[...] and Truth — The New YorkerA chilling effect on CIA agents? — L.A. Times opinionProbe shows 9/11 is, sadly, forgotten — AJC opinionEditorial: Tortured lessons on CIA abuses — Dallas News editorial [...]
Just because we don’t talk about 911 daily doesn’t mean we’ve forgotten. There’s only 24 hours in a day. How many historical events should we be talking about every day in addition to our work, family and personal events?? Come on….
9/11 has not been forgotten. Neither have the Geneva Conventions, the Nuremberg Trials, or the military codes of conduct.
Torture cannot be condoned. Ever.
Those of us who lost loved ones on 9/11 and have family members fighting in the resulting war in Iraq & now Afghanistan cannot forget. I miss those who have died and I live in fear that those in Iraq & Afghanistan will soon join them. I had hope that Obama would end the war in Iraq as promised & would not wage another war but he lied & has done neither. The madness continues as Obama blames others & he has the power to bring our troops home & does nothing. He is using the military to make himself look tough on terrorism but is doing little to give them the support & equipment they need. Ask any family who has to send blankets & food to their loved ones in Iraq/Afghanistan because they have been on 1 ration a day for weeks. Shame on us all for forgetting the terrorist attacks before 9/11 & that horrible day itself but more so shame on us all & specifically our government for risking the lives of our military but ignoring their basic needs. I love this country but I hate our government.
I invite you all to watch documentaries such as “Ghosts of Abu Ghraib” and other related films. Innumerable prisoners who were later tried “not guilty” were thoroughly tortured in a multitude of ways. “So? It makes our country safer!”
Try flipping the script. Imagine a military of another nation prescribing such acts of torture… on YOU. Or your son or daughter. And you know for a fact they/you are innocent. And they induce the never-ending pain until you succumb and even fabricate information just to make the horror stop.
9/11 is clearly an egregious act performed by few.
If there is solid–VERY SOLID–evidence for an inmate’s knowledge of potentially serious threats, I would support the idea of torture for him/her in particular. However, the government took it too far and injected xenophobia and anger/fear in their operations.
The triumphant resilience and precautions espoused by 9/11 should continue to influence our mindsets, lifestyles and memory, but it does not necessitate MANY of the tortures that have happened in our recent past.
Again, just imagine you (innocent) being the target.
Let’s focus less on the headline and more on the issue I was trying to address: That these CIA agents might face prosecution for doing what the nation essentially asked of them at the time (prevent another attack at all costs), and it’s because we’re judging them with a different perspective than they could have had at the time.
AMB: That’s a perfectly reasonable opinion, even if I would argue that in a handful of circumstances it carries significant risks.
Wesley Au-Yeung: The CIA inspector general’s report makes clear that the inmates in question — i.e. not those at Abu Ghraib, unless they’re mentioned in the (many) redacted sections — were believed to have the kind of knowledge you’re talking about. It also makes clear that this kind of treatment was the exception, not the norm.
If people can pretend there’s a God I can pretend that crap didn’t nothing because there was nothing to stop. Same a-holes that ignored memos and flight schools. Fool me once with these suits in DC.
I will never forget 911. I remember where I was, and the chill that went through me when I was told, we were being attacked. That was the most horrifing ordeal I have lived to see thus far. However, that does not give us the right to break international laws. If I lose my job, and my babies are starving, we have no electricity, water, or gas, I don’t believe the judge will find me “not guilty” for armed robbery. He will not look at my circumstances and say I was justified. The judge will find me guilty, and send me to prison. With that said, my heart goes out to the agents for their sacrifice, but as I have heard so often said, “Do the crime do the time”.
I don’t believe anything more than perhaps a couple of low level prosecutions will ever come of this. It’s basically a smoke screen to distract us from our current problems. They’re using this to take the heat off our domestic problems. While we argue about this we don’t have our eye on the ball. It’s an old political trick.
I do feel sorry for whoever the sacrificial lambs will be.
Those who caused it are dead.
Those who planned it — should beware.
If the airlines had locks on the cockpit doors, like they knew they should — there would have been fewer deaths. 20-20 hindsight.
Why did the gov’t pay off the families ? Guilt ? Fear of litigation.
As a person who grew up in a military town with a father who was a research scientist on a military base I’m really torn about the issue of torture. I have great respect for our members of the military and believe in a strong defense. I’m sure my views are greatly influenced by growing up with military brats and running around on an army base all the time. However, the use of waterboarding against U.S. soldiers by the Japanese during WWI was considered torture and a war crime. If that technique was considered torture 50 years ago why isn’t it now? Because WE are the ones doing it to others? If waterboarding was or would now be considered torture if used against OUR soldiers then I have a really hard time justifying its use against foreign combatants or soldiers.
I do not think that the CIA officers should be prosecuted. I know that it is considered an excuse to carry out orders that one knows will result in a war crime, but my personal opinion is that carrying out orders should provide protection to those executing the order, but not those who either gave them or provided the basis for making the orders legal. Going after the CIA officers is akin to the soldiers at Abu Graib. Where is the accountability up the chain of command that authorized the use of EITs? Those are the people who should be held accountable…even if that means it was the former V.P. or President himself. Tough times and being the top dog does NOT make you above the law…even if you find lawyers who work for you to interpret or twist the law to say it means what you want it to in order to accomplish what you want. Simply stated for me the ends do not justify the means.
The criminalization of presidential policies, if the democrats continue down this road, it will only escalate in the future. When Obama’s time is done, his policies will be raked through by republicans, with the ensuing ‘criminal’ behavior and scapegoats. One may not agree with an individual president and his policies, but this is nonsense. Presidents have the right to enact policies. The next president can, and often should, say he disagrees, won’t continue, will abandon, whatever policy he chooses. But criminalizing policy just increases partisanship and keeps good people like lawyers, possible CIA agents, and others from working for the govt. Good luck unringing this bell.
Kyle may be touted as a “30 something conservative” but he demonstrates open contempt for the rule of law, the mindless sheep mentality that leads to “I was just following orders” and the heinous crimes committed under that guise are known from Nazi acts through the Viet Nam police action and extend to the CIA in Gitmo and Homeland Security Gestapo of today. An idiot with a basic supposition of “9/11 is forgotten” and is just following his own mouth music as conservatives are wont to do. Grow up and become responsible for self first then focus on the real damage torture does to our troops in the field and the quality of the “intelligence” gathered. I’ll bet he has a shrine to the Bush family on his desk…. Other attacks being imminent is as accurate as Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq and are another graphic example of conservative mindless sheep demonstrating that the blind really do follow the blind…
What we are doing now will set our intelligence gathering back twenty years. It’s reported that the CIA is currently in a holding pattern because the rules are being blurred, and if any of them are prosecuted, it will have chilling effect on all intelligence related areas.
The real question I have is why the flip flop from Obama on this subject. He has already stated he has no appetite for pursuing this, now suddenly he does.
As for torture, I fail to see how any of the things mentioned so far carry that lable. Threats are not torture. Hurting someone is torture.
I’ve always considered the enhanced techniques used by CIA to be useful so long as it was not (permanently) physically harmful to the detainee. If permanent physical harm is being alleged by some detainees then let the prosecution begin, but merely thinking you’re going to die isn’t sufficient grounds to claim torture. Ask any Navy SEAL candidate going through BUD/S training.
NetBanker,
The Japanese and Germans were guilty of far more heinous and clearly defined acts of torture than waterboarding. Starvation, summary execution by bayonet or beheading and medical experimentation were certainly confirmed practices. Waterboarding would be the least of many Japanese prisoners concerns and the water would have been welcome by U.S. prisoners on Bataan.
Activecitizen54: Are you seriously comparing a CIA officer firing a gun in another room — harming no one — to a Nazi soldier who killed people in gas chambers?
As for the quality of the intelligence gathered, read the report…the reasonable conclusion is that EITs were applied to an extremely limited number of people, and that they led to those handful of people being more cooperative. If you’d prefer that they kept that information to themselves at the risk of American lives, you’re entitled to that opinion. But nothing in the report supports the idea that these interrogation techniques were entirely superfluous.
As for whether attacks really were imminent, that’s my point: Those agents didn’t know at the time what we know now. And the IG’s report lists a number of terror plots that were uncovered through the interrogations.
I say allow the Muslims to take control of all the major cities in this country, esp. Washington, DC…and allow them to impose Sharia law for one month…by the letter. Then see how many of these liberals love ‘em. Of course with this bunch in control of this country, that could some day be a real possibility. Liberal Democrats would turn over the keys to the country if they were allowed to stay in power. Oh, Kyle, one comment on the passing of the “Lion of the Senate,” Ted Kennedy. Yea, he was the lion and we were his prey…as for his passing…lost as much sleep over it as when John Gotti died.
Billy Bob: “The Japanese and Germans were guilty of far more heinous and clearly defined acts of torture than waterboarding. Starvation, summary execution by bayonet or beheading and medical experimentation were certainly confirmed practices. Waterboarding would be the least of many Japanese prisoners concerns and the water would have been welcome by U.S. prisoners on Bataan.”
So this is the standard we need to live ‘up’ to???
obamite appointees better beware of this if holder goes through with his witchhunt. you know what they say about payback and there is nothing like political payback. obama, by not stopping holder, is setting this nation up. the badguys know he is weak just like the russians knew carter was weak. bad things happen when you are weak.
The attempt to make a moral rationale out of torture on the grounds that the end justifies the means is like encouraging your children to cheat in school as long as they get into a good college. To argue that “our” torture is nicer than “their” torture is like saying shoplifting should be allowed because it’s not grand larceny. To correlate an investigation of torture with “having forgotten 9/11″ is simply morally indefensible.
I hope this will post, Kyle. I tried several times before on other AJC blogs, unfortunately it was not allowed. However, it is very apropos to this blog topic.
Senator Chuck Schumer spoke out on the controversy over torture a while back in an interview on MSNBC: Senator Schumer said the officials who approved enhanced interrogation techniques should be investigated.
Senator Chuck Schumer (D) New York: I have some faith in Eric Holder and the Obama administration on this issue. The first day they said OK water-boarding is torture. We’re not going to torture and the most important thing they did is they extended the Army manual which isn’t bad…
That is Senator Schumer in the interview on MSNBC.
But back in 2004, Senator Schumer was telling an entirely different story. Senator Schumer then said that he and most of his colleagues would support the use of torture if it would save American lives.
Senator Chuck Schumer: If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city, and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe, maybe, would give us a chance at finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say do what you have to do. So it is easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used, but when you are in the foxhole it is a very different deal.
“When you are in the foxhole and not five years later doing an interview it really is a very different deal.”
Since September 2001 I have maintained a free and confidential “9/11 list-serv”.
The “9/11 list-serv” distributes daily e-mails containing newspaper articles and other relevant information re: 9/11 issues of interest to 9/11 families, 9/11 organizations and interested individuals.
NYC CAN News Bulletin – FORWARD WIDELY
SILENCING OF NYC VOTERS WILL NOT GO UNCHALLENGED
August 24, 2009
On Monday, August 10, NYC CAN began a comprehensive review of the nearly 26,000 signatures invalidated by the New York City Board of Elections and City Clerk. With 26,003 signatures accepted as valid by the City, at least 3,997 additional signatures were needed to exceed the threshold of 30,000 signatures. 10 days, 50 volunteers and 1,000 man-hours later, we are thrilled to report we have so far discovered 6,924 signatures we will argue were wrongly invalidated.
In addition, the Court has granted an extension allowing us to complete our review of 6 unfinished volumes. We anticipate having well over 7,000 additional valid signatures once the review is complete. The 50+ individuals who helped conduct the review take great pride in knowing their work has stopped the silencing of 7,000 New York City voters and allowed their voices to be heard.
On Friday, August 28, we must serve a Bill of Particulars listing all signatures we argue should be deemed valid by the Court. Special Referee Louis Crespo will begin a line-by-line review of the disputed signatures on Tuesday, September 8, and is scheduled to complete his review by Friday, September 18.
Pending the outcome of the Court’s review of the disputed signatures, lawyers for NYC CAN and the City will begin arguing the legality of the petition’s proposed amendment to the City Charter.
Looking ahead, NYC CAN will submit an additional 28,000 signatures on September 3 to satisfy the requirement of 15,000 valid signatures needed to override the City Council’s failure to act on the petition. The 60-day period for the City Council to approve the referendum’s placement on the ballot ended today, August 24, 2009. If NYC CAN wins in court, the submission of 15,000 more valid signatures will guarantee the referendum’s placement on the ballot.
Legal proceedings are expected to last through the month of September, by which time a favorable determination from the Court is needed in order for the referendum to be placed on this November’s ballot. Over the last 25 years six ballot initiatives have been attempted in New York City. Only one has made it on the ballot: the 1993 initiative to limit New York City elected officials to two terms in office, whose supporters also had to go to court to prove the initiative legal before passage by the voters, and which was nevertheless undone by the City Council last year. We will battle against all odds to see that the initiative to establish a critically needed reinvestigation of 9/11 does not suffer the same fate as past ballot initiatives.
NYC CAN now calls upon its thousands of members and millions aware of the egregious inadequacy of the 9/11 Commission Report to help ensure our fight for a real investigation does not go unnoticed by the larger public. Nearly 80,000 New Yorkers have put pen to paper to call for the right of all New Yorkers to vote an impartial, independent investigation into existence. This momentous step forward in the quest for truth about September 11th will be looked upon with admiration across the globe. Through the ages those who have fought for justice did not win by backing down when their government said no. We will continue this fight and future efforts with the same determination that has gotten us to where we stand today.
No Kyle. It hasn’t been forgotten. What has happened is that it is no longer allowed to be used as the built in excuse for trampling all over the 4th Amendment and no longer a fast track for those that would turn this country into a police state. “Those that would give up their freedom for security, deserve neither”. No truer words have ever been spoken.
BigAl has this nailed. If I lose my job, and my babies are starving, we have no electricity, water, or gas, I don’t believe the judge will find me “not guilty” for armed robbery. He will not look at my circumstances and say I was justified. The judge will find me guilty, and send me to prison. With that said, my heart goes out to the agents for their sacrifice, but as I have heard so often said, “Do the crime do the time”.
If the law is situational, it should be situational across the board.
HellinaHandbasket, nobody is forgetting. However courageous Americans are standing up and saying HELL NO it will not be used as an excuse to destroy our Constitution and turn us into a society living under a government that considers us the enemy. I applaud those who are standing against “big brother” bringing us totally under thumb. If you want to live in a country where government surveillance is the norm, or “show me your papers” is common, go live in one of those places. Give up your freedom for a little false security. Go on.
kwingfield August 27th, 2009 12:35 pm SAID: Let’s focus less on the headline and more on the issue I was trying to address: That these CIA agents might face prosecution for doing what the nation essentially asked of them at the time (prevent another attack at all costs), and it’s because we’re judging them with a different perspective than they could have had at the time.
CHRIS SAYS: Comments are finally allowed!!!! Hooray! That said, my beef with your reasoning here is that these actions went well beyond 9/11. In fact, many of the torture techniques used, were used 2-3 years later.
We prosecuted Japanese officers as war criminals after WWII and this type of torture was one of the crimes listed against them. An American soldier was photographed waterboarding a North Vietnamese POW, near Da Nang and the accompanying article described it as a common interrogation technique. Within one month of its publication, that soldier was court-martialled by a US military court and discharged from the military. The excuse “Just following orders” also does not hold any merit. That excuse did not hold any water when we prosecuted and convicted war criminals from Japan and Germany.
- K. Wingfield – The 9/11 terrorist attacks will never be forgotten, but it’s
probably true for some Americans, and you have a right to your opinion.
– Howard – Inexcusable. “we were his (Sen. Kennedy) prey…”? What “we”
are you talking about? A senator who had bipartisan respect form his
colleagues is compared after he passes to JOHN GOTTI? That may pass
on your home planet, but on Earth we expect common sense to be used
by ALL citizens.
- extremerightwing – In order to vote, you should at least know when to use
capital letters at the beginning of a sentence.
- Les Miles – I agree completely. Politically-challenged whack jobs (like
extremerightwing et al.) don’t understand that if the 4th Amendment were
theoretically abolished to chase after “evildoers”, they would have more
to lose than the average citizen. The average citizen doesn’t stockpile
large amounts of weapons and explosives or write manifestos calling
attention to themselves or send mail-bombs to judges, editors and
CEOs. Maybe that’s because they seek to create the type of police-state
they claim to abhor in order to protect themselves from “undesirables”,
such as minorities, immigrants, etc. Those who fail to learn from the past
are doomed to repeat it.
Not being a resident of the city, I’ve got no dog in this fight. Unfortunately Mr. Turpeau may have diminished the chances of a candidate he supports through guilt by association.
Mr. Turpeau, who contributed $500 to Ms. Borders’ campaign, defended the memo’s message.
“You shouldn’t vote solely on having a black candidate,” he said. “You have to deal with the credentials and skill set first. After that, it’s a feeling of pride that we’ve had for 35 years in this town. Ego gets important.”
EGO!!?!! Ego can often be mistaken for arrogance — a characteristic within politicians that has become all too offensive to the “average” American regardless of party OR race.
Mr. Turpeau is exposed by the invisible “BUT” that falls between the first two sentences and the last. Forget what he said in the first two sentences — his intention was made clear in the last.
African Americans need to toss “pigeon-holes” like Turpeau to the curb.
Good article Kyle. Far more succinct and less-tainted with justification than another AJC columnist whose name I will not mention.
One more thing, Kyle. When was the last time a Republican held the office of mayor. Maybe the city should give one a try. I don’t care whether he/she is white/black/asian or hispanic.
He/she/they might just succeed in bringing the city out of its Democratic doldrums.
When was the last time a Republican held the office of mayor.
Oh, I can just see an Atlanta population gushing support for school voucher programs, business incentives, and big trickle-down city tax breaks for the wealthy. Dream on, @@.
I always say if one’s gonna dream, one should dream BIG!!! Otherwise it’s just waste(D) effort. Kinda like trickling down a storm drain. The opportunity to flush ain’t there. It just accumulates emitting a foul odor.
I’m glad you didn’t see my rant. I was so engrossed in my anger with one particular blogger that I wasn’t reading any of the other comments.
Anyhoo, go ahead and share your thoughts on Kyle’s column. I’m always willing to listen to a man of few words. Words delivered with wisdom.
(IW&SH)
BTW, oftentimes reconstruction (politically speaking) is a good thing. I never again want to witness one-party rule in Washington. The American people become an afterthought when a political party gains too much power. It becomes all about them and their party.
There are those that believe nothing can get done unless there’s one party rule. I’m thinking that there are enough moderates who are beginning to see that as a problem with a solution. THEM.
Apparently, all it takes to cover for someone to spout racist material and then cover for that material is that it was done in the name of “academic analysis.” If by analysis you mean openly laying out campaign strategy that singles out one race to be defeated because of that person’s race, then analyze away. Why stop there? Why not create whole districts that vote for a certain group favorable to the “academic analysis” scheme? Oh wait, it’s been done. How about decreasing the standards of an examination for fireman in the north to allow for a more “inclusive” pool? Been there, done that. Why not engage in an “it’s our time to turn the screw” mentality despite the overwhelming evidence that at no other time in American history has more opportunity been available to a wider range of the populace. Yeah. The only thing owed to anyone in this country is the opportunity of a level playing field. That has been achieved. The professors had every right under the Constitution to express their opinions. To deny them would deny basic rights. What they are guilty of is using their positions and influence to perpetuate the myth that keeping historically black districts within their race is a positive for their neighborhoods. Just shut up and win on the content of your character, not the ugliness of your policy.
I don’t know if I am more offended by a) the obvious discriminatory message of the memo or b) the frighteningly illogical attempt by the memo’s authors to redefine what is obvious content wise to any learned person or c) the poorly articulated apologetics contained in the missive or, perhaps d) Clark Atlanta suggesting that this memo doesn’t represent the view of the CAU faculty when, in fact, these gentleman are CAU faculty members.
It is tough to decide whether the anachronistic nature of the advocation for a mayoral candidate based simply on race or the fact that these men get tabbed as “professors” when they clearly lack some of the fundamentals we would hope for in graduating students.
“Now, one might argue that these independent voters are simply saying that GOP voters are very conservative and Democratic voters are fairly moderate.”
As an independent I’d say that’s exactly it. However, this is the type of poll that is dependent on how the questions are worded. Without seeing Rasmussen’s actual questions, we have little context. And considering how tortured the explanation is, I can only imagine the muddied the parameters were.
I have been preaching for years that the enemy is not Republicans, the enemy is not Democrats, the enemy is Incumbents. But I am a lone soul crying in the wilderness.
Here is what Incumbents have brought us:
The national debt – $290.5 billion in 1960 — $11.6 trillion is 2009
This is the gift of Incumbents to the American people—who keep electing them.
We should not only fire every incumbent, but also, seize their respective pensions to shore up social security, medicare, and medicaid. Every incumbent that is fired should also be subject to an audit of their financial portfolios to determine if their time in office has unethically benefited them.
Ron Paul would be the only incumbent with a record to prove non- culpability.
The American people deserve some ex-post facto justice and a good Robbespierre.
Finally we can blog. You need to learn that just because a person calls theirself a Republican does not make them a Conservative. How about writing about the failures of our 2 Socialist Senators.
“In general,” the new justice said, “I would say I hearken back to those of the Founding Fathers. No women, blacks, or unlanded need expect for their vote to count.” Nah, he didn’t really say that, although some would hope he would. Perhaps he will turn out to be a “nonpartisan” judge.
It means that the former employees will no longer be able to afford tea, so the Chinese tea exporters will lower the price .000000000000000000001 of one cent, in order to compensate for the decrease in sales.
Not to change the subject, but Obamas about to get an even ruder wake up call. Sarah Palin was dead on when she brought up death panels in the health care bill.
Sentenced to death on the NHS
Patients with terminal illnesses are being made to die prematurely under an NHS scheme to help end their lives, leading doctors have warned.
Overpaid? You realize that we just got pretty much the most brilliant young lawyer in this state appointed to our Supreme Court, right? Look at this man’s biography – it is unreal. He has devoted pretty much an entire professional career to public service. Do you have any idea how little he is going to get paid for the thankless job of being an appellate judge compared to what he would make as an equity partner at one of the big law firms in town? Lets just say he is taking a paycut of nearly a million dollars a year. We should feel fortunate that he has agreed to serve us in this fashion rather than take a few years off from public service to rake in the big bucks.
“One might assume that his prosecutorial experience would lead him to have more empathy – to use a buzzword from Sotomayor’s nomination – for, say, police officers and how a given ruling might hamper them in the future.”
So empathy is good when its coming from the right and it favors law enforcement? D*mn the people huh? Thought some of you decent conservatives would’ve learned in the last 8 years that everything a republicans does is ‘right’.
Disinclined to legislate from the bench? If he is learning from Scalia then he is learning from one of the most prolofic “legislators from the bench” in SCOTUS history. I still maintain that Scaalia is the best legislator in DC.
We certainly don’t want judges who legislate from the bench — after all, that’s what happened in “Bush v. Gore” and we’ll be suffering the consequences of that judicial activism for a long time to come. Now, tell me again which justices were the majority on “Bush v. Gore”?
I wish Justice Nahmias well and pray that he will judge from the law and not from some favored republican philosophy and/or dictate.
Although not subject to confirmation as are Supreme Court justices, I understand and accept that elections have consequences and one of the most important is the appointment of judges. Although I would not have chosen Justice Nahmias, I certainly was hardly surprised nor will I hold my breath and pout that the republican governor of Georgia has chosen a republican Justice that is most likely to judge as a republican governor would hope.
The cycle of partisan votes for Supreme Court justices is complete and will probably never change in my lifetime. Most democrat senators, including then Senator Obama, refused to confirm President Bush’s last two nominees, both well qualified, because they were not democrat Justices and most republicans did the same thing with Justice Sotomayor. They will also do the same thing with President Obama nominees to replace Justices Stevens and Ginsberg, both of whom will almost certainly retire before the next presidental election.
As a matter of fact, you can go ahead and fax this press release to Senator Chambliss for future use: “Today President Obama nominated (fill in the blank with any name)to replace Justice John Paul Stevens, who announced his retirement last month. In reponse, US Senator Saxby Chambliss noted that he was deeply troubled by the liberal activist record of (fill in with any nominee that President Obama would offer). According to Senator Chambliss (you could also replace his name with almost any republican senator), “while I remain uncommitted at this point, (fill in the blank)deeply troubles me as I see his/her judicial record as one that will continue to lead the country down the road to (fill in the blank here – socialism, communism, murder of the unborn, being overrun with illegal immigrants, justice through identity politics, empathy – I am certain you can think of many more terms to use in this blank).
President Obama will most likely have the opportunity to protect the four vote democrat wing of the Supreme Court and the four vote republican wing of the Supreme Court is young and healthy enough to be untouchable for the foreseeable future. That leaves Justice Kennedy, who appears to be about .75 republican and about .25 democrat.
Unless he retires, the Supreme Court will remain 4.75 republican and 4.25 democrat even if President Obama is re-elected. Only if he is re-elected and then followed by another democrat will the Court become majority democrat.
In Georgia, republicans are likely to control the General Assembly and the Governor’s office for the foreseeable future and almost any judicial choice will reflect this partisan political philosophy.
What’s that you say, democrats would do the same thing if they were in control? Of course they would (and did). You don’t really think there is a dime’s worth of difference between democrats and republicans when it comes to partisan opportunity do you? Elections have consequences.
[...] tend to be Democrats, but public anger is aimed at career politicians of all stripes. As I wrote yesterday about recent polling numbers, both parties ignore this aspect of the public’s dissatisfaction [...]
Cutty: I didn’t use “empathy” approvingly there. If the law says a defendant has a particular right in the course of a trial, and a judge were to rule against the defendant and in favor of law enforcement out of empathy, that would be wrong. And David Nahmias’ comments indicate he wouldn’t do that, even if some people will expect that of him.
President Obama’s comments about “empathy,” on the other hand, suggest that under certain other circumstances he would find it appropriate for a judge to rule based on empathy. That’s the difference.
Well, long as this new judge don’t throw out the Death Penalty or rule against big business or rule in favor of someone that got convicted or overturn a State Law I’m all for him. I’m sick of these libruls on GA courts. Both of them.
I’m awful glad to see this Wingfield finally letting people blog. For awhile I thought he was ducking us, sort of like the 115-lb. weakling hiding behind the teacher in the school yard.
It’s hard enough trying to figure out American politics. Who really cares what Japan or Germany do to run their pissant societies?
Please stick to matters we can relate to…and be a conservative as you claim; not a republican apologist. How about a nice article on how Ron Paul will save our country?
Davo, I might be new at this but I’m not sure how my saying that giving Republicans power “hardly seems like the answer,” that it’s “a combination of the Bush and Obama eras that has people seething,” and that “public anger is aimed at career politicians of all stripes” qualifies me as a “republican apologist.”
J Dobson and Churchill’s MOM: It’s a possible copyright violation to publish entire articles from other news outlets here, not to mention that it makes the blog hard to read. So I’m taking down your posts and providing links here:
“Who really cares what Japan or Germany do to run their pissant societies?”
Davo, I’m not one to say these countries have everything figured out, but that comment reeks of willful ignorance. No country in the world has a perfect system, but there are things that other countries do better than the good ol’ USA.
