Virginia keeps tax rates steady, Maryland raises them. Guess which one’s in surplus first?
Jim Geraghty at National Review Online brings us an interesting contrast between the two states that border Washington, D.C.:
Just days after Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell announced a $544 million surplus, Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley told county leaders Saturday that Maryland may need to increase taxes to solve a $1 billion budget gap next year.
What makes the contrast even more striking is the fact that McDonnell previously balanced an inherited $4.2 billion budget deficit that then Gov. Tim Kaine said could only be closed with a $2 billion tax increase while O’Malley has already signed the largest tax increase in Maryland history during his first term.
Both states benefit from the hiring spree and rare layoffs in the federal government, but the unemployment rate in Virginia is 6.1 percent while the unemployment rate in Maryland is 7.2 percent. (links original)
O’Malley made a direct comparison between his approach and that of the “obstructionist, economic saboteurs in Congress.” Given the results of his tax-hikes-begetting-tax-hikes approach to budget deficits — which yielded a flood of millionaires leaving the state — I don’t think he’s going to win that contest.
Btw, Politifact Georgia today rated “true” a statement that the proposed transportation sales tax, created by Georgia’s Republican-controlled Legislature and endorsed by its Republican governor, could be the largest tax hike in our state’s history.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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108 comments Add your comment
Jefferson
August 22nd, 2011
11:52 am
This does not prove a single thing.
that's goofy
August 22nd, 2011
12:04 pm
and in other news: an orange is more orange than an apple.
carlosgvv
August 22nd, 2011
12:11 pm
“a flood of millioniars leaving the state”
It must be nice to have that kind of money so that, when you are asked to pay your fair share of taxes, you can just up an move to a more “conservative” State.
resno2
August 22nd, 2011
12:15 pm
‘when you are asked to pay your fair share of taxes’
How much is their fair share?
hsn
August 22nd, 2011
12:16 pm
We need need BOTH tax hikes and lower spending to quickly close in on the national debt.
Forget the talking points.
If only tax reduction worked so well, why did Reagan have to raise the debt ceiling 17 times? Huh?? .. and the problems he inherited were not even close to this GLOBAL scale.
Can you imagine Obama requesting a debt ceiling increase even 2 times in a time of global economic crises and multiple wars?? You cons will put your interests above everything else, even if it means the country’s downfall. You are a collective disgraceful fools!
that's goofy
August 22nd, 2011
12:23 pm
c’mon Kylie – you can do better than this. All you did was comment on an article by some guy that looks like Eddie Munster.
How about some research? I think it was called “journalism” before 24 hr news and talk radio.
Is there a difference in income tax and deductions? How about sales tax? Is one state more generous to corporations? Property tax? Maybe unemployment should be factored in as well?
Jefferson
August 22nd, 2011
12:24 pm
How will Georgia balance its budget with the cuts from the feds and the debt of close to 700 million to the fed for unemployment where they gave employers an insurance premium holiday?
JDW
August 22nd, 2011
12:27 pm
Not a lot of meat here Kyle.
BTW did you know that even with the rate increase Virgina still has higher income taxes than Maryland. In MD you pay 4.75% on income over $3K but less than $150K. Then you get hit at 5.5%. In VA you pay 5% over 5K then 5.75% over $17K. So a guy making $250K in MD pays about $9900 and in VA the same guy pays $13,775. Thats 39% MORE IN VA.
I guess your point is that if taxes are at the right level you don’t need to raise them.
retired early
August 22nd, 2011
12:31 pm
Kyle
The transportation sales tax would be the “largest tax increase in state history”.
So, where do we get the money to pay for our roads and bridges when the “motor fuel tax”, the lowest in the nation, is insufficient to “Keep up” with needed improvements. What better way than a “consumption tax”, paid by all the people who benefit from the improvements. What the hell is wrong with that…oh, it’s a “TAX INCREASE”!!! From your logic, we need to dismantle all government and let each person be responsible the portion of road that runs in front of their house, then you can simply carry a gun…no need for the law, and if your house burns down…oh wait, we already pay for our individual fire protection. People living along the borders will just have to do more patrols to stop the illegals from invading…and certainly we can do without the military…once we get out of these wars…no problem there. Social security, hell, old people starved to death for years without it , we can go back to those good old days again. I can hear that GOP theme song..”only the strong survive…only the strong survive”.
JDW
August 22nd, 2011
12:41 pm
@Retired Early…”I can hear that GOP theme song..”only the strong survive…only the strong survive”.”
That was the theme song but someone pointed out that it had ties to the Theory of Evolution so it just wouldn’t do. So effective in 2009 they switched to “I Got Mine, Now I Am Going To Get Yours Too”.
jconservative
August 22nd, 2011
12:43 pm
:…the largest tax hike in our state’s history.”
Georgia Republicans = former Democrats.
But they have the magic “R” after their name on the ballot.
Speaking of former Democrats, the former Chairman of the Texas “Gore for President” campaign is now campaigning for the Republican presidential nomination.
ragnar danneskjold
August 22nd, 2011
12:59 pm
Good afternoon all. Glad for the “heads up” on the prospective “largest tax increase in Georgia history.” Sounds like a good reason to vote against all who voted for it, without regard to party affiliation.
carlosgvv
August 22nd, 2011
1:05 pm
resno2
How about the same percentage the rest of us common folk pay?
resno2
August 22nd, 2011
1:23 pm
carlosgvv, wouldn’t that have them paying less than they are now?
Figure one of us common folk is making $50,000/year. Their bracket is, what? 25%? Now take one of those mean and nasty millionaires. Their bracket is 35%. I’m sure they’d love to pay the same percentage that we are.
Mark in mid-town
August 22nd, 2011
1:25 pm
to JDW at 12:27. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Maryland also has substantial income tax levied at the county level in addition to the state rate, rendering your comparison meaningless. Overall tax rates are higher in Maryland than Virginia.
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
1:32 pm
“Given the results of his tax-hikes-begetting-tax-hikes approach to budget deficits …”
Kyle,
This is good writing!
