Broad base, flat rate equal tax fairness
There’s a four-letter word that starts with “F” and is used by just about any elected official you’ll ever meet — even though each usage is bound to make someone mad.
Say it with me: “fair.”
What, you thought I was going to say “free”?
Fair’s fair, except when it isn’t. There may not be a more disagreed-upon word in politics. Yet, there it is, in the name of a group tasked with recommending ways for legislators to revamp Georgia’s tax code.
The Legislature this spring created the Special Council on Tax Reform and Fairness for Georgians to do what legislators don’t like to do: talk about getting rid of some people’s tax breaks. The council’s remit is broader than that, but that’s where the action is.
Along the way, we’re going to hear a lot, much of it conflicting, about what fairness means when it comes to the tax code.
For now, the council’s chairman, businessman and Atlanta Olympics organizer A.D. Frazier, channels former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart: “I think we’ll know fairness when we see it.”
Well, he and his colleagues are being presented with a lot to see, and hear.
Nonprofits come before the council to ask to keep their sales-tax exemptions. Watchdog groups suggest that some nonprofits — hospitals, mostly — don’t report enough of their financial information for us to know whether their exemptions are justified.
Farmers argue that they generate plenty of income for the state, and might be put out of business if they lose some of their myriad tax breaks. Anti-tobacco groups plead for higher taxes on cigarettes, to boost revenue and reduce the state’s future health spending. Children’s advocacy groups ask for more generous deductions for parents. Local officials say, please, pretty please, don’t fix the state’s problem by dumping a mess onto us.
And all of that came on just the first of at least seven days of public hearings.
The point being, there are many ox owners out there who view this council as one big horn. “Any change in the incidence of tax is going to create a winner on one side and a loser on the other,” Frazier says.
That’s the reality today, but it doesn’t have to be reality forever. In fact, if the council members — and, in turn, legislators — do their job well, we’ll move away from a tax code that picks winners and losers.
We’ll move toward a tax code that is fair in its simplicity — one that tries only to raise revenue for the state’s necessary functions, and not to reward certain activities or make up for life’s unequal outcomes.
For personal income tax, that means having a single rate above a set exemption — rather than today’s system of five brackets before you reach even $7,000 of taxable earnings. This system manages to be neither flat nor very progressive, just needlessly complicated.
It also means applying taxes broadly, not dishing out exemptions or credits. If legislators want to encourage certain behaviors or address certain inequalities, they can do so on the spending side of the ledger, which in most cases is the best place for that kind of policy.
Interest groups and their lobbyists won’t like that; tax-code provisions tend to be more permanent than appropriations. But they’re also part of the reason for our fiscal incoherence, because they narrow the tax base and thereby make state revenues more prone to gyrations when the economy goes from flush to just flushed.
That’s in no one’s interest, since government’s tendency amid downturns is to look for new sources of income: fee hikes, new types of tax and other “revenue enhancements.”
Broaden the base, flatten the rate, and let the state pay for what it must pay and otherwise stay out of the way.
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85 comments Add your comment
Hillbilly Deluxe
September 1st, 2010
7:12 pm
An idea with some merit, Kyle, but I’ll believe it’ll happen, when I see it.
josef nix
September 1st, 2010
7:23 pm
” In fact, if the council members — and, in turn, legislators — do their job well, we’ll move away from a tax code that picks winners and losers.”
And if a frog had wings, he wouldn’t bump his ass when he jumps…do their job well? Not in this lifetime…
@@
September 1st, 2010
7:23 pm
I’d like to see this take root at the state level, then move on up to the federal level. Politicians, for too long, have used taxes to foment a civil war in this country. As time goes on it’s turned out to be not so civil.
CJ
September 1st, 2010
7:34 pm
I support the goals of fairness and simplicity. However, since sales and other state and local forms of taxation are regressive, the result of Kyle’s single rate proposal would result in low and middle income families paying a disproportionate share of family income to the state while the wealthiest pay the smallest portion of family incomes. That’s not entirely fair, by any measure.
