T-SPLOST list doesn’t spend the money where the traffic is

On a recent trip to Chattanooga, I noticed something they do up there that makes a great deal of sense. It was on the Interstates but could probably also apply to some of the larger surface streets. When you get close to a junction, they have the number of the Interstate, with the shield, painted in the corresponding lane that you need to be in.

A great many people passing through, or in a section of town that they don’t normally frequent, spend time trying to get in the right lane, or out of the wrong one, usually at the last minute because of poor signage, confusion, or just not being familiar with the area.

Would this cure Atlanta’s traffic problems? Of course not, but it would involve little cost, relatively speaking, and might help what traffic is on a particular road, flow more smoothly..

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Hillbilly:

A great many people passing through, or in a section of town that they don’t normally frequent, spend time trying to get in the right lane, or out of the wrong one, usually at the last minute because of poor signage, confusion, or just not being familiar with the area.

I’ve run up on people who’ve come to a dead stop on the interstate hoping that someone will let them navigate into the exit lane.

Unbelievable! In every instance, they were women. Why they don’t just take the next exit is inconceivable to me.

And here I thought it was men who didn’t like backtracking.

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I am wondering WHY Burrell Ellis would want to “improve mobility where its already comparatively good” and ignore places where traffic is heaviest? Do we need to follow the money here?

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Kyle Wingfield

October 7th, 2011
6:25 pm

“If you favor transit as a solution to traffic problems, you should be disappointed in the transit projects that made the cut.”

I do favor transit as one part of a MULTIMODAL solution to the Atlanta Region’s massive traffic problems and I am terribly disappointed in the transit projects that made the cut.

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Local transit service like MARTA, CCT. GCT, C-Tran, etc, should be paid for with bonds paid back over time with fares high-enough to pay the bonds back which would be a great alternative to sitting around, doing nothing and waiting for pigs by expecting a conservative state government to substantially raise taxes in a volatile political and economic climate.

Using the funding approach we have now of extremely low fares combined with the expectation of tax increases that never seem to come, we have gotten nothing since the Olympics and we will continue to take forever to get nothing substantial done with transportation.

Selling bonds to investors and paying back those bonds with higher fares and tolls to build the transit lines and roadways we need to get this town back moving could bring about these critically-needed projects sometime this century.

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Don’t know much about MARTA, but from what I’ve heard and read, it’s transportation for lower-income residents.

When it was originally being voted on back in 68-69 or whenever it was (the ol’ memory ain’t what it once was), it was sold as affordable transportation for the masses. They also said the 1 cent sales tax would only last 10 years.

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Kyle Wingfield

October 7th, 2011
6:25 pm

Problems with MARTA remain the same (Namely the people,union&politicians involved) and as are the rest with mass trans in general but when trying to compare mass trans that has limited mobility, to roads that offer connection to what could be the means of unlimited travel&freedom of mobility, mass trans loses every time.

Then there is the issue of use limited to a few as opposed to use offered to a great many – everyone in some way or another depends on a road for something e.g. travel, or for a good or service they might buy. Otherwise, NOT everyone depends on mass trans for travel, or for a good or service they might buy. The argument that mass transit is just as important as roads are to the population en mass, is “a dog that just won’t hunt”.

I’d say you are correct in your opening statement concerning MARTA, Kyle.

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Why would anyone from DeKalb support the new tax as it stands now? The Emory ATLANTA rail line? Lol. Those 500 people in DeKalb that will benefit are excited, the rest of us, not so much.

You think DeKalb residents care about traffic in Cobb County? Cobb could certainly care less about DeKalb. How about we just vote no. Stuff it Cobb and Gwinnett.

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Here’s the problem:

MARTA should already be im most places that we are trying to extend it now. The Cobb line should be built. Same for the Gwinnett line. A line to Emory should be there already too. The I-20 line … built already. But because of the racist people of that time so worried about “crime” they voted no. No vision for the future. Now the same type of people are putting down transit to focus on roads, which obviously hasn’t worked. Most major companies move into an area based on a number of figures, which do include transit, specifically rail transit.

I don’t support light rail transit. It’s slow and requires a transfer to the MARTA rail that is already there. That will discourage riders. As much as I want expanded transit the new tax isn’t going to pass. We need a tax just for transit. If these surrounding counties want to keep being stuck in traffic let them. Someone said once you get inside 285 traffic opens up. Yeah… because of MARTA! I favor a tax for Fulton and Dekalb. Let’s support MARTA. Pay 2 cents and get them some money since the conservative suburbs and the state won’t. Let have an expanded rail network and better bus system where it is needed in Fulton/Dekalb. Let those idiots be stuck in traffic. Let’s make them pay to come into the city and their buses. Stop coming to Atlanta for your jobs and entertainment. Stay in the burbs and see how your quality of life falls.

