Wisconsin protests not about budget? In a way, yes
It didn’t take long for the meme that the government-versus-unions showdown in Wisconsin isn’t about the budget to make it from Ezra Klein’s blog to the rest of the liberal blogosphere. Maybe the JournoList lives after all.
But in a sense, our friends on the left may be correct. For people outside Wisconsin, this story is not about whether Gov. Scott Walker has to make public employees contribute X dollars more to their pensions or Y percent of their health insurance in order to close a deficit of Z dollars in 2012-13.
It’s about whether public-sector labor unions — and the disproportionate power they wield over the elected officials who are supposed to be their bosses — are an antidemocratic anachronism.
Actually, “anachronism” implies that they were appropriate at one time. No less of a progressive icon than Franklin Delano Roosevelt declared it “unthinkable and intolerable” to have government-worker unions which could strike against the taxpayers who fund their livelihoods — and whom the public employees are supposed to serve. It’s not clear to me that the case was ever really different after FDR’s time.
It’s one thing if auto workers go on strike and the assembly line shuts down for a time. It’s quite another when tenured teachers go on strike and the schools have to shut down for days at a time to accommodate them.
As James Sherk of the Heritage Foundation put it in a commentary on the New York Times’ website, “The founders of the labor movement viewed unions as a vehicle to get workers more of the profits they help create. Government workers, however, don’t generate profits. They merely negotiate for more tax money.”
Among many of the Americans who work in the private sector, the specter of teachers and other public workers going on strike only reinforces the idea that they fit squarely in a “ruling class” that includes politicians, lobbyists and other rent-seekers but excludes the average American.
This is why those who speak about an American plutocracy, essentially a combination of elected officials and the special interests who buy them off to get what they want outside what we consider the democratic process, are looking at the problem too narrowly. Most people probably wouldn’t label school teachers and bureaucrats as “plutocrats.” But what else can we say about those public employees who are refusing to perform essential services — on which government has a monopoly or near-monopoly in most cases — in order to subvert the mandate of the electorate, if not that they are undermining the democratic process?
They, and their Democratic allies in Wisconsin’s Senate, are using leverage that no other group of citizens has in pushing elected officials to bend to their wishes. That’s why all their talk about standing up for democracy rings so hollow.
And that’s why the left is partially correct: This is not only about Wisconsin’s budget.
– By Kyle Wingfield
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116 comments Add your comment
Logical Dude
February 21st, 2011
1:45 pm
“It’s about whether public-sector labor unions — and the disproportionate power they wield over the elected officials who are supposed to be their bosses — are an antidemocratic anachronism.”
So, you’re for eliminating all Public sector unions? Police, Fire, Teachers, etc etc?
Is it just because they have disproportionate powere, or is it because they are an antidemocratic anachronism?
Freedom Lover
February 21st, 2011
1:45 pm
Where is the outrage that police and fire are exempt from this law? If this is about the budget, and it certainly IS, whatever else it is about, the police and fire folks and their pensions, benefits, etc. are contributing to the problem as much as the teachers and other government employees. There is a truth that nobody wants to acknowledge and that is that the state governments cannot just print money out of thin air to pay off their friends like the federal government can. The trillions in “stimulus” funds have worsened the problem of inflation, reduced the value of the dollar (thus undermining the retirements of everyone), and were not based on increased “revenue” to the feds.
The states only get their money by stealing it from the citizens either through property, income, or sales taxes. They do not earn it. They have no price mechanism as a business in the productive sector does. There is no profit motive or any true appreciation of costs or value. Every state in the nation has allowed their employees to demand and GET benefits, salaries, pensions, etc. that are far beyond what is sustainable in the current economic climate. While many are able to retire after only 20 years on the job, those in the productive private sector may be facing the need to work 40-50 years to insure that these government pensions stay fully funded. That is flat out disgusting and the people of the states will not stand for it forever.
This is as important a moment for the members of the productive class as it is for the legislatures of the states. A decision must be made as to whether to continue with the current parasite/host relationship or whether a serious change must be made to insure the economic viability of the state and the future of its citizens.
Kingfish
February 21st, 2011
1:46 pm
2st
Rafe Hollister
February 21st, 2011
1:46 pm
Great post Kyle. You are correct the private sector unions are regulated by competition. As Eastern Airlines, the UAW, and the Steel Workers have found out, we can get along without them.
Public sector employees have no competition. It is a rigged process, either give in to their demands or they shut down government.
Dems talked excessively about democracy and the power of the majority as they slammed us with Obamacare and the Stimulus, but turnaround does not set well with the liberal elite or the Obama Media.
Rafe Hollister
February 21st, 2011
1:51 pm
Freedom Lover
You are correct, the WI governor gave in to the Police and Fire Dept unions. They should also be included. None of the public sector employees should be allowed to unionize. They already have civil service protection. I say this as a former non union public sector employee.
jconservative
February 21st, 2011
1:52 pm
Nice piece of writing Kyle. I concur completely.
And I do not have a single comment to make beyond that.
jconservative
February 21st, 2011
1:56 pm
Well I do have a comment. I just cannot stand sitting by with a soapbox handy.
As all know I am fond of irony.
You and me and FDR!
Is that a set of amigos or what!
get out much?
February 21st, 2011
1:56 pm
Well, if the goal is to attract and retain the best teachers, I am sure slashing salaries and benefits is the way to go.
supportteachers
February 21st, 2011
1:57 pm
Seriously??? Have you seen what teachers, firefighters, police officers and other public servants get paid? It is abysmally low except in the few states where unions protect them from continuous cuts by administrators. If we would just eliminate tax cuts for the wealthiest companies in the world (oil comapnies) we wouldn’t have to ask our teachers, etc. to give up their pay and benefits because the Exxons and BPs of the world make 10s of billions in profits. (The Koch brothers are helping to fund the governor in Wisconsin.) Why are we attacking middle class workers who are struggling to eek out a living. At least they work. What would we do without teachers, firefighters and polic officers. I am disgusted by how we are treating them to give the wealthy their tax breaks (which is why Wisconsin is really having budget problems.)
Jimmy62
February 21st, 2011
2:06 pm
Supportteachers: Those businesses would just relocate. Just like the teachers in Wisconsin will if they don’t like the pay there.
The rise in spending in Wisconsin as well as anywhere in the US has far outstripped the rise in population and GDP. Which means spending, no tax cuts, is the problem.
JP
February 21st, 2011
2:08 pm
Not sure I’d put teachers, firefighters, and policemen in the “ruling class”…..
JP
February 21st, 2011
2:10 pm
and if you’re going to talk about a ruling class, how about EVERY lobbyist that buys off our representatives (repub or dem), not just those affiliated with unions.
Petulant Liberalism Run Amok
February 21st, 2011
2:11 pm
Governor Walker’s alternative to fix the budget is to kick about 200,000 children off Medicaid. Collective bargaining is un-American, and un-democratic. The TAXPAYERS should have a say in how their money is spent with their vote (read: bills and amendments), and with union collective bargaining, they have no say, no vote, no voice.
But leave it to the Democrat liberal left to call that fair and just. And regarding what’s going on in Wisconsin, has anyone else notices the hateful and threatening comments and actions of these union goons? They are threatening to burn down the WI state capitol. They are threatening to hang governor Walker and calling him the new Hitler. They are saying his actions of trying to freaking get spending under control that was OUT of control under Democrat liberal rule are declaring war on public/government workers. The teachers have gone on strike through lying and saying they were all “sick” and doctors even collaborating with them and handing out FRAUDULENT sick notes.
