HOT lanes reversal reflects lack of vision, leadership for transportation in Georgia
If there’s one thing I’m sick of hearing, it’s that metro Atlanta and Georgia have no “plan B” for transportation. That’s because, increasingly, there’s no “plan A,” either.
The latest example is the Department of Transportation’s decision this past week to abort the optional toll lanes on I-75 and I-575 in Cobb and Cherokee.
Some 200,000 commuters travel that corridor daily. The stretch of 75 between the 575 split and the top-end perimeter is one of the most congested highways in metro Atlanta. Yet, here’s what those commuters will have to show for years of DOT planning for toll lanes and the politicized exercise of drafting a project list for next year’s transportation tax referendum:
Jack. And squat.
A real plan for the corridor — and most of what I’m about to say also applies to other parts of the metro area — would:
a) Recognize there is neither the land nor the money available for building highway lanes ad infinitum, and that new general-purpose lanes quickly become as full as the older lanes;
b) Acknowledge the final piece of the Interstate portion of the corridor comprises high-occupancy toll (HOT) lanes that may or may not relieve congestion in older lanes, but which will guarantee someone who needs to travel rapidly at a given time can do so (for a price);
c) Devote more resources to nearby arterial roads to add parallel capacity for motorists, particularly those traveling relatively shorter distances;
d) Ensure any funds for mass transit are dedicated to uses such as commuter rail, which can provide high capacity at peak travel times without attempting to change lifestyles or prioritize developers’ dreams over commuters’ frustrations.
As of today, Cobb and Cherokee residents stand to get no additional general-purpose lanes, no HOT lanes, no enhanced arterials. Just some projects designed to encourage a certain kind of economic development — somewhere else. Oh, and, in about 10 years, a glorified streetcar that travels one mile outside Fulton.
It’s particularly galling that DOT has now spent eight years and tens of millions of dollars clearing its throat regarding public-private partnerships. Now it’s thrown all that away, without betraying the faintest clue as to what comes next.
The coup de grace came from DOT board member Brandon Beach, who told the AJC’s Ariel Hart that a turning point was the realization the state might have to pay up to 45 percent of the project’s $1 billion cost.
“There gets a point where if you’re going to do that much public participation, you may want to look at doing the project yourself,” Beach said, right before admitting DOT doesn’t have that kind of money.
Let’s get this straight: $450 million is too much money, so it’s better to spend $1 billion? A billion dollars we don’t have? So that we can recoup money from tolls instead of … not spending it in the first place?
For, if the private firms felt they couldn’t recoup more than $550 million in costs from tolls, why should we believe the state would recoup more? As it stands, fat chance of enticing them or other firms to invest in our infrastructure in the future.
We often hear politicians and experts say voters must approve the T-SPLOST so that metro Atlanta isn’t seen as backward and indecisive. After these follies, on the heels of the broken promise to remove the Ga. 400 toll last summer, maybe voters need to reject it — to get the attention of those politicians and experts. Their decisiveness and vision leave a lot to be desired, too.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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320 comments Add your comment
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 18th, 2011
6:15 pm
mountain man
December 18th, 2011
10:11 am
“”Also, it seems like MARTA was never designed as an ALTERNATIVE to cars; it was more designed as a transportation source for those who had no cars. Why did MARTA never establish an Express bus system in North Fulton to easily and efficiently transport people to downtown? Because it did not fit with their philosophy, that is why.”"
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
12:57 pm
“Look at how stupid you are”
BILLY MAYS HERE: Why is it necessary to call him stupid for expressing a very valid observation?
With rockbottom fares that have been intentionally held low over the years that fund increasingly inadequate service, MARTA appears to attempt to appeal only to the poorest of the poor people without cars instead of attempting to appeal to people with cars that are the biggest part of the congestion problem.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 18th, 2011
6:35 pm
mountain man
December 18th, 2011
10:06 am
“I agree with Smokey above – as long as the new HOT lane is an added lane, and will pay totally for itself in tolls – I don’t mind it being built……”
“…….Also, when I-575 was built a number of years ago, it was overcrowded when it opened. I thought that the DOT was supposed to make ten-year projections and buid for the projected traffic. They could easily have made it three lanes in each direction, but they stopped at two. Now to install that third lane would be construction traffic.”
