC’s Ariel Hart that a turning point was the realization the state might have to pay up to 45 percent of the project’s $1 billion cost.
“There gets a point where if you’re going to do that much public participation, you may want to look at doing the project yourself,” Beach said, right before admitting DOT doesn’t have that kind of money.
Let’s get this straight: $450 million is too much money, so it’s better to spend $1 billion? A billion dollars we don’t have? So that we can recoup money from tolls instead of … not spending it in the first place?
For, if the private firms felt they couldn’t recoup more than $550 million in costs from tolls, why should we believe the state would recoup more? As it stands, fat chance of enticing them or other firms to invest in our infrastructure in the future.
We often hear politicians and experts say voters must approve the T-SPLOST so that metro Atlanta isn’t seen as backward and indecisive. After these follies, on the heels of the broken promise to remove the Ga. 400 toll last summer, maybe voters need to reject it — to get the attention of those politicians and experts. Their decisiveness and vision leave a lot to be desired, too.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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320 comments Add your comment
mountain man
December 19th, 2011
6:18 am
What they should do is put a transportation tax on every business that builds in the downtown area (or any other too-populated area). This tax would go to extending MARTA rails out to where their employees need them i.e up the 75 corridor. This would also discourage builder from building YET another skyscraper in downtown to add to the traffic problems. Bring the jobs to the peopls; don’t make people commute downtown to the jobs.
Michael H. Smith
December 19th, 2011
7:04 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
3:13 am
A few things to keep in mind about “Public” mass transit: “Public” mass transit fares are intentionally held below TRUE COSTS: That partially answers why no or very little public private mass transit ventures are in the mobility marketplace. Under capitalism you must make profits. Under socialism authored by government you can lose money continually and pass all those loses onto the backs of the taxpayers.
Even with ridiculously highly over subsidized fares where the riders pay far less than half in some cases or less in other cases to use “Public” mass transit, it is not supported by the majority of Americans.
Public mass transit needs excuses, not only subsidies in order to survive: The argument or excuse to justify the money losing venture of Public mass transit most often used is that buses will take cars off the road, which supposedly translates into needing building fewer roads. Yeah, I know… but try not to laugh as hard as I do when reading that hogwash.
Example: In my county we have a bus system where so few ride the darn things those buses are only taking up more road space instead of saving it, all at greater taxpayer expense. And, the only reason we got those buses… drum roll please… was to get Ga Hwy 20 south of Larry town widened by one lane for a short distance as a result from a “buses-for-asphalt” deal made with Ole King Roy E. Barnes. Well, I can tell you those buses wastefully take up more asphalt than we received from that deal.
Private and Private public mass transit system ventures can work but these entities can’t compete with or against money losing by design socialist government welfare transit schemes.
PS. CSX and Norfolk Southern are part of future planning in the State transit picture. I’ll go with them any day of the week before something as stupid and socialist as a MARTA that is trying to reinvent-rebuilding the railroad – Kind of like, reinventing-rebuilding the wheel
DUH!
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
7:40 am
Michael H. Smith
December 19th, 2011
7:04 am
“A few things to keep in mind about “Public” mass transit: “Public” mass transit fares are intentionally held below TRUE COSTS: That partially answers why no or very little public private mass transit ventures are in the mobility marketplace. Under capitalism you must make profits. Under socialism authored by government you can lose money continually and pass all those loses onto the backs of the taxpayers.”
Unfortunately, that is so very true. It seems that many of these public transit agencies don’t even seem to care about providing high-quality service on a consistent basis (and they definitely DON’T care about making a profit), but only about existing just for the purpose of collecting a paycheck sometimes.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:36 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
“The Georgia General Assembly would rather run through [Heck] with gasoline drawers on than to have to face their conservative base in a [GOP] primary after voting to raise taxes.”
Oh I get it, you’re a simpleton who thinks that Republicans never raise taxes and Democrats always raise taxes.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:38 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
2:47 am
Poor riders in Washington D.C. benefit greatly from the increased level of service that $5 and $6 dollar peak-hour one-way fares help to provide.
Yes, I’m sure raising fares has greatly helped the working poor.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:44 pm
Michael H. Smith
December 19th, 2011
7:04 am
Private and Private public mass transit system ventures can work but these entities can’t compete with or against money losing by design socialist government welfare transit schemes.
