The real fallout from WikiLeaks
The release of hundreds of thousands of State Department documents by WikiLeaks, many of which were reported this weekend by the New York Times and other newspapers around the world, is a humiliation for the United States. But it need not be a catastrophe.
While the leaked documents reveal some highly undiplomatic lip-flapping on the part of U.S. emissaries, I don’t think it will harm our relations with other nations as much as some people fear, for two reasons. First, other nations’ leaders will probably see this as a there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I moment; their diplomatic corps most likely make assessments of one another — including ours — that are at least as frank as the ones now being aired publicly. (Although they will surely instruct their ambassadors and staff not to put such thoughts in electronic documents — something one would have hoped had been common practice before now for our own State Department.)
The second reason, related to the first, is that there was no apparent reason for the leaks besides our sheer humiliation, and no reason for our allies, at least, to believe they will remain immune from similar treatment in the future. As our State Department and the Obama administration work to limit the damage from the leaks, this is a point they will probably try to make.
There will of course be some bitterness among some parties. But as heads and tempers cool, I suspect the real perceived enemy here will not be us but the founder of WikiLeaks, Julian Assange.
Assange has been described as a neo-anarchist and an enemy of the United States, and both are true on the evidence. His false moral crusade is not an effort to replace American might with something else, just to tear it down. In a just world, it is Assange, not Rupert Murdoch or Ted Turner, who would provide inspiration for a James Bond villain.
Those who tut-tut approvingly about a “democracy [that] purports to be ‘world policeman’ “ being brought down a peg ignore the fact that we have fallen into this role in large part due to the abdication by numerous other Western nations of their own security responsibilities. If our capacity is weakened, the result will be a vacuum of responsibility, not a shift. That is well understood in other capitals, which is another reason I suspect the fallout from this episode will be more muted than one might expect.
That’s not to say there shouldn’t be consequences.
The leak itself is the embarrassment here, and the Obama administration should re-double, re-triple, re-quadruple its efforts to tighten up this obviously gaping hole in our national security. Some people, including Assange himself, seem intent on casting this as being particularly embarrassing and hypocritical for President Obama, who promised “smart power” and a return to respect for America abroad. To be sure, it isn’t very smart to produce and store hackable documents with such unflattering commentary, but neither that practice nor our apparent electronic vulnerability began Jan. 20, 2009 — or Jan. 20, 2001, for that matter.
Along those lines, one useful result of Assange’s idiocy is that it shoots a very large hole through the notion, popular on the left here and abroad, that anti-Americanism was novel or exclusive to the Bush era. People who hate America hate us no matter who the president is. To think otherwise is naive or willfully ignorant.
Beyond that, the leaker(s) of these documents — an American soldier, Bradley Manning, is again suspected as the source — should be prosecuted for treason and, if found guilty, executed. Assange and his cohorts should be charged as co-conspirators, and our allies urged in the strongest way possible to cooperate with their arrest. They, too, should face the most severe punishments that our justice system affords for their crimes.
See, that’s the problem for these dirtbags’ efforts to expose the U.S. government as a bunch of hypocrites. What now is Washington’s motivation for not proving them right — by pursuing them mercilessly until the end?
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91 comments Add your comment
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 29th, 2010
12:31 pm
Well-argued, I agree 98% with the thesis here. I understand (without verification) that the raw documents released to the media include names and/or highly descriptive information about people cooperating with the US, thus putting their lives at risk. I generally think disclosure of undiplomatic-diplospeech is no big deal, as argued by Kyle; however the reckless divulging of names-of-interest to the thugocrats around the world will get people killed (or more likely will merely “disappear”). The divulgers should be held strictly accountable for such foreseeable deaths if they occur.
Kyle Wingfield
November 29th, 2010
12:35 pm
Ragnar: If those names are released, I agree. Certainly, they already exposed a number of U.S. informants in Afghanistan to real danger in a past leak.
Add that to the list of charges these goons should face.
Del
November 29th, 2010
12:42 pm
I’ve read reports that Manning was openly homosexual and a break up with his boyfriend sent him over the top. Reports also described him as vocally critical of U.S. foreign policy and the treatment of gay’s in the military. If these reports are accurate you would have to wonder how this individual was allowed such unfettered access to classified information.
Jimmy62
November 29th, 2010
12:58 pm
I’m betting the only people that really have problems with this will be politicians. They are the ones getting exposed. It’s not about protecting national secrets, it’s about protecting their own careers, and that’s something I don’t care about. If these documents show politicians behaving badly, then I am happy to see them exposed, and want to see even more!
JF McNamara
November 29th, 2010
1:00 pm
You can’t monitor every employees in the federal government constantly, but you can get out the hangin’ rope when one commits treason. It’s about that time.
George
November 29th, 2010
1:07 pm
Seriously?
“Assange has been described as a neo-anarchist and an enemy of the United States, and both are true on the evidence. His false moral crusade is not an effort to replace American might with something else, just to tear it down. In a just world, it is Assange, not Rupert Murdoch or Ted Turner, who would provide inspiration for a James Bond villain.”
Way to be a journalist. In a just world, journalists question government and corporate power. All you are doing is helping to vilify an organization willing to put themselves on the line to increase transparency in government.
If you did any research whatsoever you would know that Wikileaks has, historically, released many documents on other nations, only recently have they released US documents because they have them now. Go do some research, or quit your day job.
Kyle Wingfield
November 29th, 2010
1:11 pm
George: Of course journalists “question government and corporate power.” But they don’t steal documents to do it. And I don’t consider Assange a journalist.
Intown
November 29th, 2010
1:23 pm
I agree that they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I’m all for free speech but, this is a crime … plain and simple.
