HOT lanes reversal reflects lack of vision, leadership for transportation in Georgia
If there’s one thing I’m sick of hearing, it’s that metro Atlanta and Georgia have no “plan B” for transportation. That’s because, increasingly, there’s no “plan A,” either.
The latest example is the Department of Transportation’s decision this past week to abort the optional toll lanes on I-75 and I-575 in Cobb and Cherokee.
Some 200,000 commuters travel that corridor daily. The stretch of 75 between the 575 split and the top-end perimeter is one of the most congested highways in metro Atlanta. Yet, here’s what those commuters will have to show for years of DOT planning for toll lanes and the politicized exercise of drafting a project list for next year’s transportation tax referendum:
Jack. And squat.
A real plan for the corridor — and most of what I’m about to say also applies to other parts of the metro area — would:
a) Recognize there is neither the land nor the money available for building highway lanes ad infinitum, and that new general-purpose lanes quickly become as full as the older lanes;
b) Acknowledge the final piece of the Interstate portion of the corridor comprises high-occupancy toll (HOT) lanes that may or may not relieve congestion in older lanes, but which will guarantee someone who needs to travel rapidly at a given time can do so (for a price);
c) Devote more resources to nearby arterial roads to add parallel capacity for motorists, particularly those traveling relatively shorter distances;
d) Ensure any funds for mass transit are dedicated to uses such as commuter rail, which can provide high capacity at peak travel times without attempting to change lifestyles or prioritize developers’ dreams over commuters’ frustrations.
As of today, Cobb and Cherokee residents stand to get no additional general-purpose lanes, no HOT lanes, no enhanced arterials. Just some projects designed to encourage a certain kind of economic development — somewhere else. Oh, and, in about 10 years, a glorified streetcar that travels one mile outside Fulton.
It’s particularly galling that DOT has now spent eight years and tens of millions of dollars clearing its throat regarding public-private partnerships. Now it’s thrown all that away, without betraying the faintest clue as to what comes next.
The coup de grace came from DOT board member Brandon Beach, who told the AJC’s Ariel Hart that a turning point was the realization the state might have to pay up to 45 percent of the project’s $1 billion cost.
“There gets a point where if you’re going to do that much public participation, you may want to look at doing the project yourself,” Beach said, right before admitting DOT doesn’t have that kind of money.
Let’s get this straight: $450 million is too much money, so it’s better to spend $1 billion? A billion dollars we don’t have? So that we can recoup money from tolls instead of … not spending it in the first place?
For, if the private firms felt they couldn’t recoup more than $550 million in costs from tolls, why should we believe the state would recoup more? As it stands, fat chance of enticing them or other firms to invest in our infrastructure in the future.
We often hear politicians and experts say voters must approve the T-SPLOST so that metro Atlanta isn’t seen as backward and indecisive. After these follies, on the heels of the broken promise to remove the Ga. 400 toll last summer, maybe voters need to reject it — to get the attention of those politicians and experts. Their decisiveness and vision leave a lot to be desired, too.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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320 comments Add your comment
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 17th, 2011
3:59 am
William Quantrill
December 17th, 2011
3:31 am
“We don’t want the trains because the trains bring the filth and criminals from Atlanta. They can rob your house and be back home on the train before you get off of work.”
So let me get this straight: You’re afraid of the filth and criminals who would ride a train, get off the train and walk several blocks to rob your home, but you’re not afraid of the filth and criminals whom already live in both Gwinnett and Cobb in an abundance and use automobiles to commit even more crimes in less than half the time than someone on a train?
Those Mexican drug cartels, bank robbers and home invaders out in Gwinnett ain’t exactly riding bicycles and using Gwinnett County Transit, you know?
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 17th, 2011
4:05 am
William Quantrill
December 17th, 2011
3:31 am
If you’re a burglar or a someone who does home invasions in a robbing crew, a Metro Atlanta favorite, which mode of transportation would allow you to, a) load up more robbed and stolen stuff and, b) get away and disappear from the police quicker?
Here’s a hint: When it comes to brazen and violent crime, MARTA is NOT smarta!