Unfortunately, the secret that big government begets bigger government is well-kept by the mainstream media and does not register with the general public not baptized in substantive Tea Party lingo. These days, such truths will always be smothered with coverage of “ultra-right wing,” “racism,” “creationism,” “operation Rescue,” “paying THEIR fair share,” and stories about Ronald Reagan supposedly hugging trees.
When a Republican President assumes power, suddenly, the news is atwitter about homelessness and unemployment. Bring out the victims!
Actually Kyle, I think such absurdities are multiplying in the age of Obama. For instance, when Obama claims to be focusing on the economy, he’s really talking about focusing on it. When he’s talking about healthcare, he’s talking about talking about it.
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
1:38 pm
retired early,
Like that social security? Unfortunately, all those transfer payments going so that you and the Mrs., can hobnob around the country in your RV to see your grandkids all year, is weakening the country and ennervating the population. Not only are only the strong surviving, the strong are paying for everyone else, and there are fewer and fewer of them.
Heard of Greece, Spain, the UK?
The reality of the most in-debt nation in the history of the world is that someone is going to have to pay the bills eventually. Don’t believe me?
Stick around. Have kids and burden them with your debt. See what happens when we leave our borders open to the only people as a block who are extremely willing to work–uneducated people who don’t even speak the language. Where are the jobs going to go, and who’s going to have money to buy the things made by China and India?
JDW
August 22nd, 2011
1:47 pm
HORSE HOOHEY….Tell it to the people with the data. According to the Institute on Taxation & Economic Policy:
Income Percentile MD Total Effective Rate VA Total Effective Rate
0-20 9.90% 8.90%
21-40 10.00%8.50%
41-60
9.80%
8.80%
61-80
9.00%
8.90%
81-95
7.90%
8.50%
96-99
8.00%
7.80%
Top 1
6.20%
6.30%
As you can see the big difference is VA taxes higher income levels at a higher rate that MD…now where have I heard that idea before?
http://www.itepnet.org/whopays3.pdf
JDW
August 22nd, 2011
1:49 pm
OPPS that was scrambled
PTL MD VA
0-20 9.90% 8.90%
21-40 10.00% 8.50%
41-60 9.80% 8.80%
61-80 9.00% 8.90%
81-95 7.90% 8.50%
96-99 8.00% 7.80%
Top 1 6.20% 6.30%
@@
August 22nd, 2011
1:49 pm
I like McDonnell. Perhaps he’ll run for President one day. A pleasant politician focused on resolving problems, not creating more.
JDW
August 22nd, 2011
1:54 pm
@buck@gon “Unfortunately, all those transfer payments going so that you and the Mrs., can hobnob around the country in your RV to see your grandkids all year, is weakening the country and ennervating the population.”
Guess you missed the part where retirees have invested into that system for thier entire lives and are now drawing out THIER OWN MONEY. Now the bit that the Repugnicans have piSSed away on tax breaks for the wealthy, wars that needn’t have been, and defense spending that now exceeds the remainder of the world COMBINED…that part is is weakening the country and ennervating the population.
Dave R.
August 22nd, 2011
1:59 pm
Bottom-line, a $4.2 billion deficit was erased into a $544 million surplus with Republican principles being used, while a $1 billion deficit still looms in a state run on Democrat principles.
No other explanation is needed.
TrishaDishaWarEagle
August 22nd, 2011
2:02 pm
Tax cuts work..always have, always will. What we simply have to do is stop cringing when the left calls it greed. Keeping what you earn is never greed..wanting to have government take from others to give to you because you have a ‘need’ is greed. Turn the tables on them. But in the end, F ‘em..who cares what the left has to say..it’s not like their opinions or even their lives matter to me.
TrishaDishaWarEagle
August 22nd, 2011
2:09 pm
And vote NO on the regional transportation sales tax!
JDW
August 22nd, 2011
2:09 pm
@Dave R…”Bottom-line, a $4.2 billion deficit was erased into a $544 million surplus with Republican principles being used”
And Dave, just what were those principles…keep our already high taxes high until the economy improves? Seems like that is all they did.
Ayn Rant
August 22nd, 2011
2:10 pm
No matter how hard you try, Kyle, you’ll never be able to show that taxes reduce government revenue, and tax reductions increase revenue. What you’re up against is simple arithmetic!
Both Virginia and Maryland are heavily dependent on the federal government; their comparative financial situations vary according to whichever one is sucking hind teat at the moment.
what??
August 22nd, 2011
2:12 pm
Wow…this article is quite a reach.
They maintianed spending at 2006 levels…and kept higher tax rates…
I understand the spending to Republicans but that kinda disproves your mantra of tax cuts doesn’t it.
On a side note, Connecticut has a budget surplus ant they are all D’s in the legislature leadership..does that prove that democratic principles work?
Latoya
August 22nd, 2011
2:23 pm
“…that Maryland may need to increase taxes to solve a $1 billion budget gap next year.”
Maryland’s black hole, no pun intended, is the city of Baltimore.
Baltimore is MD’s Atlanta. Walk around the downtown Baltimore environs (preferably armed and before sundown) and the similarities are striking, urban decay everywhere but diversity in abundance.
carlosgvv
August 22nd, 2011
2:23 pm
resno2
Apparently, you have not considered that the rich can and do hire top-notch lawyers and tax accountants. The net result of this is that, because of tax loopholes especially legislated for them by their lacky politicians, they wind up paying little or no taxes.
saywhat?
August 22nd, 2011
2:29 pm
Kyle, you just got burned by Jim Geraghty from NRO. He didn’t mention the difference between Virginia’s and Maryland’s tax rates, like JDW did.You trusted Jim Geraghty and now he has made you look like a nincompoop. I’m not the only reader who has several times told you that you need to find better reading material. Ignore us though, and continue to get burned by authors who care more about making a non-existent point look real, than exposing actual truth.At least try to force yourself to practice just a little critical thinking and eye what you read (especially at known partisan sites) with just a little skepticism. It will save you from more embarrassing moments like this one.