Jefferson
November 29th, 2010
1:23 pm
This sounds a lot like the way the GOP operates…
@@
November 29th, 2010
1:24 pm
According to the leaked cables, Putin is the alpha dog…True.
Supreme Leader Khamenei is terminally ill and could die in a few months, claims Iranian source in leaked U.S. diplomatic cable.
Could die in a few months? If true, the Ayatollah should’ve been dead back in 2009, so we can assume that claim was false.
It would be hard to convict Assange or Manning of treason when our own congress critters have escaped the charge(s) for decades….Kennedy….Rockefeller, to name but a few.
carlosgvv
November 29th, 2010
1:31 pm
I will venture to say we are probably the only Country in the world that would allow a PFC to have access to this much classified information. I wonder how long low ranking privates have had this kind of access and exactly whose idea this was? Some one has shown a dangerous level of incompetence here.
Double Standard
November 29th, 2010
1:31 pm
What about the entire American spy network sold to the soviets by Israel in the 1980’s, I hear no condemnation of Israel for that action? Remember Johnathan Pollard, the Jewish analyst at DOD, who stole the names of ALL our soviets spies, and sold that information to Israel? Israel then turned around and sold the names of OUR spies to the Soviets in exchange for a few Jews to immigrate to Israel. Pollard and Israel have both been covering their tracks in this case for near on 20 years now, but every President since Reagan has refused to allow Pollard to be released. On another note, only a fool would allow random Army privates access to our highest secrets, and apparently OUR Washington fools qualify. I think I know why we have NO human intelligence assets left in the world, because people cannot trust Washington not to betray them.
jconservative
November 29th, 2010
1:35 pm
A lot of government employees need to learn a lesson from the private sector – never put anything in an e-mail you would mind seeing published in the local paper. It appears a lot of these writers are in love with the reflection in the mirror.
Question: what kind of system would allow an employee to download millions of pages without someone in security being notified? Defense, and probably State, need to go back to the drawing board on system security.
CJ
November 29th, 2010
1:49 pm
“Along those lines, one useful result of Assange’s idiocy is that it shoots a very large hole through the notion, popular on the left here and abroad, that anti-Americanism was novel or exclusive to the Bush era. People who hate America hate us no matter who the president is. To think otherwise is naive or willfully ignorant.”
I’m not clear on how the attitudes of one individual’s or a small group of individuals’ anti-Americanism “blows a hole through the notion…that anti-Americanism was novel or exclusive to the Bush.” In fact, polls have consistently demonstrated that this notion is relatively accurate: http://bit.ly/b7OdBH To think otherwise is naive or willfully ignorant.
With regard to the leaks, we should remember that whistle blowers can and have revealed secrets about crimes, abuses, and corruption–revelations that have exposed wrongdoing and held officials accountable. However, the leakers in this case seem to be doing so entirely out of spite and pettiness. I agree that they should be prosecuted for something.
But executed? That’s insane. Bigger fish have gotten away with worse (for example, just recently, Eric Cantor deliberately, and possibly illegally, sought to undermine our foreign policy with Israel and, as I recall, George Bush authorized torture.).
Thurston B. Howell III
November 29th, 2010
2:00 pm
Ahhh Magoo….you’ve done it again.
Kyle Wingfield
November 29th, 2010
2:08 pm
CJ, I think you fail to draw a distinction between popularity/favorability, which can change as policies change, and anti-Americanism, which is simple hatred for our country. I think the latter is closer to the views of the likes of Assange — and al Qaeda.
Also, these leaks have not been about revealing crimes, abuses or corruption; this is not a whistleblower case. The Army private who abused his classified status to commit the crime of stealing this information and leaking it has committed treason.
on patroll
November 29th, 2010
2:30 pm
will venture to say we are probably the only Country in the world that would allow a PFC to have access to this much classified information
Wouldn’t you think that just maybe he’s a scapegoat? He got busted and now there are even more docs. and now you have people wondering how he got access to these docs? the simple answer is he didn’t. he may have leaked docs he did have access to but there is more than just him.
Peter de
November 29th, 2010
2:37 pm
Buffoonery are at all levels of Federal Government from the top on down.
The Wikileaks scandal exposes the level of idiocy at the top of the government food chain. These so called leaders have finally stuck their head in a hole. The hole they chose smells like they should qualify for contortionists at Cirque D Soleil.
I can not remember a time in my life where so many different issues, on a national and global level have exposed the inept and total breakdown of integrity. Where the lack of qualified leadership continues to haunt us, unable to set a definitive course to correct even the most basic problems that plague our nation.
The rationale displayed by our current administration has placed many of us who have stood by on the sidelines in a state of bewilderment and disgrace. This administration thinks our animosity is based solely on the economy, but everyday we are waking up to more of what is now becoming an almost daily occurrance of ineptitude on full display for all the world to see such as the wikileaks.
I’m ashamed for you, I’m ashamed for me, and I am ashamed for anyone who cares about how far we have fallen.
One additional note here. If you agree with the attitude of the main stream media who prefer to trivialize these almost daily events by downplaying them as a minor hiccup in the digestive system of the world you need only to look at all these issues as a collective and realize the cancer has been growing for a long long time, is in part based on the naivity of people whose distinctions would merely write this off as just another minor embarrassment.
Double Standard
November 29th, 2010
2:50 pm
To the Feds, the greatest crime that can be committed is to cause the Feds embarrassment! I luv watching Washington squirm like a bug on a hot plate! Make no mistake about it, the Washington clowns are just as big in the war crimes department as any other country. Who used napalm on primitive people living in straw huts? Washington did! Who carpet bombed a third world country? Washington did! Who uses 50 million dollar attack aircraft to launch smart bombs on civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan (and Yemen too)? Washington does! Save your sympathy for someone who deserves it, not for the Washington clowns.
