A head-scratching debate between rail options for T-SPLOST
It seems like a no-brainer. But those cases often make brains hurt the most.
Commuters along I-75 northwest of Atlanta want relief from traffic congestion. The state owns a railroad line that runs from Atlanta through the downtowns of Vinings, Smyrna, Marietta, Kennesaw and Acworth. It’s double-tracked most of the way, meaning there’s room for freight and passenger rail alike.
Make a few modifications, buy some train cars, and a commuter rail service for Cobb could be up and running within a few years — for a tiny fraction of the money that a 1 percent sales tax for transportation, or T-SPLOST, is forecast to provide if voters approve it next year.
Instead, transit planners want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars more to build a lower-capacity light rail line. Which wouldn’t be completed for more than a decade. And which, even when finished, wouldn’t go beyond Cumberland Mall. To reach Acworth would take another decade and nearly $2 billion more, from a source TBD.
What was that about a no-brainer? State Rep. Ed Setzler, R-Acworth, asks the same thing.
“Why wouldn’t we use an existing resource that millions…of dollars have been poured into the last century…before we spend $100 million a mile to try to create a whole new architecture in a way that hasn’t been proven yet, and that voters haven’t shown a commitment to?” Setzler told me Monday.
The light rail plan calls for a new line from the Arts Center MARTA station to the Cumberland Mall area, barely inside Cobb. The exact alignment would be decided later, but the draft T-SPLOST project list assigns it $856 million for 8 miles.
Based on two state estimates since 2001, Setzler said his commuter rail alternative would cover roughly 30 miles and “can be done for considerably less than $100 million.”
With the savings, he would convert parts of Cobb Parkway and Windy Hill Road into “modified super-arterials” on which motorists could drive for miles with no stoplights. They wouldn’t be full super-arterials like Peachtree Industrial Boulevard, as some critics charge in arguing his cost estimates are too low. Instead, they would use the same, scaled-down model the T-SPLOST list envisions for a stretch of Tara Boulevard in Clayton County.
These two plans, he argues, offer more relief from traffic congestion, much sooner, than a $856 million light rail line.
“Perhaps light rail in 20 years makes sense to go to Cumberland,” he says. “It can creep north more slowly over time as the population moves and the density is created to support it. But…it’s just not the solution from a cost-benefit perspective. And you’re not forced to advance it so far so fast…if you’ve got another alternative to get people out of traffic.
“If it’s truly about traffic relief, use commuter rail to solve the traffic problem. And begin to see the redevelopment benefits in our historic downtowns.”
Listening to Setzler reminded me of a June conversation with William Lind, renowned conservative transit advocate. Some of the same people who support Cobb light rail brought Lind to Atlanta to pitch the benefits of cost-conscious transit.
One of his anecdotes about maximizing resources — with commuter rail, no less — now seems particularly apt:
“I had the head of the Columbus [Ohio transit] system say to me, ‘They wanted me to build a $1 billion light rail paralleling the existing double-track railroad,’ ” Lind told me. “The answer should be, ‘Hell no!’ ”
Like I said: No-brainer.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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79 comments Add your comment
MarkV
September 30th, 2011
6:58 pm
Kyle,
Earlier somebody attacked your qualities as a journalist. I did not like the tone of that attack, but this article raises some doubts in my mind. If you write about an issue like this, would it not be appropriate to include the arguments from the other side?
Strawman
September 30th, 2011
7:06 pm
And, on a different note, this from an illustrious figure on the left, the “reverend” Al:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2011/09/30/al-sharpton-put-governor-christie-jail-90-days-lose-weight#ixzz1ZS4nH3FI
I think I now really know what someone means when they say “you just can’t make this stuff up.”
Strawman
September 30th, 2011
7:07 pm
Oh, boy…corporations undoubtedly leave much to distrust, but the blind trust in the government on the left is incomprehensible:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/30/solyndra-loan-program-on-pace-to-commit-5m-for-every-permanent-job/
Strawman
September 30th, 2011
7:08 pm
Ah…the UN – the favorite bastxxd child of FDR (whose mislaid affection for it was shrewdly exploited by Stalin at the end of WWII to the detriment of many people). The League of Nations had been a resolute failure, but FDR (in his teeming sagacity) thought to resurrect it. I now present you with yet another palpable display of the rightness of our former president’s predilection:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AF_EQUATORIAL_GUINEA_UN_PRIZE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-09-29-14-25-35
Strawman
September 30th, 2011
7:09 pm
Doh! This does not bode well for his highness:
http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/census-sheds-new-light-on-toll-of-great-recession-20110929?page=1
Strawman
September 30th, 2011
7:15 pm
“Make a few modifications, buy some train cars, and a commuter rail service for Cobb could be up and running within a few years — for a tiny fraction of the money that a 1 percent sales tax for transportation, or T-SPLOST, is forecast to provide if voters approve it next year.