Misty
August 22nd, 2011
2:38 pm
I get so tired of hearing that “pay their fair share” crap. When the bottom 50% of citizens start paying any income tax at all; we’ll talk. Until then, if a person pays 1$ in income taxes, they have paid more than their fair share.
what??
August 22nd, 2011
2:50 pm
Misty-
Fair share in this argument ws referring to state taxes…which everyone in a state pays(there is no distinction between sales tax and income tax in the states general fund)
Hillbilly D
August 22nd, 2011
3:36 pm
Let’s not forget that income taxes aren’t the only tax that people pay. My guess would be that nearly every Georgian is seeing an increase in property taxes this year. Everybody in my county is and I bet we are far from the exception.
Kyle Wingfield
August 22nd, 2011
3:46 pm
Speaking of “HORSE HOOHEY”…JDW @ 1:49: You didn’t compare apples to apples from your own link.
For Maryland, you listed effective tax rates after a federal offset…for Virginia, you listed rates before the offset.
If we do both after the offset, we get:
PTL MD VA
0-20% 9.9% 8.8%
21-40% 10% 8.4%
41-60% 9.8% 8.4%
61-80% 9% 7.9%
81-95% 7.9% 6.9%
96-99% 8% 6.6%
100% 6.2% 5.2%
The effective tax rates are also uniformly higher in Maryland if we look at the numbers before the offset.
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
3:46 pm
Jefferson @ 11:52,
YES, it proves something dramatic, compelling and damning. It shows beyond doubt that liberals will stop at no glaring truth and admit that it exists.
It’s all “racism,” “right-wing/terrorist/creationist extremists,” and “backs of the poor” from now until infinity. Meanwhile the country itself is going broke, in no small part for the “benefit” of the poor and disabled.
Kyle Wingfield
August 22nd, 2011
3:48 pm
Now, what were you saying about getting “burned” by others who make you look like a “nincompoop,” saywhat?
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
3:52 pm
Ayn Rant @ 2:10,
Proving via anecdote, history and mathematical modeling are the only ways to PROVE anything concerning taxes. Doing so provides a much more compelling “proof” say, than that global warming, which uses only one off the above, to claim that it #1 exists, and #2 is caused by man-made emissions.
Whether or not you have this proof we will leave aside. What IS more certain is that if you regulate, overregulate, tax and spend future dollars, then you will have less dollars in the future and the nation will be poorer.
Tell that to a liberal, and all you will hear is “backs of the poor” and how conservatives are starving government. It’s like Thomas Sowell said, they are simply pretending that we are talking past each other.
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
3:56 pm
“So effective in 2009 they switched to “I Got Mine, Now I Am Going To Get Yours Too”.”
I think that really this is a direct quote from Barack Obama when the mikes are off. When they’re on, it’s “pay their fair share.”
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
4:01 pm
Kyle,
I’m sure you also could find (or write!) articles aplenty about Texas’ nonparticipation in this ongoing national recession that would “prove” more of what these liberals don’t want anyone to become aware of. Liberals want it all: high taxes, very big government, rich menu of choice without traditional citizen responsibilities…..and
…oh yeah, NO criticism.
JDW
August 22nd, 2011
4:06 pm
@Kyle, my bad on the offset vs non offset…trying to do too many things at once. That does not render the main point moot however…VA Income Taxes are higher than MD’s and always were…even before they MD increases.
The other bit I notice in the breakdowns is that Virginia’s share of revenue from “non-tax” sources…read taxes described as fees…is about 33% higher than Maryland’s.
The bottom line is that the difference between the two is not recent tax policy but is more related to prior tax policy and the size of the tax base.
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
4:18 pm
JDW,
That is EXACTLY the point. You are obfuscating the facts and conflating government revenue with taxes vs. fees. Jay Bookman can’t seem to write and admit that there is any difference. Virginia does make more revenue from fees. I’m willing to bet without looking that Texas’ fees are even higher than Virginia’s. Well, it seems to be working, doesn’t it? Isn’t this great?!! Fees and taxes are very different. It is the reason, for example, that Florida’s economy is doing better than Georgia’s and that FLADOT has lots more construction projects. Ever heard of the Florida turnpike?
What this proves is that specific fees (user fees particularly) are far far better than a big daddy style mafioso federal government that says, “pay your fair share” or we’ll send out the union thugs with no accountability. What’s more is that fees and point-of-sale taxes beget more citizen involvement. If they’re going to build a tollbooth on a road you always travel, and they want to raise fees or sales taxes, everyone is affected by how much they choose to buy. You’re going to care and give your voice to the situation.
In Washington, they’re going to fill everything with bureaucratease and not read anything until they pass it. Oh yeah, and budgets: who needs ‘em? Aren’t I fairly representing Democrat failures and efforts and statements for the last 800 or so days?
If so, try to think clearly next time. Try chewing gum and typing at the same time.
Kyle Wingfield
August 22nd, 2011
4:29 pm
JDW @ 4:06: In the first place, you know as well as I do that tax rates are not the only part of the equation. Deductions and credits also matter, and — again, using your own source — the effective income-tax rate is higher in every income grouping in Maryland (except for the 1-20 percentiles, where it’s 1% in both states).
Second, as Hillbilly D pointed out earlier, income taxes are not the only taxes people pay. So, you were right to look for the total incidence of tax…just wrong to claim it’s higher in Virginia.
Finally, the article I cited in the OP did not talk about raising “income taxes,” just “taxes.”
All of these factors will only have gotten worse in Maryland since the 2007 data your source used. So I don’t think your “bottom line” is correct, either.
Linda
August 22nd, 2011
4:38 pm
buck@gon, I’m sure your great grandparents, grandparents, parents, in-laws, wife, kids, grandchildren, great grandchildren, all your other relatives, neighbors, friends, co-workers, etc. are or will be as proud of you as I am. Wish I could claim you as one of my own.
Linda
August 22nd, 2011
4:39 pm
Kyle, ditto for what I said about buck@gon!
