More businesses ought to ‘tax-plain’ themselves
Call it a “tax-planation” — spelling out for your customers why the government has forced you to increase what you charge them. From a Wall Street Journal article:
In New York, the sale of whole bagels isn’t subject to sales tax. But the tax does apply to “sliced or prepared bagels (with cream cheese or other toppings),” according to the state Department of Taxation and Finance. And if the bagel is eaten in the store, even if it’s never been touched by a knife, it’s also taxed.
That was news to one New York bagel-store owner, who found out he was out of compliance with the policy this summer when the state audited his company.
Kenneth Greene, the owner of 33 Bruegger’s Bagel franchises throughout New York, says the state demanded that he start charging taxes on all bagels, except for those that remain intact and are consumed off premises, and forced him to pay a “significant” sum in taxes that the state estimated he owed.
Mr. Greene says the extra charge, about eight cents a bagel, depending on the local rate, filled his customers with boiling rage. “They felt we were nickel-and-diming them. They thought we were charging them to slice a bagel,” he said.
To clear things up, he posted signs at the cashier informing customers that it was Albany, not Bruegger’s, to blame. “We apologize for this change and share in your frustration on this additional tax,” the signs read.
When I lived in Europe, I always felt that one of the only reasons governments there could get away with value-added taxes (VATs) of 20 percent or more on retail purchases was that the tax was — by law, as I understand it — baked into the price listed on the price tag. When I moved back, it was jarring at first to have 8 percent tacked onto the price of a good at the cash register, even though I knew the sales tax in Atlanta was smaller than the VAT I was charged in Brussels.
Government imposes all sorts of direct and indirect taxes that are passed on almost invisibly to the price of goods. For example, requirements that certain waste doesn’t go into a landfill may result in a “disposal fee” buried in the fine print of your bill for a certain repair or installation service.
We’d be a lot more aware of how much “nickel-and-diming” government does to us every day if more businesses would follow Kenneth Greene’s example.
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87 comments Add your comment
Horrible Horace
August 24th, 2010
10:48 am
Well lets not hold our breath awaiting Ayetollah Obama to address such issues.
Thurston B. Howell III
August 24th, 2010
11:03 am
Only the little people pay taxes
left wing
August 24th, 2010
11:08 am
Actually Kyle, I was just reading this article, also in the Wall Street Journal discussing how corporations do whatever they can to maximize their profits, even if it’s against the public interest:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703338004575230112664504890.html
And I’ve been waiting for you to post an economic-related blog, because I have an economic question for you; As I understand supply side economics, the contention is that they don’t like government programs like ARRA (the stimulus plan) because it would ‘crowd out’ private sector consumption. The problem, as I see it, is that we just went from a $16 Trillion dollar economy to a $15 Trillion dollar economy. The stimulus was $787 Billion, essentially over 2 years (capital investment project take longer, but we’ve also had things like unemployment extentions added in); let’s call it $400 Billion.
So, we’ve lost $1 Trillion and the government is replacing it with $400 Billion. Seems to me like there is underconsumption of $600 Billion. Care to comment?
barking frog
August 24th, 2010
11:10 am
All tax should be broken out of pricing on all goods,
as you say making the consumer aware is the only
way to change.
F. Sinkwich
August 24th, 2010
11:10 am
How about eliminating withholding? If citizens had to write a check to Uncle Sam every quarter, perhaps their eyes would finally open.
joe
August 24th, 2010
11:10 am
precisely why we need to abolish the income tax and IRS and go to the fair tax…let’s see how long it takes for some idiot to post “squirrel” after this (what the heck does that mean anyway==stupid).
Paul
August 24th, 2010
11:11 am
Used to see a sticker on gasoline pumps listing fed gas tax and state gas tax. No more. I recall a station owner in Calif telling me it became illegal.
Dave
August 24th, 2010
11:12 am
Just another example of how the current tax code (federal and local) just doesn’t make any sense…and why we need to overhaul the whole system (flat tax, fair tax, etc.) No tax on a whole bagel, but tax on a cut/served one? What genious politician came up with that one? Probably the result of some deal with some special interest/lobbying group…which is how most of the current tax code was created.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
11:19 am
joe @ 11:10 – I don’t like the IRS any more than you do. If you printed the tax code, it would wipe out a forrest. However, the “fair tax” is a really bad idea, and here’s why:
1. You shift the tax burden in this country from rich people (think Neil Bortz) to lower income people (think us).
2. The numbers don’t work and here’s why:
What I’ve heard is a 25% sales tax, so I’ll use that. The US economy is currently $15 Trillion, and the budget is about $3.7 Trillion so, 25% of $15 Trillion would be about . . . . $3.7 Trillion? Gee, that sounds good. Except that the government (federal & state) won’t pay taxes. The states are about $2.3 Trillion combined, which means that governments collectively take $6 Trillion out of the equation. Now you’re only taxing $9 Trillion, which means the tax rate would really be over 40%.
