Europe shows the result of total insistence on tolerance
The American people, having been put through endless sensitivity training over the past few decades, know offensiveness when they see it. And they see it in the mosque proposed for lower Manhattan.
So, yes, the American people are a bit stunned to find the fingers pointed at themselves when controversy erupts over a $100 million Islamic project just two blocks from where 10 terrorists brought down two 110-story towers in the name of Islam. They don’t find this turning of the sensitivity tables ironic, but outrageous.
They are more than irked to hear the speaker of the House of Representatives suggest that those Americans speaking out against the mosque should be investigated to see who’s bankrolling them, not least since the identities of the mosque’s donors are still being withheld.
They hear lofty talk about tolerance and upholding the First Amendment — or at least part of it — and they think, “The freedom to practice Islam in this country does not hinge on the specific placement of one mosque in downtown New York. That’s not what this is about.”
They find it hard to believe that reputedly moderate Muslims dedicated to “improving Muslim-West relations,” as the Cordoba Initiative group behind this project says it is, would be surprised to learn that Americans’ wound hasn’t scabbed over in nine divisive years. Or think that they can demonstrate good faith by tacking on a 9/11 memorial at the last minute.
In fact, if the Cordoba planners and their supporters understand anything about America in 2010, they will see a country that can’t seem to snap out of an economic downturn, that is underemployed and overextended, where an entire coastline stands to be covered in oil (until it isn’t), where the states are suing the feds over a health care law and the feds are suing a state over an immigration law and everyone is suing everyone else over gay marriage laws, where anti-war protesters are throwing pies in the faces of Democratic senators and flight attendants are cussing out their passengers and taking the emergency chute.
And they will think, maybe this is not the very best moment to gauge the national reserves of tolerance and patience.
The wiser heads among us will think about the ground zero mosque and that immigration law, and their thoughts will turn once again to that place that so often lately has been showing us the future consequences of our present actions: Europe.
They will recall that the political class’ general prescription for everyday Europeans’ misgivings about their substantial Muslim influx has been more insistence on tolerance, more multiculturalism and the dismissal of any concerns to the contrary from polite political conversation.
They will observe that the result in formerly tolerant places like Holland, where a filmmaker and a politician critical of Islam and immigrants were assassinated, and Belgium, where certain immigrant-heavy areas of the capital Brussels and the port city Antwerp are virtual no-go zones for people who look European, has been a spike in the popularity and electoral success of openly anti-immigrant, anti-Islam political parties.
They will note that the failure of political leaders in these countries, and in places like Denmark, Switzerland and even Britain, to deal seriously with popular complaints about the other has not ended the complaints but made them louder and uglier.
And they will conclude that even in America, with a prouder history of assimilation and inclusiveness than Europe has, it would be prudent to meet this outrage with something other than finger-wagging.
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508 comments Add your comment
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
10:14 am
“Since when is defending the minority from an angry mob an act of marginalization against the mob?”
Poor bed wetter.
Dirty Dawg
August 19th, 2010
10:14 am
Yeah, those Europeans man, they just don’t get it…then again since every single one of them enjoys a better, top to bottom, standard of living than we do, and since they are in a better position to recall the last time one of their ‘members’ decided that ‘in’ tolerance was a better way to go – you remember, that bunch in Germany, they didn’t tolerate anybody that wasn’t of ‘one of them’ , and look how well that turned out for ‘em…my guess is that they’ll stick to ‘tolerance’ and working to solve their problems rather than violence and hate.
You can say what you want about Liberalism…but if being 180 degrees opposite of a Rush Limbaugh, or a Newt Gingrish (I don’t give a s**t if that’s spelled right or not), or a Bill O’Reilly, or virtually every Republican political leader in existence, means I’m a Liberal, then you’re damn right I am. Plus, I don’t think the majority of this country wants to be seen as a bunch of intolerant boobs that only seem to know hate and prejudice.
Tell me, as a member of the radical base of the Republican Party, how does one get to the point that they’re so willing to carry out the ‘dirty tricks’ strategies of a bunch of greedy billionaires that they’ll even vote against their own self interests?
Richard Wood Johnson
August 19th, 2010
10:16 am
Mr. Forks, I am not interested in what previous Administrations have done. I wish that you would tell us more about your own vision of a final solution for the muslim problem here and now.