THE "REAL" TRUTH
August 22nd, 2011
4:49 pm
LOL!! Now this is a pick em’ story. Wondering how long Kyle had to look for this and then the length of time it took to feebly attempt to tie it to some missteps by President Obama. Bottom line, tax cuts for the wealthy has done NOTHING for our country overall. The middle class is getting hammered by the loss of jobs, income, healthcare costs, etc. While the rich just keep on getting richer. C’mon, Kyle… we have a NATIONAL PROBLEM, not just a VA and MD problem. Look at the gold dome at the capital, GA is not fairing well and jobs are a thing of the past. Why not write a piece on the Republican plan here in Georgia?
Or are you afraid of what the repercussions would be?
JMM
August 22nd, 2011
4:51 pm
@Ragnar
You’re going to vote against all who voted for the transportation tax? Please be advised that the tax hasn’t actually been voted on. It will be by referendum. The only thing the legislature voted on here was allowing the electorate to vote on this. So you’re opposed to allowing voters to vote on issues? Ok. That’s an interesting notion. I, in the other hand, am still dumbfounded that we require an act of the legislature to allow us to actually vote on anything.
lil "o"
August 22nd, 2011
5:05 pm
…we have a NATIONAL PROBLEM
I agree, I agree, the NATIONAL PROBLEM is Democrat and it begins with the name barack.
Solution 2012!
Mike
August 22nd, 2011
5:05 pm
And Georgia was 50th in job creation in July (that’s 1 spot away from being last). This is a clear example that low taxes don’t automatically mean more jobs…
Guess who was number 1? Yep, Texas and they aren’t afraid to spend the money to build toll roads and rail lines and invest in their infrastructure.
fact check please
August 22nd, 2011
5:09 pm
August 22nd, 2011
5:05 pm
Jefferson
August 22nd, 2011
5:11 pm
buck, you are wrong partner.
UIC
August 22nd, 2011
5:13 pm
resno2
“Their bracket is 35%. I’m sure they’d love to pay the same percentage that we are.”
WOW. I guess if there is a person in the top tax bracket, making over $379K that is paying 35%, he’d be a person that has the same understanding of the tax code that you do. Also, don’t confuse millionaires with those in the top income bracket. Millionaires are those with net worth above $1MM. That, I’d guess, is a much bigger % of the population than those in the top tax bracket
Phil's Tel-A-Gramm
August 22nd, 2011
5:23 pm
Each state is doing what it deems its citizens want or will tolerate in order to balance their budgets in these hard times, Kyle. I do think there is much more to the story than you try to present though. It’s not all about the level of taxes in one year for two states, now is it. Otherwise, why not talk about all the states over a range of years and include tabulated data on a broad variety of matters such as education and healthcare and unemployment and per capita gdp and income distribution and poverty level and employment by industry, etc. Add a breadth and depth to your posts. Make them more interesting. Please.
Henry Grady
August 22nd, 2011
5:24 pm
Kyle-
I’m curious how you came to the conclusion that tax rates were the reason millionaires fled, when the WSJ article you cite clearly disagrees?
“No doubt the majority of that loss in millionaire filings results from the recession.”
Oh wait…I forgot, you both did the same thing by claiming a cause/effect relationship b/w the two when there is no statistically significant data showing correlation (at least put forth as of yet).
At least the WSJ is ‘honest’ enough to bury the actual cause deep in their opinion piece. You offer no such caveat when declaring the tax increases are the reason the millionaires ‘fled the state’. Hmmm…how did you and the WSJ come to such different conclusions?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Thee Magnificent!!! mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
August 22nd, 2011
5:28 pm
Further proof that the dummycrats couldn’t spell cat even if you spotted them the C and the A.
Dave R.
August 22nd, 2011
5:30 pm
“And Dave, just what were those principles…keep our already high taxes high until the economy improves?”
JDW, the principle is that when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
Once the deficit is under control, as is your spending, THEN you can cut taxes.
You fix the PROBLEM (which is your debt) FIRST.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
August 22nd, 2011
5:32 pm
Jefferson: This does not prove a single thing.
————————–
Of course not. Libtards are to be judged by their good intentions, not by results.
New normal 9% unemployment and annual $1.5 trillion deficits, for example.
Dave
August 22nd, 2011
5:33 pm
No. JDW is wrong. Maryland imposes a 4.75% income tax. The counties also impose an income, or “piggy-back,” tax on all incomes of between 2 and 3.2%. The lowest amount of income tax imposed in Maryland on the typical income is therefore 6.75%, greated than the income tax imposed in Virginia.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Thee Magnificent!!! mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
August 22nd, 2011
5:34 pm
Going back to 1890, reports the National Bureau of Economic Research, the only U.S. president with a worse record than Obama in job creation in his first two-and-a-half years in office, measured in terms of percentage change, was Herbert Hoover, presiding over the emergence of the Great Depression.
Yep, Dhimmi Karter has moved up to the 3rd worst president in history.
Phil's Tel-A-Gramm
August 22nd, 2011
5:38 pm
a number of states – such as California and Maryland – are allowing temporary tax increases to expire, thereby giving individuals and corporations reductions in their tax liability at a time when families and communities are facing large budget cuts.
I don’t think Kyle mentioned that.
By the way, Kyle, what happened to those millionaires. You got some proof that they all just packed their bags and left.
Outsider
August 22nd, 2011
5:38 pm
What if Virginia and maryland each cut their income tax rates in half — then they would see even greater revenue increases!!!! Yes, don’t you see, you always have to lower tax rates to increase revenue! Just drink the trickle down voodoo economics Kool-Aid and you’ll see!
Kyle Wingfield
August 22nd, 2011
5:41 pm
Henry @ 5:24: Sorry, meant to link to this more recent one instead: http://on.wsj.com/cHWthH
From that more recent editorial: “A Bank of America Merrill Lynch analysis of federal tax return data on people who migrated from one state to another found that Maryland lost $1 billion of its net tax base in 2008 by residents moving to other states.”