JF McNamara
November 29th, 2010
2:53 pm
Peter de,
Back away from the propaganda machine. Its not that bad. You’d think we had 90% unemployment, anarchy in every city in America, and countries about to invade us over wiki leaks.
Despite our shortcomings, people are still walking through deserts with no water, faking passports, and having doorstop babies just to get here. Maybe I’m naive, but this isn’t even in my top 10 concerns…and it’ll be forgotten in a week.
DebbieDoRight
November 29th, 2010
2:55 pm
The guy who leaked the documents need to spend some time, (life), at Leavenworth sure. But what he did is not legally classified as “treason”. But he and the Wiki people are considered enemies of the state. If I were them, I’d fear for my life. The US, although known for our generosity, is also known for our long memories and our hatred of “tattlers”. Maybe he shouldn’t start his car for a couple of years and/or start taking the bus from now on………… just in case.
Double Standard
November 29th, 2010
2:57 pm
Ragnar Danneskjöld – The Washington clowns should be held responsible, not a person who has no legal obligation to maintain OUR secrets. Mr Assange is not an American citizen, he has not signed the National Secrets documents that the Washington clowns have signed, and he is not subject to our laws. Mr Assange has done us a service in revealing the gaping hole in our National Security system, a hole that our real enemies could exploit without us ever knowing. See my above post about a low level DOD employee who managed to gain access to our entire spy network in the former Soviet Union. Washington is the problem, not Wikileaks.
Peter de
November 29th, 2010
3:05 pm
JF McNamara, so you too would trivilize this as just another little blunder by the clowns in Washington. I think you missed the point, but you made mine. Go ahead and forget it in a week along with all the other missteps made and forgotten along the way. One morning you’ll wake up and realize that maybe you should have paid more attention to the actions of Washington, than whatever makes up that top 10 list of concerns you have. Now that would make for some interesting reading.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 29th, 2010
3:07 pm
never put anything in an e-mail you would mind seeing published in the local paper
One would think common sense would tell people that but evidently, it doesn’t, in many cases.
Mr Assange is not an American citizen, he has not signed the National Secrets documents that the Washington clowns have signed, and he is not subject to our laws.
True but he can be tried as a spy.
Kyle Wingfield
November 29th, 2010
3:08 pm
Debbie: From Article 3, Section 3, of the Constitution:
“Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.”
I’d call this Aid and Comfort.
George
November 29th, 2010
3:27 pm
Kyle, I wasn’t saying Assange was a journalist. I was saying that if you consider yourself one, you are mistaken. I don’t understand why you people focus on Assange, he didn’t leak these documents, Bradley Manning probably did. Wikileaks is making them available, Assange is merely the figurehead.
Assange and wikileaks didn’t steal anything.
If you were a true journalist you would examine the documents instead of attacking the messenger.
Read true journalism at work: http://www.politics.co.uk/comment/culture-media-and-sport/comment-the-hypocrisy-of-the-media-attack-on-wikileaks-$21385948.htm
“The hypocrisy of the media attack on Wikileaks: The traditional media has become so toothless it is reduced to attacking Wikileaks for doing its job properly.”
John
November 29th, 2010
3:50 pm
Kyle:
George: Of course journalists “question government and corporate power.” But they don’t steal documents to do it. And I don’t consider Assange a journalist.
Wrong again. Journalists use leaked documents and information all the time. Nice rhetorical switcharoo there. Whether or not you consider Assange a journalist is irrelevant, the point is he’s doing the job people like you should be.
Please quit your day job.
John
November 29th, 2010
3:53 pm
Kyle:
“Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.” I’d call this Aid and Comfort.
Some people would also call building a mosque in the United States “aid and comfort” to “the enemy.” What are your criteria for aid and comfort? Unless your logic is a little more rigorous (which it isn’t) this is not a good argument.
Jefferson
November 29th, 2010
4:15 pm
So who are our enemies ?
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 29th, 2010
4:17 pm
Dear Double @ 2:57, one need not be an American to be responsible for deaths of either Americans or of friends of America. I would not honor the technicality of non-citizenship as a reason to not aim a Predator drone at people such as Assange, those who recklessly aid and abet murder of innocents. Indeed, is that not the theory behind our Predators?
carlosgvv
November 29th, 2010
4:17 pm
on patroll
Excellent point. Our military has a sorry habit of dumping on enlisted personnel while letting guilty officers go scott free. This is not unlike what happens in big corporations, I might add. It will be interesting to see if any of the brass are shown to be involved in this.
Double Standard
November 29th, 2010
4:19 pm
Its not the system in Washington, its the people. Democracy works only as long as we do not have an entrenched Congress and bureaucracy. We need to rotate the civil servants out of Washington, not let them dig in to the point where they think THEY are the government. I am not ruled by Washington, and I resent them thinking I owe them more than passing support for maintaining the union, and nothing toward implementing their pet policies. The system has been corrupted by the very people trusted to run it. We need term limits for Congress, one and done is my motto. We need rotation out of Washington for ALL civil servants, no more than five years in Washington, then out you go. We need a choker chain on lobbyist, especially those who lobby for a foreign power, even if they have domestic financial support. Put one inch spikes on that choker chain!
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 29th, 2010
4:22 pm
Dear John @ 3:53, I think Kyle’s pretty solid on the law on this one. Jury question, or an issuer for the trier of fact – one could reasonably find that stealing and divulging secret information is treason when it leads to death of American agents during wartime, and it need not be a declared war. Just ask the Rosenbergs.