When designing a comprehensive tax base, all forms of taxation need to be taken into account and the relative burden of all such taxes on families need to be considered—not just the specific tax (i.e., state income tax) under discussion.
I would love to support a single income tax rate if it didn’t result in placing the state’s boot on the heads of low income families (we need grow the middle class, after all) and if it raised enough revenue to fund excellent schools, transportation systems, water and environmental management, caring for children in our foster system…
But those are big ifs. Too big, I’m afraid.
Grand Forks
September 1st, 2010
8:21 pm
Al Gore should go to jail. This is the second domestic terrorist that was influenced by Al Gore.
Police kill Discovery building gunman
Lee said at the time that he experienced an ‘‘awakening” when he watched former Vice President Al Gore’s environmental documentary ‘‘An Inconvenient Truth.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38957020/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
Tyler Durden
September 1st, 2010
8:29 pm
I couldn’t agree more with KW on this. For far too long, the good ol’ boy system has thrived in state politics, and the coziness of lobbyists and legislature members has guaranteed a cottage industry of tax breaks, credits, exemptions and other words that all translate into: dodge. Revisit the tax code from top to bottom, and make it a transparent process.
Whoever ends up Guv would be hardpressed to make it happen outright, but I’d admire and encourage any sincere effort to that effect…
barking frog
September 1st, 2010
9:17 pm
good idea. not going to happen.
JF McNamara
September 1st, 2010
9:21 pm
I’m for cutting the breaks and an overhaul, but I’m also for a progressive tax rate. I’m not rich but I have more to give than most, and I don’t mind. The proportion of my income in real dollars is a lot less than someone making a lot less than me. I’d just sack the money away or waste it at the mall while some poor person is being squeezed on toilet paper and food.
What I don’t want most of all is for rich people to be the only winners. In our society, that’s generally what happens, and that’s what will happen by flattening the tax bracket. More of the burden will be on the middle and lower class. Call me a socialist (and I’m sure you will), but those who can do more should do more.
The Aristocrat
September 1st, 2010
9:28 pm
While the proposed fair tax shifts burden onto the middle and lower classes, who by the nature of their income would then pay a disproportionate percentage of their income versus the upper class, is it fair that 51% of taxpayers currently pay all of the income tax?
The poor enjoy all of the benefits of the state and are given entitlements of a welfare state, but pay nothing in return. Is that fair?
The wealthy pay the majority of taxes collected and reap only public works benefits e.g. roads, police, fire departments, etc. Is that fair?
The time has come for a modicum of self reliance and paying one’s way.
David S
September 1st, 2010
9:31 pm
Nothing’s more fair than a flat 0%.
Metro Coach
September 1st, 2010
9:33 pm
CJ, do you just copy and paste progressive talking points? I swear that’s what every progressive person says about flat taxes. If the state income tax rate was 10%, and 1 family made $10k, one made 100k, and a thrid made 10M, then the family making 10k would pay the least, how does that place an undue burden on the lowest earners? Also, funny how you ignore the fact that under the current tax system, those bottom earners actually make money off the government. I guess you have a problem with everyone “getting some skin in the game” as one of your leaders loves to say.
Metro Coach
September 1st, 2010
9:34 pm
JF, nobody ever said you couldn’t pay more if you wanted to, give as much of your money away as you want, but some people like to think the money they make is their’s, not the government’s, and they would like to keep it.
paleo-neo-Carlinst
September 1st, 2010
9:48 pm
when we gonna stops “welfare” for churches? tax churches, AND make drugs legal; and while we’re at it, booze on Sundays.
Grand Forks
September 1st, 2010
10:00 pm
“when we gonna stops “welfare” for churches?”
Churches don’t take government money, ma’am.