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“another $132 million for studying future transit along 400 and 85″

traffic is bad,
HOT lane makes it worse,
trains won’t be built with the TSPLOST,
land will be purchased at greater-than-appraised prices,
former politicians will be paid as “consultants” on no-bid contracts

ok – now send me the $132 million, please.

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Wow Kyle, so building and expanding roads at the expense of mass transit is really going to solve our congestion problems. We tried that 30 years ago with “Freeing the Freeways” and guess what? Traffic got worse due to induced demand thanks to the additional lane miles.

Maybe you need to research that era first before you harp on building our way out of congestion.

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So Jay in your infinite wisdom how would you go about funding rail transit in this city? Think we’re ever going to get the federal/state/local funding required to build a “complete” system like MARTA was back in the ’60s? Guess again. Everything is an incremental investment process these days. Want rail? Unfortunately we have to build it one link at a time. Will it serve everyone? No but you have to start somewhere.

As a rail transit advocate this list does disappoint me. We agree on that much. However, this list should be 100 percent rail. Roads are a waste of money. We can no longer afford to pander to the Cobb counties of the world and hope rail magically appears in the meantime. You drives car off the lot and it immediately drops in value. You add lanes and you are gauranteeing more congestion.

Let’s try being visionary for a change.

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ATL Planner

October 7th, 2011
10:31 pm

“Wow Kyle, so building and expanding roads at the expense of mass transit is really going to solve our congestion problems. We tried that 30 years ago with “Freeing the Freeways” and guess what? Traffic got worse due to induced demand thanks to the additional lane miles….Maybe you need to research that era first before you harp on building our way out of congestion.”

That statement is very true, but is only part of the story as it wasn’t just increased demand in response to the widening of the freeway system, but also explosive population growth that made traffic worse.

When the “Freeing the Freeways” project was completed in the late 1980s, it was meant to increase the freeway/road infrastructure to better accommodate the 2.9 million people that were living in the Atlanta Region circa-1990.

Fast-forward over 20 years later and the population of the Atlanta Region has DOUBLED to 5.8 million people circa-2011.

That’s means nearly six million people are using the same transportation infrastructure that was only intended to serve three million people.

Not all of those three million additional people moved to Atlanta just to use the erstwhile-expanded road, but many of them moved here for the job market, the much lower cost-of-living (cheaper housing than up north), the weather, the scenery, the central location relative to the densely-populated Northeast Corridor and the better opportunities relative to the post-industrial Rustbelt economies of the Great Lakes states and the Upper Midwest.

100 percent population growth and three million more people in the last 20 years and we’re still barely coping with what we had in 1990 with few new transit lines or roads.

You are correct that we can’t just build our way out of this mess, but improving congestion does require a multimodal solution which features improvements to BOTH transit and roads as opposed to the intensifying do-nothing approach that we’ve employed with increasing non-success over the last 15 years since the end of the Olympics.

Other states like Texas, Florida and North Carolina have invested heavily in their transportation infrastructures in varying degrees from a roads-only approach (Houston) to a more balanced approach that includes more transit (Dallas and Charlotte), but no matter whether they invested heavily in just roads, or just transit or both roads and transit, they still made very substantial investments in their transportation infrastructures during a period of explosive growth while Atlanta basically did nothing during that same period and continues to employ the same do-nothing approach even after the “Chickens have come home to roost”.

Both the major Texas cities are reaping the rewards of making heavy investments in their transportation infrastructures during a very slow economic recovery as Dallas gained 50,000 new jobs and Houston gained 65,000 new jobs in the past year.

Meanwhile, Atlanta, whom has invested very little, if next-to-nothing in its transportation infrastructure over the last 15 years, LOST 30,000 jobs over the past year, with no major metro area (not even Detroit) even coming close.

An almost total lack-of-infrastructure investment wasn’t the only reason that Atlanta’s economic recovery is still stuck in reverse, but the widely held perception that Atlanta refuses to invest even token amounts in its infrastructure (transportation, education, water) during an era when other Sunbelt and continental competitors are ACTIVELY and AGGRESSIVELY continuing to invest in theirs is a very major reason that the local economy is sputtering so badly.

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I wonder why opponents of mass transit always insist it be self supporting? If the road system was treated that way, very few could afford to drive on them.

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We do not want to ride trains or buses. We want our cars. Period.