You should be embarrassed to post things this simple. You whine about public transit being subsidized (as if the mean ol gubbamint is just trying to stymie the private sector), but you never complain about highway improvements being gigantic subsidies for trucking companies, airports being subsidies for airlines, and port expansions handouts to shipping companies.
There’s never been a public transit system anywhere that’s turned a profit–in that sense, they’re like the interstates. Gigantic money losers–but of course you wouldn’t dare whine about that. They serve a public good by reducing congestion and decreasing reliance on gasoline, plus they reduce emissions. But you think its socialism because you only have a child’s grasp and knowledge of the subject.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:45 pm
PS. CSX and Norfolk Southern are part of future planning in the State transit picture. I’ll go with them any day of the week before something as stupid and socialist as a MARTA that is trying to reinvent-rebuilding the railroad – Kind of like, reinventing-rebuilding the wheel
DUH!
They’re not willfully in the picture. Freight railroads want as little to do with passenger service as they possibly can. God, if only you morons knew anything about the railroad industry…
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:47 pm
mountain man
December 19th, 2011
6:18 am
What they should do is put a transportation tax on every business that builds in the downtown area (or any other too-populated area). This tax would go to extending MARTA rails out to where their employees need them i.e up the 75 corridor. This would also discourage builder from building YET another skyscraper in downtown to add to the traffic problems. Bring the jobs to the peopls; don’t make people commute downtown to the jobs.
Better yet implement a congestion pricing system (a user fee), similar to the one in London. As soon as you enter a prescribed zone, you pay a fee to use the roads in that zone based on congestion and the length of time you stay in the zone. Then the suburbanites wi,l start paying the true costs of commuting into the city–some of them, anyway.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:49 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
3:13 am
But we’ve already been waiting a very long time for effective mass transit (and better roads) to be built and run by a highly-dysfunctional and incompetent public sector, so what’s the difference? Either way we’re going to likely continue to wait.
Earlier you said MARTA was a model system for public transportation, and now you’re saying it is dysfunctional, can you explain that? How do you arrive at dysfunctional? And is it possible that MARTA isn’t really dysfunctional, but rather the victim of being underfunded?
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:56 pm
Michael H. Smith
December 19th, 2011
7:04 am
A few things to keep in mind about “Public” mass transit: “Public” mass transit fares are intentionally held below TRUE COSTS: That partially answers why no or very little public private mass transit ventures are in the mobility marketplace. Under capitalism you must make profits. Under socialism authored by government you can lose money continually and pass all those loses onto the backs of the taxpayers.
It’s funny when knuckle-dragging hillbillies like Michael H. Smith think they’re smart.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:59 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
7:40 am
Unfortunately, that is so very true. It seems that many of these public transit agencies don’t even seem to care about providing high-quality service on a consistent basis (and they definitely DON’T care about making a profit), but only about existing just for the purpose of collecting a paycheck sometimes.
Again with the reactionary myopia. Not everything that serves the public turns a profit, nor is it a good idea to make every social service for profit. There was a time when police and fire services were privatized, but hundreds of years ago governments and people realized that making them public entities better served their cities and regions. It’s like you want to take us all back centuries ago to a bizarre libertarian helltopia that never actually existed.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
6:59 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
2:47 am
“Poor riders in Washington D.C. benefit greatly from the increased level of service that $5 and $6 dollar peak-hour one-way fares help to provide.”
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:38 pm
“Yes, I’m sure raising fares has greatly helped the working poor.”
Higher fares have greatly benefitted the working poor, actually.
Without the increased level of service that the higher fares help to provide (more frequent trains and buses with shorter headways, earlier start times, later end times, more geographical coverage, etc) the working poor wouldn’t be able to get to work and other appointments and wouldn’t have even the slightest chance of not remaining the working poor.
The transit-dependent working poor can’t remain working if the buses and trains don’t run.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
7:27 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
7:40 am
“Unfortunately, that is so very true. It seems that many of these public transit agencies don’t even seem to care about providing high-quality service on a consistent basis (and they definitely DON’T care about making a profit), but only about existing just for the purpose of collecting a paycheck sometimes.”