GDOT doesn’t want to widen I-575 because they have switched from a roadbuilding-only mindset to a mindset that they are going to make minimal road additions while funneling single-occupant vehicle traffic to mass transit at the behest of the state politicians who are controlled by land spectulators and real estate developers who have become enamored and obsessed with dense transit-based development and grown bored with and tired of traditional road-based suburban sprawl.
For the I-575 corridor, this includes not building any additional lanes on I-575 and pushing all additional and most existing traffic onto a proposed light rail and commuter rail line on the Georgia Northeastern Railroad line that runs parallel to the east of I-575 between Marietta and Canton by way of Woodstock and Holly Springs.
mountain man
December 18th, 2011
6:36 pm
” I mean even a cursory glance at Wikipedia would give you, in a nutshell, why low density urban development isn’t sustainable in the long run, but you don’t even want to take the time to read something like that. :
So I took a look at wikipedia and it said nothing about sprawl being non-sustainable.
all it said is that low density development was more car-dependent and people there drove more miles. So what? unless we start rationing gasoline, it is my decision how much I want to spend in order to live my “white, middle-class lifestyle”.
mountain man
December 18th, 2011
6:39 pm
“With rockbottom fares that have been intentionally held low over the years that fund increasingly inadequate service, MARTA appears to attempt to appeal only to the poorest of the poor people without cars instead of attempting to appeal to people with cars that are the biggest part of the congestion problem”
That is correct. Why don’t they just take away the one cent sales tax and have MARTA charge what it costs to run the system? Because the poor people without cars would revolt, that’s why!
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
December 18th, 2011
6:47 pm
“If you’re going to troll at least try to be good at it.”
———–
Translation: “I have nothing.”
Hillbilly D
December 18th, 2011
6:52 pm
A little perspective. Back when the MARTA system was first being discussed, Roswell and Alpharetta were just two country towns and I-285 wasn’t completely finished. The area where Perimeter Mall is now, was a diary farm.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 18th, 2011
7:42 pm
interested observeer
December 18th, 2011
1:51 pm
“I drove into Atlanta on a packed I-85 Saturday night. From where the HOV lane begins (on the north side) to Spaghetti Junction, we saw NOT ONE vehicle in the HOV lane….”
“…The result is that one-seventh of the highway, on a very heavy traffic night, was abandoned….”
“….On the way back home on Sunday morning, of course there were also no vehicles in the HOV lane going the opposite direction. But traffic was light enough and moving well enough that there would be no reason to pay to use the HOV lane….”
“….Can the DOT explain how removing one lane of traffic from a busy highway – at considerable monetary expense – serves the need of the public or improves the flow of traffic?”
GDOT can’t explain it because they’re not the ones making the decision to do it.
Those decisions are coming from much higher up the decision-making chain in state government at the behest of land developers who want to push motorists onto future rail transit lines that parallel freeway spokes which will be swamped by massive increases in freight truck traffic after the expansion of the Port of Savannah.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 18th, 2011
7:52 pm
mountain man
December 18th, 2011
6:39 pm
“Why don’t they just take away the one cent sales tax and have MARTA charge what it costs to run the system? Because the poor people without cars would revolt, that’s why!”
They already have. When MARTA first proposed to raise fares to a bare minimum of $2.00 a few years ago, advocates for the homeless went berserk, holding rallies and protesting in the streets, basically screaming “bloody murder” while acting like it is the end-of-the-world.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 18th, 2011
8:02 pm
Hillbilly D
December 18th, 2011
6:52 pm
“A little perspective. Back when the MARTA system was first being discussed, Roswell and Alpharetta were just two country towns and I-285 wasn’t completely finished. The area where Perimeter Mall is now, was a diary farm.”
