A head-scratching debate between rail options for T-SPLOST
It seems like a no-brainer. But those cases often make brains hurt the most.
Commuters along I-75 northwest of Atlanta want relief from traffic congestion. The state owns a railroad line that runs from Atlanta through the downtowns of Vinings, Smyrna, Marietta, Kennesaw and Acworth. It’s double-tracked most of the way, meaning there’s room for freight and passenger rail alike.
Make a few modifications, buy some train cars, and a commuter rail service for Cobb could be up and running within a few years — for a tiny fraction of the money that a 1 percent sales tax for transportation, or T-SPLOST, is forecast to provide if voters approve it next year.
Instead, transit planners want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars more to build a lower-capacity light rail line. Which wouldn’t be completed for more than a decade. And which, even when finished, wouldn’t go beyond Cumberland Mall. To reach Acworth would take another decade and nearly $2 billion more, from a source TBD.
What was that about a no-brainer? State Rep. Ed Setzler, R-Acworth, asks the same thing.
“Why wouldn’t we use an existing resource that millions…of dollars have been poured into the last century…before we spend $100 million a mile to try to create a whole new architecture in a way that hasn’t been proven yet, and that voters haven’t shown a commitment to?” Setzler told me Monday.
The light rail plan calls for a new line from the Arts Center MARTA station to the Cumberland Mall area, barely inside Cobb. The exact alignment would be decided later, but the draft T-SPLOST project list assigns it $856 million for 8 miles.
Based on two state estimates since 2001, Setzler said his commuter rail alternative would cover roughly 30 miles and “can be done for considerably less than $100 million.”
With the savings, he would convert parts of Cobb Parkway and Windy Hill Road into “modified super-arterials” on which motorists could drive for miles with no stoplights. They wouldn’t be full super-arterials like Peachtree Industrial Boulevard, as some critics charge in arguing his cost estimates are too low. Instead, they would use the same, scaled-down model the T-SPLOST list envisions for a stretch of Tara Boulevard in Clayton County.
These two plans, he argues, offer more relief from traffic congestion, much sooner, than a $856 million light rail line.
“Perhaps light rail in 20 years makes sense to go to Cumberland,” he says. “It can creep north more slowly over time as the population moves and the density is created to support it. But…it’s just not the solution from a cost-benefit perspective. And you’re not forced to advance it so far so fast…if you’ve got another alternative to get people out of traffic.
“If it’s truly about traffic relief, use commuter rail to solve the traffic problem. And begin to see the redevelopment benefits in our historic downtowns.”
Listening to Setzler reminded me of a June conversation with William Lind, renowned conservative transit advocate. Some of the same people who support Cobb light rail brought Lind to Atlanta to pitch the benefits of cost-conscious transit.
One of his anecdotes about maximizing resources — with commuter rail, no less — now seems particularly apt:
“I had the head of the Columbus [Ohio transit] system say to me, ‘They wanted me to build a $1 billion light rail paralleling the existing double-track railroad,’ ” Lind told me. “The answer should be, ‘Hell no!’ ”
Like I said: No-brainer.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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79 comments Add your comment
Road Scholar
October 2nd, 2011
10:25 am
A couple thoughts on this:
When the 17th Street bridge was built, the north side was reserved for a light rail crossing from the Midtown Station to the NW. The need to go downtown to the MMPT is not a must. From the Marietta rail yard to Midtown is just a turn away! When, pray tell, will this MMPT be built, esp under our economic times? For those who may not know the Terminal is suppose to be the “basement” of a high rise development; this is a Private/Public/ Partnership project along with the “Gulch” cover east of Philps Arena. Allegedly light rail is cheaper/per mile,than heavy rail.
Yes there is an existing freight line out to Vinnings. During public meetings on the rail system (they were held in the 1990’s), the Yups in Vinnings wanted no part of the noise a heavy rail system is known for on the existing tracks. The same result was experienced on the rail line thru Piedmont Park even though BOTH communities built next to them!!!!
For those who are stuck on the “shovel ready” issue (get over it), all projects on the TIA list are not “shovel ready”. That is why the length of the tax and project delivery is 10 years! Not only does it provide time to select details about these projects, but also construct them!
Saying that, either light or heavy rail to Cobb and points beyond is needed. How many lanes on I 75 will be enough? How about another Limited Access highway out to this area? Ain’t going to happen!!!!