Kyle, I think a rapid swing back to Republicans is highly likely now due to the current congressional leadership’s general corruption and ineptitude. Of course, that will just mean we will have another “mandate” for loss of freedom and corporate executive greed.
John Adams, Ben Franklin & Thomas Jefferson would call it “incumbency”.
That’s the habit of people to vote over & over for the same old tired retreads. And, as I say over & over, the enemy is not Republicans, the enemy is not Democrats, the enemy is Incumbents. And, my fellow citizens, what has “incumbency” brought you these past 50 years?
The national debt – $290.5 billion in 1960 — $11.6 trillion in 2009.
This was brought to you by the Incumbents you continue to return to office year after year. Congratulations.
I think we need two things to get our country headed in the right directions.
The first is NEW Republicans in office. I think the Republican party needs to go find some real, competent conservatives from state and local government and send them to Washington. I think a lot of voters agree with conservative ideas, but they are angry because the Republicans they elected in the past decade or so didn’t govern by those principles. Instead, they turned out to be power-hungry sellouts.
The second is term limits in one house of Congress (probably the House of Representatives). That way, there will always be fresh new legislators in Washington. The reason I think it should be one house and not both is that we still need seasoned statesmen in our government. I think this would create a good blend of experience and new ideas.
Has his administration been in power that long as to be refered to as an ‘era’? Cop to the fact that W deserves the brunt of the blame for our miserable state of affairs and I’ll cut you some slack. We all know what to expect from the democrats…since when do we let the GOP off the hook for betraying their core principles (limited govt, personal responsibilty etc)
RP is a republican in name only and has said so himself. If there was a true conservative, constitutional party out there he would most likely be leading it. I would hope as a 30-something conservative you would be blogging about this aspect of politics rather than re-hashing tired, us vs them 2 party BS. There’s a market for that, Kyle…I’d like to see you embrace it.
Ah, no. I think it reeks of willful clarity. I won’t deny that there is much to be learned from other countries (that would be ignorant). My point comes from the fact that practically every other country in the world has it easy when governing the masses. Why? Because 99% of the people in Japan are…ethnically Japanese. Probably 90% of Germany is populated by…Germans (with the remainder being our WW2 occupation force). This country doesn’t have that luxury…we’re the melting pot. While it may be nice to think that everyone can sit back and sing kumbaya in unison, the fact is we’re fractured along many ethnic and societal lines and bringing them all under one roof is tough.
This guy makes this point better than I if you care to explore this further.
“Usually by accident of geography, ethnicity or both, people share cuisine, art, technology, architecture and gods particular to their little corner of the world….While we might find value in ourselves as individuals it can’t be underestimated how much self-worth we derive from being part of a larger human continuum.”
JT: So how would you assign judges to the Ga Supreme Court? You must pay for competency and experience.
The first thing that I would do would be to end the ridiculous requirement of a judge to be a lawyer.
A few states still allow normal, honest people to be judges.
Just because a person took the easy way out in college by studying law shouldn’t automatically qualify him for being a judge.
And through a lifetime carreer of proscecuting, how do you measure competency?
No matter how much the state bar tries to brainwash you, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know and memorize precedents and legal codes. 98% of lawyering is just knowing how to kiss judges arses and obeying their silly protocol.
Trust me, Joe the Plumber could and would do a better job. And be more honest.
The one thing Democratic and Republican office holders have in common is that they will do anything to see that current system that benefits incumbents stays in place. It’s been said that the Senate is the world’s most exclusive private club and I think you could expand that to the current Federal Government in general. Both sides will give lip service to change, always through a prism that benefits them, but the fact is they like things the way they are and will work to keep it the way it is. They’ll talk a little reform now and then when their feet are to the fire but that’s about it.
Re: Nahmias- one thing to cause optimism toward his ability to remain impartial is his refusal to retry Brian Nichols under the federal law against killing federal agents.
Re: “Legislate from the bench” language: I hope you do not mean he should value legislation over the Constitutions of Georgia and the United States. Review of legislation as it has been applied by law enforcement, agencies, and lower courts is a Supreme Court Justice’s role most of the time in the highest appellate court. If the law were not confusing (or the actions of state agents not questionable), then the Supreme Court of Georgia (or the US Supreme Court) would not take the case. The only time either political party calls it “legislating from the bench” is when the court finds that proper application of the law contradicts that party’s ideology.
Liberals are so nice. They are so nice that they bite fingers off of 65 year old health care opponents. HELLO NAZIS!
Finger bitten off during California health protest
AP
THOUSAND OAKS, Calif. – California authorities say a clash between opponents and supporters of health care reform ended with one man biting off another man’s finger.
Ventura County Sheriff’s Capt. Frank O’Hanlon says about 100 people demonstrating in favor of health care reforms rallied Wednesday night on a street corner. One protester walked across the street to confront about 25 counter-demonstrators.
O’Hanlon says the man got into an argument and fist fight, during which he bit off the left pinky of a 65-year-old man who opposed health care reform.
A hospital spokeswoman says the man lost half the finger, but doctors reattached it and he was sent home the same night.
Incumbancy is the real problem. Term limits are the solution. Most Americans know this, but still vote based upon pols lies. Lets start the change today. Call your reps and tell them to get ready to leave office. Since they are not doing the countries business as we have been told!
Well, I’m with the rest of the godly Conservatives here. I’m for term limits. Until the godly Republicans get in the majority again. Then I’ll argue about how important it is to keep people in office that know what’s going on and how things work.
Alright…so I linked to some nekkid leftists at Zombietime, Kyle. Is that why my comment is held up in moderation? Folks don’t have to look unless they want a good laugh.
“Certainly, it’s what tens of millions of voters thought they were getting when they elected Barack Obama last November. But the tea parties, the town-hall protests and the opinion polls suggest that Americans are getting less than they had “hoped” for.”
Kyle, I’m not sure this statement is true as the Obama administration hasn’t really undertaken their agenda. They put in the stimulus (with some pork but mostly tax cuts and need items) and banking fixes which helped salvage the economy. Obama really hasn’t done anything else as Healthcare reform is his first major issue.
I’d attribute the anger to the media and fringe Republicans along with the defeat in November. It allowed Hannity, Limbaugh, etc to really rally the listeners and incite the fringe of their party to become vocal. It’s also been helped that they don’t have to meet journalistic standards of integrity so they can use half-truths and misinformation to even make topic more inflammatory. It makes no sense for people who could’ve care less about politics two years ago to be so emotionally invested now unless that is what’s going on. For instance, people are so concerned about the deficit now, but Bush exploded the deficit and kept the war spending hidden and the silence was deafening.
I throw out the town hall results because its just the idiot fringes of both parties. The polls tell a story, but it mostly tells who is winning the propaganda war.
Finally, I don’t think people are that upset at the Obama agenda. In Georgia, it seems like it but that’s because its primarily Republicans and by nature it’ll be contrarian here. He still has a pretty good approval rating overall especially given the amount of propaganda that has been manufactured against him.
Sonny Perdue began his second term under a cloud of allegations pertaining to questionable land deals in Houston County, Florida, as well as a customized tax break for the Houston County transaction.
Formal complaints about his misuse of the Governor’s office were quickly dismissed by the Republican controlled General Assembly. The fact laden complaint was then submitted to the office of the U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Georgia and nothing has been heard of it since. That office was headed by David Nahmias.
Comingle Perdue’s steadfast refusal to answer lingering questions about his actions with his appointment of Nahmias to the state’s highest court with no prior judicial experience and questions are bound to come to mind.
Stannie September 3rd, 2009 1:20 pm
“Incumbancy is the real problem. Term limits are the solution.”
I believe you are wrong. The solution is not term limits. The solution is NOT voting for Incumbents. And it would help if there were a true Conservative Party. Libertarian comes close, but not close enough (although they have certainly gotten a lot of votes from me).
To my mind, Conservative means Political Conservative. Social Conservatives, for example, are Political Liberals because they want the central government to “fix” a lot of problems (whether perceived or real). Political Conservatives, on the other hand, want the central government to keep hands off most everything.
American workers are getting less compensation and longer hours thanks to unrestrained corporate power. Congress has done little, if any, to protect workers (regardless of one’s view of health care, for example). I am allowed so little time off and work for such cheap wages ($8/hr.) just to survive. So, no, I don’t think my government cares one iota about me, nor do I care anymore about them. Total disconnect/distrust. Little wonder the cynicism!
Jessica, what assurances do the people have that the NEW Republicans will be any different than the OLD Republicans?
The adage of putting lipstick on a pig does comes to mind, as many have too often seen a NEW label put on an OLD product which claims to be NEW and IMPROVED only to dismally provide less efficacy than previously obtained at a higher purchase price.
A fresh face on a rotting carcass does not a pleasant stench produce.
Unquestionably this country is a center-right or right of center nation via citizen self-proclamation, where 40% identify themselves as conservatives and 39% identifying themselves as centrists, clearly liberalism at only a mere 21% is out of keeping with the mainstream ideologies of the national heart and soul of America. At the moment, excuse the overuse of parlance, but the tail is wagging the dog!
In truth it would be a far easier task to reform a political party than to reform the entire body of politic in this country. Unfortunately time has come that “We the People” may well have to do exactly that risky and untenable, as some may rightly question it, the unthinkable thing.
In review of the present and past administrations far too much power has been centralized at the Federal level, even have powers been unduly conceded to executive branch meant to forever remain in the domain of the legislative branch, same said in regards to the judicial branch when law is legislated from the bench, all contrary to our founder’s foundation of governance as laid out in the simple though effective concept of Federalism: The checks and balances thereof have all but been unchecked and meant to serve an imbalance.
To correctly address the Constitutional misgivings that have evolved over time, even to arguably best approach the change of terms served in limiting the years of service of a Representative in the House the several States should call for a Constitutional Convention.
Do not take this as a personal attack or anything in any manner of speaking as an effort to demean you, Jessica. Quite to the contrary, you have only made me think and re-think my challenged positions that I’ve long held against the use of Constitutional Convention where I’ve resisted it in the times past knowing the risk involved that might lead to an undoing of the Union.
John Adams, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson never held to the beliefs of Lincoln and Eisenhower of an indestructible union, as they held it would likely not endure the span of their own lifetimes. Ben Franklin was asked upon exiting the Constitutional Convention of 1787, “Well, Doctor, what have we got: A republic or a monarchy?” With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded, “A republic, if you can keep it.”
“I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed
of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in
politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for
myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and
moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I
would not go there at all.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Francis
Hopkinson, 1789.
“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every
fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence
of a God; because, if there is one, he must more approve of the
homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1787.
“I hope that we have not labored in vain, and that our experiment
will still prove that men can be governed by reason.”
I think you’ve got a point, Mr. Wingfield, that perhaps people are tired of the brainlock of incumbents of both parties, which leads to wrong-headed “solutions” to problems here and elsewhere. Often, even when you get a “new” person in office, it’s someone who has spent years in ideological lockstep with the previous person.
Which party stands for the voters? The Democrats are owned by the trial lawyers and the Republicans are owned by the Insurance Companies. Does anyone know a single voter who really wanted to vote for Saxby Chambliss but he was reelected. We need TERM LIMITS NOW.
We need not just lobby for term limits, but we also need to understand that an awful lot “conservatives” are fiscal conservatives and social libertarians. In fact, that may be the majority of the population. We need a new face, and a party receptive to that approach, rather than the all or nothing approach both of the instant parties take. As a conservative, I would love to see a new face, and a bright mind emerge who embraced fiscal responsibility, social live and let live, and was responsive to the populace. Right now Congress and the White House are populated by egomaniacs.
Churchill’s MOM: There’s a big difference between cutting and pasting an entire 800-word column from another publication without even crediting the author, and quoting sparingly from an article (using the term loosely here) while providing a link and credit. Do the latter, and you’ll be fine.
I’d be in favor of term limits and perhaps a couple other things on the list but if you call a Constitutional Convention (assuming you’re sucessful), there’s no telling what kind of Pandora’s box you’d be opening. The potential for mischief and mayhem are great.
“If a liberal can be defined as someone who refuses to reconcile his utopian vision with reality, then there has never been anything particularly conservative about the neoconservatives. That the U.S. could somehow transform the Middle East if only we invested enough dollars and effort was a fairy tale the neoconservative Bush administration not only sold the American people, but Republican unity and identity depended on conservatives’ willingness to believe this fantasy.”
Don’t let a bunch of lawyer/politicians muddy the water.
The present constitution serves us fine IF we follow it.
Term Limits legislation would not be necessary IF we had an AUDIT at the end of each Representative’s “career”. Any conflict of interest or unethical gain would be forfeited and the rep would be fined.
The IRS routinely does this to ordinary Americans. Term limits might make you feel good, but oftentimes, politician/lawyers do more damage and steal more AFTER they are fired by the public.
(Think Dachsel,).
Ya caint legislate morality. Americans deserve who they vote in.
In essence, then, we are to get rid of most of the Constitution as it exists and form a new nation based on untrammeled commercial and state power, with a federal government so weak it might as well not exist. Fifty little nations allied with a few thousand corporations, eh?
No thanks. I’ll keep what we have, warts and all. And this whole business of term limits is a bunch of hooey. You never hear conservatives calling for term limits when their party is in power. It’s strange how the cry for term limits goes out when the conservatives have lost their stranglehold on federal power.
The Federal government represents 300+ million people with varying incomes ethnicities, and cultures. To assume that one government can provide laws that are equitable is laughable at best. Throw in the fact that the average rep has a district with 700,000 people in it suggests that the Federal government is fairly distanced from the people it supposedly represents. I feel much more safe with a weak government whose main responsibility is protecting individual rights than a strong government that is only concerned with 151 million of us.
One big problem with term limits is that it will invest far more power with unelected government officials, if for no other reason, they are the ones who know how everything works. I will give you a great example. When I was up in D.C., I had a good friend who worked as a contractor with NASA. Every couple of years, the contract would come up for bid. During his 15 or so years there, the contract changed hands four times. With each contract change, most of the senior managers would be replaced but most of the remaining staff members would be asked to stay. He worked essentially the same job during his tenure but he did it for four different employers. The same thing happens when new senators or members of congress get elected. They might bring in a few new faces but chances are, they recruit their staff from the people already there.
As I said previously calling for a Constitutional Convention is risky business; however, to proceed “as is” with the status quo is even more risky and far worse than unacceptable.
“New Faces” cannot correct inherent problems found in the Articles of the Constitution and in a couple of Constitutional Amendments that were written to address issues of a different time that no longer exist today which has only created other current dilemmas.
I was glad to see Randy Barnett went after the commerce clause: One of the most Federally abused Articles of Confederation and detrimental to the Rights of the States. Though he should not have stopped with restraining the Congress alone. He should have included the other two branches of government, particularly the Supreme Court.
I do disagree with the thoughts that the majority in this country are fiscal conservatives but social liberals: Only the vast minority of 41 states happen to agree with me.
“The Republican Study Committee bases its proposal to extend “access to [health] coverage to all Americans” on tax credits. This includes “an advanceable, refundable tax credit (on a sliding scale) for low-income individuals to purchase coverage.”
Still don’t like it…sounds like a ‘meet you in the middle’ proposition that does nothing to stop the advance of UHC…just stop-gap til the 2010 election is past.
Oh well, enough is enough for this week….as Cynthia Tucker reminds us today that socialists have brought us an extra day day of solace, we might as well begin to enjoy it and set this aside for next week.
I have a big problem with HR 3400 as proposed by Rep. Tom Price.
SEC. 221. EXPANSION OF ACCESS AND CHOICE THROUGH INDIVIDUAL MEMBERSHIP ASSOCIATIONS (IMAS).
`SEC. 3101. DEFINITION OF INDIVIDUAL MEMBERSHIP ASSOCIATION (IMA).
`(a) In General- For purposes of this title, the terms `individual membership association’ and `IMA’ mean a legal entity that meets the following requirements:
`(1) ORGANIZATION- The IMA is an organization operated under the direction of an association (as defined in section 3104(1)).
SEC. 3104. DEFINITIONS.
`For purposes of this title:
`(1) ASSOCIATION- The term `association’ means, with respect to health insurance coverage offered in a State, an association which–
`(A) has been actively in existence for at least 5 years;
This is far to constraining and restrictive to make insurance portable from job to job — or to joblessness, as the case may be, Kyle. The only way portability can be guaranteed is if the “individual” not business or government or only the existing non-consumer owned, ran and administered cooperatives within a state controls healthcare.
No way will I support HR 3400 in its current form without the inclusion of and the expansion of the ability to establish or create new mutual insuring consumer owned, ran and administered healthcare cooperatives within any state.
My suggestion Rep. Price is get out of bed with business and the corporations sir, it is what many conservatives hate about Republicans and the Republican Party presently – yours truly included. This country was not meant to serve government, business, corporations or political opportunists. It was meant and should return in sole meaning to serving entirely the utmost liberty of the “individual U.S. citizen”.
I will remain hopeful of what the gang of six in the Senate can produce in the way of mutual insuring consumer owned, ran and administered healthcare cooperatives without any hidden Public single payer Option Trojan Horse attached under the assigned the name of “Trigger”.
No government owned healthcare, no business owned healthcare. Every individual citizen of this country should own and control their healthcare entirely.
Ah, yes. More of the same when it comes to for-profit healthcare insurance.
Giving Tax Credits once a year is supposed to magically pay 12 premiums a year? The sick, the poor and the unemployed must make these tax savings (or refund) last all that time, in the face of continued unemployment, disability, or poverty? This solution lacks the month-to-month solution these people will need…saving them money in April will not do them any good in October when they are still in dire straits. Even if the Tax Credit took the form of a refund, again the problem remains…a once-a-year stipend will not last. Disability is a year-round problem, not one that comes and goes every April.
The core of your “solution” seems to be the typical Republican “free-market forces” argument, stating that additional competition between existing insurance companies will force them to be more responsive and responsible. And yet, this is the same form of competition that has led to 40,000,000+ uninsured, and a United Healthcare CEO who makes $102,000 per hour.
A public option is the only true way to get behind the wall of crazy money and heartlessness that now rules the system. I fail to see how merely adding to the number of customers available to insurance companies will have any effect on their practices. Adding a public option will result in TRUE competition for those companies, who then really would have to re-think their profit-versus-treatment attitudes. Maybe then, breast-cancer patients would not be denied coverage for not informing the insurance company that they went to a dermatologist 18 years ago for acne treatments. Maybe then, children who need special bone-shaping helmets would not have treatment denied on the grounds that the helmet is “cosmetic in nature” (again, United Healthcare).
AND WHERE IS THE ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE VARIOUS SHILLS OF THEIR ILK HAVE BEEN MISLEADING THE PUBLIC WITH “DEATH PANELS” AND EUTHANASIA FOR THE ELDERLY AND “RATIONING” AND FORCED ENROLLMENT, AND THE REST OF THE LIES?
No, not a word about the dis-information campaign that has led to violent town-hall meetings, armed citizens in the streets talking about “killing tyrants”, the politics of US VERSUS THEM which pits citizens against each other, the” SOCIALIST” or” NAZI” rantings of the misled, the fearful, the ignorant, and the selfish or the fact that insurance companies are willing to spend millions of dollars to fight reform every step of the way.
No, not a word about the Republican “Party of NO” who offer the same worn-out tax-credit idea which will change nothing; not a word about their political agenda of “Obama must fail at all costs”; not a word about the corruption inherent in insurance-company donations to politicians; not a word about how the U.S. is ranked #37 in world healthcare despite spending more than anyone else; not a word about how we pay the world’s highest prices for prescription drugs available for a fraction of our cost, overseas. Not a word about how George Bush forbad the government from negotiating the cost of medicines for Medicare and Medicaid. Not a word about people like John McCain claiming that our healthcare system is “the best in the world” and in no need of fixing (although it is true that McCain’s healthcare DOES NOT need fixing).
Instead, you again use the Republican tactic of crying “WE ARE VICTIMS” while ignoring the facts; the Republicans had 12 years to do something about healthcare, and what they chose to do was to enrich the rich, allow the poor to suffer and die, accept millions in donations from insurance companies, and let the system become what it is today.
I’m sorry to say (but not sorry for you), but the meager sops you present as a panacea are just more of the same corrupt, selfish, free-market-faith heartlessness that has landed our country in this mess in the first place.
The problem, Kyle, is that an insurance system designed primarily for profit has incentive to deny coverage, design loopholes, exclude the needy, etc. That is the very logic of a private system. Why shovel tax-money into that via “credits” ? Two answers: 1) the power of the organized interests in that industry and 2) a mindless ideology that refuses to accept that profit motives might not be what you want at the core of a health-care system. If you really believe that a public option is a disaster, then please, please have your Republican friends introduce a bill to privative Medicare. But that would not be “pragmatic” would it, since people actually like public systems once they are in place………..
Kyle,
I’m happy to see that you are no longer citing the Lewin Group in your opposition to Health Insurance Reform. You did that last time you came out against any kind of single payer system. BTW, the Lewin Group, as I’m sure you already know, is owned by United Health, a health insurance company.
That said, tax credits are a sham because how do you expect people who are living in poverty or are unemployed to pay with tax credits for an extended period of time? A for profit health insurance system, implies that the system has to be profitable. That profit is always at the expense of the consumer to the benefit of shareholders. In this case, the consumer is the insured who gets stuck with high premiums, denied care for “pre-existing” conditions, and having rates raised arbitrarily. That’s how it works if you are self insured. Self insurance health policies are a cash cow for insurance companies. I know because I deal with them all the time. I’m, among other things, insurance licensed which includes a health insurance license.
In fact, we spend almost $7,000 per capita already on Health Care in this country with minimal return. That’s more than any other industrialized nation. Twice more than France, the UK, Germany or Canada. Where’s all that extra money going? We excel in emergency care but fail miserably at preventive care. About 20,000 people die in this country annually for lack of health care insurance and over 60% of personal bankruptcies are related to medical costs. Of those folks, 70% have some kind of health insurance but fall through the cracks devised by these companies.
We need to have far tougher regulations on health care insurance. There should be mandates which allow pre-existing conditions and subsidies and cost caps for those who cannot afford to pay for health insurance. There should be a government option that pays a bare minimum coverage but allows pre-existing conditions and which requires people below a certain level of income to enroll in it. Once you cross to a higher income level, you can leave and go to a private insurance company which can provide more bells and whistles (value added policies). You call this socialized medicine but there is nothing socialized about it. Germany, which requires universal coverage and has a government option, has over 200 private health insurance companies which are thriving and profitable. I’m very familiar with that system because I have lived there and have family over there.
BTW, SF perspective is correct. If you are so against a single payer option of any kind,under any circumstances, then tell your Republican friends in politics to come out and call for the abolishing of Medicare because that’s exactly what Medicare is. You cannot oppose any kind of public option on one hand yet mouth servile platitudes about keeping Medicare. That’s a double standard by any standard.
We need an educated debate on options, without the lies and misinformation. Calling something “socialized” medicine or that someone’s encouraging anyone to kill grandma doesn’t help in finding solutions. This plays into the hands of health insurance companies who would rather have no reforms at all. In fact, they’ve enlisted 50,000 of their employees to actively campaign against it.
The author states in ideological fashion that “Ideology is all that’s left”, implying that the pragmatic necessity of turning the abysmal and embarrassing status of health care of the world’s richest nation into a decent system is just a closed set of belief and not practical!?
I am a USA citizen who has been teaching in New Zealand for 14 years. NZ like EVERY other developed country has a public (single payer) health care system combined with affordable private health options – well to the left of what Obama is considering. Like nearly every other developed country, the major indicators of health care such as life expectancy and infant mortality rates are better than the US – even though the per capital wealth here is 2/3 that of the USA. No one pays more than a few dollars for prescriptions. Rationing exists for those without private insurance, but it is less than de facto rationing in the USA for the underinsured, uninsured and those dropped by the insurance industry.
No insurance forms are needed. Doctors make very good wages. Taxes are low compared to most countries (even the USA when comparing taxes other than Federal taxes). No death panels. Certainly no Castro-like secret police (or Bush style NSA). The government is far less intrusive than in the USA with objectively a far more vital and free democracy.
Indeed, in most of the civilized world, public health care is considered a human right…whether from the left, right or centre. It is no more “inefficient” than the “socialized” military, police and fire departments, libraries or highway departments. Undeniably, without issuance or pharmaceutical interference single payer systems are far more efficient. As in all such countries polls show that most prefer this system over a US privatized system. For Canada’s POV see: http://www.thestar.com/living/article/679824
Who can, with honesty, argue against such systems whose health indicators are far superior to that in the USA?
The government is responsible for protecting its citizens. Over 15,000 US citizens die each year because they cannot afford care. That’s five times the number of people who died on 9/11. The GOP wants people to suffer and die.
“One is just how angry Americans are about our nation’s increasing fiscal mismanagement.” It is amazing how you can spin preventing a new Great Depression into ‘increasing fiscal mismanagement.’ Mismanagement is what sent the financial system into a nose dive last year. But management this year is what has stopped a complete collapse.
Brit, good post. My concern about H.R. 3200 is that is makes it very difficult for private insurance to survive. Private insurers cannot compete with a government plan that does not have to be fiscally responsible. They have been set up to fail. You call this plan something to the right of what is in New Zealand? Medicare and Medicaid, in their current form, are not sustainable. I don’t take Obama seriously on this issue because he simply is not being forthcoming with what it is going to cost, and includes absolutely nothing on tort reform. If he would get serious, maybe more people would get serious about him. The two choices don’t have to be do nothing, or swallow the crap sandwich that is H.R. 3200.
People love public medical care because, in the words of George Will, they get 2009 medicine at 1960 prices. Which is why government run health care is absolutely unsustainable. Medicare and Medicare have tens of trillions in unfunded liabilities. What are you going to tell people on public plans when the government simply cannot pay it’s bills?
We need an educated debate on options, without the lies and misinformation.
Didn’t someone already point out the pot and kettle? Thanks for that advanced notice.
That’s how it works if you are self insured.Self insurance health policies are a cash cow for insurance companies.
Really now, it doesn’t work that way for mutual insuring non-profit consumer owned, ran and administered healthcare cooperatives.
Amazing how the self-proclaimed so-called educated debaters NEVER talk about the greedy pharmaceutical industry which are far more profitable than the insurance industry. Funny, they NEVER talk about the greedy trial lawyers. Hilarious is their FAILURE to mention medical device manufactures ranking in the big bucks.
Not so amazing, funny or hilarious is how the self-proclaimed so-called educated debaters NEVER acknowledge the trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities that the present SOCIALIST BIG GOVERNMENT healthcare programs face?
NEVER a mention of doctors refusing to take on Medicaid patients because these doctors receive less than their full fee?
But when Medicaid patients seek care, they often find themselves locked out of the medical system. In a 2006 report from the Center for Studying Health System Change, a nonprofit research group based in Washington, nearly half of all doctors polled said they had stopped accepting or limited the number of new Medicaid patients.
That’s because many Medicaid programs, straining under surging costs, are balancing their budgets by freezing or reducing payments to doctors. That in turn is driving many doctors, particularly specialists, out of the program.
And these self-proclaimed so-called educated debaters have the gall to suggest yet another SOCIALIST BIG GOVERNMENT healthcare program?
To all those who glory in how great other countries are doing on healthcare you have your PUBLIC OPTION already, all you need do is start moving the two good ones, left and right, you have standing on the ground to reach your grand SOCIALIST’S utopia.
The Swiss have undoubtedly a very good but SOCIALIZED healthcare system (probably the best in Europe) including private insurers but they all pay more than a few dollars with income taxes as high as 50%.