Kyle Wingfield
November 29th, 2010
4:23 pm
Well, let’s see, John. We are at war with al Qaeda; we’ve now breached the confidence of a national leader (Yemen’s President Saleh) who was cooperating with us in fighting Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. So there’s one. We are trying to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons; we’ve now breached the confidence of the leaders of other Middle East nations and had exposed our knowledge of Iran’s connections with North Korea, in a business where knowing what the other guy knows can be crucial.
You may consider this knowledge to be on par with, say, full transparency about a government contract. I don’t.
get out much?
November 29th, 2010
4:24 pm
What seems to be getting lost in this wikileaks tempest in a teapot is the government’s overuse and abuse of the classification stamp. I wonder how many things are marked “classified” just to prevent embarrassment or accountability.
Double Standard
November 29th, 2010
4:25 pm
The theory behind the predators is cowardice by the Washington clowns to put real pilots in harms way. You are under the false impression that washington is always right, and you could not be more wrong. It is illegal for the American government to target individuals for murder. Mr Assange is no different than the Washington Post or the New York Times, both of whom actually published the documents before Mr Assange, mostly because of the denial of service attacks on Assange’s computers. Both the WaPo and the nyt will argue that they intended to publish just after Mr Assange, not first, but the fact is they were first, and they therefore revealed our National Secrets to the public. Are you proposing the Predator solution to the WaPo and NYT?
George
November 29th, 2010
4:28 pm
Kyle, you’re an idiot. On one hand you say the government is bad and they should be stopped, and on the other, you are protecting everything they do that you agree with. You are cherry picking, you are not a journalist, you are just some guy who thinks he knows things, and it’s a sad state of the world when you are able to get your voice heard by so many.
Go read about what real journalists do, they question, they don’t cow tow to their government.
A Patriot
November 29th, 2010
4:30 pm
Execute the messenger?
The truth hurts.
JDW
November 29th, 2010
4:31 pm
Kyle wrote:
“Beyond that, the leaker(s) of these documents — an American soldier, Bradley Manning, is again suspected as the source — should be prosecuted for treason and, if found guilty, executed. Assange and his cohorts should be charged as co-conspirators, and our allies urged in the strongest way possible to cooperate with their arrest. They, too, should face the most severe punishments that our justice system affords for their crimes.”
Kyle, for once, we are in complete agreement.
A Patriot
November 29th, 2010
4:34 pm
We don’t need to know about this either………………I guess. From LR—————-
“Janet Napolitano has issued a decree—so it is written, so it shall be done—barring all packages mailed from Japan that weigh more than .9 pounds, are not sent by a commercial enterprise, and do not have the receiver’s SS# written on the package. Mike Rogers says this is big news in the Japanese press. He sends along an English language article he found…It follows……………….
“Japan Post Service Company (Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo-to, Representative Director: Shinichi Nabekura) has announced that, due to the elimination of air flights for the delivery of postal items over 453 grams (16 ounces) in weight following the recent anti-terrorism airport security enforcement on the part of the USA, these postal items will be suspended for shipment for the time being starting from November 17, 2010.
We will make a relevant announcement once the situation changes.”
Disgusted
November 29th, 2010
4:34 pm
I will venture to say we are probably the only Country in the world that would allow a PFC to have access to this much classified information. I wonder how long low ranking privates have had this kind of access and exactly whose idea this was? Some one has shown a dangerous level of incompetence here.
Agreed, for the most part. Back in my service days, I knew a Marine who was denied a Top Secret clearance for the sole reason that he inadvertently bounced a check, which he made good immediately—no criminal background, no arrests, no other negative information. And somebody gave a PFC with very little time in service a top secret clearance and access to critically secret information? My, how times have changed!
Left wing management
November 29th, 2010
4:36 pm
Kyle: “Along those lines, one useful result of Assange’s idiocy is that it shoots a very large hole through the notion, popular on the left here and abroad, that anti-Americanism was novel or exclusive to the Bush era. People who hate America hate us no matter who the president is. To think otherwise is naive or willfully ignorant.”
But this implies an equally misguided and naive assumption, which is that anti-Americanism is a Left wing phenomenon.
You say: “People who hate America hate us no matter who the president is. To think otherwise is naive or willfully ignorant.”
But this strikes me as a fantasy that is all too popular among the American right: that haters of America are all driven by a single, unreasonable motive and agenda.
Has it ever occurred to you that some “haters of America” might be justified in their hatred?
I’m willing to entertain that possibility – and THAT’s no left wing fantasy.
Double Standard
November 29th, 2010
4:36 pm
Jefferson – good question, people masquerading as our friends steal tens of billions of tax dollars from us each and every year, spy on us, sell our secrets to other enemies, and work hard to make sure their enemies are our enemies. You know who I am talking about, and so do their minions in America. One day we will pay them back in spades!
JDW
November 29th, 2010
4:37 pm
George rote:
“The hypocrisy of the media attack on Wikileaks: The traditional media has become so toothless it is reduced to attacking Wikileaks for doing its job properly.”
HORSE HOOEY! Since when is being in receipt of stolen goods “doing your job properly”. That is a crime in any country.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 29th, 2010
4:37 pm
Dear Double @ 4:25, I have no moral reservations about President Obama’s decision to ramp up the predator program. I’ll admit some qualms about using them to target Americans, such as the Islamist now hiding in South Yemen, but that reservation certainly does not extend to not-targeting a white Euroweenie.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 29th, 2010
4:38 pm
In war, every bullet is aimed. We are in a war, and there are enemies out there who would undermine the war effort, who would declare, “this war is lost.”
Kyle Wingfield
November 29th, 2010
4:41 pm
George @ 4:28: “On one hand you say the government is bad and they should be stopped, and on the other, you are protecting everything they do that you agree with.”