Exactly. Cobb was barely what could be called a suburb (a Cherokee or Bartow-like exurb by today’s standards) and Gwinnett had about than one-twelveth of the 800,000-plus people that it has today as a then-still under construction I-85 was the ONLY four-lane highway in the entire county.
At the time that MARTA was under consideration, no one could have imagined that a much more provincial Metro Atlanta that had recently just eclipsed the one-million population mark would eventually have close to six million people clogging up 16-20 lane roads.
Hillbilly D
December 18th, 2011
8:07 pm
last Democrat
Yeah when you drove from Atlanta to Marietta, up 41, or the Marietta 4 Lane as it was called back then, you passed through a lot of open area. It wasn’t wall to wall people, like now. You could actually tell when you were leaving Atlanta and entering Marietta. Of course, even then, all directions started at the Big Chicken.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 18th, 2011
8:08 pm
People also forget that up until the post-Olympics era, MARTA, to its credit, was considered to be a very advanced mass transit system for the size of the population of the metro area that it was serving roughly between the years 1979-80 and 1996 when the population of Metro Atlanta was in a range between 2 million and 3.5 million.
When the population of the metro area eclipsed the 3.5 million-4 million mark in the late 1990s is about the time when both MARTA and the freeway system rapidly began to become obsolete.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 18th, 2011
8:13 pm
Hillbilly D
December 18th, 2011
8:07 pm
The biggest problem is that all these years later, even after all of the crushing population growth and overdevelopment in that area (the Cobb County/Hwy 41 Corridor), Cobb Parkway/Hwy 41 still has only four through lanes from Smyrna all the way to the Bartow County line.
And we wonder why the traffic is so bad?
Hillbilly D
December 18th, 2011
8:45 pm
And we wonder why the traffic is so bad?
A lot of it is because all the people who complain about the traffic, moved here from somewhere else.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:24 pm
Hillbilly D
December 18th, 2011
3:11 pm
Some folks want to live in the city, some want to live in the suburbs, and some want to live in the country. Live and let live, I say.
Agreed! But the folks who want to live in the country shouldn’t expect anyone to come save them from ridiculous commutes and high gas prices.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:27 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 18th, 2011
5:08 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE: Dude, what are you talking about? Nonwhites are found in an abundance in outlying counties, making up over 42% of the entire Metro Atlanta population, including 38% of the population in Cobb County, 45% in Henry County, 47% in Gwinnett County, 48% in Douglas County and 54% in Rockdale County.
In the 21st Century, if you live in a suburban OTP county, chances are that you’re going to be living in a diverse environment. Just because someone chooses to live outside of I-285 doesn’t mean that they are trying to get away from non-whites, especially in this day-and-age where there are many relatively high-income census tracts that are predominantly non-white.
But then again, you’re an admittedly proud “elitist” who lives Intown, so you obviously don’t know that the world does not end at I-285.
lol you keep thinking the counties immediately outside of 285 are the exurbs and no one lives out further than that. Better get that sever case of myopia checked out soon.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:35 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 18th, 2011
6:15 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE: Why is it necessary to call him stupid for expressing a very valid observation?
With rockbottom fares that have been intentionally held low over the years that fund increasingly inadequate service, MARTA appears to attempt to appeal only to the poorest of the poor people without cars instead of attempting to appeal to people with cars that are the biggest part of the congestion problem.
I call him stupid for the same reason I call you stupid, look at what you’re proposing: making the poor people that both of you say makes up MARTA’s base… pay more? Yeah, great idea, can’t see that one being doomed to failure, meanwhile you guys will pat yourselves on the back and laugh heartily because your stupid user fees would set back the only realistic answer to congestion in the metro area. Make the poor cough up more, I mean seriously what are you guys snorting.