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 17th, 2011
4:18 am
William Quantrill
December 17th, 2011
3:31 am
“Since when is it MY responsibility to provide subsidized buses and trains for the 47% that pay no federal taxes?”
It’s not, which is why buses and trains should be subsidized with USER FEES in the form of FARES.
You don’t ride, you don’t pay, it should be that simple.
“Look at the affirmative action hires and engineers that planed 285!”
Look at the affirmative action hires and engineers that “PLANED” 285? With a sentence like that, I can only infer that that includes you, and not on the basis of race or ethnicity, but seemingly on the basis of INTELLIGENCE (or in your particular case, lack thereof). Maybe you back off of attacking affirmative action when you obviously have benefitted so much from the program personally.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
December 17th, 2011
4:53 am
In a frank conversation with MSN writer Lawrence Ulrich, Audi of America President Johan de Nysschen has said that the Chevy Volt will fail and that anybody who buys the car is an idiot.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 17th, 2011
5:37 am
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 16th, 2011
11:18 pm
“Anyway, gasoline will never be cheap again, and most of the morons who post here are indicative of the Georgia population–in total denial about energy. Yeah, build more lanes. Great foresight–5 decades ago. Make I-75 20+ lanes wide. No one will be able to afford gas to commute by then, but they’ll be the world’s best bike paths.”
Actually, the state (GDOT) proposed to widen I-75 to between 24-26 lanes back in 2005 as part of the original Northwest Corridor toll lane proposal, but quickly backed-off of the proposal when the public got wind of the part of the plan that would have meant relocating, condeming and demolishing thousands of homes and businesses that contribute heavily to Cobb County’s property tax base. A process that would have likely pushed Cobb County into an accelerated decline as many of those homeowners, property owners and business owners would have likely taken their property tax payments (and resulting local government tax revenues) to neighboring counties (like Cherokee, Bartow and Paulding).
“Morons, the only thing that’s going to alleviate traffic and make commutes bearable is public transportation. And people here still think criminals are going to ride the train to the suburbs, then steal your tv, and ride back home with it on the train.”
I wouldn’t necessarily call people morons for having LEGITIMATE concerns about crime as MARTA does have a history of well-documented issues with rider safety and security, which, unfortunately, isn’t at all unusual for MOST large and highly-populated urban areas. Though it is interesting that the following statement proves your point about public perception of mass transit around these parts and MARTA in particular:
William Quantrill
December 17th, 2011
3:31 am
“We don’t want the trains because the trains bring the filth and criminals from Atlanta. They can rob your house and be back home on the train before you get off of work.”
There may be a fear by some of those who still think of their OTP counties as being exurban oasises that are far removed from the urban core that increased mass transit options will bring more crime, but the seedy element and the crime that comes with it is already in those counties in an overabundance, especially in Cobb and Gwinnett Counties in particular, as Marietta has had an above normal violent and property crime rate for quite some time, especially in the I-75/Franklin Rd/Bentley Rd corridor, and Gwinnett has grown into an epicenter of the drug trade in the Americas.
Most of the seedy and criminal element that is more than present in Cobb and Gwinnett didn’t necessarily move in from just Atlanta, but they moved straight into those counties from other parts of the country and the world as Metro Atlanta is a MAJOR destination for transplants, relocatees and immigrants, good, bad and outright illegal, from the West Coast, other parts of the South, the Midwest, the Northeast, Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe and Latin America.
“I can’t wait for $6/gallon gas. I want to see you suburbanites squeal like piggies for trains and buses that you steadfastly opposed for generations. You’re already decades late to the game, but there’s hope for you yet. But it’s gonna get worse before it gets better.”
OTPers’, suburbanites and even exurbanites ALREADY want increased transportation options in the form of commuter buses and trains as the GRTA Xpress, GCT and CCT commuter buses serving places as far-flung to Intowners as Dacula, Buford, Canton, Cumming, McDonough, Acworth, Newnan, etc, have been a smash hit with OTP suburbanites and exurbanites leaving many of those who frequently and loyally utilize the service in want of a way overdue commuter rail option that, like the buses, does not have to fight through 30-40 miles of extremely heavy and often gridlocked traffic on the freeway system.