I don’t know about you, but losing $1 billion of the net tax base sounds like a flood to me. At an effective tax rate of 6.2% (see my 3:46) those people would have covered 6.2% of a $1 billion shortfall — even before any other measures were considered — if only they hadn’t been driven away.
Outsider
August 22nd, 2011
5:41 pm
I’ll bet if Georgia lowered its sales tax by one cent, instead of raised it by one cent, then we would raise WAY MORE money for transportation in Georgia!! Don’t you see, you have to lower taxes to raise revenue!!
Phil's Tel-A-Gramm
August 22nd, 2011
5:43 pm
At least 23 states have enacted identifiable, deep cuts in pre-kindergarten and/or K-12 spending. Mississippi will fail for the fourth year in a row to meet statutory spending requirements enacted to ensure adequate funding in all school districts. (The three previous years of underfunding have cost over 2,000 school employees their jobs.)
TrishaDishaWarEagle
August 22nd, 2011
6:00 pm
FLAT TAX is the only FAIR tax. Being more successful does not mean you OWE more in any moral system I would ever embrace. Thats like rewarding failure. “Hey, you are a failure, you get to pay less”
cash rules everything around me c.r.e.a.m, get the money, dolla dolla bills yall.
Rich
August 22nd, 2011
6:21 pm
Kyle,
If you make proposed solutions partisan, you hurt this country. I wish you would stop it. There is a lot of work to be done, and creating a bad atmosphere between the major parties is NOT helping.
Phil's Tel-A-Gramm
August 22nd, 2011
6:27 pm
So, I see Kyle has posted a correction to his claim that millionaires fled the state as a result of increased taxation. Really, Kyle. Your assumptions precede you.
Phil's Tel-A-Gramm
August 22nd, 2011
6:48 pm
Critics of Maryland’s 2008 tax increase on income over $1 million point to the sharp decline that year in the number of filers in the state with taxable incomes exceeding $1 million as evidence that wealthy residents were fleeing the state. But an examination of actual tax return data shows that the vast majority of this decline occurred not because people moved out of the state, but because their incomes fell below the $1 million mark due to the recession and stock market crash; they remained on the tax rolls, but in a lower tax bracket.
Truth
August 22nd, 2011
7:07 pm
Great example of a real situation and not someone’s economic theory. You have to take into account human behavior which Maryland did not. Hopefully the country will continue to learn from real examples of how to raise revenue. Raising taxes is not the answer.
Mark in mid-town
August 22nd, 2011
7:14 pm
For work, I’ve been spending a lot of time up in DC area. It’s generally understood that with rare exception, equivalently situated people will pay more in total taxes in Maryland than in Virginia. That said, both of these states are heavily dependent on the federal government. But without a doubt, the business climate in Virginia is massively superior to that of Maryland. Maryland is a heavily Democratic Party controlled state that is largely in the grips of public sector unions. Virginia is much more of a right-to-work state and is doing a far better job at attracting good high tech private sector companies to locate there. What that means is that Virginia will ultimately do a lot better than Maryland if and when federal government spending is greatly curtailed. From my vantage point, it seems that young professional people in DC area (who don’t live within DC city limits) are locating to the Virginia parts of the DC metro area at a much higher rate than they are locating to the Maryland parts of the DC metro area. In a nutshell, Virginia is out-competing Maryland and I don’t see that changing any time soon. In Maryland, the view from government is that the private sector exists to largely serve the government sector. In Virginia, the view from government is that the public sector exists to serve those in the private sector.
Phil's Tel-A-Gramm
August 22nd, 2011
7:24 pm
Tax Flight Is a Myth
Higher State Taxes Bring More Revenue, Not More Migration
I see Maryland’s tax hike is covered in this report, Kyle. How does it compare with your claims.
Suits2aTea
August 22nd, 2011
7:37 pm
If our good friend, the right honorable Kyle Wingfield, is indeed hacking and invading the computers of his merry band of commenters and then puposefully deleting and worming their hard drives, when, in real time, his “contractors” perceive that a career-destroying point is being made, well, then, may Obama have mercy on his soul.
brad
August 22nd, 2011
7:38 pm
Tell us, Trisha, what moral system have you embraced?
TrishaDishaWarEagle
August 22nd, 2011
7:42 pm
Rational self interest
“My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of woman as a heroic being, with her own happiness as the moral purpose of her life, with productive achievement as her noblest activity, and reason as her only absolute.” Ayn Rand, my mentor.
itsmeagain
August 22nd, 2011
7:47 pm
And where does Georgia, one of the most right-wing states stand on this scale? You can cherry pick your answers as much as you want, but manipulating the answer doesn’t change the facts
Phil's Tel-A-Gramm
August 22nd, 2011
7:51 pm
May social security and medicare treat all followers of Ayn Rand as well as they treated her.
Rafe Hollister
August 22nd, 2011
7:52 pm
The 26 Percent group is out in force today defending their big government agenda. 26% that approve of Obamas handling of the economy.
Suits2aTea
August 22nd, 2011
7:53 pm
Now to the point of today’s issue: the war between the classes, which are defined by income alone.
So what if millionaires flee the state? The rich are going to flee the country. Why would they? Because we are sick of being con’d by patriotic flourishes of the $7.65 GOP-bribed job-providers. We are sick to the gills of the obsolete trickle-down theory spin-meisters who justify slave-wages and then, like the Libyan monster Quadafi, just beg for the g(u)ill(otine)s.
Our economy only works when there is slavery, war, and classism, and elitism, and the “I’m better than you because I went to college” horse sheet that has wedged Americans against each other since the rebellion.
Kyle is a puppet for the right, and anything he writes is stolen from other, more lunatic-fringe blogs. He hates Obama so much that he would destroy his readers to prevent his second term.
And you all know this 2B true. Welcome to America, circa 2012.
Don’t worry, you can vote for Christine O’donnell, the USA’s 1st HOCUS POTUS.
Bwa. The citizens of this country deserve to run it. Kyle doesn’t have anything to offer but racism, elitism, classism, and of course, the dead, buried, and mouldering conservative herd-think, which has brought us all to the edge of this latest abyss.