And the stalwart Democrat liberal politician hacks in WI are still AWOL like a bunch of cowardly children afraid to face a tough fight. Can you imagine the uproar if Conservative Republicans had pulled a stunts like these for one of their causes? Never mind the impact on children and God knows what they are being indoctrinated with in those horrid government schools. I mean, $90k in wages and benefits on average and teachers and Democrat liberals act like they’d be in soup lines under Walker’s proposal. Pathetic.
I mean SERIOUSLY?? And Democrat liberals called the Tea Party movement a danger to America. It’s disgustingly hypocritical.
Tychus Findlay
February 21st, 2011
2:16 pm
How about instead of paying teachers more, we give them total discretion to maintain discipline in the classroom? Private school teachers on average get paid less than their public sector counterparts yet claim an overall higher sense of job satisfaction stemming from the fact that they get to serve as an educator first and disciplinarian second, whereas public schools are the opposite.
Nobody wants to earn public school teacher’s salary AND have to deal with the constant disruptions in the classrooms. It’s small wonder the best qualified teachers stay out of the public school system and the lesser qualified ones only know how to strike for more money,
Give them back their classrooms and a lot of the problems in the public school system will correct themselves.
Trusslady
February 21st, 2011
2:16 pm
Yes, we are public employees, whose salaries are paid with tax dollars. But I pay taxes also, so I am in effect paying my own salary. If there is no collective bargaining allowed, public employees will be subject to the salary whims of whichever tea party type initiative is currently in vogue. I’ve hear for years you want the best and brightest in public service, but treat them like your maid or yard worker and that is what you will get. That and we’ll really be like the third world country we’re becoming where public employee’s augment their meager salaries with bribes/extortion.
Before you all tell us how you would run the public service, try doing a bit of your partriotic duty and work for the government.
We need MORE unionS
February 21st, 2011
2:17 pm
The WI governor gave away 160 million dollars in tax cuts and credits to corporations in January, instead of balancing the budget. So the whole thing starts with a LIE!
We don’t have unions for teachers or any other state employees in GA.
But, the state, counties and cities here still have MASSIVE DEBT, layoffs and furloughs for these workers. Also, our schools are rated about 48th in the nation– SO IT AIN’T THE UNIONS FAULT!
What we do have are republicans at every level of government! The GOP equals failure!
RB
February 21st, 2011
2:18 pm
It’s simple, if I have no money in my checking account, why bother going to an ATM. These teachers are funded by the state tax payers. Sounds like the Governor is going for a right to work state, which would be good long term.
supportteachers
February 21st, 2011
2:18 pm
The biggest part of most state budgets by far is Medicare and Medicaid. It is certainly not teacher salaries!!! By the way, state workers (except some politicians) pay taxes too. If the Tea Party is so serious about cutting budgets let them cut seniors’ Medicare and tell me how that goes.
Kyle Wingfield
February 21st, 2011
2:29 pm
jconservative: I do appreciate the irony of that trio
supportteachers: In Georgia the average teacher makes at least $10,000 a year more than the average of all workers; the average police officer makes 95 percent of the average of all workers, the average firefighter 85 percent: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_ga.htm#25-0000
I wouldn’t characterize any of those salaries as “abysmally low.”
JP: I didn’t intend to imply that I meant only lobbyists affiliated with unions.
JP
February 21st, 2011
2:32 pm
Kyle – seriously, would you really consider teachers, firemen, and policemen part of a ruling class in this country. Really?
Committee of Public Safety
February 21st, 2011
2:32 pm
It didn’t take long for the meme that the government-versus-unions showdown in Wisconsin isn’t about the budget to make it from Ezra Klein’s blog to the rest of the liberal blogosphere. Maybe the JournoList lives after all.
Methinks you give Mr. Klein a little too much credit. I, for one, haven’t read Klein on this particular issue, and I certainly don’t need to get my political breakdown from the Washington Post of all places.
Not sure where to start here. I love uncle Franklin as much as the next Kapital-toting, grubby-handed socialist, but he was dead wrong on this one, I have to say. In any case, your logic is so tortuously misguided that I really don’t know where to start. But don’t you think it’s a bit much to lump in sanitation workers, firefighters, and others into the ‘plutocracy’? At first I though it was meant in jest, but I think you really mean it. Which means, you must really think it makes sense to lump in public workers who do valuable service to society with people like Anthony Mozilo, Lloyd Blankfein, Jamie Dimon, not to mention the Brothers Koch and their minions. Which is, a little bit, oh I don’t know, obscene as a comparison, don’t you think?
Get on with it
February 21st, 2011
2:33 pm
Dont you know there are tens of thousands of teachers being forced into the union and they dont want to be. The money teachers pay for union dues goes to the big union dogs and they give that money to the democratic party for keeping them in power.
You cut the Unions and teachers get more money and they have more power to teach the right way. They also have the choice of taking a job or moving on with another system. The bad teachers (and there are plenty of them) would then be removed for poor job performance and thats exactly what we need. We need good teachers taking care of our kids education but thats not what we have. We have big Union pushing the good and the BAD and our kids suffer.
Union has no right in the federal government at all, anywhere. Government workers need to do the same job functions as the private sector and get paid the same way, but earning promotions and production and outcome. I can tell you one thing; if I had a company of my own there is one group I would never hire and thats a out of work government worker. I have seen way to often their job eithic and it does not look good most of the time.
Blah
February 21st, 2011
2:33 pm
Teachers are the only group I constantly hear talking about how “little” they make. Did someone trick them into goinng into teaching and then lower the salary?
Kyle Wingfield
February 21st, 2011
2:34 pm
MORE unionS: The budget deficit is $3.6 billion — or 22.5 times as much as the tax cuts you mentioned.
supportteachers @ 2:18: Wrong, at least in Georgia. Education makes up about 55 percent of state spending here, and the vast majority of that is for teachers’ salaries (local money pays for most everything else).
Get on with it
February 21st, 2011
2:35 pm
Sorry about the typo’s.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
February 21st, 2011
2:35 pm
Good argument Mr. Wingfield.
Kyle Wingfield
February 21st, 2011
2:38 pm
JP @ 2:32: I would consider their unions to be, yes.
Kyle Wingfield
February 21st, 2011
2:41 pm
See here for more: http://reason.com/archives/2010/01/12/class-war
John
February 21st, 2011
2:42 pm
Every teeacher and public employee who called in sick when they were actually protesting should be prosecuted fpr the felony of making a false statement to a government agency, go to prison and have their teaching credentials revoked forever. Every teacher should be given until tomorrow ro report back to work. If they don’t, they should be fired. Hire teachers who want to work. Any teacher or public employee who goes on strike is making the statement that they don’t want their job. I don’t want rifraff like that teaching my child.
supportteachers
February 21st, 2011
2:44 pm
Kyle: From the link you shared, here is the actual data for Georgia:
Wage Estimates
Occupation Title Mean Annual
All Occupations $41,340
Teachers and Instructors $22,060 (Difference: -$19,280 (almost 50%) less than all workers’ average)
The “all education” number you quoted which is still abysmally low (teachers in GA 2nd lowest paid in U.S.) includes professors who have earned Ph.D.s and thus get paid a little bit more. This does not bode well for the future in GA because businesses are not attracted to states with poor education systems and low education levels.