There may have been a pervasive and crippling fear of transit by OTP suburbanites that has retarded North Georgia’s infrastructure and economic growth, but the days of being able to continue to resist that transit are quickly drawing to close as the impending massive expansion of the Port of Savannah and a resulting overwhelming increase in already exceptionally heavy truck traffic is an undeniable game-changer that looms too large to deny any longer.
Either the state is going to have to dramatically expand and increase the capacity of the freeway system or it is going to have to invest heavily in mass transit and convince very large numbers of motorists to ride it and quick, lest we face the prospect of local freeways like I-75, I-285 and I-20 being absolutely and completely impassable during much of the day, even more so than now.
If you think that the traffic on these roads is bad now, and it is, just wait until a deepened Port of Savannah starts handling those supertankers and freight barges after 2014 and the amount of truck traffic more than doubles and you will see just how BAD traffic can be.
The time for playing games (ITP vs OTP, Georgia vs Atlanta, transit vs. cars, etc) is over and is nothing more than a stubborn vestige and played-out relic of the post Jim Crow/Civil Rights era of the late 20th Century that we literally can no longer afford to hold onto.
This town absolutely MUST embrace transit as the anchor of its commuting lifestyle or it will literally be buried under an avalanche of crushing freight truck traffic emanating from the Port of Savannah and the seaports of the Gulf Coast.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
December 17th, 2011
6:56 am
The people who already HAVE transit aren’t using it. Why double down on failure? To fulfill some libtards’ wet dreams?
Public transportation in Atlanta: A proven failure.
No thanks.
Beverly Fraud
December 17th, 2011
7:03 am
Let’s see, the government BLATANTLY LIES to people about toll roads (read: GA 400) and then wonders why people have no faith in tolls OR “private-public” partnerships?
And then this beaut:
“We often hear politicians and experts say voters must approve the T-SPLOST so that metro Atlanta isn’t seen as backward and indecisive…”
Sorry, but that horse done left the barn when Atlanta thought PICKUP TRUCKS DANCING was the way to introduce Atlanta to the world during the Olympics.
Hewhoone
December 17th, 2011
7:14 am
“Plan B” is to get rid of the politicians that think higher taxes are the solution.
Beverly Fraud
December 17th, 2011
7:59 am
Why can’t we just raise funds by giving sponsorship naming rights for the Georgia General Assembly?
As in the Yahoo General Assembly, since you can’t seem to swing a stick inside the Gold Dome without hitting at least one yahoo, possibly a good half dozen.
Eric
December 17th, 2011
8:04 am
It was the right decision in response to the public’s rejection of additional tolls on roads already built with public money. We already have enough growth in Atlanta. It’s time to encourage new arrivals to move elsewhere.
TallaDawg
December 17th, 2011
8:14 am
To heck with short-sighted, hyper-development attitude’s effect on roads, y’all are going to run out of water soon. All because of a lack of planning and an economy based almost exclusively on development and building – forever. One question: what happens when there is nowhere else to build? (It may be in 20, 50 or 200 years but we or our ancestors will have to deal with it.)
TallaDawg
December 17th, 2011
8:19 am
Lil’ Barry @6:56 – Once one resorts to name-calling, you lose any and all credibility you may have had.
Also, at some point, Americans are going to have to accept high-occupancy, public transportation.
Jd
December 17th, 2011
8:20 am
Leadership is definitely lost. The Selig Institute (UGA) says the last decade in Georgia is “the lost decade”. Hopefully, it won’t become the “lost century”.
Car-nivore
December 17th, 2011
8:26 am
Let the 1% sit in traffic with the rest of us pigs.
mike
December 17th, 2011
8:31 am
Well I see the real reason always comes out when talking about MARTA going into Cobb and Gwinnett counties. Not matter how people try to dress it up, it always boils down to those folks coming out of Atlanta. Funny considering it has never been those folks coming out of Atlanta that has screwed this state and this country over. It has always been those folks you see when you look in the mirror each day. While you are giving history lessons on MARTA you might try looking up the history on those two counties as well as the rest surrounding the city of Atlanta. Other than the city of Atlanta, this state has never been at the head of progress. Drive 50 miles any direction from Atlanta and you will always find that attitude of ‘those people’.
harold
December 17th, 2011
8:33 am
HOT lanes make money for the GDOT when there is traffic, meaning traffic becomes GDOT’s cash cow, more so than ever, with the most direct connection possible between traffic and GDOT cash flow.