The reason MARTA has inadequate service is because it is poorly funded. It’s the only rapid transit system in the US that receives no state funding.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:38 pm
December 18th, 2011
6:36 pm
” I mean even a cursory glance at Wikipedia would give you, in a nutshell, why low density urban development isn’t sustainable in the long run, but you don’t even want to take the time to read something like that. :
So I took a look at wikipedia and it said nothing about sprawl being non-sustainable.
all it said is that low density development was more car-dependent and people there drove more miles. So what? unless we start rationing gasoline, it is my decision how much I want to spend in order to live my “white, middle-class lifestyle”.
God you’re so stupid
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:42 pm
mountain man
December 18th, 2011
6:39 pm
That is correct. Why don’t they just take away the one cent sales tax and have MARTA charge what it costs to run the system? Because the poor people without cars would revolt, that’s why!
Then the inner city poor people couldn’t get to their jobs because transit would be too expensive and they’d just start going on welfare in droves, something I’m sure you hate so much it makes you foam at the mouth. So which would you rather do, subsidize transit or pay for legions of more people to get on welfare? Very hypothetical, but I’m trying to convey to you why the idea of “public good” isn’t pure evil, I’m sure you’re too deranged to see that though. Every mass transit system in the US and possibly the world is subsidized or outright funded through public sources, get over your dream of them being self-sustaining because (just like the interstates), they’re not.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:43 pm
Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
December 18th, 2011
6:47 pm
“If you’re going to troll at least try to be good at it.”
———–
Translation: “I have nothing.”
I would be ashamed to post a burn this weak
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:46 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 18th, 2011
8:02 pm
At the time that MARTA was under consideration, no one could have imagined that a much more provincial Metro Atlanta that had recently just eclipsed the one-million population mark would eventually have close to six million people clogging up 16-20 lane roads.
lol, nope, and even today you’re putting your head in the sand about mass transit. Metro Atlanta will expanding until it breaks because people like you think there’s no such thing as bad growth or sprawl, and the glorious free market will save us all before we’re completely gridlocked/out of water.
There will be a day when your electric bill will pale in comparison to your water bill.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 18th, 2011
11:48 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:35 pm
“The reason MARTA has inadequate service is because it is poorly funded. It’s the only rapid transit system in the US that receives no state funding.”
Why, you don’t say? God, you are such a genius. Good work, Sherlock. Did you figure that out all by yourself?
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:51 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 18th, 2011
8:08 pm
People also forget that up until the post-Olympics era, MARTA, to its credit, was considered to be a very advanced mass transit system for the size of the population of the metro area that it was serving roughly between the years 1979-80 and 1996 when the population of Metro Atlanta was in a range between 2 million and 3.5 million.
When the population of the metro area eclipsed the 3.5 million-4 million mark in the late 1990s is about the time when both MARTA and the freeway system rapidly began to become obsolete.
No it wasn’t. The Metro in Washington DC commenced construction about the same time MARTA did, now let’s compare:
Metro: 106 route miles on 6 lines with a new line under construction
MARTA: 47 miles on 3 lines, no expansion in 10 years
MARTA has never been properly funded for many reasons, and it’s never been seen as an advanced rapid transit system since the early 80s.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:52 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 18th, 2011
11:48 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:35 pm
“The reason MARTA has inadequate service is because it is poorly funded. It’s the only rapid transit system in the US that receives no state funding.”
Why, you don’t say? God, you are such a genius. Good work, Sherlock. Did you figure that out all by yourself?
Yeah I completely owned you with once sentence lol.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 18th, 2011
11:56 pm
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:35 pm
“I call him stupid for the same reason I call you stupid, look at what you’re proposing: making the poor people that both of you say makes up MARTA’s base… pay more? Yeah, great idea, can’t see that one being doomed to failure, meanwhile you guys will pat yourselves on the back and laugh heartily because your stupid user fees would set back the only realistic answer to congestion in the metro area. Make the poor cough up more, I mean seriously what are you guys snorting.”
User fees are the ONLY answer to helping MARTA be able to improve service and expand its geographical footprint as taxes just simply are not going to be raised in this anti-tax, anti-government political climate.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
12:02 am
“MARTA has never been properly funded for many reasons, and it’s never been seen as an advanced rapid transit system since the early 80s.”