What? An article by Bubba Wingfield that’s not about how a “wave” of 11 misguided teenagers just joined the Georgia Young Republicans?
Reforming health care is not a political issue; it’s a moral one. No civilized country should deny anyone health care because they’re too poor to be able to afford to pay insurance companies. And no health insurance companies should be for-profit entities. I can’t believe that Republicans have to be convinced that it’s immoral to make a profit off of other people’s suffering. And most of them call themselves Christians (which may explain their inability to use reason and logic).
All for-profit health insurance should go out of business. When the motive is profit, the strategy, inevitably, is to deny as many claims as possible and to charge people as much as possible for as few services as possible. Our current system already does this and does so with increasingly regularity. It is simply unethical and barbaric. Americans pay the most for health care of any citizens in the world, but we’re not even in the top 35 in terms of quality of care, all while health insurance companies’ profits go up, the percentage of insured Americans goes down, and health insurance CEOs and executives rake in literally multimillions a year.
And the barbarism has been prominently on display by the right. These are people who shout down and insult handicapped citizens at town halls. Senator Tom Coburn suggested that a woman whose husband had a brain injury should resort to begging to cover his medical care (as if begging her neighbors would produce the tens of thousands of dollars necessary for his care). Another lady who was describing her medical condition was taunted and lectured by NRC Chair Michael Steele and accused of being dishonest in order to make good television. All this while their base believes and spreads absurd factual inaccuracies that originated from health care lobbyists.
The bottom line is that this is a profound moral issue for our civilization. All citizens should have health care. No health insurers should be run for a profit. This can be done in a fiscally responsible way and has been done for veterans through the VA and for seniors through medicare. Anything less and our country and its citizens will continue to live in a nation defined by 6th century barbarism where only the lives of the wealthy will be worth saving. Death panels? We already have them and they’re the executives who choose to let people die in order to fatten their paychecks.
I’m always amused to hear liberals like ‘San Francisco’ who decry ‘The Profit Motive’ in healthcare inusrance as an incentive for companies to deny coverage. Let me get this right – the incentive to make MORE money from additional customers means an insurance company is bound to provide poor service to it’s current customers.
Got that.
So, companies like The Coca-Cola Company and Pepsi have an incentive to fill only every can of soda they manufacture only half-full since their SOLE incentive is to cut costs. Right?
Wrong.
Both companies would love to have ‘San Francisco’s’ management skills if they want to drive their stock price into the gutter. Likewise, a health insurance company would only want to arbitrarily pay out a claim on every other client in order to attract throngs of new, premium-paying customers. Right? Hardly.
Life insurance and Property & Casualty insurance companies have operated profitably for centuries because they provide high quality AND low cost insurance. Insurance against low probability, highly expensive events. There is no reason why health insurance companies can’t do the same for Americans but we must get away from health insurance covering common health insurance events like broken bones, cuts and even minor surgeries. Let health savings accounts take care of that area.
We can find market-based solutions to healthcare but, like our auto, home and other insurance, we must choose the low probability, high cost events that we want to cover and then PAY for our own costs to cover everyday health issues. Let’s hope our legislators see this as the sustainable solution.
All for-profit trial lawyers should go out of business. All for-profit pharmaceutical companies should go out of business. All for-profit medical device makers should go out of business. Only the government and its’ bureaucrats (unionized of course) should profit from healthcare, yada, yada, yada.
Isn’t socialist – communism a beautiful thing? So sad the former unethical and barbaric U.S.S.R. had to self-implode due to a lack of for-profit non-state owned, ran and administered enterprise.
So you think profiting from selling Coca Cola is the same thing as profiting from people purchasing health insurance that will keep them and their families alive? This is the type of immoral thinking that typifies the right.
Michael,
Unfortunately, our country is filled with Neanderthals like yourself who don’t understand the difference between communism and socialism and probably couldn’t define either without looking them up on Wikipedia.
You decry government bureaucrats without realizing that the bureaucrats who run the VA and Medicare make tens of thousands of dollars, not tens of millions like the executives at health insurance companies, which is exactly why the VA and Medicare can deliver superior care at much lower costs. The VA system is the most cost effective and highest quality system in the world and would only benefit and become more efficient if more people could buy into it, which is precisely what veterans advocate- expanding the VA system to allow coverage for extended families. This larger pool of customers would lower overall costs and more money could be directed to actual treatment and prevention, which would lower costs even further. There is no reason this program could not be expanded to the general public, which would only magnify all of these benefits.
But reasoning with you is a fruitless endeavor because you’re wrapped up in catch phrases like ’socialism’ (so scary). You might want to take a few history classes before you begin pointing to the economic collapse of the USSR as having any parallel with our heath care reform (and you may want to take some English courses to learn how to conjugate verbs and form contractions).
1- WE CAN’T AFFORD THIS. Medicare will go broke in as soon as eight years, with social security close behind. We have no plan for bailing these programs out, yet we are ready to implement a giant new government entitlement.
2-depending on the poll, 70% to 85% of Americans are happy with their health care arrangements. This would indicate a fix is needed, not reform of the entire system. If the dems. would limit the scope of their “FIX” to cost control and accessibility, they may get some traction.
1- We can’t afford NOT to reform health care. The tremendous costs of health care and the poor return on that investment are crippling the nation’s economy and have contributed to the recession. By eliminating the trillions of unnecessary dollars that go to the middle man (health insurers and their administrative fees, huge salaries, bonuses, etc.), citizens of this country will save vast amounts of money which can then be spent to stimulate other aspects of the economy.
2- More than 70% of people support health care reform, and a solid majority favor a public option (while most of the rest are not well educated enough to make a sound decision- see Michael and Billy Bob above).
3- No civilized nation in the modern world should go without universal health care. The wealthiest nation in the world should be able to provide access to health care for all its citizens, just like other less wealthy (but better educated and more civilized) nations already do.
I was just coming to the scene of this little dust-up to rip Mr. Kyle a new .. you know what … but I see a number of previous commenters have beaten me to the punch, esp SF perspective and Art at Large. Nice job, people. Well done.
One Voice for WORLD LEADER. It knows everything. It’s highly intellectual. It speaks for all of us because it knows more than any of us. It’s a moral imperative that One Voice make all of our personal choices for us. And correct our homework.
If the Republicans had been willing to make a few need changes when they were in power, even a few, then this whole issue would be off the table. Most Republicans are not willing to compromise at all, so it is an all-or-nothing situation. Either the government has control or we keep the system that we have. Most people think that the system must be changed to survive. However, it seems that only Dems. have come up with ideas.
Republicans have really done a poor job over the past decade in this area. In fact, they have done nothing but shoot down ideas that others have developed. This is not leadership. This is lazy politics at best and corruption at its worst. Insurance companies have been pulling the strings in this nation for far too long.
1-…..Can’t afford not to is wearing a little thin. And trillions of dollars going to Insurance companies? Think this number is a teeny bit high. Also, I have no problem with Obama taking the $500 billion in waste out of medicare and medicaid right now. This would go a long way toward controling costs.
2-…..Vast majority prefer a public option. I don’t think so.
3- I did not say there should not be access for everyone. I said this was one of the problems which need to be fixed. You don’t have to reform a whole system to fix a problem.
Hey, Gordon….
Tom, at 7:16 is right. Mr. Wingfield accuses President Obama of “fiscal mismanagement”, but all that spending was necessary to ward off another Depression. When the gov’t is the only one with money, they need to spend on programs or have the economy shrivel and die. The Republican plan of freezing all gov’t spending except for the military, medicare, etc. would have been like bleeding a patient in order to cure fatigue.
Trudy has a point, too. The Republicans don’t give a sh*t how many die from lack of affordable health care. The Republicans were getting their massive donations from the insurance companies, business was booming, and the Republicans were getting theirs, so screw you, jack. Not even the actual physicians who were elected to high office could be bothered to think about the suffering and dying of the poor, the afflicted, and the uninsured.
As for the “unsustainability” of medicare and medicaid, didn’t our former chimp-in-chief George Bush come to office (well, had the office handed to him by SCOTUS justices picked by his daddy) with a budget surplus? And didn’t he blow through that surplus in no time, and then rack up massive debt, and then oversee the collapse of our financial system due to lack of oversight, regulation, and the fostering of pure greed?
Bush did the same thing when he became governor of Texas. He took a budget surplus and turned it into record-level debt, and then he left office early, ensuring that he didn’t have to live with his own irresponsibility.
Billy Bob, the incentive is not necessarily “more” customers, it is “better” customers. This is why Americans with pre-existing conditions are often left without insurance. Further, because the market is so consolidated and the bargaining power between the parties is so lopsided, companies can and do profit from denying a variety of services.
And to the free-market advocates here, you should all be advocating for a single-payer system. An employment-based private health care system is really quite bad for business. A single-payer system would free workers to take new jobs, go back to school, and start new businesses without worrying about their health care disappearing. There is a reason why no other industrialized democracy is rushing to create an American-style health system……………
Let me get this right – the incentive to make MORE money from all customers means an insurance company is bound to provide poor service to all customers
FYT
Every penny of profits, is a penny of health care denied.
Ideologues? Yeah, I hope so. We need SOMEONE who will think of what SHOULD be–what health care should look like–and then find ways to make it a reality. Better an ideologue than a demagogue!
I’ve read a few of your pieces. You or your editors need to tighten up your writing. You seem to start with an idea and jump there, without regard for logical progression.
I think any good Republican should be asking “What would Jesus do?”
Any good Republican knows Jesus would be appalled by the liberal “health care for all!” garbage. Heck if Jesus were to come back now He’d make a killing. Since obviously Jesus would represent Republican family values, I’m sure Jesus would want to get in on the action. I say of course Jesus is a Republican. Duh.
Forget the free miracle bs. More like free market. I’d say Jesus would end up pretty damn rich. Think of the pay days He could bring in.
Jesus’ “Christian Angels Saving Humans,” or CASH for short, would be a hit on the stock market.
CASH price guide:
Return sight to blind…$100,000.00
Return legs to cripple….$100,000.00
Wedding wine service…$10,000.00
Fish for a 1000….$10,000.00
It is God’s will that we deny healthcare to immigrants, he only truly loves white southerners. Don’t let Obama indoctrinate your offspring with the word of the devil.
You want real competition that will bring health care costs back to reality?
Have health insurance act like all other kinds of insurance, only to be used in catastrophic and unforseen circumstances. Give all this money to the people, and REQUIRE them to maintain HSAs (along with their own required contributions). They use the money for routine medical care, and insurance for stuff like accidents and serious illnesses. For other, more elective stuff, use credit. Wanna bet people would start shopping around and prices would come down? Nobody shops around right now. Why would they? Someone else is paying for it (the insurance company).
The biggest problem in our system is the “employer-based comprehensive health insurance” infrastructure that our tax dollars currently incentivize. It’s broken, bloated, and one of the big reason why health care is so expensive. Scrap it and start over!
I really like the personal attack, it so reveals the inner two year old within you.
1 – You idiot, government is the ultimate worst MIDDLE MAN imaginable.
2- Knucklehead, the vast majority do not prefer the public option and that same vast majority knows what it dislikes about the inherent problems of healthcare, which is…
3- Lamo, systemic and that means reforming the health insurance industry alone will not correct what is wrong or begin to address all the other parts involved in the healthcare industry that drive-up the cost that has priced healthcare out of reach the average U.S. Citizen.
Now junior, if you have something intelligent to say I’m waiting. – Tough I’ll admit it’s just a poor use of my time. Otherwise, if your intention is to get into a slap down match-up you silly little egotistical humanoid, be forewarned pantie-waste that you are dealing with a crusty old ’struction guy that can make a salty old sailor’s mama cry.
That is pretty much what would happen under what I support but what I want would give alot more to the healthcare consumer via mutual insuring non-profit consumer owned, ran and administered healthcare cooperatives: Which under Waxman-Dingle HR 3200 or under Price HR 3400 cannot happen. However, it is under consideration by the “gang of six” in the Senate finance committee.
A model of this can be examined at the link below. (Of course, even this model can be improved, without destroying the private sector healthcare industry or proxy of hidden government owning running and controlling them a.k.a. No Trojan Horse)
70% want univeral healthcare? Who are you asking? I have insurance. If the government option comes available what would keep my job from dumping me off on it? It certaintly would be cheaper for them.
“The RSC plan also calls for, among other things, covering pre-existing conditions and making insurance portable from job to job — or to joblessness, as the case may be. It would foster competition, making life less comfortable for insurers that are fat and unresponsive.”
Is the real rub, If you look at the Bush Drug Medicare program, we are transfering taxpayer money to the drug companies because the drug program war written by the drug companies for the drug companies. Last week Saxby Chambliss at his invitation only speech in Augusta, when asked about what changes he would make to insurance coverages, dodged. None of our Republicans Congressmen are talking about controls over insurance companies. I am not happy with the House’s 5 insurance plans but they at least have a plan, please provide us with a link to the Republican plan to regulate insurance companies.
Tax credits? Amazes me when the republicans (many of which now falsely call themselves Libertarians in these post Bush-Era days) keep going to their same failed policies. Please let me know when the Bush tax breaks are going to kick in. Been years now.
8 long years on power, 6 with total control. Please present to me the health care plan that the republicans presented during that time. You won’t find any. Though what you WILl find is that we added millions more to the uninsured ranks, as well as premiums that have doubled. Add to that the profit margins that increased for the insurance companies during that time. Did they “trickle down” their massive profits and cut rates? Nope, they “rationed” even more to become MORE profitable.
Please do speak more about the privatezation of Social Security (where people were going to be able to invest their own portions in the stock market). If we had gone that route (which Bush and many of the other neo-cons pushed for over and over), there would be MILLIONS right now with worthless accounts and many old people standing inline at soup kitchens just to get a slice of bread.
Republicans (and phony libertarians): always making noise, yet never coming up with a better idea or one that works…but when they had control… they literally train wrecked not only our own nation, but most around the world as well.
By definitiion, Something is not health insurance if the identical premium is paid by all and those with pre-existing conditions must be accepted for coverage at the same personal cost. Then, when one is unable to pay for the insurance, for whatever reason except not desiring to pay someone else’s bills, taxpayers foot the bill. Yes, this is financing health care but it is not health insurance. This does tno even consider coverage, deductables, etc..
The fact that the Democrats won’t allow folks opt out of their health care scheme should tell you something–they’re more interested in controlling you than in making sure you get the kind of health care you want.
Thank you. That post served to substantiate my assertion that you’re an uneducated Neanderthal. You proved that point much better than I could have.
So you go from using silly catch phrases like socialism (which you think will somehow shock and scare people) to complaining about the government being a middle man. You may want to try to include some substance instead of repeating every cliche you’ve heard from the other uneducated hicks on your construction site. There’s a reason you get paid to stand around with a shovel- your intellect is not advanced enough for someone to pay you for using your mind. And please don’t scare me with the threat of cursing at me over the internet (snicker).
I already explained at 10:11 why the VA and Medicare work and why that model would work on a larger scale. You have done nothing to rebut that assertion. The majority of the country, the 53% who voted for Obama, support a public option. Just because elderly high school dropouts like yourself have been disrupting town hall meetings does not mean you are not in a small minority. If three people yell really loudly it doesn’t magically transform them into 30 million people. It’s still just three people yelling loudly.
Finally, reform will indeed fix problems. That is kind of the definition of reform, not to mention its very purpose. But I wouldn’t expect a construction worker to be able to process the intricacies of the issue. Stick to standing around watching someone else hammering nails. And if you would like to make a point, however daft, you might want to learn to write complete sentences. That’s why you shouldn’t have dropped out of 8th grade.
I don’t know where to start with your diatribe full of left wing talking points. You are simply full of misinformed hate. There is always people on both sides who offer opinions, and reasonable people can disagree. Then there are people like you who simply take up space on a blog.
There is always people on both sides who offer opinions, and reasonable people can disagree.
Never said or even thought anything differently Gordon. However, if insults are considered fair game, then I can’t play in that ballpark too?
Then there are people like you who simply take up space on a blog.
Then again there are people like you Gordon that make claims that other people’s opinions simply take up space on a blog. Make use of what occupies the space between your ears Gordon and do delight me with posting your diatribe or “thoughtful reasonable opinion” as you might choose to call it on what you see as my left-wing talking points?
1- If you’re tired of listening to the reasoning for the need for reform, then that may say something about you, but it says nothing about the validity of the argument. The VA (government run health care) provides the highest quality care in the world and does so at far less cost than private insurance. We don’t need to wonder about theoretical circumstances; we have an actual working model in the VA. If it is expanded to the general public the costs will decrease further. That’s one of the most basic rules of economics- higher quantities translate to lower costs- and it’s why Walmart has become the biggest company and biggest employer in the country. But the VA (govt run health care) also provides the best quality as well. It is simply the best and most cost effective option by far.
2- Just because you don’t want to believe that the majority of Americans support reform doesn’t mean it’s not true. About 70% support reform and about 55% support some sort of public option, and 55% has always been considered a solid majority (I used the word “solid”, not “vast”) in political terms.You seem to believe that facts conform to your opinion, when in reality your opinion may or may not conform to facts (in your case not), depending on the facts.
3- I will argue that the current private system is so corrupt and inefficient that it needs a complete overhaul. While we disagree on this, I believe if we get a strong bill passed, years from now it will prove to have been a great turning point in our history.
You’re really not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you? (Although you are most certainly a tool.) You didn’t realize that Gordon @ 10:01 was not addressing you, but missed that I was addressing you at 9:56. And you attacked Gordon, who is actually a right wingnut like yourself. Very funny.
You are a perfect example of why the Founding Fathers created a republic and not a democracy (I bet that’s news to you). The ignorant masses would run this country into the ground (see the last 8 years).
Michael H. Smith, you want the government to take care of you, don’t you? Be a big boy and pay your own bills. If you and the other Obama acoloytes had been doing this for the last couple of years, we wouldn’t have had this mortgage meltdown.
The government should assure that all citizens have access to high quality health care to support good health status. The government should not be a health care provider.
How is it ideological to offer a public health care plan as a choice for coverage?
How is it that health status and well being are considered more preferably as corporate commodities, rather than an individual right?
How much is your life worth to your health insurer with the singular goal of profit maximization?
I want a President that wakes up everyday and asks himself two questions: How can I keep America safe (yes, we’re still in a war)? and What can I do to help the economy (hello, we’re in a recession!)? Unfortunately our President is obsessed with this health care mess instead. He’s been a real disappointment so far.
The author and some of those commenting are not obviously informed about the facts of this issue. This also applies to Mr. Barnett. His theory was for the states to ask for a convention and “scare” Congress into proposing his amendments. Problem is, Mr. Barnett was not aware of public record. It shows all 50 states have submitted 750 applications for an Article V Convention far in excess of the 34 applications required. The applications can be read at http://www.foavc.org.
Then there are those who say they oppose a convention and use the argument that all that is needed is obey the Constitution as it currently is and there is no need a for a convention. The problem comes that Article V is part of the current Constitution. Its terms have been satisfied. Therefore convention is required. If we follow the argument of these people, therefore they support a convention because we would be obeying the Constitution “as is” meaning if the states apply, a convention must be called.
But they oppose a convention meaning they really don’t want it obeyed “as is”; what they want is a Constitution obeyed “as they see it.” In short, they want to scrap the Constitution just as much as those they criticize, they just want scrap it for their political benefit, not theirs.
You’re really not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?
You wouldn’t even make into the tool shed. The name Gordon used was NOT Michelle. See literacy (reading comprehension) is not a strong point with you.
You are a perfect mindless example of why people like you don’t understand what the Founding Fathers created. We are a “Representative Republic” not simply a Republic. (That would be news to you if only you could comprehend the difference)
The ignorant masses like you used more than the last 8 years to run this country into the ground.
Government should also not be the healthcare administer or manager. In fact government should not be in any business that would compete against a for-profit entity in the private sector.
As in football, pre-season where the starters play relatively little, bears little resemblance to the outcome of the season. And the Birther-Bircher’s-Nine Finger Bill’s (don’t stick your Repubozo finger in someone’s mouth without obtaining prior consent is apparently not something little Repubozos are taught) bear no resemblance to a football coach trying out his roster.
The new kid, Kyle Wingfield has killed a lot of trees lately to write non-sensical column after column with the Repubozos’ favorite MO–they don’t read and research ANYTHING to back up their wild, fraudulent, delusional, and crazy claims that are pure fiction.
Wingfield writes here:
Most important is that Americans seem repulsed by the idea that this issue will be settled on ideological grounds. People consider health care far too personal a matter to be subject to someone else’s political philosophy…Democrats can talk about Republican “intransigence” all they want. But Democrats have all the votes they need for health reform if they can convince the public — not to mention all of their own members — that a government-run “public option” for health insurance is about pragmatism, not ideology.
So far, they haven’t done that any more than Bush-era Republicans convinced the public that their goal of privatizing Social Security wasn’t merely ideological.
.
“Americans Seem Repulsed by the idea…and Democrats haven’t convinced the public” says Wingfield:
Let’s look at the five latest, largest polls on what Americans actually want, something that Wingfield the Wingnut has displayed he’s completely incapapble of doing.
September 2009 Major Surveys on Public Option: What the Country Thinks of the Repuboputzotards: What does America Really Think Backed up By the Four Largest Polls Recently as opposed to Wingnut’s fiction:
A new study by SurveyUSA puts support for a public option at a robust 77 percent, one percentage point higher than where it stood in June.
* The memo cited a CBS poll from September 1st, saying it found strong support for action. What does it say on the public plan? Sixty percent support, 34% oppose.
* The memo cited a CNN poll done through August 31st, saying it found deep public dismay with the system. What does it say on the public plan? Fifty-five percent support, 41% oppose.
* The memo cited a Kaiser poll from August 11th, saying it found overwhelming support for consumer protections. What does it say on the public plan? Fifty nine percent support, 38% oppose.
I argue that it is, indeed, in the People’s best interests that the government has sufficient influence over: access to health care, quality of health care and sustained health improvement; since the maintenance of health status is not an individual concern, but a national priority. For example, one should not have the right to refuse immunization from a highly virulent and lethal infectious disease, if, say, one infection leads to thirty with seventy-percent mortality.
Since government should not be in competition with for-profit health insurers, then, I will infer from your response, you do not mind having the value of your life “appraised” by actuaries and “bean counters”.
Coops are dead and haven’t worked in 30 years. In Grassley and Conrad’s state, they were complete failures and died. Triggers are a complete joke–we’ve had a big Trigger since Truman and the other Trigger was a horse and they’re both dead.
Tax credits would do nothing to stop the exponential increase in insurance premiums and deductibles that are causing one bankruptcy every 30 seconds, 430 Georgians to lose insurance per day, 14000 Americans to lose insurance per day when they get sick.
They won’t do a thing to touch the underinsured’s not being able to afford any more increases or the insurance they have now.
They won’t touch the Medicare Part D donut which the Repubozos passed for big pharma in 2003. Wingfield does not realize that the Repubozos and Blue Dogs are hookers taking in hundreds of thousands this summer and millions in their careers from insurance and pharamceutical companies.
The Repubozos and Blue dogs are hookers, and Insurance and Big Pharama are the johns in a Bunny Ranch paradigm that has existed for years.
And the seats that are in jeapordy in 2010 if public option is not passed, aren’t progressive seats at all. Progressives are safe in their districts. The Blue Dogs will be fired if they refuse a public option, and we don’t care. A Blue Dog is as worthless as a Repubozo on the take. Leiberman and Specter vote with Repubozos as do Conrad and the rest of the Blue Dogs.
So it doesn’t matter at all if a Blue Dog or Repubozos win their districts in 2010–they’re completely the same –hookers on the take from their corporate masters.
Maybe Wingfiredl thinks it’s pure accident that Blue Dog Evan Bayh’s wife has no job, but gets a $400 grand income for years simply sitting on the Board of Wellpoint for years.
What’s going to happen is that the Ben Nelsons and Kent Conrads are going to find out how little their power is, and the Senate Finance Six representing 2.2% of the country is going to find out what happens when they come up against Schumner and Dick Durbin who are roomates and the 2nd and 4th most powerful men in the Senate. Considering Harry Reid is polling worse than “mah mommy gave me lunch money to use on mah nookie” Ensign, Durbin may arguably be more poerful than Reid these days.
Breast Cancer in Wingfield’s wife requiring a triad of surgery, chemo, radiatino–she gets’ dropped in a nanosecond
Malpractice caps of 250 grand modestly reduce the doctor’s premium for malpractice insurance per specialty, but they do nothing for an American’s cost of HEALTH insurance, and Texas where there are 250 grand caps has illustrated this perfectly.
The Robert Wood Johnson study on malpractice recently butresses this.
Michigan, and Oregon and 3 other states have seen insurance premium rate increases by the two insurance companies dominating 94% of the US averaging near 30% in the last two weeks as the insurance gougers rush to jack up premiums and deductibles before legislation.
And Kaiser’s large study projects rates to triple within the next ten years if no reform is passed.
The House reiterated to Obama in it’s conference call Friday (Wingfield is of course unaware of this because he can’t dig and cover the news) that progressive are dead serious–no public option no bill.
You infer wrongly about what I do support. We would likely disagree as to the degree of acceptable government influence and certainly we disagree the maintenance of health status is not an individual concern.
Since you obviously haven’t take the time to trouble yourself to find out what I support to compete with private insurers you can review this link below as an example.
We put more money into health care and get worse results than other wealthy countries in measurable, concrete terms like infant mortality and life expectancy. This is just a fact.
Personally, I want my doctor and Coca-Cola to have differing business models. I don’t care if Coca-Cola exists to make a profit. I don’t want my doctor and my insurance company to attempt to make a profit off my health care for reasons that have been cited here over and over. I want the people involved to be able to make a living wage, of course, but I don’t want them looking for ways to cut costs with my health so they can have more profit.
For me, it boils down to this. The liberals are seeing an existing problem with U.S. healthcare. It’s a very real problem; too many people are uninsured, and even the insured are one major catastrophe away from financial devastation.
The conservatives are afraid of shadows–problems that “might” exist if the government takes over healthcare. Well, I’ll take genuine solutions to genuine problems over sticking my head in the sand, pretending that there is no problem, and yelling that the sky might fall if anyone actually addresses it.
People in those terrible socialist countries are happier with their healthcare than we are.
I have health insurance; by most accounts, it’s comprehensive (Aetna). We certainly do pay a lot for it through my husband’s employer. However, my insurance company has denied coverage of a surgery that my doctors (multiple doctors) feel is necessary for my health. Government healthcare options in other countries generally fund that particular surgery, because they are more concerned with health outcomes than profit. Aetna, on the other hand, wants to make money. It’s hard to fault them for that, but why would we as a society choose this? Because we are afraid of the government? How profoundly sad that we (particularly in the South) have been brainwashed into kneejerk anti-government reactions on principle, despite what is in our best interests.
Who runs government? People.
Who runs private businesses? People.
For some things, government is better; for others, private enterprise. It’s time we make the decision to divorce healthcare from a pure profit motive.
Not many argue against healthcare reforms. A great number do argue against another government run healthcare program, which will lead to a government take over of healthcare.
We’re passing public option because we’re tired of Insurats nce Company and Pharmaceutical company influence. They have been standing in the way of what we can Rx and how we can apply what we learn in keeping up because they drop our patients when they get sick.