If the HOT lanes are successful, what are the chances the GDOT would ever allow for any project that would alleviate traffic? HOT lane profits would be the nails in the coffin for EVER getting viable public transportation for this hole.
The disuse of the existing HOT lanes at any price gives me a glimmer of hope for the intelligence level of the car-commuting public in metro Atlanta. We are not falling for your scam, GDOT!
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
December 17th, 2011
8:35 am
TallaDawg: Also, at some point, Americans are going to have to accept high-occupancy, public transportation.
———————
No problem with that, as long as it’s voluntary, rather than mandated by libtarded fascist control freaks like those who gave us big-government Obozocare.
harold
December 17th, 2011
8:39 am
Dear Mike, Uh.. When was the last time you visited Gwinnett or Cobb? Both counties are quite diverse. The only “those people” coming out of Atlanta these days would be gays, but who doesn’t love the gays? Criminals drive stolen SUVs. They can’t haul your 60 home on the bus, you know. The only crime brought my public transit is petty crime at the mall. The cure for that is for transit access not to be at malls. Who uses rail to go from mall to mall? Transit to the mall is such foolishness. It is Jim Crow design intended to keep regular 9 to 5 working folk off transit and paying for cars and gasoline.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 17th, 2011
8:55 am
Eric
December 17th, 2011
8:04 am
“It was the right decision in response to the public’s rejection of additional tolls on roads already built with public money.”
I agree. Not only that, but the numbers just don’t work as the state will have to come up with additional money to fund a project which already very much likely a money losing proposition, in that regard it makes no sense to give all of the “profit” to a private company while the taxpayers take a huge loss. Guess that GDOY thought that they didn’t need any outside help in blowing off billions of taxpayer money that they are very much capable of losing on their own.
“We already have enough growth in Atlanta. It’s time to encourage new arrivals to move elsewhere.”
Not so sure about that one. It’s probably not a very good idea at all to repel high-paying jobs and college graduates because we are too lazy and incompetent to invest in our transportation infrastructure. The problem with that approach is that we’ll run away the investors with the high-paying jobs who can pay the bills while still attracting the dregs of society who either can’t or have no intention of paying their own way. The last that we want to do is run away premium high-quality growth while still having to deal with the bottom of the rung low-quality growth until living conditions become too unbearable (ala, Detroit).
Jefferson
December 17th, 2011
9:03 am
When the GOP promises services that won’t cost anything, you don’t get the services. Nothing wrong with collecting taxes and providing services. Who is running this state these days ?
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 17th, 2011
9:07 am
harold
December 17th, 2011
8:33 am
“If the HOT lanes are successful, what are the chances the GDOT would ever allow for any project that would alleviate traffic? HOT lane profits would be the nails in the coffin for EVER getting viable public transportation for this hole.”
Not necessarily as there seems to be some very high-ranking government officials in kahootz with developers who look to be driving the HOT lane strategy of either converting existing lanes or only adding lanes with tolls as a way to pushing drivers off of the roads towards transit, which developers have seemingly fixated on as a way of making maximum profits in the 21st Century in the same way that developers made money off of roads in the 20th Century/Post World War II era.
Put an adjustable toll on an existing lane and it pushes traffic out of that lane as the higher the toll, the less traffic in that lane.
Put an adjustable on multiple lanes and it pushes traffic off of the expressway onto local surface highways where drivers eventually get tired of sitting in worse traffic and the idea of riding on a train that doesn’t have to contend with the gridlock becomes much more appealing than it would have before. There’s a method to the HOT lane madness and that method is to make transit more financially viable, or maybe even profitable, by pushing heavy traffic off of the freeways.
