No ‘plan B’ for metro Atlanta T-SPLOST? Not so fast

Let’s not turn our debate in Atlanta into what is going on in Washington by making this a never-ending discussion with no actual progress. We need to invest in the city we live in and it needs to start happening now. You can’t possibly please everyone especially considering how large and widespread an investment we are talking about. Dragging this out and coming up with plan b, plan c, trying to delay it longer, etc. only fragments support and creates confusion. I don’t believe it’s advocating being wasteful if you focus and commit. The city and our economic situation is constantly changing and evolving. Everything will not come out perfect but that’s no reason not to try and get something done for once.

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A boondoggle, seriously? Have you ever been to one of the world’s great cities? They all have one thing in common–great mass transit and superb walkability. The beltline will be a great legacy for Atlanta. And although this tax does support the beltline, it provides a lot of money for many other projects that need funding as well.

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I won’t vote for it because it’s just one more in the ongoing series of ideas from the kook element we elect in this state to shift even more of the tax burden to the lower-middle class & working poor who spend almost everything they earn. The kook element loves consumption taxes since they’re much better able to avoid them.

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When I moved to Atlanta nearly 25 years ago, Marta had me on a tighter curfew than my parents ever did. I remember paying to go to see local bands and having to choose between missing the headline act or begging a ride from strangers. I couldn’t even work past a certain hour because I would have had no way home.

Silly me, I thought by now every neighborhood in Dekalb and Fulton would have some sort of Marta station. I thought Marta would run 24 hours per day, keeping revelers off the road, and whisking people to work, shopping, worship, and home again. I thought we might have high speed rail to Athens, Milledgeville, Macon, Savannah, and Valdosta. Instead, Marta is up to $2.50 for a one way trip and, it seems, service is constantly being trimmed. Marta is being budget-cut to death.

If I were 21 today, I would not move here. I would move someplace with real public transportation and real interest in building the foundation for a solid future. The metro-Atlanta area hasn’t been a Mayberry doppleganger for a long-time, if ever. Misguided attempts to keep us mired in 1950s thinking (What’s good for General Motors is good for America.) are holding this region back.

So, when I first heard about a knew tax I assumed it would be dedicated to mass transit. Afterall, we already have a gasoline tax that can only be used for the construction of new roads and highways. Also, there seems to be no end to the number of federal grants available to roads and highways. It’s mas transit that needs some love, so to speak.

Right out of the gate, over 50% of the proposed tax was dedicated to roads. I cringed and thought “Maybe I’ll support it anyway since there’s some support for transit.” Every subsequent article seemed to describe more transit projects trimmed, eliminated, or replaced with a road project.

Then local papers began to quote self-described TEA Party members who opposed the tax, if any part of the money went to mass transit. I can see opposing the tax entirely if opposing taxes is your thing, but why would you support another tax for roads when we already pay so much via taxes for roads? Why would you oppose the provisions of a proposal that might have a true long-term positive impact on your community and regiion? And how many folks, who didn’t land in the paper and consider themselves TEA Party Supporters, read these statements,scratched their heads and wondered “Gee, why didn’t anyone poll me on my opinion?” I could be wrong, but I am convinced that it is entirely possible that there are some TEA Party Supporters who recognize a crying need for mass transit investment in this region.

So, I am leaning toward voting against this transportation bill. Maybe when the “Republicans’ mass-transit tax” really is about mass transit, I’ll reconsider.

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This is almost as stupid as giving tax money to Barry Oblamer to spend on green energy. In that case, we would get more Solyndra’s, in this case we get more of the same. Rail lines to no where, Marta stations with little or no parking, major intersections that do not work, untimed traffic lights, exit and entrances to freeways sharing the same 150 yards, HOV travelers having to cross five lanes of traffic to exit, on and on. Giving more money to the same people who designed this broken system, is insanity.

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Plan A was to actually have the State of Georgia make the right decision for the State and properly fund Transit projects including Mass Transit. But the State of Georgia, mired in indecision and near-sightedness did not make the right decision for the State, instead making no decision for years. Finally, a move in the right direction, although at best, half a step. They created a new level of beauracracy in the state for self-funding regions. Better than nothing I guess, but it’s still a cop-out by the State. They know people are reluctant to vote for more taxes on themselves, even if it’s necessary.

Of course, even if the State made the right decision, the DOT has a history of cronyism that matches any “good old boy” network. Hopefully this has recently changed, but it’s hard to tell when they don’t have the funding to actually get what needs to be done. . . done.

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The rest saw their transit systems dismantled in the early to mid 20th century. Because of this we are having to rebuild them, from scratch. One of the reasons why they were dismantled and eliminated in so many places was because of the nearly 100% subsidized road and highway project that took place in the 20’s and 30’s. Thats how we have most of these interstates. They were fsubsidized by the government to get the project rolling. That is essentially what we are having to do with rail now. So any argument regarding how much roads have or have not been subsidized without considering the historical nature of their development and origination, is a half hearted attempt at truly understanding transportation.

Regardless facts are facts, and according to the U.S Government Accountability Office, road funding is composed as such: 51% “User Fee” (Gas tax, registration, taxes, etc: declining since 1965) 37% Non-user revenue (sales and property taxes, which is a subsidy: increasing since 1977), and 12% Bond Revenue (also a form of subsidy). So 2%; hardly. These numbers also do not account for all of the hidden costs associated with roads, and especially highway building.