DW
February 21st, 2011
2:45 pm
Umm yea.. they should just shut up and take it so that rich folks can keep tax breaks
JF McNamara
February 21st, 2011
2:47 pm
I have a hard time seeing teachers as a villain. The problem is that if they don’t have a union, then they have no voice. What are they supposed to do? They can’t afford high dollar lobbyist like private industry which basically serves as their “union” if you will. Private industry buys power and no one seems to care. How is that any different than a teacher strike?
If the teacher’s union is so powerful, why isn’t everyone rushing to become a teacher? They aren’t. They are rushing to private industry because teaching salaries are bad. To me, that pretty much invalidates any talk of teachers being part of some elite group.
that's goofy
February 21st, 2011
2:50 pm
Kyle – take a look at your own paper sometime. How much money filters into the board of education offices? Take a look at salaries for superintendents, supervisors and directors. Should the head of a school district’s HR dept. make over 100K in tax payer money? A higher percentage flows to those that do not teach.
The fight in Wis is about salaries and being treated professionally. Would you work at the AJC if the readers voted on your compensation?
DW
February 21st, 2011
2:53 pm
well put JF macnamara
xdog
February 21st, 2011
2:54 pm
Ever hear of blue flu, John?
To the main point, it’s clear that Walker’s move is more about union busting than budget balancing. And tell me again why the cops and firefighters were excluded?
Kyle Wingfield
February 21st, 2011
2:54 pm
supportteachers: I’m sorry, but you are flat-out wrong about every statistic in your 2:44, save the one for “All Occupations.”
The line item to which you refer is for “Teachers and Instructors, All Other,” which essentially means people who don’t fit into one of the 48 other categories of teachers in the survey. Here are the line items for teachers in k-12 schools:
Kindergarten Teachers, Except Special Education: $47,150
Elementary School Teachers, Except Special Education: $52,390
Middle School Teachers, Except Special and Vocational Education: $51,860
Vocational Education Teachers, Middle School: $54,540
Secondary School Teachers, Except Special and Vocational Education: $53,610
Vocational Education Teachers, Secondary School: $54,680
Special Education Teachers, Preschool, Kindergarten, and Elementary School: $51,550
Special Education Teachers, Middle School: $50,900
Special Education Teachers, Secondary School: $54,540
I haven’t compiled the information, but this website has done so and reports that Georgia ranks 19th in the nation in average teacher salary, which, as you may realize, is a long way from 49th: http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/average-teacher-salary-georgia.html
Kyle Wingfield
February 21st, 2011
2:57 pm
JF: Teachers don’t have collective bargaining in Georgia and, as the stats I cited at 2:54 indicate, they seem to be doing OK compared to all other workers and compared to other teachers around the country.
that’s goofy: I agree wholeheartedly that we spend too much money on administration.
Linda
February 21st, 2011
2:57 pm
The demise of the state public unions could have begun with dysfunction & lack of performance outside the classroom:
http://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.com/2011/02/18/in-midst-of-financial-crisis-wisconsin-union-sue-for-viagra/
Dan
February 21st, 2011
3:05 pm
People seem to think that low teachers salaries, equates to lack of respect or a dearth of understanding, but it is not. It is the law of supply and demand, an economic law that is as inflexible as gravity. It is not about left or right politics, and it is not subjective. The number of teachers necessary for public education means the ratio of teachers to taxpayers is very high. This causes the resources to be spread thin, both monetarily and qualitativly. I often hear comparisons of “athletes get make millions while teachers, firemen and police make almost nothing (and I come from a family of cops). Generally speaking if you divided how much each person in a given city pays for Football players, teachers, cops and firemen, they would be ranked teachers, cops, firefighters, and football players. This is dictated by how many of each are necessary, and teachers cost 2 or 3 times as much as the others. I am not saying it is unreasonable or should be less, just providing a dose of reality.
Freedom Lover
February 21st, 2011
3:16 pm
“But I pay taxes also, so I am in effect paying my own salary”
Truly dubious “logic.” No, what it means is that the productive sector pays your taxes too since every penny you get paid came from them.
Unfortunately we have allowed government and its supporters to convince us that certain services can ONLY be provided by government. And yet, 80+% of all firemen in this country are volunteers, private security personnel keep hundreds of thousands of people safe despite the presence of government police, private teachers and parents provide education to millions accross the country, private trash services pick up billions of tons of garbage every year and the list could go on and on. I don’t want to debate federal services, but certainly at the state level there is not a single service or function that could not be handled either by collectives of private citizens, charitable groups, non-profits, or private businesses.
The difference, and it is the key difference is that if all of these services are provided in the context of a free and competitive market, the consumer becomes the decider, not the politicians.
So whether or not some of the income that you get from the productive sector goes back in to cover some of your wages, the reality is that government employees do not work in a conpetitive marketplace where their continued employment is decided through the voluntary exchange of money for goods or services as determined by the voluntary consumer. Until such time, the money is just stolen.
Logic
February 21st, 2011
3:28 pm
why do teachers even need a union? they already have the DOE (which should be dissolved), and they have higher average wages than the avg american takes home
Mr_B
February 21st, 2011
3:29 pm
WI teachers have already conceded the economic cuts that Walker says he need to close the budget gap that he created last month with some of the tax cuts the the Tea partiers were crying for. The only thing that teachers are demanding is the right to bargain collectively, and to maintain their unions as they see fit, not the state. Ford and GM don’t get to dictate union proceedures to the UAW.
As far as private/ public salary comparisons: see what a Masters level degree will get you in $$$ in the private sector, versus what it’s worth in public education. A teacher in GA with a MA will make about 50 in most of the state, a little higher in Atlanta Metro.
Freedom Lover
February 21st, 2011
3:29 pm
Dan – Excellent comment. But there are even more considerations. Because the government has created monopolies for many services, there is no real “VALUE” placed on them as would be the case if there was a competitive market and direct payment for the services. It is not you or I who determine the wages of a teacher, but rather the political class. Yes, there are some market pressures, but truly when the government controls 80-90% of the educational services delivered, this market distortion flows through the process.
Currently it costs about $8500 per student to educate them in a GA government school. The average homeowner pays about $1500 total for school taxes no matter how many children get the service or even if none do. How can one place a “VALUE” on education when one doesn’t even come close to paying for the services one gets? Would everyone in america be willing to pay $80 a ticket to see a profession football game if they actually had to pay for their own child’s educational costs? If everyone had to really pay for what things actually cost, what would they place VALUE on? If you had to pay for your own child’s education might you demand that the teachers at the school get better pay and that other items be cut to save money? You certainly don’t have any say in the current system since you can’t even take your small amount of money and leave.
Dan is right. What someone gets paid is about a lot of things, but it is important to understand that neither the parents nor the children are the consumers of government education. As such, discussions about pay and value are inappropriate. Fix this relationship and one might likely discover teachers making far more than today and administrators making far less.
Mr_B
February 21st, 2011
3:31 pm
Logic: Teachers are more highly educated than most Americans and they work about 10 hour days on average. Would you want the job for what we get paid?