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:59 pm
“Again with the reactionary myopia. Not everything that serves the public turns a profit”
Well, DUH! You’ve obviously mastered the art of stating the obvious
“nor is it a good idea to make every social service for profit. There was a time when police and fire services were privatized, but hundreds of years ago governments and people realized that making them public entities better served their cities and regions.”
This isn’t about police and fire service (which, by the way, is paid for with property taxes, on the off chance that you didn’t know) or even water, electric or gas service (which DOES aim to make profits, also just-in-case that you didn’t know).
This is about public transportation service, in Metro Atlanta, which, I don’t know if you have quite noticed, seems to be struggling by not aiming to make a profit or at the very least aiming to break even by refusing to collect more at the farebox to fund better service in lieu of revenue streams, funded by increased taxes, from both state and local governments that are coming anytime soon, if ever.
“It’s like you want to take us all back centuries ago to a bizarre libertarian helltopia that never actually existed.”
Actually, I’d like to take us forward to an era where there is very frequent train bus service with very low headways and much larger geographical coverage, an increased high level of service that cannot come into being with minimal fares of $2.50 one-way no matter how long the trip and minimal revenues from a paltry 1% sales tax.
If I’ve got to pay $6 one-way like on the D.C. Metro or even $11.00 one-way like on BART in Northern California, then I and most upper class, middle class and working poor would much rather pay it and be able to get there sooner than pay $2.50 one-way and get there later or not all.
None of us can get there if fares and revenues don’t cover the cost of the service that this town desperately needs to survive and keep moving forward.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
8:09 pm
mountain man
December 19th, 2011
6:18 am
What they should do is put a transportation tax on every business that builds in the downtown area (or any other too-populated area). This tax would go to extending MARTA rails out to where their employees need them i.e up the 75 corridor. This would also discourage builder from building YET another skyscraper in downtown to add to the traffic problems. Bring the jobs to the peopls; don’t make people commute downtown to the jobs.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:47 pm
“Better yet implement a congestion pricing system (a user fee), similar to the one in London. As soon as you enter a prescribed zone, you pay a fee to use the roads in that zone based on congestion and the length of time you stay in the zone. Then the suburbanites wi,l start paying the true costs of commuting into the city–some of them, anyway.”
Not necessarily the way that I might do it, but the state looks to want to go maybe a few steps further by wanting to use congestion pricing on major roads in both the city and suburbs.
As of now, the state (still) has plans on the books to put tolls on all radial freeways going into and out of the city, except I-85 South outside of I-285 and Hwy 78 East/Stone Mountain Freeway as part of a proposed network of HOT lanes that will cost (at least) $16.2 billion dollars and cover 285 miles of freeway across North Georgia.
The proposed HOT lane network includes plans to place tolls and HOV-3 restrictions on at least two existing lanes of the Downtown Connector and plans to eventually have tolls and HOV-3 restrictions on up to THREE lanes on each direction of I-85 North in DeKalb and Gwinnett Counties where the recent conversion of the HOV-2 lane to an HOV-3/HOT lane has caused such an uproar in Northeast Metro Atlanta.
Something that may particularly make you Intown transit advocates happy is that the reason why the state is attempting to place tolls on existing lanes is to push motorists, in particular single-occupant vehicle or SOV motorists, off of the freeways and on future mass transit lines that are proposed to run parallel to those freeways into, out of and around the city and metro area.
The state wants to push SOV motorists to either carpool or take one of the many future commuter rail, light rail, heavy rail, bus rapid transit, express bus (and streetcar lines) as a way to clear the interstates to allow for the coming massive increase in already very heavy freight truck traffic that is expected to coincide with the expansion of the Port of Savannah later this decade.
http://dot.ga.gov/informationcenter/programs/studies/managedlanes/Documents/Corridor%20Evaluations%20and%20Recommendations.pdf
Using congestion pricing and putting tolls on existing lanes is unnecessarily as most Metro Atlantans are already very aware that the traffic that they drive in everyday is very bad and would likely jump at the opportunity to utilize improved mass transit options at this degenerative point.