The above is quoted from martarocks.com. And mass transit is a key foundational building block of a modern city with a modern economy. I encourage you all to read about transit in Europe and China. VIsit places with more established mass transit systems such as Barcelona, Spain or Philadelphia, PA, or NYC. Consider how mass transit can serve this region, it’s businesses, its’ workers, and its’ quality of life.

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That’s what we need to do. Wait ANOTHER year to fix traffic and transit here. Wow not smart at all. And ATF if Cobb would have voted to join MARTA in the 70s there would already be rail at Town Ctr! This just shows that most still think backwards. Then you say Cobb is paying for it, even though this is clearly a REGIONAL tax. Everyone pays for it. Still thinking as a county and focusing on your local interest and not as a region. Someoe even ment

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I see those former surveyed supporters you cite must be sobering up Kyle?

I figured they’d come around to my way of voting: NOT ONLY NO, BUT HELL NO!

Now it’s time to sit back and laugh at these local socialists as they cry about we don’t have GOVERNMENT mass welfare transit like the rest of the modern socialist world complete with over compensated unionized employees who only vote for Democrats and use their dues money only to elect Democrats.

Bray on lil obumer dunkeys, bray on.

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There should be no need to tax the public to pay for these transit projects. Simply charge a fare that covers the capital and operating costs. How can anyone object to that? Oh, right, the kooks need to hide the real costs because their pet projects are not economically viable.

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LLB, you better stop telling the truth on these SOCIALIST DEMwit KOOKS one of them might just get so mad they’ll throw a copy of their manifesto at us.

Duck! Oooh that was a close one. Did you see the size of that Marxist manifesto that went flying by us LBB?

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In order to approve of any tax increase a basic level of trust of the politicians receiving this money must exist. Since most of the politicians in America are bought and paid for by business and the unions, I have zero faith in them. Therefore, why should I believe a 1% tax increase money will actually go where it’s supposed to? Who will guarantee this will happen? Other political hacks?

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If the vote fails, legislators will have to grow a “pair” and adjust the present gas tax to inflation (it was set in the 1980’s) and then look at an additional increase.I realize there is about 12 regions that have a vote, but what do we achieve if we wait longer? More gridlock? More corporations locating elsewhere? More frustration?

Or do Ya’ll want more toll roads? More Managed lanes taken from “free lanes”? And Rapid Transit needs to be in the mix…

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Oh lawd…another transportation piece.

Government seeks to expand “their beltline”. It’s already too big.

In preparation for the “mass transportation”, I’m lookin’ to get as far away as possible. Hopefully I’ll be dead before “the rest” find their way to my little slice of heaven.

schnirt

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road users have to buy and pay the total costs of operating their own vehicles, which users of mass WELFARE transit don’t!

Sorry, boys, seeing your car as a ego-laden pen!s substitute does not factor into anything. But thanks for summing up your objections: “those people” use mass transit, while real god-fearing ‘Mericans drive their CARS, just like the Founding Fathers. Therefore subsidizing cars = good, subsidizing mass transit = communism.

We’ve come to a point where we can’t afford to be blustering children anymore. We simply can’t afford it, and public policy will either be made with deliberate forethought and consideration or our systems will collapse. Reality corrects delusional folk. Too bad the consequences don’t land just on them.

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It’s not to much whether or not spending money on this is a good or bad thing. What nobody is addressing is what the hell is happening to the money we are already sending to the State? Why can’t some of these billions be directed to transit? When will it ever be enough? Seems to me politicians, be they Democrat or Republicans, are always looking for more. It is the right of the taxpayer to say “no mas.”

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wa wa witch soory or not you don’t have the numbers to say what “we” can’t afford or what “we” should pay for or how “we” will do it. According to what Kyle wrote the 51% that did support your TSPLOST have changed their minds and now you & your socialist ego are losing. But you are correct, reality corrects delusional folk and soon once again you will stand correct when this TSPLOST fails and public WELFARE transit doesn’t get the funding you libs want.

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carlosgvv: Since all of the politicians in America are elected by the same morons who put Obozo in office, I have zero faith in them.
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Fixed.

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I hope you don’t believe everything you read on simple face value Streetcar, cause I seriously doubt “public mass transit” could ever become economically viable unless realistic costs of fares are paid for by the ridership. Population density or subtracting x number of cars from the roads still will not make up the difference or cover the costs of “public mass transit”.

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MHS: @10:18

Didn’t read the actual study, so I’m not sure, but what I got out of what I did read was that 15 people per acre was where mass transit could reasonably be sold. Maybe “economicaly palatable” would be a better term. By “economicaly viable”, I didn’t mean to imply that mass transit would pay for itself, only that that population density is necessary to garner widespread support.

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Mike @ 10:36:

I kind of haave a problem with that whole line of thought. As I remember high school civics, the two primary functions of state and local government are public safety and infrastructure. If that is true, shouldn’t these special taxes be used to pay for the other stuff and the basic taxes already collected pay for the primary functions?