So, you acknowledge that I sometimes criticize the government, but then you accuse me of a “cow tow” (sic) to the government. Did I get that right?
I oppose things that I disagree with, and I support things that I agree with. Am I supposed to either support everything that anyone in government wants to do, or oppose it all? Do you understand how silly you sound?
Kyle Wingfield
November 29th, 2010
4:49 pm
Left wing @ 4:36: “But this implies an equally misguided and naive assumption, which is that anti-Americanism is a Left wing phenomenon.”
That’s not what I said. I would never say that someone who has a belief about the nature of anti-Americanism — that it springs from the actions of a single president — also holds that belief. So, I don’t know how you got from what I wrote to “anti-Americanism is a Left wing phenomenon.”
I’m sure that people of all political stripes hate us, although I might argue that many of them don’t fit on the political spectrum as we’ve traditionally seen it.
A Patriot
November 29th, 2010
5:02 pm
Quick……..shut the Wikileaks off.
Only state-sponsored news is allowed to dribble to the American sheeple.
The rest of the world already knows.
Left wing management
November 29th, 2010
5:14 pm
Kyle:
Actually, I’ll credit you that one. I may have misunderstood. If you’re claiming there may have been some naivety on the left about overcoming anti-Americanism simply by replacing Bush, I’ll certainly grant you that. Many of our less well-informed left wing friends may have thought that the animus was merely anti-Bush, when in reality it was in large part based on a well grounded opposition to a neo-conservative takeover of US foreign policy.
Kyle Wingfield
November 29th, 2010
5:15 pm
To all the WikiLeaks defenders, consider this, too: Who’s to say that we’re getting a full picture from the documents that have been leaked? According to CNN, which declined WikiLeaks’ conditions of receiving the material, and the NYT, which accepted it, one condition was anonymity for the source of the info. So, we don’t know what that person’s motivation is. Or Assange’s. Or that of any of the people involved with WikiLeaks.
And at 250,000 documents over the course of three years — that’s about 228 per day from the entire State Department and foreign service, or less than one per embassy per day. Who’s to say that additional documents that would couch some of the leaked comments, or give them context, haven’t been held back?
The point being, I find it odd that some of you will deride the media and “state-sponsored news” but apparently accept uncritically what WikiLeaks says.
Kyle Wingfield
November 29th, 2010
5:16 pm
Left wing @ 5:14: I don’t think we’re on the same page yet…
Double Standard
November 29th, 2010
5:17 pm
I agree with Left wing management, that is why I moved Left and voted for Obama, anyone to get the Neocon scum out of power.
Double Standard
November 29th, 2010
5:24 pm
The nyt makes a much better argument for publishing this material than Kyle does for suppressing it. Read it here .nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world/29editornote.html?_r=1
BS Aplenty
November 29th, 2010
5:35 pm
One day someone might explain the substantive foreign policy differences between liberal and conservative administrations that alternatively feed and quell this anti-American resentment. How does that resentment manifest itself other than in that well-understood pattern of nation-envy. You know, my sub’s bigger than yours…my per capita GDP’s bigger than yours…my Supreme Being’s more powerful/lives in a bigger temple than yours… Other than those types of resentment, there’s nothing new and nothing to alter our foreign policy objectives. Peace through military power and prosperity through trade…
BS Aplenty/Palin ‘12 (thanks, I’ll be here all week)
Dave
November 29th, 2010
6:46 pm
“But they don’t steal documents to do it.” An attempt at humor – there is a thing called theft by receiving, the AJC is innocent, in reporting here and on other occasions? As I recall the paper got the Atlanta school board report from, what shall we call it, an “unauthorized” source. The AJC made a decision that the ends justified the means, right or wrong, as did the New York Times, other papers and WikiLeaks.
That aside, I haven’t read anything that causes more than embarrassment and may slow down “frank” exchange of information and views in the near term.
What I find fascinating is all of the back channel support for what the United States is saying and doing with Iran, indeed, accusing Bush and Obama of not being aggressive enough (of course with the neighborhood Middle East states wanting to stay in the background).
A bit of transparency in the views of the neighborhood might slow an Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and a North Korea down. A problem with diplomacy is that the bratty kid on the block yells and screams and the more mature don’t say anything. Often with a kid, letting the kid know what you think of him and that his behavior has consequences, changes how he acts.
CJ
November 29th, 2010
6:48 pm
“How does that resentment manifest itself other than in that well-understood pattern of nation-envy.”
Nation-envy? Good god. Such displays of ignorance among voters are painful to see.
I encourage, no plead with, BS Aplenty and others suffering from Palin-lust to stop wallowing in their Fox Fantasy World and research and read about our history of U.S. covert activities to replace democratically elected leaders with murderous dictators or to prop up and maintain the activities of murderous dictators throughout the world. Peru, Brazil, Iran, Vietnam, Iraq, … The list goes on and on and on.
It’s not reaching to say that foreigners know as much or more about America’s foreign policy, then and now, than most Americans. As a result of such knowledge, many are understandably pi$#ed.
Left wing management
November 29th, 2010
6:48 pm
Left wing @ 5:14: I don’t think we’re on the same page yet…
Ah well. Not the first time and I’m sure it won’t be the last.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
November 29th, 2010
7:01 pm
Is there no longer any doubt that Bruno Clinton is trailer park trash?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
November 29th, 2010
7:03 pm
And how jealous must be the NY Treason Times, getting beat to the punch and all?
Sopwith Camel
November 29th, 2010
7:12 pm
I would have thought the CIA would have been put on the track of Assange by now with a clandestine goal of snuffing him out.