Michael H. Smith
December 17th, 2011
9:13 am
Also, at some point, Americans are going to have to accept high-occupancy, public transportation.
Oh Really?!
Says who?
You….
against millions upon millions of Americans that have made and-or continue to make a choice to reject “PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION”. (even though most of us are paying for it in some way, shape, form or another likely against our free moral will in the majority of heretofore unspoken cases)
In case you don’t care to admit it “PUBLIC” MASS TRANSIT in America is not at the top of many successful story lists.
For me a huge part of the anti- mass transit scheme begins and ends with the word “PUBLIC”, as in… drum roll please: Da GUB’MENT. (Made up of two types of “Crats” that I usually don’t like: Bureaucrats and Democrats.
My reasons are plain and simple(including Constitutional): The non-military transporting of people or goods is a function of commerce. In other words, government should never be in business competing against private enterprise or in a business that “could” conceivably exist in the private sector domain.
retired early
December 17th, 2011
9:29 am
There is no solution….it is too late. The developers had their way for decades over more reasoned land use advocates.
Savannah had the benefit of Oglethorpe’s vision hundreds of years ago. City parks are everywhere, creating a very “livable” environment.
Atlanta is mostly concrete surrounded by more concrete where each “suburb” demands a fair share of the pie in population growth, unconcerned with the cumulative effect of such poor planning. So, now you complain that you can’t get from point “A” to point “B” fast enough.
Here is a thought…try “decentralization” of state government for starters. In this high tech era there is no reason to headquarter almost all of state government in “downtown Atlanta”.
Atlanta has simply outgrown it’s infrastructure…including water…so yes…it is too late.
ragnar danneskjold
December 17th, 2011
9:31 am
Government is the problem, but not for the reasons our host believes. Suggest that you notice the traffic on the King holiday or Presidents’s Day. No trouble navigating on those normal workdays, because the government workers are absent.
State government should move as many of its functions as possible – at least, those that cannot be abolished for lack of real need – to somewhere like Macon, centrally located for the state.
Federal employees are at least as big a problem as state – here the Ragnar solution differs some. Need to establish a Federal ghetto in Clayton County, so the airport would be convenient for those free-spending overlords.
Get the government out of Atlanta and there will be no need for new transportation expenditures for the next generation.
ragnar danneskjold
December 17th, 2011
9:32 am
Alternatively, move the Braves north of the perimeter and I will never have a need to go into the morass.
Michael H. Smith
December 17th, 2011
9:36 am
How about let’s get rid of some government including its’ Bureaucrats a.k.a. GUB’MENT Employees, ragnar?
Just say…
zeke
December 17th, 2011
9:38 am
If the morons classified as transportation engineers and experts would use some old fashioned common sense, the solution would become clear! THE OUTER BELTWAY, DIRECT BYPASSES, NO HOV OR HOT LANES ARE THE SOLUTION! Just think how many vehicles would be diverted away from 285 and downtown if these alternates were available! Someone going to Lockheed from the Norcross or Stone Mountain areas WOULD NOT HAVE TO TRAVEL ON 285! Someone going from Nashville to Orlando WOULD NOT HAVE TO GO THROUGH DOWNTOWN ATLANTA! And on and on! MARTA, buses or other mass subsidy projects are not and never will be the answer! And do not even bring up the trolleys or absurd beltline!
Alexander
December 17th, 2011
9:47 am
Whatever happened to the northern arc. Looking at Jimmy Carter Blvd and Ga Hwy 20 and State Bridge Rd on the north side, it seems there’s a tremendous amount of east west traffic.
Angus
December 17th, 2011
9:47 am
My Plan “B” would be for Fulton and Dekalb to be allowed to increase our transit tax, so that we can expand MARTA ITP and develop the Beltline with it’s associated streetcars.
retired early is correct – there is no undoing the suburbs, nor do they want it undone. The City of Atlanta, however, is on the cusp of something great and has plenty of room for growth – smart growth, which we want.
phillistine comeback
December 17th, 2011
9:49 am
“….I will never go into the morass…”
And the Ragmuffin has never been more of an a$$.