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I’ll be voting No on T-SPLOST when it is on the ballot next summer. When you have a bunch of elected officials that care about one thing and one thing only, money going into their pockets, it is hard to respect any of the garbage. I drive on GA400 everyday, in the beginning of the week my drive takes me 45 minutes to one hour and by the end of the week it is down to about 25-35 minutes. Stop trying to build new rail lines and use the ones that have already been laid down years ago. You’ll end up spending less money and helping out more people. This isn’t a city of transportation, its a city that will end up being like Idiocracy!

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First TSPLOST is a ridiculous plan and I will vote no. All it is now is a political pork project list not worthy of consideration. If we really want to try to solve traffic problems then we need to address the real issues and design roads to not concentrate car traffic and truck traffic into choke points this plan does nothing for that. Next remove all transit projects from it and all recreational projects. Both should stand on their own merits. I will support a comprehensive “regional” approach to mass transit. MARTA could form the basis but it is run so poorly it would need to be drastically reorganized. It you have ever tried to map a mass transit route to get from Marietta to Norcross you know what I mean. It can take over 5 hours by buss. The reason this will never happen is all the “local” governments want to maintain their little empires so a comprehensive transit plan will never happen, at least in my lifetime.

LAST do us all a favor and vote all incumbents out of office. A clean house will be a good thing.

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STOP SPENDING NOW….YOU BUNCH OF SOCIALIST LIBERALS…!!!! WE NEED TO CUT SPENDING…!!!!! Sit in your cars for 2-1/2 hours head in to work and 3 hours headed home……AT LEAST YOU WOULDN’T BE SOCIALIST HYPOCRITS……!!!!!!!!

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Kyle, obviously you have never driven on I-20 or checked the traffic cams during rush hour, but traffic is pretty bad between 285 and Stonecrest Mall exit. The heavy rail extension would serve an area with heavy traffic and at least the people there WANT some type of alternative. If Cobb and Gwinnett want an alternative other than HOT lanes, then they need to start showing it! Also, you can complain about the Clifton Corridor, but the Emory/CDC area is the largest job center in Atlanta that has no direct interstate access AND no transit access. The traffic around that area is pretty bad and a MARTA rail extension is much needed.

Also, it’s obvious you have never been to a Roundtable meeting, because if you did go and asked the question: “Why is more transit not on the list”? The answer is… “From what we have gathered, if we increase the transit portion more than 55%, we will lose the suburban vote”. Well, there you go! So why not give the transit projects to the people that want it (in-town communities/Fulton and Dekalb) and give road projects to Cobb, Gwinnett, etc? That is probably why the project list looks like it does.

If more people in the suburbs wanted commuter rail, they would 1. vote people in who could make it happen and 2. express how they feel to their local officials… but clearly they haven’t done that. I also agree commuter rail makes sense for Cobb, Gwinnett, Cherokee, etc… the Beltline makes sense for the city of Atlanta and continued MARTA heavy rail expansions make sense for Fulton and Dekalb.

Finally, a lot of you have some nerve to complain about the Beltline and MARTA repairs/expansions on the list… did you forget that Fulton and Dekalb have been paying one cent for MARTA for over 30 years and if this transportation tax passes we will be paying TWO cents while everyone else will be paying only one? For TWO cents we better get portions of the Beltline funded and MARTA repairs/expansions!!!

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Here’s the problem:

MARTA should already be im most places that we are trying to extend it now. The Cobb line should be built. Same for the Gwinnett line. A line to Emory should be there already too. The I-20 line … built already. But because of the racist people of that time so worried about “crime” they voted no. No vision for the future. Now the same type of people are putting down transit to focus on roads, which obviously hasn’t worked. Most major companies move into an area based on a number of figures, which do include transit, specifically rail transit.

I don’t support light rail transit. It’s slow and requires a transfer to the MARTA rail that is already there. That will discourage riders. As much as I want expanded transit the new tax isn’t going to pass. We need a tax just for transit. If these surrounding counties want to keep being stuck in traffic let them. Someone said once you get inside 285 traffic opens up. Yeah… because of MARTA! I favor a tax for Fulton and Dekalb. Let’s support MARTA. Pay 2 cents and get them some money since the conservative suburbs and the state won’t. Let have an expanded rail network and better bus system where it is needed in Fulton/Dekalb. Let those idiots be stuck in traffic. Let’s make them pay to come into the city and their buses. Stop coming to Atlanta for your jobs and entertainment. Stay in the burbs and see how your quality of life falls.

@ Bryan the MARTA Supporter

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As long as our conservative, right wing political leaders are in charge NOTHING will happen to help relieve traffic in this city. Why? Because those near-sighted leaders hate Atlanta and want to strangle it to death.