Bosch
August 19th, 2010
10:17 am
Kyle,
“In Europe, such marginalization has pushed normally moderate people toward extremist parties.”
So, why would we want to try and do that here? Gingrich and Palin are not doing any one any favors by continuing to stir up fear and prejudice which accomplishes just what you’ve written against.
“Zoning restrictions and NIMBY concerns (e.g., about parking or noise) often come into play”
Well yes, of course, but that is not the case here at all. There is already an operating mosque near the site (if I’m not mistaken) and the developers are in compliance.
Again, as many have mentioned, to use the situation in some European countries as a reason for promoting religious intolerance here is flawed logic.
BS Aplenty
August 19th, 2010
10:18 am
I completely agree that the mosque location is inappropriate and ill-advised. Ultimately, this sounds like a zoning issue and an immigration issue. Solve the immigration issues that the Obama administration, along with Reid/Pelosi, have mishandled and this particular issue would revert to a local zoning issue.
Solve the real problem.
ButtHead
August 19th, 2010
10:19 am
Funny how the tolerant, peace loving Muslim developer has been offered a larger piece of land, and they won’t even meet with the governor to talk about it. How much more tolerant and peace loving can you get…right lefties? Here is is in the left wing rag…
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Mosque-Developer-Says-No-Meeting-Scheduled-With-Gov-100967889.html
Jimmy62
August 19th, 2010
10:26 am
I think it’s legitimate and not necessarily bigoted to ask that this particular community center/mosque not be built by ground zero.
However, it seems there are now protests at random mosques around the country and that’s simply wrong, disgusting, and bigoted. Why are we showering hatred on random Muslims in Tennessee who haven’t done anything and have nothing to do with 9/11 or ground zero? This is a bad sign, and I hope conservatives and libertarians reject such nonsense.
saywhat?
August 19th, 2010
10:27 am
Kyle wrote ” And with few exceptions, the supporters of the mosque project — I’m not talking about the developers themselves, but politicians and pundits and citizens — have sought to marginalize and delegitimize mosque opponents as bigots or opponents of the Constitution.”
Kyle could just as easily written ” And with few exceptions, the opponents of the mosque project — the politicians and pundits and citizens — have sought to marginalize and delegitimize mosque supporters as terrorists and something other than American citizens.”
Kyle, if not bigots, what DO you call people who imply that a group of Amercan citizens are terrorists based solely on their religious beliefs? Are we not allowed to defend our fellow Americans when we see them unfairly attacked?
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
10:27 am
“I am not interested in what previous Administrations have done. I wish that you would tell us more about your own vision of a final solution for the muslim problem here and now.”
You should be.
As for my vision, I don’t have a vision for muslims.
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
10:28 am
“Gingrich and Palin are not doing any one any favors by continuing to stir up fear and prejudice which accomplishes just what you’ve written against.’
Gotta love it when the left wing retards have to bring up Palin as if she had anything to do with muslims killing 3000 people on 911.
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
10:29 am
“Kyle, if not bigots, what DO you call people who imply that a group of Amercan citizens are terrorists based solely on their religious beliefs?”
Are you talking about Cynthia Tucker?
“Are we not allowed to defend our fellow Americans when we see them unfairly attacked?”
Were the 911 victims unfairly attacked?
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
10:30 am
“However, it seems there are now protests at random mosques around the country and that’s simply wrong, disgusting, and bigoted.”
But muslims killing christians, blowing up churches etc in other countries is ok with you?
HDB
August 19th, 2010
10:31 am
“Funny how the tolerant, peace loving Muslim developer has been offered a larger piece of land, and they won’t even meet with the governor to talk about it. How much more tolerant and peace loving can you get…right lefties?”
When you’ve been slammed, denigrated, castigated by millions…and backed into a corner, do you expect surrender….or do you expect a fight to the finish?? Back a rat into a corner….
People are being backed into a corner….and intolerance rears its ugly head!! If a right is denied for one…it’s denied for ALL!!
Bosch
August 19th, 2010
10:32 am
Jimmy 62,
But isn’t there already a mosque close to where they are building? This is nothing but political posturing from the right using their typical scare tactics in an election year.
“Why are we showering hatred on random Muslims in Tennessee who haven’t done anything and have nothing to do with 9/11 or ground zero?”
Million dollar question, huh? I dunno, when you release the Gingrich/Palins on the world it’s hard to get their bs back in the bottle.