Instead, transit planners want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars more to build a lower-capacity light rail line. Which wouldn’t be completed for more than a decade. And which, even when finished, wouldn’t go beyond Cumberland Mall. To reach Acworth would take another decade and nearly $2 billion more, from a source TBD.”
You know, Kyle, you see the very same folly in government-run education. Instead of investing the bulk of its monetary resources in teachers, they instead bullheadedly continue to invest it it new buildings (when alternative solutions – like refurbishing an abandoned mall) would cost but a fraction of that money. It’s like liberals think they must spend lost of money on new things or nothing can work. Perhaps we really need a depression.
Waheema
September 30th, 2011
7:37 pm
Voters are right when they realize that the TSPLOST planners did not spend nearly enough energy on actually relieving transportation problems. I am starting to believe that TSPLOST is a giant waste of an enoumous pile of our money.
Now with Ten Percent More Flavor
September 30th, 2011
7:54 pm
This is how Georgia Republicans want to spend tax dollars more wisely. How much would those shovel ready jobs cost compared to the stimulus shovel ready jobs.
Jon
September 30th, 2011
8:00 pm
We need a Marta link to Cumberland Mall period. Its a no brainer otherwise the Cumberland area will not keep up with its rivals Dunwoody and Sandy Springs.
I have no problem with the comuter train as well but we have to have the Marta link.
lil barry's mamma
September 30th, 2011
8:07 pm
Glad this idea of using existing rail resources hasn’t been thought of, or publically advocated before your article, I mean it would be a shameful waste of originality now wouldn’t it?
But then again, did you mention whether or not this nifty old idea that makes a heck of alot of dollars and sense would shun inclusion of unionized mostly liberalized socialized governed ITP MARTA group?
Using existing rail lines whether state owned or privately held rail line rights of way that can be readily expanded to accommodate a public-private commuter rail venture of the NON – UNION and without the mostly liberalized socialized governed ITP crowd in control would simply be asking too much. Not to mention it is too appealing to the conservative elements of this state OTP that hate what MARTA and all the socialist liberaltard welfare crap it represents.
Don’t make book on this TSPLOST for MARTA passing Kyle.
Steve - USA
September 30th, 2011
8:10 pm
MarkV@6:58
You could make the same accusation against Bookman every day.
Skram30082
September 30th, 2011
8:18 pm
Unless this line provides access to a MARTA station, this line is a train to nowhere. Once it crosses into Fulton County, near the intersection of Atlanta and Bolton roads, it continues down to the large switching yard near West Marietta Street.
Not saying this is a bad idea at all, but it has to at least intersect MARTA at a currently existing station to provide a seemless route of transportation.
This certainly makes more sense than a stub line from the Arts Station to the Cumberland area.
Comrade MarxistV
September 30th, 2011
8:23 pm
Best way to kill any hope of TSPLOST passing, even with good transportation ideas, will be putting support of MARTA in the deal.
Rafe Hollister
September 30th, 2011
9:20 pm
Government will always travel around their elbow to get to their wrist. These obvious solutions using existing rail have been around since I have lived in the Metro, 1973. Always shot down by the big government knows best bunch that have created the current jam packed roads and raillines that go nowhere anyone wants to go. I’m voting against this Splost as effort to save the taxpayers some money that otherwise will be wasted.
The big government solutions take so long to complete that people’s habits and lifestyles have changed by that point.
MarkV
September 30th, 2011
11:41 pm
Steve – USA @8:10 pm: “You could make the same accusation against Bookman every day.”
Thank you for the information. It does not address the point of my post, however.
a reader
September 30th, 2011
11:46 pm
i couldn’t capsulize my thought for bookman earlier so WTF. ATL is where it all happens for GA. where the liberal hits that mat. the dynamic is profound yet literal. i’m trying to find an amusing way to describe the way white folks notice how many black people live in atlanta ga. befuddlement.
i’m pretty sure that GA is locked in a dumb way for a predictable span. maybe it’s a cocoon.
a reader
September 30th, 2011
11:59 pm
but i just had another thought. what color hat do we follow when stupid incites the crowd?
a reader
October 1st, 2011
12:01 am
cain’t see it from ma house
Michael H. Smith
October 1st, 2011
6:01 am
I’ll be joining with you Rafe in voting against this SPLOST. Your comment was right on target. In fact your point about this bunch that basically wants to “reinvent the wheel” instead of using “the perfectly better wheel that already exists” said it all, leaving nothing more worth mentioning to add on this subject.
ragnar danneskjold
October 1st, 2011
6:35 am
Seemingly would be a lot cheaper to build a heavy-rail/MARTA link than it would be to extend MARTA to Cumberland Mall. “No-brainer” looks about right to me. Similarly there is a heavy rail in the Northeast slightly west of I-85, could connect Norcross, Duluth, Suwanee, Buford, and Gainesville to downtown comparatively easily.
carlosgvv
October 1st, 2011
8:32 am
Strawman – “Perhaps we really need a depression”
At the rate things are going now, we will probably be in one in a couple of years.