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I have mixed views on TSPLOST. There are a lot of projects there that would help whole economy. But also a lot of pork. Also, seems to be little private/public partnership type projects. Some seem to call for large financial contributions from main beneficiaries like Emory and CDC for rail project and Beltway developers for Beltway projects, yet they are looking for taxpayer handout rather than reaching into their own (sometimes huge, e.g. Emory) pockets. Socialism for the rich and powerful. As far as public input, it was all just a charade of the proponents marking off their checklist of required forums but not really listening. Probably best if they go back to drawing board.

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VOTE NO! NOT A SINGLE PENNY TO MORE FAILED MARTA REDISTRIBUTION PROGRAMS! NOT A PENNY FOR THE RIDICULOUS BELTLINE BOONDOGGLE! NOT A PENNY FOR THE RIDICULOUS EXPRESS BUS SYSTEM! NOT A PENNY FOR ANY OF THE PROPOSED SHARED RAIL LINES WITH FREIGHT TRAINS! NOT A PENNY FOR ANY TROLLEYS! ONLY IF ALL MONEY IS SPENT ON A COMPLETE REDESIGN OF THE ROADS, BRIDGES AND ESPECIALLY INTERCHANGES, AND, THE REMOVAL OF ALL HOV AND TOLL HOV LANES, SHOULD THIS BE APPROVED!
Look at the safety records! You cannot safely operate passenger rail on shared rails with numerous freight trains! You have to do dedicated no access of any kind rails like the Bullet Train in Japan! And, with the price of real estate, union labor, environmental scum groups and government red tape, IT IS TOO EXPENSIVE TO EVER BE COMPLETED! So, FIX THE ROAD SYSTEM FOR THIS CENTURY AND BEYOND!!!

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As has been mentioned earlier, a certain population density is required for mass transit to really work. You can’t really compare NYC to Atlanta. Manhattan Island is roughly 12 miles long and 2 miles wide, and has a considerably higher population. If Five Points is used as the center of Atlanta and you superimpose Manhattan on it, a comparable area would stretch roughly to Buckhead to the north, Hapeville to the south, Vine Street to the west and Boulevard to the east. That’s not set in stone but it gives a general idea of the apples to oranges comparison.

For those of us who were around back then, Atlanta had trackless trolleys until the late 1950’s or early 1960’s. They were basically electric buses that ran on an overhead grid system. They were ugly and basically had low usage. I don’t remember exactly but I think they were mainly confined to downtown. Before that, which is before my time, there were streetcars. In my opinion, mass transit will only work on a limited scale in Atlanta because everything is so spread out.

On another note, you have two choices with mass transit, it can pay for itself or it can be affordable transportation for the masses; it can’t be both. When MARTA was going through the original referendum, it was sold as affordable transportation for the masses. It also replaced the old Atlanta Transit Company, which by that time was all buses, I believe.

All that being said, I don’t live in the Atlanta T-SPLOST region, so whatever the people down there want to vote for, is their business and none of mine.

When the vote comes up in my region, though, I’ll vote “No”.

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Atlanta’s pizza is better than New Yorks

I know these blogs get outta control, but now you’ve gone too far.

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Streetracer @ 10:49 am

I think your thinking problem is more of how you define what is infrastructure. Buses and trains or like cars. Do you call cars infrastructure? If so, where is my in kind equal welfare subsidy for my cars to match the subsidies being paid to mass welfare transit for buses and trains. Oh yeah, can you throw in a couple drivers but please make’em non-union, okay.

Roads and rails are infrastructure but as for buses, trains and the necessary human operators of them etc. that is not infrastructure.

You might also want to take refresher civics course on the role of government. It has only one obligatory primary function to serve my friend and that is to protect “our rights”, which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, the rest like a free or ridiculously cheap ride that is nowhere near the actual costs thereof… well, that function is optional.

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Aquagirl

Don’t follow college football, so I don’t know. I had an Uncle Claude but he’s been dead for years. Good man, he was.

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Georgia’s about to play a big boy football game for the first time in about ten weeks.

Those dirty ‘dogs are going to get whupped.

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MHS @ 1:13

Infrastructure means that government should provide sufficient roads so that if I have a heart attack EMT’s can get to where I am in a reasonable time.

BTW The phrase “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” is in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. It is a philosophical ideal, not a legal mandate.

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“Infrastructure” isn’t in either the Declaration or the Constitution.

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Hillbilly D

December 3rd, 2011
12:13 pm

“In my opinion, mass transit will only work on a limited scale in Atlanta because everything is so spread out.”

Exactly. You are very correct. Trying to run MARTA local rail and bus lines down every collector street in the not-as-densely-populated suburbs and exurbs outside of I-285 is a waste of time as the density required to make it work is just not there.

“On another note, you have two choices with mass transit, it can pay for itself or it can be affordable transportation for the masses; it can’t be both.”

Very true. MARTA tried to be affordable transportation for the masses and ended up being affordable transportation for the least amongst us by keeping its fares too low and expecting public subsidies from the state that were never going to come to cover the cost of maintenance and operations.

A ride on BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) buses and trains in Northern California can cost as much as $11.00 ONE-WAY for the same ride that costs only $2.50 in Atlanta.

Metro Atlanta can have a transit system that keeps its fares affordable, goes nowhere, has very limited service and run times, caters to the homeless, criminals without cars and the mentally ill and is poorly secured OR it can have a transit system that actually aims to pay for itself, goes everywhere, has extensive service with very frequent run times, caters to the entire public and has excellent security.