Wrong, wrong, WRONG!!!!!
Despite a the lack of state funding and support, MARTA was considered one of the best mass transit systems in North America during the 1980’s & 90’s, especially for a city of its size, between 2 million to 3.5 million.
MARTA was considered to be so impressive to the international community at one time that it, along with the then-newly widened freeway system, were two of the key reasons that Atlanta won the Olympic games in 1990.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
12:19 am
When Atlanta won the Olympic games in 1990, the population of the Atlanta Region was 2.9 million, so the 47 miles or less of MARTA rail track provided service to a much higher percentage of the population than the same miles of unexpanded track serves today with a population of 5.8 million in the metro region.
Cobb was still a suburb completely dominated by lily-white ultraconservatives, Gwinnett was still considered an inconsequential lily-white exurb and the traffic on I-75 NW, I-85 NE and the Top End of I-285 was still completely manageable.
MARTA may have only covered Fulton and DeKalb Counties back in the 80’s and may have still been unfunded and unsupported by a then-Democrat dominated state legislature, but those low fares went much farther back then they do today in helping to operate, maintain and expand the service, which was then still considered to be one of the most comprehensive mass transit systems on the North American continent.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
12:34 am
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:51 pm
“MARTA has never been properly funded for many reasons”
And, contrary to ITP popular belief, neither has the Georgia Department of Transportation since the early 1990’s.
At about the same time that MARTA was considered to be one of the best mass transit systems in North America, GDOT was also considered to be one of the best state highway departments in the country, being ranked as high as #2 in the nation and winning much acclaim after what was then considered to be an award winning-caliber “Freeing-the-Freeways” massive redesign and widening project.
In 1990 MARTA was considered to a Top-10 transit agency and GDOT was a Top-Five ranked state transportation agency. Fast forward 20+ years and MARTA is the #91-ranked urban transit agency (out of 100) in the nation and GDOT, while it still ranks high in road surface quality, overall routinely ranks in the BOTTOM-five of all state transportation agencies.
What happened to plunge Metro Atlanta and Georgia so far from the top to the bottom of the national transportation rankings?
Total lack of leadership and interest in transportation issues from state government over the last 20 years, ESPECIALLY over the last decade. That’s what happened.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
12:50 am
mountain man
December 18th, 2011
6:39 pm
“That is correct. Why don’t they just take away the one cent sales tax and have MARTA charge what it costs to run the system? Because the poor people without cars would revolt, that’s why!”
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:42 pm
“Then the inner city poor people couldn’t get to their jobs because transit would be too expensive and they’d just start going on welfare in droves, something I’m sure you hate so much it makes you foam at the mouth. So which would you rather do, subsidize transit or pay for legions of more people to get on welfare?”
Besides the homeless, mentally and physically handicapped, the poorest of the poor, schoolaged children and some underclassmen college students, most poor people don’t stay dependent on a service as increasingly undependable as MARTA which becomes more and more dependent on an increasingly meager 1% sales tax due in part to its stubborn refusal to raise its fares to a high-enough level to help better support a higher level of service.
As was the case when Clayton County ceased operating C-Tran instead of opting to raise fares to keep the buses going, many poor people without cars who are truly dependent on MARTA would much rather pay higher fares and get a higher level of service than to pay really low fares and have increasingly poor or no service at all.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
12:52 am
The very first opportunity they get, most poor people buy cars instead of continuing to be dependent on a sinking ship of a mass transit service that is too scared of its own political shadow to raise fares to the level needed to sustain higher-quality service.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
1:21 am
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:42 pm
“Very hypothetical, but I’m trying to convey to you why the idea of “public good” isn’t pure evil, I’m sure you’re too deranged to see that though. Every mass transit system in the US and possibly the world is subsidized or outright funded through public sources, get over your dream of them being self-sustaining because (just like the interstates), they’re not.”