Jimmy62
August 19th, 2010
10:34 am
Grand Forks: Last I checked, Tennessee isn’t in another country. Not sure what the heck you’re talking about, but it doesn’t seem relevant to protests at a mosque in Tennessee.
There are Christians that kill people in other parts of the world, are you going to protest the building of a Church in Texas because of that?
saywhat?
August 19th, 2010
10:44 am
If Miss Forks has no vision for Muslims, why does she care where they build their community center?
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
10:58 am
Gingrich and Palin are not doing any one any favors by continuing to stir up fear and prejudice which accomplishes just what you’ve written against.’
Gotta love it when the Grand Forks retards have to bring up Palin as if she had anything to do with muslims killing 3000 people on 911.
Kristen
August 19th, 2010
11:03 am
Butthead@10:10, I know what the majority of the 3,000 think–they are opposed. I know of one family member (Muslim) who is also opposed, yet the left is not playing the islamophobe card against her. She wrote a piece in the Washington Post. Her name is Neda Bolourchi.
What I find strange is that the lamestream media hasn’t gone to as much trouble to seek out their opinions as they have other’s. It’s almost as though they don’t want to know since it might defeat their argument in favor of racism.
I’m sorry I mentioned it. Have a nice day.
AmVet
August 19th, 2010
11:08 am
The masturbater of misinformation mewls: The KKK was started by the democrat party, retard, not Christians.
The historical fact:?
The Klan was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee by veterans of the Confederate Army.
/drive by/
HDB
August 19th, 2010
11:17 am
Kristen August 19th, 2010
11:03 am
Having read the article you referenced, there two parts are the more effective points she makes:
1) “That is why the prospect of a mosque near Ground Zero — or a church or a synagogue or ANY religious or nationalistic monument or symbol — troubles me.”
2) “Islam was part of our heritage, our culture, our entire lives. Though I have nothing but contempt for the fanaticism that propelled the terrorists to carry out their murderous attacks on Sept. 11, I still have great respect for the faith.”
She still has respect for her faith….even though many Americans do NOT…and she’s against ANY religious monument near Ground Zero; in that aspect, her points are non-discriminatory…and cogent!!
The problem is that the preponderance of American opinion is based in discrimination; that’s what needs to be called out!!
RW-(the original)
August 19th, 2010
11:26 am
We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation
New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques so it’s not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as “Fitna,” meaning “mischief-making” that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.
The Koran commands Muslims to, “Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book” — i.e., Jews and Christians. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of “fitna”
Also a drive by….bye!
stands for decibels
August 19th, 2010
11:31 am
The particular concern in this case may not end up prevailing. But for some of you to suggest that they shouldn’t be raised in the first place, or that the fact that they’ve been raised proves some people are pure bigots, is ludicrous.
Mr. Wingfield, it is kind of hard to square this objection with what you’ve written in the post, to wit:
in America, with a prouder history of assimilation and inclusiveness than Europe has, it would be prudent to meet this outrage with something other than finger-wagging.
I find it difficult to read that sentence without concluding that you believe this community center’s construction constitutes an “outrage,” of a piece with the assassinations and “no go zones” you cite in the paragraph directly above.
If you are, then it is hard to conclude that you are doing out out of not mere NIMBYism but, yes, bigotry. And it saddens me to say that, because I truly do think much better of you, based on what I’ve seen of your contributions to the AJC.
stands for decibels
August 19th, 2010
11:33 am
If Miss Forks has no vision for Muslims, why does she care where they build their community center?
You can’t visualize what you’ve already had ethnically cleansed.
Jefferson
August 19th, 2010
11:33 am
Can I get a state’s rights fan ??
pat
August 19th, 2010
12:07 pm
I have spent lots of time in Europe, the one thing Europeans are not is tolerant. They hate everyone not like themselves, be other Europeans or others periods.
ButtHead
August 19th, 2010
12:14 pm
HDB, time for a history lesson, the Roman’s took the tolerance of the early Christians as a weakness and fed them to wild animals for entertainment. Don’t mistake intolerance and immorality.
HDB what do peace loving Muslim’s do when they win a battle, they build a Mosque on the site. If you want to be food that is up to you, I for one will never mistake intolerance for immorality.
One more thing go look up Dhimmitude, loser…
barking frog
August 19th, 2010
12:15 pm
Jefferson 11:33 ceiling, window, or floor?