I just got off the phone with Dem Rep. Raul Grijalva, one of more than two dozen House progressives who held a conference call with President Obama today to discuss the public option’s fate.
Says Grijalva: The call left him with no doubt that Obama understands House libs are dead serious about not backing any bill without a public plan in it.
“He understands how serious we are about this,” said Grijalva, one of the co-chairs of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, in describing the tone of the conversation. “For many of us this is not a political dance. He got that point.”
Grijalva says Obama asked how far liberals were willing to compromise on the public option, another sign, Grijalva noted, that he grasps that they mean what they say. He added that Obama asked a number of “frank” and “probing” questions, though he declined to say precisely what they were.
In another newsworthy tidbit, Grijalva says Obama signaled that discussions about the public option would continue even after his big speech before a joint session of Congress next week. That may be an indication that Obama won’t be mentioning the public option in his speech, but doesn’t want liberals to despair at that prospect.
Either the public optioin passes, or there won’t be a bill passed.
So here’s the question for September: When will Democrats follow suit? Question from Wingnut Wingfield:
We won’t “follow suit.” We clobbered Repubozos in the election and we voted for health care reform and public option. 83 House members signed a letter I linked above saying we won’t have a bill without public option. We don’t have to follow your suit. We beat your candidates by a mile.
Gordon…
You accuse me of merely taking up space on a blog, but I didn’t insult you the way you have me.
And my “left wing talking-points” don’t come from the DNC…they come from having been priced out of the health insurance market, and losing my job, house, land, and equity after becoming seriously ill and needing a series of operations.
I speak from experience.
Sure, reasonable people can agree…but it is you who has resorted to the insult.
I also notice that you don’t offer any alternatives to the problem of health-care…just negativity.
I also notice that you didn’t comment on my original post. You reply to my second post wherein I support the opinions of people you disagree with.
Sour grapes.
Lets cut to the chase. We all want a better healthcare insurance programjust not the one currently on the table. We need to create laws that include no pre-existing conditions, true portability, and lower premuims. So adopt a plan that reuires all insurance companies to underwrite policies that take into account all 350 million people with no health questions and require all people to have health insurance with a minimum of catastrophic care and include option s for everything else based on sound underwirting policies. this would decrease the cost of insurance for everyone probably around 20%. Have the government subsidize the insurance on a income based scale for lower to middle income people. Keep it in the hand of private industry with government supervision and it will not cost tax payers a penny more.
We currently have an unfunded liabilty of $56 billion for Social Sercurity and Medicare which amounts to $483,000 per household now. What would UHC do? We need to get our Federal house in order before we take on any more unfunded liabilties
As it is, we’re about to get health care reform that measures human beings only in corporate terms of a cost-benefit analysis. I mean this is topsy-turvy — we should be treating health as a condition, not a commodity.
BTW – that unfunded liability of $56 billion for Social Security would not be there had the government not raided it for pet projects. If we DON’T get health care reform, the costs to people and the rising costs of health care will continue to go through the roof – man is a pig when it comes to making money off anything. See the above quote!
With adequate funding Medicaid could enroll eligible citizens and health departments charge on a sliding scale so why don’t we use these current methods while some other solution is worked out? Also, health departments treat all comers last time I heard.
Thank him
No one has talked about the stock market for months, why? Cause it’s UP.
Thank him
American car company’s just posted a huge profit because of “cash 4
clunkers”.
Thank him
The American government just made more than 4 Billion Dollars from the
loans that it made to banks and stands to make a ton more to help pay
down the deficit that was created when the last Administration
sqaundered our surplus and redirected it to their buddies in the war
contracting business.
Thank Him
Americans can now go to more places safely globally now that we as
Americans are looked at differently compared to the last administration.
Thank Him
He is trying to make sure every citizen has access to basic health
care, but you don’t care unless your “social” Medicare is cut.
Thank Him
AND YOU HAVE ENOUGH NERVE TO QUESTION A FORMER HARVARD COLLEGE PROFFESOR ABOUT
TALKING TO YOUR KIDS ABOUT THE VALUE OF STAYING IN SCHOOL! HOW DARE YOU, YOU UNGRATEFUL UNCONCIOUS
BIGOTS!!!!!
YOU SHOULD THANK PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA FOR CARING ABOUT EVEN YOUR
MEAN, SELFISH, NARCACISTIC, UNDERCOVER RACIST, CAUCASION BUTT!!!!
Bill Frist and the Repubozos put Medicare on track for in the red in 8 years because they played hookers to the johns from Big Pharma with Billy Tauzin as Rahm tried to do this summer. The House has rejected it. Deal won’t fly.
Reason for the Medicare Part D donut is that Medicare can’t bid competitively via consortium like Piedmont, Emory Healthcare and every metro Atlanta and private hospital in the US does.
Shannon,M. Div.: “However, my insurance company has denied coverage of a surgery that my doctors (multiple doctors) feel is necessary for my health.” I’m reacting to an post of eight hours ago, but I’m curious. What surgery? You don’t go into much detail. Perhaps the powers at be have decided your life is not worth saving(Obamacare). Just because technology can keep you alive doesn’t mean the resouces should be allocated to it. You may not be worth it.
You think physicians and insurers shouldn’t be allowed to profit? In case you didn’t notice, most physicians are very intellegent. They are not restricted to practicing medicine. They could go onto be lawyers, engineers, hedge fund managers, celebrity chefs, politicians, ect. Do you get my drift? In my opinion the best way to “reform” heathcare is to allow the entire industry to be one big tax free enerprise zone. That will attract real innovation. what are afraid of?
Reform will Happen…get real. Our Asian creditors will not finance another debt binge by the U.S.
Treasury. Current outlays are 185% of domestic intake. It will not happen. The USA is functionally bankrupt. All of you are dreaming…………………….zzz.
Read my earlier posts, when I was responding to people who I diagree with but who weren’t just saying things like the GOP wants people to die. Notice the tone and content of their posts and my response, then compare that with your “ideas” and you will have the answer to your questions.
And by the way, if you are outraged about Republicans getting donations from insurance companies, where is that outrage about Democrats getting donations from trial lawyers, which explains why there is no tort reform in H.R. 3200. And I suppose the financial system problems had nothing to do with the Democrat backed Community Reinvestment Act which forced banks to lend money based on race rather than ability to repay. Or just too many people buying homes they couldn’t afford. We all agree there should have been more regulation, but that is just another failure of the same government you want to run our health care. Since the Democrats had the Congress since 2006, why didn’t they do anything about it? No, it’s all Bush’s fault, the “chimp-in-charge”. Step away from all the emotion and do some thinking.
This democrat proposal is just expanding medicare to everyone. Medicare is going through money faster than we can print it. I am tired of hearing about 48 million people without insurance. If anyone of them gets sick or has an accident they will be treated. I doubt the figures thrown out by either side are close to being accurate anyway. I want to know how much coverage the government plan will offer and how much our taxes will go up to pay for it. So far I haven’t heard an answer to either one. Obama says he wants to offer everyone as good a coverage as he and the other politicians have. That’s a gold plated policy better than most of have with our private plans. He’s going to take my tax money and give someone who may not pay any taxes a better plan than me?
I made no distinction between Dems and Repubs when it comes to the effects of industry donations to politicians. The effects of trial-lawyer donations to politicians are just as bad as those from the health-insurance companies.
But, tort reform is simply a bad idea in and of itself…people who have legitimate grievances are subjected to an arbitrary limit on damages. A lifetime of suffering, or a death, would be paid off at a pittance, which the insurance companies would love. They could compensate for permanent suffering or death for the cost of a morning’s work from their CEO.
A Democratic Congress in 2006 did not fix the problem, that’s true. But they were saddled with a Republican President. And wasn’t there also plenty of time for Bush and the Republican Congress to do something, as well? They had 6 years. They also had the advantage of controlling all 3 branches of government, as opposed to a Clinton-era splitting of control. And, don’t forget that Bill Clinton faced a hostile Congress led by the likes of Tom (The Hammer) DeLay. They had the votes to overturn a Clinton veto. There is plenty of blame to go around, but it was during Bush’s tenure that the culture of de-regulation took off.
Much of our financial crisis was caused by credit default swaps, bundles of mortgages very likely to turn sour. The Republican Congress during the last months of the Clinton administration specifically forbad the regulation of these complex and paper-bound financial instruments, which was really the crux of the problem. The Republican ideal of “getting out of the way of business” is what gutted the oversight and regulatory functions. Again, the Republican Congress that did that had the votes to override a potential Clinton veto.
And, finally, it would seem to me that since you are the one who offers insult ( “…do some thinking”), that it is indeed YOU who should step away from all the emotion.
Now that you have made your reply a bit clearer as to whom you are speaking to I suggest you do the same in regards to reading MY earlier comments, ALL of them on this blog and others. The confusion will soon vanish rest assured. I have been staunchly against HR 3200 from the very beginning and remain staunchly against it (this would include any other future government ran healthcare program).
I do not favor HR 3400 either and if you happen to read what I posted on Jay Bookman’s blog about what I’d want to see in healthcare cooperatives you’ll find I went after trial lawyers, Unions and Pharmaceutical companies, etc. none of which the Democrats would dare touch. On the Republican side I went after Insurance companies, HMOs’, and even a better means of funding things like medical savings accounts and medical scholarships to produce the needed doctors that are now and will be even more so in the future in short supply – especially to serve rural areas and in some urban areas as well (all without creating any new taxes).
Step away from all the emotion and do some thinking.
Thanks for the advice but I’ve did that along time ago. As you’ll notice I didn’t drag into the discussion other issues like housing, financing and the incompetence of politicians in allowing my emotions to divert my attentions from the healthcare debate at hand.
ArtatLarge – Have you ever put a young man or young lady through college and medical school?
If you have then you should know tort reform is necessary to limit punitive damages on pain and suffering and why trial lawyers shouldn’t be protected like sacred cows. The dreams of winning at the game of “medical legal lotto” should be forever removed.
Before you ask me if I ever put a young man or young lady through college and medical school, the answer is yes.
All this ranting about “government run health care”, and “competition” in health care is puzzling. No one has proposed government-run health care; all proposals for reform leave health care in the hands of private physicians, clinics, and hospitals.
What is proposed as the public option is a program like Medicare.
Medicare is a government-coordinated health care program that is far more satifactory and efficient than any private health insurance program. Medicare relies totally on private practitioners to deliver health care. Medicare subcontracts claims processing and other clerical functions to the lowest bidders, usually insurance companies. There is no large staff of government employees running Medicare; it works just fine as long as Congress stays out of it.
Private insurance companies have no place in basic health care coverage. They are the problem, not the solution. They make money by denying coverage and rejecting claims, not by providing reliable coverage to all applicants. Their administrative overhead is high compared to Medicare, about 25% vs. 6%.
The solution to the wacky American health care mess is a Medicare-like program for basic heath care, with private insurance companies offering supplemental coverage to those willing and able to pay for it.
I’d don’t mind medical providers (doctors, clinics, HMOs, etc.) competing to provide the best health care, but I don’t want to rely for basic health care on insurance companies that cherry-pick their clients, then try to find ways to cancel my coverage or deny treament if I become seriously ill.
Use your heads, people. Don’t get tripped up by muddled terminology and outdated concepts. Right now, reform is about the way we allocate and pay for medical services, not about medical practice.
Medicare is government owned, ran(managed) and administered program.
I do not want government allocating, re-allocating or paying for my medical services, which has everything to do with the doctor-patient relation in the practice of medicine.
If anything is a dated failed concept, it is socialism. The Public Option is one more step on the socialist pathway.
The Public Option is not required to end cherry picking, preexisting claims, lifetime caps or denial of or limiting treatment. All of these health insurance industry practices could be eliminated in one law without any new government program or one more additional penny sent to the government.
Do you realize that Medicare and Medicaid are bankrupt? They have tens of trillions of unfunded liabilities. They are unsustainable. And you want to extend that model to everyone? That would be like extended the model of government California uses to the entire United States because the weather is nice out there. Of course people like Medicare – they get something that NO ONE PAYS FOR. We’ve see recently what happens when people get things (houses) that no one pays for. IT DOESN’T WORK!! The vast majority of people are going to have to have significant service reductions (another word for rationing), or the Chinese say enough is enough and stop lending us money. I can’t believe they are still doing that now.
The problem with R’s is that they underregulate. The problem with D’s is that they overparticipate. Government should be like an umpire in a baseball game. R’s want the batter to call balls and strikes, and D’s want to give the batter 4 strikes because he is not a good hitter. Neither works.
We should have private health insurance, but government should keep them from dropping people when they get sick, limit how much they can raising premiums on an individual when they get sick, limit how much punitive damages (NOT medical payments) can be awarded, help on the portability issue, etc.
Upon the singing of this bill into law anywhere within the jurisdiction of the United States of America, any entity inuring the health and well being of any U.S. Citizen shall sell health insurance to any U.S. Citizen applicant and shall not be permit to set lifetime caps, cancel health insurance coverage for any reason other than non-payment of premiums or limit in any fashion whatsoever full payment for the treatment of any medical condition as prescribed under the advice and care of a licensed physician within the jurisdiction of the United States of America.
Okay socialist libs there you have it. Your excuse for a socialist government single payer Public Option program and whining about greedy insurance companies has just been taken away. I’ll leave any other legal details to the Congress, while the whimpering lot that remains dries-up those big crocodile tears. (sniffle, sniffle)
Now, want to talk about reforms correcting the trial lawyers and tort reform, BIG GREEDY PHARMA (which is far more profitable than the greedy health insurance industry), medical device makers, waste, fraud and abuse within the healthcare system etc., etc.
Thanks for the link Bill. A convention should be under way or should have been already convened. Bring it on. First item to address is the commerce clause found in Article One.
And what would you call Georgia legislatures like Judson Hill who wants to ban the Federal government from “imposing” health care on its citizens? Obviously Mr. Hill is too STUPID to understand the meaning of the word “option.” He is just another jerk-wad politician trying to score cheap political points by whipping his rabid conservative base up into a frenzy with a lie. So typical. But I doubt Kyle would EVER call out another right wing idiot.
The posts by “Voice” and “Art” and the rest of the left here are nothing more than an expression of their jealousy and contempt for the successful. “Voice” and his pseudo-intellectual rants citing bogus statistics, along with his personal attacks on anyone who disagrees, are as boring as the speeches from Obama and the “Members” of Congress.
One more, “I don’t want anyone profiting off of my misery…” tirade will be toooooooo much. If any of you have a JOB you are profiting off of someone’s misery. Sell Shoes? Someone does not have shoes and therefore you are profiting from their misery.
Do you want what England, France and the other “socialized medicine” countries have? Doctors and nurses educated in Third World countries who are hardly able to communicate and have far fewer skills than those we are currently blessed to have in the US.
Lawyers are the most egregious examples of “profiting from misery” because their pals in Congress pass laws allowing the rest to avoid tort reform and profit from someone’s MISERY. The state of Texas passed tort reform and MD’s and medical personnel are moving there and health care costs are low.
From “Voice”, “The VA provides the best care…” etc., etc. That is simply untrue. The best medical care in the US is generally accepted to be at the Mayo Clinic. Guess where health costs are among the lowest in the nation? That is right, the area around the Mayo Clinic.
As in most problems, the health care issue is a States Rights issue. The states also have the RIGHT under the Constitution to decide their own solutions to health care problems within their boundaries. The Congress is acting outside the limits set by the Constitution and should not be involved.
California, with the election of Jerry Brown in the 70’s, started the walk down the path the current clown in the White House is attempting to take the entire country. The result? California is bankrupt and people are leaving the state in droves.
What took California down the path to ruin? The answer – public employee unions, green initiatives that would produce thousands of jobs (NOT), cash for clunkers, opposition to the building of power plants, and more and more of the socialist agenda – including initiatives that would require tax increases that would actually produce LESS revenue.
California is an example of the future of the US if the Democrats and Republicans are not voted out of Congress in favor of politicians who not only take an oath to uphold the Constitution but actually abide by that oath.
Each and every incumbent should be defeated in 2010.
I am certainly not jealous of others’ success. I live pretty comfortably, as do most people with advanced educations. However, I am repulsed by people like yourself and the “I got mine so screw everyone else” attitude. That’s exactly the type of immorality I’m talking about. I actually care if poorer people and their families have access to the same type of health care I do. How can you live with yourself?
So you’ve taken a lot of statistics courses? Somehow I doubt whether you have the prerequisite knowledge to discern whether a statistic is bogus or not. Please check the statistics cited at 8:16 and let me know what the methodological flaws in those analyses were. I have a feeling I’ll be waiting a couple years for a response while you take some basic statistics courses.
Your reasoning suggesting that profiting from selling anything is the same as profiting from denying people medical treatment is both obtuse and intellectually disingenuous, which in turn makes it unethical. Shoes are not relevant to the conversation, but simple minds obviously need to oversimplify to the point of distortion (see your post and the town hall meetings).
The Mayo Clinic is a single entity, not a health care system, genius. The VA is the highest quality system in the world and operates at a much lower cost than our current system. Oh, and it’s also a single payer government-run plan.
You have obviously bought into the myth that England has an inferior system to our own. Next you’ll be telling us that Stephen Hawking would never have survived under the UK medical system. Providing health care for all Americans is a moral issue. Having a nation of selfish idiots like yourself who believe in myths and superstitions, who know nothing of science or statistics, and who have perverse views of history and politics is an educational issue. Unfortunately, those issues are intricately linked.
I don’t disagree with much of what you had to say JD. Especially on the Federal government overstepping it constitutional authority in regards to the States and States Rights. However, as one lady, a small business owner in fact, told her disinterested Democrat Representative, there are over 1,300 health insurance companies in the U.S. but in California she can only purchase healthcare insurance from about 13 of these companies. True, it is the Right of the State to license and issue licenses and not that of the federal government or an individual’s right to license anything under the tenth amendment of the U.S. Constitution. However, I will have to side with Rep. Duncan Hunter and the small business lady in California: I and every U.S. citizen should be able to buy their health insurance from any entity that insures the health and well being of a U.S. Citizen within the jurisdiction of the United States of America that is licensed to sell insurance by any State in this union. No differently than when one is buying homeowners insurance, auto insurance or life insurance. I don’t fear honest competition or the creation of more honest competition than presently exists within the capitalist market in order to bend the cost curve on healthcare insurance in making it affordable and potentially improve the quality of healthcare. And I don’t consider government honest competition.
By the way, see Bill Walker’s post in the previous blog – About term limits, etc. – in regards to the Constitutional Convention that should have already been convened under Article Five.
Stephen Hawking fortunately has received medical aid outside of the the UK. Otherwise he would be a silent vegetable, not be able to speak as he does today. His computer voice came from the USA, which makes it possible for him to communicate.
Stephen Hawking has lived his entire life in the UK and two weeks ago said that he wouldn’t be alive right now if not for the fabulous care he’s received in the UK (socialist) health care system. Please forgive me if I choose to believe the words of the actual scientist over those of a construction worker from Georgia.
To the jerk (likely from New York) posing as One Voice – I’ll take the words that were spoken by that actual people involved that gave back to Stephen Hawking a voice so he could speak instead of remaining mute. You can take their words too, the next time the documentary airs on the Science Channel. The UK socialist system couldn’t do that, not even for one of their most prominent citizens who receives better than most other citizens of the UK.
Azazel – thanks for the link but it isn’t telling anything I don’t know already. Did you happen to review the link I left for you? One other thing, did you know that the crooks and liars in the pharmaceutical industry are far more profitable that those health insurance industry crooks and lairs of your discontent?
I like how people want to say they only pay a few dollars for prescriptions in these plans in other countries; they conveniently leave out that this is on top of paying like 48% of your income in taxes. The real cost of the prescription might actually be $100.
Michelle H. Smith (likely from a trailer in south Georgia),
Technology developed at a research university is a completely different issue than health care coverage. We still have some of the best universities in the world where cutting edge treatments are being developed (because there are still a few well educated people here); we have a very poor health care system that is far inferior to the British system. Did you think families living in poverty can just walk into a research university for treatment? Brilliant, just brilliant.
Healthcare insurance reform is completely different than healthcare reform which is the entire healthcare system. Which would include technology developed at a research university. Don’t seem to want to make the distinction between the two only when it suit a lame argument. The British system is so much better than our very poor healthcare system, as you really believe in the British system, then if you contract cancer be sure to go to the UK for treatment. I’ll just stay in the poor old USA where cancer survivability rates are higher and send your flowers over to Lilburn upon you return.
What I don’t need is someone who never even went to college telling me how a research university factors into the health care system. I am at a national research university, and health reform affects insurance, coverage, hospitals, private practices, and patients but has almost nothing to do with the work at research universities. Once again you have shown how little you understand the issue.
Tax credits don’t work on a cashflow basis. What good is it to people who need to pay the doctor today that as much as 15-18 months later they may see some cash out of a tax refund mechanism. Medical providers are already stretched to breaking by insolvent States that can’t pay their Medicare bills. There is no getting around the fact that if we are going to help those without health care get it, or cover portions they can’t afford, we will have to make upfront payments out of the public purse. If you’re against this, you’re against universal health care. There’s no hiding this fact in the debate.
About those poll numbers, Reform Will Happen: CBS News also has poll numbers from Sept. 1 showing that two-thirds of Americans say they don’t understand the health reforms being debated, and that a plurality of 47 percent think the government would do a worse job than private insurers of providing coverage — a big shift from just a couple of months earlier: http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/poll_healthcare_090109.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody
I still don’t think Democrats have done an adequate job of making the case for their plans. It will be interesting to see if/how President Obama steps in to change this debate into one he can win.
I applaud the civilized tone and about 95% of the content, Kyle, so even though I strongly disagree with your characterization of Obama’s initiatives, I do think this was very much the right post at the right time.
This is just like the wingnuts. When they notice they are being seen as foolish they change the tone. Now it’s Obama changed the speech. Of course they don’t have an ounce of evidence to prove this. The R’s don’t need any help to look foolish. They’ve already filled that position with themselves.
It is even worse that that. The Republican party message appears to have been hijacked by shock jock entertainment. Although their extreme messages may get ratings with the party base, they are scaring away moderates and Independents from the party. Moderates and Independents close their ears when people argue against Obama’s policies by calling them “Socialist” and when they call Obama “Hitler,” a Marxist, and a “Commie.” Right wing shock entertainers are successfully making the Republican party look nutty and like the boy who cries wolf. People are closing not opening their ears to the Republican message. The shock entertainers are putting the reasonable Republican politicians in the odd position of rejecting the nutty shock jock claims (and defending Obama e.g. Obama is not an “Arab,” Obama is a valid citizen, school children should watch the speech) and offending their base or accepting the extreme claims and looking nutty themselves. This is not a good position for the Republican party. Now that the Republicans have been found to cry wolf on Obama’s speech, it will look like they are crying wolf on healthcare. The Republicans have successfully marginalized themselves by allowing the popular right wing shock jocks to get too big, powerful, extreme, and angry for their own good.
Makes no difference to me what party the president belongs to – republican or democrat – he has no right to speak directly to children without consent from parents. Politics is for adults to be concerned about. Children have enough conflict without further conflict being offered by any president. It is impossible for a president to offer the individual consideration which children deserve in his speech. What shall we say to the child who tragically lost his parents or whose parents are drug addicts, when the president urges children to “listen to your parents:” Who will be there to console the child or clean up his mess? What about the potential arguments over politics within the schools – even if out of loyalty to one’s parents, children are taking on the republican vs. democrat debate with aggression and hostility? Regardless of the President’s intent, which I suspect is reasonably pure, the whole thing smacks of arrogance, inconsideration and is lacking a well thought out and mindful assessment of the speech’s impact.
Stop the insanity of having this foriegn born muslim communist indocrinate out innocent children with socialism and islam. We need to rise up as one great Christian nation and regain our Presidency. A vote for the Bush Cheney ticket in 2012 is a start. God Bless America. And please push for more tax cuts for the wealthy – to get this country out of obama’s depression.
Reducing this to political diatribe is totally missing the point. The Federal Government is overstepping its bounds and has been since about 1916. The government does not belong in our schools, or our lives for that matter. It’s time to take our constitution back, undo the changes toward democracy and give ourselves back to “the republic for which it stands”.
Conservatives should read The Boy Who Cried Wolf and pay attention to the moral: “Even when liars tell the truth, they are never believed. The liar will lie once, twice, and then perish when he tells the truth.”
J. W. Rittenhouse II – Right on brother! Lets start first by shutting down the Federal and State governments. The good thing about obama’s dictatorship is that we all can see what were fighting and once again, the muslims have united us like they did after 9/11. This kenyan(?) is proof at just how insane our government has become.
Dan – If obama (your massa) was telling the truth – he show us his birth certificate – apparently he is suppressing the release of his Kenyan one. So who’s the liar?
Ramguy & Rachel, Please vote Republican in 2012. The Republicans fought for the little guy by getting tax cuts for the wealthy. The wealthy obviously then have more money so some of it gets to trickle down to the low and middle class folks (the little people). Obama gave the middle class a tax break in his so caled stimulas package – loser!
Davo – In a crazy world were a muslim communist from Kenya is president of the U.S.A. The Republicans are the only thing that seperates God fearing right thinking AMERICANS from death camps.
Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012 I am completely disgusted with your ignorance and prejudice against our president. To claim your belief in name of religion is the same reason why the religion itself distants itself from like of people like you. Religion never once stated that “white” were better then other races in the world. Re read your bible and read teh descriptions that were given of people on the era. Learn the reason why your ancestors came here. Obama is nothing like Fidel Castro because if that were the case the we would not be allowed to travel to other countries and would all be in the same class. Everyone would be neither rich nor poor and the constitution just would not exist. Obama is a Christian. Kenya is a country that was torn apart because of Muslim trying to take control of the oil and thus the “Kenyans” were killed because they were Christians or displaced into refugee camps. It is now that some have been able to return to their village. And just because someones parents is a certain religion it does not mean the child is as well. We are all adults therefore can decide which religion to follow. You are just a sorry excuse for an American in this country and prove that ignorance and racism will always exist.
Normally most folks wouldn’t oppose his address to the schools. However, looking at his political background & folks he has been proven to associate with, it seems logical no parent wants him to have their childs undevided attention to discuss anything without there approval. Finally american parents are starting to take responsibility for what happens in the class room. (I applaud you!!) Even if its a very small step.
Secondly, I can’t understand the liberal mind set that when any president & his political machine: Pulosie, Reed, Franks etc. Make remarks about retirees, some of which are Vets (in Wheel chairs), mothers & fathers of children serving in the arm forces and call them un-patriotic and say this country can’t afford to provide them with health care benefits because we have a volunteer
service & they knew what they were signing up for & they must have a different definition of patriotism than he does. (Someone who hasn’t spent a day in uniform, has defended anything but his corrupt budies from Chicago; what does he have to do to reveil his true identity.
If a republican, or independent had made some of these remarks about your parents, children or family members that you know for a fact are not riot fear mungers will you ever take a stand to protect this country & your heritage. No wonder so many are ashamed to admit they voted for him. When will you!!!!
Since today is the first day of school, I have a pop quiz for you. Who said the following?
“Every time you walk through that classroom door, make it your mission to get a good education. Don’t do it just because your parents, or even the President, tells you. Do it for yourselves. Do it for your future. And while you’re at it, help a little brother or sister to learn, or maybe even Mom or Dad. Let me know how you’re doing. Write me a letter — and I’m serious about this one — write me a letter about ways you can help us achieve our goals.”