Congestion pricing is not needed to push commuters onto mass transit as just mere having the increased options available is all the motivation that Metro Atlantans need to use it.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
9:10 pm
Michael H. Smith
December 19th, 2011
7:04 am
Private and Private public mass transit system ventures can work but these entities can’t compete with or against money losing by design socialist government welfare transit schemes.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
3:44 pm
“You should be embarrassed to post things this simple. You whine about public transit being subsidized (as if the mean ol gubbamint is just trying to stymie the private sector), but you never complain about highway improvements being gigantic subsidies for trucking companies, airports being subsidies for airlines, and port expansions handouts to shipping companies.”
“There’s never been a public transit system anywhere that’s turned a profit–in that sense, they’re like the interstates. Gigantic money losers–but of course you wouldn’t dare whine about that. They serve a public good by reducing congestion and decreasing reliance on gasoline, plus they reduce emissions. But you think its socialism because you only have a child’s grasp and knowledge of the subject.”
Contrary to the prevalent, and pervasive, popular belief amongst anti-road environmental greenies and the like who falsely think that roads are “gigantic money losers”, roads, ESPECIALLY, the Interstate System, have generated immeasurable amounts of wealth and prosperity for the American people by allowing raw materials to be shipped and transferred into production and the goods produced to be shipped from production to market much more quickly than if there were no Interstate system.
Because of the Interstate system, goods can get to market to satisfy demand much more quickly than they might be able on just rail or surface roads alone, creating more industry, more jobs, more wealth, more demand, etc.
Now should roads alone be the only mode of transportation and can a society go overboard with too much of a good thing? Of course as history has proved that it is and was a bad idea to destroy vital Intown neighborhoods across the country to build interstates through densely populated urban centers.
I fully and completely agree with your points that public/mass transit serves a public good by reducing congestion, decreasing reliance on gasoline and reducing emissions as those are points that no one could reasonably disagree with.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
9:49 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE:
Of course highway improvements are “gigantic subsidies for trucking companies” as trucking companies (and roadbuilders) have tremendous pull in state legislatures in Georgia and across the country.
If rail and transit advocates want improved and increased mass transit, then they will likely have to find a way to gain as much political pull as roadbuilders traditionally have had in state legislatures like the Georgia General Assembly, though that may be changing in the favor of rail advocates as Georgia House Speaker David Ralston was treated to an all-expenses paid family vacation to Europe by a German trainmaker late last year.
ld
December 20th, 2011
12:12 am
Nest perimeter wraps around Gainesville and Plains.
Don
December 20th, 2011
9:17 am
Lots of common sense in Kyle’s assessment:
“a) Recognize there is neither the land nor the money available for building highway lanes ad infinitum, and that new general-purpose lanes quickly become as full as the older lanes;”
A basic truth proven over and over and over again in Atlanta and elsewhere in the US. In Atlanta, we have already done all the “easy” lane building we could. Additional lanes on I-85 and I-75 would be VERY expensive – every overpass bridge would need to be replaced to widen roads. Bridges are what make road construction expensive. Grading and paving are relatively cheap.
“b) Acknowledge the final piece of the Interstate portion of the corridor comprises high-occupancy toll (HOT) lanes that may or may not relieve congestion in older lanes, but which will guarantee someone who needs to travel rapidly at a given time can do so (for a price);”
Possibly the only way to add any capacity to suburban highways, but let’s make sure these projects have a decent benefit/cost ratio and not just do them because they “don’t cost too much”.
“c) Devote more resources to nearby arterial roads to add parallel capacity for motorists, particularly those traveling relatively shorter distances;”
Cheaper local projects are a good idea. They don’t even need state or Fed funding.
“d) Ensure any funds for mass transit are dedicated to uses such as commuter rail, which can provide high capacity at peak travel times without attempting to change lifestyles or prioritize developers’ dreams over commuters’ frustrations.”
I’d go so far as to say “ensure any funds for ANY TRANSPORTATION project must be ranked by benefit/cost”. Commuter rail will surely rise to the top as it uses existing right of way and can easily provide a few lanes of peak highway capacity for a low cost.
When looking at cost and benefit it is important to remember that projects with a low capital cost might require an ongoing operating subsidy, but the overall cost may be lower.
Would you rather pay $10,000 now in a lump sum or pay $1000 now and a dollar a day?