This T-SPLOST doesn’t necessarily look to completely address this region’s mobility problems, but looks to be more of a slush fund for politicians and their crony developer buddies.

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LBB @ 3:48

Correct. However “post roads” are. And the ideal of a stable economic system and national defense and public safety dictates that sufficient infrastructure exist to efficiently move goods and troops and EMT’s and cops and firefighters from point A to point B. I do not want to live someplace where if my house is burning the fie department has to take their truck to some train station, wait for the next train, load the truck, ride to a station close to me, unload the truck, and then drive to my house to fight the fire.

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Oopsy, correcting “subsidies” to “subsidized”

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Michael H. Smith

December 3rd, 2011
5:00 pm

“Truth is Last Dem, public mass transit can only work if it is heavily subsidies beyond its cost benefit merits population density will not offset the fiscal facts stacked against what is nanny state “Socialize Transportation”.”

Looks like the State of Georgia is getting ready to make the public make mass transit work whether they want to or not as there are rumors swirling around that the state is plotting a takeover and overhaul of MARTA into a regional transit agency that will serve all five counties in core of Metro Atlanta as opposed to just the current two counties that MARTA currently serves by the end of the decade. The rumors are that the state is planning to take control of MARTA and fold it into GRTA and expand it to serve Cobb, Gwinnett and Clayton Counties.

The $16 billion dollar network of HOT lanes that the state has plans to implement all over Metro Atlanta is a part of a strategy to “motivate” and “compel” single-occupant motorists to both carpool and use future mass transit lines (heavy rail, light rail, commuter rail, bus) that are proposed to run parallel to the region’s freeways.

The only new lanes planned to be added to the freeway system in North Georgia are HOT lanes from here on out with some stretches of freeway (like I-85 in Gwinnett and the Downtown Connector) planned to have as many as two or even three existing lanes in each direction converted to HOT lanes.

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Hillbilly D

December 3rd, 2011
5:53 pm

That’s the thing, the politicians are using an “autonomous” state transportation agency like SRTA (the agency that’s officially responsible for converting the I-85 HOV lanes to HOT lanes) to make the decisions that they don’t want to be held responsible for making.

When SRTA “decides” to convert more existing lanes to HOT lanes, the politicians are just going to say that they have no control over what SRTA does and cannot stop them.

Proof of the state’s serious discussions to apply the I-85 HOT Lane concept to much of the rest of the freeway system in Metro Atlanta can be seen here:
http://dot.ga.gov/informationcenter/programs/studies/managedlanes/Documents/Corridor%20Evaluations%20and%20Recommendations.pdf

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Will the last Democrat

That may be true but sometimes the politicians overestimate themselves and what they can put over on the people.

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Bryan — MARTA Supporter

December 3rd, 2011
5:20 pm

First, you can’t guess worth a crap.

Second, you idiot you are the stupid dummy for making SERIAL EXAGGERATIONS that no other intelligent person would make.

Third, you SERIAL EXAGGERATING stupid idiot who doesn’t know the facts about who receives the majority public assistance from da GUB’MENT your bigotry and to use your ignorant terms of mis-speakingRACISM is showing all over the place: Those of the Caucasian persuasion depend on public assistance and welfare by a far greater number than other ethnicities. You truly are a pathetic inane joke.

Do yourself a favor, get better informed, come back when you aren’t such a miserable backward thinking socialist GUB’MENT dependent neophyte. They way you think it should work is why it has failed so damn miserably.
Getting rid of people like you and the Democrats of years gone by as now it appears the Republicans too, is what has held up progress and real progressive populism reforms from being in this state on every single issue from water to transportation. Private public mass transit will work once the special interests of crony capitalism and socialism have been eliminated.

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Michael H. Smith

December 3rd, 2011
6:16 pm

Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..

December 3rd, 2011
5:49 pm

“Do you think the Republicans will feel the same rejection as the Democrats, when we vote the Libertarians into complete total power over this State?”

The Repubs are in the perfect situation because the Libertarians don’t have any money to run a serious campaign and the Dems are so hated outside of Fulton and DeKalb Counties that it seems as though no one will never vote for them to control state government ever again at this point. Republicans in Georgia know that they could turn the entire Downtown Connector into a toll road and still get re-elected because voters hate Democrats so much and the Libertarians have so few resources as to be a political non-factor except as a wing within the Republican Party.

“I mean what part of “hell no” do these Republicans fail to understand, is it the same part the Democrats don’t get or does Marxism and Corporatism share the same bed at times?”

In America, not only do marxism and corporatism share the same bed but are happily married as corporations have enough power to use marxist means (money to buy off legislators) to make profits.

Hillbilly D

December 3rd, 2011
6:24 pm

Will the last Democrat

“That may be true but sometimes the politicians overestimate themselves and what they can put over on the people.”

But in this case, it’s perfect because most Georgians consider Repubs to be the lesser of two evils. Because the national Democrat party has moved so far left (to Marxism), the Repubs dramatic movement to the left (to Communism/Corporate Welfare) doesn’t seem as evil by comparison.

Many Georgians see the socialist Repubs as really evil, but not nearly as evil as the marxist Dems, which means that, as we’ve seen increasingly in the past decade, the Repubs in Georgia can get away with whatever they want because they have no legitimate opposition party. That means that the Repubs can raise taxes and institute tolls and literally sleep with lobbyists (see former Speaker Glenn Richardson) and big business all they want to their hearts’ desire.

