No ‘plan B’ for metro Atlanta T-SPLOST? Not so fast
You know you’re facing an uphill electoral battle when your best campaign slogan amounts to: Give us your vote now, or we’ll just come back later to ask you again.
That’s where supporters of a metro Atlanta T-SPLOST find themselves. With eight months to go, there’s not much optimism about the referendum to raise $6.1 billion for regional transportation projects via a 1 percent sales tax.
Two months ago, an opinion poll commissioned by the AJC found just 51 percent of voters in the 10-county region support the tax. Subsequent polling by supporters of the tax, I’m told, confirmed its chances of passing are precarious.
The “yes” campaign appears to be keeping its powder dry until the July 31 vote draws nearer. The experience of plebiscites elsewhere in the country, however, suggests that successful measures begin with higher support, shed voters in the face of “no” campaigns, and hang on to win.
Business leaders at Thursday’s annual meeting of the Metro Atlanta Chamber stressed the lack of a “plan B” for transportation improvements. Without necessarily endorsing the tax, House Speaker David Ralston told them, “I’m afraid that if we’re not successful next year that we’re going to have an even longer and more arduous process to get back to this point again.”
Actually, there is a plan B, or maybe it’s A-1: Delay the vote.
Tax supporters proposed a delay this summer, but they weren’t thinking far enough into the future. I’m not talking about a delay until November, in hopes that Democrats turning out to re-elect President Barack Obama will pass the Republicans’ mass-transit tax while they’re at it.
I mean a delay of a year or more. It’s a good idea, whether you support or oppose the tax.
Also last week, University of Georgia economists forecast sluggish growth in 2012, as the state continues to rebound from a series of burst bubbles. They expect metro Atlanta to fare worse than Georgia’s average, with only the ninth-best employment growth rate among Georgia’s metro areas.
Trying to persuade voters to tax themselves even more, in that environment, is a suicide mission. Businesses poised to move to, or expand within, metro Atlanta may fret about traffic congestion, but I doubt they’re pinning hopes on an altered version of the Beltline.
(To those who say the transportation projects themselves would be an economic boost: Not for a few years, given that much of the money is devoted to transit projects that are far from “shovel ready.” And not if the tax fails in the first place.)
But what about tax opponents? Why go for a delay when the referendum is likely to fail?
If you oppose the tax, period, you probably shouldn’t go for a delay.
If, however, your qualms with the tax concern the project list, you might consider it. Because there’s still a chance the tax, with this project list, will pass. And if it were up to me, the law wouldn’t be amended merely to allow a vote after 2012. It would also allow for — perhaps even require — a revised project list.
I might also insert a mandate to prioritize the potential projects based on cost-benefit analyses. I’d certainly use the extra time to settle on exactly what mode of transit was to be used in, say, Cobb’s U.S. 41 corridor.
It you support the tax, you want it to pass. Even if you don’t, you surely want to ensure the money is well-spent. Either way, if the vote is eight months from now, you stand to be disappointed.
– By Kyle Wingfield
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
139 comments Add your comment
Hillbilly D
December 4th, 2011
1:08 pm
Which side is the tolerant side again? I get confused sometimes.
Dusty
December 4th, 2011
3:06 pm
HillBilly D,
I’m still sticking with the Republican side. Reading what liberals have to say here does not make me want to be a liberal Democrat for tolerance or anything else..
I read a letter from Johnny Isaacson today. He writes a pretty sensible piece. Seems the big committee plan did not pass(surprise!) so they have planned to have another one. Republicans seem the only ones with the slightest interest in cutting expenses and not wiping out our military.. Still sounds like la-te-da for Dems. But that’s Washington.
This SPLOST thing is getting tiresome. Just sounds like a bunch of money to spend on a pig-in-a-poke program! With the money available, maybe we should consider a pot-hole program and finance one at a time. I have a big tire buster right down my street.
I don’t know about “tolerant”. I like sensible better. Let’s try sensible for a change.
Dave
December 4th, 2011
4:05 pm
Whenever a vote is held, I’ll be against it until becomes a truly regional project list rather than a collection of local projects, perhaps good for a locality, but doing little for the metro region.