Rick in Grayson
December 17th, 2011
10:01 am
Business has been very slow to embrace tele-working and they continue to be entrenched within the perimeter defined by 285.
Tax companies more for building roads and provide tax breaks for those companies based on percentage of tele-workers and much lower rates for those that provide work places outside the perimeter.
Chip
December 17th, 2011
10:05 am
Well, I see the hate-filled liberals like BILLY MAYS HERE and GWINNETT DAVE are spewing their vile visciousness on anyone who commits the crime of disagreeing with them.
My favorite fantasy of liberals like them is the insane idea of taxing gas to the point of unaffordability to “force” me out of my car.
Yeah, right… like we’re going to let that happen.
Wake up, libs… you are a demographic minority that is dying. Conservatives outnumber you over 2 to 1, and we’re having 3 kids for every one of yours. Your fascist utopia is never going to happen… and no, we are not addicted to oil, we are adicted to our FREEDOM, symbolized by the automobile and our freedome to come and go as we please, and THAT drives you control freak liberals crazy.
That’s what all this traffic hysteria is relly about… control freak liberals just can’t handle the fact that free people are free to go where they want, when they want, and the liberals can’t stop it.
Bob
December 17th, 2011
10:11 am
Lived in the Texas metroplex. Traffic is worse than Atlanta.
Lugnut
December 17th, 2011
10:43 am
Kyle, you reference the the DOT and its planning or lack thereof. Do you for a moment consider that the DOT simply responds to its numerous overlords, including Gena Trash Talk Evans, the former Governor, every single DOT commissioner, and every other GA legislator that can potentially make trouble for anyone in the DOT food-chain. You give the DOT credit for far too much power. Please – follow the money. Who is the “private” in these public private partnerships. Why did the HOT lane work need to involve a Spanish company? What is the ownership of the Spanish company’s subsidiaries that actuall performed the work? The answers are all there. In the case at hand, it was simply a matter of one project too far. Given the loud and angry repsonse to the 85 HOT lanes, a lot of people in power began to fear control of the gravytrain if they pushed it one step further. This stuff ain’t complicated.
BW
December 17th, 2011
10:44 am
This is the epitome of reaping what you sow on tax policy. Really it’s a lack of leadership overall. People in Georgia actually believe that user fees will pay for everything and tax increases are never needed for large scale infrastructure projects. This has got to end…those people who believe Georgia has grown enough will be dismayed when the cash cow, which is metro Atlanta (75% of Georgia’s economic activity according to the Economist), dries up. How about our “leaders” come up with a plan first? They have been sorely lacking in that area. All the supposed low hanging fruit has been picked, both on the state and federal levels. There are no Democrats or liberals to blame for this one Kyle….this is a philosophical failing on the part of so-called small government conservatives. Hopefully metro Atlanta can withstand their failure long enough for the state to wake up and realize that Republicans are as full of sh** as Democrats….it’s all about maintaining power regardless the political ideology.
theTruth
December 17th, 2011
10:54 am
Just part of living in a red state.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
December 17th, 2011
11:18 am
I used to go downtown for Braves games, but my passport expired.
South Georgian
December 17th, 2011
11:20 am
Instead of building more lanes, why not begin requiring all new vehicles to have crash avoidance systems? The vehicle would be programmed to avoid collisions and put on brakes when vehicle in front signals it is automatically stopping. These systems already in some luxury cars. It would take a period to transition from driver control to auto control but when HAVE to go to Atlanta, traffic moves fine until a wreck occurs, then the problems arise. Equipped vehicles could drive closer to front vehicle at faster speed. Believe this would be much cheaper in long run–think of the lower insurance costs, plus fewer requirements for more lanes.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
December 17th, 2011
11:21 am
“this is a philosophical failing”
—————
I’m still trying to figure out what the “failing” is. Those of us smart enough to live in the distant suburbs have great housing options at reasonable prices and short, traffic-free commutes to nearby suburbs for work. What is it y’all complaining about?
Rafe Hollister
December 17th, 2011
12:01 pm
As long as it is cheaper and quicker the car will prevail. Mass transit dumps you downtown, where you have to transfer to a train, then a bus, and then walk. Very expensive, time consuming, and ineffective.