I’m looking for a volunteer to conduct the public involvement! Must know transportation, have a thick skin, and health insurance to handle the stress and threats! Kyle, are you interestd to get down in the trenches?
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
10:34 am
No doubt Newt is probably the smartest kid on the block even with baggage he would still beat obumer hands down walking away in a debate. But as it has been said Newt is half pass too smart, @@.
Road Scholar
October 2nd, 2011
10:37 am
@@: Are you aware that most “older” roads in the Atlanta area and in Georgia as a whole where built on “ridge” lines? The top of the hills dried out faster than the valleys (duh!).That is why our road and train systems are not “block” oriented. The newer or secondary roads are based on more of a “regular” network to augment the older ones. Hills are pretty, but a bitch when you want to create a grid system. Ever been to Asheville?
Road Scholar
October 2nd, 2011
10:40 am
MHS: If he is so smart why did he have an affair on both his ex wives? Wouldn’t it have been better if he had divorced them prior?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Thee Magnificent!!! mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
October 2nd, 2011
10:41 am
I was kinda wondering where all the marxists, anarchists, psychotics, fascists, environmental terrorists, global warmers, whackjobs, mealy mouths, cult members, socialists, communists, the lazy, the stupid, the ate up and al-Gore were this weekend-
Police reopened the Brooklyn Bridge Saturday evening after more than 700 anti-Wall Street protesters were arrested for blocking traffic lanes and attempting an unauthorized march across the span.
And how’s this for mental midget liberal blind duplicity?-
The “Restoring American Financial Stability Act of 2010″, authored by Senator Chris Dodd (D-CT), will be considered by the Senate in the very near future and it will make federal bailouts of private enterprise permanent. The House has already passed Congressman Barney Frank’s (D-MA) bailout bill by a 223-202 vote in December. Both bills, supported by President Barack Obama, expand bailout authority for the federal government. These bills provide a back door bailout of Wall Street.
And, since dummycrat target voters are mouth breathing simpletons with no possible means of comprehension-
Will Obama Return $994,795 In Goldman Sachs Campaign Contributions?
Should we report this to AttackWatch?
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
10:51 am
There is an existing freight line running through nearly every city and town in this state. That is why using existing rail and/or existing rail rights of way are the only practical way to go. Even with noise!
The alternative of rebuilding another rail infrastructure is so impracticable only the BIG GUB’MENT MARTA mentality people would ever suggest attempting it and it would take a great deal longer than ten years, cost a great deal more with the noise mess and disruption due to reconstructing – unbelievable, law suits over eminent domain needed to condemn property – unending.
No way I’ll vote for this SPLOST knowing that the right decisions will never be made on the use of rail.
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
11:01 am
Road Scholar: Obviously you don’t understand the meaning of the phrase of being… “half pass too smart” or correctly said “Too Smart By Half”
as to be too smart for one’s own good.
It answered your question in advance before you asked.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
12:36 pm
Scholar:
No, I did not know.
Yes, I’ve been to Asheville, and…
intended for Michael, but taking it away.
Newt is a male. Oftentimes, “the urge” precedes the divorce. His big brain vs his little brain.
I’m out to transplant some shrubs. ’tis the perfect time of year. Prepping the vegetable garden (soil) for next year too. A woman’s work is never done.
And just so you know…I don’t care whether you’re nice to one another or not. Bookman’s bloggers place a high value on that target. Me? Not so much.
Words, just words.
Hillbilly D
October 2nd, 2011
1:02 pm
@@
From yesterday (or the day before) the answer is E: None of the above. (IW&SH)
Road Scholar
You’re right, terrain dictates where roads go. It was even more true back in the days before earth movers. Many of the roads all over North GA, follow old Indian trails which always followed ridge lines because it’s a much easier means of travel, as well as the reasons you stated. It’s like if you are out for a walk in the woods and you find a cow or deer trail, follow it, because they always take the path with the easiest walk. Sometimes a much longer path but walking up and down hills, will tire one out quickly.
Speaking of transportation…….
Going down I-85, late Saturday afternoon, I saw flashing blue lights in the new toll lane. Turns out it was a GSP car, followed by a bus marked, “Mississippi State Football” and 3 other buses from Mississippi. Bringing up the rear was another GSP car with the flashing blue lights. Reckon they have a Peach Pass? They were also exceeding the speed limit but I guess that’s to be expected.