So, really, you’re being scammed by this “fair tax” stuff.
The Aristocrat
August 24th, 2010
11:20 am
left wing –
It is not the government’s responsibility to disrupt the natural ebb and flow of the private sector. Private industry is run to be as profitable as its management is able. Handicapping free enterprise for “social good,” which is vague in its own right, is the WORST thing the government can do to stimulate the economy. If employers are no longer free to pursue wealth, there is no reason for them to create wealth or jobs.
Kyle Wingfield
August 24th, 2010
11:24 am
left-wing: Is that your argument for a $2 trillion stimulus? If so, you might want to check your numbers because you’ve overstated the drop in GDP by a factor of 2.
http://www.bea.gov/national/index.htm#gdp
left wing
August 24th, 2010
11:30 am
The Aristocrat @ 11:20 – I would disagree with the “disrupt the natural ebb and flow”, even in “normal times”, but right now, there is a trillion dollars of excess capacity in the system. There is no displacement of resources, there are resources which are unused and available.
It seems to me that the stimulus still left about $600 Billion of excess capacity, which we see, among other things, as 9.5% unemployment.
Jefferson
August 24th, 2010
11:33 am
Talk about nickle & dime, what about the “back door”? Power bills, phone bills, cable bills – so called “franchise” fees. Basically city and county taxes on these items in addition to the sales taxes already added on to these items. Some a flat amounts, some are percentages. I don’t see my local “conservatives” doing anything about it.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
11:40 am
Kyle @ 11:24 – nice link. And I accept the overstatement. However, I reiterate my earlier . . . . iteration. Isn’t the stimulus simply replacing that capacity which, due to economic decline, is would not be consumed by the private sector?
F. Sinkwich
August 24th, 2010
11:50 am
Please define “capacity.”
Thank you.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
11:56 am
F. Sinkwich @ 11:50 – I assume you’re addressing me. I define capacity as the net difference in the drop in GDP. I’m using it in the broadest term to refer to people (as reflected in unemployment), manufacturing capacity which has been idled by the great recession, et al.
retiredds
August 24th, 2010
11:56 am
That’s the problem with state taxation, it differs in every state and what is or is not taxed. I don’t think this is a federal problem but a “states rights” issue. Let’s face it as the Feds lowered taxes (for the top 1% of tax payers) the States have incrementally raised taxes so it’s a zero sum game.
joe
August 24th, 2010
12:00 pm
@ leftwing…scammed?? You are way out of whack…the government IS scamming us already with the wasted spending and bailouts. Adjust your liberal thinking cause it is doing you zero good.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
12:06 pm
@ Leftwing: Actually, under the fairtax, government entities WILL pay the fairtax. I’d suggest you read some of the literature on Fairtax.org and educate yourself before further comment. Any google search will yield the myriad economic studies proving the feasability of the plan and the effective tax rate necessary.
Additionally, the tax is progressive due to the prebate. A family will pay zero tax on the level of consumption required to maintain a family at the defined poverty level, and ony begins to tax on incremental consumption beyond that point. Note that US poverty defenitions are quite “rich” when compared with the majority of the world, or even compared with the US circa 50 years ago.
Lastly, business has no obligation to operate in “the public interest”. Please review the constitution and note that we are a democratic republic, and that individual rights have supremacy over “the public interest”, less we resort to mob rule.
Horrible Horace
August 24th, 2010
12:10 pm
I thought Imam Obama was gonna change everything, for the better. AH HAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
Obama gone in 2012!! YEA BABY!
wallbanger
August 24th, 2010
12:19 pm
Well, we in Dekalb are likely to have our property taxes raised significantly due to having Commissioners who are utterly clueless. With 17% of retail stores closed, and 25% of offices in Dekalb closed, the commissioners want to finance the building of an Atlantic Station type facility on the old GM plant lot. Why???? Don’t they get a clue. No one is buying anything, except us taxpayers who are forced to “buy” idiot choices made by those in control.
Jimmy62
August 24th, 2010
12:23 pm
left wing: Of course companies seek profit, sometimes at the expense of society, sometimes not. But the point is that they seek profit. We always know their motivations. We don’t have to wonder. It’s different when the government is making economic decisions. Are they doing it for electoral reasons? Are they doing it to help out unions, or to pay back industries that donated a lot of money? Are they doing it because some competitor to bagel shops has undue influence on some politician? The one thing we do know is that they rarely make a decision because it’s best for society at large. Even if they think that’s why they are doing it, there are always unforeseen negative results. Like pushing everyone to own a home helped lead to our current economic crisis.