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Oh yeah this one goes out to the inane neophyte who whined about $5 and $6 a gallon gas telling me not to ride something I never use but have paid for more times than I’d like to recall. If I ever do want a train to ride I’d rather hire a real railroad and the right private sector people able to run one controlling my mass transit chew-choos.

Can MARTA can move a ton of people nearly 500 miles on a single gallon of fuel?

http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-csx/projects-and-partnerships/fuel-efficiency/

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Michael H

Diplomacy has never been my strong suite.

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Will the last Democrat @ 7:33

That’s pretty much my point. Back in the day the question was “Why are you a Democrat?”. The answer was, “I’m not really either but that’s what I have to be to get elected”. Now the question is “Why are you a Republican?”. The answer is the same as it was then. Nearly every person who was running for office that I asked that question, always gave the same answer.

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Michael H. Smith

December 3rd, 2011
7:44 pm

“Time to start voting them out and if we get lucky maybe we’ll oust a sufficient number them to make a change for the better.”

But that’s the thing, whenever one lousy politician is voted out, there seems to be at least five, maybe ten more waiting to take their place.

Just the nature of politics (and the huge sums of money often needed to run for office) seems to attract certain types of people (meanly lawyers who have no problem bending the truth as a means to an end) who are only in it for the money and the power.

Most normal people are disgusted by politics, which means that we’ll always keep getting hucksters who are only interested in being in office for the “perks”.

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UGA: Not man enough.

Sorry, couldn’t resist!

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Always Skeptical

December 3rd, 2011
11:16 pm

“inasmuch as so much of the money is going to roads, I would just as soon see it fail so that the OTP gridlock becomes even more unbearable. Maybe you can pony up for some more of those HOT Lanes whydon’tcha…The Beltline and MARTA will survive without it..We’ll find a way with or without you”

Actually, the state has been quietly, but openly, plotting to raid some of the T-SPLOST revenues to pay for the construction of additional HOT Lanes in on I-75 in Cobb and on I-85 in Gwinnett.

Letting and actively making gridlock in the remaining free lanes on I-85 in Gwinnett so unbearable that it makes motorists want to ride future high-frequency transit lines planned to run through the county is part of the state’s newest transportation strategy as the state plots to takeover, operate and expand MARTA into Cobb, Gwinnett & Clayton Counties by the end of the decade. Something tells me that with plans to convert as many three lanes on each direction of I-85 to HOT lanes that the state has no intention of having low ridership be an issue on an expanded (and renamed) MARTA that they will be managing,

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“as the state plots to takeover, operate and expand MARTA”
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Having the state take MARTA away from the incompetent management it now has would be one of the few bright spots of having TSPLOST pass.

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Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)

December 4th, 2011
5:47 am

“as the state plots to takeover, operate and expand MARTA”
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“Having the state take MARTA away from the incompetent management it now has would be one of the few bright spots of having TSPLOST pass.”

The state taking control of and overhauling MARTA would not necessarily be a direct function of the pending T-SPLOST as the state only plans to raid some of the revenues collected from the tax in Cobb and Gwinnett Counties to make either minimal lane additions (two HOT lanes added to the right-of-way on I-75 Northwest of I-285) or conversions of existing lanes (plans to convert as many as three lanes of each direction of I-85) to toll lanes as a means to socially engineer commuting behavior to force people to use transit.

All told, the $7 billion that would be raised by the regional T-SPLOST and the $16 billion cost of the proposed HOT Lane network is but only a fraction of the nearly $50 billion that the state wants to spend on infrastructure in the Atlanta Region overall in the next 20 years.

I don’t know how the powers-that-be plan to get their hands on $50 billion-plus, but one would have to assume that it involves a lot more taxes, tolls, fees and much higher transit fares than has been the norm around these parts.

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Barry – 9:57

So, you agree that if any of these losers who are running for the Republican nomination make it to the White House, we won’t be any better off?

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As long as the government counts the ballots it matters not how many people vote no, this thing will pass. And in Georgia, thanks to our touchscreen paperless voting machines, you can forget ever proving the vote count or even your own vote.

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First of all, the hysteria over “Atlanta traffic” is just that… hysteria. I travel up to six months a year on business, and that includes driving rental cars in other cities all across the country. Even the “great/enlightened/progressive” cities with extensive public transportation have heavy traffic. Why? Because public transportation is worthless for most people.

Sure, for those who actually live in downtown NYC, SF, Chicago or wherever, a bus or train could be useful, when the users deliberately choose to live along a bus line or near a transit station. Some people choose that lifestyle, and that’s fine.

However, for most people, public transportation is worthless because it’s always predicated on the old model of everyone working downtown, which isn’t valid — especially for Atlanta, which didn’t start really growing until after the explosive advent of the automobile. In many cities, people work and live everywhere, moving in all different directions. This means means static fixed public transportation can only serve a tiny miniscule fraction of any city with sizeable suburbs.

According to liberal elitists, people live in suburbs because (a) they have been manipulated by evil developers, and (b) they are stupid. No, I’m afraid not… we live in the suburbs for the usual reasons… we don’t want to live in tiny over-priced boxes in hell-holes of crime, high taxes, lousy schools, and hopelessly corrupt Third-World quality city government. Why on earth suffer all that when we can live in fresher air, with green lawns and peaceful back yards, along with lover taxes, lower crime, better schools, and responsible, efficient, answerable local government?