Thank you Kyle, I’m sure your mum is proud. (In truth, she’d probably shiv’im if she knew what he’s contributing to.)
Insert Lizzy Bordan hatchet-job-of-her-son emoticon here.
Phil's Tel-A-Gramm
August 22nd, 2011
7:53 pm
What of the 14 percent group. Or is it still that high.
Rafe Hollister
August 22nd, 2011
8:03 pm
Suits2aTea
Hey there are plenty of countries that have economic systems just like you want. Maybe you can move to Cuba or Venezuela. Would you look good in a little gray coolie suit riding a worn out bicycle from your filing cabinet apartment to your wage controlled job?
TrishaDishaWarEagle
August 22nd, 2011
8:03 pm
@Phil, and I hope SS and Medicare die quick deaths because I am in my 20’s and I would rather not be raped any further to pay off an illiquid ponzi scheme. Barring that, there is tax evasion. I will NOT work as a slave to pay off the promises made to the boomers and x’ers by government. They believed in the governments promises…need I expand on why that was stupid? Why reward stupidity or blind need.
My (generations) Judgement Cometh.. and That Right Soon.
Me, Myself and I (The Holy Trinity)
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
8:10 pm
Jefferson @ 511,
Oooh, impressive argument! You got me there.
Is this like Obama “debating” the healthcare issue and saying to Sen McCain, “John, I won!”?
Sounds like it to me.
Keep ignoring truth. I’m looking forward to a better version of hope and change.
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
8:13 pm
Luckovich’s “space alien” cartoon is evidence that when liberals don’t have anything relevant or pertinent to say for the times that is worth anything at all, they go back to what they were taught when they were drones in public schools.
Luckovich is just a scribbling drone now.
Here’s hoping that as much of him as we see of Cynthia Tucker these days.
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
8:39 pm
Jefferson (& Kyle),
If you want evidence for the preponderance of left-wing lunacy, witness Suits @ 7:53. Despite him scolding someone for being a puppet, I’ve not read something so nutty on K Wingfeld’s blog yet, left or right.
The idea is (and he probably hasn’t figured this out yet), that those who “are sick to the gills of the obsolete trickle-down theory spin-meisters who justify slave-wages and then, like the Libyan monster Quadafi, just beg for the g(u)ill(otine)s” also desperately (one would think) want to work for more money, can not get it by themselves or their own efforts, so they are going to elect someone (Democrats mainly) who will promise to get it for them.
Herein lies a cunundrum or a series of dilemmas for them (which they pretend not to notice and feign to explain). Either those who want more are being stolen from, which justifies essentially re-thieving it, which in turn is an extremely negative outlook from which to base a society–this is a society based on envy, pull, muscle and mistrust; OR those who are not getting as much money as they want, are too dumb or unable to get what they want. Here we must make the very unreasonable assumption that those who can not do for themselves, are somehow smart enough to ELECT someone who can give them what they need–even though they may not know exactly what that will be. This is the Marxist utopia, I suppose, the vanguard that does for all, just like the guillotine brought decades of misery to France and Europe. Would you trust Suits to offer you that utopia when he’s talking about guillotines? Honestly?
Please understand that if class warfare is taken seriously, then the ends justify the means. The guillotine, indeed. I remind you that the French Revolution, romantic as it was, ended VERY badly, with great tyranny, wars and loss of life.
Ironically, what he also seems to be saying is that he can see clearly everything that is going on, while we are apparently too hypnotized to notice that we are either thieving (if we have money) or being ripped off (if we don’t)–and again, this is all PURELY based on income (if you even pretend to take him seriously).
It’s an amazing circle of contradictions for these liberals. Sometimes, I don’t know how they do it with a straight face.
It does explain much about their witless writings, clueless understandings to pertinent questions and their seemingly humorless lives.
Not much fun, are they?
You should take conservatives more seriously. We’re more fund and in our writings we don’t focus much on Nazis, racists or guillotines. I think it’s one thing to theorize that someone you’re debating against might be a puppet of some kind. It’s entirely another to follow the rantings of a lunatic as reasonable discourse and trust him. That is to say that your problems are your problems. You own them. For someone to come along (whether Obama or Suits) and tell you that your problem is some nefarious group of (rich, white, bankers, men, plutocrats, puppets(or whatever tripe he comes up with) doesn’t make you smarter or wiser. It makes you the follower of an idiot, or the fool of a fool.
The silly liberals & Marxists do provide interesting exhibits, however, for daily discussion on the lower depths and bad characters possible in human nature.
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
8:44 pm
The other thing about Suits is that he assumes openly that most people who don’t believe as he does can’t know the truth. What’s pathetic is that he doesn’t even TRY to notice it, much less express it.
Publius
August 22nd, 2011
8:54 pm
The extreme accumulation of resources within a small number of rich can be dangerous. Has anyone seen the relatives of the Russian Czars lately?
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
8:57 pm
Phil’s @ 7:24,
Revenues? Migration?
How about “small business” Phil?
Liberal um…studies…pretend that the conflation between revenue and taxes is important, as if the state itself were the highest and best, and most necessary recipient of money. Bad assumption.
One might turn your posted study in on itself and consider that states (say, California or New York) with a very highly paid government workforce and many many people on government assistance and housing assistance will have higher housing prices than say, Georgia or Florida where the government workforce is smaller and less well-paid.
The success of a state ain’t how much dough its government rakes in off its citizens–I know this is the current liberal understanding. A state does well if its citizens do well. Look at Texas, Florida, other states where small businesses thrive. How can they thrive? No or little harassment from unions, government regulators, EPA bureaucratese, lower taxes, workforce willing and able to work.
Again, this is an example of you talking right past all the most obvious evidence.
buck@gon
August 22nd, 2011
9:05 pm
Pubus,
Were I a descendent of one of them, I’d consider that an open threat. As it is, we have the guillotine already mentioned on this thread. Do you like that sort of talk? Is this your thing to encourage people NOT to make money because it’s (prima facie) dangerous? I suppose that Marie Antionette’s money was as dangerous as a nice car is to its driver when the carjacker shoots him and steals it.