Also, maybe if the government hadn’t taxed $3 trillion to come up with the $600 billion of the stimulus, then there would be more money still in the private sector to fulfill this demand you say is missing. It’s tough for me or for a company to spend money if the government has taken it already from successful businesses and is giving it out to failed companies like GM and to unions and such.
Find me the right winger or libertarian who is saying that for profit companies act for the good of society, and I will show you a moron. You might do better off debating if you actually understand the positions of the people you are debating against. Might I recommend you read The Road to Serfdom? Or Economics in One Lesson? Heck, even Adam Smith.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
12:26 pm
Overtaxed @ 12:06 – So, you think the government will pay taxes to . . . itself? If the budget is $3.7 Trillion, it’s going to pay itself $900 Billion in tax? Doesn’t that imply that, either we have a balanced budget and that percentage goes up, or we don’t, and the government has to pay itself $900 Billion? Not buyin it.
And it seems to me your statement equates businesses with individuals. I have a serious problem with that. I understand that the Supreme Court has equated them with respect to their ability to make campaign contributions. I simply think that’s a horrible decision.
Will
August 24th, 2010
12:30 pm
Kyle:
As a republican newspaper writer, you must have some influence with Nathan Deal.
PLEASE help to make him understand that his refusal to release income tax returns in hurting his standing with the “birthers” and other republicans.
Birthers claim that President Obama’s refusal to release his birth certificate is proof that he has something to hide. Nathan Deal says the President should provide evidence to prove that he does not.
At the same time, many believe that Deal’s refusal to release tax return info proves that he is hiding the fact that he has, indeed, greatly benefitted from unethical behavior.
PLEASE help him see the contridiction in his response to these two issues.
Dave
August 24th, 2010
12:31 pm
How about not taxing businesses at all? All they do is collect tax from their customers and remit it to various governments. Then we’d have a much clearer picture of what government costs us.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
12:36 pm
Jimmy62 @ 12:23 – It’s an explicit part of conservative dogma that markets ’self regulate’ which is why we supposedly don’t need government regulation. Of course corporations seek profit, even at the expense of society. Which is exactly why we need some entity (aka, the government) to protect us from them.
Do the rich, or corporations for that matter, get special laws created for them? Absolutely. No disagreement from me. Which is why we need to hold those politicians responsible. But I do believe that government, for all it’s beaurocracy, does work for the people, and that corporations work for their interests.
Hillbilly Deluxe
August 24th, 2010
12:38 pm
I’m opposed to a VAT for the very reason that it would be hidden and people would have no idea what they are paying. I’d also like to see all tax breaks done away with. There’s no telling how many dollars are involved in those and all they really do is shift the burden from one group to another. I’m for some sort of flat tax. Let us all know exactly what we are paying and let us all pay the same.
Linda
August 24th, 2010
1:09 pm
There’s only one state whose residents pay no state income tax, no state sales tax & no property tax. Residents actually receive checks from the state.
How? Energy dependence. If we were allowed to drill on American soil for our own natural resources, we would be well-supplied for the next thousand years, pay no more taxes, be debt-free & safe.
StJ
August 24th, 2010
1:24 pm
“government, for all it’s beaurocracy [sic], does work for the people”
Since when? The government wishes to give itself more power at the expense of the people, while claiming it needs all this power for the “benefit” of the people. See “health care reform” (aka another tax), “Patriot Act”, “immigration law” (as in failure to enforce), et. al.
I agree with Kyle – EVERY tax should be itemized on receipts whenever possible. It might jolt the clueless people into realizing what’s actually going on.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
1:25 pm
Linda
August 24th, 2010
1:09 pm
There’s only one state whose residents pay no state income tax, no state sales tax & no property tax. Residents actually receive checks from the state.
….and that one state (Alaska) gets 87% of its revenue from oil!! As soon as the oil revenue stream drops….watch that paradigm shift!! Plus…you only get the tax refund IF you’ve been a resident for 5 years…so you get nothing if you work there on a temporary contract!!
Jefferson
August 24th, 2010
1:25 pm
You can do it in GA, open casinos on Jekyl Island and there would be enough jack to eliminate sales taxes.
Ayn Rant
August 24th, 2010
1:51 pm
Kyle, in New York as in Georgia, groceries are exempt from sales tax, but takeaways and restaurants are not. To be fair, we should apply the sales tax to all transactions across the board, including groceries and medical services. Would that satisfy you?