Dave
December 4th, 2011
4:35 pm
Last Democrat at 7:09 this morning: Good points about their decisions 40 years ago, what are Cobb’s and Gwinnett’s defenses now that they know?
jd
December 4th, 2011
5:39 pm
Kyle,
Read the UGA report — there are no significant new businesses willing to move here because Georgia has lost its competitive edges… It will be 2020 before we may be able to compete again. All the talk of lowering taxes to attract businesses has led to cuts in education, transportation, and public safety — no business will move its employees here to schools that are regressing, gridlock on the roads, and crime (howcome AJC never writes about gangs?) on the increase. All those tax cuts have led to this..
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 4th, 2011
5:46 pm
Dave
December 4th, 2011
4:35 pm
“Last Democrat at 7:09 this morning: Good points about their decisions 40 years ago, what are Cobb’s and Gwinnett’s defenses now that they know?”
From what I’ve been hearing in Cobb, while there’s still a very large contingent of people who want no transit in the county, there’s a also a large and growing contingent of people who want some type of rail transit that connects North Cobb with the Perimeter/Sandy Springs/Dunwoody area.
Many in Cobb prefer a commuter rail line on the existing CSX freight rail right-of-way that actually advances well beyond the Cumberland Mall area and runs the entire length of the county that would help to take some traffic off of a rush-hour gridlocked I-75 outside of I-285, they just don’t want any parts of MARTA with its history of dysfunctional management and operations.
Transit also gets a much warmer reception in Gwinnett than many Intowners believe as I-85 is also often a rush-hour traffic mess, a mess that has been made worse by the conversion of the HOV-2 lanes to HOV-3/HOT lanes. Gwinnettians just don’t want MARTA in the county.
Though with the pending expansion of the Port of Savannah, an expansion which threatens to possibly triple the amount of truck traffic on the roads and much less support for road expansion OTP than many Intowners think, the state has gone into a panic mode of sorts, moving away from planning to use road expansion as a means to alleviate traffic and instead planning to alleviate traffic by “strongly encouraging” and “compelling” people to use transit.
By all appearances, it looks as if the state has no intention of leaving it up to counties to decide whether or not they are going to accept transit. Instead it looks like the state is going to force people to be accepting of transit by strongly pursuing a transportation strategy that includes HOT Lanes and a takeover of MARTA by the end of the decade.
Dusty
December 4th, 2011
6:11 pm
jd
Perhaps you would like to tell us what part of the country is thriving. What great new companies are setting up shop in other delightful states? How great the economy is everywhere except Georgia? (Methinks you are a homesick liberal!)
Let’s see. Wold it be the freezinig landlocked northern states? The high tax New England states? The almost bankrupt California? The treeless Nevada? Louisiana with its floods and underwater housing?
Georgia has so much going for it. It has some of the finest universities in the south and much of the country. It has railroads, trucks and seaport cities. The weather is lovely. The finances of the state are better than most. There are willing workers. Georgia is known for its hospitality.
So let us know, jd, how you missed the opportunities in the great state of Georgia. I’d like to know.what causes your blindness.
bigbill
December 4th, 2011
6:14 pm
What makes me so angry is that this is a bunch of fat cat mostly Republican road builders working with the likewise fat cat mostly Republican Atlanta Chamber of Commerce operators trying to foist a huge one percent sales tax on the entire populace, a tax which imposes extraordinary financial burdens not on the rich, but on the poor and middle class especially, so that these wealthy road builders can continue their fabulous income streams in the face of state budget cutbacks that would otherwise negatively affect them, like all the rest of us! And they seek this huge tax raise in the Atlanta Metro area whose middle class and poor citizens are suffering in this Great Recession while at the same time applauding and supporting their Republican elected Federal, state, and local officials for keeping their pledge to the wacko Grover Norquist to never, ever, ever vote for or support a tax increase of any kind. I guess they think it’s O.K. as long as these Republican businessmen are going to be the main beneficiaries, i.e., the funds from the tax increases will flow directly into their pockets.
Native Atlantan
December 4th, 2011
6:16 pm
Kyle, you really need to do a better job of moderating your bloggers…..Jay would have cut Michael H Smith off long ago…or at least given him a warning…..