John
February 21st, 2011
3:33 pm
Even more amazing is that the teachers in the best private and Catholic schools make significantly less than public school teachers with equal experience and qualifications and have benefits that are far inferior. Students in those schools perform much better and you don’t find those teachers whining about low pay.
Business Owner
February 21st, 2011
3:34 pm
supportteachers
Here is a link to an actual breakdown of salaries for the 2011 fiscal year direct from budget services.http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/DMGetDocument.aspx/SASCH2011IALL-0ALL.pdf?p=6CC6799F8C1371F6F1F172A599DCDD5E60101F16EA10C6AD851E25F37B5370AB&Type=D
As you can see base pay is actually a little over $33,000 for a first year teacher with the very basic minumum certifications. Based on tenure and other certifications it goes up from there. Mind you this also doesn’t include benefits so if you add that in they would be very close the $40,000 mentioned. Not bad considering they get a few paid months off along with other holidays throughout… Many teachers such as my cousin get a part time job over the summer either tutoring, additional summerschool teaching (extra pay), or any number of other jobs that add an additional few thousand dollars to their annual pay. This on top of the grants they can get for additional education etc which in turn gets them a bump up the pay scale. She tried the corporate world and quickly went back to teaching because she made the same amount of money but had more vacation and less hours as a teacher.
retired early
February 21st, 2011
3:36 pm
Georgia is non union and state workers salaries are pathetic, because we are the last budget item to be considered each year…no ‘extra money’…no raise…year after year because we have no clout/union.
Once these GOP dominated state governments get their way as in Wi, it will just be a matter of time before the other states follow suit. Georgia now has 1/2 pension, 1/2 401K for new employees…that to will change to all 401K in the near future. Low salaries and no pension…do you want a job in state government. Be careful what you ask for…less government..as in less services…you got it. The ‘bottom feeders’ left in state government will be processing your tax returns, protecting you and your property, issuing licenses, etc. Better not get audited…fun times ahead for all.
Jeremy
February 21st, 2011
3:37 pm
Does anyone have any idea why superintendents make $200-300K? I say cut their pay by half.
Logic
February 21st, 2011
3:37 pm
Mr_B: To your first comment. The teachers will continue to have collective bargaining rights, but for wages only. And if Ford and GM could “dictate” union procedures, they would be on top as american cars would be far more affordable and prices not driven up due to unrealistic union pensions.
To your second comment: There are far more people who are just as educated and work the same if not more hours that earn less than teachers do.
real john
February 21st, 2011
3:41 pm
Listen, I come from many teachers in my family so I’m know that teaching is not easy.
HOWEVER, lets do some math here. The average teacher works about 190 days a year (180 day school schedule plus 10 teacher days or so).
The average private working (assuming 50 weeks time 5 working days) and two weeks vacation, work 250 days a year.
Net: Teachers work 60 less days a year.
Teachers in Georiga make approx. $50,000k a year. As Kyle mentioned, about 10k more than the average worker.
Net: Teachers make 10k more.
The average private worker saving 10% into 401(k) is $4000 a year or $333 a month.
The average worker for a family of four pays probably around $400-$500 a month in healthcare for another $4-5K a year in healthcare.
The public sector pays almost nothing for pension and healthcare.
Net: Private pays an extra 9-10K (conservatively) in retirement and healthcare cost.
Net: Public is netting another 10K a year in income.
So basically public sector is netting an extra 20K a year versus private sector while working two full months LESS.
Now do public sector employees see why private sector employees are tired of funding them??
James West
February 21st, 2011
3:46 pm
Let’s be clear on the facts.
Estimates for budget shortfall that Wisconsin faces for the rest of this fiscal year, the fiscal year ending on June 30, 2011, amounts to nearly $140 million. This amount is less than 1% of the state’s budget.
The tax cuts that Walker and the Republican legislature just passed in Wisconsin take effect in the next fiscal year, beginning July 1, 2011, and amount to approximately $140 million. This at a time when Wisconsin faces about a $3-$3.5 billion deficit spread over the same two fiscal years (about 12 percent of Wisconsin’s budget) that begin in July. So much for shared sacrifice.
There are many ways to close theses gaps. Wisconsin could eliminate special interest loopholes, enact more user fees, funds not yet spent could be recaptured, etcetera.
But after just passing corporate tax breaks, Walker vows to cut spending over the next couple of years with no tax increases. So, he has to go where the money is, mostly in state aid to local school districts and city and county governments.
But how’s this for local control? Walker also proposes to pass a legislation restricting local governments from raise property taxes to make up for the expected shortfalls arising out of Walker’s proposed cuts. So, while Walker claims to want to give local governments full control of their budgets, he is simultaneously seeking to take away reduce local governments’ control their budgets.
How’s that for irony?
retired early
February 21st, 2011
3:50 pm
Kyle
Teachers may not have a ‘union’, but they are ‘organized’. They have political clout. Georgia teachers are very well paid. Georgia state employees have no clout…now, please educate us…how do their salaries rate in the private versus public workers debate?
We need MORE unionS
February 21st, 2011
3:52 pm
I’ve looked over all the comments, including Kyle’s non-response – but no answer. We have no unions in the public sector in GA – why are we in still in debt?
Why do our students score near last on every standard test? What caused all our problems?
We’ve had absolute republican–rule in this state for at least 10 years; what seems to be the problem? Everything should be GREAT, right?
Dan
February 21st, 2011
3:56 pm
FL, Thanks i agree with much of your post, I just try to keep it simple a couple of things at a time. The other part of my post is the qualitative side. Again, that troublesome constant of supply and demand rears it’s head, not only are there many teachers that need to be paid, the demand is such that the talent pool is woefully diluted. As with any other profession, so many teachers are needed, that in order to fill the necessary postions education needs to reach much further down the ladder, making Mr. B’s comparison of a teaching masters to a business or technology masters laughable. Masters degrees in general have become diluted but depending on the discipline holders or advanced degrees, will be in the top 20% or so, like everything else, when everyone has one, AND it is one of the largest segments of the work force, (teachers are by far the most numerous degreed profession)the pass rate for teacher certification is in teh high 90’s the pass rate for CPA’s around 15. Just because teaching is noble and just because someone has a masters degree in it doesn’t mean they are good at it
Fletch
February 21st, 2011
3:57 pm
I must have missed the meeting around the time that I graduated from college where my peers were told that they MUST teach or else. I looked at teaching, and ran the numbers over the long term and decided to pursue Corporate and eventually self employment. And by the way, to the previous poster, 10 hours a day? Where do I sign up? a 10 hour day would be a short day for me and my partners.
WAW
February 21st, 2011
3:58 pm
Rafe – “either give in to their demands or they shut down government”
I didn’t realize there was such a thing as a Republican Union member. But according to you the House of Representatives is full of them. Roy Barnes met a few too.
Egypt, Iran and now Wisconsin “screw the little man” governments a causing a howl!
tipster
February 21st, 2011
3:59 pm
John@3:33. Ah, yes, the old private vs. public school argument. Sorry, but that is comparing apples to tables. Why don’t private schools have the discipline problem of public schools? Why, of course, the private school can just kick them out. Why do private students perform much better than public students? What performance are you refering to? Private schools aren’t required to take the standardized tests public schools do. Even if they did, I am not aware of those results ever being published. But even if they took the tests and published the results, why would they perform better than public school students (as I would expect them to)? Maybe, just perhaps, they get to hand pick their students? Nah, I’m sure they are just better at teaching, right?