Who said it? Even suggested kids TEACH THEIR PARENTS??
a) By your response, I can only assume that you actually thought “Jeb / Liz 2012″ was a legitimate poster. I can only refer you to the repeated stereotypical ravings of the clueless idiot, “Redneck Convert”, in Bookman’s threads for more examples of negative demagoguery by someone unable to apparently make reasoned philosophical defenses of their own ideas. It would be as completely asinine as someone else posting under the pseudonym “Jimmy StewartAve” and making outlandish comments in ebonics about “gubmint cheeeeze”.
In all likelihood, you are arguing against someone who probably holds philosophical beliefs in line with yours, but who lacks even the most basic ability to explain or defend them.
b) To your comment “If it were a white president there would have never been an uproar to Obama speaking to our children.”, I contend that you show much more focus and attention to race than do those whom you oppose. My 7 year old son is not listening to PrezBO today because of his philosophies and his policies. I would opt him out of any occasion where a collectivist (that would be liberal, communist, facist, or socialist) is to be allowed to propogandize. I would also opt him out of any occasion where a thief was being celebrated. Since liberals do with legislation what thieves do with guns, that is doubly reason (collectivist & thief) to prevent that influence.
To your point, if it were a SUPPORTER OF FREEDOM, OPPORTUNITY, AND ACHIEVEMENT, -I- would have had no problem with PrezBO speaking to my son.
I don’t agree with Obama on much of anything but I can’t get all worked up over a “stay in school and get an education” speech. Daddy used to give us that speech nearly everyday growing up. He never finished high school and understood the value of an education, probably more so than a lot of people with higher educations.
This our “Blazing Saddles” moment in history (or should I say histrionics) Indeed “The sheriff (president) is …” . The republicans have succeeded in destroying all government by deceit and divisiveness.
Swami Dave posted (to Amy): To your comment “If it were a white president there would have never been an uproar to Obama speaking to our children.”, I contend that you show much more focus and attention to race than do those whom you oppose.
Here’s the thing about sublimation …. usually the person redirecting a latent feeling doesn’t realize it.
Good heaven people get a grip…education is neither democratic or republican…If the president wants to encourage children to learn he does it as a concerned American. I encourage children to learn every single day, and they don’t give a hoot what party I associate with. Focus your energy on teaching your children how to read, write and spell, encourage them to work hard, and stop spending so much time name calling and tearing down fellow american citizens.
I agree, to think that our children have to be subjected to messages like “stay in school”, “work hard”, “don’t give up”, “I believe in you”, etc…
What an outrage!
Worse yet, to think our children have to see someone who, regardless of whether they agree with him or not, has become the President of the United States.
Can you imagine the chaos that would grow if our children were constantly encouraged by successful public figures?
Utter madness I tell you!
I mean why should the government intrude on our lives when we were fine being lazy, remote, fly by night parents to begin with? I don’t need a speech, I’m like the majority of other parents and allow my child the normal 5 hours of TV a day with no physical activity and McDonalds for dinner every night. I haven’t helped them with homework in like 4 years, but doesn’t American Idol teach them everything they need to know?
How soon they forget: In 1989, President George H.W. Bush gave a 15-minute speech to students on the evils of drug use, then another in October 1991 that urged students to study hard and stay away from drugs.
House Democrats criticized Bush for the 1991 speech and accused the U.S. Department of Education of providing free political advertising to Bush, who was gearing up for his re-election bid the following year.
I fully support every president speaking often to the children of today’s public and private schools. However, it’s odd that he would emphasize personal responsibility, when all of his and his administration’s actions so far have exempted people for responsibility for their actions: mortgage meltdown after being encouraged to buy what they could not afford, takeover of US Auto companies, make work projects (shovel-ready projects in the Porkulus Bill), etc., etc.
Amy White, you seem to have misread the postings by “Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012″. He/she is doing an amateurish Stephen Colbert neocon rant. I believe he/she is debunking the right-wing fixation with Obama. Don’t waste your time being too serious with life. That’s the same advice i have for all those who have refused to deal with the fact that Barack Obama won a clear mandate from Americans to be their president. Losing an election should not be reason to wish death on the winner. Democracy is not limited to when we win. The woman who was whimpering on TV about the prospect of Obama speaking to her children is at the height of loathsome fear and hysteria. Only inexplicable hatred could have caused such a torment.
Swami Dave – You are a pinko commie. Obama was not even born here, he can’t prove it at all. Where is the placenta? Where is the stained sheet from his conception? There is no cervical or umbillical blood presented as evidence. These minor things are all we need to clear this up. Obama could end this immediately, instead he shames us.
Let the right continue with their ignorance, it will lead to their extinction. Then, real Republicans like myself will return the party to sanity and ideas.
I kinda LIKE the crazies in the republican party — just as much as I like the crazies in the democratic party. I’m hoping Americans will finally wake up and form a viable THIRD party — this madness has gone on long enough. Birthers, truthers, etc.; are all just a bunch of crazies who are on the fringe of their respective parties; the real power comes from the people in the middle.
We in the MIDDLE need to unite and form our OWN party; these other two have proven time and time again that they can’t be trusted with American values, money, expertise and management. Our past president lied, cheated, used cronyism and let loose a sadistic madman on the country; and our current one seems to think he has to pander to the crazies that just left! It’s time for a DIFFERENT party — one that really holds America’s PEOPLE’s interest; and NOT the corporations.
The fact that people do not want to hear Obama speaking to push students to be the best they can be shows how far down this country has gone. The media has turned a speech meant to inspire into something inane. Why is this even being discussed so heavily? I think we all know why. This country is being controlled by fear. The media tries to keep up fearful everyday. People are letting their fears control them into not thinking and being ignorant. Once you open your mind to realize this you can start seeing things in our country for what they are and are becoming.
From a Principal: …The message behind his speech is all- purpose for children, but it does focus a little more on kids that may not have it easy, kids that will have to push through a lot, to even attend school, let alone learn. The crazy people who are protesting, at least some of them, won’t like that the speech focuses on the underprivileged, lest they be too inspired, and become too “uppity’…I do believe racism is behind it all… I rarely feel things this way, but in my gut, I think the thoughts behind all of this controversy are really very primitive.
The Kenyan Pres speech to the kids turned out quite well. But, let’s get real. It got that way because of the objections raised by conservatives over the associated lesson plan which encouraged children to explore and develop ways to help the pres accomplish his objectives. Had it not been for the hue and cry over the lesson plan, I am convinced that this pres would have presented a vastly different and very parochial speech.
For those of you fortunate enough to learn, through hearing, the message is clear, put aside your ignorance and either educate or allow yourself to be educated.
Education is the basis upon which you will better yourself and brighten your future and the future of both this country and possibly this world.
Open the doors within your mind,
the more you learn, the more you will want to learn.
Your potential is unlimited, ignorance is self destructive, parents, encourage and stimulate their minds,the future needs and depends on this.
No need to approve of the messenger,
It’s the message that’s important.
I guess some of you have real problems with the WW2 vets speaking to “your children” on Veteran’s Day, or the local Baptist preacher speaking, or the police chief speaking on Career Day, right? Or is it only when Obama speaks?
Jeb Bush !! Did you say Jeb Bush ? It will be a cold day in GOP land before another Bush is elected anything. He has less of a chance than that retard Palin.
Although to most I may seem like just a tiny, insignificant citizen of this nation, lacking the esteemed political knowledge of most of you who are posting here, but it is very concerning to me as to why many are choosing to not to face such an obvious question we should all ask ourselves: Why is it that so many are living in fear of the direction our Pres is taking us? Again, I may be naiive, but I just can’t remember when there was a time that so many citizens were afraid for our future because of one man. Yes, there has always been Rep and Dem, with undoubted distaste for the victor of the presidency, in every election that I can recall. However, if our Pres invokes fear in so many citizens of this country, then maybe those of you supporting him should ask yourselves “WHY?” Where there’s smoke, there is almost always “FIRE!”
Davo September 8th, 2009 11:52 am
“Kyle please do us the favor of seperating the terms ‘republican’ and ‘conservative’ as they ceased to become synonomous since before Reagan.”
This is correct in my opinion. If you look at every Republican president since Eisenhower all you are see are liberals dressed in Republican clothes. This is why we have a liberal country. We have not had a Conservative president in 50 years.
I agree Kyle this was one very, very, dumb move on the part of any Republicans or Conservatives (non-republicans) who got involved in this foolish non-sense of trying to make an issue out of Obama speaking to school kids. It was an idiot’s battle just begging for a defeat.
Yeah, the GOP really put foot in mouth on this one. Kudos to your assessment…in general I’d addribute the origins of behviour like this to your buddy Newt and his application of “The Art of War” to American National politics. Nice book, if you’re actually fighting a war.
Basically what it says is that negotiating is for losers…if you want to win a war, there is no room for debate. For debating one’s opponent is tantamount to lending him credibility. What you really want to do is marginalize him, then destroy him, then destroy his family.
Unfortunately, our system of governance really needs debate. But the cat’s out of the bag. No looking back…there’s no reason to debate healthcare because death panels are just a non-starter in my book.
Funny how the same people protesting the President of the United States giving a speech telling kids to work hard in school, have no problem with a semi-literate professional athlete doing the same thing.
Black Like Me: I’d be more than willing to take my chances with O’Reily. *smile*
American Gal: I can only present the facts as they are; namely, -my- contention with PrezBO is his philosophy and policies which are (at foundation) wrong and (by historical measurement) an abject failure in every nation at every time that they have been tried. Personally, I care little about his race, but accept that reality that you may or may not choose to believe it.
In the end, I will save myself the time of attempting to make up race-based lists of candidates whom I might support as supposed evidence that I hold no racial bias. Realistically, you already hold a preconcieved notion and there is nothing that I can do to dissuade you of it. I’ll save you the insult and will not even try. You will just have to accept or reject it of your own accord.
I have to admit I was stupid enough to let my children who were 6 and 10 listen to Reagan even though we are Democrats, we even went to Bush’s inauguration in 2001. I am advising my children that they should never let my grandchildren listen to a Rep. After all they would probably be trying to brainwash them. I want to thank the Republicans for teaching me such a valuable lesson.
The far right extremists who have hijacked the once rational GOP needed NO help from President Obama or anyone else in making themselves look like total fools. Of course this was not the first time they did that, nor will it be the last. In fact, I look forward to a whole lot of stupid coming out of the Republican party. Which is sad. I used to vote Republican till the Christian Coalition took over.
It’s a sad day for this country when the President can’t speak to the children about studyung hard and staying in school. It seems like maybe some of the parents need to be the ones going back to school. If a 15-minute speech can corrupt your child’s mind, than you have failed your own child. You, my friend, need ti giti jail.
Kyle, I have to wonder just how many people were actually opposed. I remain highly suspicious of the media’s “slobbering love affair” with Obama.
With the homework assignment cast aside, I had no problem with Obama addressing schoolchildren. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…it’s Obama’s timing. The protest over the school video falls on the heals of all that you mentioned:
Now Obama is president, and pushing plenty of issues for conservatives to oppose legitimately, among them government-run health care, cap and trade, and a tax-and-spend government on a scale which we haven’t seen in decades.
Those, the most recent incident of his Green Czar, government owned banks and auto giants has a cumulative effect on the American psyche. It wasn’t JUST the student address.
Obama’s speech included a curriculum in which students were to answer the questions, “how will President Obama inspire me today”, and “how can I help President Obama”.
THAT is what conservatives resisted. The MSM portrayed this as a quick “message from the President” merely intended to inspire children to stay in school.
It was much more than that. It was indoctrination in the cult of personality of “our dear leader” Obama.
I’m disappointed that neither Boortz nor Wingfield are gutsy enough to acknowledge this.
Amy White thank you for your input, I see here we have a lot of closed minded people blogging. The subject of todays speech was to our children. Education is the key for our childrens future, but you have some who don’t have a brain between their ears. That was the most eloquent speech, I can’t remember not one president ever having to get permission to speak to our children and when they did it could not touch President O’bama’a speech. I find the remarks made concerning his speech were from followers who have to be guided if your were to ask some of these people who didn’t want their children to hear they can’t give you a legitmate reason why. No child left behind well guess what those who didn’t let their children hear the speech just got let behind.
I do not support much in the way of the Democrats or leftist politics. However, the idiocy of the Replicans is unfathomable. Tax cut for the weathly? Maybe back in 1960 when most of them were good Americans who would invest in America. Now they put in off shore account and foriegn investments.
As to the Obama speach, this must be a misprint. Kyle can’t possible be so stupid as to go along with Boortz’ nutty theory that his speech was an old switcharoo to further his “agenda” in the future”. Right now about the only sane voice in Conservative America is Joe Scarborough. We need more like him. (Although George Will has been coming to his senses as Thomas Sewell slips into full blown dimentia). Boortz, Limbaugh, Hannity, and Beck are leading the Right into the abyss of ignorance and stupidity. Now who will save us from Pelosi and Reid?
CrazyJoe: You are not alone. Every election I tell everyone I meet “Vote for the third party candidate of your choice.” Right now the total of Democrats and Republicans combined add up to less than half of the number of eligible voters in this nation. We need to turn most of the Republicrats out. Note in the health care debate, both parties are full of people more interested in “saving” the insurance companies. Now the Democrats want fine people who not purchase insurance! We will never get reform.
Swami Dave: Get a brain. Obama may be a liberal. He is a Democrat, but a socialist or communist? This guy who gave billions to banks and Wall Street with virtually no strings attached? To the guy doing everything he can to placate the insurance industry on health care?
Here is how you get get your brain wired properly. Instead of just making things up, or getting your cues from radio disk jockeys, find an actual Socialist and ask him what he thinks of Obama. You will find the Obama is batting a complete zero on the actual socialist agenda. Maybe if you found out what Socialist actually believe (or what the word means) you might be able to come off sounding intelligent. You can start here at a CONSERVATIVE website: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28645
Obama is going to make ANOTHER speech tomorrow to congress. Cynthia Tucker advises Obama to ignore the people and pass socialist health care. All while the AJC losses more readers and tanks. Nice.
Barack Obama will cement the new co-operative relationship between the US and the United Nations this month when he becomes the first American president to chair its 15-member Security Council.
The topic for the summit-level session of the council on September 24 is nuclear non-proliferation and nuclear disarmament – one of several global challenges that the US now wants to see addressed at a multinational level.
A year after financial crisis, the consumer economy is dead
WASHINGTON — One year after the near collapse of the global financial system, this much is clear: The financial world as we knew it is over, and something new is rising from its ashes.
Historians will look to September 2008 as a watershed for the U.S. economy.
On Sept. 7, the government seized mortgage titans Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Eight days later, investment bank Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy, sparking a global financial panic that threatened to topple blue-chip financial institutions around the world. In the several months that followed, governments from Washington to Beijing responded with unprecedented intervention into financial markets and across their economies, seeking to stop the wreckage and stem the damage.
Those of you who restrained your children from watching some cheezy ed speech by Obama are pathetic. Do you keep your kids from watching reality TV? Cable? Commercials? If you are such advocates for “conservative values,” you should be far more concerned about your kids watching prime time TV, even on your beloved FOX. It’s trash.
Fox is trash? As opposed to what, CNN, PMSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC and PBS? Yeah, those dinosaurs are all but extinct. I keep my kids away from trash like yourself.
“Here we go again. Average Americans practice their First Amendment free speech rights to protest another outrageous liberal proposal, and the media immediately go into full-on attack mode – against the American people for practicing their First Amendment free speech rights.
“Parents are placing themselves between their children and a chilling Obama Administration ‘lesson plan,’ and the media respond by calling them racists and insane psychopaths. The liberal media are more interested in assailing parents and continuing to cultivate Obama’s cult of personality than they are in reporting the truth.
“You would think that at some point the media would make the connection between their attacking their prospective viewers and their perpetually imploding ratings.”
“Just as with the tea party protesters, and the socialized health care town hall protesters, the media are again attacking the American people for having the temerity to speak up. How dare they.”
Welcome to reality, Kyle. It’s been this way for awhile on both sides, as you well note. It is why so many people have been put off by our two parties. I’m a former Republican who had my fill during the Bush years when the Congress I helped elect spent money like a chimp with a Visa card, including a huge new Medicare drug entitlement that went way too far and cost too much. The folks out there who say there is barely a scintilla of difference between the parites, that they all are beholden to their own interests and only care about buying votes, are growing in number by the day. We likely won’t ever have a third party option, but at least we can hope to take one of them back one day.
By the way, you write a real good column and I enjoy your perspective. I don’t think anyone would accuse you of being a GOP lapdog like the idiots we hear on the radio. Keep up the good work.
This all would be just the right fodder for 4-5 SNL skits, but unfortunately, it’s too sad. All you undereducated individuals (parents and “school leaders”) who are advocating getting rid of the federal and state government and castigating the President about talking to kids (yup – that’s right, better look up “castigating” in the dictionary, get a clue. Who do you think is protecting our safety around the world, in all those military outfits? Who do you think is patrolling the highways of the U.S. trying to keep some semblance of law and order? Who do you think is working in ERs, in classrooms, and in fire stations poised to help us at a minutes’ notice – that’s right – they’re federal, state, and local government workers! Are you all nuts? Did you not learn anything in school? Are you so intent in staying ignorant and perpetuating the ignorance in future generations that you can’t stand the prospect of the Pres. of the US speaking to school kids and urging them to study and get smart. Hopefully, your misguided “outrage” will not prevent them from using their own brains to figure out their ignorant, racially prejudiced, fear-mongering parents. Great job, conservatives – you’re lining up recruits by the millions!
I find it all so sad that I as an educator cannot determine what is educationally beneficial to students. Showing the speech where our President speaks to students about why it is important to step up and become a good student can only help students understand they are in charge of their own learning. I heard nothing about being a Democrat or a Republican. Apparently some parents live in fear of their own children being able to think for themselves.
As far as I’m concerned these badass kids need a pep-talk. I find it strangely ironic that white people are having a problem with Obama giving encouragement to all American children to stay in school but if he had only talked to the black kids he and the hispanics would be complaining about not being included and their kids are dropping out just like black kids. Why the hell are you upset at Obama when he’s the one who’s trying to fix everything if anything you should be pissed at Bush he’s the one who messed everything up. You’ll let your kids hear Bush speak but you don’t want Obama even shown to your kids, your racist S.O.Bs. Tea Party my ass, the name should be changed to Lynch Mob. Excuse my profanity but all of this unnecessary unfounded evil-hearted hypocracy disgusts me to the core.
Well Kyle, I must say that I agree with most of what you had to say in this piece. I hope that you will use this space more wisely that your predecessor. I will say that lumping Conservatives and Repugnicans into the same category is a bit misleading. It has been some time since the GOP has been conservative.
Not to give the bleating ninnies a pass on their overreaction to this, but the White House deserves blame for spinning it so badly to begin with. After a summer of anger and division, they should have been more in tune to how their “help the president” lesson might be viewed elsewhere. But alas, this White House, like the one before, only hears what its supporters tell them, which is why they remain in denial over how much support their agenda really has. Just dumb. When there’s already blood in the water, you shouldn’t go cut yourself and give the sharks something to kick off the frenzy. I recall Clinton hiring David Gergen and Dick Morris, both Republican operatives, to help him craft his message for someone other than his inner circle of aging hippies. Obama needs the same, a smart conservative — a George Will type — who can help him understand what half the country is thinking so they don’t continue to step on their toes. Either way, he needs to ream his communications staff for their dumb moves ‘cuz they suck right now. We have a smart president whose people are making him look dumb.
David Axelfraud September 8th, 2009 9:17 pm SAID: Cynthia Tucker is a communist pig.
CHRIS SAYS: Wow, such deep analysis. He must have looked in the mirror before chiming about Cynthia. She’s got more brains in her little pinky than you can “boast” from your entire ancestral lineage put together.
David Axelfraud September 8th, 2009 9:20 pm SAID: Obama is going to make ANOTHER speech tomorrow to congress. Cynthia Tucker advises Obama to ignore the people and pass socialist health care.
CHRIS SAYS: Actually, a very large majority of people want reform and a smaller majority of people want “socialist” health care. Heck, for idiots like you, even Germany and Switzerland have “socialist” systems (WRONG), but why argue the point with an idiot like yourself? Go back to whatever you’re snorting and continue living in your own blissful ignorance.
The latest Gallop Poll finds 39% of Americans saying they would direct their member of Congress to vote against a healthcare reform bill this fall while 37% want their member to vote in favor.
Actually Michael, the key quote from poll you mentioned was “The public is as divided over healthcare reform today as at the beginning of August (37% in favor and 39% opposed), with a large segment STILL UNDECIDED”. Also, its within the error margin +-4%
Bottom line is that the Democrats have the votes in Congress and the Senate, using the simple majority rule. Bush used the same simple majority to pass prescription care. Health care reform will pass. The only question is, will it pass with a Public Option or not, for those who are uninsured or under-insured.
Came across another poll from Gallup. This says that OECD countries give high marks to their Universal Health Care systems and most importantly, HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THEIR NATIONAL HEALTCARE OR MEDICAL SYSTEMS (the US got VERY low scores in that one).
Do you remember the events that took place after H.W. Bush gave a speech to school children, Kyle?
It will be interesting to see if the Washington Post excoriates Obama tomorrow. One thing for sure, there will not be a waste of taxpayer money on a Congressional investigate of Obama.
Kyle, you’re beginning to see the light! The Republican party has marginalized itself to the old Dixiecrats. Their leaders are hypocritical, mealy-mouth alarmists, and their supporters are greedy, empty-headed, racists trying to cling to an inglorious past rather than face a changing world.
The Democrats are only marginally better because their party is inclusive enough to attract a few intelligent and sincere politicians.
Why don’t you join the many Americans who are independent of both political parties, demanding of appropriate changes to keep up with the times, and intolerant of partisan silliness?
Turn the tables on the newspaper that hired you as their token “conservative”! Be all that you can be, not a Limbaugh/Palin parrot!
I caint wate ontil thers a nother repblikan presnident so I can keap mi six kids at home an than the’ll gruow up to bee a Prensident just lyke Georje Bush!
Kyle “Right” Wingfield wrote: “Opposing the Iraq war or the privatization of Social Security isn’t enough; you have to cast George Bush as the tee-totally evil second coming of Hitler, too.”
I think they cast Cheney as Hitler and Bush as Mussolini, the clownish dolt.
But, I think you make great points. My opinion is both parties have engaged in war since the Clinton presidency that has damaged the nation. The last time the parties behaved honorably was during the Reagan and part of the H.W. Bush administration.
wake up all you Christian right wings and read the ignorant
and dangerous crap you have spawned from this pitiful excuse
of a human being. Obama will show his birth certificate
if Palin shows her high school diploma, YOU BETCHA!!
Oh, I don’t know, the stuff leading up to the speech sort of served it’s purpose around my house. I had a opportunity to instruct my kids on what the president was probably gonna say, what he actually said and what he would have probably really liked to have said. Will be completely forgotten by the weekend (if not sooner) but I never like to miss a “teachable” moment.
I dont have a problem with the president or anyone telling kids to stay in school and to work hard. I am for affordable health care fpr all.
What I am opposed to is the color of the current “president”, I will not have one of them tell me anything
I would guarantee that if Obama gave the same speach to the rest of the world, excluding the US, there would be 2 million people waiting in anticipation of his message. It is hard for the people who hate the US and its President.
You know I would comments on all these blogs, but after thinking about it, I changed my mind. It’s unfortunate, that we possess so much PREJUDICE that we are closed mind to getting our children educated.
The parents squabble, based in Fox News hysteria over ignorance. Meanwhile, school peers facebook and twitter their multi-ethnic friends about how stupid the over 40 generation is for random suspicion over a speech about achieving your personal goals through education.
The message of the parents is tuned out as the new voters in 2012 judge based on shared intelligent, not television or AM radio ratings.
I would guarantee that if Obama gave the same speach to the rest of the world, excluding the US, there would be 2 million people waiting in anticipation of his message. It is hard for the people who hate the US and its President.
I dont hate the us or the president in general. I hate the race of this current president. He is trying to steal my birthright as a whiteman, by trying to make everyone else equal, and thats not the way america was intended to be….this is a WHITE CHRISTIAN MALE COUNTRY!!! If you do not like it leave
I was raised to love and respect all. God did make us all.
I was raised to respect authority.
I was raised to appreciate that we have freedoms in this country.
I applaud our President for who he is, where he is, and what is is trying to do.
I would not want his job. It is not like he walked into this job with a clean slate to work with.
Give him the chance to work with what he has been handed. Give him the respect that a president should have.
Be positive and peaceful……Love all.
You may not agree, but you need to have grace, mercy, understanding, patience, love……
My Great great grandaddy owned slaves that birthright was taken from the other men in my family by liberals. and now one is leading us.
I cannot beleive we are giving our country away to those who do not deserve it.
America is Imploding
“This guy who gave billions to banks and Wall Street with virtually no strings attached? To the guy doing everything he can to placate the insurance industry on health care?”
a) I opposed the Stima-Spendulous bill as well as the bail outs, but……
b) It is patently dishonest to make the assertion that the money was given “without strings attached” when we now have “Executive Pay” czars (who have never been exectutives and know nothing about how to be one) or “Auto Industry” czars (who have neither experience in the auto industry nor any experience that would qualify them as a decision-maker in any private enterprise) and other constraints on the businesses who accepted the bailouts, but…..
c) Government interventionism is a usual outcome when an individual or organization becomes dependent upon bureaucrats and politicians which is the key reason that America needs more freedom, opportunity, and achievement as the basis of our country; not the insidious spread of dependency and redistribution.
As for my understanding of socialism, communism, liberalism, and any of the other philosophies of economic control that are -ALL- outcroppings from their common ancestor, collectivism, understanding and knowledge are not a problem. I know what you are – a supporter of a political theology that attempts to do with legislation what more common thieves do with guns. That would be steal that which was earned or owned by others for your own ends (namely: acquire political power by buying votes using confiscated money).
“government-run health care” should be health care system reform with an insurance option. Government employees won’t actually administer care.
Were leading Republicans feeding into this? I always assumed it was the radio and TV talking heads trying to grab ratings, but I refrain from watching or listening to political media so I don’t know.
Either way, you’re right on this one. It never should’ve been an issue, and it really turns off moderates.
Chris Salzmann suffers from the short bus syndrome. Chris Salzmann is a high school drop out and is unable to comprehend competent everyday sentences. Chris Salzmann is in serious need of medical attention.
Bottom line: Chris Salzmann needs to move out of her moms trailer park and get a real job and a real life.
wake up all you Christian right wings and read the ignorant
and dangerous crap you have spawned from this pitiful excuse
of a human being. Obama will show his birth certificate
if Palin shows her high school diploma, YOU BETCHA!!
That didn’t make any sense dumb a$$. Did you finish middle school?
Chris Salzmann can’t answer a simple question. Instead, Chris Salzmann demonizes other people due to her lack of a pen&^. Chris Salzmann is a sad 300 lb whale. So sad……..
If Americans want government health care then why won’t the democrats pass it?
The democrats are in charge and they can’t agree on their own so-called policies.
White folks showed their color on this one, didn’t they? They got snookered into making an azz out of themselves by the likes of Hannity. How can any sane person not realize that other presidents spoke to kids? What’s the difference in other Presidents and this one besides his color? Therein lies the problem.
Class of ‘98: I mentioned the part about the lesson plan, which I also found objectionable. As for the “cult of personality”…if a speech to schoolchildren were unprecedented, maybe. But I just don’t think this rises to that level.