Hillbilly Deluxe
September 1st, 2010
10:11 pm
Sunday liquor sales wouldn’t generate any more taxes, it’d just spread it out over 7 days instead of 6.
atlmom
September 1st, 2010
10:18 pm
jf: really ? You think the government can do better with your money than you? really? wow. i think they do a lousy job…
Le Bourgeois
September 1st, 2010
11:00 pm
I don’t think flattening the tax rate will result in a dramatic increase in the proportionate amount of income the middle class pays (compared to today). The lower class, so to speak, would still be exempt. By flattening the income tax rate, the wealthiest will still pay the largest portion of the income taxes but if we shut down all of the loopholes available for the higher brackets that 35%, for example, will still be 35% and not 15% after their CPA’s find the holes. Meanwhile that burden on the middle class will actually decrease as more money is paid into the system from the wealthier payers’ income taxes and perhaps would result in a lower flat rate for everyone because everyone would actually be paying the real rate.
As for the business side of things, have you ever read the massive code section on sales tax exemptions alone? Not to mention the super special breaks given to companies. (Check out the one for Pecan-harvesting equipment sales) You can almost pinpoint the company the tax break was written for. Small and medium sized businesses should not have to compete against larger corporations for an equal playing field. These companies likely already receive local government property tax abatements in order to locate there. Not to bash big business by any means, but in this, the government certainly picks the winners and losers.
paleo-neo-Carlinst
September 1st, 2010
11:13 pm
Grand Dorks, churches take in millions (and collectively billions of dollars), but do not pay taxes. churches are moochers, not producers.
CJ
September 2nd, 2010
12:32 am
Metro Coach: “If the state income tax rate was 10%, and 1 family made $10k, one made 100k, and a thrid made 10M, then the family making 10k would pay the least, how does that place an undue burden on the lowest earners?”
Man, I hate it when the Sean Hannity addicts live under the illusion that liberals are the mirror image of them. Just because Metro Coach relies on talking points (e.g. 47 percent don’t pay “any” taxes), doesn’t mean that I do.
Now for the sake of discussion, I’ll pretend that the portion of my comment that Metro Coach chooses to ignore—the part about taking all forms of taxation into consideration—doesn’t exist.
Focusing on his single rate example, a family making $10,000 per year is damn poor. In fact that’s true for anybody living at or below the so-called poverty level (the government poverty level is actually understated).
People in this situation are wondering if they’re going to keep their job when the MARTA bus is late–again. Or they’re wondering how they’re going to pay for the car repair if the battery goes bad. Families and individuals living at or in poverty are desperate. They stress about the utility and water bills, they stress about the leaking roof, grocery bills, and the possibility of getting kicked out of their homes or apartments. Simply put, they stress about being homeless or being a burden to others.
If you don’t want to tax the poor because your a heartless SOB, then don’t tax them because you’re selfish. Every dollar spent is an injection into the economy, and unlike the middle class and wealthy, the poor spend every single dollar they have (spending is prerequisite to returns on our investments and savings). Also, by limiting the tax burden on the poor, we’re increasing the likelihood that they can climb into the middle class. That $100 tax bill can be the $100 they needed to fix the car to get to work to keep their jobs.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that taxing low income families shrinks our wallets and reducing the tax burden on low income families fattens them. I know it’s counter-intuitive, but it happens to be true.
On second thought, this argument is a talking point. But it belongs to President Reagan who expanded the earned income tax credit in order to offset the the payroll/sales tax burden of poor families. He called he EITC is “the best anti-poverty, the best pro-family, the best job creation measure to come out of Congress.”
What a commie!
get out much?
September 2nd, 2010
12:44 am
Kyle, this just sounds like the old “starve the beast” strategy. Tell you what, when you decide to start cutting expenses, then you can start cutting taxes. Tell me what services you plan to eliminate, then you can start talking about “tax reform”.
DeborahinAthens
September 2nd, 2010
5:56 am
Grand Forks, churches don’t “take” government money, however, they do not pay taxes. And some of the mega churches are nothing more than corporations and political action groups. Besides, they utilize public services–sewer, fire department, etc. Why shouldn’t they pay taxes?