MiltonMan
December 4th, 2011
6:41 pm
As long as dems control ATL, ATL will not be great city just like Detroit, Newark, New Orleans, etc, etc.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 4th, 2011
6:51 pm
MiltonMan
December 4th, 2011
6:41 pm
“As long as dems control ATL, ATL will not be great city just like Detroit, Newark, New Orleans, etc, etc.”
Dems only control Fulton and DeKalb Counties while Republicans control the rest of the Atlanta Region and the state. The Republicans have been just as complicit in this tax campaign and the historical mismanagement of transportation as have the Democrats (MARTA = Fulton & DeKalb Democrats; GDOT = State Republicans; T-SPLOST = Atlanta Democrats + Georgia Republicans).
The only difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is that Dems are dumb enough to tell you to your face that they want to raise your taxes while Republicans will try and be as sneaky about it as possible claiming the mantle of low taxes and limited government all the while raising taxes and expanding government behind your back at a clip that is not all that far off from the Democrats.
Dave
December 4th, 2011
6:51 pm
Last Democrat, how’d you know I live intown (other than the shot I took about Cobb and Gwinnett)? Early on, I was enthused about the regional solution to Metro Atlanta transportation problems given the State’s unwillingness to deal with them. The more the plan evolves, it seems that it is the result of Balkanization on a smaller scale than we’ve seen from from state government. Some for me, some for you, the hell with actual overall planning.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 4th, 2011
7:08 pm
bigbill
December 4th, 2011
6:14 pm
“What makes me so angry is that this is a bunch of fat cat mostly Republican road builders working with the likewise fat cat mostly Republican Atlanta Chamber of Commerce operators trying to foist a huge one percent sales tax on the entire populace, a tax which imposes extraordinary financial burdens not on the rich, but on the poor and middle class especially, so that these wealthy road builders can continue their fabulous income streams in the face of state budget cutbacks that would otherwise negatively affect them, like all the rest of us!”
You forgot to include the fat cat railbuilders, land spectulators and real estate developers that have gotten in on the act along with the fat cat roadbuilders. Remember Georgia Statehouse Speaker David Ralston’s family trip to Europe to ride trains last Thanksgiving? That trip was paid for by a German trainmaker.
After the rejection of the Outer Perimeter by the public about a decade ago, the powers-that-be (land developers, Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce, Atlanta Regional Commission and even the traditionally road-crazy Georgia Department of Transportation) hitched their hopes and fortunes to passenger rail. International railbuilders know this and have been gaining lots of clout and influence in the Georgia State Capitol as of late almost to the level of the roadbuilders who have traditionally dominated state government.
Hillbilly D
December 4th, 2011
7:14 pm
Dave
I think a more accurate depiction would be “some for my buddy to make money on, some for your buddy to make money on”.
Dave
December 4th, 2011
7:28 pm
Hillbilly, your revision is accepted.
It’s interesting, I’ve skimmed most of the comments; and, while the reasons differ, there seems to be far less than the 51% support mentioned in the piece among the comments. Those that comment aren’t a good sampling; but, the sentiment, coupled with what I think will be a general resistance to an increase in the sales tax seems to indicate the tax won’t be enacted. Though I think that is good given the problems I see in the plan, it doesn’t solve the problems we face.
Then there are the other infrastructure catastrophes waiting around the corner, sewers, bridges and so on.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
December 4th, 2011
7:29 pm
Jay would have cut Michael H Smith off long ago…
———-
Jay does seem to have a tendency to ban folks who regularly embarrass the libtard “regulars”.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 4th, 2011
7:29 pm
Dave
December 4th, 2011
6:51 pm
That shot that you took at Cobb and Gwinnett sort of a giveaway that you live Intown.
Intowners and hardcore transit advocates should actually be kind of pleased about what is going with the developments surrounding the T-SPLOST and the state’s increasing preference for HOT lanes.
I don’t know if you have viewed the T-SPLOST list in detail, but it includes about $589 million for “Enhanced Premium Bus Service” in the I-75/U.S. 41 Northwest Corridor in Cobb County and $95 million for an “I-85 North Transit Corridor Study”.