Traffic is just traffic, and most of us who live in the Atlanta suburbs are adults who understand and accept that traffic is part of the parcel of a better lifestyle. We can get in our automobiles, and — with a little common sense planning — go where we will, when we want. We can go about our business in privacy as we will… which brings us to the heart of the problem… LIBERALS HATE FREEDOM!

Why do the urban liberals scream, rant, and rave about traffic that they really don’t experience themselves? What does it matter to them? Why would they even care if strangers living 30 miles away get caught in a traffic jam?

They don’t. Like so many “issues”, the Left couldn’t care less about the actual “problem,” it’s just an excuse. If you scratch a liberal, you uncover an insane obsessive control freak… a New Puritan who lives in constant bowel-churning distress that somewhere, somehow, someone is doing something that he or she cannot control, and that drives them bonkers.

In the Liberal Utopia, the suburbs and small towns would be dismantled and the land made into nature preserves, and all of us who live there would be forced into high-rise public housing. Our cars would be confiscated, and we would spend hugh portions of our lives waiting on public transportation to take us to the few places we would be allowed to go.

Of course, as crazy and unstable as libverals are, they realize that will never happen… so instead, they constantly search for new rules and new taxes to force on people different from them, to punish us for enjoying our freedom, and to remind us backward Earth-killing unwashed heathens of their innate moral superiority… and of course, to build more rail and “green space” for themselves with Other People’s Money.

So, if you don’t like Atlanta traffic, move somewhere else. Don’t expect normal people willing to pay more for a better lifestyle to subsidize your selfish Lefty fantasies.

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Hanna doesn’t like reality, apparently. Most liberals don’t–they prefer a world run under a command-and-control paradigm, where busybody frustrated ex-student-government-vice-presidents tell everyone else what to do.

Mind your own business, libs.

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Which side is the tolerant side again? I get confused sometimes.

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Whenever a vote is held, I’ll be against it until becomes a truly regional project list rather than a collection of local projects, perhaps good for a locality, but doing little for the metro region.

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Kyle,

Read the UGA report — there are no significant new businesses willing to move here because Georgia has lost its competitive edges… It will be 2020 before we may be able to compete again. All the talk of lowering taxes to attract businesses has led to cuts in education, transportation, and public safety — no business will move its employees here to schools that are regressing, gridlock on the roads, and crime (howcome AJC never writes about gangs?) on the increase. All those tax cuts have led to this..

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jd

Perhaps you would like to tell us what part of the country is thriving. What great new companies are setting up shop in other delightful states? How great the economy is everywhere except Georgia? (Methinks you are a homesick liberal!)

Let’s see. Wold it be the freezinig landlocked northern states? The high tax New England states? The almost bankrupt California? The treeless Nevada? Louisiana with its floods and underwater housing?

Georgia has so much going for it. It has some of the finest universities in the south and much of the country. It has railroads, trucks and seaport cities. The weather is lovely. The finances of the state are better than most. There are willing workers. Georgia is known for its hospitality.

So let us know, jd, how you missed the opportunities in the great state of Georgia. I’d like to know.what causes your blindness.

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Kyle, you really need to do a better job of moderating your bloggers…..Jay would have cut Michael H Smith off long ago…or at least given him a warning…..

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MiltonMan

December 4th, 2011
6:41 pm

“As long as dems control ATL, ATL will not be great city just like Detroit, Newark, New Orleans, etc, etc.”

Dems only control Fulton and DeKalb Counties while Republicans control the rest of the Atlanta Region and the state. The Republicans have been just as complicit in this tax campaign and the historical mismanagement of transportation as have the Democrats (MARTA = Fulton & DeKalb Democrats; GDOT = State Republicans; T-SPLOST = Atlanta Democrats + Georgia Republicans).

The only difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is that Dems are dumb enough to tell you to your face that they want to raise your taxes while Republicans will try and be as sneaky about it as possible claiming the mantle of low taxes and limited government all the while raising taxes and expanding government behind your back at a clip that is not all that far off from the Democrats.

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bigbill

December 4th, 2011
6:14 pm

“What makes me so angry is that this is a bunch of fat cat mostly Republican road builders working with the likewise fat cat mostly Republican Atlanta Chamber of Commerce operators trying to foist a huge one percent sales tax on the entire populace, a tax which imposes extraordinary financial burdens not on the rich, but on the poor and middle class especially, so that these wealthy road builders can continue their fabulous income streams in the face of state budget cutbacks that would otherwise negatively affect them, like all the rest of us!”

You forgot to include the fat cat railbuilders, land spectulators and real estate developers that have gotten in on the act along with the fat cat roadbuilders. Remember Georgia Statehouse Speaker David Ralston’s family trip to Europe to ride trains last Thanksgiving? That trip was paid for by a German trainmaker.

After the rejection of the Outer Perimeter by the public about a decade ago, the powers-that-be (land developers, Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce, Atlanta Regional Commission and even the traditionally road-crazy Georgia Department of Transportation) hitched their hopes and fortunes to passenger rail. International railbuilders know this and have been gaining lots of clout and influence in the Georgia State Capitol as of late almost to the level of the roadbuilders who have traditionally dominated state government.