@@
October 1st, 2011
8:47 am
Light rail? Will the connection be underground or above?
A compromise for the “quaint”.
Delayed response to Hillbilly from downstairs (two stories).
@@, Aquagirl
If y’all had one, you’d understand.
I wear a shirt, pants, shoes, and an occasional hat. To which “one” do you allude?
(IW&SH)
@@
October 1st, 2011
9:01 am
Well, carlos…Obama thinks we’ve gotten soft, soooo
perhaps he agrees and is working hard to bring about that depression.
carlosgvv
October 1st, 2011
9:11 am
@@
Since the Tea Party Congress was ready, willing and able to let our Country go into default, looks like they agree also.
A Realist
October 1st, 2011
10:32 am
All this is very interesting – granted, if you want the best long term investment, you’d go ahead and take the existing branch of MARTA (just north of the Arts Center Station), let it break through the ground and continue on up I75 – for a long way – but that would be blasphemy. It would obviously bring crime and mayhem into the ‘burbs, that have none of that now.
That being said, we now plan to invest 7 Billion (with a ‘B’) of taxpayer subsidy into HOT lanes. (read Saturday’s AJC). 7 Billion would build quite a bit of transit – but the SRTA and friends would really like the money, so we build tollways.
Kyle’s point is interesting, but you really, really do need to connect with MARTA somehow. Commuter rail is necessary for the region, and that might really work, if you don’t dump the line into the CSX freight yards. On the other hand, commuter rail is not politically feasible, after all, it would require a taxpayer subsidy that is really not fair (see the previous paragraph.)
Wow, we sure are shooting ourselves in the foot multiple times.
@@
October 1st, 2011
10:47 am
Technical or real? Temporary or permanent? How great was the danger of missing an interest payment?
You base your opinion on what Moody’s says?
In one of the most stark condemnations of the credit rating agencies, a Senate investigations panel said the agencies (Moody’s & S&P) continued to give top ratings to mortgage-backed securities months after the housing market started to collapse.
Looks like Barney Frank and Moody’s are kissin’ cousins.
I supported Bush’s “Ownership Society” for, what I thought, were the right reasons. Turns out my faith in mankind was unjustified as it too often is.
Oh well…
@@
October 1st, 2011
10:51 am
Oops! No slanties in the last two paragraphs.
IHB
Cutty
October 1st, 2011
1:12 pm
As this is such a no-brainer (better late than never), who is at fault for leaving out such an obvious solution? Obama’s? Pelosi’s or Reid’s? Those powerful GA Democrats? Wingfield carefully poses his argument as if there were some well-coordinated effort to leave out surefire way to alleviate traffic.
Problem is, republicans in the Gold Dome are so spineless, that they couldn’t fathom having to actually raise taxes to address metro Atlanta’s traffic concerns. No, they allowed local politicians to have entirely too much influence on what should be a state-led project. That’s probably why this reasonably well-thought line won’t be built, and if it is, I bet you dollars to donuts that it will never intersect with a MARTA station. Republicans showed 0 leadership, punted on this issue, and we’re now left with a referendum that probably won’t pass and if it does it will have odd projects such as renovating McCollum Field and the BeltLine on it (I live in the City) that have nothing to do with addressing transit concerns. If you’re always gonna blame Obama for the nation’s problems, the least you could do is dish same said blame towards republicans of this state when it’s completely warranted.
ViewFromMidtown
October 1st, 2011
1:21 pm
Well, welcome to the freakin’ party Kyle. It’s so cute when you Republicans suddenly have a brainstorm that been advocated by others for a decade and almost break your arms trying to pat yourselves on the back. The sad fact is that the GOP has been blocking commuter rail for years – even the high-profile Brain Train.
As for this particular corridor (which was on GDOT’s Georgia Rail Passenger Program map), when the TPB Concept 3 was ratified after considering every study that had been conducted affecting that region, it was designated as a high capacity corridor. Commuter rail is considered medium capacity as opposed to light rail which would operate at twice the frequency commuter rail would and be far more useful in the long run particularly with the interlining options available for other potential LRT such as a northern perimeter line. Also, as other commenters noted, the end-point for commuter rail is currently missing. A funding commitment to the MMPT to facilitate easy transfers to the MARTA and other systems is key for commuter rail.
The reason the TSPLOST is going to the voters to begin with is that the GOP legislature is too cowardly to actually fund the infrastructure that is necessary to support the state’s growth. When the TSPLOST fails, they’ll either have to man up and fund transportation properly or watch the state stagnate and then decline while rational states move into the 21st century with vision.