Winfield J. Abbe
September 2nd, 2010
5:59 am
It costs roughly $12,000 per year per child in public school. This is alot of money. How many of the adults who have sex and have the children pay these costs in any way, shape or form? Virtually none of them pay it. For a family of four children, this cost rises to almost $50,000 per year or over a twelve year run through high school a whopping $600,000!
But those having fun in the bedroom do not worry about this at all because no matter how many little brats they have from that fun each child will be enrolled in school at someone else’s expense.
Where did this idea come from, where folks can irresponsibly have children and pass the cost of raising those children on to others? Why it came from those countries we once had wars with like Nazi, Germany or the former Soviet Union or the movies Robin Hood. Do you remember Communism and Karl Marx? Karl Marx, the Father of Communism, enunciated this principle:
“From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”. The outlaw Robin Hood, glamourized in so many Hollywood movies with Errol Flynn stole from the rich and gave to the poor.
These are the principles upon which the laws of Georgia take money from the responsible folks and pay the costs of the irresponsible folks for all that fun in the bedroom for a few minutes.
This has to stop.
Furthermore, the local counties are fraudulently collecting money from property taxes on property when the value has dropped like a rock by 50% or more. If any business or private citizen did this to another they would be in jail for fraud and theft by deception. This is where the county tax collectors and county government’s should be in GEorgia: In Jail for theft and fraud. They have not property reduced the values of property and the State Legislature has totally sold us taxpayers out.
Georgia is the most corrupt government on the planet. It needs to get its act together and allow every government official to be prosecuted personally for theft, fraud and violations of the Constitution which all government in Georgia hates so much and patently disregards with impunity.
Citizen’s committees must be empowered in Georgia to place criminal government in jail here for a change. Since there are no penalties, government is a corrupt cesspool.
How many of you are paying over half a million dollars for education costs of you family of 4 children through high school?
Winfield J. Abbe
September 2nd, 2010
6:09 am
The property tax is the most unfair tax in the world. Do you know where these enormous taxes to pay the education costs of children fostered from that fun in the bedroom for a few minutes? Most of them come from businesses which cannot even vote! I know a person who pays about $100,000 of property tax in the local county. About 60% of that tax or $60,000 goes to public schools. Since it costs about $12,000 per year per student in public school, he is forced to pay the education costs of about 5 children whom he did NOT foster, but others fostered from that fun in the bedroom. His family of four children grew up years ago. He does not live in the county where this is happening so cannot even vote there! He has no representation in his financial tax obscenity at all the very issue over which our ancestors fought a violent revolutionary war over two centuries ago! This is sick sick sick…..sick stuff folks. We must begin having that unwanted politically incorrect discussion about who can and who cannot have children from that fun in the bedroom for a few minutes because someone else is going to have to pick up the financial pieces and enormous costs of raising those children and it is not the ones having the fun. You and I are being forced to pay these outrageous costs which ultimately place us at risk and bankrupt us! This Communist Robin Hood philosophy must come to an end. This money for the selfish benefit of others is coming from our children and grandchildren. Shame shame shame on the good for nothing cowardly Communist non representativeds who passed such unfair and unconscionable laws forcing responsible folks to pay the costs of the iresponsible folks in patent violation of the very principles of our Constitution which government hates and gang rapes each and every day of the year every year.
Uncle Billy
September 2nd, 2010
6:16 am
So Abbe, you want a country without public education? Without any kind of government at all? No roads, no sidewalks, no police department, no fire department because someone’s bedroom pleasure might inconvenience you? Then you could educate those you want to employ when you needed a new employee. Public colleges would be out also. Indeed why have any government at all if it is “a corrupt cesspool?” How lovely it must be to be so virtuous in such a cesspool. Or maybe not.