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
3:47 pm
Developed land now dictates for the most part where roads can go more so than terrain when speaking of the Metro area. Not many Metro woods out there anymore HD.
But you can take this for what it is worth: We have a road deficit that will never be negated build as we may there will never be enough roads to say we have enough. For those who understand the meaning of vision and planning for the future: Statewide passenger rail service using existing rail infrastructure where it exists and add as needed is the best choice for the state and its’ citizens to make.
In fact the citizens Georgia should own it as sole stockholders in a private public venture, say much like the people of Wisconsin own the Green Bay Packers. Better us than government and unions.
Hillbilly D
October 2nd, 2011
4:04 pm
Michael H Smith
Yes, I think history pretty well proves that the more roads you build, the more cars will come and fill them up. I can remember when the Downtown Connector was going to be the be all, end all of Atlanta’s traffic problems. After that it was I-285 and then Spaghetti Junction and I forget what came after that. All those just brought more sprawl.
I don’t live in Atlanta, so it’s really not for me to say but if they build rail, they need to be sure they put it where people want to go. Build it and they will come, is not a real good strategy, in my opinion.
As far as a state wide rail service, I wonder how many people would use it. The drawback is that once you get to where you are going, you’re still going to need a way to get around.
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
6:17 pm
Build it and they will come, is not a real good strategy, in my opinion.
As far as a state wide rail service, I wonder how many people would use it.
If your analogy on sprawl is correct, HD, then I’d have to say the build it and they will come strategy may be a bit too real good or again “too good by half”. In other words and this is the reason nobody honestly wanted to stop sprawl years ago even among those that said they would if if they could, which goes directly to the scenario of killing the goose that laid those golden eggs of economic prosperity that is a by-product of sprawl.
So in turn you probably will have little to wonder over about usage from say remote south Georgia residents; though, the same people in these remote areas may be against it or at least the sprawl parts of it and the unsavory elements that always follows money and wealth. Essentially prosperity is a double edged sword but once prosperity starts and grows nobody but nobody is truthfully going to want to end it. Usually not even the ones that claimed to be so strongly against it or what caused it.
Again some ask why not? While others asked not why, but how to do you do it, without giving up the desired wealth: As Roy Barnes once said, how do you stop it (sprawl coupled prosperity) without choking to death the goose (market prosperity) that lays the gold eggs (economic wealth).
PS. BTW, I’m not what you would call a proponent of mass trans or mass trans rail. It’s just that I see the inevitable – so best do it sooner right, than later wrong.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
6:24 pm
Gloves, Hillbilly? I wear gloves when the temp drops below freezing.
Perhaps if we changed the names of our states to things like Gorgacio, Teneseah, Uphercarolin and Undahcarolin, people would ride the train. We could change the names of our cities too. Things like Avezzano, Orte, Maastricht, Gladbach, Amersfoort, Bischofshofen.
I live in the Hamptons, don’tcha know.
schnirt
Michael H.Smith
October 2nd, 2011
6:44 pm
you’re still going to need a way to get around.
Oops… forgot to add that the Flex Car concept is one answer to this problem.
They were present in Atlanta at one time, though, I can’t speak to their success but they do fit in the overall market picture of a completely viable statewide passenger rail service.
Resource background to reference:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/30/AR2007103002221.html
As you might see, this idea in the hands of private enterprise with government setting the ideal economic climate means long term job creation is probably a given.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
6:49 pm
That Zipcar looks like a shoebox on wheels.
Michael H. Smith
October 2nd, 2011
6:58 pm
I think that is diplomatically called function over form, @@
But I’m sure someone would offer both style and size for the right price.
Steve - USA
October 2nd, 2011
7:27 pm
MarkV@11:41
These are opinion pieces not news articles. That is why they are in the “Opinion” section.
Hillbilly D
October 2nd, 2011
7:50 pm
If I had my way, I’d wring that goose’s neck and have it for supper.
@@
October 2nd, 2011
8:07 pm
Michael:
I’m more pragmatic than pretentious. A shoebox on wheels works for me. Looks like it has lots of head room.
Only thing I won’t tolerate on a car is a missing hubcap. If I lose a hubcap, I won’t drive the car until it’s replaced.
Odd, I know.
Mike
October 2nd, 2011
8:13 pm
“The drawback is that once you get to where you are going, you’re still going to need a way to get around.”