@@
August 19th, 2010
12:17 pm
Zoning restrictions and NIMBY concerns (e.g., about parking or noise) often come into play.
Kyle:
As I’ve mentioned, if not here, elsewhere…I’m guilty of NIMBYISM when it came to a church in my neighborhood, and I attend church regularly. Normally such an admission would garner rousing applause from leftists who oppose ANY religion. The left-wingers chose to ignore it.
Sometimes it IS about parking, noise, traffic congestion and the like.
I can’t see the aforementioned church from my location but the adjacent neighbors (black) could, and needed my experience in zoning to address the situation. Since I cared about my neighbors, I went to bat for them.
I’ll also add the the church in my neighborhood has yet to comply with the stipulations set out when they received approval. Not only have they not complied, they’re in clear violation of restrictions placed upon them.
Probably just a matter of time before the neighbors call asking for my help again. There’s not much I wouldn’t do on behalf of my neighbors. It’s a matter of give and take…right now the congregation has taken far too many liberties with what they were given. Never be fooled into thinking that all places of worship make for good neighbors.
JackLeg
August 19th, 2010
12:17 pm
Any “religion” that preaches death to no-believers\infidels is not a religion but a gang….
AmVet
August 19th, 2010
12:20 pm
pat, are you sure that your experience was not just a “birds of a feather” kind?
Mine was the polar opposite. Both as a serviceman and civilian.
I guess you find what you are looking for…
Dusty
August 19th, 2010
12:24 pm
As I understand it, Muslims do not yet have enough funds to build the NYC cultural center/mosque. Perhaps in a great show of compassion which they claim to possess, why not send all the funds for an unwanted center to PAKISTAN?
Right now, the greatest suffering by the largest number of people in the world is occuring in Pakistan. That would be the greatest show of compassion ever shown by American Muslims, especially those who are usually well off in the USA. All Americans would soon see the real “heart” of Muslims and would join in giving.
But, whomever you are or whatever you believe, human beings in Pakistan are standing and dying in spreading flood waters. Send help in any way you can, usually donations of money. Pick carefully your organization such as Red Cross and others. But send help!! Men, women & children are dying right now, engulfed or fleeing catastrophic flood waters throughout Pakistan. Who cares about their religion? Reach out! They suffer and die just like us.
@@
August 19th, 2010
12:25 pm
AmVet:
Mine was the polar opposite. Both as a serviceman and civilian.
If you behaved there like you behave here, it’s understandable why you and they would get along so well.
My daughter said the same thing about Europe. Only place she found the people likeable was Scotland.
Dusty
August 19th, 2010
12:42 pm
@@
Cheers for the Scots! My great great Scot gandpappy graduated from the University of Edinburg. (I like to mention my successful ancestors!)
But actually, I had a most enjoyable trip to London and Stratford-on-Avon and thought the British were most hospitable. Seeing the chopping block for the heads of some of their former queens was a bit discouraging but that was old history. .Thank goodness!! I like Eliz II. And Churchill will always be my favorite Prime Minister. He knew how to put up a fight when needed. Yes, sir!!!
Jammin
August 19th, 2010
12:43 pm
I just wonder what would happen if a christian wanted to build a church in Saudia Arabia or Iran. I wonder if it would be acceptable to build a christian church anywhere in those countries, let alone next to a site like ground zero. It’s hard to tolerate when there is an obvious hypocrisy. Yeah America is free so anybody can come here and do what they want, but not vice a versa. We are the worlds playground and our politicians do nothing but pander to whichever group will vote for them. Nothing but votes matter to them, not what is right.
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
12:50 pm
“Last I checked, Tennessee isn’t in another country. Not sure what the heck you’re talking about, but it doesn’t seem relevant to protests at a mosque in Tennessee.’
Never said TN wasn’t in another country, ma’am. You don’t know what I’m talking about because you have the IQ of a carrot.
“There are Christians that kill people in other parts of the world, are you going to protest the building of a Church in Texas because of that?’
Where, ma’am? Do you always make stuff up?
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
12:51 pm
“If Miss Forks has no vision for Muslims, why does she care where they build their community center?”
Because muslims building a hateful mosque near a place where their religion killed 3000 people bothers me and most of America, ma’am.
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
12:53 pm
“The masturbater of misinformation mewls: The KKK was started by the democrat party, retard, not Christians.’