The state is planning to raid part of Cobb County’s $589 million for that item to build reversible HOT Lanes on Interstates 75 & 575 Northwest outside of I-285. The state is also planning to raid some or most of Gwinnett County’s $95 million for that item to convert one or two more free lanes to HOT Lanes on each direction of I-85 in DeKalb and Gwinnett Counties as a way to force motorists in Northeast Metro Atlanta to either carpool, ride express buses or ride one of the three future rail transit lines that will run parallel to I-85 OTP.
@@
December 4th, 2011
7:31 pm
Michael H. Smith’s last comment was at 8:48 A.M.
Native Atlantan comes in at 6:16 P.M. to complain???
I enjoy reading MHS’s comments…they’ve got substance.
IHTB
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 4th, 2011
7:46 pm
The state also plans to force people out of their cars to use transit by converting two existing free lanes to HOT Lanes on each direction of the Downtown Connector.
Dave
December 4th, 2011
7:53 pm
Last Democrat, the problem I see with the HOT lane thing is that the alternative the government wants to force people to use, for the most part, doesn’t exist. I don’t really see people voting to support rail down the 75/85 corridors even with increasing gridlock during rush hours. If what you say pans out, tens of thousands of people will sit in traffic and fume (pun intended), and still oppose “public transit” spending.
Hillbilly D
December 4th, 2011
8:02 pm
Dave
Like I’ve said earlier, I don’t live in the Atlanta region, so whatever people vote for there is their business, I will vote against it, when it comes up in my area. I don’t see anything good coming out of it for me and the potential for a whole lot of bad.
No Artificial Flavors
December 4th, 2011
8:32 pm
Here is plan B. Step 1, Defeat the TSPLOST. Step 2, raise the gas tax by a penny or two, by the legislature of course, one that needs to man up and make decisions instead of passing the buck and kicking the can.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 4th, 2011
8:39 pm
Dave
December 4th, 2011
7:53 pm
“Last Democrat, the problem I see with the HOT lane thing is that the alternative the government wants to force people to use, for the most part, doesn’t exist. I don’t really see people voting to support rail down the 75/85 corridors even with increasing gridlock during rush hours.”
Other than the T-SPLOST, the state doesn’t plan on being too democratic about these transit plans and having them come up for a direct vote as they know that the chances are that the transit-heavy proposal may go over as well as a lead balloon, especially OTP.
For those who have to drive into the city or use the freeways on a regular basis it’s basically going to be a choice: Either pay tolls to use the freeway or ride transit.
To ensure that people use the massive amount of transit that will be built the state is basically creating a huge market for it by making driving on the freeways in a single occupant vehicle a lot more difficult (and costly) than it has been in the past.
Don’t expect to see Cobb and Gwinnett residents be given a choice as the state proceeds forward with their plans.
Transit Sales Tax
December 4th, 2011
11:31 pm
Who will pay for the trains’ operating costs after they are built?
That will require an ADDITIONAL sales tax, and MARTA proves that it will have to be more than 1% to cover operating and maintenance costs. None of the O&M for the new trains is covered after TSPLOST ends.
Our legislators are asking us to approve a new forever sales tax, as well as the TIA construction tax if we vote in TSPLOST. That’s at least a 2% tax. Once built they figure we’ll just have to pay. The Governor has formed a committee to figure out how to get the O&M tax money, but he doesn’t call it by that name.
A little transparency would seem fair here. Why are legislators not leveling about the ongoing costs that are built into TSPLOST? Why is the Governor convening a “governance” committee to tax us without disclosing the real mission.
Yes, Kyle, delay the TSPLOST until we know what it really buys !
DawgDad
December 5th, 2011
1:16 am
No, no, a thousand times NO! I vote in nearly every election. Ring it up, as many times as they try to ram this through I’ll trot down the street and vote NO!
We already pay plenty of taxes for transportation, and we pay extra SPLOST tax for our schools. HOT lanes are an improper and immoral application of public funds, and I’ll vote NO for every transportation tax and State tax increase until this abomination is ended permanently.
DawgDad
December 5th, 2011
1:23 am
There is no such thing as a “free lane”, taxpayers pay for them.