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Yep, it’s the American Revolution all over again, uh-huh:

Stinking up Wall Street: Protesters accused of living in filth as shocking pictures show one demonstrator defecating on a POLICE CAR

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/08/article-2046586-0E481DB700000578-865_634×366.jpg

So who’s side are you on?

Just askin…

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Someone needs to tell your new “editor” that the current lineup of writers on the opinion pages pretty much sucks. Sorry.

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The liberal left wing ruling loons of Atlanta are too good at committing suicide for anybody to assist in its death.

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Recently, Cain hosted his own radio talk show in the Atlanta area, potentially giving him a built-in base of supporters in Atlanta’s conservative suburbs.

A local black man who beat all the odds and became successful, one would think that the Atlanta newspaper, the Urinal, would be wall to wall following his rise in the polls and on the national stage, after all they do harp on themselves being “balanced,” but no, they instead ignore him like the plague.

Says a lot, in so many different ways, don’t it?

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To my fellow comrades in New York presently engaged in our struggle against the “bourgeoisie” that have created the immoral disparities of wealth equality among the working class people of our land under this current evil capitalist economic system of oppression emanating from Wall Street, for the moment our fight must continue as unions members pledge unity with us in the socialist workers cause to overthrow the evil rich “bourgeoisie” that refuse to pay their fair share to the state, we shall prevail victorious in delivering “social justice” to them comrades.

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Over the weekend, Obama comes clean and admits another 1.4 trillion dollar deficit. It seems that with Obama we only have to look forward to endless deficits as he and his democrat buddies can’t keep from wasting money.

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Why are they repeating everything that’s said?

It reminds me of an elementary school assembly.

Weird!

And the wiggly fingers thing…what’s that about?

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What the heck is “the agenda”.

They keep talking about continuing with “it” but never get around “to it”.

I don’t see how the left can’t be embarrassed by what they’re seeing. I work with kids who have more going for ‘em that those folks.

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And then you will

And then you will

chant stupid platitudes

chant stupid platitudes

like a moron at a

like a moron at a

cult gathering

cult gathering

for the common good

for the common good

we must defecate on this cop car

we must defecate on this cop car

power to the people

power to the, ooops, almost let it get me.

Uh, no I didn’t.

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Federal officials begin major crackdown on marijuana operations
“It’s coming out of left field as far as we’re concerned,” said Joe Elford, the chief counsel for Americans for Safe Access, which advocates for medical marijuana use. “I really don’t know what inspired this. It’s a complete about-face from what [Obama] said when he was campaigning.”

He’s got your vote, moron, he needs the Law and Order vote now. Like they are stupid enough not to see what’s going on.

Re elect the clown and we will all be smoking dope.

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Obama to Hispanic leaders last week: “I think there’s been a great disservice done to the cause of getting the DREAM Act passed and getting comprehensive immigration passed by perpetrating the notion that somehow, by myself, I can go and do these things. It’s just not true.” Obama on immigration at a town-hall meeting at Facebook headquarters in Palo Alto last April: “I can’t solve this problem by myself.” Obama, around the same time, speaking to a group of climate-change activists at the White House: “I can’t do this alone.” Obama, last November: “The responsibilities of this office are so enormous… sometimes we lose track of the ways that we connected with folks that got us here in the first place.” Obama, at a press conference in April 2009, “I can’t press a button and have the banks do what I want, or turn on a switch and Congress falls in line.” Obama, speaking at the United Nations in September 2009: “[The world] cannot now stand by and wait for America to solve the world’s problems alone.” Obama, two years ago, on the military overthrow of the democratically elected President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras: “[I] can’t push a button and suddenly reinstate Mr. Zelaya.”

So now it’s “Yes, he can’t?”

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Trying to get his jobs bill passed with little white lies.

Obama: I had a chance to meet a young man named Robert Baroz. He’s got two decades of teaching experience. He’s got a master’s degree. He’s got an outstanding track record of helping his students make huge gains in reading and writing. In the last few years, he’s received three pink slips because of budget cuts. Why wouldn’t we want to pass a bill that puts somebody like Robert back in the classroom teaching our kids?

He never left.

Baroz has in fact received three pink slips in four years, but in each case, his job was saved, either through stimulus funds or the 2010 Congressional Jobs Bill. He now works as a literacy and data coach at the Curley K-8 School in Jamaica Plain, analyzing MCAS data and applying it to teachers’ everyday lessons.

White House spokeswoman Joanna Rosholm said: “The President highlighted the story of a great Boston teacher who is NOT in the classroom today — because his school, like so many across the country, is facing a budget crunch. If Congress will pass the American Jobs Act, then we can put thousands of teachers like Mr. Baroz back in the classroom.”