That “dream” of self-financing is likely the only way that mass transit is going to be substantially improved and expanded in the Atlanta Region in this anti-tax and anti-government climate.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:38 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 18th, 2011
11:56 pm
User fees are the ONLY answer to helping MARTA be able to improve service and expand its geographical footprint as taxes just simply are not going to be raised in this anti-tax, anti-government political climate.
1. wrong
2. wrong
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:38 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
12:02 am
“MARTA has never been properly funded for many reasons, and it’s never been seen as an advanced rapid transit system since the early 80s.”
Wrong, wrong, WRONG!!!!!
Despite a the lack of state funding and support, MARTA was considered one of the best mass transit systems in North America during the 1980’s & 90’s, especially for a city of its size, between 2 million to 3.5 million.
MARTA was considered to be so impressive to the international community at one time that it, along with the then-newly widened freeway system, were two of the key reasons that Atlanta won the Olympic games in 1990.
lol nope, we bribed the IOC like every other place has
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
1:39 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 18th, 2011
8:02 pm
“At the time that MARTA was under consideration, no one could have imagined that a much more provincial Metro Atlanta that had recently just eclipsed the one-million population mark would eventually have close to six million people clogging up 16-20 lane roads.”
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:46 pm
“lol, nope, and even today you’re putting your head in the sand about mass transit. Metro Atlanta will expanding until it breaks because people like you think there’s no such thing as bad growth or sprawl, and the glorious free market will save us all before we’re completely gridlocked/out of water….”
“…..There will be a day when your electric bill will pale in comparison to your water bill.”
Well maybe wouldn’t be running out of water and stuck in endless gridlock if people like you had gotten off of your [darned] high horse and shown some leadership engaging in some realistic planning, now would we?
If I’ve got my head stuck-in-the-sand by advocating for a realistic way that service can be improved and expanded then you’ve got your head stuck up your a– by thinking that the Georgia General Assembly is going to raise taxes to fund MARTA anytime soon in a Tea Party, anti-tax, anti-government, anti-Intown Liberal dominated state political climate.
User fees, in the form of increased fares, are the ONLY way that improved mass transit options are ever going to come into fruition.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:40 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
12:34 am
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:51 pm
…At about the same time that MARTA was considered to be one of the best mass transit systems in North America…
Stop saying this, you’re making it up.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:42 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
12:52 am
The very first opportunity they get, most poor people buy cars instead of continuing to be dependent on a sinking ship of a mass transit service that is too scared of its own political shadow to raise fares to the level needed to sustain higher-quality service.
Do you really think that MARTA has never considered adjusting their fare structure? Yes they have, it’s an idea that gets floated around and never happens because no one’s going to pay more to ride–those that can afford to use alternate transportation will do so, and those too poor to pay for the higher fares will stop riding.
Change your name to USERFEESBOT because that’s your only idea and it’s not a very inspired one.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
1:45 am
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:38 am
“lol nope, we bribed the IOC like every other place has”
LOL, no doubt…But it wouldn’t have been a bribe that was “acceptable” to the world if Atlanta wouldn’t have had what was a then-critically lauded MARTA and a then-cutting edge freeway system.
Simply put: No MARTA, no “Freeing-the-Freeways”, no Olympics.
Even if you’ve got the money to bribe, you’ve still gotta have the tools to do the job.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:46 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
1:39 am
Well maybe wouldn’t be running out of water and stuck in endless gridlock if people like you had gotten off of your [darned] high horse and shown some leadership engaging in some realistic planning, now would we?
Attempts were made at expanding MARTA and initiating commuter rail but no one OTP would have it, now that the free market is pricing them out of their commutes (along with more nonwhites moving out of the city) it’s somewhat of a different story now, but your worn-out “we want it, but I want the the private sector to do it” bit isn’t going to work, if you want effective mass transit built and run by the private sector you’re going to be waiting for a long time. Face it, you want trains and buses, your taxes will go up.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:47 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
1:39 am
User fees, in the form of increased fares, are the ONLY way that improved mass transit options are ever going to come into fruition.