Left wing management
November 29th, 2010
8:19 pm
But to address your core point, Kyle, the way I see it is as follows: tthe latest Wikileaks leak is like watching a line of highfalutin guests on a parade platform have their pants ripped off, all at once, by a moving vehicle – much like the parade scene in Animal House. There’s always something slightly amusing about seeing a number of highly placed people take a pie in the face or suddenly have to cover their groin. But more importantly, it’s also instructive.
Now do I on principle support what Assange is doing under any circumstances? Not at all. And I certainly think it’s ultimately important that for world leaders to be able to talk ‘behind the scenes’ without fear of exposure exposure. In short, I don’t want to live in a bugged society – and I don’t want our diplomats to have to live in one either. But for right now, I think there’s a decent chance – though not overwhelming – that the instructive aspects of this fiasco will outweigh the damage that’s done on the diplomatic level.
ackack
November 29th, 2010
8:26 pm
Yup, we need to EXECUTE THE LEAKERS! Says the shill for the US government. MORE SECRECY, KILL THE WHISTLEBLOWERS!!
Campaign slogan: The truth is not out there, and it should stay not there, right? Keep the people ignorant, else they might not like what they know.
But we can’t even TALK about bringing home the troops that are executing an obscene foreign policy that is killing thousands of innocents abroad, bankrupting our nation, and creating MORE terrorist sympathizers by the minute.
DawgDad
November 29th, 2010
8:34 pm
Left wing management: Al Queda declared war on the US when CLINTON was the president. Guess you missed that, huh?
US should court martial the leaky service man for treason. Should be an open-and-shut slam-dunk case, followed by a quick execution. Just imagine you or your children going into COMBAT with this guy. They should also press charges against his superiors for dereliction of duty.
US should give Australia 24 hours to charge Assange with an extradictable crime, and if they don’t then we should deport all of the Australian diplomats on US territory and halt all non-US citizen transport to and from Australia (for the symbolic inconvenience, if nothing else). Make the country accountable for the warring/cyber-terrorist actions of its citizens. By all means, declare Wikileaks a terrorist organization.
DawgDad
November 29th, 2010
8:44 pm
This guy is NOT a “whistleblower”; no crimes or corruption targeted by his leaks. He’s a willful leaker of classified information, pure and simple, with apparent clear intent to harm US foreign relations. That’s treason.
You think this guy’s a “whistleblower”? Then open up your bankbook for the world to see. Tell us your SSN and post all of your email archives and hard-drive contents on-line for the public to access and use at will. Let’s see how open you are willing to be, in a freedom of information sense. Invasion of privacy without due cause and process is generally harmful, and we have ALL been harmed by this leak.
Hootinanny Yum Yum
November 29th, 2010
9:20 pm
Agreed.
While on the surface there appears to be no significant difference between stealing corporate classified documents and classified state department documents. There is a marked difference regarding who stole the documents. One is an “employee”, the other is a federal employee who swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.
I took that oath back in 1981. As a retired Air Force officer, I am still subject to recall. Manning is a traitor, pure and simple. Try him and, if guilty, execute him. Assange should be declared a terrorist and every effort made to capture, try and execute him.
My guess is that our military justice system will take care of Manning. As far as Assange is concerned, I expect one of our Arab allies will track him down and execute him for exposing their assessment of their neighbors.
Left wing management
November 29th, 2010
9:31 pm
Dawgdag: “US should court martial the leaky service man for treason. Should be an open-and-shut slam-dunk case, followed by a quick execution.”
Sounds a little autocratic to me. Isn’t it supposed to be in defense of DEMOCRATIC principles that all these campaigns in the Middle East are being carried out in the first place? Don’t know about you, but “quick executions’ sound like an effort that’s lost its soul to the very violence it’s trying to fight. (Quick: flash back to the eve of the invasion in 2003: weren’t you one of those touting the invasion as an effort to set up a beacon of democracy in the Middle East? Yet here you’re espousing Saddam-like tactics. So what happened?)
“Al Queda declared war on the US when CLINTON was the president. Guess you missed that, huh?”
How did Clinton come into this?
“US should give Australia 24 hours to charge Assange with an extradictable crime, and if they don’t then we should deport all of the Australian diplomats on US territory and halt all non-US citizen transport to and from Australia”
Isolate and bully Australia, an ally and affiliate of one of our major allies, Great Britain? What kind of diplomacy is that?
Couple too many after-dinner drinks tonight?
SpottyBush
November 29th, 2010
10:36 pm
The real fallout from WikiLeaks:
1. More and more leaks exposing corrupt governments and unethical corporate practices. This is contagious and ethical people who have access to information about unethical practices will access the power of WikiLeaks in order to force change. Assange has admitted WikiLeaks is flooded with information at present from around the world on a wide range of subjects. WikiLeaks is doing what unfettered journalists used to be good at when they were free of partisan state, corporate and media baron ownership.
2. The US in the short-term will not be able to rely on information collected abroad from foreign intelligence as foreign operatives will no longer have any faith in the security of the information surrendered. This comes at a particularly bad time. Foreign banks and financiers are already wary of American banking regulations and they have been burnt by our Wall Street swindlers and corrupt bond rating agencies. The American brand is on very shaky ground worldwide.
3. A re-shuffling of the entire American diplomatic core between countries in order to “reset” relations. This will be costly, time consuming and great distraction for the Obama administration when they have so many “hot” issues to deal with.
Executing Mr. Manning is absurd. This guy did us all a big favour. If he was able to so easily gather and release all this information to WikiLeaks without detection the entire structure of the intelligence information system is deeply flawed. At least all these leaks will all be out in the open for all to see, for good or bad. What else has been covertly gathered (by others on the inside) and funnelled quietly to other nations and intelligence networks that we are completely unaware of? That’s what we should be greatly concerned about! With 2.5 million folks able to access much of this information we have a lot of work to do!