Robert
October 1st, 2011
1:49 pm
In some way i agree coment but other ways. All the tea bagers get head out the damm ground. Understand something i schools in bad shape we have no water. We have nothing to move around any where in Atlanta. Just imange we had good rail system in place we still have thrashers, we great corprate companies come here pump money to ecomny.. I live acworth ga i wll tell if could use the public transportion to work i would but we crap of Leadership in this State for the last 18 years enough infighting lets work togerther to make happen
Bryan -- MARTA Supporter
October 1st, 2011
2:37 pm
If the dummies of Cobb county would have just supported MARTA in the first place we would be spending millions on bull crap light rail. We’d already have HEAVY rail where it needed to be and they could waste their money on building “super arteries.”
Dusty
October 1st, 2011
3:54 pm
So, downtowners here don’t understand why we (the people) don’t want to spend $100 milion on new fan-dangle light rail when there is heavy rail already in place that we could use for good transportation routes and LESS money.
Some people seem unaware that when you don’t have much money, you do NOT spend much. Thus it is with government funds. WE DON’T HAVE MUCH MONEY TO SPEND AND NONE TO WASTE! We also do not want added debt left for our children to pay.
The tea partiers know that. They also do not want any more money taken from them for wasteful projects. Do not raise taxes. That last “T” in SPLOST stands for TAX.
Please think before you add another tax to citizens already short of money and jobs.
Dumb and Dumber
October 1st, 2011
5:44 pm
ViewFromMidtown said it well.
There are a couple of major problems with the TSPLOST — the biggest one being that it leaves the question of who’s in charge left hanging. I know, Deal wants the legislature to fix that by creating yet another transit agency next year. As we like to say, WTF? GRTA, GDOT and ARC all have the authority to run transit lines in the suburbs, we don’t need more alphabet soup nonsense. That GRTA chose to run bus lines that compete with Cobb, Gwinnett and MARTA routes is so dim-witted that it defies explanation. I’d like to hear one “conservative” on this board explain why a state transit agency is competing with local and regional transit agency routes — all with taxpayer funding. And before you blame Obama or Barnes, GRTA has been under GOP control for nine years now.
But what Kyle nor Dusty can figure out is that their proposed commuter rail line which they “discovered” has been talked about for years, but unless we build a train station in the railroad gulch between CNN/Phillips and the 5 Points MARTA station, the Cobb line’s got nowhere to go. There is even $80 million in federal funds waiting to help build the multi-modal commuter rail station there — but its not in GOP TSPLOST list of projects. Why not? Because it also must be part of an extension of commuter rail to Lovejoy (and then Macon). Which the northsiders in the GOP loathe.
Jim Wooten, bless his senile heart, could never figure out why transportation planners all said a central commuter rail station for metro Atlanta has to be located in the railroad gulch — its simply really once you look at a map — its where the east/west and north/south rail lines cross. But since its in downtown Atlanta which is full of “those people” its a non-starter for the GOP.
Before you build commuter rail lines you have to figure out where they can tie into existing transportation networks or job centers — you would think this would be obvious, but then you’d have to consider the historic opposition to transit in the GOP and the suburbs — which means that the TSPLOST will fail (because its poorly conceived and should fail) and then the GOP can say “see? we tried but the voters said no, it’s their fault.”
I say give Deal and the GOP a mulligan, have them revoke the whole TSPLOST nonsense and try again. This time, start with deciding who is in charge and stop the Balkanization of transit and transportation planning in Georgia. We’ve still got plenty of other issues to fight over where everyone who lives OTP can blame on those that live ITP and vice versa.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward)
October 1st, 2011
8:26 pm
MarkV: would it not be appropriate to include the arguments from the other side?
———————–
Kyle IS the other side.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward)
October 1st, 2011
8:30 pm
How’s MARTA doing, and why should we want more of that?
Comrade MarxistV
October 1st, 2011
10:08 pm
MARTA REEKS ON ALL SIDES
Kyle Rules!
Dusty
October 1st, 2011
10:38 pm
Dumb & Dumber,
Don’t worry your little ol’ head about the plans for these rail lines or who is running them. We wouldn’t be voting on TSPLOST if nobody was in charge.
What you need to worry about is MONEY. Taxpayer money. If we are going to increase ways to improve transportation around Atlanta, it better be sensible and economical. The Feds owe how many trillions? The states and counties can’t meet their budgets. Unemployment is out of sight! Let’s get the economy and the finances straight before we start huge projects to be “paid off in ten years”!! Yeah! What a joke! We can’t even pay what we owe NOW!!
Forget TSPLOST and forget the Feds. Nobody with good sense wants to raise taxes in these hard times and nobody with good sense wants to increase the debt of the USA.
There are some things even worse than being stuck in slow traffic. Think about it. You might be able to figure it out.
Lee
October 1st, 2011
10:41 pm
MARTA is starving because their funding is limited (i.e. we subsidize roads and not trains). Also, they can’t really grow ridership because there aren’t enough stations where the people are or want to go. So actually, more of MARTA would be an improvement despite MARTA’s current problems.