Winfield J. Abbe
September 2nd, 2010
6:19 am
Our country was based on personal responsibility. It was not based on the idea that you and I must pay for the fun in the bedroom of others. We have enough trouble paying for our own fun in the bedroom don’t we? How can we be expected to pay for other’s too? But that is what our incompetent lawmakers have done. They have passed totally foolish laws forcing us to pay the costs of irresponsible folks who frolic in the bedroom and out pops another child which costs millions of dollars to house, clothe and educate and to provide healthcare for. This has to come to an end. The money must end for this nonsense. We will have financial destruction and ruin if we continue to permit this nonsense to remain business as usual. If people cannot afford the millions of dollars to raise children they foster, they are going to have to be prevented from having those children period because otherwise you and I and our children and our grandchildren are going to pay the costs not just for our family, but everyone else’s family too! How do you like that idea of Amerika? I dont’ like the idea do you? I am tired of paying for the costs of others arein’t you? I can’t afford it. I have enough trouble paying for my own responsibilities don’t you? Folks, we must end this nightmare. We must have the discussion about preventing those who cannot afford the enormous costs of raising children from having those children at the whims of fun in the bedroom. This is not funny. This is no fun. Wake up Americans and tell your non representatives to stop copying Communism in making laws.
Winfield J. Abbe
September 2nd, 2010
6:33 am
Notice the person using the anonymous alias of “uncle billy” above makes foolish statements seeking to fool others. How much does he or she pay for the costs of government? Who knows? He or she is not identified. He or she has no responsibility for comments. He or she may foster or have fostered a dozen children the coss of which are being paid for by you and I. The point is that when a boat is sinking either all those in the boat sink with it or some must be thrownoverboard. It is much more humane to prevent a life from being borne than to use the ugly, violent process of abortion promoted by so many mothers today isn’t it? Birth control is the way to prevent too may people from overloading the boat. Government is far too big today and has gotten itself involved in far too many activities which have nothing to do with the normal functions of government. The way of raising money to pay costs of government is totally unfair where the haves pay the costs of the have nots and those people commenting with an alias or under phony names are very likely the ones who don’t pay their fair share of costs since it benefits them to have laws forcing others to pay their way. Education is very expensive and wasteful. Many administrators in public edcation make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and retire on good money and do not deserve it. This must come to an end. We must wake up folks and change things lest this country fall into bankruptcy in more ways than one. In fact, we are already basically bankrupt morally and financially.
Responsible people identify themselves and do not hide behind phony names like members of the KKK.
Ayn Rant
September 2nd, 2010
6:36 am
“The only fair tax is the one somebody else pays”! So, a “fair” tax is hopeless but a good tax would have the following characteristics:
-Simple and easy to understand and comply with, but futile to contest. The tax code should consist of no more than 3 typewritten (Times New Roman, 12-pitch) pages.
-Produces enough revenue to fulfill the state’s responsibilities.
-Allows exemptions for household dependents, only, and allows deductions for charitable contributions, only. (Subsidies for good causes should be appropriated outright rather than buried in the tax code as exemptions and deductions.)
-Taxes every person according to their ability to pay. Those who benefit most from living in a civilized society should pay the most taxes. Those living below the poverty line should pay none.
-Taxes income earned by labor, and dividends and capitals gains from equity investments, at a more favorable rate than gifts, excessive wages, executive bonuses, golden parachutes, proceeds from gambling, and dividends and gains from speculative financial schemes.
Karl Marx
September 2nd, 2010
6:36 am
Republicans in his state had 8 year to do what they promised and lower taxes and reduce government. Now that the economy had done it for them they want to take credit for it them they raised taxes and fees to compensate. When a Repub’s tell you they are for lower taxes and smaller government it is a lie. They could not even get rid of the “Art Council” while cutting out school arts programs. They deserve to lose. This “Tax Council” should scare everyone. It’s just another way to increase revenue or to remover the weasel words, “Raise Taxes”, Again.
No More Progressives!
September 2nd, 2010
7:02 am
CJ
September 1st, 2010
7:34 pm
I support the goals of fairness and simplicity. However, since sales and other state and local forms of taxation are regressive, the result of Kyle’s single rate proposal would result in low and middle income families paying a disproportionate share of family income to the state while the wealthiest pay the smallest portion of family incomes. That’s not entirely fair, by any measure.
So, let me see if I understand this. Low & middle income families eat more bread and buy more stuff than, say, Warren Buffet.