VAT is different from a sales tax in that it is applied at every step of processing from the initial sale of the raw material to the final sale to the end-user. VAT has to be “baked” into the consumer price tag because the VAT worksheet might require several pages of computer printout.
VAT generates lots of revenue. It’s a far better way to tax businesses than an income tax on net profits. Big US corporations with smart lawyers and overseas locations get away with paying little or no income tax to the US. All businesses have to pay their rightful share in European countries with VAT.
VAT is also a subtle way to favor domestically-produced goods over imports, without violating international trade agreements. That’s why you don’t see a lot of China-made products in the Wal-Mart-like stores of Europe.
@@
August 24th, 2010
2:02 pm
Somebody needs to tell Mr. Greene there’s always a way to outsmart the politicians.
My suggestion would be disposable knives and condiment packages…more plastic.
In retaliation, the politicians in Albany would likely tax Mr. Greene for heating the buns.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
2:05 pm
@ lefwing: every business is comprised of a collection of individuals, each and every one of which is motivated primarily by profit. Each of those folks obligation to society is limited to “don’t violate their individual rights”. Beyond that, do whatever! Someone above said it: markets are self regulating. Some genious decides to make an “infant chaninsaw”? Decidedly not in the public’s best interest. Also not likely to be a big seller.
As for the Econ stuff, you clearly suffer from that same disease that most liberals suffer from: believing that government actually adds to the size of an economy. By definition, a government, reliant on tax revenues, is only capable of shrinking a free market economy. The only variable is how much harm is caused. Government spend in GDP is only a proxy. Actual GDP would be total consumption and savings, which is difficult to measure. Go read some Kotlikoff and get back to me.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
2:06 pm
Linda @ 1:09 – Alaska also receives by far the highest per capita amount of government funding of any state in the union. Second place isn’t even close.
JM
August 24th, 2010
2:06 pm
I too think U.S. tax code is unnecessarily complicated and should be overhauled, but do you think the accountants, lawyers, bankers and bureaucrats whose businesses rely on dealing with or circumventing the red tape will let that happen?
Jefferson
August 24th, 2010
2:06 pm
Groceries are taxes, just not at the same rate. Don’t forget your local self shaft taxes.
Jefferson
August 24th, 2010
2:07 pm
s/b Groceries are taxed, not taxes.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
2:08 pm
Overtaxed @ 2:05 – So, all that spending the government does for defense does not add to the size of the economy? Clearly you and I disagree.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
2:12 pm
And Overtaxed With regards to markets self regulating, Alan Greenspan, who used to be a big proponent of that, seems to have learned the error of his ways.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/24/business/economy/24panel.html
Horrible Horace
August 24th, 2010
2:16 pm
lw…agree somewhat. Greenspan was referring to his “misunderstanding” of derivatives as that is what brought down the economy. Look up Brooksley Barnes. She was the whistle-blower but was basically told to shut up by those in DC…Rep, Dem and The Fed.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
2:16 pm
@ left wing:
You’re right. Those trillions that are taxed would NEVER make it into the economy without the governement. Heck, if we just shown down the military, all of those jobs would be lost, and those tax dollars would be refunded, and the folks that actually earned those dollars in the first place would probably, I don’t know…just BURN the money!
You need an Econ lesson. Or three.
Horrible Horace
August 24th, 2010
2:18 pm
On the other hand. The Imam Obama has seen fit to pursue this drawdown. Hmmm…wonder where those fine fighting men/women will find jobs, should they elect to not re-enlist.
Perhaps staying in the military, for now, might be a better alternative.
CJ
August 24th, 2010
2:21 pm
“Actual GDP would be total consumption and savings,…”
That’s the great thing about freedom of speech. We can just make things up and pass it off as fact.
This gem from Overtaxed is a classic: “…markets are self regulating. Some genious [sic] decides to make an “infant chaninsaw”? Decidedly not in the public’s best interest. Also not likely to be a big seller.”
Hillbilly Deluxe
August 24th, 2010
2:27 pm
JM @ 2:06
You hit the bullseye. Those people write the laws, or influence the writing of them, and the laws benefit them.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
2:38 pm
Overtaxed So as I understand conservative economics, there are 2 schools; the supply side and the austrians.
The supply side I already covered above; deficit spending by the government to compensate for inadequate demand by the private sector, which is less than the gap in spending by the private sector.
The austrian side is crash & burn baby. Let businesses fail because they were meant to fail. Screw the people who get affected; it was probably their fault to begin with. So, the 2.5 million who got or maintained their jobs thru the stumulus, plus the 3 million who got to keep their jobs because GM & Chrysler didn’t go under would now be out of work. What’s another 5.5 million unemployed?