Dan
February 21st, 2011
3:59 pm
When comparing salaries, lets not forget to add the retirement portion and just not speak of annual. Many public sector employees retire in their 50’s comfortably and get another job to buy the extras
Fletch
February 21st, 2011
4:02 pm
Dan – “When comparing salaries, lets not forget to add the retirement portion and just not speak of annual. Many public sector employees retire in their 50’s comfortably and get another job to buy the extras”
Agreed. I’d also like to point out, that unless you are chained to a desk or a rock 24/7 with an evil Taskmaster looking down, everyone on this board and in this country is free to pursue whatever vocation they feel will generate them maximum ROI!
James West
February 21st, 2011
4:04 pm
“In Wisconsin, when comparing the total compensation (which includes non-wage benefits such as health care and pensions) of workers with similar education, public-sector workers consistently make less than their private-sector peers.”
http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/wisconsin_public_servants_already_face_a_compensation_penalty/
tipster
February 21st, 2011
4:11 pm
Kyle@2:29 “supportteachers: In Georgia the average teacher makes at least $10,000 a year more than the average of all workers; the average police officer makes 95 percent of the average of all workers, the average firefighter 85 percent: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_ga.htm#25-0000”
Invalid comparison, Kyle. When you compare teachers salaries to all occupations, you are comparing to all jobs regardless of education levels needed for the job. In other words, you are comparing earning level of those with a minimum of a bachelor’s degree with parking lot attendants who make $19,780. What would be a more valid comparison would be occupations of the same education levels.
Trusslady
February 21st, 2011
4:18 pm
From a lot of the comments, I can only surmize that you are jealous that you do not have a union negotiating for you with a company whose management is making bonuses based on how much they denigrate your pay and benefits. So, in your jealousy, you figure if you can’t have it, then no one should. Yes, let’s all sink to the lowest levels possible. Corporate America thanks you for your ignorance.
Road Scholar
February 21st, 2011
4:35 pm
Oh, by the way, today is a furlough day for the teachers in Wisconsin. I wonder how the employers of the anti union bloggers feel about the productivity of their bloggers….er…workers today!?
retired early
February 21st, 2011
4:38 pm
Dan
Georgia state employees contribute 8% of their salary to their pension fund.
In 1982, in lieu of a large raise, the legislature picked up the employee part of their retirement contribution. This does not get recognized by the public…but nevertheless, it is our money being paid.
Not So Casual Observer
February 21st, 2011
4:41 pm
This disagreement centers not on pay but on unions and unions long ago outlived their reason to exist. The sweatshops of the 1920’s are gone in the US and the more highly educated and responsible citizens of 2011 will never allow them to return.
The unions have destroyed the American automobile industry with their greed and demands for higher and higher pay for workers in generally unskilled positions. I personally will never again purchase a GM or Chrysler product and that is no big deal you union supporters will argue. But there are more than just this one who feels the same way.
PRINCESS PELOSI DECLARED, “Elections have consequences” when arguing for the healthcare abomination. Now the Democrats do not like the consequences and are attempting contravene the process. What COWARDS!
The Daily Kos proudly claims there will be 35 or more of these demonstrations across the nation this week – all organized by the SEIU. I believe Wednesday at 4pm at the State Capitol is the time for the Atlanta riot (uh, meeting). Follow this link for the local commie convention in your area:
http://action.seiu.org/page/s/solidarityaction?source=kos
The view of the educated and righteous of a union as a bunch of thugs will not be diminished by these events or of those now occurring in Wisconsin.
joe
February 21st, 2011
4:42 pm
Seems to me, not as much about budget, but more of the Gov keeping his promise to the residents of WI who elected him, based on his pledges to nip taxpayer’s bankrolling the union’s benefits and pension. The Wi residents are tired of funding six figure salaries for union members who pay next to nothing for their benefits and pensions…it’s all on the taxpayer dime…or c-note in this case. They, the voters, said enough is enough and I agree with them 100%.
Dan
February 21st, 2011
4:43 pm
Retired early, thats good many private sector people do as well, not being contentious, just asking, what do you get for that 8%, is it in an IRA?, is it in a 401K, or is it going to fund a pre-set guaranteed amount as an example 75% of your last 5 years salary or something of that nature, or do you simply get back what you put it plus investment earnings
carlosgvv
February 21st, 2011
4:45 pm
“pushing elected officials to bend to their wishes”
Gov. Scott Walker is doing everything in his power to force State employees to bend to Republican wishes even though they are clearly demonstrating they have no intention of doing so. So, whose standing up for democracy is really ringing hollow?
John
February 21st, 2011
4:46 pm
Police and fire unions are exempt from this law for one reason…those unions supported and financially contributed to the Republicans in the last election.
Not So Casual Observer
February 21st, 2011
4:47 pm
Trusslady @ 4:18pm,
My family is from the Midwest where the people tend to take more responsibility for their success and well-being than those in the rust belt and the South.
So am I jealous? No, I simply look upon union members as those who are not self-starters, who are unable to face an employer on their own and are part of the nanny state looking for someone to take care of them – regardless of their level of education. In short, “Those who can – DO” and “those who can’t – become union members”.
Joe the Plutocrat
February 21st, 2011
4:48 pm
oh now, the plutocracy card… in all seriousness, I would not go so far as to say “teachers and burecrats” are plutocrats, but the unions which represent them most certainly are. to suggest the rank and file of any public sector union wears the plutocrat tag would be to suggest enlisted solider, sailors, airmen and Marines are part of the plutocracy as well. as I noted on JB’s blog, corruption is corruption, and it is the only truly bipartisan aspect of government from local thru state, thru federal levels. of course this is about the “budget” but the idea that Wisconsin’s problems are the result of, or will be resolved via AFSCME or the teachers’ union is more political than financial. GOP politicians “blaming” the public employee unions (save police and fire) is like blaming Bush for invading Afghanstan, but believing Obama’s AfPak “surge” will actually “end” the war. when a person is robbed at gunpoint, or raped, the ethnicity of the perp has no bearing on the crime or the punishment.
retired early
February 21st, 2011
4:50 pm
Dan
State pension for those hired after 1982 are 60% of average salary after 30 years service.
You can retire @ 60 years old and get approx 2% of salary for each year of service. You must have at least 10 years service to qualify.
Not So Casual Observer
February 21st, 2011
4:52 pm
Government pay, at all levels, should be cut 20% and the pension plans eliminated. Put them all into the Social Security system and that solves two problems with one sensible act.
Dan
February 21st, 2011
4:52 pm
See the thing you don’t get real american is, the tea party protests to keep the government from taking more of every citizens money, in WI a small segment of people are protesting for the government to continue to take more of other peoples money. The funny part is how inane the lefts argument is on this.
retired early
February 21st, 2011
4:54 pm
Dan
We have a deferred compensation plan…but the state does not provide matching funds.
BTW, new hires, those hired beginning in Jan 2009 have 1/2 pensions and 1/2 401K plans only.
real john
February 21st, 2011
4:56 pm
1,128,159 Wisconsin residents voted for Walker campaigning on this exact promise. This is far more than the protestors? What part of a Democratic society do the Democrats not understand??