In some ways this is a breath of fresh air from all the overly massaged messaging we get from our governments and corporate masters.
Can’t wait for the banking leaks, maybe we as Americans will finally get angry enough to prosecute all the Wall Street money-grabbers who “shorted” the American people and won! Not one single banker, bond rater, trader or broker has faced prosecution for almost taking down the world financial system! Let’s get our priorities straight and go after the real criminals who perpetrated a fiscal 9/11 on all of us!
luangtom
November 29th, 2010
10:48 pm
I have said it before…this smells of someone (PFC Manning) being a scape-goat for someone higher up the chain-of-command not doing their job. It wreaks of the Lt. Calley-syndrome from Vietnam. The massacre attributed to Lt. Calley could only have been carried out upon the orders of someone higher up the chain. Yet, with media frenzy and someone taking the fall, the American public was satisfied and all was well again in the Pentagon. Well, this is just another act in the play at another time. Cover-up.
If, indeed, these acts were those of PFC Manning, he should suffer the consequences. However, how about those that did not catch the access to the files and documents under whose care they were in? Someone monitors access and breaches of security. Someone knew this was happening. Why are their names not in the media and its frenzy? Dig a little deeper, media, and you will have others to crucify instead of just a lowly PFC analyst and the government just hoping this will go away when you crucify the PFC in the court of public opinion.
Question Man
November 29th, 2010
10:51 pm
Aren’t news sources reporting that 600,000 people had access to the leaked documents? Doesn’t that number make the material essentially public documents? Might this be a wake-up call to better control/know who has access and downloading capability, as well as better tracking of what is happening to the data base?
Krusty
November 30th, 2010
12:33 am
Why would I be care that a bunch of politicians who made impolitic remarks and did stupid things got busted and now are embarrassed. WikiLeaks and the soldier are heros for exposing the documents to the light of day. All the bluster about prosecuting them is just resentment talk from people who are getting their comeuppance in front of the whole world.
barking frog
November 30th, 2010
2:50 am
I am always suspicious of ‘leaked’ information. It usually has
a purpose not readily apparent. National Security is excellent
especially in regard to this volume of information. We may
never know why this information was published but I doubt
it was the work of one lone lowly soldier.
No More Progressives!
November 30th, 2010
7:19 am
on patroll
November 29th, 2010
2:30 pm
I will venture to say we are probably the only Country in the world that would allow a PFC to have access to this much classified information
Wouldn’t you think that just maybe he’s a scapegoat?
Dead on, Patrol. The left is all about blaming somenone/anyone; I don’t believe that this PFC had this much access, but that he was handed what others in the Gub’mint wanted released. The Federal Gub’mint is saturated with a whole colony of anti-American hangovers from the 60’s, and as long as the current president denies his documented relationship with Bill Ayers, well………….
JKL2
November 30th, 2010
8:06 am
I think it’s Valerie Plame’s fault.
It was all fun and games while it was Bush bashing. Now that it’s love and respect around the world, the Demwits are singing a different tune. I guess we’ll all just wait until the teleprompter comes up with a new solution, because it’s too early for opinion polls to lead us.
Will
November 30th, 2010
8:08 am
That’s surprising – republican newspaper writers didn’t seem to have a problem with the Bush Administration “outing” a CIA operative in retaliation for her husband’s criticism of Bush foreign policy.
glenn
November 30th, 2010
8:14 am
On a positive side , supposedly this Julian Assange is going after the American banking industry next . He still has time to win me over .
Did you say Wiki...or Wiccan.
November 30th, 2010
8:16 am
The Wikileaks explain the shelling by North Korea on that South Korean island. It was blog rage, pure and simple. We’ve all felt it, when we perceived that our local chatroom is turning against us. “But that’s not what I meant”…..”but I never said that”…. are common threads here and everywhere else, even classified CIA and diplomatic chatrooms!
Surely Kim Jong Il is no exception to lashing out at the easily-deduced panoply of gossip mongerers turning oh-so-clever phrases with him as the punchline. Kyle’s assessment is sophmoric and proves this man has neither insight nor patriotism; and I find it particulary offensive that he stoops to inciting hatred for the US and then condones that hatred as a projection of his own self-loathing in a grim acceptance of his misquided world view. “They hate us no matter who we elect”. No, Kyle, they hate us because of the way you conservatives writers use your keyboards as some sort of euphemism smelter to distract voters from the wars you perpetuate in the name of your defense industry sponsors. You’re the great satan, not America.
“Smart bombs cause very little collateral damage. Pass the peas.” Kyle Wingfield 2003
(I know, that’s not what you said.)
bwa
pat
November 30th, 2010
8:38 am
The real fall out is that Iran looks as bad as they are, Bush looks more and more right, and China is a enemy of the U.S. not an ally. It also pretty much proves that all of oabama’s foreign policy initiatives are a massive fail over all.
I am not worried about Assange, you can bet there are about 50 countries who have a target on his head, on top of being on the cusp of at least one rape conviction. Not a large surprise from a militant Iran supporter.
pat
November 30th, 2010
8:40 am
Don’t be surprised if Assange gets executed. He may be trying to bring down the U.S., but he embarrassed a lot of his “freinds” in the process. They ain’t happy and they ain’t known for their restraint.
I don’t expect Chinese guns are to accurate though, everything else they make is crap.
No More Progressives!
November 30th, 2010
8:47 am
Will
November 30th, 2010
8:08 am
That’s surprising – republican newspaper writers didn’t seem to have a problem with the Bush Administration “outing” a CIA operative in retaliation for her husband’s criticism of Bush foreign policy.