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 5th, 2011
1:42 am
Transit Sales Tax
December 4th, 2011
11:31 pm
“Who will pay for the trains’ operating costs after they are built?……….That will require an ADDITIONAL sales tax, and MARTA proves that it will have to be more than 1% to cover operating and maintenance costs. None of the O&M for the new trains is covered after TSPLOST ends.”
MARTA also proves that trying to keep fares artificially low while waiting for increased public subsidies that will never come severely limits the quality and reach of service that can be provided.
Little, if any, additional public subsidies would be needed if MARTA had been increasing their fares over the years to keep up with the inflationary cost of providing the top-notch service that people expect from an urban transit agency at the core of a metro area of nearly six million people.
Sure, MARTA just raised their fares to a whopping $2.50 one-way, but does anyone around these parts know just how much a one-way ride on BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) in Northern California costs? A one-way ride on BART can cost as much as $11.00 one-way ($10.90 to be exact) if someone is riding from one end of the system, lets say in the East Bay/Oakland area to the other end of the system at the San Francisco International Airport.
Despite a recent increase and fares on MARTA being the highest that they have ever been, a $2.50 one-way fare in 2011-12 just isn’t going to cut it in a political environment where current public subsidies are limited and additional public subsidies are not forthcoming anytime soon, if ever.
Operating and maintenance costs could be covered much better if MARTA had been operating with a zone pricing system like the one that is utilized in the Bay Area. Certain stops on the system, like say, the airport, Five Points, Buckhead, Peachtree Center, etc should be regarded as premium service and should be priced as such to enter and exit the system from those stops.
Fares have absolutely got to be higher, in some cases substantially higher, if the system hopes to be able to provide a much higher level of service, that its the way it is.
If MARTA doesn’t take the reins and try to rehab its poor image and overhaul its operations, then it will not survive in its current form as the state will carry forth with its plans to takeover MARTA and bring in a private operator that will charge substantially higher fares that will cover the cost of operations and maintenance.
This T-SPLOST is totally unnecessary as the cost of implementing new train lines could be financed with bonds paid back with more realistically-priced fares and the cost of improving roads could be financed by taking the one-cent of the gas tax that goes into the general fund and diverting it to go towards road maintenance with the rest of the gas tax.
Brian
December 5th, 2011
8:40 am
My family and I were in GA for Thanksgiving to visit family. It’s been 9 years since we moved from the Metro Area and our memories are still fond of the great times we had there….with several recurring nightmares, one of which is the godawful traffic , the second of which is the total lack of progressive leadership in the state. Since de-segregation, this is so typical of Georgia’s fights….In-town vs OTP; White vs Black; pinko-lib vs fascist conservative; metro vs rural GA. It never ends.
We’d never move back to Atlanta willingly because of that. And we LOVE so much about Atlanta and have our families there as well. So, if someone whose heart is attached to Atlanta won’t move back, what do you think REAL job creators (not hedge fund managers, etc) are thinking? They’re thinking they’ll take their ideas and their capital and their jobs to Charlotte and Dallas and Denver and Austin.
We’re experiencing a fundamental and historic shift in the kinds of jobs we can expect to pay a good , honest wage in America. None of the kind that will pay a good wage, let alone an outstanding wage, will be coming to Atlanta because of precisely the crap spewed all over this message board. And that’s sad…..Atlanta is America’s next Detroit. And it didn’t need to be that way.
Brian
December 5th, 2011
8:49 am
Last Dem – You’re right that MARTA should move to a Zone Pricing scheme. However, let’s not compare BART to MARTA. I ride BART every week……The route you just described is nearly as long as MARTA’s entire network and would be the equivalent of taking someone from Cumming to Hartsfield. Furthermore, BART is part of a truly Multi-Modal mass transit operation that allows folks to connect to Muni trolleys/trains/buses in San Francisco’s urban core, plus to CalTrain, etc, at points along the BART line. When I’m in SFO, it’s not uncommon for me to ride BART from the airport to a downtown start-up company (yeah, a job creator in that horrid socialist nest of thieves!), then BART to CalTrain to visit some VC firm on the peninsula, then head back to the airport via CalTrain & BART.