Doesn’t sound like he’s in the classroom. He’s a data analyst.

And the teacher of whom he spoke?

Baroz, who supports Obama and his efforts to restore the public sector, told the Herald yesterday he doesn’t mind if the president — or his speechwriters — took some liberties with the facts. It was all in aid of a higher truth, he said.

says it’s okay to lie.

MCAS is tied into NCLB. Wonder if Jamaica Plain’s test scores are legit?

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Kyle, as one who has worked in urban planning across the metro area, one of the biggest deficits the “OTP” areas have in terms of traffic management is a lack of connected surface streets. In many areas, the dendritic “feeder” system is a major contributor to congestion – cul de sacs lead to feeder streets, which lead to collectors, which lead to arterials. There is a lack of cross-connections (otherwise known as a street grid).
Interconnected surface streets, which alleviate congestion far more efficiently than widening lanes on arterial roads or highways, are a LOCAL responsibility. In my experience, the OTP municipalities and county governments have not been willing to invest their own money into these types of street improvements, nor are they willing to adopt a mapped streets program to compel private developers to implement them. That is mostly a lack of political will and poor urban planning. Instead, they prefer to compel state taxpayers from other areas to widen arterials and highways (a method that most traffic planners will tell you is short sighted at best) for them.
There are exceptions, of course, but when these OTP jurisdictions start investing adequately to address the problems of their own creation perhaps they will have earned a ride in the saddle of their high horse.

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tjatl

October 9th, 2011
1:52 am

“That is mostly a lack of political will and poor urban planning.”

So, so very true as land spectulators and developers have almost literally ruled over, controlled and dominated local governments during much of the post-World War II era (see Cobb and, ESPECIALLY, Gwinnett).

“Instead, they prefer to compel state taxpayers from other areas to widen arterials and highways (a method that most traffic planners will tell you is short sighted at best) for them.”

Also very true, but widening of local suburban and exurban roads has not taken place as much in Georgia as many think as GA is 49th out of 50 states in overall transportation investment (including roads) with GA being outspent by places like Texas and Florida by almost a 2-1 margin or more in some cases.

Both Texas and Florida in particular have major cities in Dallas, Houston, Miami and Orlando that are based on grid systems on flatter terrain with major roads with alot more right-of-way that are alot easier to widen from two-lane country roads to 4-6 lane suburban collector roads and major arteries.

Metro Atlanta and North Georgia features very hilly and heavily wooded terrain in many places which makes the widening of existing roads and the building of new roads a little less popular of a concept (see the erstwhile-Northern Arc).

Of course there is a traditional aversion to mass transit in much of suburban and exurban Atlanta, but in many of those same places one will find almost just as much of an aversion to widening collector roads that are also lined with residential development, unlike in Texas and Florida where many collector roads have been widened to 4-6 lane roads.

If mass transit (commuter rail, bus, etc) is politically and socially unpopular and we can’t widen or straighten or existing surface roads and we can’t build any new toll roads (hence the overdependence on our freeway system), then we are just plain screwed,

At this point, Georgia is basically sitting around refusing to and seemingly not knowing how to make investments in its infrastructure while our neighbors and main economic competitors in North Carolina, Florida and Texas are actively and aggressively continuing to make massive maximum investments in theirs.

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Ron

October 8th, 2011
11:00 pm

I read the article link that you provided and there is not much to fear as far as a reprisal of the Northern Arc in that particular case as the extension to Sugarloaf Parkway from just below 316 to Peachtree Industrial Boulevard is a county-funded project, that while it will run in the right-of-way of the erstwhile Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc, will only be built in Gwinnett County.

The Gwinnett County government never permitted any development to be built in the right-of-way of that previously proposed road intending to build their own local controlled-access parkway in case the plans for the Outer Perimeter fell through, which they did as a way to alleviate the Highway 20 choke point above the Mall of Georgia and using the road as an exit ramp/connector between I-85 southbound and I-985 northbound.

Though I have been hearing of bone-headed proposals to resurrect that erstwhile lightning rod of a proposed highway.

The proposal drawing the most ire from locals right now is a GDOT proposal to connect I-75 with Hwy 411 in Bartow County that would cut directly through some mountain range and the very valuable property of some very politically-influential landowners along and close to the route of the erstwhile Northern Arc north of Cartersville.

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TSPLOST is nothing more than yet another program to divert money away from more affluent area to dumps like ATL, DeKalb & Clayton.

I will be voting NO!

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The 10-county metro area simply doesn’t have the population density to support transit.