Please explain what a “regressive” tax is. Inquiring minds want to know.
No More Progressives!
September 2nd, 2010
7:05 am
Ayn Rant
September 2nd, 2010
6:36 am
-Produces enough revenue to fulfill the state’s responsibilities.
I will agree with this, as long as I have a say so in what a “state responsibility” is.
The friggin’ government, at all levels, can learn to do with a little less, just like me.
Skip
September 2nd, 2010
7:53 am
Fair is what the rich say it is, always has been and always will be.
JKL2
September 2nd, 2010
8:12 am
I think tax is one of the few things IL does right. Here goes:
Net income-$1k per dependant X .03= your income tax
You can pay more if you like, but there are virtually no deductions. Everybody pays since everybody uses. If you don’t like it, get another/better paying job. Otherwise, here’s your box of kleenex. Don’t let the door hit your a@@ on the way out.
paleo-neo-Carlinst
September 2nd, 2010
8:21 am
as with the federal budget issues, the problems in GA have to do with spending. Thomas Paine’s observations about government are worth noting. public education is tricky, if for no other reason than it was established as a warehouse for the children of lower class and unskilled labor (since sweat shops and child labor were banned, and we all know how those immigrants, ‘expecially Catholics, love to make babies). but every “service” from trash collection, to law enforcement to fire and EMTs at the local level; through roads and education at the state level, have become bloated, wasteful beasts, which exist to exist, as opposed to providing some service for the community. perhaps the solution is to require the “private sector” types suggest that employers provide “education” for the children of their employees. and maybe, since the “state” feels authorized to establish a “minimum wage” ALL city, county, state and federal employees (blue collar and white collar) should be paid the same wage. I agree the tax codes need to be tweeked, but it all starts with spending.
Eric
September 2nd, 2010
8:26 am
I’ll pay a fair tax when corporations start paying a fair wage!
Metro Coach
September 2nd, 2010
8:48 am
CJ I’m not talking about any other taxes. The who taxarion discussion starts with the income tax. If incometaxes were lowered or eliminated, then other taxes would be less of a burden to every consumer, no matter how much money they made. If I made 36K a year and was able to bring all that home, as opposed to having to guess how much I owe the state or the feds, then that 8% sales tax isn’t so bad now. But when my 3k gross salary a month is reduced by over 1k due to income taxes, then that sales tax makes a much bigger difference. The problem starts and ends with income taxes.
Metro Coach
September 2nd, 2010
8:49 am
Eric, have you seen a union pension lately? It’s not the worker getting screwed.
Road Scholar
September 2nd, 2010
8:58 am
Metro, who pays the pension? Didn’t they have the right and means to negotiate the compensation package? Management did it to themselves. And you want to place the responsibility on whom?
interested observer
September 2nd, 2010
9:00 am
Georgia’s income tax is virtually the same for everyone, in reality, so while it may be onerous to some, it’s “fair.” I would not be opposed to a realistically tiered system, with higher rates for higher incomes, but those rates should not be punitive.
The issue is how to apply the sales tax. people love to boast that it’s the fairest of all taxes since it taxes consumption, but we all know that it hits hardest people who have to spend ALL of their income to survive. Those are the people who will suffer if “reform” increases the reliance on sales tax, and they should be given some consideration.
As unpopular as they are, property taxes do provide some revenue stability, but the state’s quarter mill is hardly a factor in one’s overall tax picture.
What tilts the tax system out of fairness are the exemptions given to special interest groups. That includes farmers and nonprofits, but many more groups as well. You can bet that if a new tax formula is reached and approved, by the next legislative session the General Assembly will field a host of bills exempting one group or another.
That is also the flaw in the so-called Fair Tax. Even if you accept the assumptions upon which it is based, by the time the ink is dry on a president’s signature, Congress will be offering exemptions to this group and that and pretty soon the Fair Tax will be just as complicated as the current income tax code and just as unfair.