For the city, that is the point of the Beltline/streetcars! And I’m sure they would connect commuter rail with MARTA so you can transfer. I know in Buckhead they have the free “Buc” shuttle with several routes that take you around Buckhead from the MARTA station. It works pretty well… I take it when I use the train for work as my office is a pretty long walk from the Buckhead station.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Unexpectedly Revised Downward)
October 2nd, 2011
8:44 pm
If folks wanted mass transit, we’d already have it. Politicians who support it would be running on that issue and getting elected. Looks like a minority of folks is trying their best to get us to waste billions on something that won’t be financially viable, like MARTA, and will require wasteful never-ending subsidies to continue operating, like MARTA.
MarkV
October 2nd, 2011
10:32 pm
Steve – USA @7:27 pm: “MarkV@11:41 These are opinion pieces not news articles. That is why they are in the “Opinion” section.”
When an opinion piece quotes another source and related arguments, it is appropriate to quote some contra-arguments.
Dumb and Dumber
October 3rd, 2011
9:06 am
Ah Dusty, cannot even comprehend the basics of rail travel. Its got to start somewhere and end somewhere. Those two “somewheres” have to be either where people live or where they want to go. The problem with the “use the existing rail line” approach is that the line will end in a switching yard. If the TSPLOST including a station to get off the line that was located where people could make connections or near their destination, that would make sense.
Sorry if I went over your head there.
A Conservative Voice
October 3rd, 2011
10:33 am
Not trying to change the subject, but…..well, I guess I am. My “opinion” is, “those I-85 Hot Lanes ain’t gonna be so hot”. Why would anyone pay to use a road that they have already helped pay for one time? How much did all this infrastructure cost to bilk us out of more wasted money? I trust the state DOT ’bout as far as I can throw ‘em to make good decisions. TSPLOST will be just another folly……it’ll never pass……..more money down the drain. The “people” will speak to this issue!!!!!
Charles Martel
October 3rd, 2011
11:28 am
The most efficient form of suburban transportation is the bus.
Heavy rail/subways are great for large, high density cities, which Atlanta is not.
Street cars are great for short, street-level trips within those cities, but not the long haul trips (i.e., too far to walk, but not far enough to ride the heavy rail/subway).
Commuter rail requires a *HUGE* downtown, much, *MUCH* larger than all of Downtown, Peachtree Center, North Avenue, and Midtown *combined*.
The automobile is great for rural and suburban day trips, i.e., the wife going to the grocery store, picking you up at the bus stop, etc.
If Atlanta, which is almost 100% suburban, wants to solve their transportation problem, they should be focused on purchasing buses and running them *EVERYWHERE*.
A Conservative Voice
October 3rd, 2011
11:36 am
I hate buses, the drivers are rude, inconsiderate and just plain arrogant, and that’s just the school buses……don’t get me started on MARTA
Bryan -- MARTA supporter
October 3rd, 2011
6:07 pm
@Charles Martel October 3rd, 2011
11:28 am
Buses are far too slow and will be stuck in the same traffic that we are trying to improve. I’m all for more bus routes but just adding more buses to the already jam packed highways is not the answer.
MARTA rail works just fine here and has been for many years. The problem is that there aren’t enough stations around the area. That’s why Atlanta still has long drawn out bus routes. If there were more stations MARTA could run shorter more direct routes and have buses coming every 10 or 12 minutes versus these long routes that come every 20 and 30 minutes.
What we need is more HEAVY rail and get rid of the idea of light rail. Heavy rail moves more people and is much faster than light rail and doesn’t run on the streets, which is just more vehicle traffic.
Atlanta can also definite handle commuter rail but it should be for places that are further than 15 or 20 miles. That is what the heavy rail is for. Cobb and Gwinnett and even Clayton would do fine with heavy rail. Save the commuter rail for places like Athens and Macon that are more than 50 miles away.
Heavy rail is going to spur dense development around the station and create jobs. We need to stop wasting time and possible money on ideas that aren’t going to help like light rail. You get what you pay for! Stop being cheap.
A Conservative Voice
October 4th, 2011
10:08 am
@Bryan — MARTA supporter
October 3rd, 2011
6:07 pm
You get what you pay for! Stop being cheap.
Bryan – STOP BEING A PUPPET
T-SPLOST list doesn’t spend the money where the traffic is | Kyle Wingfield
October 7th, 2011
5:30 pm
[...] about one in four dollars devoted to the area would go to a single rail project that would barely cross into [...]