And I like the idea of using existing tracks for cheaper transportation options. It makes a lot of sense!
Mike
October 1st, 2011
11:56 pm
Kyle, I usually never agree with you, but I do agree with you on this. I’m not sure why commuter rail lines and the multi-modal station in the gulch are not being considered for the TPLOST. Commuter rail is a much better fit for our region. I’d also like to see more MARTA rail extensions.
Unfortunately the Republicans in this state and most people in the suburbs have this strange hatred towards the city, which I’m sure is one reason why we can’t get anything done with transit. It’s really pathetic.
A Conservative Voice
October 2nd, 2011
8:23 am
You know folks, I see it everyday, from the WH on down to the lowest local level. There are absolutely millions of extremely smart Americans from all walks of life……from the very rich to the person begging on the streets. Why in the %^&*(*%$# aren’t we asking these people for their input and taking advantage of their vast storehouse of knowledge that we so desperately need in this country. Our elected officials seem to think that they are the only ones with the know how to make these decisions that affect all of us. As evidenced in this article, we have assets that aren’t being utilized that could help solve our transportation problems. In 1983 the great leaders in our state gave the railroads the permission to stop providing passenger rail service. With a little foresight, that infrastructure could now be providing an alternative to building expensive lines and more roads. Lets identify all of those assets now and begin to utilize them again to stop spending all of this money that we don’t have. Folks, we are in a recession (I think it is a depression) and we’re heading, so the experts say, for another one. We have millions of people out of work, our economy is worse than it has been in my lifetime and I’m old…….no more added taxes until we get this thing straightened out…..vote NO to TSPLOST and let’s get some input from us ordinary people. I know that gonna be hard for you politicians to accept, but GET OVER IT.
Ian Ausfarht
October 2nd, 2011
8:59 am
kyle sux donkey dix sideways……..
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
9:22 am
For what it is worth A Conservative Voice as it has been mention many times already on this blog article commuter rail service using existing rail and or rail rights of way infrastructure is NOT a new idea by any stretch of the imagination.
The politicians Republican and Democrat alike already know what needs to be done. As usual this is about power and money, who gets to hold & keep it and who doesn’t. To any that think differently
stop and ask yourself, why Cobb and Gwinnett have their own separate bus systems? Ain’t nothing strange about the dislike that exists between these two sharply opposite governing philosophies. One more time for the slow learners: This is about power and money, who gets to hold & keep it and who doesn’t.
A reference link to the cited dollars & sensible past: The Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers
http://www.garprail.org/documents/grpp2006factsheet.pdf
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
9:36 am
One more link for the truly statewide passenger rail interested:
http://www.georgiarail.org
another voice
October 2nd, 2011
9:51 am
As a regular I-75 commuter and a generally frugal person, I really like these ideas. I like a cheaper way to bring rail and a way for buses to move more quickly between cobb and downtown. This isn’t a partisan solution, it is well thought out, saves taxpayer money, and will speed up the entire process. I would like to know how I can make my support for this plan heard.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
10:08 am
You know folks, I see it everyday, from the WH on down to the lowest local level. There are absolutely millions of extremely smart Americans from all walks of life……from the very rich to the person begging on the streets. Why in the %^&*(*%$# aren’t we asking these people for their input and taking advantage of their vast storehouse of knowledge that we so desperately need in this country.
So true BUT…
the government sees us as lowly financiers. We don’t rank among the “experts”, of whom they are so fond.
As the story goes, Clayton County’s “experts”…when laying out their road system, threw down a handful of match sticks to map out how our roads were to run.
I can’t really get into this transportation thingy seein’s how we, as a nation, aren’t goin; anywhere for the next 5 to 8 years.
It’s the economy, stoopid.
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
10:09 am
This isn’t a partisan solution?
Want to bet? I’ll be glad to make some easy money very quickly this morning.
One partisan side Democrat socialists and liberals will put government and unions in control at totally taxpayer expense and on the other partisan side Republican Libertarian capitalists and conservatives will have very little government involvement with a non-union private sector heavily invested and in control of operations for as much profit as possible with least amount of taxpayer dependence.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
10:11 am
aren’t goin;
Take ^^^ that semi out.
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
10:17 am
Well, @@, I’m hopin’ and changin’ that what one of those Republican candidates for Prez said… believe it was Newt…
When your neighbor loses his job it’s a recession
When you lose your job it’s a depression
WHEN OBAMA LOSES HIS JOB IT’S A RECOVERY!
I’m very much in the trans thingy if it is done correctly and that seems a very long reach at the moment.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
10:21 am
Michael:
Originally?
When your neighbor loses his job it’s a recession
When you lose your job it’s a depression
WHEN OBAMA (JMMY CARTER) LOSES HIS JOB IT’S A RECOVERY!