I’ve already pointed out in previous posts that Goldman Sachs and the Council of Economic Advisors have both said that stimulus added about 2.5% to GDP. Go look it up for yourself if you don’t believe me.
Go ahead and ignore facts. Why let them get in the way.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
2:50 pm
@ Leftwing: Yes, it added to GDP, in the form of less damage.
For example, the maximum welfare of the economy by whatever measurement is 100. Government taxation and inefficiency reduces total welfare to 85. Goverment taxation and inefficiency coupled with some borrowing increases total welfare to 88. There’s your increase. But still not optimal.
Austrian Economics, even Chicago, is close to correct, particularly when measured against the failed Keynesian folly.
By the way, I’d never truly advocate NO goverment or regulation, as self correcting market forces might move too slowly to save the damage done from, say, hundreds of millions of gallons of oil leaking into the water from some careless person with a big drill and no stopper.
@CJ: you caught me on the GDP definition. I’m making a point on how to accurately measure total economic welfare. And yes, you caught me spelling error. You’re a genius (genious). Here’s your gold star.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
2:51 pm
MY spelling error. Just in case. Have to cover your bases with these facists.
Sam
August 24th, 2010
3:00 pm
Left nuts are so hopelessly naive and gullible about about human action and and human nature. And painfully ignorant and misguided about money and economics and the proper role of a constitutionally limited government.
But left nut collectivists aint bringing the individual down with them. Grossly hypocritical left nuts can go F themselves and huddle with the sheep. Left nuts are gonna be on the outside looking in, before long.
Poor poor left nuts.
killerj
August 24th, 2010
3:01 pm
A scam is a scam,big gov out of control,rich people who supply Jobs are leaving the country and renouncing citizenship and your stock market is putting your investments into CHINA,your screwed. O-ne B-ig A-ss M-istake A-merica. Somebody needs to investigate Harvard.
Horrible Horace
August 24th, 2010
3:11 pm
Horrible Horace
August 24th, 2010
2:16 pm
Along with Tim Geither and Larry Summers who Greenspans cronies and now on The Imam Obamas economics advisory team…LOL.
Obama is stupid.
CJ
August 24th, 2010
3:13 pm
I’m still not clear on how liberals can reasonably be labeled as both socialists and fascists, two schools of thought (to put it kindly) on opposite ends of the political spectrum. But again, freedom of b.s. and all that.
I have to admit that I enjoyed the irony of seeing the word “genius” misspelled when, essentially, accusing somebody of stupidity.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
3:28 pm
How about Nazi’s? I’m quite sure they were socialists, and they were only a stone’s throw from being Facists. I’ll argue that Facism and Socialism are far closer together (and on the SAME side of the political spectrum) all day.
Read Liberal Facism. Its a little too “textbook boring” for my tastes, but still an interesting read.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
3:35 pm
Overtaxed The name Nazi may stand for National Socialists, but then again Kim Jung Il says they’re the Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea. There’s no truth in labeling.
I suggest you do some independent research, and stay away from political hacks like Johah Goldberg. Try and find something independently written and you’ll find that Facism is a right wing ideology who demogogue that anyone that disagrees with them are socialists and loves the concept of merging corporations with government, kinda like . . . . whoops, sorry. Didn’t mean to label you.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
3:42 pm
I know what the problem is. We need parents to better educate their children in Math and Economics. You can’t make this stuff up:
By DANIEL B. KLEIN (Wall Street Journal, 06/08/2010)
Who is better informed about the policy choices facing the country—liberals, conservatives or libertarians? According to a Zogby International survey that I write about in the May issue of Econ Journal Watch, the answer is unequivocal: The left flunks Econ 101.
Zogby researcher Zeljka Buturovic and I considered the 4,835 respondents’ (all American adults) answers to eight survey questions about basic economics. We also asked the respondents about their political leanings: progressive/very liberal; liberal; moderate; conservative; very conservative; and libertarian.
Rather than focusing on whether respondents answered a question correctly, we instead looked at whether they answered incorrectly. A response was counted as incorrect only if it was flatly unenlightened.
Consider one of the economic propositions in the December 2008 poll: “Restrictions on housing development make housing less affordable.” People were asked if they: 1) strongly agree; 2) somewhat agree; 3) somewhat disagree; 4) strongly disagree; 5) are not sure.
Basic economics acknowledges that whatever redeeming features a restriction may have, it increases the cost of production and exchange, making goods and services less affordable. There may be exceptions to the general case, but they would be atypical.