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
1:30 pm
This is about public transportation service, in Metro Atlanta, which, I don’t know if you have quite noticed, seems to be struggling by not aiming to make a profit or at the very least aiming to break even by refusing to collect more at the farebox to fund better service in lieu of revenue streams, funded by increased taxes, from both state and local governments that are coming anytime soon, if ever.
I’ve already explained this to you several times, I’m not going to keep holding your hand.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
1:31 pm
Contrary to the prevalent, and pervasive, popular belief amongst anti-road environmental greenies and the like who falsely think that roads are “gigantic money losers”, roads, ESPECIALLY, the Interstate System, have generated immeasurable amounts of wealth and prosperity for the American people by allowing raw materials to be shipped and transferred into production and the goods produced to be shipped from production to market much more quickly than if there were no Interstate system.
Oh I see it’s your favorite way of doing business, privatized profit and socialized losses. But you have yet to declare your love for toll roads.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
1:34 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
9:49 pm
Of course highway improvements are “gigantic subsidies for trucking companies” as trucking companies (and roadbuilders) have tremendous pull in state legislatures in Georgia and across the country.
If rail and transit advocates want improved and increased mass transit, then they will likely have to find a way to gain as much political pull as roadbuilders traditionally have had in state legislatures like the Georgia General Assembly, though that may be changing in the favor of rail advocates as Georgia House Speaker David Ralston was treated to an all-expenses paid family vacation to Europe by a German trainmaker late last year.
Translation: “Screw the poors.”
Like those dependent on transit have much (any?) pull in Georgia, let alone the rest of the country. People like you ignore the poor, unless you actively want to screw them out of more money (such as increased fares and HOT lanes). You’re horrible, and I just want to reiterate I think you’re a college Republican who hasn’t had a full-time job yet.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
1:39 pm
If I’ve got to pay $6 one-way like on the D.C. Metro or even $11.00 one-way like on BART in Northern California, then I and most upper class, middle class and working poor would much rather pay it and be able to get there sooner than pay $2.50 one-way and get there later or not all.
I looked at the BART fare calculator and the highest fare I could find was just over $6. Anyway, what about the people who are priced out of riding by higher fares? Naw, you don’t really have an answer for that. I’d challenge you to find even middle class families who could afford a $22 daily round trip commute. Even a car becomes cheaper than transit at that cost, so whether you are doing so explicitly or implicitly you’re dooming transit in such a scenario to failure, or at the least just making it a plaything for people with above average incomes (the only people you care about).
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
1:40 pm
Using congestion pricing and putting tolls on existing lanes is unnecessarily as most Metro Atlantans are already very aware that the traffic that they drive in everyday is very bad and would likely jump at the opportunity to utilize improved mass transit options at this degenerative point.
lol, you’re such a card
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
1:46 pm
Actually, I’d like to take us forward to an era where there is very frequent train bus service with very low headways and much larger geographical coverage, an increased high level of service that cannot come into being with minimal fares of $2.50 one-way no matter how long the trip and minimal revenues from a paltry 1% sales tax.
Welp it’s never going to happen in your LOLbertarian utopia, and despite that every transit system in the world is subsidized by governments you keep saying “la la la, USER FEES TO THE RESCUE!”
Even with different fare structures (such as BART), the public transit agencies rely on funds from public sources.
User fees sound too good be true–and they are!
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 20th, 2011
1:57 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
1:46 pm
“User fees sound too good be true–and they are!”
User fees are the ONLY way that we are going to get improved mass transit service in this town and state where the Republican-dominated and controlled Georgia General Assembly is not going to, nor would they even dare, vote directly for a tax increase to fund transit anytime soon.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 20th, 2011
2:00 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
1:40 pm
“lol, you’re such a card”
Takes one to know one, and as a major TOOL, you definitely are one.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 20th, 2011
2:07 pm
“”If I’ve got to pay $6 one-way like on the D.C. Metro or even $11.00 one-way like on BART in Northern California, then I and most upper class, middle class and working poor would much rather pay it and be able to get there sooner than pay $2.50 one-way and get there later or not all.”"