Ronald Reagan’s.
With or without baggage, Newt’s got it goin’ on in the ideas department. Intelligent and beyond. He would eat Obama’s lunch in a debate.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
10:22 am
DANGIT! CLOSE THOSE SLANTIES!!!!
IHB
Road Scholar
October 2nd, 2011
10:25 am
A couple thoughts on this:
When the 17th Street bridge was built, the north side was reserved for a light rail crossing from the Midtown Station to the NW. The need to go downtown to the MMPT is not a must. From the Marietta rail yard to Midtown is just a turn away! When, pray tell, will this MMPT be built, esp under our economic times? For those who may not know the Terminal is suppose to be the “basement” of a high rise development; this is a Private/Public/ Partnership project along with the “Gulch” cover east of Philps Arena. Allegedly light rail is cheaper/per mile,than heavy rail.
Yes there is an existing freight line out to Vinnings. During public meetings on the rail system (they were held in the 1990’s), the Yups in Vinnings wanted no part of the noise a heavy rail system is known for on the existing tracks. The same result was experienced on the rail line thru Piedmont Park even though BOTH communities built next to them!!!!
For those who are stuck on the “shovel ready” issue (get over it), all projects on the TIA list are not “shovel ready”. That is why the length of the tax and project delivery is 10 years! Not only does it provide time to select details about these projects, but also construct them!
Saying that, either light or heavy rail to Cobb and points beyond is needed. How many lanes on I 75 will be enough? How about another Limited Access highway out to this area? Ain’t going to happen!!!!
I’m looking for a volunteer to conduct the public involvement! Must know transportation, have a thick skin, and health insurance to handle the stress and threats! Kyle, are you interestd to get down in the trenches?
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
10:34 am
No doubt Newt is probably the smartest kid on the block even with baggage he would still beat obumer hands down walking away in a debate. But as it has been said Newt is half pass too smart, @@.
Road Scholar
October 2nd, 2011
10:37 am
@@: Are you aware that most “older” roads in the Atlanta area and in Georgia as a whole where built on “ridge” lines? The top of the hills dried out faster than the valleys (duh!).That is why our road and train systems are not “block” oriented. The newer or secondary roads are based on more of a “regular” network to augment the older ones. Hills are pretty, but a bitch when you want to create a grid system. Ever been to Asheville?
Road Scholar
October 2nd, 2011
10:40 am
MHS: If he is so smart why did he have an affair on both his ex wives? Wouldn’t it have been better if he had divorced them prior?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Thee Magnificent!!! mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 2nd, 2011
10:41 am
I was kinda wondering where all the marxists, anarchists, psychotics, fascists, environmental terrorists, global warmers, whackjobs, mealy mouths, cult members, socialists, communists, the lazy, the stupid, the ate up and al-Gore were this weekend-
Police reopened the Brooklyn Bridge Saturday evening after more than 700 anti-Wall Street protesters were arrested for blocking traffic lanes and attempting an unauthorized march across the span.
And how’s this for mental midget liberal blind duplicity?-
The “Restoring American Financial Stability Act of 2010″, authored by Senator Chris Dodd (D-CT), will be considered by the Senate in the very near future and it will make federal bailouts of private enterprise permanent. The House has already passed Congressman Barney Frank’s (D-MA) bailout bill by a 223-202 vote in December. Both bills, supported by President Barack Obama, expand bailout authority for the federal government. These bills provide a back door bailout of Wall Street.
And, since dummycrat target voters are mouth breathing simpletons with no possible means of comprehension-
Will Obama Return $994,795 In Goldman Sachs Campaign Contributions?
Should we report this to AttackWatch?
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
10:51 am
There is an existing freight line running through nearly every city and town in this state. That is why using existing rail and/or existing rail rights of way are the only practical way to go. Even with noise!
The alternative of rebuilding another rail infrastructure is so impracticable only the BIG GUB’MENT MARTA mentality people would ever suggest attempting it and it would take a great deal longer than ten years, cost a great deal more with the noise mess and disruption due to reconstructing – unbelievable, law suits over eminent domain needed to condemn property – unending.
No way I’ll vote for this SPLOST knowing that the right decisions will never be made on the use of rail.
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
11:01 am
Road Scholar: Obviously you don’t understand the meaning of the phrase of being… “half pass too smart” or correctly said “Too Smart By Half”
as to be too smart for one’s own good.
It answered your question in advance before you asked.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
12:36 pm
Scholar:
No, I did not know.
Yes, I’ve been to Asheville, and…
intended for Michael, but taking it away.
Newt is a male. Oftentimes, “the urge” precedes the divorce. His big brain vs his little brain.
I’m out to transplant some shrubs. ’tis the perfect time of year. Prepping the vegetable garden (soil) for next year too. A woman’s work is never done.