Therefore, we counted as incorrect responses of “somewhat disagree” and “strongly disagree.” This treatment gives leeway for those who think the question is ambiguous or half right and half wrong. They would likely answer “not sure,” which we do not count as incorrect.
In this case, percentage of conservatives answering incorrectly was 22.3%, very conservatives 17.6% and libertarians 15.7%. But the percentage of progressive/very liberals answering incorrectly was 67.6% and liberals 60.1%. The pattern was not an anomaly.
The other questions were: 1) Mandatory licensing of professional services increases the prices of those services (unenlightened answer: disagree). 2) Overall, the standard of living is higher today than it was 30 years ago (unenlightened answer: disagree). 3) Rent control leads to housing shortages (unenlightened answer: disagree). 4) A company with the largest market share is a monopoly (unenlightened answer: agree). 5) Third World workers working for American companies overseas are being exploited (unenlightened answer: agree). 6) Free trade leads to unemployment (unenlightened answer: agree). 7) Minimum wage laws raise unemployment (unenlightened answer: disagree).
How did the six ideological groups do overall? Here they are, best to worst, with an average number of incorrect responses from 0 to 8: Very conservative, 1.30; Libertarian, 1.38; Conservative, 1.67; Moderate, 3.67; Liberal, 4.69; Progressive/very liberal, 5.26.
Americans in the first three categories do reasonably well. But the left has trouble squaring economic thinking with their political psychology, morals and aesthetics.
To be sure, none of the eight questions specifically challenge the political sensibilities of conservatives and libertarians. Still, not all of the eight questions are tied directly to left-wing concerns about inequality and redistribution. In particular, the questions about mandatory licensing, the standard of living, the definition of monopoly, and free trade do not specifically challenge leftist sensibilities.
Yet on every question the left did much worse. On the monopoly question, the portion of progressive/very liberals answering incorrectly (31%) was more than twice that of conservatives (13%) and more than four times that of libertarians (7%). On the question about living standards, the portion of progressive/very liberals answering incorrectly (61%) was more than four times that of conservatives (13%) and almost three times that of libertarians (21%).
The survey also asked about party affiliation. Those responding Democratic averaged 4.59 incorrect answers. Republicans averaged 1.61 incorrect, and Libertarians 1.26 incorrect.
Adam Smith described political economy as “a branch of the science of a statesman or legislator.” Governmental power joined with wrongheadedness is something terrible, but all too common. Realizing that many of our leaders and their constituents are economically unenlightened sheds light on the troubles that surround us.
Mr. Klein is a professor of economics at George Mason University. This op-ed is based on an article published in the May 2010 issue of the journal he edits, Econ Journal Watch, a project sponsored by the American Institute for Economic Research. The article is at: http://econjwatch.org/articles/economic-enlightenment-in-relation-to-college-going-ideology-and-other-variables-a-zogby-survey-of-americans
CJ
August 24th, 2010
3:51 pm
“I’ll argue that Facism [sic] and Socialism are far closer together (and on the SAME side of the political spectrum) all day.”
When you’re finished reading “Liberal Fascism”, Overtaxed, might also enjoy these other Johah Goldberg titles: “The Flat Earth Society Handbook”, “Tomatoes are Vegetables and Other Politically Incorrect Truths”, “The Darwin Hoax”, and my personal favorite, “My S*#* Doesn’t Stink”.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
3:53 pm
The fact that you question whether or not Nazi’s were Socialists sums it up for me, and explains why you also can’t understand the concept that taxation hurts economic growth, and that government isn’t the solution to the vast majority of our problems.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
4:00 pm
Guess we’ll just have to settle for being smarter:
(just the 1st paragraph)ScienceDaily (Feb. 24, 2010) — More intelligent people are statistically significantly more likely to exhibit social values and religious and political preferences that are novel to the human species in evolutionary history. Specifically, liberalism and atheism, and for men (but not women), preference for sexual exclusivity correlate with higher intelligence, a new study finds.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
4:15 pm
We have a rebuttal readily available for that sceiencedaily article. Just read through most of these blogs and comments. And then try and conclude that Liberals are smarter.
CJ: how has my spelling been lately? Any typos to speak of? How about grammar? Any hanging chads?
Only a liberal can argue that we’ll all be better off if A) we all work…or at least those that feel like it, and then we B) give a significant portion of our earnings to the governement, then C) they will take care of any needs we haven’t met on our own, using our tax money they took, and D) they’ll take care of any of the folks that couldn’t or didn’t work. I can’t see how there could be any flaw in that plan. None at all.