Denver and Dallas got their start in rail transit 30 years after Atlanta and already have more miles available to riders (and in Denver, we’re talking about 1/4 the population of Atlanta!). Both cities are , like Atlanta, without any natural boundaries and full of the kind of exurban sprawl that make liberal city planners hold their noses and Tea Partiers use as a basis for why transit won’t work in Atlanta. It works beautifully in both of them. Ridership has VASTLY exceeded even the rosiest initial projections. And now, both are planning more routes for the coming decades.
I’m rambling…
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?.....
December 5th, 2011
8:58 am
No, Brian you’re not rambling as you make some very good points. It’s just that I felt the pressing need to site BART as an example of a system that has set its fares high enough to support the service because of the widely held local misperception, by both opponents and proponents alike, that transit fares have to be priced dirt cheap with the rest of the cost of operations and maintenance being made up through sales tax increases that at the state level that are never going to come into being in a strongly libertarian anti-tax political climate such as the one that exists in Georgia.
BART is an example of a transit system that at least attempts to pay for itself at the farebox contrary to local popular belief in Georgia that transit can only be subsidized with politically unviable tax increases.
Frontman
December 5th, 2011
9:10 am
Brian,
Denver has no natural boundaries? What do you call the Rocky Mountains?
HDB
December 5th, 2011
9:35 am
“What many people here have failed to note is that for the past 41 years, residents of Cobb, Gwinnett, Clayton, Douglas, Henry, et. al., have gotten a free ride at the expense of the residents of Fulton and DeKalb. If you note the license tags at Indian Creek, Kensington and Hamilton Holmes, you’ll note that the preponderance of those cars reside OUTSIDE of the MARTA zone!! They don’t pay to park…and they ride at an extrordinarily inexpensive fare. Now, via-T-SPLOST, the residents outside of the MARTA area will make up for their 41-year free ride!! Changing I-75/85 to HOT lanes will divert a lot of traffic to MARTA…….
Let’s see how you feel THEN……and maybe many attitudes will change!!”
What I just expounded upon is the attitude of many in both Fulton and DeKalb counties as to what many feel about the lack of vision of the past…..and the animosity of those now who want to maintain the “old world order”; there HAS to be a more cooperative effort of the REGION to solve traffic issues. Zone fare on MARTA would work, primarily on the North/South lines to Hartsfield; creating inter-modal transportation hubs OTP that lead to MARTA for those who work downtown are definitely needed!! We HAVE to quit living in the past…….and develop a vision for the FUTURE…..or else, Atlanta will be like Dalton……
Dusty
December 5th, 2011
10:37 am
Well, I am still quite fond of Atlanta and Georgia. Those of you who complain about this nice place probably do it about everything. It is a personality trait of a loser to never see good in anything.
Some people can work out their problems. Others can’t. If you are miserable in Georgia, then you are probably miserable everywhere.
Being aginst one political move or another is OK. It is investigation for the voter. But running down the place in general usually points to a weak complaining personality.
Sorry, folks, but it is still the old “love it or leave it”. Or…. Go vote for what you want and let officials know what you have in mind. It is better than sqawking endlessly on a blog.
Brian
December 5th, 2011
11:35 am
Frontman- you don’t know Denver’s geography, I guess. The Front Range is 8+mi from Downtown Denver and there are literally NO natural boundaries in the other 3 directions. Furthermore, much of the I-70 and US285 corridors are becoming bedroom communities to Denver -even Summit County.
Bryan -- MARTA Supporter
December 5th, 2011
12:42 pm
Michael H. Smith December 3rd, 2011 6:47 pm
Really? Private transit. Take a look at history dummy. Look at New York City to see why private public transit doesn’t work. Green Bus Lines, Command Bus Lines, Jamaica Bus Lines, Queens Surface Corp, Triboro Coach Lines… all were PRIVATE public transit providers and all failed!! They are now part of MTA under the brand MTA Bus. If it didn’t work in NYC where transit is a way of life, why would it work in Atlanta, where the car is king?
“Those of the Caucasian persuasion depend on public assistance and welfare by a far greater number than other ethnicities.”
You probably are right but aren’t there more white people in this country that any other ethnicity? And let’s be real for a sec, when folks are talking about “welfare” and “public assistance” who are they really talking about. Not the white folks out in no mans land rural Georgia. They are talking about inner city Blacks that live “in da hood!”