You keep saying this, but it keeps being not true
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:48 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
12:50 am
Besides the homeless, mentally and physically handicapped, the poorest of the poor, schoolaged children and some underclassmen college students, most poor people don’t stay dependent on a service as increasingly undependable as MARTA which becomes more and more dependent on an increasingly meager 1% sales tax due in part to its stubborn refusal to raise its fares to a high-enough level to help better support a higher level of service.
You really don’t know anything about poor people–hardly surprising though!
Keep on dreaming, user fees boy. You so crazy.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:50 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
1:45 am
LOL, no doubt…But it wouldn’t have been a bribe that was “acceptable” to the world if Atlanta wouldn’t have had what was a then-critically lauded MARTA and a then-cutting edge freeway system.
Simply put: No MARTA, no “Freeing-the-Freeways”, no Olympics.
Even if you’ve got the money to bribe, you’ve still gotta have the tools to do the job.
Dude MARTA has never been lauded as advanced, I’d like to see where anyone has said that
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
1:51 am
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:40 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
12:34 am
“…At about the same time that MARTA was considered to be one of the best mass transit systems in North America…”
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 18th, 2011
11:51 pm
“Stop saying this, you’re making it up.”
Dude, you live Intown, you should know that in the period before the Olympics, MARTA was one of the most highly-regarded mass transit systems at the same time that GDOT was one of the most highly-regarded state transportation (roadbuilding agencies), especially when the Atlanta Region had half the population of today.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:52 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
12:34 am
As was the case when Clayton County ceased operating C-Tran instead of opting to raise fares to keep the buses going, many poor people without cars who are truly dependent on MARTA would much rather pay higher fares and get a higher level of service than to pay really low fares and have increasingly poor or no service at all.
Here we go again, circular logic wherein you think poor people have the money to keep paying increasingly higher fares.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:53 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
1:51 am
“Stop saying this, you’re making it up.”
Dude, you live Intown, you should know that in the period before the Olympics, MARTA was one of the most highly-regarded mass transit systems at the same time that GDOT was one of the most highly-regarded state transportation (roadbuilding agencies), especially when the Atlanta Region had half the population of today.
No [MARTA] wasn’t and I would like you to prove that, and when you do, why does it matter, why do you keep making the same post 5 times in a row?
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
1:58 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
1:39 am
“User fees, in the form of increased fares, are the ONLY way that improved mass transit options are ever going to come into fruition.”
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:47 am
“You keep saying this, but it keeps being not true”
Well, transit sure-as-[heck] ain’t gonna be improved with increased taxes, now is it?
The Georgia General Assembly would rather run through [Heck] with gasoline drawers on than to have to face their conservative base in a primary after voting to raise taxes.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
2:00 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
1:58 am
Well, transit sure-as-[heck] ain’t gonna be improved with increased taxes, now is it?
Not sure how you keep figuring this
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
2:05 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
12:34 am
“As was the case when Clayton County ceased operating C-Tran instead of opting to raise fares to keep the buses going, many poor people without cars who are truly dependent on MARTA would much rather pay higher fares and get a higher level of service than to pay really low fares and have increasingly poor or no service at all.”
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:52 am
“Here we go again, circular logic wherein you think poor people have the money to keep paying increasingly higher fares.”
Some poor people would much rather pay higher fares than be walking or not be able to get to work.
Although, without bus service many, if not most, poor people cough up the money to buy cars.
A LOT more poor people own cars than ride the bus as rich people ain’t the only ones who own cars.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
2:09 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
1:58 am
“Well, transit sure-as-[heck] ain’t gonna be improved with increased taxes, now is it?”
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
2:00 am
“Not sure how you keep figuring this”
I just stated why:
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
1:58 am
“The Georgia General Assembly would rather run through [Heck] with gasoline drawers on than to have to face their conservative base in a [GOP] primary after voting to raise taxes.”