And just so you know…I don’t care whether you’re nice to one another or not. Bookman’s bloggers place a high value on that target. Me? Not so much.
Words, just words.
Hillbilly D
October 2nd, 2011
1:02 pm
@@
From yesterday (or the day before) the answer is E: None of the above. (IW&SH)
Road Scholar
You’re right, terrain dictates where roads go. It was even more true back in the days before earth movers. Many of the roads all over North GA, follow old Indian trails which always followed ridge lines because it’s a much easier means of travel, as well as the reasons you stated. It’s like if you are out for a walk in the woods and you find a cow or deer trail, follow it, because they always take the path with the easiest walk. Sometimes a much longer path but walking up and down hills, will tire one out quickly.
Speaking of transportation…….
Going down I-85, late Saturday afternoon, I saw flashing blue lights in the new toll lane. Turns out it was a GSP car, followed by a bus marked, “Mississippi State Football” and 3 other buses from Mississippi. Bringing up the rear was another GSP car with the flashing blue lights. Reckon they have a Peach Pass? They were also exceeding the speed limit but I guess that’s to be expected.
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
3:47 pm
Developed land now dictates for the most part where roads can go more so than terrain when speaking of the Metro area. Not many Metro woods out there anymore HD.
But you can take this for what it is worth: We have a road deficit that will never be negated build as we may there will never be enough roads to say we have enough. For those who understand the meaning of vision and planning for the future: Statewide passenger rail service using existing rail infrastructure where it exists and add as needed is the best choice for the state and its’ citizens to make.
In fact the citizens Georgia should own it as sole stockholders in a private public venture, say much like the people of Wisconsin own the Green Bay Packers. Better us than government and unions.
Hillbilly D
October 2nd, 2011
4:04 pm
Michael H Smith
Yes, I think history pretty well proves that the more roads you build, the more cars will come and fill them up. I can remember when the Downtown Connector was going to be the be all, end all of Atlanta’s traffic problems. After that it was I-285 and then Spaghetti Junction and I forget what came after that. All those just brought more sprawl.
I don’t live in Atlanta, so it’s really not for me to say but if they build rail, they need to be sure they put it where people want to go. Build it and they will come, is not a real good strategy, in my opinion.
As far as a state wide rail service, I wonder how many people would use it. The drawback is that once you get to where you are going, you’re still going to need a way to get around.
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
6:17 pm
Build it and they will come, is not a real good strategy, in my opinion.
As far as a state wide rail service, I wonder how many people would use it.
If your analogy on sprawl is correct, HD, then I’d have to say the build it and they will come strategy may be a bit too real good or again “too good by half”. In other words and this is the reason nobody honestly wanted to stop sprawl years ago even among those that said they would if if they could, which goes directly to the scenario of killing the goose that laid those golden eggs of economic prosperity that is a by-product of sprawl.
So in turn you probably will have little to wonder over about usage from say remote south Georgia residents; though, the same people in these remote areas may be against it or at least the sprawl parts of it and the unsavory elements that always follows money and wealth. Essentially prosperity is a double edged sword but once prosperity starts and grows nobody but nobody is truthfully going to want to end it. Usually not even the ones that claimed to be so strongly against it or what caused it.
Again some ask why not? While others asked not why, but how to do you do it, without giving up the desired wealth: As Roy Barnes once said, how do you stop it (sprawl coupled prosperity) without choking to death the goose (market prosperity) that lays the gold eggs (economic wealth).
PS. BTW, I’m not what you would call a proponent of mass trans or mass trans rail. It’s just that I see the inevitable – so best do it sooner right, than later wrong.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
6:24 pm
Gloves, Hillbilly? I wear gloves when the temp drops below freezing.
Perhaps if we changed the names of our states to things like Gorgacio, Teneseah, Uphercarolin and Undahcarolin, people would ride the train. We could change the names of our cities too. Things like Avezzano, Orte, Maastricht, Gladbach, Amersfoort, Bischofshofen.
I live in the Hamptons, don’tcha know.
schnirt
Michael H.Smith
October 2nd, 2011
6:44 pm
you’re still going to need a way to get around.
Oops… forgot to add that the Flex Car concept is one answer to this problem.
They were present in Atlanta at one time, though, I can’t speak to their success but they do fit in the overall market picture of a completely viable statewide passenger rail service.
Resource background to reference:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/30/AR2007103002221.html
As you might see, this idea in the hands of private enterprise with government setting the ideal economic climate means long term job creation is probably a given.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
6:49 pm
That Zipcar looks like a shoebox on wheels.
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
6:58 pm
I think that is diplomatically called function over form, @@
But I’m sure someone would offer both style and size for the right price.
Steve - USA
October 2nd, 2011
7:27 pm
MarkV@11:41
These are opinion pieces not news articles. That is why they are in the “Opinion” section.