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
1:39 pm
“I looked at the BART fare calculator and the highest fare I could find was just over $6. Anyway, what about the people who are priced out of riding by higher fares? Naw, you don’t really have an answer for that. I’d challenge you to find even middle class families who could afford a $22 daily round trip commute. Even a car becomes cheaper than transit at that cost, so whether you are doing so explicitly or implicitly you’re dooming transit in such a scenario to failure, or at the least just making it a plaything for people with above average incomes (the only people you care about).”
$10.90 / $4.10*
One-way from
Pittsburg/Bay Point
to San Francisco Int’l Airport
*Senior, Youth and RTC Clipper fare. Restrictions apply. Read more
http://www.bart.gov/tickets/calculator/index.aspx
Gosh, do I have to do EVERYTHING for you?
Kyle Wingfield
December 20th, 2011
2:09 pm
Last Democrat and Billy Mays: I believe y’all have hashed out this one well beyond the point of diminishing returns. Let’s drop it.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:11 pm
Oh god, using existing freight rights-of-way sounds easy and cheap but it’s a bad, bad idea. You’ll always be at the mercy of the freight line, and essentially private railroads will get free infrastructure upgrades while still maintaining control of their lines.
Operationally it’s a bad move because freight trains are more susceptible to delays en route (not to mention so much slower) than passenger trains. The railroads will never welcome your passenger service with open arms, they wasted no time passing them off to the government in the 70s. Carriers will basically put up with it and put as little money and effort as they have to in order to keep the wheels turning. Build your own mainlines, have the tracks to yourself, never worry about being at the whim of of the freight railroads.
On another topic, European governments are actively subsidizing major infrastructure improvements to reduce trucking over the coming decades. One such project is a new trans-Alpine tunnel (that alone will cost $30 billion) in an effort to shift more freight to trains from trucks. Among the advantages is of course decreased highway congestion, but also decreased fuel consumption and reliance on external energy (diesel fuel).
Europeans have dealt with high energy costs for generations–Americans keep pretending that someday, if we just elect the right people, that fuel will drop back down to a buck a gallon. Trucking–and interstates–are the dinosaurs of tomorrow. I have no idea why we pour countless billions of dollars into them annually when the writing seems to be on the wall. I have this feeling that we’re going to get caught with our pants down over the situation. Another spike in fuel is going to be hilarious when all the while we should have been spending it on transit.
BTW, China built the world’s largest high-speed rail system within the last 15 years, whereas we have maintained the status quo of highway construction. There is *no* high speed rail in the US. I’d say the Chinese (and other countries with functional, practical transit networks not based on highways) are going to have the last laugh.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:12 pm
Kyle Wingfield
December 20th, 2011
2:09 pm
Last Democrat and Billy Mays: I believe y’all have hashed out this one well beyond the point of diminishing returns. Let’s drop it.
Last Democrat is your alt account, isn’t it
Kyle Wingfield
December 20th, 2011
2:13 pm
Yes, Billy @ 2:12, you’ve finally cracked the code. I have nothing better to do than to log into WordPress with another account and “debate” you.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:15 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 20th, 2011
2:07 pm
“”If I’ve got to pay $6 one-way like on the D.C. Metro or even $11.00 one-way like on BART in Northern California, then I and most upper class, middle class and working poor would much rather pay it and be able to get there sooner than pay $2.50 one-way and get there later or not all.””
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
1:39 pm
“I looked at the BART fare calculator and the highest fare I could find was just over $6. Anyway, what about the people who are priced out of riding by higher fares? Naw, you don’t really have an answer for that. I’d challenge you to find even middle class families who could afford a $22 daily round trip commute. Even a car becomes cheaper than transit at that cost, so whether you are doing so explicitly or implicitly you’re dooming transit in such a scenario to failure, or at the least just making it a plaything for people with above average incomes (the only people you care about).”
$10.90 / $4.10*
One-way from
Pittsburg/Bay Point
to San Francisco Int’l Airport
*Senior, Youth and RTC Clipper fare. Restrictions apply. Read more
http://www.bart.gov/tickets/calculator/index.aspx
Gosh, do I have to do EVERYTHING for you?
lol you hail this as a victory while shelling out more of your money to use a basic transit service.
What planet are you from, spaceman?