Mr_B
February 21st, 2011
4:56 pm
Not So @4:42
The sweatshops, child labor, let the workers be damned safety concern of the 20’s don’t exist today because the unions took on management and won. Absent the vi\galance of the unions and others, they could be back in a heartbeat. Who’s beating the drum for open agricultural immigration now. It isn’t the unions.
Dan
February 21st, 2011
4:59 pm
Retired early, still not a bad deal, so your 8% is only partially funding that plan. Though I thought it might be a higher % after 30yrs
I suspect different jobs have different numbers. Don’t get me wrong is not jealousy as some say, my father was a NYC cop for 30 years and retired at approx 75% of last 5 yrs salary. So he traded many years of ekeing by (with 6 kids) for a comfortable retirement at the age of 56. not saying he doesn’t deserve it, just saying it’s not a bad gig if you can get it. I’ve worked 30yrs at 3 diff jobs and if I could retire now at 75% I would jump in a second, admittedly not sure about 60%, although the 60% number would be a fine place to start with other savings. Again its not all roses but far better than most, that is why people don’t like to hear the griping
Mr_B
February 21st, 2011
4:59 pm
Continued: Ford and GM ran themselves into the ground by building gas-guzzling poor quality vehicles that nobody wanted to buy. Those vehicles were not designed or marketed by the UAW. Those guys just put together whatever the brass says to make.
JF McNamara
February 21st, 2011
5:05 pm
Kyle wrote:
“JF: Teachers don’t have collective bargaining in Georgia and, as the stats I cited at 2:54 indicate, they seem to be doing OK compared to all other workers and compared to other teachers around the country.”
Are they doing that way because other teachers around the country have collective bargaining? What others get influences what you get. For instance, if the union at my company negotiates a benefit, management will automatically get it because they don’t want management to be disadvantaged. The benefits that people in States with CB affects what our teachers have because we can’t fall too far behind nationally in teacher performance and pay scale.
If there are no unions nationally, then that changes things completely. Now they have no platform to gain benefits, likely a lower benchmark, and are totally at the mercy of whatever government is in office. No one should be at the complete mercy of their boss without any options. They can’t really switch companies, so teachers don’t really have portability.
Its a bad deal to have no resource for power AND no portability.
Dan
February 21st, 2011
5:08 pm
That is a stretch and a half Mr B, first of all Ford is doing fine, although now they have to compete with government motors. But both built exactly what the market demanded although that is subjective, what is not subjective is they had to do it with 30-50% more labor cost then there foreign competitors. That is just a fact, and that makes it difficult to compete
Kyle Wingfield
February 21st, 2011
5:10 pm
Just a reminder, since it’s been a while, that all variations of “tea bag” wrt tea partyers are not allowed on ajc.com blogs. If you’ve had a post stuck in moderation or taken down, and you used one of those terms, that’s why.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Credible, Compelling, Complete....Bwahahahaha, just sayin...
February 21st, 2011
5:10 pm
Kyle- Just one slight correction, the Autoworkers is a government union now.
Remember?
James West
February 21st, 2011
5:10 pm
Joe@4:42: “Seems to me, not as much about budget, but more of the Gov keeping his promise to the residents of WI who elected him,…”
Minority Republicans and Tea Partiers didn’t seem to care much about allowing President Obama and Democratic majorities to keep the promises of the people who elected them. Killing the public option, cap-and-trade, the closing of Guantanamo, blocking them from passing a budget for the current fiscal year, among other things.
You can’t say that elections matter when you like the outcome in one instance, while also saying that elections don’t when you don’t like the outcome in another. Somebody might accuse you of hypocrisy.
That said, I’m glad that the Wisconsin 14 are extending the debate so that Walker can’t rush this legislation through in the dark of night, but at some point, Joe is right…elections should matter.
retired early
February 21st, 2011
5:10 pm
Dan
When combined with SS the 60% is comfortable. I have no complaints I just don’t plan on much “world travel”.
Law enforcement can retire @ 55 as you mentioned about your father. They all receive additional pensions from a separate “police officer’s fund”. That’s a good deal better than ours.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Credible, Compelling, Complete....Bwahahahaha, just sayin...
February 21st, 2011
5:28 pm
The fact that a president would use his own campaign foot soldiers to back public employees against their elected state government shows how distorted his priorities have become. Instead of confronting unions, as President Ronald Reagan did with the air traffic controllers in 1981 when he fired more than 11,000 of them, Obama is facilitating them.
And hence our real problem – no leadership.
We do have a class warfare klown, however.
Committee of Public Safety
February 21st, 2011
5:34 pm
Dan: See the thing you don’t get real american is, the tea party protests to keep the government from taking more of every citizens money, in WI a small segment of people are protesting for the government to continue to take more of other peoples money.
Wrong. The ’small segment’ represents a broad swatch of workers doing work that is essential to the daily life of the country, work that benefits the public as a whole.
Where do you get the idea that they are “taking other people’s money”? They do nothing of the sort. It’s part of a pact between the government and the public and it’s money that’s paid to support services that benefit all. .
Tweets that mention Wisconsin protests not about budget? In a way, yes | Kyle Wingfield -- Topsy.com
February 21st, 2011
6:26 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Cary D Conover, Founder Fire, Daniel Arlt, Daniel Arlt, caydance clearwater and others. caydance clearwater said: Wisconsin protests not about budget? In a way, yes: As James Sherk of the Heritage Foundation put it in a commen… http://bit.ly/fLscz8 [...]
Jim Fleischmann
February 21st, 2011
6:47 pm
People who speak of subverting democracy are generally missing the mark. Here in Wisconsin our civil service workers and teachers have mostly had union protection for over five decades. The governor and a boat load of assembly and senate candidates went on the campaign trail with valuable initiatives of cutting the budget and reducing the deficit (which we actually didn’t have one here in Wisconsin until the governor started agreeing to new tax cuts for small business, and other expenditures). NOT ONE of these individuals EVER spoke a word about eliminating the long-established unions or eliminating comprehensive bargaining powers. Yet now this has been the centerpiece for negotiations. Even though the unions are indicating they WILL agree to ALL of the budget cutting insurance and retirement plan items in the budget bill (never discussed with unions but slammed into the budget bill) the Senate and Governor are not satisfied – they have to eliminate bargaining capacity. Since the Republicans now hold the assembly, senate, and governor seat and all are banding together they aparently can make all these moves. I don’t see this as part of our “democracy” since the new legislators have moved well beyond what was ever claimed during the campaign. This IS NOT a democracy.
The agreements made and which will be agreed to are MAJOR and really amount to a reduction in the overall state employee pay/benefit package – these are real people who depend on the state package for an honest living. An example is my sister-in-law, a 30-year secretary with the state. She has been working part-time (30+ hours/wk). Her salary roughly $40,000 per year (this is very aproximate), her husband is a disabled roofer (a fall from a roof destroyed his back). So now she will lose anothe 12% of her pay. She just got back from a series of chemotherapy treatments for breast cancer and is in a tough spot for shopping for new jobs. Does she need union protection from this new administration – I think so – they are ruthless and just starting their efforts. My point – we can jaw philosophic all we want but real people are being affected. I am a manager/owner of a small business. I can see and empathise with real people like my sister-in-law.
Jim Fleischmann
supportteachers
February 21st, 2011
7:30 pm
@ Jim: Great point. This is not about private vs. public sector or union vs.non-union states. They are using these issues to try to divide and exploit the middle class. This is about taking from the poor and middle class to give tax cuts to big business and the rich who are funding their campaigns.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Credible, Compelling, Complete....Bwahahahaha, just sayin...