“Washington offers numerous opportunities for high officials bent on undermining the Will of Congress, as well as the Chief Executive and his explicit, lawful directives. Richard Armitage, as we now know, ignored an express Presidential Directive in the Plame investigation when he failed to notify the White House that he was the source of the leak to Bob Novak.”
http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/10/richard_armitage_and_the_quiet.html
Name a “Republican” newspaper writer. Just one.
DawgDad
November 30th, 2010
10:00 am
“This guy did us all a big favour.”
As a US citizen and ex-military (enlisted) I am frankly APPALLED at your attitude toward what is an apparent (yet to be tried) treasonous dereliction of duty.
When we as a people collectively lose all sense of duty and honor and respect for our nation and its citizens, just what do we have left, and how long do you think we’ll survive in this world? I have a son who recently served in the Marines in Iraq and he has numerous friends in and recently returned from Afghanistan and Iraq. These people put on their uniforms, risk their lives for you and me, and live up to their oaths and obligations, doing us and themselves great honor and service. What does your statement tell them and us about your respect for their service to our great country, when you seem to think someone in service uniform under the same oath and obligation is “doing us a favor” by disclosing classified information and thus violating his oath treasonously? You may have a first amendment right to express your opinion, but I also have a right to say “shame on you”. Grow up. These are not computer games at play here.
Left wing management
November 30th, 2010
10:15 am
DawgDad: “As a US citizen and ex-military (enlisted) I am frankly APPALLED at your attitude toward what is an apparent (yet to be tried) treasonous dereliction of duty.”
Assange is not even a US citizen. What ‘duty’ is that?
CJ
November 30th, 2010
10:38 am
“I think it’s Valerie Plame’s fault.”
I forgot about Valerie Plame. Her case reinforces my earlier point.
Plame and, indirectly, her covert colleagues at the CIA were deliberately outed for political gain. Yes, a very strong case could be made that those involved committed treason and that the damage was as or more serious than these leaks.
Would Kyle advocate that those involved be executed? Somehow, I doubt it.
DawgDad
November 30th, 2010
10:49 am
I’m referring to Pvt. Manning. If you mean Assange is doing us a great favor by exposing our leaks, then I’d say his methods are wholly inappropriate and his motives clearly bent on doing us harm.
Left wing management
November 30th, 2010
11:00 am
DawgDag: “I’m referring to Pvt. Manning”
I realized after posting that you probably meant Manning, not Assange, and that’s fine. I don’t disagree with you. From that standpoint, it is ghastly and treasonous and I believe that Manning should be subject to the full measure of the military law to which he’s subject.
As to whether Assange’s are “bent on doing us harm” pure and simple, that’s not at all clear. What is clear is that he holds an idealistic and strict view towards transparency and he feels that there is no small measure of hypocrisy in US policy. And can you blame him?
While I don’t necessarily share Assange’s views on absolute transparency at all costs, I do think he’s responding to a need that is out there and in which the United States shares responsibility.
@@
November 30th, 2010
11:24 am
Somehow I knew the left-wingers would show up to support Assange. I’m with Ragnar on the use of Predators. You’d think some mysterious motorcycle type could find his/her way to take the guy out.
This administration will go to great lengths to protect “Holly’s wood”, but state’s secrets? Not so much.
Priorities, priorities. Sheesh!
nelson
November 30th, 2010
11:47 am
Ist, Julian Assange could not be prosecuted for treason. Treason is a term used when congress has declared war against a country. What is going on now is an armed conflict. I would say espionage would be the way to go. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were convicted of espionage for giving atomic bomb secrets to the Russians. Also. Julian Assange is an Australian citizen. Julian was looking for residency in Sweden because of its more liberal regulations of the internet and their search engines.
His whereabouts at this time are unknown, although atleast one country has offered him residency no questions asked.
I have not read anything particularly damning in wikileaks so far. Other countries may see the U.S. as not being able to keep a secret, that is the worst so far.
Sweden wants to interview him about alleged rape allegations which Julian claims is part of a smear campaign.
on patroll
November 30th, 2010
5:10 pm
shouldn’t assange be tried in a military tribunal? since he’s a non-citizen you know.
Dean
December 4th, 2010
12:54 pm
Please explain to me why exactly a news media organization can persecute another publisher (wikileaks) for providing documents, and at the same time publishing a story FROM the documents provided. If wikileaks is able to be prosecuted under US law, explain to me why your news organization and NYT (along with all others publishing these documents) could not be prosecuted as well. I say stop this propaganda and leave wikileaks alone, stop being hypocrites, publish the information if you want but don’t bite the hand that feeds you. You’ll jump on the ole bandwagon attacking Assange, but if a leaked document brings in an extra buck or two by God you’ll be the first to publish. Wikileaks did not steal the files. They aren’t even the ones publishing them! It’s our news outlets!
Dean Brannon
December 4th, 2010
3:56 pm
George: Of course journalists “question government and corporate power.” But they don’t steal documents to do it. And I don’t consider Assange a journalist.
Kyle, do you think that wikileaks stole this information? Is that why you wrote this article? Obviously you’re seriously mistaken, and anybody with half a brain knows the best news usually comes from people who weren’t supposed to see the information.
And I really need to hear you say that you don’t actually think wikileaks stole those files, because that’s just perverting the truth. If they did, so did NYT and anybody who covered them. I think maybe the media doesn’t like that there’s an even more unbiased publisher out there to compete. I don’t think wikileaks is going anywhere.
Dean
December 4th, 2010
4:15 pm
thanks auto-fill for telling everyone my last name. /sigh.