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
2:22 am
It was hard enough (and decades in-the-making) just getting a Republican-dominated Georgia General Assembly to agree to let Metro Atlantans (and Georgians in other regions of the state) have the right to vote on whether they wanted to raise their own taxes by one-percent to fund supposed transportation improvements out of fear that their ultraconservative and libertarian anti-tax, anti-government GOP base would label them as R.I.N.O.s and Liberal-sympathizers.
Even with the one-percent tax increase, it still will not be anywhere near remotely enough to fund all the numerous transportation improvements that are critically-needed after years of wanton neglect by state government.
Even with little or no tax increases, the transportation challenges will still be there in sobering full-effect, which means that the state is gonna resort to user fees in the form of tolls on existing lanes in the city, suburbs and exurbs and substantially fares on mass transit in order to upgrade and expand where urgently needed, which at this point is pretty much everywhere.
The impending massive increase in freight truck traffic that will flood Atlanta Region roads after the expansion of the Port of Savannah, one of the busiest seaports in the Americas, makes drastic, if not draconian, transportation-planning measures non-negotiable from this point going forward.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
2:47 am
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 19th, 2011
12:52 am
“The very first opportunity they get, most poor people buy cars instead of continuing to be dependent on a sinking ship of a mass transit service that is too scared of its own political shadow to raise fares to the level needed to sustain higher-quality service.”
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:42 am
“Do you really think that MARTA has never considered adjusting their fare structure? Yes they have, it’s an idea that gets floated around and never happens because no one’s going to pay more to ride–those that can afford to use alternate transportation will do so, and those too poor to pay for the higher fares will stop riding.”
Maybe those who are too poor to pay the increased fares may stop riding, but those who are poor, but not too poor to pay the fares will benefit immensely with the increased level of service which will help attract riders who can consistently pay the increased fares to help support the much higher level of service that poor riders will benefit from.
Poor riders in Washington D.C. benefit greatly from the increased level of service that $5 and $6 dollar peak-hour one-way fares help to provide.
“Change your name to USERFEESBOT because that’s your only idea and it’s not a very inspired one.”
User fees may not be a very inspiring idea (neither are substantial increases in taxes), but this economic and political climate where tax increases are not a viable nor popular option, they are the ONLY idea.
If government can’t substantially raise taxes to fund what, at this point, are critically-needed improvements to mass transit, then it has no choice but to get the ball rolling making those much-needed improvements by borrowing money by floating bonds and paying back those bonds over a period of 20-40 years with adequately-priced fares.
Maybe extra revenue streams may come online in the form of fees on traffic fines and possibly even taxes after the improved service is up and running and it gets more and more popular with the public, maybe not.
Until some real leadership is provided from somewhere, the need for improved and expanded mass transit will remain, mass transit which has got to be paid for some way, some how. If tax increases are not a political option, then that leaves user fees as the only option, unless, of course, several billion dollars just suddenly falls out of the sky to help fund it.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 19th, 2011
3:13 am
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 19th, 2011
1:46 am
“Attempts were made at expanding MARTA and initiating commuter rail but no one OTP would have it, now that the free market is pricing them out of their commutes (along with more nonwhites moving out of the city) it’s somewhat of a different story now, but your worn-out “we want it, but I want the the private sector to do it” bit isn’t going to work, if you want effective mass transit built and run by the private sector you’re going to be waiting for a long time. Face it, you want trains and buses, your taxes will go up.”
Personally, I don’t have any qualms about paying either slightly or moderately higher taxes or higher fares to fund a better overall transportation system.
But we’ve already been waiting a very long time for effective mass transit (and better roads) to be built and run by a highly-dysfunctional and incompetent public sector, so what’s the difference? Either way we’re going to likely continue to wait.
Ironically (but not surprisingly) it’s the public sector (local, regional and state government) which has gotten in the way of both itself, the public sector, and the private sector from improving mass transit.
It’s a total lack of competent leadership in government (starting with state government) why we are in the huge mess we are in now with transportation, water and education infrastructure.