Urban planning expert Alain Bertaud (over 30 years of international experience and 19 years with the World Bank) and others find that transit works in cities with a density of about 35 people per hectare (2.5 acres). In 1990, our metro area density was 6 p/ha.

Bertaud projected our earlier 3.14% growth rate forward 20 years to 2010; even then, our density only increased to 10.9 p/ha- and that assumed no additional space would be used for residential purposes. Our actual population growth was 556,000 fewer than Bertaud’s 2003 study projection, so the actual 2010 density is even less: 9.6.

Is there any reason to think the next 20 years will see more robust overall growth? Not even the wildest estimates project it to increase our density 3.5x what is now- and that which is necessary to sustain transit (if you’re keeping score, that’d be 14.4m with zero additional residential footprint). We’re simply too spread out for the transit option to make sense here, so let’s get on with the tough business of figuring out other solutions that actually give us some meaningful bang for our buckis.

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@ Build – an outer perimeter will not solve the inner suburbs’ congestion problems. Interstate truckers and through-traffic vacationers aren’t using Windy Hill Road or Johnson Ferry.

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And the fools in south Atlamta wonder why people in the northern areas want OUT of this nonsense. Atlanta would be a dead zone without the northern areas to pump money into it.

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People who think roads “cause” develoment have no been on the Camp Creek extension.

Growth has already come. We are choking on the traffic and some of us want concrete steps taken to allieviate the congestion. Others, apparently including some of the politicians, are more interested in ideology and the money honey-pot they can raid.

Tim Lee, the soon to be former politcian from Cobb, decided to put his idelolgy above the real transportation needs of his constituents with the half backed Cumberland to the Arts Center line. I don’t oppose transit per se but do demand that the transportation money be spent to actually help resolve the congestion.

TSPLOST is dead.

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Remember when the Urinal blubbered and whined about the Republicans shutting down government over the debt deal, and with it the National Museums? Looks like they’ve gotten over that faux outrage-

The Smithsonian’s National Air and Space Museum on the Mall was abruptly closed Saturday afternoon after a “large group of protesters” tried to push past security guards and enter the museum, a spokeswoman said.

evil museum!

evil museum!

space and air bad!

space and air bad!

look, a drone!

look, a drone!

evil drone!

evil drone!

attack the drone!

attack the drone!

No, the thing hanging from the ceiling not the guy with the loudspeaker, get off of him!

No, the thing hanging from the ceiling not the guy with the loudspeaker, get off of him!

mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!

mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!

allah akbar!

allah akbar!

just sayin….

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Bob Ross

October 9th, 2011
12:40 pm

“The 10-county metro area simply doesn’t have the population density to support transit.”

It’s true that Metro Atlanta when the population is averaged out over a 10-county area or the Atlanta Region when the population is averaged out over the 28-30 county area of its boundaries (an area that is larger than the state of Massachusetts other Northeastern states that are smaller in land area) has what may just be the LOWEST population density of any major metropolitan area/population center on the planet.

But that statement can be kind of misleading as the population of the metro area and region is not uniformly spread out over all 5,000-plus square miles of the 10-county metro area or 8,000-plus square miles of the region as some areas, especially along major transportation nodes like interstates, major surface roads and existing freight railroad lines close to or near historic town and neighborhood centers that originally were settled and grew up on those railroad lines.

We should also keep-in-mind that different transit solutions can be used for different types of developed areas as transportation is not and should not be approached as a “one-size-fits-all” thing.

Modes of transit like local bus routes, cable cars (streetcars), heavy rail (subways and elevated trains) and light rail (surface trams) are much better fits for densely-populated urban areas inside I-285 and densely-populated mature, established aging suburbs closer to I-285.

While modes like commuter rail on existing freight rail lines that parallel the interstate spokes and express commuter bus routes on those interstate and freeway spokes are the best option for less densely-populated outlying suburban and exurban areas farther out and on the fringes of the metro area and region.

But make no mistake that transit in differing modes absolutely must be a part of the conversation moving forward because of the sheer volume of traffic that is forced to be overdependent on our limited freeway system and surface road network.

There’s no way that a major metropolitan region of six million people can be expected to effectively function without being multimodal as, especially on the Northside of the metro area, the freeway system has seemed to be reaching or to have already reached build-out status.

There doesn’t necessarily seem to be a very big appetite to widen those freeways much more or build alot of new roads beyond just widening some of the few major arterial roads that there are in the region.

As it stands now the Atlanta Region is basically trying to function on the same amount of transportation infrastructure that it had in 1990 when it had half the population of today.