Theft is theft. So the first guy who sat down and farmed and stored stuff or mined gold was creating danger then? The thief/murderer is just doing what, …producing?
You seem to have a very irrational understanding of human nature based on animal unreason. Given your statement, I comprehend how you could be so entirely daft, but I haven’t lost nearly as much faith in the non-animal part of the human race as you have.
Money doesn’t kill anyone Pubis. Why don’t you tell us how the money is dangerous when people with guns, pitchforks and real weapons are doing the killing?
TrishaDishaWarEagle
August 22nd, 2011
9:06 pm
Publius, true but if one can take a few thousand moochers with then as they go, and leave a scortched earth burn everything on the way out, landscape to greet the mooching masses when they storm the kremlin, leaving the moochers to sift thru and eat hot ashes, it’s a moral victory.
Phil's Tel-A-Gramm
August 22nd, 2011
9:13 pm
One might do many things, buck. For example, one might try posting studies based on real data, as I have done for your reading entertainment.
Phil's Tel-A-Gramm
August 22nd, 2011
9:16 pm
Trisha,
Is that world of warcraft talk from you. It does not seem to be of this world.
TrishaDishaWarEagle
August 22nd, 2011
9:22 pm
No, it is simply the first thing that always pops into my head when people use the old “you better give people something they demand or they will just take it from you”, line of thinking on me.
As an example, when I was little, my friend was over for a play date. She wanted to play with my favorite doll, which was not going to happen. My mom of course told me I had to share it with my cousin..I felt betrayed in many ways, so I broke the dolls head off and handed her both pieces of the doll and said fine, play with it. If something is mine, and any authority..be it parents, or government, makes me share it, the intended recipient will not be happy with what they actually get out of me..I’ll always see to that.
TrishaDishaWarEagle
August 22nd, 2011
9:26 pm
I would also at this point say, Viva Joe Stack! You may remember him as the man who flew his private plane into the IRS building. The IRS were about to seize both the plane, and his home, which he set fire to before flying to the IRS building. THEY GOT NOTHING!
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
August 22nd, 2011
9:38 pm
Anybody bought anything made in Greece lately? Of course not. They don’t make anything. Their population has an extremely high concentration of maggots who either “work” for the government or are dependent on it for handouts. A liberal’s dream. A failed state.
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
August 22nd, 2011
9:42 pm
And speaking of maggots…
——————-
Social Security disability on verge of insolvency
“It’s primarily economic desperation,” Social Security Commissioner Michael Astrue said in an interview. “People on the margins who get bad news in terms of a layoff and have no other place to go and they take a shot at disability,”
Also, people who qualify for Social Security disability automatically get Medicare after two years, even if they are younger than 65, the age when other retirees qualify for the government-run health insurance program.
TrishaDishaWarEagle
August 22nd, 2011
9:59 pm
@Lil’ barry bailout
Modern Greeks are all the moral descendents of the ancient thebans, who sided with Xerxes I (another self important ass with historically documented large ears) against their fellow Greeks freedom, for a little persian welfare. Of Course, at Plataea, the thebans were mutilated after death for kicks by the spartans.
TrishaDishaWarEagle
August 22nd, 2011
10:01 pm
Come to think of it, Spartans=spartan=austerity..History repeats:)
Lil' Barry Bailout (Revised Downward)
August 22nd, 2011
10:05 pm
We could use a whole lot of sparseness here in the U.S. When you’re paying for free cell phones for non-working losers and subsidizing airfares to small airports to the tune of thousands of dollars a ticket, there is PLENTY that can be cut.
buck@gon
August 23rd, 2011
12:58 am
JDW,
Sorry I missed the SS reference. Geez! I didn’t even SEE the nazi reference, and I referred to it in a post to someone else about how humorless liberals communicate and can’t stop being so witless, repetitive, monotonous, uncreative, etc.
Damn, I’m good!
Far as your investing your OWN money….OK, where’s your account balance? Where are the withdrawal slips? And while we’re at it JDW, you didn’t invest. You had no choice. The fed took it from you without your permission, spent it immediately on other people and other programs and “theorized” that somehow they could keep the program running forever, continuing to pay future retirees with future dollars that would materialize just when the government needed to pay them as they always had before.
Well, guess what? The dollars aren’t there anymore. In ten years (or sooner) we’ll be borrowing money just to pay entitlement programs, period. Forget defense, parks, salaries, Canadian busses, trips to Martha’s vineyard, etc. Money’s just not there.
Maybe you think… no, maybe you FEEL you’re still entitled to the money that was taken from you by force?
My generation (40’s), grew up knowing that someday social security would be bankrupt and unable to pay us anything. So it is.
One day, JDW, the sunny days are going to go away. You won’t want it to rain, but that’s life. What are you going to do then; blame the rain? curse your fate?
buck@gon
August 23rd, 2011
1:14 am
Phil @ 9:13
I wouldn’t dream of wasting my time investigating a study on jobs in Texas, when you’re just going to (again) conflate government revenue and taxes, and re-present your own half-baked study funded and designed to make the political point you half-heartedly attempted to make.
Sorry Phil. If you have a specific question, you can ask. I’ll produce whatever evidence I need to prove (again) that you are wrong.
As for your request for Kyle to produce data on education, poverty, income distribution..etc….etc., etc. You must be joking! Why add to your confusion by talking past everything?
Income distribution is a leftists statistic pure and simple. Example: a guy starts out his career at 20 years old. Statistically he is poor, lowest quintile, government must intervene and save this fellow. Five years later, (but not in this crappy economy) he’s making more money, got a raise, got married, bought a house and is doing well. Though his statistic is gone for Democrat politics, he’s got a younger sister who is just starting out too. Endless parade of “victims” to lobby for.