CJ
August 24th, 2010
4:16 pm
Overtaxed: “You can’t make this stuff up…”
I was just looking at that asinine Daniel P. Klein study, and it turns out that it’s Klein’s answers that deserve scrutiny, not the liberals’ responses—
Klein’s survey, for example, asserts or implies that third world workers working for American companies overseas are generally not exploited, that free trade generally leads to higher employment, and that minimum wage laws generally always increase unemployment. Insisting that arguable, reasonable, or correct answers are wrong is a novel way to demonstrate that a certain class of citizens are uneducated. But then again, that’s the Wall Street Journal for you.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
4:16 pm
Question: What’s the definition of a liberal genius?
Answer: A liberal who can count all 50 states.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
4:16 pm
Question: How do you confuse a liberal?
Answer: You don’t, they are born that way.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
4:17 pm
Q:How many liberals does it take to change a light bulb?
A:None. Liberals wouldn’t actually change the light bulb, but they would show compassion for it by talking a lot about how terrible it is in the dark and more funding is needed to improve dim, 60 watt bulbs up to bright and productive 100 watt bulbs.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
4:24 pm
Overtaxed You posted an article from the really right wing WSJ about a poll featuring very right wing oriented questions, and you expect me to take it seriously? I was LMAO at you.
Some of the questions, like the one about rent control, are highly subjective (it’s a chicken-or-the-egg-thing). The rest are so biased that I queston why anyone would take it seriously.
I tried to take the high road and post something light. I should have realized that conservatives have no sense of humor.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
4:25 pm
CJ: See my 2nd joke. And please, puh-leeze! produce one economist that can argue with a straight face that minimum wage laws don’t produce higher unemployment.
p.s. Daniel B. Klein is a professor of economics at George Mason University and an Associate Fellow of the Swedish Ratio Institute.
Klein received his doctorate in economics from New York University in 1990. I’m sure he’s wrong though. He just needs to consult CJ down here in Atlanta. Look for him on one of those Bookman or Tucker blogs.
Overtaxed
August 24th, 2010
4:26 pm
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/MinimumWages.html
Here you go CJ. Put down the playstation and cheetos and go read.
left wing
August 24th, 2010
4:28 pm
Overtaxed We’ve had a period of the 3 things conservatives like you abhor; relatively high marginal tax rates, relatively high minimum wage and strong labor unions. They were perhaps the longest, strongest period of economic growth in this country. I’m talking about the period from 1947-1963.
CJ
August 24th, 2010
4:39 pm
Great stuff, Overtaxed. Even I had to laugh. I especially liked the one about liberal compassion. We sure know how to take it to extremes.
Speaking of extreme compassion, I have to leave now to attend my Nazi Party meeting–always an opportunity to have a good collective cry on behalf of the less fortunate (save, of course, the Jews, Africans, homosexuals, mentally disabled, physically disabled,…)
Linda
August 24th, 2010
4:45 pm
HDB @ 1:25, According to the Dept. of Energy in 2006, the US had proved oil reserves of 21.9 B barrels. New oil recovery using CO2 could add 89 B barrels to recoverable oil resources in the US, which would give us the 5th largest oil reserves in the world (119.9 B barrels). (Iraq has 115 B.)
The DOE also found that “multiple advances in technology & widespread sequestration of industrial carbon dioxide could eventually add as much as 430 B new barrels to the technically recoverable resource.”
Adding this other 430 B barrels to our 21.9 would made the US the largest oil-producing country in the world!!! (Saudi Arabia has 261 B barrels.).
http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/oilgas/eor/index.html
http://www.fossil.energy.gov/news/techlines/2006/06015-Oil_Recovery_Assessments_Released.html
We will never run out of oil!
josef nix
August 24th, 2010
5:09 pm
I just wanted to check in with our host during our exile from Jay’s. I’m afraid this is a topic that I really don’t know enough about to comment on.
Port O'John
August 24th, 2010
5:09 pm
Nice work Kyle. More left vrs. right name calling.
Partisanship is an IQ test, if you believe that either the GOP, Libertarian or Democractic parties care about anything except getting power, you failed the IQ test.
BADA BING
August 24th, 2010
5:11 pm
Over taxed……How many White men does it take to change a light bulb……..A. One.
BADA BING
August 24th, 2010
5:12 pm
Why did God make White people?…….A. Someone has to pay retail.
Intown
August 24th, 2010
5:23 pm
I always hear the VAT mentioned when misguided conservatives argue for the “flat tax” here in America. Here it is criticized. I dunno what to think except that Kyle hates muslims.
josef nix
August 24th, 2010
5:28 pm
BADA BING
That’s why did G-d create goyim!
BADA BING
August 24th, 2010
6:05 pm
josef….I could not use goyim, I didn’t even know how to spell it.