Michael Honohan: I didn’t read the Boortz column to mean that this was a planned “switcheroo” all along. What I thought he said, and what I agree with, is that Obama’s critics gave him an opportunity to make them look stupid when they complained about a speech before it had been delivered. It makes them look like they oppose Obama personally rather than his policies, which is not a very smart thing to do given that Obama remains personally popular (in spite of his policies, imo). Eventually, that will take away credibility that Republicans and conservatives have fought hard to regain over the past months — and I do lump conservatives and the GOP together in this case, since some (not all) people from both groups were voicing the criticism.
And everyone, thanks for just ignoring Bob from Dahlonega…
Btw, I would argue that those people who simplistically chalk up this story, or any loud opposition to Obama or his policies, to race are making the same mistake that the speech protesters did — namely, turning off more people than they attract.
David Axelfraud – You will be first in line for Kenyan President Hussien’s death panels. This is the first step in Al Queda’s plan to dismember us from within. We have foolishly elected a muslim communist born in africa. He can’t even show us his placenta or cord blood. What a fraud. Jeb Bush will restore honor to America. Jeb is even smarter than George, come on Republicans, now it’s Jeb’s time. Lez Cheney and Sarah Palin will work closely together. Thats hot!
Keep racists like you away from government.
Bring back integration in schools.
Make objectivity compulsory.
Teach critical thinking.
Your alternate-reality nation is pathetic.
kwingfield, playing the race card is all the liberals have left. They are losing on every issue and have resorted to calling white people racist. Morons.
Agreed up to a point, Mr. Wingfield. This is what I noticed in Boortz’s piece –
*So Obama’s speechwriters took their cue from the right and made the speech essentially bulletproof from the get-go.*
Conservatives should have sat back and let Obama be Obama — had we done that he would have shot himself in the foot. He saw us coming and outflanked us. Until we can see the whites of their eyes, we conservatives should keep our powder dry.
What is the right afraid of? Do they fore see a drastic lowering of the voting age to middle school students to rush them to the polls in 2012 to vote for Obama? Older students have probably already been oriented to one of the political parties due to their parents’ philosiphies.
Linda T. – Glenn Beck is demanding the original transcript of the speech. Apparently it is written in Hussien’s mother toungue, Swahili, and denounces all true americans as racists and crazy. Glenn also said that it proves that crazy obama wants to steal money from the wealthy (taxes)and give it to stupid, lazy, poor prople (health care). Sean Hannity will be on the broadcast tonight to discuss why we need more tax cuts for the wealthy! Finally someone can show that every penny given to these stupid lazy union workers at GM or Chrysler is one less perrny for our courageous hard working Wall Street executives. Everyone knows they only build a half way decent car when lead by their German or Japanese masters.
The kenyan could care less about citizens in this country without insurance. The fed has taken over Wall Street. The fed has taken over banking. The fed has taken over the auto industry. The fed naturally controls the huge government bureaucracy. What is left? What is the only major industry left? Health care and pharma is all that is left in this country. When the kenyan gets that, we will be a completely socialist country. It’s not about the people without insurance, it is about the fed having complete control of all citizens lives. And most people in this country have figured that out. It is all down hill for this administration from here.
My reading is that he will say the public option is the most efficient means of getting premium cost down but that he is not married to it.
Anything that works, “works” being defined as getting by both houses.
My problem with any bill is that the bill that passes will not be the end of the matter. Medicare was passed in 1965 & for the next 40 years
congress & all presidents kept expanding the service. Expanded the service but did nothing on expanding the funding. The result is Medicare going busted in 2019.
I think he’ll do the latter as well, framed in a ’stand by your principles’ moment for the DNC. To do otherwise would be an admission to ‘the mob’ that they might actually have a point in their aversion to more govt control over our lives. That would be bad for the DNC and Obama’s agenda. I’m guessing that if they lose this fight then all blame will be placed at the feet of ‘conservatives’ (blue-dogs not included, of course) and this will serve as the 2010 rallying cry around the democrats; not all will be lost politically. Live to fight freedom another day.
I just don’t get why the DNC is so set on public health care. Even the Canadian Health minister said their system is imploding. How can we cut so much out of medicare and continue to give service to the elderly? Chian is beginning to ask questions about our debt. When is this going to stop??!!
Did legislators read the entire bill for the 2001 Bush tax cuts? Which were passed via reconciliation by the way.
Where is all the job creation from that Wingfield? Had tax cuts in 2001 and again in 2003 and by 2007 we were in a recession. How can one say that cutting taxes creates jobs after we’ve seen firsthand that it doesn’t? Please expound.
Saxby & Johnny did not read the TARP bill before they voted for it. His mail was 1,000 to 1 against it but Saxby went with the Lobbyist not the taxpayers.
With the Western Democracies teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, starvation and collapse, all due to their wildly unpopular, government-run, universal health-care bureaucracies, why would the President wish to doom our nation to failure by going down the same path?
Obama will continue to be civil to Republicans and will get the usual in return, i,e., ‘he’s a terrorist, muslim, nazi, socialist, communist who was not born in the United States and is not really President and wants a death panel to kill grandma.’
Any health-care reform he proposes, even if it does not include a public option, will be pounced on by Republicans as socialist, communist, etc., and the hopeless dems will stare into the headlights and not get anything done.
Medical insurers can then return to big profits by rationing health care and the GOP can pat itself on the back for maintaining the status quo in favor of insurers over everybody else.
And the GOP can go back to branding Obama a ‘muslim terrorist, socialist, communist, etc., who was not born in the United States and is therefore illegitimate, etc.,…
What the Democrats need to realize is that they are in a lose-lose situation now unless they pass a universal healthcare package that works. The only way it will work is if there is a public option or a threat of a public option if insurance companies will not cover everyone, including preexisting conditions. Otherwise, the voters will see them as wimps without backbones.
If the Democrats fail to pass anything substantial, all Democrats will lose. The irony is that the most paranoid Democrats, the Blue Dogs, are in the worst predicament. If they pass a lame bill, they will lose their liberal supporters. If they pass a “public option” bill, they will lose their more conservative supporters. Solution: vote your conscience and pray that it works. The only way to prevent healthcare reform from crippling the upcoming elections is to follow through with your original plan and show that it works. Delay and lack of commitment will reveal weakness and new or ‘blue dog’ seats will disappear.
Cutty: First, no one government policy dictates job growth, or lack thereof. But from the jobs trough in July 2003 (i.e. less than two months after Bush signed the second tax cut into law) to the peak in December 2007, the private sector added 7.6 million jobs. My source is the Bureau of Labor Statistics. What’s yours?
Well from MY Bureau of Labor Stats, unemployment increased from 4.2% in January 2001 to 7.2% in December 2008. Considering population growth, that still represents a 4.6% decrease in employment during the Bush years. The number of unemployed was nearly 6.0 million in January 2001 and 6.9 million in September 2006. The unemployment rate was 4.2% in January 2001, 4.6% in September 2006, and 7.2% in December 2008.
More fuzzy math from Republicans in my opinion. I would find some common ground in your comments if Republicans hadn’t ran away with the tax cuts= job creation mantra. That was their alternative to the ARRA correct?
You have a lot of opinion for someone who can’t spell “Hussein”
and listens to Glenn Beck. You and Axelfraulein deserve each other.
The wingnuts on these forums do more damage to American
prosperity, productivity, and education than ten “Housewives of Atlanta
(Duluth)” reality shows put together.
Your endpoints are what I’d call fuzzy, starting before the 2001 recession began, dropping randomly in the middle of the expansion, and then ending a year after the current recession was under way.
And I doubt that any economist would argue that *any* tax policy — lowering rates, raising them or holding them steady — could have prevented a recession fueled by the housing market collapse and the resulting financial mess.
Again, there are lots of factors in any job-market growth or loss. But I’ll take my chances with incentives for companies to invest over transfer payments and pork-barrel spending, which made up almost two-thirds of the ARRA (a.k.a. the stimulus): http://seekingalpha.com/article/159355-the-non-stimulating-stimulus-bill
dewstarpath, your point? I didn’t know that beached whales, like yourself, had a point. The only “damage” I’ve done is to adding insult to your 300 lb a$$.
John Oxendine and other Republicans need to wake up. More roads (or transit) don’t come without more taxes – federal, state and local. Wake up. We are broke. Where do you think most of the dollars for all our existing roads came from? It was the federal government. The federal debt is over $10 trillion and will be 80% of national GDP in 10 years. Will you raise the national gas tax? Georgia gas tax? A new statewide sales tax? Where does it end? We have other needs for tax dollars too. You are completely clueless. You cannot ask China for any more $. There is no money left to promise for anything. Forget military spending, social security and medicare, we need to raise taxes for roads. That sound bite sounds real fine.
oldtimer September 9th, 2009 1:35 pm SAID: I just don’t get why the DNC is so set on public health care. Even the Canadian Health minister said their system is imploding. How can we cut so much out of medicare and continue to give service to the elderly? Chian is beginning to ask questions about our debt. When is this going to stop??!!
CHRIS SAYS: And we aren’t getting a Canadian system. That’s one of the stupidest things I’ve heard here. The private health care industry will be around for a long time. BTW, countries like Switzerland, the Netherlands, Germany, etc all have universal health care and majority of coverage in all these countries is carried by private insurance companies.
The truth is that “conservatives” (and I use that word lightly) in the South don’t like or want mass transit because they associate it with poor people, and those they consider to be lower class. Perhaps they should visit a place like Greenwich CT one weekday morning or evening and see the amount of multi millionaires getting on and off of Metro North. Yeah, it really suck being able to take a train and work on your laptop, read, etc. Atlanta will never be a truly world class city until it takes mass transit seriously. It’s not just for poor people. It’s for those that would rather use their time in a more relaxing and useful way as opposed to sitting stuck in traffic while polluting the planet (another issue republicans could care less about…guess it has something to do with their belief in the “rapture” coming at some point, yeah…keep waiting for that)…
BTW…the only reason why our airport here is the busiest…. it’s because people change flights here on their way someplace else. The majority never even stay. Go figure… so just keep wanting to build roads as the solution. Must have something to do with having being the the worst of the worst when it comes to education. Those running the show in GA obviously attended it’s schools. (pssssst… it shows).
Chris Salzmann the buffoon writes: BTW, countries like Switzerland, the Netherlands, Germany, etc all have universal health care and majority of coverage in all these countries is carried by private insurance companies.
David Axelfraud says: GERMANY, THE NETHERLANDS AND SWITZERLAND DON’T HAVE THE AMOUNT OF DEBT AND PEOPLE THE UNITED STATES DOES.
saul — if the transit in CT is so great, why don’t you move back? In our great city (and yes, I am a native) the areas of business are spread out from Downtown to Midtown to Perimeter to Northlake to Cobb, etc. We don’t have a population headed to one central location — as is the case with workers in CT going to NYC. Add to that the number of people with service-related jobs that go to multiple locations in one day and you are now comparing apples to oranges. While mass transit works in many scenarios, the general transportation needs of Metropolitan Atlanta do not support this solution. And to respond to your second post, get yourself on one of those planes going somewhere else — we really don’t need your negativity!
Elephant Whip, you’re the first rational democrat voter that has painted a correct scenario of the current debacle that is the democrat party. Kudos to you.
K Wingfield, maybe you should be concerned about your comrade Cynthia Tucker. She just came out of the communist closet and has now sided with Communist China.
Bottom line: The AJC employs to commies, Cynthia Tucker and Jay Bookwoman.
I’d be pretty upset about Oxendine’s proposals to run a freeway through my house, except there’s no money to fund them, anyway. Barnes wants to run light rail on top of 75/85, which may be cheaper than the other proposals involving new land acquisitions. Of course, no funding for that, either.
Until they get down to dollars and cents, they’re all just blowing smoke.
Dawgmom, you’re only part right – a large population heads to a centralized location – downtown – every day. Hence the ever-expanding downtown connector.
Elephant Whip, my mistake, but still, you lean democrat so I was not off by much. Your assessment was spot on with the current debacle for the democrats. I don’t think the blue dogs are in any more of a mess than the other dems. They are ALL in big trouble and people like Harry Reid, Chris Dodd and many more big time libs will probably end up losing their seats next November. I was watching Keith Olbermann rip on the Doctor who gave the GOP address after the speech. Olbermann, instead of debating what the guy said, went and demonized the guy by saying he had been sued in malpractice suits multiple times. I don’t know ONE doctor who has gone through his/her entire career without being sued. Doctors get and insurance companies get sued all the time. It;s THE biggest problem with high health care cost and doctors fleeing the field.
We are broke. All levels of government are leveraged. We have no more money for roads or transit. The economy will continue to slide for another two years. So you can be a dawgmom or techmom and you still are going to sit in your darn car in traffic for the rest of your life. Republicans and Democrats will have to raise taxes to do anything and it still will make little difference in the traffic. We have borrowed $10 trillion from China and others for years that dawgkids will not be able to pay back. Forget CT. They are more solvent than the vast majority of Georgians who did not attend college and dont have any more money for taxes or roads. I am a native too and pay taxes to the same governments that are broke and over committed. If everyone from another state moved back we would only be more broke.
I am a conservative, and even I know that there is a dire need for commuter and passenger rail. We can’t just keep building roads; paving over and building on every square inch of vacant land will cause a host of problems, not to mention more pollution and runoff problems. Bus rapid transit sounds good, to be sure, but long term costs outweigh the short term benefits. Trains don’t get flat tires, leave their transmissions in the middle of the road, and they don’t get stuck in traffic. People will ride passenger and commuter rail; the express buses are already full, and Amtrak operates with full trains. We stand to lose more by keeping our heads in the sand concerning transit and continuing to rely on roads. These anti-rail people will be the first ones screaming bloody murder when it takes them three hours to get from marietta to Atlanta on their 25-lane I-75.
Tunnels through granite east of Atlanta, northern arcs?? Oxendine either has no clue what these things cost the traveling public and tax payer or is ignoring them. The highways we have were built under a federal funding model with comparitively lax environmental laws.
Time to step aside and let adults run things in Georgia.
I would guarantee that if Obama gave the same speach to the rest of the world, excluding the US, there would be 2 million people waiting in anticipation of his message. It is hard for the people who hate the US and its President.
A long time ago, in a universe far, far away, conservatives aspired to intellectualism. They were often wrong, mind you. But at least, they took time to educate themselves about the issues. No more.
Mr. Wingfield and Mr. Oxedine, who are merely playing at being conservative, have exposed their keening ignorance about transportation. To incorrectly and repeatedly claim that “conservatives” oppose mass transit — especially for the reasons they cite — demonstrate their intellectual vacuity and moral bankruptcy.
For the dying breed of thinking conservatives who are sincere in their conviction to improve transportation in the region and in the state, I encourage them to read the book “Moving Minds” by William S. Lind and the late Paul Weyrich. Both men, whose conservative credentials are legendary and unassailable, offer abundant empirical case for mass transit. (If you’re too busy to read the book, just Google their names. They’ve written plenty on the subject and represent the cutting edge of conservative thought.)
If Oxendine insists on pretending to be a “conservative” candidate for governor and Wingfield intends to keep posing as a “conservative” voice at the AJC, is it asking too much of them to base their misguided public mutterings on FACTS?
Probably.
Actually, Kyle most of the state does NOT put tranportation at the top of the list. I understand that metro Atlantans do (for good reason) but the majority of Georgians do NOT live in metro Atlanta!
I actually kinda like Oxendine’s strategy in getting people on the, especially on the right, to talk about the transportation issue by proposing something as seemingly far-fetched to moderates and liberals as bulldozing or tunneling under Intown Atlanta neighborhoods. Remember, Oxendine has to run hard to the right in the Republican Primary to distance himself from Perdue’s hand-picked successor, Karen Handel, and Nathan Deal, who has heavy support in Northeast Georgia, the area he serves in Congress. Because of economic disparity, there is a lot of anti-Atlanta bias in most of the rest of the state outside the metro area and proposing to bulldoze some of Atlanta’s most notorious hotbeds for leftist-liberalism and in the eyes of many outside I-285, elitist socialism, plays really, really well to a very conservative rural populace that struggles with high rates of poverty, under-education and unemployment even in a good overall economy.
After blowing away Handel and Deal in a gubernatorial Republican Primary in the “Reddest of Red States”, I expect Ox to move to somewhat more moderate political positions, especially on transportation. Though because Georgia is a solidly conservative state outside Metro Atlanta, Ox won’t really have to move that far left towards center so expect some degree of proposed statewide road building to be apart of any future transportation plans, especially in other parts of the state outside Atlanta’s metro core.
To avoid tax-increases and to minimize the cost to the tax-paying public, I would hope that Oxendine would pursue a policy utilizing user fees through bonds paid back through tolls and realistically-priced fares to finance any future large-scale transportation initatives. Existing transportation funding is at a premium and user fees in the way of tolls and fares could help to get a new road or transit built that wouldn’t get built through conventional or tradition means of funding through taxes. User fees could also help to operate and maintain those modes of transportation after they’re built.
Though some don’t like Oxendine’s plans for road-building, I don’t think that his road-building plans go far enough. While I’m not a big fan of a “parallel downtown connector” through or under East Atlanta neighborhoods, I do like the proposal for a West Georgia bypass of Metro Atlanta from south of Chattanooga to roughly north of Macon. I also like the proposal for a “Fall-Line Freeway” running from Columbus to Augusta by way of Macon, which I think is long overdue.
While I do think a “Northern Arc/Bypass” is a practical proposal, I don’t know if it would be politically viable in the end because of the somewhat pristine and highly-desirable real estate in the foothills and mountains of the Southern Appalachians that the proposed route would go thru. I suspect that the people up that way would fight like hell to the death against any renewed proposal for a northern bypass that would run even farther north from Atlanta.
While such roads are common in Texas where numerous TOLLED bypasses have been built outside of cities like Dallas and Houston in recent years and Florida where a heavy crush of tourists make toll roads very much viable, highly profitable and necessary, such roads have proven to be highly unpopular in the D.C. Suburbs of Northern Virginia and in North Georgia. A proposed “Outer Beltway” with bridges over the Potomac was pared down to a local parkway-type road with at-grade intersections thru the Western D.C. Suburbs of Northern Virginia. Who in Georgia could forget how the “Outer Perimeter” proposal was pared down to the “Northern Arc” before being axed altogether because of the high-value and the proximity of the residential real estate it was proposed to run through?
While I like most of Oxendine’s statewide road-building proposals other than the “Parallel Downtown Connector” and also like Barnes’ propensity to support mass transit, I think that a multimodal statewide plan that includes both roads and mass transit is the solution to Georgia’s transportation woes. I would most like to see a statewide system of toll roads and commuter rail to relieve congestion and spur additional international investment.
I wouldn’t mind copying what Virginia is doing to the Capital Beltway outside of D.C. by adding two H.O.T. (High Occupancy Toll) lanes to some portions or the entire median of each direction of the I-285 Perimeter to bring its width to at least twelve lanes (six in each direction). I also would like to see a system of commuter rail passenger trails on existing rail beds that parallel heavily-traveled interstates. I would like to see a commuter rail system that not only connects Downtown and Intown Atlanta to its suburbs and exurbs but also to various cities in Georgia and this part of the Southeast.
Let’s say the system included such routes as an Atlanta to Spartanburg, SC-line via Clemson, SC (Clemson Univ) or an Atlanta to Auburn/Opelika, AL (Auburn Univ)-line or an Atlanta to Valdosta-line via Macon, Warner Robins, Cordele and Tifton or an Atlanta to Chattanooga commuter rail-line via Marietta, Cartersville and Dalton along with a Brain-Train line to at-least Athens (UGA). I would also change the name of MARTA to something like METRO and make the existing and new heavy-rail lines along with light-rail, express and local bus of a central metro-area system the core backbone of a much larger statewide system of commuter rail, express bus, freeways with toll lanes and toll roads. With the absence of an existing railbed in the Georgia 400 Corridor, I would run express buses out of the existing North Springs MARTA Station up to Dahlonega with a frequent local bus line or a light-rail line up Georgia 9 to Alpharetta.
While I’m not crazy about tolls, I recognize that user-fees in the way of tolls and premium fares are probably the only way that additional infrastructure is going to be built and operated beyond this point. $2.00 fares and unpopular tax-increases proposals just ain’t gonna cut it when talking about trying to build a world-class transportation system. Adding transportation infrastructure shouldn’t just be seen as a necessary way to relieve congestion. Adding transportation infrastructure in the form of toll roads and rapid transit should also be seen for what it is: A VERY necessary investment in our quality-of-life and our economic future. If Atlanta and, most importantly, GEORGIA, is to compete not only with Nashville, Dallas and Charlotte, but also New York, Paris, Tokyo, Shanghai and Beijing, realistic investments in infrastructure are an ABSOLUTE MUST!
The Georgia GOP just doesn’t get it. Infrastructure costs money. That means either taxes or tolls. GDOT is clearly capable of building roads, it just cannot manage its money. GRTA is a joke and it bus system will fold when the feds pull the plug. MARTA is the only viable transit operator and to those GOPers that whine that it doesn’t go where they live — that’s because you voted it down in Cobb and Gwinnett you numbskulls.
Oxendine is driving the transit debate? What a foolish thing to say. There is no transit debate. This a Red State and Red States don’t do transit. What we have is all we will ever have. Atlanta may build the beltline — but surbubanites will continue to sit in traffic because the GOP cannot bring itself to actually pay for infrastructure.
As for paving over East Atlanta, don’t worry about that. Although that would sure make Kyle Wingnut and the rest of the right-wingers happy, it ain’t gonna happen. Y’all already siphon of Atlanta taxes for 4 lane rural roads to nowhere — be happy for that. Until GDOT loses that money too.
On his website, Oxendine argues for the extension of 400 through east Atlanta (defeated decades ago), because he says people in the northen suburbs needed a quick and easy way to get to the airport. They already have one: drive to the nearest MARTA station and take the train.
Regarding the comment that Atlanta is disperse, and there is no central destination, a look at traffic in the morning and evening would say otherwise. I live in the city, and have no trouble driving out in the morning or back in the evening, while traffic is stop and go the other way. Also, the patterns mentioned are influenced by transportation systems. A highway system like we have leads to more sprawl. More highways will simply mean more sprawl, more cars and worse air. In cities with a good mass transit system, living and working near a station is desirable.
When my family moved to Atlanta five years ago we had three major requirements. We wanted good schools, a nearby MARTA station, and a walkable neighborhood. We found all three (yes, even good schools). The sidewalks could use a lot of improvement though.
I don’t mind small tax increases to fund transportation initatives, but I am loathe to fully endorse them because tax increases are not always politically viable, especially during a very bad economy. Neither are tax increases always a creative or self-sustaining way to fund projects.
User fees make more sense politically because the perception is that the taxpayers aren’t on the hook for something that the entire motoring public may not use. With user fees you can say that those who use that infrastructure will be the ones to pay for it.
Toll roads and fare increases are both red herrings. If each individual had to pay the true cost of riding the train, it would be prohibitive for many people. However, if each individual had to pay the true cost of using the highways (which are subsidized much more heavily than trains) that wouild be prohibitive as well.
The best way to improve and finance our transit system is through higher gas taxes. Tax gas at a rate that will keep the price around $4 a gallon at the pump (adjusted for inflation). Still much cheaper than anywhere in the world. Use the money to build more public transportation.
Our gas consumption will go down. Train ridership will go up. Air will be cleaner. And, oh yeah, it is better for national security.
I remember we fired Roy Barns and the OX’s plan is basically the same as Roy Barnes big spending plan. If we wanted Roy’s road program we should just rehire Roy. If you want a real Conservative your vote goes to Handel or Chapman. Mr Wingate if you want us to think you are a conservative write about Conservatives not big spenders.
You can’t expect Oxendine to go into a Republican Primary in Georgia advocating for mass transit and commuter rail. If he runs that kind of platform in rural Georgia he might as well just close up shop and tell his supporters to vote for a Handel-Deal ticket in the General Election. If Ox is to win the GOP primary, preferably going away, he has absolutely got to run a campaign from the hard right. I know that Intown Atlantan liberals can’t relate to the politics of a Republican Primary, but if Ox is seen as soft or sympathetic to intown liberals in any way, shape or form outside of I-285 he will get his head handed to him on a silver platter. Nathan Deal poses a real on-going challenge to Ox because he’s got the support of many mountain voters who were going to go for Casey Cagle.
You Intowners may not like being the target of political bulldozers, either literally or figurately, but most of the prospective and likely voters in a Georgia GOP Primary don’t like you and those are the voters that Ox needs to win. Voters that, honestly, would like nothing more than to see you ITP intowners wiped off of the face of the earth.
In the 20 years I have lived here, the quality of life in the Atlanta area has gone down. It has gone down primarily because of oppressive traffic. And it will continue to go down as long as the population increases without an increase in freeways. The East-West corridor should have been built years ago, but there are just too many head-in-the-sand NIMBYs around. With the demise of the AJC and the other leftist organizations who think light rail is the holy grail, maybe something will finally get done. And it is nice to see someone like Oxendine finally show some leadership on this issue. Yes, there will be some NIMBY organizations given great publicity by the AJC. But I am convinced, and so apparently is Oxendine, that sanity will finally prevail.
Do some research. The population of Georgia is approximately 9.7 million, while the population of the Atlanta Metropolitan Statistical Area is approximately 5.4 million. So, the majority of Georgians DO live in Atlanta. Like it or not, the Atlanta MSA drives what happens in this state, and believe it or not, the rest of the state benefits from what happens in Atlanta.
Bill:
No politician in his or her right mind (or that wants to be elected, anyway) is going to propose to raise gas taxes or push them to a level that keeps the price of gas at $4.00-a-gallon, especially in red-state Georgia where socially-conservative voters want to hear a message of small government, low taxes and tax cuts. On top of that commuters aren’t the only drivers affected by higher gas prices. Raise gas taxes on commuters and you also raise gas taxes (and prices) on truckers who transport almost all of the goods and products we depend on and must buy or consume to live. Artifically raise the price of gas and you also end up raising the price of food and unless gas is pumped right out of refinery across street to a gas station, it goes up even more than you intended.
While your intentions to pay for mass transit persuade commuters to ride it through higher gas taxes may be noble and well-intentioned, higher gas taxes, and sometimes higher taxes in general, but ESPECIALLY higher gas taxes, can and will crimp economic activity and drive up the price of goods thru heavy inflation. Remember last year when gas almost hit $5.00-a-gallon? Remember when food and grocery prices started going thru the roof while incomes plunged because the price to transport them went sky-high? Remember how many truckers went belly-up because the cost of fuel was more than they were being paid to transport shipments of goods?
My point is obvious, made evident by your idiot postings.
I’m glad to see that I’m losing weight, going from 400 to 300
pounds in a day. Instant weight loss! Your observations about
my appearance are probably as accurate as your views on
life in general. Maybe one day you will have a triple-digit I.Q.
like the rest of society, but for now I have to treat your rantings
as comedy routines. Try to stay in school.
Looks like we have proof that democrats cheat during elections.
11 accused of faking voter registration cards in Miami-Dade
Eleven people hired to register potential voters in Miami-Dade County before last year’s presidential election were being sought Wednesday for falsifying hundreds of voter registration cards.
The Miami-Dade State Attorney’s Office issued arrest warrants for each of the 11 suspects, all of whom worked for the local chapter of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, (ACORN).