This is why liberals can’t communicate, and why all your fellow liberals on this blog, use blatantly Marxist and nazist references in their posts. You guys would rather prove someone wrong than address problems head-on. You would rather conflate issues than acknowledge them–our current President is the worst in the world at doing this, and therefore, he is the worst president this country has ever had.
buck@gon
August 23rd, 2011
1:23 am
“Kyle,
If you make proposed solutions partisan, you hurt this country. I wish you would stop it. There is a lot of work to be done, and creating a bad atmosphere between the major parties is NOT helping.”
Rich:
“Lighten up, Francis”
–Sgt Hulka, from STRIPES
So, it’s not really a solution unless its non-partisan, eh? We all know what that means. Obama has to like it for it to be nonpartisan. I guess that means every solution is partisan if the Tea Party likes it.
So, what about our feelings, Francis?—er, I mean Rich?
Cuious
August 23rd, 2011
5:13 am
Anybody know why the French Revelution happened? Tell me, please.
All you Great Americans; why haven’t you joined the Military? Show your love of Country.
Finally.Does anyone beside me think Lil Barry Bailout is the idiot?
Phil's Tel-A-Gramm
August 23rd, 2011
7:15 am
Lots of rambling there, Buck. Got anything worthwhile.
Henry Grady
August 23rd, 2011
11:45 am
Kyle-
So…the WSJ opinion page in a year’s time goes from saying “No doubt the majority of that loss in millionaire filings results from the recession” in 2009 to “Yes, a big part of that decline results from the recession that eroded incomes, especially from capital gains” in 2010 and that somehow validates your assumption of correlation for a mass exodus?
While there most certainly is SOME correlation, note that the WSJ article itself includes the calculation…1 in 8 who filed a return prior filed no return the year after…which means AT WORST the state lost 12.5% of its millionaires b/c of the tax…but certainly some died and others left for other reasons…a far cry from the 33% number trotted out earlier in the piece. The implication that this tax has created a mass migration seems to be misleading, at best, and a downright fabrication at worst.
Now if you want to take a real, statistical look at causal relationship b/w millionaires moving because of the tax rate, I suggest you get off the WSJ opinion page and go to this study…
http://www.stanford.edu/~cy10/public/Millionaire_Migration.pdf
Interesting findings to be sure.
Kyle Wingfield
August 23rd, 2011
12:09 pm
Henry @ 11:45: If you’re not going to respond to the specific, statistical point I raised in my last comment, why should I respond to you?
Henry Grady
August 23rd, 2011
5:26 pm
Well…for one, you’re the ‘expert’ here, so I would assume you would be more concerned with addressing inadequacies/inaccuracies in your opinion column than getting into some sort of battle of wills…but if you want to go tit-for-tat, that’s fine.
First, let’s be frank. Your ’specific, statistical point’ was based upon a ‘report’ that is neither cited nor explained in the WSJ column. We are just to believe the statement as fact based upon the report of the WSJ. (pssst…that’s called hearsay and wouldn’t be admissible in any sort of court proceeding, but no matter, you and the rest of the Internet can go right on regurgitating it).
Second, to quote the WSJ in the same article ..”the taxes paid by rich filers fell by 22%, …they fell by some $257 million” What I can’t figure out is why neither you nor the WSJ seem interested in actually reconciling this fact with the figure cited from the BOA/ML report of losing $1B of the net tax base. How big is the total net tax base, for example, would be a good start. What does ‘tax base’ include? Etc. Etc.
So…you’ve got the factual data that only 12.5% of the millionaires actually could have left. (Again, fact that doesn’t seem like a ‘flood’.)
You’ve got the factual data that the tax revenues by ‘rich filers’ fell by $257 M (Again, fact, and again that doesn’t seem like a flood considering the other factors).
How to fit your ’statistical point’ based upon an unknown and unseen report into these known quantities? That’s your problem…and you’re the one with a premise that seems to be undercut by the facts in the articles you cited. You’re first step might be to get your hands on the actual report before you starting throwing it out there third hand as backing for your underlying idea.
I’m not arguing that the migration wasn’t affected by the tax increase. I think that’s a pretty simple economic principle. The question is How Much was migration affected. Was it a “Flood”? I’ve cited two solid facts that are verifiable plus linked to a detailed report ..all of which says, millionaire migration was probably not heavily affected based upon the types of increases Maryland and New Jersey imposed. You cited hearsay from an opinion piece and seem content with that. With that, I give you the difference between opinion pieces and journalism.
Anyway, you get the idea. Feel free to take a look at what a well-sourced opinion column looks like over at the NY Times.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/what-the-rich-can-afford-in-income-tax/
Kyle Wingfield
August 23rd, 2011
6:08 pm
Henry:
If you want to base your argument on the speculation that the WSJ might have reported erroneously on the Merrill study, that’s your prerogative.
Everything else you wrote at 5:26 follows from that (misguided, imo) notion. We’ve already established that a large number of the reduction in millionaire filings had to do with the economy rather than migration. So, it is not at all contradictory to report that the study found the tax base fell by $1 billion due to migration, and that taxes paid in this bracket fell by a larger amount (i.e., $257 million) than one would expect strictly from the loss of that tax base. I don’t see the need to “reconcile” those figures.
That brings us down to a matter of opinions, since you concede some kind of link between the tax policy and migration. I call it a “flood” when one in eight members of a group chooses to move rather than comply with a new law. You don’t. Fine. That’s your opinion. But that’s also what I’d call your contention that you’ve somehow objectively undercut my argument with a non-contradictory “contradiction” and a report about what happened in a different state — an opinion, nothing more.
Henry Grady
August 23rd, 2011
7:24 pm
You, sir, are resting your case on a study you have never actually seen. You couldn’t give one detail beyond the non-detailed detail you have cited.
Go ahead. All I am saying is that a 12% migration doesn’t equal a flood, objectively or subjectively, except in your judgement.
artb
August 27th, 2011
8:28 am
What you didn’t mention is that McDonnell got acheived the surplus by borrowing against the state’s retirement fund. PURE REPUBLICAN FLAUDULENCE!