I knew it would not take long for the draft dodging Kookman troll to contradict herself.
“The historical fact:?
The Klan was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee by veterans of the Confederate Army.”
Do you always make up stuff, ScamVet?
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
12:54 pm
“The problem is that the preponderance of American opinion is based in discrimination; that’s what needs to be called out!!”
HDB is our resident Sharpton.
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
12:55 pm
“If you behaved there like you behave here, it’s understandable why you and they would get along so well.”
You gotta love ScamVet, @@. Yesterday she was oh so tolerant of Kumar the muslim, and today she goes on a rampage because of what I wrote about the KKK.
ScamVet can’t except the fact that the KKK was founded by democrats.
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
12:57 pm
“I just wonder what would happen if a christian wanted to build a church in Saudia Arabia or Iran.’
First, Obama Hussein would be condemning the church, next he would call for Saudia Arabia to kill the Christians. Left wing retards like Bookman and Tucker would also condemn the Christians.
What left wingers don’t seem to understand, because most of them get degrees in retarded fields like poetry, is that muslims hate gays, women etc…
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
12:58 pm
“You can’t visualize what you’ve already had ethnically cleansed.”
Are we now talking about Africa?
stands for decibels
August 19th, 2010
1:06 pm
Are we now talking about Africa?
No. We are talking about this place where the term “ethnic cleansing” was first used. You are, apparently, an expert in foreign policy so I won’t have to tell you where that was, nor will I need to remind you of the religious beliefs of those who were “cleansed.”
HDB
August 19th, 2010
1:28 pm
Grand Forks
August 19th, 2010
12:54 pm
“The problem is that the preponderance of American opinion is based in discrimination; that’s what needs to be called out!!”
HDB is our resident Sharpton.
Not quite….don’t have his hair stylist!!
ButtHead August 19th, 2010
12:14 pm
“HDB, time for a history lesson, the Roman’s took the tolerance of the early Christians as a weakness and fed them to wild animals for entertainment. Don’t mistake intolerance and immorality.
HDB what do peace loving Muslim’s do when they win a battle, they build a Mosque on the site. If you want to be food that is up to you, I for one will never mistake intolerance for immorality.”
I think this part of history is more appropriate: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”
Building a mosque on private property that is properly zoned and approved by proper authorities can NOT be prohibited!! I have a greater trust in the Constitution and the strength of Americans doing the right thing rather than the animus that is evident now!! Having taken the oath to preserve, protect, and defend….I’d be one of the FIRST to fight against enemies…foreign AND domestic….but I’d also defend the right for anyone to practice their religion WHEREVER they desire!! THAT should be the guiding principle here!!
Amvet
August 19th, 2010
1:31 pm
I remember a time in Italy. I was on a train and there was a group of Americans from New Jersey aboard. This one woman was especially loud, obnoxious and rude. I just laughed and thought, her kids probably can’t stand her either!
No worries, it’s not like you cons invented the Ugly American. You’ve just perfected it!
And I’m not surprised that most of you have never been there. It would be as lost on you as a visit to the Creation Museum in Kentucky would be on me!
For the revisionists…
google.com/search?q=history+of+the+kkk&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=TY9&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=v&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=9GhtTLmzLYXGlQeUr5CpDg&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=12&ved=0CEMQ5wIwCw
Bosch
August 19th, 2010
1:37 pm
AmVet,
I think a field trip to that museum would be a hoot!
problem solved
August 19th, 2010
1:45 pm
Between Osama and Bush, who harmed America more?
No contest – the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/ Wolfowitz cowards did.
Bush killed more soldiers than Osama killed New Yorkers.
The last of our combat troops left Iraq last night seven years after the phony pilot pretended to land a jet on a carrier and proclaimed mission accomplished.
stands for decibels
August 19th, 2010
1:45 pm
This guy certainly puts the Goober in gubernatorial.
Republican gubernatorial candidate Carl Paladino is airing an ad in which he claims that he would “use the power of eminent domain to stop the mosque.”
Bosch
August 19th, 2010
1:58 pm
sfd,
Well, the goob obviously doesn’t understand how emiment domain works apparently.
Bosch
August 19th, 2010
2:00 pm
sfd,
Wow, and some of those comments below make our bigots here look like little poodles.
BigDickCheney
August 19th, 2010
2:09 pm
Hey did someone call for a draft dodger?