February 21st, 2011
8:02 pm
President Obama, with more time on his hands than you’d imagine, what with the Middle East popping rivets and the country lurching toward bankruptcy, has chosen to insert himself into the Wisconsin budget debate on the side of the local public employee unions.
Leaderless, just sayin…
GDRLA
February 21st, 2011
8:26 pm
As a State of GA employee I do not belong to a union. However, the state of GA vested me in my retirement plan after 10 years of service – if GA wants to change my CONTRACT then they should negotiate with me & my peers. I did my part (contrary to popular belief some Government employees do work) and part of that was to work for less pay BUT with better benefits and a retirement plan. AFTER the pension is vested is NOT the time to be changing it without an intense discussion involving ME! (& I do support that sometimes benefits are overly generous but that’s not my fault, it’s the fault of prior political processes that gave away the golden egg, goose, and all).
I heared he was an Ayrab
February 21st, 2011
8:30 pm
Rank bollocks as usual from Kyle Wankfield. Teachers don’t make that much compared to others.
While the attention is focused on the standoff, Governor Wanker is trying a sneak attack by pushing a bill that actually allows the governor to sell state-owned power plants in Wisconsin on a no-bid basis to any buyer and without regulatory scrutiny. The governor gets to decide. Even Ghaddafi wouldn’t attempt to do this!!
Dan
February 21st, 2011
8:32 pm
Committee of Public Safety, wrong the whole problem is much of that work arguably most of that work is not essential therein lies the problem, and yes they are in fact taking that money, not for essential needs but for politically expedient ends. What I find so baffling is that when selfishness and greed, normal human foibles, are perpetuated by politicians and unions who claim to be serving a greater good, they are given a pass, yet when business, who readily admit to wanting to make money do it they are portrayed as evil, not sure if it is naivete or ignorance. The fact is government accounting policies in general, make Madoff look like a kid running a lemonade stand with artificle lemon flavor
marty
February 21st, 2011
9:13 pm
Five states have made collective bargaining by educators illegal. Their rank in ACT/SAT scores:
South Carolina 50th
North Carolina 49th
Georgia 48th
Texas 47th
Virginia 44th
Wisconsin (on the other hand) 2nd
Maybe they don’t want to join the race to the bottom. Any comment Kyle?
Wiscons
Committee of Public Safety
February 21st, 2011
10:34 pm
Dan: “What I find so baffling is that when selfishness and greed, normal human foibles, are perpetuated by politicians and unions who claim to be serving a greater good, they are given a pass, yet when business, who readily admit to wanting to make money do it they are portrayed as evil, not sure if it is naivete or ignorance”
There’s only one form of greed in the country today and it is represented by the financier class.
Dan, do you have any inkling just how much money the top hedge fund managers earn each year? Could you venture a guess? Try one billions – that’s with a b – dollars a year. I don’t know if you’re good with figures but do you have any idea how much money that is? Does it offend you a little, Dan? Maybe just a teeny bit? No?
Let me break it down like this: these mega-earners (assuming ‘earn’ is even the right word) take advantage of tax loopholes, fiercely protected by Republicans, which allow them to define this as capitals gains, which are taxed at 15%. Now if they were to be taxed at the ‘normal’ rate – meaning a rate that’s similar to what you or I pay – that alone would generate enough revenue to pay salary and benefits for 300,000 teachers. That get your blood going, Dan? Maybe just a little. Oh I bet if you let yourself stop and think for just a minute, putting aside all your talking points Rush and Rupert Murdoch have instilled in you, you’ll have to admit that that gives you a little shudder somewhere deep down inside. Am I right, Dan? Are you human? I bet if you’re really honest with yourself, you’ll admit it to yourself and you’ll see that this is a sham and a fraud. And more importantly than that – it can’t go on. Things won’t go as far here as Egypt or the Bastille in 1789. It will be different here. But this will eventually get stopped – one way or another.
get out much?
February 21st, 2011
10:54 pm
Well for those of you who like to keep bringing up the private sector, don’t be surprised that the best and the brightest teachers start leaving. Just like they would in the private sector if you cut their salary benefits. I don’t know of anyone who went into teaching for the money but I know a lot who left teaching because of the money.
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2011
10:58 pm
Marty,
Nice try. The southern states of course are going to be much lower in sat scores than a state like Wisconsin due simply to demographics and not necessarily the teacher pay. If what you were saying had anything to do with teacher pay then the nation as a whole would be doing better since we are spending more money on education adjusted for inflation than we ever have.
Georgia is a high minority state and hence substantially lower SAT scores. Also, take a look at Wisconsin. Very low minority population and look who settled the state? A lot of Germans and culturally these people have always placed a high value on education- you have to look further than the pure numbers.
And no. Its not racist to say that a state’s SAT scores are going to be brought down a great deal by minority populations. Its not a secret. Its just a fact of life that minorities, African Americans in particular, score much lower in standardized testing.
Thulsa Doom
February 21st, 2011
11:01 pm
get out much,
My sister is a teacher. And she knows of some mighty incompetent teachers that are there because they lack the competence to do anything else. As the old saying goes those who can can. Those who can’t teach.
Committee of Public Safety
February 21st, 2011
11:44 pm
Thulsa Doom: “Also, take a look at Wisconsin. Very low minority population and look who settled the state? A lot of Germans and culturally these people have always placed a high value on education- you have to look further than the pure numbers.”
Germans also place a high value on social solidarity and unions. Coincidence?
true public service employee
February 21st, 2011
11:52 pm
“Public service employee’s treated like dogs???” Try waitressing for $2.33 an hour with NO benefits! I am sick, to hear that these “public service employee’s” think they have it so hard. It makes me want wonder where their true intent lies. What about the children standing on the side of the road, in the middle of winter, waiting for a bus that never came? Who’s really selfish??? Or the parents that had to call into work, to stay home with their unschooling children? Or the people who had to work harder to compensate for their missing co-workers absense???
Chris
February 22nd, 2011
12:54 am
I have two daughters…both elementary school teachers. One works in Illinois, is in a union and makes about 55,000 a year . She has a masters degree and has worked in the field about 10 years. She is very good at her job, with her students scoring well on national tests.
The other works in S Carolina, no union, and makes about 28,000 a year, She has Masters degree and has worked in the field for 8 years. She too is good at her job, but needs to work as a bartender on weekends during the school year to make ends meet. By the way she makes more per hour as a bartender then as a teacher. You can see where the states priority is.
ND
February 22nd, 2011
2:22 am
I am not some super smart economic theorist, so I will not bore anyone with some half baked analysis of whether or not teachers unions are necessary. I can speak about my own experiences, though. I used to work as a substitute teacher and loved it, and the ONLY reason I did not become a full time teacher is because the pay was too low. I don’t know what teachers get paid in Wisconsin, but I can’t imagine they get paid a whole lot more than what they get paid here in Georgia. So the idea of teachers being “plutocrats” rings a little hollow to me.
Chris Matthews
February 22nd, 2011
6:45 am
There should be no government-unions nor baseball and football! These people are no better than the taxpayers in this country whose backs they ride! No one is making you be anything. You are making choices and the taxpayers must do the same. Crybabies…….!!!!!