Hillbilly D
October 2nd, 2011
7:50 pm
If I had my way, I’d wring that goose’s neck and have it for supper.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
8:07 pm
Michael:
I’m more pragmatic than pretentious. A shoebox on wheels works for me. Looks like it has lots of head room.
Only thing I won’t tolerate on a car is a missing hubcap. If I lose a hubcap, I won’t drive the car until it’s replaced.
Odd, I know.
Mike
October 2nd, 2011
8:13 pm
“The drawback is that once you get to where you are going, you’re still going to need a way to get around.”
For the city, that is the point of the Beltline/streetcars! And I’m sure they would connect commuter rail with MARTA so you can transfer. I know in Buckhead they have the free “Buc” shuttle with several routes that take you around Buckhead from the MARTA station. It works pretty well… I take it when I use the train for work as my office is a pretty long walk from the Buckhead station.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward)
October 2nd, 2011
8:44 pm
If folks wanted mass transit, we’d already have it. Politicians who support it would be running on that issue and getting elected. Looks like a minority of folks is trying their best to get us to waste billions on something that won’t be financially viable, like MARTA, and will require wasteful never-ending subsidies to continue operating, like MARTA.
MarkV
October 2nd, 2011
10:32 pm
Steve – USA @7:27 pm: “MarkV@11:41 These are opinion pieces not news articles. That is why they are in the “Opinion” section.”
When an opinion piece quotes another source and related arguments, it is appropriate to quote some contra-arguments.
Dumb and Dumber
October 3rd, 2011
9:06 am
Ah Dusty, cannot even comprehend the basics of rail travel. Its got to start somewhere and end somewhere. Those two “somewheres” have to be either where people live or where they want to go. The problem with the “use the existing rail line” approach is that the line will end in a switching yard. If the TSPLOST including a station to get off the line that was located where people could make connections or near their destination, that would make sense.
Sorry if I went over your head there.
A Conservative Voice
October 3rd, 2011
10:33 am
Not trying to change the subject, but…..well, I guess I am. My “opinion” is, “those I-85 Hot Lanes ain’t gonna be so hot”. Why would anyone pay to use a road that they have already helped pay for one time? How much did all this infrastructure cost to bilk us out of more wasted money? I trust the state DOT ’bout as far as I can throw ‘em to make good decisions. TSPLOST will be just another folly……it’ll never pass……..more money down the drain. The “people” will speak to this issue!!!!!
Charles Martel
October 3rd, 2011
11:28 am
The most efficient form of suburban transportation is the bus.
Heavy rail/subways are great for large, high density cities, which Atlanta is not.
Street cars are great for short, street-level trips within those cities, but not the long haul trips (i.e., too far to walk, but not far enough to ride the heavy rail/subway).
Commuter rail requires a *HUGE* downtown, much, *MUCH* larger than all of Downtown, Peachtree Center, North Avenue, and Midtown *combined*.
The automobile is great for rural and suburban day trips, i.e., the wife going to the grocery store, picking you up at the bus stop, etc.
If Atlanta, which is almost 100% suburban, wants to solve their transportation problem, they should be focused on purchasing buses and running them *EVERYWHERE*.
A Conservative Voice
October 3rd, 2011
11:36 am
I hate buses, the drivers are rude, inconsiderate and just plain arrogant, and that’s just the school buses……don’t get me started on MARTA
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
October 3rd, 2011
6:07 pm
@Charles Martel October 3rd, 2011
11:28 am
Buses are far too slow and will be stuck in the same traffic that we are trying to improve. I’m all for more bus routes but just adding more buses to the already jam packed highways is not the answer.
MARTA rail works just fine here and has been for many years. The problem is that there aren’t enough stations around the area. That’s why Atlanta still has long drawn out bus routes. If there were more stations MARTA could run shorter more direct routes and have buses coming every 10 or 12 minutes versus these long routes that come every 20 and 30 minutes.
What we need is more HEAVY rail and get rid of the idea of light rail. Heavy rail moves more people and is much faster than light rail and doesn’t run on the streets, which is just more vehicle traffic.
Atlanta can also definite handle commuter rail but it should be for places that are further than 15 or 20 miles. That is what the heavy rail is for. Cobb and Gwinnett and even Clayton would do fine with heavy rail. Save the commuter rail for places like Athens and Macon that are more than 50 miles away.
Heavy rail is going to spur dense development around the station and create jobs. We need to stop wasting time and possible money on ideas that aren’t going to help like light rail. You get what you pay for! Stop being cheap.
A Conservative Voice
October 4th, 2011
10:08 am
@Bryan — MARTA supporter
October 3rd, 2011
6:07 pm
You get what you pay for! Stop being cheap.
Bryan – STOP BEING A PUPPET
T-SPLOST list doesn’t spend the money where the traffic is | Kyle Wingfield
October 7th, 2011
5:30 pm
[...] about one in four dollars devoted to the area would go to a single rail project that would barely cross into [...]