Nobody wants to pay taxes. Everyone thinks THEY deserve a break, but everyone wants others to pay their share. Tax breaks are like earmarks; they’re in the eye of the beholder. You can bet that the special interest friends of our bought-and-paid-for Congress/General Assembly (both parties, mind you) will begin the subversion of any new tax system even as it’s being drafted.
jconservative
September 2nd, 2010
9:02 am
Nice timely column. Two phrases caught my attention:
“…if the council members — and, in turn, legislators — do their job well,…”
“…the state’s necessary functions,…”
“Do their jobs well..” – One might have hope that the council might be able to do a good job. But the legislature? Here you are reaching into the land of Alice.
“,,,the state’s necessary functions,…” Here is where we really need to have a conversation. We are way past the time when need to re-examine the role of State & Local government. We in a period of revenue gloom that has no foreseeable end. Might continue for a few years, might continue for a few decades.
So the question is, what do we NEED government to do, not what do we WANT government to do. As an example – do we really NEED a Georgia State Patrol? Really need? This is the type question we need to be asking and answering.
As a caveat, we have tried the “fair tax” in this county as a partial replacement of property taxes. Voted down 2 – 3 several times. So good luck on that.
paleo-neo-Carlinst
September 2nd, 2010
9:05 am
Metro Coach, the city of Atlanta’s generosity aside (retirement benefits, pensions, etc.), the union and the penison are becoming things of the past (again, with the exception of firefighters, police officers, and public sector employees). it’s the same old, same old (auto makers). if the business negotiates a deal as part of a collective bargaining agreement, then it negotiates a deal. the problem is, private sector businesses generate revenue via the sale of goods and services, the purchase of which (save health insurance, right?) is completely voluntary. as taxpayers and citizens, the city, state, and local “protection racket” takes our money, regardless of whether we “consume” or “purchase” services. perfect example; I live in Atlanta. my solid waste bill increased by about $75 this year (over $400). I produce very little trash, and maybe put my “hurby curby” out 1 day a month, yet the trash truck rolls down my street (with a crew of three?) to pick up non-existent trash. so yeah, the taxes linked to city employee benefits in pension need a closer look, but private sector pensions are not part of the equation.
Grand Forks
September 2nd, 2010
9:11 am
“Grand Dorks, churches take in millions (and collectively billions of dollars), but do not pay taxes. churches are moochers, not producers.”
paleo-neo-troglodyte, like I said, churches don’t take government money. They are considered non-profits.
Not sure if you are brain dead or what but Kyle already warned you about name calling.
Tick…tick…tick….
Grand Forks
September 2nd, 2010
9:14 am
“Grand Forks, churches don’t “take” government money, however, they do not pay taxes. And some of the mega churches are nothing more than corporations and political action groups. Besides, they utilize public services–sewer, fire department, etc. Why shouldn’t they pay taxes?”
You’re none too bright is ya. Churches are not for profits.
“Besides, they utilize public services–sewer, fire department, etc.”
Yeah, and the people who give money to churches…..GASP!!!!!!!!, are taxpayers. Many of whom WORK for those services.
” Why shouldn’t they pay taxes?”
Because they are non-profits, ma’am. Get over yourself.
Grand Forks
September 2nd, 2010
9:16 am
“churches are moochers, not producers.”
A: Who do they mooch off of?
B: Churches produce Godly people who serve in their communities. Churches also give money, time and energy into helping other people. See: Hurricane Katrina. The church I attended in Memphis sent over 200 people down to help rebuild houses and provide services to people in need.
paleo-neo-Carlinst
September 2nd, 2010
9:22 am
Grand Dorks, when you stop referring to me as a woman, I will afford you adult privileges. what is “fair” about a business declaring itself as a “non-profit” (megachurch) simply for the tax benefits? in addition, the “donations” made by taxpayers are tax deductible, which means these “taxpayers” are not paying their fair share of taxes (is it any different than when some UGA alum “donates” $10,000.00 to the UGA athletic department, an enteprise that takes in over $100 million per year)? you want a consumption tax or “fair tax” then treat everyone the same. tax exempt status for churches is no different than farm subsidies or the “corporate welfare” provided to oil companies, drug companies or any other private sector enterprise (for reasons listed by other posts). OH, and be a man (assuming you are). don’t hide behind Kyle or use Kyle to threaten me.