Streetracer
August 24th, 2010
6:24 pm
I know that I’m kind of late to this whole thing, but a few points.
Left wing:
1). Your analysis of the effect of a VAT is wrong simply because the money Governments spend already comes out of the economy. Changing to a VAT may effect individuals, but not the overall economy.
2). The problem with allowing intellectuals to define intelligence is that they define it to include themselves, and exclude those they don’t agree with.
3). I would venture to say that the economic exuberance of 47 to 63 was the result of the depression of the 30’s and WWII in spite of high taxes etc.
To those of you who think NAZI doesn’t mean “Socialist”, compare what Obama says with some of Hitler”s early speeches. Except for the “Nationalism” I don’t see much difference. In both cases the primary message is “you can’t take care of yourself, so you should elect me so I can make sure the government “meaning me” takes care of you”.
saywhat?
August 24th, 2010
6:47 pm
overtaxed- Q:How many Republicans does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: None. Republicans screw in men’s public restrooms.
Linda
August 24th, 2010
8:08 pm
saywhat @ 6:47, You are hurting your party.
md
August 24th, 2010
10:01 pm
Reading through this blog, it is apparent that some folks do not understand the WE are the corporations, and WE want them to do well, or WE all suffer.
“Gov’t” creates zero wealth……………..
Michael
August 24th, 2010
10:13 pm
I’d love to see this as well. Despite being opposed to something like the FairTax, I’m all for tax simplification. I really don’t get why now that I own a home I get credit for that on my income tax return. Wouldn’t people who couldn’t afford a home need a tax break more than people who can?
I also am REALLY opposed to localities offering tax breaks to big companies to locate in the vicinity. Again, why should some really big company get a tax break for moving in but a little bagel shop doesn’t get this treatment? It’s not the small biz owner’s fault that he isn’t the size of Kia.
I’ve got a relative who is buying land and thinking of putting a cow or something on it so he can consider it a farm for tax purposes. I know plenty of people who write off stuff for business even though it’s loosely business-related. We need to end this game of people finding loopholes in the system and simplify our tax laws. We can have a few different income tax brackets, a deduction for children, and keep sales taxes with one rate for food, another for other items. Imagine how much money people would save by not needing $60 tax software or accountants.
md
August 24th, 2010
10:59 pm
“I also am REALLY opposed to localities offering tax breaks to big companies to locate in the vicinity.”
So, is it better for the jobs generated to go elsewhere?? Mom and pop bagel won’t employ near as many as “kia”, it’s about economic impact, not favoritism.
TjAtl
August 25th, 2010
12:27 am
This is really, really easy, people: I am a manufacturer. I buy materials at wholesale price and don’t pay sales tax because I’m using it to make something. I make the product, then sell it to a retail store who also doesn’t pay sales tax. They charge sales tax to the final customer. If I happen to sell my own finished product to an end user, I have to collect sales tax and pay it to the jurisdiction having authority.
Someone must have had to define at what point the sale of a bagel ceases to be wholesale and becomes retail, and therefore subject to sales tax.
I fail to understand what is so newsworthy about this.
No More Progressives!
August 25th, 2010
6:45 am
left wing
August 24th, 2010
11:19 am
However, the “fair tax” is a really bad idea, and here’s why:
It’s disturbing that you would decry the Fair Tax without having read Boortz’s book on the subject, which is obvious.
It’s even more disturbing that you would argue that the fair tax can’t work, therefore we must keep the IRS and the incomprehendable 70,000 pages of tax code, simply because you say so.
The IRS’ own data show that about 50% of W-2 wage earners in this country don’t pay federal income taxes. The current code penalizes success (I know that upper income earners just infuriate the left).
Conversely, a huge share of the federal burden is borne by the upper 15% (or so) of wage earners. And the left is all about fair? Methinks not.
If the fair tax won’t work, as you claim, how do Florida and Texas survive?
Consumption (sales) tax, that’s how.
No More Progressives!
August 25th, 2010
6:50 am
To those of you who think NAZI doesn’t mean “Socialist”,
Good point, Streetracer.
Nazi is a contraction of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, the National Socialist German Workers’ Party.
Horrible Horace
August 25th, 2010
8:11 am
Agreed FairTax is an bad idea and it will not be fair. Would rather stick with the Devil I know.
VAT…? Forget that also.
No More Progressives!
August 25th, 2010
10:24 am
The only “fair” federal income tax would be
1) a one-page 1040 for everyone;
2) take you gross W2 earnings;
3) times a percentage (say, 10%).
No deductions, exemptions, loop-holes or other falderal.
You either overpayed or underpaid.
Simple. And fair.