REALLY?: I’ll be sharing my own thoughts on mass transit in due time (hint: I took it nearly every day of the 4.5 years I lived in Belgium, so I’m not reflexively opposed to it…nor, saul good, do I think it’s just for “poor people”). But I would be willing to bet that mass transit is not a winner among most conservative voters in Georgia.
Lucas, dawgmom and others: The trend for work commutes in metro Atlanta is fewer commutes to or within downtown, and more suburb-to-suburb commutes (see Reason Foundation’s 2006 report, the full text of which is downloadable here: http://reason.org/news/show/reducing-congestion-in-atlanta). I haven’t seen good numbers on how much traffic on the connector is through-traffic (e.g., people going to Florida or truck transportation headed to other places) but the idea behind the western bypass is to divert that traffic around Atlanta completely.
Regarding the parallel connector (i.e. the one that would go under east Atlanta): Note the use of the word “under”…no one these days is proposing an above-ground road through Va-Hi, Inman Park and those other neighborhoods. It would be completely tunneled. Understand, I’m not *advocating* this idea, just explaining it.
Churchill’s MOM and others: Yes, this will take money. But most of these new roads would either be toll roads — in which case users would decide to pay for using them. There is also talk (not sure if Oxendine supports this) about paying for some new roads by turning some lanes on existing interstates into the kind of H.O.T. lanes that TarHeedBred mentioned, and using the revenue to fund new roads.
No solution to the problem — and transportation, particularly in metro Atlanta, is a problem — will be cheap. That’s one reason why I think it’s interesting that Oxendine, as a front-runner, would take the risk of starting this debate among Republicans.
Do you think Nathan Deal’s no-bid business arrangement with the state will hurt him? Or will it roll off his back like Puredoo’s just-for-me tax break?
So once we pave over all those ITP’ers; where will the tax income go for the rest of Georgia?
Whine all you want about the ‘liberals’ intown, just realize that they contribute to the lions share of this states revenues. This is the political reality as it always has been.
Bus Rapid Transit cost 10 cents on the dollar to rail, has the benefit of being somewhat flexible, and while not able to carry as many people, can certainly support loads much greater that regular buses or cars.
Communities around the country and the world are using BRT systems as both a precursor to rail or a replacement for rail. If we choose to, we can start solving the congestion problems quickly or we can plan future rail lines only and continue to complain for the next two decades.
I picture this meeting you had with Steele much like a tv crime drama would show a parole hearing; the guy will say anything to get out of his current circumstances…but can you really trust him?
I don’t…no commuted sentence from this conservative voter.
I am a conservative and I firmly believe that investing in transit is the MOST conservative way to invest in transportation. Roads also need constant public investment and, unlike with transit, there is NO revenue from most roads. If you are going to call yourself a conservative please be honest or do your basic homework. Typing up the talking points for your readers just makes you look like every other backwards stale so called Georgia “conservative”. A better word for you is Populist.
Heck, we can’t even afford to cut the grass and brush along state highways. And here are all these folks blathering away about paving every square inch of GA, like it was 1958. China and the Arabs own us because we sent them all our money. Oxendine and his charts of proposed pavement projects are laughable, moronic.
With the Western Democracies teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, starvation and collapse, all due to their wildly unpopular, government-run, universal health-care bureaucracies, why would the President wish to doom our nation to failure by going down the same path?
Um, if the GOP would return to conservatism they would win. Notice how Obama talked about individualism, competition and so forth. Those are conservative issues. He’s against those things because he’s a socialist. If Michael Steele wants to sweep next November, which right now they stand a big chance of winning due to the idiocy of the democrat party, he should recruit conservatives and conservative stances. Newt did it in 1994 and they swept the democrats from office.
Kyle, are you not keeping up with Northeastern politics? New Jersey is about to put a Republican in the governors mansion. After years and years of democrat corruption and high unemployment, the GOP is taking the state.
David Axelfraud: The NJ race is definitely an important one, maybe a bellwether. The GOP also has openings in Connecticut next year with Chris Dodd’s seat and in Pennsylvania (don’t know if that really counts as “Northeast,” but oh well) with Arlen Specter’s seat. Ditto the NY gubernatorial race.
Davo: I would imagine a lot of conservative voters feel the same way. How long would you (and other commenters) make the “sentence”?
Given that treason is a capitol offense worthy of the death penalty…
But, I digress. After this next election cycle we shall see how the public leans. I’m hoping the independents will finally make a stand. Only a few would upset the contrivied balance that we now have in Congress…that would be good for all of us.
The ONLY way that a public transit system would work is if General Sherman came back from the grave, burned the A-T-L to the ground, and a group of common sense engineers designed a city on a grid system like NYC and Chicago. It won’t work ANY other way.
Becky, the rest of the state doesn’t care about Atlanta and its transit problems. If the city can’t devise a competent plan then SCREW the A-T-L! YO YO YO
The GOP does need to get back to its conservative roots. There are plenty of people who still believe, and act on the belief, that this is the land of opportunity, and if you are willing to work hard enough you can accomplish anything. These people are the kind of people that created this wonderful country. Those who are content to suck at the government teat, are those who have no faith in themselves, don’t want to work hard, or just buy the rhetoric that they are “victims”. The GOP needs to stress the uplifting message available to it, and not play the ball in the Democrats’ court. We need a messenger in the GOP, not of “hope”, but of self-determination and individual responsibility. Where is that person?
Kyle Wingfield, the GOP has no choice but to go conservative. Blue Dogs won on a totally conservative platform. Hell, Obama won running on a conservative platform. Mccain ran as a moderate and a reach across the aisle guy and HE LOST! MODERATES NEVER WIN ELECTIONS!
Expansion? Thats what you call the low wage service jobs created during the Bush years. Right. My ‘endpoints’ were the duration of the Bush presidency if you didn’t know. And if Republicans would argue for a more robust financial policy aside from cutting taxes I would be more inclined to see your view in a more positive light.
And companies don’t invest anymore, they take the government subsidies and move their headquarters to another country.
“…if Republicans are to win in, say, the Northeast, Steele said they “have to identify candidates who can win in the Northeast…”
This is a real problem. Maine, for example, has only elected 2 Democratic senators since 1854, in 1911 & 1973, & neither were re-elected. All others have been Republican. But, and a big but, Maine has never elected a conservative. All of the Republican senators have been moderates. This runs true all across the Northeast. The last Republican governor of NJ is in the Obama administration. What was Romney’s tag when he was governor of Mass. – “the liberal Republican Governor of Mass.”
Steele’s problem is raising money from hard core social conservatives
that he will spend on financing “social moderate” Republicans.
The neocon type Republicans just took out Chaffee in RI & Specter in PA.
That is 2 lost Senate seats.
A tunnel poking out from under Inman Park is an excellent political move. Inman Park, Grant Park, Fourth Ward is a bunch of liberals who will cry babay about a big hole in their back yard. CNN, WSB and the like will be all over it. Free advertising for the Ox pissing off a buch of Demon-crats. That plays well with Republicans all over the state! I will delcare the winner now…
Oxendine is driving the debate on transit in the same sense that Ahmadinijad is driving the debate on Middle East Peace (or in the sense that Joe Wilson (R-SC) is driving the debate on health care).
Please Axelfraud, Atlanta (both the city and the metro area) have excellent transit plans. All we have asked for is the state to give us permission to VOTE on whether to tax OURSELVES to fund those plans.
jconservative, what does that matter? Chaffee voted Democrat 90% of the time. I’d rather have a party with a majority of conservatives than RINOs. RINOs like Mccain lose us elections. The northeast is becoming a wasteland of corruption and bankruptcy anyway. I mean, libs are not too concerned with winning liberal seats in the south. So why should we care about the North East?
Kyle, I would like to think that conservatives have learned their lesson. Obama and the dems didn’t win by the landslide that media reports. It was more a message to conservatives to get back in line. Well, we’re in line now waiting to see if independent voters have had enough of dems in the 8 short months they’ve ruled both houses.
I’m betting they have. The question remains, will they be seeking candidates with an “I” behind their name? Independent candidates always put the hurt on dems but this time around, who knows? we could end up with a substantially mixed bag for the first time.
Ayes would be penny candy where lobbyists are concerned. It wouldn’t take ‘em long to learn how to game the system.
David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
3:17 pm
jconservative, what does that matter?
This matters. Chaffee lost when the neocon big money ran a neocon against him in the primary. Chaffee spent all his money winning the
primary & was broke for the general election. Whitehouse the really liberal Democrat took the seat.
That meant that when Congress convened in Jan 2007 the Democrats had 51 votes & thus controlled the Senate. Now click forward to Nov 2008.
Bush 43 has 34 nominations for Federal District attorney in the Judiciary committee for approval. All are Republicans. The Democratically controlled committee sits on the nominations.
Now that Obama is in the WH he is making new nominations, all Democrats,
& all will be approved. Obama gets 34 extra nominations.
Now had Chaffee been re-elected, and he probably would have, the Republicans would have controlled the 2007/2008 Senate. The seat count would have been 50 Rep & 50 Dem – & VP Cheney would have cast the tie breaker. And the Republican Judiciary would have approved all 34 District attorney nominations.
This whole scenario cost the conservative movement 34 district attorneys. And that is a big deal.
What matters is not the vote on individual bills but the size of your caucus. The party that controls the Senate controls the country.
jconservative, that’s all fine and dandy but you seem to forget that these RINOs vote with democrats more than they do with Republicans. Whose to say Chafee would not pull a Specter?
@@, Obama and the dems overreached and now they are where they are. They gambled on the notion that America is now a left leaning country. Could not be further from the truth.
David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
4:24 pm
jconservative, that’s all fine and dandy
I would like to win the war. I am willing to lose a few battles.
Note the following numbers: the national debt – $290.5 billion in 1960 — $11.6 trillion is 2009.
Sir, we conservatives are losing the war. You can’t win the war without control of the Senate.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention, jconservative. We’re trying to figure out why this is happening. In the meantime, I’m going to take down any future comments by posters who use my name.
In 2008 when the insurance industry was cramming the new version of uninsured motorist coverage down our throats like it was some kind of good idea for everyone, I never heard anything from Oxendine stating that it may not be good for 2+ car families. What seemed to be kept quiet was that if you had multiple cars under one person’s name (which is how most 2+ car families have the insurance policies set up, under the head of household) the uninsured motorist coverage that you already had available for any accident was the sum of both policies in your own name. The new UE coverage only added the other drivers policy value so if they had no insurance, you got nothing for the additional money paid for the new UE coverage. If you had $100,000 uninsured motorist coverage on both your cars, you really had $200,000 coverage available if needed AT NO ADDITIONAL COST TO YOU!!! If you have 2+ cars with uninsured motorist coverage and the sum of both is satisfactory, WHY PAY MORE MONEY FOR UE COVERAGE THAT MAY NOT ADD ANY ADDITIONAL VALUE IN THE EVENT OF AN ACCIDENT? Call your insurance company and ask specific questions if this is not true. Not only did this little fact seem to be never stated, it was made very difficult to opt out of the new UE coverage. You had to submit an opt-out statement in writing. Why? Normally I can buy insurance and set all the limits over the phone but this coverage had to be opted out in writing. Since I never heard anything from our insurance commissioner Oxendine explaining this, he has turned me off to him permanently. This hair brained scheme to build a road through the neighborhoods so the people from outside the area can get through Atlanta quicker on their way to the airport is just icing on the cake. This guy is not who I want in any office where he can do real damage.
jconservative, blame the GOP for not fighting hard. Blame Mccain and Huckabee for Romney not being the nominee. Blame the GOP for totally leaving behind the Contract with America.
Bottom line: The GOP needs to get back to conservatism and rid themselves of moderates.
@@, good to see you, comrade. Remember me……COMRADE?
No, can’t say that I do David. There’s only one poster (former) that I equate with COMRADE and he weren’t no conservative.
I predicted long before the election win that democrats would overreach. Never could I have imagined they would reach this far this fast. Obama’s good at riding the “merry”-go-round of a campaign but once he grabs that brass ring, he doesn’t know what to do with it.
The point I was trying to make was that conservatives have suffered the hard consequences. I hold out hope that should they be given another chance, they won’t repeat the same mistake. Can’t say that about democrats. They see no error in their ways but the public is quickly learning that they never change their ways.
Drop some more hints for me, COMRADE. You’ve got my curiosity aroused.
Transportation should be financed by increasing the tax on all motor fuels (and yes rapid transit ticket prices will have to go up also), not by a increase in state sales tax on all purchases.
The problem with relying on motor fuel taxes is that, over the next 10 or 20 years, gas will be less and less important as cars become more efficient. We’re going to have to have to start moving away from that funding model for transport. This will require legislators who think beyond the next election. (there are a few)
so let me get this straight rachel, when republicans call obama a socialist its a horrible thing to do, yet when nancy pelosi, and other democrats called people going to the town hall meetings to express their concern about a horrible healthcare plan un-american it was totally ok? I’m sorry but the double standards that you guys have is completely ridiculous and it really makes me wonder how anyone can be proud to call themselves a democrat
I have never seen a President be so clever as has President Obama. Who else could’ve known that so many people are so clueless about political theologies that he could actually increase his popularity by taking what people think they hate the most (conservatism), and disguise it as his own personal philosophy? Who knew that all we had to do to bring “conservative values” back in style was to call them liberal? This man is a genius!
i also love the comment about how it shouldn’t matter what party the president is from, he shouldn’t give a speech to school children, ESPECIALLY now. There is so much controversy surrounding healthcare, that some smart and informed kids may not want to listen to obama talk. Now, since the majority of teachers are democrat, doesn’t really make sense to me that “smart” people would call themselves democrat, what if a teacher decides to treat the students who refuse to watch differently? I know, in a perfect world this wouldn’t happen, but this isn’t a perfect world, and people let their bias get in the way of judgement all the time
I followed Michael Steele for years before his appointment, (well, a few years; I’m only 30) and based on the character shown through his other involvements, I would trust his word quicker than that of ANYONE, I’ve ever had the pleasure of voting for or against.
Oh yeah. One other legitimate criticism of the schitzo Republicans. The last three Republican administrations have been anything but fiscally conservative. They did not limit spending. Republicans love pork like every other politician. Republicans helped raise the national debt from 32% of GDP in 1980 when Reagan took office to 75% in 2009 when Obama took office. It declined under Clinton. We are broke at all levels of government. Dont raise taxes on gasoline for your stupid roads in rural Georgia, my property or income. I dont have any more money for your dumb ideas either.
David Axelfraud September 10th, 2009 1:23 pm SAID: Kyle Wingfield, the GOP has no choice but to go conservative. Blue Dogs won on a totally conservative platform. Hell, Obama won running on a conservative platform. Mccain ran as a moderate and a reach across the aisle guy and HE LOST! MODERATES NEVER WIN ELECTIONS!
CHRIS SAYS: ROFLMAO. What analysis!!! McCain lost because (A) The Republican brand is poison after 8 years of Bush and McCain’s performance during the campaign. Example: Recession? What recession??? and (B) Sarah Palin which drove moderate Republicans and Independents into Obama’s fold. I personally know many hard core Republicans who sat out the election because they were appalled by Sarah Palin.
In fact, as a liberal, I would want nothing more than see Sarah Palin again on a Presidential ticket. Heck, maybe that Michelle Bachman. That would be a liberal’s dream Republican ticket.
The majority in this country identify themselves as conservatives and Obama is no genius.
I like Mr. Still but he should know what is said about fighting the next war based on the last war you fought. Especially, when you lost the last war. The political dynamics of 2010, which is the next war, are going to be different than those of ‘08.
The news media is playing the Obama healthcare speech-up but that was a very angry speech Americans heard. I don’t think they feel it was the game changer for the good as the MSM and the Democrats would like everyone to believe it was.
David Axelfraud September 10th, 2009 5:57 pm SAID: Bottom line: The GOP needs to get back to conservatism and rid themselves of moderates.
CHRIS SAYS: LMAO. And who’s going to vote for the GOP? The GOP is shrinking and is now basically, a “Southern” WHITE party. The Democratic Party is growing more diverse like the rest of this country. Fewer and fewer minorities are calling themselves Republicans. In 30 years, this will be a “minority-majority” country. In fact, even right now, without 40% of the Latino vote, any GOP Presidential candidate will lose. Also, only about 25% of people in this country call themselves Republicans. Yeah, go ahead and follow Rush Limbaugh’s advice. His advice to Republicans during the last election really helped, didn’t it?
You and your ilk are like the Romans in Rome who, even when seeing the Barbarians rampaging down from first of the seven hills of Rome, still refused to believe that the end of their 1000 year empire was at hand.
Keep on drinking that cool-aid, kid. In fact, you had better stock up on it because its going to be a long and agonizing decline. And the best part? This is just the beginning!!!!
jconservative @ 2:29: Maine, for example, has only elected 2 Democratic senators since 1854, in 1911 & 1973, & neither were re-elected.
Typical Republican’t lying, yet again. Ever heard of George Mitchell? Appointed in 1980, elected in 1982, re-elected with a Maine-record-setting 81% of the vote?
Chris Salzmann writes: Yeah, go ahead and follow Rush Limbaugh’s advice. His advice to Republicans during the last election really helped, didn’t it?
Axelfraud says: Rush Limbaughs advice was to nominate a conservative. The voters nominated a moderate hack. So, no Mr. Idiot Salzbury Steak, you are wrong.
“But besides his bad behavior, Wilson’s greatest mistake was in limiting his critique to just one aspect of the proposed healthcare plan. Unlike many conservatives, I don’t find it necessary to attribute all sorts of devious motives to President Obama. Calling Obama a “socialist” is accurate, but he is simply the latest in a long line of socialist presidents who gave us Social Security, Medicare and other expansions of an ever-growing welfare state that too many Americans consider their birthright.”
Another 9/11 will pass in commemoration. Speeches well rehearsed will be given, all will be mournful and show respects for our nation’s dead. Except perhaps for “The 9/11 Truthers” of the Van Jones, Charlie Sheen ilk, the chanters of give peace a chance and war weary who shake their heads and say, it simply isn’t worth it.
Obama will now face defending his “Good War” in Afghanistan against these dissenting voices. His strongest foes will emerge from within his own ranks. In the final analysis politics will win again as it did before, our fighting forces will not lose militarily upon the field of battle only to suffer another humiliating defeat upon the floor of Congress where our enemies will continue win.
The politics of appeasement always ends badly as history has proven and it will do so again. Where freedom and liberty has no chance, peace has no opportunity nor can it gain one by conceding to the oppressors the victory of compromised freedom and liberty in the trusting virtues of Neville Chamberlain.
Since I am banned from Jay Bookmans blog, someone should send this to him since he thinks anti abortion people are evil. Looks like the tables have turned.
Anti-abortion activist shot in front of Owosso High School
OWOSSO, Michigan — State police at the Corunna post have confirmed a well-known anti-abortion activist was shot multiple times and killed this morning in front of Owosso High School.
The victim’s identity has not yet been released but the shooting occurred around 7:30 a.m., after most students were off t
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Your morning jolt: Health care and the return of Ralph Reed | Political Insider
August 17th, 2009
9:31 am
[...] Kyle Wingfield on a pared-down solution for Georgia. [...]
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Your morning jolt: On the need for a 'watermaster' to knock heads | Political Insider
August 24th, 2009
9:47 am
[...] Kyle Wingfield talks with Lynn Westmoreland about the hunt for GOP candidates. [...]
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CIA News Updates — August 27, 2009 | SVYT- The place for your daily news!
August 27th, 2009
10:20 am
[...] and Truth — The New YorkerA chilling effect on CIA agents? — L.A. Times opinionProbe shows 9/11 is, sadly, forgotten — AJC opinionEditorial: Tortured lessons on CIA abuses — Dallas News editorial [...]
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Your morning jolt: Jimmy Carter says Ted Kennedy bore consequences of Chappaquiddick 'like a man' | Political Insider
August 27th, 2009
10:35 am
[...] Kyle Wingfield says probe shows 9/11 is, sadly, forgotten. [...]
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Katie
August 27th, 2009
11:31 am
Just because we don’t talk about 911 daily doesn’t mean we’ve forgotten. There’s only 24 hours in a day. How many historical events should we be talking about every day in addition to our work, family and personal events?? Come on….
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AMB
August 27th, 2009
11:46 am
9/11 has not been forgotten. Neither have the Geneva Conventions, the Nuremberg Trials, or the military codes of conduct.
Torture cannot be condoned. Ever.
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HellinaHandBasket
August 27th, 2009
12:00 pm
Those of us who lost loved ones on 9/11 and have family members fighting in the resulting war in Iraq & now Afghanistan cannot forget. I miss those who have died and I live in fear that those in Iraq & Afghanistan will soon join them. I had hope that Obama would end the war in Iraq as promised & would not wage another war but he lied & has done neither. The madness continues as Obama blames others & he has the power to bring our troops home & does nothing. He is using the military to make himself look tough on terrorism but is doing little to give them the support & equipment they need. Ask any family who has to send blankets & food to their loved ones in Iraq/Afghanistan because they have been on 1 ration a day for weeks. Shame on us all for forgetting the terrorist attacks before 9/11 & that horrible day itself but more so shame on us all & specifically our government for risking the lives of our military but ignoring their basic needs. I love this country but I hate our government.
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JM
August 27th, 2009
12:05 pm
I don’t talk about it every day, but I think about it every day … trust me … 9/11 has not (and will never be) been forgotten.
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Wesley Au-Yeung
August 27th, 2009
12:22 pm
I invite you all to watch documentaries such as “Ghosts of Abu Ghraib” and other related films. Innumerable prisoners who were later tried “not guilty” were thoroughly tortured in a multitude of ways. “So? It makes our country safer!”
Try flipping the script. Imagine a military of another nation prescribing such acts of torture… on YOU. Or your son or daughter. And you know for a fact they/you are innocent. And they induce the never-ending pain until you succumb and even fabricate information just to make the horror stop.
9/11 is clearly an egregious act performed by few.
If there is solid–VERY SOLID–evidence for an inmate’s knowledge of potentially serious threats, I would support the idea of torture for him/her in particular. However, the government took it too far and injected xenophobia and anger/fear in their operations.
The triumphant resilience and precautions espoused by 9/11 should continue to influence our mindsets, lifestyles and memory, but it does not necessitate MANY of the tortures that have happened in our recent past.
Again, just imagine you (innocent) being the target.
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Wesley Au-Yeung
August 27th, 2009
12:25 pm
With all that said, I agree with most of the points you’ve made, HellinaHandBasket.
I’m a Marine veteran and one of my commanding officers once stated (prior to shipment to Iraq): “the military is the strongest political tool.”
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kwingfield
August 27th, 2009
12:35 pm
Let’s focus less on the headline and more on the issue I was trying to address: That these CIA agents might face prosecution for doing what the nation essentially asked of them at the time (prevent another attack at all costs), and it’s because we’re judging them with a different perspective than they could have had at the time.
AMB: That’s a perfectly reasonable opinion, even if I would argue that in a handful of circumstances it carries significant risks.
Wesley Au-Yeung: The CIA inspector general’s report makes clear that the inmates in question — i.e. not those at Abu Ghraib, unless they’re mentioned in the (many) redacted sections — were believed to have the kind of knowledge you’re talking about. It also makes clear that this kind of treatment was the exception, not the norm.
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Hal
August 27th, 2009
12:36 pm
If people can pretend there’s a God I can pretend that crap didn’t nothing because there was nothing to stop. Same a-holes that ignored memos and flight schools. Fool me once with these suits in DC.
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Truth Seeker
August 27th, 2009
12:39 pm
Yeah I don’t know how I could have stood having panties on my head…
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Big AL
August 27th, 2009
12:57 pm
I will never forget 911. I remember where I was, and the chill that went through me when I was told, we were being attacked. That was the most horrifing ordeal I have lived to see thus far. However, that does not give us the right to break international laws. If I lose my job, and my babies are starving, we have no electricity, water, or gas, I don’t believe the judge will find me “not guilty” for armed robbery. He will not look at my circumstances and say I was justified. The judge will find me guilty, and send me to prison. With that said, my heart goes out to the agents for their sacrifice, but as I have heard so often said, “Do the crime do the time”.
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Hillbilly Deluxe
August 27th, 2009
1:05 pm
I don’t believe anything more than perhaps a couple of low level prosecutions will ever come of this. It’s basically a smoke screen to distract us from our current problems. They’re using this to take the heat off our domestic problems. While we argue about this we don’t have our eye on the ball. It’s an old political trick.
I do feel sorry for whoever the sacrificial lambs will be.
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Jefferson
August 27th, 2009
1:11 pm
Those who caused it are dead.
Those who planned it — should beware.
If the airlines had locks on the cockpit doors, like they knew they should — there would have been fewer deaths. 20-20 hindsight.
Why did the gov’t pay off the families ? Guilt ? Fear of litigation.
Like Pearl Harbor, 9/11 should not be forgotton.
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NetBanker
August 27th, 2009
1:31 pm
As a person who grew up in a military town with a father who was a research scientist on a military base I’m really torn about the issue of torture. I have great respect for our members of the military and believe in a strong defense. I’m sure my views are greatly influenced by growing up with military brats and running around on an army base all the time. However, the use of waterboarding against U.S. soldiers by the Japanese during WWI was considered torture and a war crime. If that technique was considered torture 50 years ago why isn’t it now? Because WE are the ones doing it to others? If waterboarding was or would now be considered torture if used against OUR soldiers then I have a really hard time justifying its use against foreign combatants or soldiers.
I do not think that the CIA officers should be prosecuted. I know that it is considered an excuse to carry out orders that one knows will result in a war crime, but my personal opinion is that carrying out orders should provide protection to those executing the order, but not those who either gave them or provided the basis for making the orders legal. Going after the CIA officers is akin to the soldiers at Abu Graib. Where is the accountability up the chain of command that authorized the use of EITs? Those are the people who should be held accountable…even if that means it was the former V.P. or President himself. Tough times and being the top dog does NOT make you above the law…even if you find lawyers who work for you to interpret or twist the law to say it means what you want it to in order to accomplish what you want. Simply stated for me the ends do not justify the means.
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Kim
August 27th, 2009
1:32 pm
Just because Duhbya, McSame, et al aren’t saying 911 every other word, doesn’t mean it’s forgotten. Thanks for the protection Duhbya & Condi!!
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2Cents
August 27th, 2009
1:39 pm
The criminalization of presidential policies, if the democrats continue down this road, it will only escalate in the future. When Obama’s time is done, his policies will be raked through by republicans, with the ensuing ‘criminal’ behavior and scapegoats. One may not agree with an individual president and his policies, but this is nonsense. Presidents have the right to enact policies. The next president can, and often should, say he disagrees, won’t continue, will abandon, whatever policy he chooses. But criminalizing policy just increases partisanship and keeps good people like lawyers, possible CIA agents, and others from working for the govt. Good luck unringing this bell.
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Activecitizen54
August 27th, 2009
1:54 pm
Kyle may be touted as a “30 something conservative” but he demonstrates open contempt for the rule of law, the mindless sheep mentality that leads to “I was just following orders” and the heinous crimes committed under that guise are known from Nazi acts through the Viet Nam police action and extend to the CIA in Gitmo and Homeland Security Gestapo of today. An idiot with a basic supposition of “9/11 is forgotten” and is just following his own mouth music as conservatives are wont to do. Grow up and become responsible for self first then focus on the real damage torture does to our troops in the field and the quality of the “intelligence” gathered. I’ll bet he has a shrine to the Bush family on his desk…. Other attacks being imminent is as accurate as Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq and are another graphic example of conservative mindless sheep demonstrating that the blind really do follow the blind…
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booger
August 27th, 2009
2:12 pm
What we are doing now will set our intelligence gathering back twenty years. It’s reported that the CIA is currently in a holding pattern because the rules are being blurred, and if any of them are prosecuted, it will have chilling effect on all intelligence related areas.