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:16 pm
Kyle Wingfield
December 20th, 2011
2:13 pm
Yes, Billy @ 2:12, you’ve finally cracked the code. I have nothing better to do than to log into WordPress with another account and “debate” you.
You wouldn’t have responded so quickly and defensively if it wasn’t the case gahaha
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:19 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 20th, 2011
1:57 pm
User fees are the ONLY way that we are going to get improved mass transit service in this town and state where the Republican-dominated and controlled Georgia General Assembly is not going to, nor would they even dare, vote directly for a tax increase to fund transit anytime soon.
There’s never been a transit system anywhere purely funded on fares, but you keep skipping over that.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 20th, 2011
2:20 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
1:31 pm
“Oh I see it’s your favorite way of doing business, privatized profit and socialized losses. But you have yet to declare your love for toll roads.”
That’s because toll roads should be used in very limited quantities, being well-placed in high-traffic corridors where they can pay for themselves over time. I’m definitely NOT in love with the I-85 HOT lanes that were created from existing HOV-2 lanes.
Though Intown transit advocates should be far from mad about the I-85 HOT lanes as they look to be part of a long-term strategy to force historically transit-adverse suburbanite single-occupant motorists to ride the transit that they would not necessarily want to ride otherwise.
The state wants to put tolls on up to three lanes on each direction of I-85 as their way of pushing SOV motorists off of the freeway onto local surface streets and eventually onto the future transit lines that the state looks like they may take a much larger role in backing than in the past.
Over the long-term, the I-85 HOT lanes actually work to the advantage of those who want to force everyone to ride transit as tolls on multiple lanes will push traffic off of the freeway and right into transit seats.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 20th, 2011
2:22 pm
Kyle Wingfield
December 20th, 2011
2:09 pm
“Last Democrat and Billy Mays: I believe y’all have hashed out this one well beyond the point of diminishing returns. Let’s drop it.”
If only our highly-esteemed state legislators cared as much about transportation as we do, eh?
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:24 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 20th, 2011
2:20 pm
Though Intown transit advocates should be far from mad about the I-85 HOT lanes as they look to be part of a long-term strategy to force historically transit-adverse suburbanite single-occupant motorists to ride the transit that they would not necessarily want to ride otherwise.
Why would transit advocates laud the HOT lanes? Before they opened most people knew they were a gift to wealthy commuters while removing capacity for middle class and poor commuters. There’s no reason to favor HOT lanes, unless you are wealthy enough to be able to use them daily.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:28 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 20th, 2011
2:20 pm
That’s because toll roads should be used in very limited quantities, being well-placed in high-traffic corridors where they can pay for themselves over time.
Why? They’re the only profitable roads.
Or is it because, deep down, you like the idea of toll roads but only for other people? That’s a common conservative thing.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 20th, 2011
2:33 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:15 pm
“lol you hail this as a victory while shelling out more of your money to use a basic transit service.”
It is a victory for Bay Area residents as there is no way that they could get around an area that has such a very-limited road infrastructure without the assistance of BART, which has such high fares for a heavy rail-anchored bus service because it acts as a hybrid heavy rail/subway-commuter rail system that covers both relatively short, intermediate/moderate and longer commuting distances.
“What planet are you from, spaceman?”
I’m from planet REALITY where it is crystal clear that the Georgia General Assembly isn’t going to raise taxes to fund transit in the Atlanta Region out of an intense fear of a tax-and-government-averse political base, who under no circumstances will accept tax increases to fund an expansion of government, no matter how seeming the need.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:37 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 20th, 2011
2:33 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:15 pm
“lol you hail this as a victory while shelling out more of your money to use a basic transit service.”
It is a victory for Bay Area residents as there is no way that they could get around an area that has such a very-limited road infrastructure without the assistance of BART, which has such high fares for a heavy rail-anchored bus service because it acts as a hybrid heavy rail/subway-commuter rail system that covers both relatively short, intermediate/moderate and longer commuting distances.
You of all people should know the price of a good or service is a function of demand, not its cost of production.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:38 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 20th, 2011
2:33 pm
I’m from planet REALITY where it is crystal clear that the Georgia General Assembly isn’t going to raise taxes to fund transit in the Atlanta Region out of an intense fear of a tax-and-government-averse political base, who under no circumstances will accept tax increases to fund an expansion of government, no matter how seeming the need.