We also should keep-in-mind that the auto-focused sprawl that has dominated the Atlanta Region for the last 60-plus years in the post-World War II era will likely not continue to do so in the face of rising gas prices, worsening gridlock and increasingly lengthy commutes.

In many places in the five-county core of the region that the trend of sprawling auto-dominated development is starting to reverse as there have been alot of Northeastern-style townhome and row house type of developments popping up next to existing transit lines and major roads alike.

Transit lines like heavy local bus service, streetcars, light rail, heavy rail and especially commuter rail lines on existing freight rail lines that already run through existing historical neighborhood and town centers built to human scale (as opposed to car scale) can and will serve to guide future development to be concentrated along transit lines close to stations and stops.

The Atlanta Region has doubled in population with a virtual 100 percent population growth rate in the last 20 years growing from 2.9 million in 1990 to 5.8 million people today on what basically the same infrastructure.

When you think about it, it’s like adding the population of a Denver, a city with its own set of transportation challenges, traffic jams, etc, to Metro Atlanta in a very short period of time.

You can’t add three million more people to a metro area of three million that was already struggling with traffic congestion and expect to get by with little or no investment in your infrastructure, it’s just not happening.

Atlanta’s past was with automobiles. Atlanta’s present is a hard-luck transition in a bewildered transportation and mobility-challenged obvilion.

But make no mistake that Atlanta’s future as the mega-city that it has become is in rail transportation.

As a city blessed with an overbundance of rail infrastructure, the sooner we realize that the future will not be like our sprawling auto-dominated past, the sooner we will get ourselves moving again both transportation-wise and economically.

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Build The Outer Perimeter

October 9th, 2011
5:52 pm

With the Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter being politically radioactive, the next best thing that could be done would be to double-stack the top-half of I-285 from I-20 on the westside back around to I-20 on the eastside.

Interstates 75 and 85 on the northside could also be double-stacked outside the perimeter out to their junctions with I-575 and I-985, respectively with the top level restricted to car traffic only and the bottom level for both cars and trucks.

Though, these days, the Georgia Department of Transportation would be laughed off of the podium and out of the building or maybe chased with torches and pitchforks if they actually presented that proposal to the public and the media, especially after the growing backlash to HOT lanes.

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Build the Outer Perimeter

Actually, the last proposal I heard, was to build an outer perimeter, well north of the Northern Arc that failed. That’s a developmental highway and no, the sprawl isn’t already there. There are well connected people who own land along the route though.

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Hillbilly D

October 9th, 2011
8:10 pm

I’ve also heard about the latest proposed route for a revived Northern Arc that you are talking about as well.

I’ve also heard that the latest proposed route may be even more unpopular because the route is closer to the mountains and runs through some very pristine and somewhat unspoiled land in the foothills and southernmost reaches of the Blue Ridge Mountains.

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San Antonio had an outer perimeter way back in the early eighties. I understand the idea of public input and the value of it, but more often than not public input leads to paralysis and bickering. The transportation tax measure will fail. Georgians always vote to protest against something. Rarely do Georgians vote for something.

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Build The Outer Perimeter

October 10th, 2011
6:09 am

Building an Outer Perimeter road on its face is not a bad idea as lots of other very major cities have those types of outer suburban loop and bypass roads.

It’s just that with the public paranoia about increasing sprawl and the well-connected developers that would likely benefit from the road, the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc is about as dead as a road can be politically.

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Karl Marx

October 10th, 2011
6:52 am

Highway 20 is a surface state highway route that isn’t anywhere near the lightning rod that the proposed toll road through Bartow, Cherokee and Forsyth was back in the early 2000s.

Hwy 20 also won’t have any measurable effect in taking heavy though truck traffic off of I-285 as the Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter would have had, at least in theory as Atlanta is still one of the top trucking and logistics centers and one of the top destinations for heavy truck traffic on the entire continent.

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“Among freeways, six of the nine worst stretches are along I-75 in Cobb, I-85 in Gwinnett, Ga. 400 north of the perimeter, or the top end of I-285.”

You’re right about MARTA, but is the solution to spend millions in taxpayer money, not to relieve congestion on these arteries, but to add HOT lanes??? No. A million times NO!

I will NOT vote for the TSPLOST. I haven’t waited almost 15 years for improvements to I-575 and I-75 to see my tax dollars spent on HOT lanes which will make traffic even worse.

HOT lanes are a horrible misuse and waste of public funds. Public transportation funded by the taxpayers must provide equitable access of use. Taxpayers should be outraged and heads should roll.

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@ A Conservative Voice October 8th, 2011 8:18 am

First, my job definitely doesn’t depend on MARTA. I enjoy the fact that MARTA is available. Second, MARTA can’t be a bottomless pit because it is so underfunded. Third, most projects are not “shovel ready” so people are going to have to wait for some projects. I’d rather wait and atleast know that it will be done then wait 10 years and nothing is still not done AND not even planned.