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Hillbilly, your revision is accepted.

It’s interesting, I’ve skimmed most of the comments; and, while the reasons differ, there seems to be far less than the 51% support mentioned in the piece among the comments. Those that comment aren’t a good sampling; but, the sentiment, coupled with what I think will be a general resistance to an increase in the sales tax seems to indicate the tax won’t be enacted. Though I think that is good given the problems I see in the plan, it doesn’t solve the problems we face.

Then there are the other infrastructure catastrophes waiting around the corner, sewers, bridges and so on.

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Dave

December 4th, 2011
6:51 pm

That shot that you took at Cobb and Gwinnett sort of a giveaway that you live Intown.

Intowners and hardcore transit advocates should actually be kind of pleased about what is going with the developments surrounding the T-SPLOST and the state’s increasing preference for HOT lanes.

I don’t know if you have viewed the T-SPLOST list in detail, but it includes about $589 million for “Enhanced Premium Bus Service” in the I-75/U.S. 41 Northwest Corridor in Cobb County and $95 million for an “I-85 North Transit Corridor Study”.

The state is planning to raid part of Cobb County’s $589 million for that item to build reversible HOT Lanes on Interstates 75 & 575 Northwest outside of I-285. The state is also planning to raid some or most of Gwinnett County’s $95 million for that item to convert one or two more free lanes to HOT Lanes on each direction of I-85 in DeKalb and Gwinnett Counties as a way to force motorists in Northeast Metro Atlanta to either carpool, ride express buses or ride one of the three future rail transit lines that will run parallel to I-85 OTP.

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The state also plans to force people out of their cars to use transit by converting two existing free lanes to HOT Lanes on each direction of the Downtown Connector.

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Dave

Like I’ve said earlier, I don’t live in the Atlanta region, so whatever people vote for there is their business, I will vote against it, when it comes up in my area. I don’t see anything good coming out of it for me and the potential for a whole lot of bad.

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Dave

December 4th, 2011
7:53 pm

“Last Democrat, the problem I see with the HOT lane thing is that the alternative the government wants to force people to use, for the most part, doesn’t exist. I don’t really see people voting to support rail down the 75/85 corridors even with increasing gridlock during rush hours.”

Other than the T-SPLOST, the state doesn’t plan on being too democratic about these transit plans and having them come up for a direct vote as they know that the chances are that the transit-heavy proposal may go over as well as a lead balloon, especially OTP.

For those who have to drive into the city or use the freeways on a regular basis it’s basically going to be a choice: Either pay tolls to use the freeway or ride transit.

To ensure that people use the massive amount of transit that will be built the state is basically creating a huge market for it by making driving on the freeways in a single occupant vehicle a lot more difficult (and costly) than it has been in the past.

Don’t expect to see Cobb and Gwinnett residents be given a choice as the state proceeds forward with their plans.

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No, no, a thousand times NO! I vote in nearly every election. Ring it up, as many times as they try to ram this through I’ll trot down the street and vote NO!

We already pay plenty of taxes for transportation, and we pay extra SPLOST tax for our schools. HOT lanes are an improper and immoral application of public funds, and I’ll vote NO for every transportation tax and State tax increase until this abomination is ended permanently.

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Transit Sales Tax

December 4th, 2011
11:31 pm

“Who will pay for the trains’ operating costs after they are built?……….That will require an ADDITIONAL sales tax, and MARTA proves that it will have to be more than 1% to cover operating and maintenance costs. None of the O&M for the new trains is covered after TSPLOST ends.”

MARTA also proves that trying to keep fares artificially low while waiting for increased public subsidies that will never come severely limits the quality and reach of service that can be provided.

Little, if any, additional public subsidies would be needed if MARTA had been increasing their fares over the years to keep up with the inflationary cost of providing the top-notch service that people expect from an urban transit agency at the core of a metro area of nearly six million people.

Sure, MARTA just raised their fares to a whopping $2.50 one-way, but does anyone around these parts know just how much a one-way ride on BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) in Northern California costs? A one-way ride on BART can cost as much as $11.00 one-way ($10.90 to be exact) if someone is riding from one end of the system, lets say in the East Bay/Oakland area to the other end of the system at the San Francisco International Airport.

Despite a recent increase and fares on MARTA being the highest that they have ever been, a $2.50 one-way fare in 2011-12 just isn’t going to cut it in a political environment where current public subsidies are limited and additional public subsidies are not forthcoming anytime soon, if ever.

Operating and maintenance costs could be covered much better if MARTA had been operating with a zone pricing system like the one that is utilized in the Bay Area. Certain stops on the system, like say, the airport, Five Points, Buckhead, Peachtree Center, etc should be regarded as premium service and should be priced as such to enter and exit the system from those stops.

Fares have absolutely got to be higher, in some cases substantially higher, if the system hopes to be able to provide a much higher level of service, that its the way it is.

If MARTA doesn’t take the reins and try to rehab its poor image and overhaul its operations, then it will not survive in its current form as the state will carry forth with its plans to takeover MARTA and bring in a private operator that will charge substantially higher fares that will cover the cost of operations and maintenance.

This T-SPLOST is totally unnecessary as the cost of implementing new train lines could be financed with bonds paid back with more realistically-priced fares and the cost of improving roads could be financed by taking the one-cent of the gas tax that goes into the general fund and diverting it to go towards road maintenance with the rest of the gas tax.