System was “planned” from outside to inside, should have been planned beginning with an effective way to get around downtown and then add routes going into and out of downtown. I fear it is too late to overcome prior absysmal planning and we have to move the government jobs out of downtown and build arterial roads to get people to work, as Ragnar suggests.
bob
December 17th, 2011
12:17 pm
Here’s what you need. A world class vision.
http://www.cfpt.org/projects/wctv
You know, in 1960, you could catch a train from Marietta to Atlanta and Atlanta to Stone Mountain, etc. All that went away and the roads came in. It would be nice to have trains again. Cheers.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 17th, 2011
12:27 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 17th, 2011
2:17 am
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 17th, 2011
1:22 am
“Key difference, people who live 30+ miles outside of the city typically choose to. Atlanta’s not as big nor densely developed as the larger cities you mention”
Well, the Atlanta Region as a whole is virtually as big, land area-wise, with a land-area of over 8,000 square miles (an area that is larger than six separate states) and a regional population of just under six million people that places Atlanta in a class with Washington D.C., Boston and Philadelphia.
DENSITY
COST OF HOUSING
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 17th, 2011
12:29 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 17th, 2011
2:49 am
People (newcomers and transplants) may not have to go that far outside of the city for affordable housing, but they do have to go farther outside of the city for public schools that are perceived to be of much higher quality as many parents either don’t or can’t (and won’t) pay to send their children to private schools.
Nope
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 17th, 2011
12:30 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 17th, 2011
2:49 am
Attempting to punish people for their living choices is neither a sound nor realistic transportation planning policy
We’re not punishing anyone. They punished themselves by living so far out of the way in hilariously spread out housing developments. Their problem.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 17th, 2011
12:31 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 17th, 2011
1:27 am
Are you saying that MARTA is only intended to serve primarily poor non-whites?
No
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 17th, 2011
12:33 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 17th, 2011
4:18 am
William Quantrill
December 17th, 2011
3:31 am
“Since when is it MY responsibility to provide subsidized buses and trains for the 47% that pay no federal taxes?”
It’s not, which is why buses and trains should be subsidized with USER FEES in the form of FARES.
lol this guy’s never heard of a public good
“WHY SHOULD THE FIRE DEPARTMENT BE PAID FOR BY RICH EAST COBBERS YET THEY TEND TO POOR PEOPLE!?!?!? RRRAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!!”
Take your insufferable conservative whining somewhere else, bro.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 17th, 2011
12:34 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 17th, 2011
4:18 am
You don’t ride, you don’t pay, it should be that simple.
LOL. If you truly believed in this, you’d be for every interstate being a toll road.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 17th, 2011
12:40 pm
Michael H. Smith
“…Also, at some point, Americans are going to have to accept high-occupancy, public transportation.”
Oh Really?!
Says who?
You….
against millions upon millions of Americans that have made and-or continue to make a choice to reject “PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION”. (even though most of us are paying for it in some way, shape, form or another likely against our free moral will in the majority of heretofore unspoken cases)
That’s fine, but don’t complain about your commute ever again–or gas prices.
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 17th, 2011
12:42 pm
ragnar danneskjold
December 17th, 2011
9:31 am
Government is the problem, but not for the reasons our host believes. Suggest that you notice the traffic on the King holiday or Presidents’s Day. No trouble navigating on those normal workdays, because the government workers are absent.
State government should move as many of its functions as possible – at least, those that cannot be abolished for lack of real need – to somewhere like Macon, centrally located for the state.
Federal employees are at least as big a problem as state – here the Ragnar solution differs some. Need to establish a Federal ghetto in Clayton County, so the airport would be convenient for those free-spending overlords.
Get the government out of Atlanta and there will be no need for new transportation expenditures for the next generation.
Don’t post
BILLY MAYS HERE
December 17th, 2011
12:43 pm
zeke
December 17th, 2011
9:38 am
If the morons classified as transportation engineers and experts would use some old fashioned common sense… MARTA, buses or other mass subsidy projects are not and never will be the answer!…
So much for common sense