So again you are trying to be so technically when the average person knows what is being said.
Since you have such a problem with the Democrats AND Republicans… since you want to get rid of capitalism… what do you suggest this country should be run as? I guess if we just made you King of America this would be a great country huh?
You are a real dumb donkey!!
Bryan -- MARTA Supporter
December 5th, 2011
1:04 pm
Will the last Democrat in Georgia please turn off the lights?…..
December 4th, 2011 7:09 am
“…so you can’t hold the lack of urban vision against the people of 40 years ago.”
Actually you can. When MARTA was just an idea before any referendums the leaders of that time had a vision of what MARTA would be and what the area COULD be with a built system.
I agree know one could have actually predicted that Atlanta would be what it is today but the leader of that time had a vision of what it could be. Just because those areas would have joined didn’t mean MARTA rail would have been built out there right at that time. But with support and vision there would have been development with the rail system in mind versus now where the development is there and now the rail has to be built AROUND what is already there, which makes expansion more difficult.
I agree that boosters of that time probably look at having a subway and big league teams as a way to have the area “seem” like a big city but that’s actually what happened. People saw all the great things that Atlanta offered and came. There was a vision and a goal. The people of Clayton, Cobb, and Gwinnett DID NOT have a vision of success and now pay for it with traffic nightmares, increased crime (WITHOUT MARTA), and still no real vision to unify the area as one region in regards to transit.
Bryan -- MARTA Supporter
December 5th, 2011
1:50 pm
Chip December 4th, 2011 11:20 am
Actually transit works great in many cities. Could you image NYC without the extensive system they have now? I do agree that most major transit system were build on the premise that all people work downtown. That needs to change but at the same time we don’t need to build trains from one suburb to another (in most situations). Traffic is heavy because there are just a lot of people. Overcrowding. Even if every bus and train were packed during rush hour in Atlanta there would still be heavy traffic. That doesn’t mean that transit doesn’t work.
“LIBERALS HATE FREEDOM!”
Wow really? It really doesn’t matter where you live. If you want to live in the ‘burbs then you do that. I agree with the lower taxes but other than that.. nothing else. Lower crime? Seems to me when I’m looking at news that most of the crime is outside of Atlanta, in your Gwinnett’s and Cobb’s and Clayton’s. If crime is happening they normally trace the perp to one of those nice suburbs.
And why do we worry about traffic that is 30 miles away. Maybe because they are coming into our city, using our resourses then go back to the ‘burbs, all while not contributing to the upkeep. As for your great suburbs remember this. They wouldn’t be great if it wasn’t for the great city that they are around. It would look like the rest of Georgia, country with nothing there. People want do down the city but without the city there would be no suburb. Trust there is much more nicer and more expensive real estate in Atlanta then there is in any suburb in the metro area. You even said it yourself, it is cheaper to live in the ‘burbs than the city!
Bryan -- MARTA Supporter
December 5th, 2011
1:56 pm
Lil’ Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
December 3rd, 2011 3:49 pm
Stop using our money to pay for your roads. What you need to do is get everyone that lives on YOUR street pay for the upkeep. Let’s see if you’ll can come up with the thousands of dollars it takes. I bet you’ll want some assistance then.
Bigglars
December 5th, 2011
5:19 pm
Luna, Dear….
“Marta is up to $2.50 for a one way trip and, it seems, service is constantly being trimmed. Marta is being budget-cut to death.” writes Luna. Does Luna have any idea why this frustrating state of affairs exists? Could it be that the $2.50 Luna seems to think is a big price just ain’t enough for a ride that costs more than $10 for MARTA? Who do you think provides the rest of the money to keep Good Ship MARTA afloat? Maybe those who pay the rest of the cost are a little tired of it and maybe they don’t want to spend even more so that you can go anywhere you like at any hour day or night. Ya think? AND, yes, New York, with population density several times ours, has better transit service. BUT (and it’s a big but), NYC has a dedicated tax to fund transit, many times the paying riders packed in like sardines, and they still had a FOUR BILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT last year. And check with a NYCer and ask what typical fares are in NYC transit, then ask why they charge so much.
Enjoy the ride!!