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Last Dem – You’re right that MARTA should move to a Zone Pricing scheme. However, let’s not compare BART to MARTA. I ride BART every week……The route you just described is nearly as long as MARTA’s entire network and would be the equivalent of taking someone from Cumming to Hartsfield. Furthermore, BART is part of a truly Multi-Modal mass transit operation that allows folks to connect to Muni trolleys/trains/buses in San Francisco’s urban core, plus to CalTrain, etc, at points along the BART line. When I’m in SFO, it’s not uncommon for me to ride BART from the airport to a downtown start-up company (yeah, a job creator in that horrid socialist nest of thieves!), then BART to CalTrain to visit some VC firm on the peninsula, then head back to the airport via CalTrain & BART.

Denver and Dallas got their start in rail transit 30 years after Atlanta and already have more miles available to riders (and in Denver, we’re talking about 1/4 the population of Atlanta!). Both cities are , like Atlanta, without any natural boundaries and full of the kind of exurban sprawl that make liberal city planners hold their noses and Tea Partiers use as a basis for why transit won’t work in Atlanta. It works beautifully in both of them. Ridership has VASTLY exceeded even the rosiest initial projections. And now, both are planning more routes for the coming decades.

I’m rambling…

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Brian,
Denver has no natural boundaries? What do you call the Rocky Mountains?

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Well, I am still quite fond of Atlanta and Georgia. Those of you who complain about this nice place probably do it about everything. It is a personality trait of a loser to never see good in anything.

Some people can work out their problems. Others can’t. If you are miserable in Georgia, then you are probably miserable everywhere.

Being aginst one political move or another is OK. It is investigation for the voter. But running down the place in general usually points to a weak complaining personality.

Sorry, folks, but it is still the old “love it or leave it”. Or…. Go vote for what you want and let officials know what you have in mind. It is better than sqawking endlessly on a blog.

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Michael H. Smith December 3rd, 2011 6:47 pm

Really? Private transit. Take a look at history dummy. Look at New York City to see why private public transit doesn’t work. Green Bus Lines, Command Bus Lines, Jamaica Bus Lines, Queens Surface Corp, Triboro Coach Lines… all were PRIVATE public transit providers and all failed!! They are now part of MTA under the brand MTA Bus. If it didn’t work in NYC where transit is a way of life, why would it work in Atlanta, where the car is king?

“Those of the Caucasian persuasion depend on public assistance and welfare by a far greater number than other ethnicities.”

You probably are right but aren’t there more white people in this country that any other ethnicity? And let’s be real for a sec, when folks are talking about “welfare” and “public assistance” who are they really talking about. Not the white folks out in no mans land rural Georgia. They are talking about inner city Blacks that live “in da hood!”

So again you are trying to be so technically when the average person knows what is being said.

Since you have such a problem with the Democrats AND Republicans… since you want to get rid of capitalism… what do you suggest this country should be run as? I guess if we just made you King of America this would be a great country huh?

You are a real dumb donkey!!

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Chip December 4th, 2011 11:20 am

Actually transit works great in many cities. Could you image NYC without the extensive system they have now? I do agree that most major transit system were build on the premise that all people work downtown. That needs to change but at the same time we don’t need to build trains from one suburb to another (in most situations). Traffic is heavy because there are just a lot of people. Overcrowding. Even if every bus and train were packed during rush hour in Atlanta there would still be heavy traffic. That doesn’t mean that transit doesn’t work.

“LIBERALS HATE FREEDOM!”

Wow really? It really doesn’t matter where you live. If you want to live in the ‘burbs then you do that. I agree with the lower taxes but other than that.. nothing else. Lower crime? Seems to me when I’m looking at news that most of the crime is outside of Atlanta, in your Gwinnett’s and Cobb’s and Clayton’s. If crime is happening they normally trace the perp to one of those nice suburbs.

And why do we worry about traffic that is 30 miles away. Maybe because they are coming into our city, using our resourses then go back to the ‘burbs, all while not contributing to the upkeep. As for your great suburbs remember this. They wouldn’t be great if it wasn’t for the great city that they are around. It would look like the rest of Georgia, country with nothing there. People want do down the city but without the city there would be no suburb. Trust there is much more nicer and more expensive real estate in Atlanta then there is in any suburb in the metro area. You even said it yourself, it is cheaper to live in the ‘burbs than the city!

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Luna, Dear….
“Marta is up to $2.50 for a one way trip and, it seems, service is constantly being trimmed. Marta is being budget-cut to death.” writes Luna. Does Luna have any idea why this frustrating state of affairs exists? Could it be that the $2.50 Luna seems to think is a big price just ain’t enough for a ride that costs more than $10 for MARTA? Who do you think provides the rest of the money to keep Good Ship MARTA afloat? Maybe those who pay the rest of the cost are a little tired of it and maybe they don’t want to spend even more so that you can go anywhere you like at any hour day or night. Ya think? AND, yes, New York, with population density several times ours, has better transit service. BUT (and it’s a big but), NYC has a dedicated tax to fund transit, many times the paying riders packed in like sardines, and they still had a FOUR BILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT last year. And check with a NYCer and ask what typical fares are in NYC transit, then ask why they charge so much.
Enjoy the ride!!

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