I love it when conservatives use the term reality, it’s so deliciously ironic (and completely lost on y’all).
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 20th, 2011
2:41 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:24 pm
“Why would transit advocates laud the HOT lanes? Before they opened most people knew they were a gift to wealthy commuters while removing capacity for middle class and poor commuters. There’s no reason to favor HOT lanes, unless you are wealthy enough to be able to use them daily.”
Actually, the I-85 HOT lanes are more of a gift to wealthy real estate developers and international rail and trainbuilders, who both think that there’s A LOT more money to made in passenger rail transit-anchored density than the traditional post-World War II road-centered (post) suburban sprawl.
Real estate developers and land spectulators now have their eyes on land around and near future (and existing) rail transit stations as opposed to the suburban and exurban freeway junctions that they often keyed-in on in years past.
Future growth will be centered and anchored on rail lines and train stations in both the city and the ‘burbs, not freeways.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:44 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 20th, 2011
2:41 pm
Actually, the I-85 HOT lanes are more of a gift to wealthy real estate developers and international rail and trainbuilders, who both think that there’s A LOT more money to made in passenger rail transit-anchored density than the traditional post-World War II road-centered (post) suburban sprawl.
Yes, America and especially Atlanta is a hotbed of train-building activity
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 20th, 2011
2:48 pm
“You of all people should know the price of a good or service is a function of demand, not its cost of production”
The higher fares on BART are a function of demand as there are only two automobile crossings (bridge crossings) that connect the West Bay (the San Francisco side) with the East Bay (the Oakland side).
Transportation across the San Francisco Bay, especially to get to the job centers in the Financial District in Downtown SF and SF Int’l Airport is at a premium because of the geographical divide of the Bay that severely restricts automobile traffic.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
2:55 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 20th, 2011
2:48 pm
“You of all people should know the price of a good or service is a function of demand, not its cost of production”
The higher fares on BART are a function of demand as there are only two automobile crossings (bridge crossings) that connect the West Bay (the San Francisco side) with the East Bay (the Oakland side).
Transportation across the San Francisco Bay, especially to get to the job centers in the Financial District in Downtown SF and SF Int’l Airport is at a premium because of the geographical divide of the Bay that severely restricts automobile traffic.
Okay so you’re saying that user fees (like higher fares) exist because people have no choice but to pay them (and do), instead of them being necessary for expansion?
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 20th, 2011
2:58 pm
The state is already looking at bids to build the large MMPT (Multimodal Passenger Terminal) that will be located near Five Points in “The Gulch” in Downtown Atlanta, which is also a hotbed of real estate speculation activity in anticipation of that area’s development into a major passenger rail hub for the entire Southeastern U.S.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
3:01 pm
Officials been talking about the gulch for 15 years now, and the reason real estate speculators are snapping up land is because it’s relatively inexpensive and rapidly being gentrified, not because of a terminal that may or may not be built in a decade or two.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 20th, 2011
3:06 pm
“Okay so you’re saying that user fees (like higher fares) exist because people have no choice but to pay them (and do), instead of them being necessary for expansion?”
The higher fares are necessary because there is no way that the public subsidy alone could provide for the very high level of service (low headways, frequent trains, extensive geographical coverage, etc) needed to help take cars off of a very limited road network. The higher fares also provide for continued expansion as there are plans to eventually expand the train network so that it will wrap all the way around the South End of the Bay and connect back up to the City of San Francisco in a complete loop.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
3:07 pm
The higher fares are necessary because there is no way that the public subsidy alone could provide for the very high level of service (low headways, frequent trains, extensive geographical coverage, etc) needed to help take cars off of a very limited road network.
No, we both established the price of a service is a function of demand, not the cost of production, remember?
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 20th, 2011
3:11 pm
In 2005, only 53% of BART’s revenue was paid by fares, the rest was from public sources or advertising. And that’s considered good for public transit.
So, if on a good day BART’s fares (user fees) pay just over half of the bills, it can be said that user fees alone won’t keep the system running, much less expand it. They’re haven’t in the past on any public transportation system, and won’t in the future. Why do you keep saying they will?