Grand Forks
September 2nd, 2010
9:27 am
“Grand Dorks, when you stop referring to me as a woman, I will afford you adult privileges.”
Uh, hate to burst your bubble, but there is no way I know that you are a man. To me you’re another girl on here complaining about everything.
“what is “fair” about a business declaring itself as a “non-profit” (megachurch) simply for the tax benefits?”
All churches are non-profits. Not just mega churches like you state. Also, why do you want to take other people’s money away?
“in addition, the “donations” made by taxpayers are tax deductible, which means these “taxpayers” are not paying their fair share of taxes (is it any different than when some UGA alum “donates” $10,000.00 to the UGA athletic department, an enteprise that takes in over $100 million per year)?”
Please use spell check, ma’am. Also, there are a LOT of things that are tax deductible. Houses, kids etc….
Get over your wealth envy.
“tax exempt status for churches is no different than farm subsidies or the “corporate welfare” provided to oil companies, drug companies or any other private sector enterprise (for reasons listed by other posts).”
Like I said, you’re not the sharpest tool in the shed. Unlike those “examples” you used, churches don’t take government money.
“OH, and be a man (assuming you are). don’t hide behind Kyle or use Kyle to threaten me.’
Don’t have to ma’am, he already threatened you.
paleo-neo-Carlinst
September 2nd, 2010
9:36 am
GF, A – they mooch off the city, state and federal government (consume public services as stated; police, fire, roads,. in addition, they do not pay sales tax on the goods and services they purchase in the private secotr). you can assign some divine or “godly” aspect, but churches are corporations, period. they’re “selling” salvation, as opposed to soft drinks or razor blades, but they are businesses. they take in revenue, have operational budgets and employees. Joel Osteen or Crefalo Dollar or that wife-swapper in Decatur are de facto CEOs or small businesses, period.
B – so, I’m gonna cut you some slack on the “godly people” position. Ted Haggard, Earl Paulk, Jim Bakker, any number of Roman Catholic priests, Jimmy Swaggart, Creflo Dollar… but I will concede there are many generous, compassionate, salt of the earth people who attend church. so what? Home Depot sent loads of material and volunteers to New Orleans/the Gulf coast after Katrina. the fact that a person CHOOSES to volunteer his/her time or money for one cause or another is, as I said a personal choice. taxes are not a personal choice.
Intown
September 2nd, 2010
9:42 am
So what would you do about the massive tax breaks for the entertainment industry in Georgia?
paleo-neo-Carlinst
September 2nd, 2010
9:53 am
Intown, and you can add professional sports to he “entertainment” mix. anyone familiar with the Yankee Stadium mess? the original Yankee Stadium was built/rennovated with taxpayer money. Like most cities, NYC provided all types of incentives/tax breaks to the Yankees. the new stadium was financed both private and public funds, but when the old stadium was demolished the Yankees “auctioned” off everything from seats, to lockers, to dirt from the infield. I think the total net was over $10 million (and counting). Whose money is that? Closer to home, anyone see “The Blind Side”? a couple years ago they shot many scenes in Atlanta. there were APD vehicles (police, fire, etc.) used, and APD closed certain roads for hours. now, if the producers paid for the use of these goods and services, so be it, but my guess is, they did not.
Metro Coach
September 2nd, 2010
10:10 am
Road, for those union members who work for GM and all the other bailed out auto companies, the taxpayers are paying for their pensions. The unions negotiated salaries that were more than their work was worth, which is why those car companies were about to go bankrupt in the first place. Thats why non union companies like Toyota, sespite government witch hunts, are still turning profits and GM is 60% owned by taxpayers.
Figure Skater
September 2nd, 2010
10:20 am
Broadening and flatting the tax base is a great idea. The key will be transition period