Light on Policy
February 22nd, 2011
6:58 am
Kyle this is a very feeble attempt to label these civil union employees as plutocrats when they make approx 25% less than their private counterparts.
Since we are talking numbers and patriotic duty, 2/3s of the corporations in Wisconsin pay no income taxes and state revenue from corporations has declined by 50% since 1981. Dare we ask that they be a part of the budget solution?
lynnie gal
February 22nd, 2011
7:53 am
Pitting middle class workers against each other, and demonizing them as the cause for economic suffering is what republicans do best. Kuddos! It’s the same strategy slave owners used to keep the slaves in line…pit them against each other so they will come to depend more the slave owner. That’s what’s happening in Wisconsin, TN, Ohio–wherever republicans rule the legislature. They divert attention from the Bankers, Wall Street Traders, Hedge Fund Managers–the rich who depended on taxpayer bailouts to keep their jobs, then are raking in billions in bonuses. These guys fund the republicans and many democrats, as well as the tea party. Turn them against each other so they won’t pay attention to what the other side is doing. It’s an old method, used to create an Oligarchy.
Stephanie
February 22nd, 2011
8:03 am
Has anyone explained yet that teachers are not allowed to strike in Wisconsin? It is illegal. Teachers cannot form a picket line. Also, this issue is not about teachers. It is about street workers, bus drivers, janitors, cafeteria workers, classroom aides, child care providers, civil employees, state department employees, safety officers, and corrections officials. Wisconsin Senate Bill 11 will impact all unions of all state employees. You are right in thinking this isn’t just about who pays what to whom. You’re also right in thinking that in a perfect world, unions shouldn’t exist. The last time I checked, however, this isn’t a perfect world.
metoo
February 22nd, 2011
8:09 am
Wall Street bankrupts the country and the little people pay for it.
Fix-It
February 22nd, 2011
8:28 am
Kyle, Stop confusing them with facts, that is downright racist of you, you birther…
Fix-It
February 22nd, 2011
8:58 am
lynnie gal,
“Pitting middle class workers against each other, and demonizing them as the cause for economic suffering is what republicans do best”
Are you on drugs, I did not think we had medical marijuana in Georgia?
Even private sector unions pay into their retirement and medical and so does EVERYBODY ELSE, why should I fund the retirement of a union person? By the way we are have some hard times here in the US or did you forget lynnie? Why did the unions’ get a raise and the rest of us get pay cuts or get laid off?
“They divert attention from the Bankers, Wall Street Traders, Hedge Fund Managers–the rich who depended on taxpayer bailouts to keep their jobs, then are raking in billions in bonuses”
The GOP does not need to divert attention from all these institutions, wasn’t it the Obozo administration that gave the bonuses to the rich and padded their salaries? Obozo gave 47 billion dollars of tax monies to the unions that they DO NOT have to repay, why? Why am I paying for some one else’s retirement?
Committee of Public Safety
February 22nd, 2011
9:14 am
Fix-it: Why did the unions’ get a raise and the rest of us get pay cuts or get laid off?
If you’ll use your scroll bar and look at my post from last night you’ll see that I already addressed this lie you’re repeating that “we’re having hard times”. We don’t have a budget crisis, we have an ideological class war being waged by the super-wealthy on everybody else and enabled by the Republican party (and even parts of the Democratic party).
Let me repeat. The top 13 hedge fund managers posted yearly earnings of $1 billion. That’s not a typo. That’s billion with a b. If we were to simply reform our capital gains tax loopholes which allows these earnings to be taxed at a rate of 15% and which Republicans fiercely protect, that alone would generate enough revenue to pay salaries and benefits for 300,000 teachers. Did you catch that, Fix-It? That’s three-hundred thousand with a t.
Now I don’t know about where you’re from, Fix-It, but in my world that’s just a bit outrageous. Don’t you agree, Fix-It, if you really let yourself think about it for just a second? C’mon, be honest.
John Ellison
February 22nd, 2011
9:17 am
It’s time for the government to get out of the education business. They charge twice as much and produce a lesser quality product as private business.
Committee of Public Safety
February 22nd, 2011
9:24 am
John Ellison: “It’s time for the government to get out of the education business. They charge twice as much and produce a lesser quality product as private business.”
Oh B-S. Save us the claptrap about education as a ‘business’. Where’d you learn your political lexicon?
Education is a necessity of civilization: way too important to be left to mere profiteers. Education is not Fruit Loops.
Holytape
February 22nd, 2011
9:25 am
Kyle Wingfield,
As a public employee, I need a union to protect me from people such as yourself. You receive the services you pay for through your tax dollars. If fact, you pay less than the cost and the value for these services. My take home pay is less that 80% of what an equivalent private sector job pays. I make up for some of it with the benefits. You claim that we are making too much and that we have too much influence, however from your article it is clear that you don’t have a clue of what state workers do nor do you have a clue about the benefits that you received.
Government employees are not just tax sinks. They produce service that you consume and benefit from directly. You know that hamburger you probably ate within the last week or so. Do you know why it isn’t filled with rat feces? Government employees on the state and federal level inspect the producers of that food. State and local officials inspect the restaurants that prepared the hamburger. So while none of this employees actually produced a profit, they all helped you from getting explosive diarrhea, and well possibly dying from a major E. coli infection. If you don’t thin that is true that look at the historic records about food safety. Food poisoning was actually a fairly high factor in population morality. What do you think society would look like without public education? Even if you never had or never will have children in the system, you gain a dramatic benefit from having a higher trained overall work force and having a much lower crime rate. There are just a couple of the hundreds ways that public employees save you money. So to say that public employees are less valuable than private employees because we do not make a profit in the literal sense, is absurd and quiet frankly shows a lack of vision.
You complain that teachers are making more that the average worker. Well, their job has higher requirements more than the average worker. Do you complain that doctors at state run hospitals make more than the average worker? Teachers are not only required to know their subject, but they have to act like social workers as well. Does the average worker you mentioned have to have at least a four year degree to enter his or her field? Compare a teacher to an engineer. The both require about the same amount of training, and in my opinion they have about the same, though in a complete different context, leves of responsibility.
So making $50,000 a year after having a BS and mostly likely having a MS as well, makes you a “ruling class?” Teachers in Wisconsin make 25,000 a year to begin with, and you are saying that they are not the average American? Do you think teachers are driving around in there Bentleys smoking cuban cigars and drink fine French wine out of diamond encrusted goblets? Lat time I checked, I have never heard anyone say, “I’m going to be rich. I’m a public school teacher.”
(I noticed there is the mistaken belief that the Wisconsin would still allow public employees to bargain for pay increases. They could, but they could only match the CPI for that year (which is always trails true inflation.) So if they they don’t get the raise one year, they can’t ask for a raise that takes into the accumulative inflation for the two years. Thus, they have to bargain aggressively every year to stay even. If they do manage to negotiate a raise higher than the CPI from the state bargaining table, that raise would have to go in front of the entire state for approval. )
Rockerbabe
February 22nd, 2011
10:50 am
Companies get the union they deserve and most Americans know this. When employees are not paid well, benefits are stingy, promotions and recognition for good work are not acknowledged and rewarded and the work environment is toxic, employees need a voice against bad management practices.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/02/21-6
jm
February 22nd, 2011
1:40 pm
Well said Kyle. Power to the people, not the unions!