People like Conservative Voice and Kyle are the reason transit doesn’t move forward in this area. So many excuses on why not to build transit but never have an alternative other than “build roads wider” which clearly has not worked.

Only 5% ride transit? That’s about right. Even in NYC where they have a little over 1 million rides a day they only have about 5% of the population riding. There are 20 million folks in the NYC metro area.

If you look at most new developments they are now being built as walkable, transit friendly communities to get cars off the road. Building new transit stations will increase this kind of development around stations. I agree density plays a part but it’s still more based on population. This is a car area and folks are going to drive to the stations. 5.8 million people is 5.8 million people, whether they are condensed within 2 square miles or 20.

Rail and mass transit overall brings jobs. Ask how many CEO’s decided to move to a city and said “hey… that sure is a wide highway; we need to move to that city!” Now how many have made a decision based on the proximity to a rail station or mass transit?

Unless these conservative suburbs understand that Atlanta needs to be supported and so does transit, the area is going to fail and you won’t need to worry about transit or roads. Your unemployed tail will be at home! Hope you can pay your internet bill to search for a new job and pay that car note. You’ll need to because you won’t have a bus or train to take to move you around when you can’t.

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Grownups like to build grownup trains to play with, especially when they are built with other peoples money.

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Just kill this suburban road tax.

If y’all want to sit in traffic in the burbs, fine. Just don’t expect us folks who live ITP to pay for your roads.

Question: What’s the quickest way to get to Alabama from Little 5 Points?

Answer: 20 miles in any direction. Once you cross 285 its all Alabama.

Enjoy your car!

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Bob Ross

October 12th, 2011
12:08 am

“Clearly, businesses did not put a premium on locating close to transit in our metro region.”

Can you blame them? Transit, along with transportation in general, is pretty much a joke in this town, and not a very funny one at that.

MARTA runs what has devolved from one of the top-10 transit systems in North American down to a bare-bones operation in noticeable decline with plans to cut operations even further.

Commuter rail is non-existent, even after four million newcomers to the region in 30 years.

Virtually no new capacity has been added to the freeway system in the nearly two decades since the opening of the Georgia 400 Toll Extension in 1993 despite adding the equivalent of the population of the entire Denver Region during that time.

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There is a state legislator in Cobb County who is pushing somewhat for the option of putting commuter rail on the existing CSX and Georgia Northeastern Railroad lines that parallel Interstates 75 and 575 in Cobb and Cherokee Counties as an alternative that would be much more sustainable over the long-term than the proposed light rail line running from the MARTA Arts Center Station in Midtown to the Cumberland Mall/Galleria area near the junction of Interstates 75 and 285.

Governor Deal just also created a regional transit oversight agency/transit authority about a few weeks ago which is rumored to be funded with another regional tax besides the proposed T-SPLOST to fund it, which is ironic because GRTA was created to supposedly do the same thing about a dozen years ago, but never did.

The Clayton County Commission Chairman Eldrin Bell has also been very vocal in demanding some of the T-SPLOST funds be directed towards implementing commuter rail on the Norfolk Southern rail line that parallels Hwy 19-41 between Atlanta and Macon that already has secured around $100 million in startup funding from the Feds that is just sitting there waiting to be used.

There’s also a group of advocates who continue to support implementing commuter rail on the CSX line between Atlanta and Athens (the “Brain Train” project).

The Georgia Department of Transportation even has a rudimentary rough draft kind of blueprint of what a regional commuter rail system would look like in the Railroads section of its website at http://dot.ga.gov/maps/pages/Railroad.aspx.

The only thing is that, other than the regional blueprint on the GDOT website, there does not seem to any cohesive plan for a regional commuter rail system, but rather a whole bunch of different transportation plans competing against each other, often within the same branches of local and state government agencies.

Hard to believe, especially after the Atlanta Region has added close to four million new residents in the last 30 years, but the current not-all-that-well-thought-out TSPLOST referendum is the area’s first ever real attempt at regional transportation planning….and it shows.

Up until now, the closest thing to “planning” that had ever gone on was by land spectulators and developers scouting new locations for spectulative residential and commercial developments as the Atlanta Region’s population has been so explosive over the last three decades that developers could just build it and consumers would just literally come and buy it up.

Well, our “build-it-and-they-will-come” approach to transportation “planning” has finally caught up with us and in a very big way, which isn’t too great for a region and state that don’t like to or even seem to know how to invest in infrastructure.

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