The real question I have is why the flip flop from Obama on this subject. He has already stated he has no appetite for pursuing this, now suddenly he does.
As for torture, I fail to see how any of the things mentioned so far carry that lable. Threats are not torture. Hurting someone is torture.
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Billy Bob
August 27th, 2009
2:12 pm
I’ve always considered the enhanced techniques used by CIA to be useful so long as it was not (permanently) physically harmful to the detainee. If permanent physical harm is being alleged by some detainees then let the prosecution begin, but merely thinking you’re going to die isn’t sufficient grounds to claim torture. Ask any Navy SEAL candidate going through BUD/S training.
NetBanker,
The Japanese and Germans were guilty of far more heinous and clearly defined acts of torture than waterboarding. Starvation, summary execution by bayonet or beheading and medical experimentation were certainly confirmed practices. Waterboarding would be the least of many Japanese prisoners concerns and the water would have been welcome by U.S. prisoners on Bataan.
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kwingfield
August 27th, 2009
2:20 pm
Activecitizen54: Are you seriously comparing a CIA officer firing a gun in another room — harming no one — to a Nazi soldier who killed people in gas chambers?
As for the quality of the intelligence gathered, read the report…the reasonable conclusion is that EITs were applied to an extremely limited number of people, and that they led to those handful of people being more cooperative. If you’d prefer that they kept that information to themselves at the risk of American lives, you’re entitled to that opinion. But nothing in the report supports the idea that these interrogation techniques were entirely superfluous.
As for whether attacks really were imminent, that’s my point: Those agents didn’t know at the time what we know now. And the IG’s report lists a number of terror plots that were uncovered through the interrogations.
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Howard
August 27th, 2009
3:00 pm
I say allow the Muslims to take control of all the major cities in this country, esp. Washington, DC…and allow them to impose Sharia law for one month…by the letter. Then see how many of these liberals love ‘em. Of course with this bunch in control of this country, that could some day be a real possibility. Liberal Democrats would turn over the keys to the country if they were allowed to stay in power. Oh, Kyle, one comment on the passing of the “Lion of the Senate,” Ted Kennedy. Yea, he was the lion and we were his prey…as for his passing…lost as much sleep over it as when John Gotti died.
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Kim
August 27th, 2009
3:18 pm
Billy Bob: “The Japanese and Germans were guilty of far more heinous and clearly defined acts of torture than waterboarding. Starvation, summary execution by bayonet or beheading and medical experimentation were certainly confirmed practices. Waterboarding would be the least of many Japanese prisoners concerns and the water would have been welcome by U.S. prisoners on Bataan.”
So this is the standard we need to live ‘up’ to???
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Barnacle Bill Bavasi
August 27th, 2009
3:20 pm
When I calls ‘em out, they finally step up to the plate. Game on Mr. Wingfield. Welcome.
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extremerightwing
August 27th, 2009
3:41 pm
obamite appointees better beware of this if holder goes through with his witchhunt. you know what they say about payback and there is nothing like political payback. obama, by not stopping holder, is setting this nation up. the badguys know he is weak just like the russians knew carter was weak. bad things happen when you are weak.
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catlady
August 27th, 2009
5:50 pm
Baby steps
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Karl Childers
August 27th, 2009
5:56 pm
AMB – terrorists are not part of any military force and therefore should not be granted the same protections as soldiers. You are terribly naive.
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Ironman Carmichael
August 27th, 2009
6:58 pm
The attempt to make a moral rationale out of torture on the grounds that the end justifies the means is like encouraging your children to cheat in school as long as they get into a good college. To argue that “our” torture is nicer than “their” torture is like saying shoplifting should be allowed because it’s not grand larceny. To correlate an investigation of torture with “having forgotten 9/11″ is simply morally indefensible.
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Michael H. Smith
August 27th, 2009
8:43 pm
I hope this will post, Kyle. I tried several times before on other AJC blogs, unfortunately it was not allowed. However, it is very apropos to this blog topic.
Senator Chuck Schumer spoke out on the controversy over torture a while back in an interview on MSNBC: Senator Schumer said the officials who approved enhanced interrogation techniques should be investigated.
Senator Chuck Schumer (D) New York: I have some faith in Eric Holder and the Obama administration on this issue. The first day they said OK water-boarding is torture. We’re not going to torture and the most important thing they did is they extended the Army manual which isn’t bad…
That is Senator Schumer in the interview on MSNBC.
But back in 2004, Senator Schumer was telling an entirely different story. Senator Schumer then said that he and most of his colleagues would support the use of torture if it would save American lives.
Senator Chuck Schumer: If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city, and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe, maybe, would give us a chance at finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say do what you have to do. So it is easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used, but when you are in the foxhole it is a very different deal.
“When you are in the foxhole and not five years later doing an interview it really is a very different deal.”
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Arnie
August 28th, 2009
7:07 am
Thought this would be of interest to readers.
Since September 2001 I have maintained a free and confidential “9/11 list-serv”.
The “9/11 list-serv” distributes daily e-mails containing newspaper articles and other relevant information re: 9/11 issues of interest to 9/11 families, 9/11 organizations and interested individuals.
The 9/11 List-serv archives can be accessed at http://groups.google.com/group/911-list-serv
If you would like to ’subscribe’ to this free news service – send an e-mail to amkorotkin@aol.com with the word “subscribe” in the subject box.
Arnie
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bluerider
August 28th, 2009
8:28 am
NYC CAN News Bulletin – FORWARD WIDELY
SILENCING OF NYC VOTERS WILL NOT GO UNCHALLENGED
August 24, 2009
On Monday, August 10, NYC CAN began a comprehensive review of the nearly 26,000 signatures invalidated by the New York City Board of Elections and City Clerk. With 26,003 signatures accepted as valid by the City, at least 3,997 additional signatures were needed to exceed the threshold of 30,000 signatures. 10 days, 50 volunteers and 1,000 man-hours later, we are thrilled to report we have so far discovered 6,924 signatures we will argue were wrongly invalidated.
In addition, the Court has granted an extension allowing us to complete our review of 6 unfinished volumes. We anticipate having well over 7,000 additional valid signatures once the review is complete. The 50+ individuals who helped conduct the review take great pride in knowing their work has stopped the silencing of 7,000 New York City voters and allowed their voices to be heard.
On Friday, August 28, we must serve a Bill of Particulars listing all signatures we argue should be deemed valid by the Court. Special Referee Louis Crespo will begin a line-by-line review of the disputed signatures on Tuesday, September 8, and is scheduled to complete his review by Friday, September 18.
Pending the outcome of the Court’s review of the disputed signatures, lawyers for NYC CAN and the City will begin arguing the legality of the petition’s proposed amendment to the City Charter.
Looking ahead, NYC CAN will submit an additional 28,000 signatures on September 3 to satisfy the requirement of 15,000 valid signatures needed to override the City Council’s failure to act on the petition. The 60-day period for the City Council to approve the referendum’s placement on the ballot ended today, August 24, 2009. If NYC CAN wins in court, the submission of 15,000 more valid signatures will guarantee the referendum’s placement on the ballot.
Legal proceedings are expected to last through the month of September, by which time a favorable determination from the Court is needed in order for the referendum to be placed on this November’s ballot. Over the last 25 years six ballot initiatives have been attempted in New York City. Only one has made it on the ballot: the 1993 initiative to limit New York City elected officials to two terms in office, whose supporters also had to go to court to prove the initiative legal before passage by the voters, and which was nevertheless undone by the City Council last year. We will battle against all odds to see that the initiative to establish a critically needed reinvestigation of 9/11 does not suffer the same fate as past ballot initiatives.
NYC CAN now calls upon its thousands of members and millions aware of the egregious inadequacy of the 9/11 Commission Report to help ensure our fight for a real investigation does not go unnoticed by the larger public. Nearly 80,000 New Yorkers have put pen to paper to call for the right of all New Yorkers to vote an impartial, independent investigation into existence. This momentous step forward in the quest for truth about September 11th will be looked upon with admiration across the globe. Through the ages those who have fought for justice did not win by backing down when their government said no. We will continue this fight and future efforts with the same determination that has gotten us to where we stand today.
http://www.NYCCAN.org
Thinkers think and talkers talk. Patriots ACT.
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Les Miles
August 28th, 2009
8:30 am
No Kyle. It hasn’t been forgotten. What has happened is that it is no longer allowed to be used as the built in excuse for trampling all over the 4th Amendment and no longer a fast track for those that would turn this country into a police state. “Those that would give up their freedom for security, deserve neither”. No truer words have ever been spoken.
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Les Miles
August 28th, 2009
8:38 am
BigAl has this nailed. If I lose my job, and my babies are starving, we have no electricity, water, or gas, I don’t believe the judge will find me “not guilty” for armed robbery. He will not look at my circumstances and say I was justified. The judge will find me guilty, and send me to prison. With that said, my heart goes out to the agents for their sacrifice, but as I have heard so often said, “Do the crime do the time”.
If the law is situational, it should be situational across the board.
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Les Miles
August 28th, 2009
8:56 am
HellinaHandbasket, nobody is forgetting. However courageous Americans are standing up and saying HELL NO it will not be used as an excuse to destroy our Constitution and turn us into a society living under a government that considers us the enemy. I applaud those who are standing against “big brother” bringing us totally under thumb. If you want to live in a country where government surveillance is the norm, or “show me your papers” is common, go live in one of those places. Give up your freedom for a little false security. Go on.
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Chris Salzmann
August 28th, 2009
10:13 am
kwingfield August 27th, 2009 12:35 pm SAID: Let’s focus less on the headline and more on the issue I was trying to address: That these CIA agents might face prosecution for doing what the nation essentially asked of them at the time (prevent another attack at all costs), and it’s because we’re judging them with a different perspective than they could have had at the time.
CHRIS SAYS: Comments are finally allowed!!!! Hooray! That said, my beef with your reasoning here is that these actions went well beyond 9/11. In fact, many of the torture techniques used, were used 2-3 years later.
We prosecuted Japanese officers as war criminals after WWII and this type of torture was one of the crimes listed against them. An American soldier was photographed waterboarding a North Vietnamese POW, near Da Nang and the accompanying article described it as a common interrogation technique. Within one month of its publication, that soldier was court-martialled by a US military court and discharged from the military. The excuse “Just following orders” also does not hold any merit. That excuse did not hold any water when we prosecuted and convicted war criminals from Japan and Germany.
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Reform Will Happen
August 28th, 2009
12:22 pm
test
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jconservative
August 28th, 2009
12:43 pm
About time Kyle.
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Hannibal Lechter
August 28th, 2009
2:13 pm
Scaredy cat
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Catamount Crazy
August 28th, 2009
3:55 pm
Don’t deard having to deal with the blogging crazies?
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Hal
August 28th, 2009
5:35 pm
Great job Kyle. Looking forward to you “torturing” the far left with facts and reason. This is gonna be good…..
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jt
August 29th, 2009
8:12 am
I look forward to a well-educated, intelligent man defending his membership in the big-spending, big-goverment Republican party.
Will it be the default, “lesser of two evils”?
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catlady
August 29th, 2009
10:30 am
Student teachers don’t have so much time to “get ready” after being announced as “ready”. Not ready for prime time?
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dewstarpath
August 29th, 2009
2:19 pm
- K. Wingfield – The 9/11 terrorist attacks will never be forgotten, but it’s
probably true for some Americans, and you have a right to your opinion.
– Howard – Inexcusable. “we were his (Sen. Kennedy) prey…”? What “we”
are you talking about? A senator who had bipartisan respect form his
colleagues is compared after he passes to JOHN GOTTI? That may pass
on your home planet, but on Earth we expect common sense to be used
by ALL citizens.
- extremerightwing – In order to vote, you should at least know when to use
capital letters at the beginning of a sentence.
- Les Miles – I agree completely. Politically-challenged whack jobs (like
extremerightwing et al.) don’t understand that if the 4th Amendment were
theoretically abolished to chase after “evildoers”, they would have more
to lose than the average citizen. The average citizen doesn’t stockpile
large amounts of weapons and explosives or write manifestos calling
attention to themselves or send mail-bombs to judges, editors and
CEOs. Maybe that’s because they seek to create the type of police-state
they claim to abhor in order to protect themselves from “undesirables”,
such as minorities, immigrants, etc. Those who fail to learn from the past
are doomed to repeat it.
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catlady
August 29th, 2009
2:42 pm
Bwawk, bwawk. Is it a chicken or a hawk?
What was the original date the AJC said Wooten’s “replacement” would be on board? I was thinking it was 2 months ago!
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dewstarpath
August 31st, 2009
2:39 am
CORRECTION: – bipartisan respect from his colleagues.
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Your morning jolt: The four-month fund-raising desert | Political Insider
August 31st, 2009
9:35 am
[...] Kyle Wingfield on getting race out of the race. [...]
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griftdrift
August 31st, 2009
3:11 pm
Kyle,
Please stop being so reasonable. You’re giving me nothing to work with.
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@@
August 31st, 2009
3:45 pm
Not being a resident of the city, I’ve got no dog in this fight. Unfortunately Mr. Turpeau may have diminished the chances of a candidate he supports through guilt by association.
Mr. Turpeau, who contributed $500 to Ms. Borders’ campaign, defended the memo’s message.
“You shouldn’t vote solely on having a black candidate,” he said. “You have to deal with the credentials and skill set first. After that, it’s a feeling of pride that we’ve had for 35 years in this town. Ego gets important.”
EGO!!?!! Ego can often be mistaken for arrogance — a characteristic within politicians that has become all too offensive to the “average” American regardless of party OR race.
Mr. Turpeau is exposed by the invisible “BUT” that falls between the first two sentences and the last. Forget what he said in the first two sentences — his intention was made clear in the last.
African Americans need to toss “pigeon-holes” like Turpeau to the curb.
Good article Kyle. Far more succinct and less-tainted with justification than another AJC columnist whose name I will not mention.
Welcome aboard!!!
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@@
August 31st, 2009
4:02 pm
One more thing, Kyle. When was the last time a Republican held the office of mayor. Maybe the city should give one a try. I don’t care whether he/she is white/black/asian or hispanic.
He/she/they might just succeed in bringing the city out of its Democratic doldrums.
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Disgusted
August 31st, 2009
4:26 pm
When was the last time a Republican held the office of mayor.
Oh, I can just see an Atlanta population gushing support for school voucher programs, business incentives, and big trickle-down city tax breaks for the wealthy. Dream on, @@.
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@@
August 31st, 2009
5:06 pm
Disgusted:
I always say if one’s gonna dream, one should dream BIG!!! Otherwise it’s just waste(D) effort. Kinda like trickling down a storm drain. The opportunity to flush ain’t there. It just accumulates emitting a foul odor.
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Hillbilly Deluxe
August 31st, 2009
5:12 pm
@@
Just guessing I’d say the last Republican Mayor of Atlanta was probably during Reconstruction.
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@@
August 31st, 2009
6:34 pm
Hillbilly Deluxe, I’m so happy to see you back.
I’ve missed you more than you know.
If my rant scared you away, I apologize but only to you.
There are those who deserved it…then there are others who, I hope, understood it.
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Hillbilly Deluxe
August 31st, 2009
6:48 pm
@@
Nah, I don’t remember any rant. Just don’t care for the goings on over there. I prefer to keep discussions civil and that seldom happens.
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@@
August 31st, 2009
7:31 pm
Hillbilly Deluxe:
I’m glad you didn’t see my rant. I was so engrossed in my anger with one particular blogger that I wasn’t reading any of the other comments.
Anyhoo, go ahead and share your thoughts on Kyle’s column. I’m always willing to listen to a man of few words. Words delivered with wisdom.
(IW&SH)
BTW, oftentimes reconstruction (politically speaking) is a good thing. I never again want to witness one-party rule in Washington. The American people become an afterthought when a political party gains too much power. It becomes all about them and their party.
There are those that believe nothing can get done unless there’s one party rule. I’m thinking that there are enough moderates who are beginning to see that as a problem with a solution. THEM.
Of course….I could be dreaming but hey…
a girl’s gotta dream.
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Darren
August 31st, 2009
8:24 pm
Some folks say that if there’s no majority in Washington nothing gets done.
I say good. We’ve reached a point where the less government does, the better off the people are.
Let them sit on their hands. Wait to be summoned by WE THE PEOPLE.
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Danforth
September 1st, 2009
12:06 am
No, there does not need to be a Republican mayor if he/she is anything like Sonny Perdue.
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Willy
September 1st, 2009
11:21 am
Apparently, all it takes to cover for someone to spout racist material and then cover for that material is that it was done in the name of “academic analysis.” If by analysis you mean openly laying out campaign strategy that singles out one race to be defeated because of that person’s race, then analyze away. Why stop there? Why not create whole districts that vote for a certain group favorable to the “academic analysis” scheme? Oh wait, it’s been done. How about decreasing the standards of an examination for fireman in the north to allow for a more “inclusive” pool? Been there, done that. Why not engage in an “it’s our time to turn the screw” mentality despite the overwhelming evidence that at no other time in American history has more opportunity been available to a wider range of the populace. Yeah. The only thing owed to anyone in this country is the opportunity of a level playing field. That has been achieved. The professors had every right under the Constitution to express their opinions. To deny them would deny basic rights. What they are guilty of is using their positions and influence to perpetuate the myth that keeping historically black districts within their race is a positive for their neighborhoods. Just shut up and win on the content of your character, not the ugliness of your policy.
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bje
September 1st, 2009
11:42 pm
I don’t know if I am more offended by a) the obvious discriminatory message of the memo or b) the frighteningly illogical attempt by the memo’s authors to redefine what is obvious content wise to any learned person or c) the poorly articulated apologetics contained in the missive or, perhaps d) Clark Atlanta suggesting that this memo doesn’t represent the view of the CAU faculty when, in fact, these gentleman are CAU faculty members.
It is tough to decide whether the anachronistic nature of the advocation for a mayoral candidate based simply on race or the fact that these men get tabbed as “professors” when they clearly lack some of the fundamentals we would hope for in graduating students.
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catlady
September 2nd, 2009
12:23 pm
Get rid of this dude!
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Davo
September 2nd, 2009
3:23 pm
“That’s not a vote of confidence for either party.”
Good. Bring forth the Libertarians.
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griftdrift
September 2nd, 2009
3:25 pm
“Now, one might argue that these independent voters are simply saying that GOP voters are very conservative and Democratic voters are fairly moderate.”
As an independent I’d say that’s exactly it. However, this is the type of poll that is dependent on how the questions are worded. Without seeing Rasmussen’s actual questions, we have little context. And considering how tortured the explanation is, I can only imagine the muddied the parameters were.
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kwingfield
September 2nd, 2009
4:46 pm
The Rasmussen articles have links to the questions (though you have to pay to read the cross-tabs…and I don’t). They asked:
“Is the average Republican in Congress more conservative than the average Republican voter, more liberal, or about the same?”
Same phrasing for the question about Democrats. I’d say the phrasing is pretty straight-forward.
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jconservative
September 2nd, 2009
7:26 pm
I have been preaching for years that the enemy is not Republicans, the enemy is not Democrats, the enemy is Incumbents. But I am a lone soul crying in the wilderness.
Here is what Incumbents have brought us:
The national debt – $290.5 billion in 1960 — $11.6 trillion is 2009
This is the gift of Incumbents to the American people—who keep electing them.
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jt
September 2nd, 2009
8:20 pm
We should not only fire every incumbent, but also, seize their respective pensions to shore up social security, medicare, and medicaid. Every incumbent that is fired should also be subject to an audit of their financial portfolios to determine if their time in office has unethically benefited them.
Ron Paul would be the only incumbent with a record to prove non- culpability.
The American people deserve some ex-post facto justice and a good Robbespierre.
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Hillbilly Deluxe
September 2nd, 2009
11:51 pm
A pox on both their houses.
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Churchill's MOM
September 3rd, 2009
6:37 am
Finally we can blog. You need to learn that just because a person calls theirself a Republican does not make them a Conservative. How about writing about the failures of our 2 Socialist Senators.
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catlady
September 3rd, 2009
7:03 am
“In general,” the new justice said, “I would say I hearken back to those of the Founding Fathers. No women, blacks, or unlanded need expect for their vote to count.” Nah, he didn’t really say that, although some would hope he would. Perhaps he will turn out to be a “nonpartisan” judge.
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jt
September 3rd, 2009
7:52 am
Just another overpaid lawyer that the American working poor has to carry on their backs for life.
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Road Scholar
September 3rd, 2009
7:57 am
JT: So how would you assign judges to the Ga Supreme Court? You must pay for competency and experience.
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s
September 3rd, 2009
8:19 am
J Dobson – what the bleep does all thatt have to do with the price of tea in China?
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Mort Merkel
September 3rd, 2009
8:28 am
It means that the former employees will no longer be able to afford tea, so the Chinese tea exporters will lower the price .000000000000000000001 of one cent, in order to compensate for the decrease in sales.
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David Axelfraud
September 3rd, 2009
8:39 am
Kyle, welcome to the AJC blogs. Look forward to your opinions.
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David Axelfraud
September 3rd, 2009
8:41 am
Not to change the subject, but Obamas about to get an even ruder wake up call. Sarah Palin was dead on when she brought up death panels in the health care bill.
Sentenced to death on the NHS
Patients with terminal illnesses are being made to die prematurely under an NHS scheme to help end their lives, leading doctors have warned.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html
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Morons
September 3rd, 2009
8:41 am
Overpaid? You realize that we just got pretty much the most brilliant young lawyer in this state appointed to our Supreme Court, right? Look at this man’s biography – it is unreal. He has devoted pretty much an entire professional career to public service. Do you have any idea how little he is going to get paid for the thankless job of being an appellate judge compared to what he would make as an equity partner at one of the big law firms in town? Lets just say he is taking a paycut of nearly a million dollars a year. We should feel fortunate that he has agreed to serve us in this fashion rather than take a few years off from public service to rake in the big bucks.
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Edwina
September 3rd, 2009
8:46 am
Turn to the right!
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Cutty
September 3rd, 2009
9:02 am
“One might assume that his prosecutorial experience would lead him to have more empathy – to use a buzzword from Sotomayor’s nomination – for, say, police officers and how a given ruling might hamper them in the future.”
So empathy is good when its coming from the right and it favors law enforcement? D*mn the people huh? Thought some of you decent conservatives would’ve learned in the last 8 years that everything a republicans does is ‘right’.
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William
September 3rd, 2009
9:10 am
I am glad to see the whackos from the Atlanta area do not have the power to push through a lberal judge like the liberals in washington can do.
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William
September 3rd, 2009
9:11 am
everytime I post here I get a virus alert…do any of you experience this?
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David Axelfraud
September 3rd, 2009
9:15 am
William, buy a mac.
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jconservative
September 3rd, 2009
9:16 am
Disinclined to legislate from the bench? If he is learning from Scalia then he is learning from one of the most prolofic “legislators from the bench” in SCOTUS history. I still maintain that Scaalia is the best legislator in DC.
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T-Bo
September 3rd, 2009
9:31 am
We certainly don’t want judges who legislate from the bench — after all, that’s what happened in “Bush v. Gore” and we’ll be suffering the consequences of that judicial activism for a long time to come. Now, tell me again which justices were the majority on “Bush v. Gore”?
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Will
September 3rd, 2009
9:42 am
I wish Justice Nahmias well and pray that he will judge from the law and not from some favored republican philosophy and/or dictate.
Although not subject to confirmation as are Supreme Court justices, I understand and accept that elections have consequences and one of the most important is the appointment of judges. Although I would not have chosen Justice Nahmias, I certainly was hardly surprised nor will I hold my breath and pout that the republican governor of Georgia has chosen a republican Justice that is most likely to judge as a republican governor would hope.
The cycle of partisan votes for Supreme Court justices is complete and will probably never change in my lifetime. Most democrat senators, including then Senator Obama, refused to confirm President Bush’s last two nominees, both well qualified, because they were not democrat Justices and most republicans did the same thing with Justice Sotomayor. They will also do the same thing with President Obama nominees to replace Justices Stevens and Ginsberg, both of whom will almost certainly retire before the next presidental election.
As a matter of fact, you can go ahead and fax this press release to Senator Chambliss for future use: “Today President Obama nominated (fill in the blank with any name)to replace Justice John Paul Stevens, who announced his retirement last month. In reponse, US Senator Saxby Chambliss noted that he was deeply troubled by the liberal activist record of (fill in with any nominee that President Obama would offer). According to Senator Chambliss (you could also replace his name with almost any republican senator), “while I remain uncommitted at this point, (fill in the blank)deeply troubles me as I see his/her judicial record as one that will continue to lead the country down the road to (fill in the blank here – socialism, communism, murder of the unborn, being overrun with illegal immigrants, justice through identity politics, empathy – I am certain you can think of many more terms to use in this blank).
President Obama will most likely have the opportunity to protect the four vote democrat wing of the Supreme Court and the four vote republican wing of the Supreme Court is young and healthy enough to be untouchable for the foreseeable future. That leaves Justice Kennedy, who appears to be about .75 republican and about .25 democrat.
Unless he retires, the Supreme Court will remain 4.75 republican and 4.25 democrat even if President Obama is re-elected. Only if he is re-elected and then followed by another democrat will the Court become majority democrat.
In Georgia, republicans are likely to control the General Assembly and the Governor’s office for the foreseeable future and almost any judicial choice will reflect this partisan political philosophy.
What’s that you say, democrats would do the same thing if they were in control? Of course they would (and did). You don’t really think there is a dime’s worth of difference between democrats and republicans when it comes to partisan opportunity do you? Elections have consequences.
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Your morning jolt: Chapman joins GOP race for governor | Political Insider
September 3rd, 2009
9:51 am
[...] Kyle Wingfield ponders a shift to the right by the state’s high court. [...]
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Billy Bob
September 3rd, 2009
10:00 am
David Nahmias is an excellent choice for the Georgia Supreme Court. His selection provides clear support for the role, and rule, of law in Georgia.
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People everywhere are mad at their politicians | Kyle Wingfield
September 3rd, 2009
10:07 am
[...] tend to be Democrats, but public anger is aimed at career politicians of all stripes. As I wrote yesterday about recent polling numbers, both parties ignore this aspect of the public’s dissatisfaction [...]
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kwingfield
September 3rd, 2009
10:14 am
Cutty: I didn’t use “empathy” approvingly there. If the law says a defendant has a particular right in the course of a trial, and a judge were to rule against the defendant and in favor of law enforcement out of empathy, that would be wrong. And David Nahmias’ comments indicate he wouldn’t do that, even if some people will expect that of him.
President Obama’s comments about “empathy,” on the other hand, suggest that under certain other circumstances he would find it appropriate for a judge to rule based on empathy. That’s the difference.
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Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
September 3rd, 2009
10:45 am
Well, long as this new judge don’t throw out the Death Penalty or rule against big business or rule in favor of someone that got convicted or overturn a State Law I’m all for him. I’m sick of these libruls on GA courts. Both of them.
I’m awful glad to see this Wingfield finally letting people blog. For awhile I thought he was ducking us, sort of like the 115-lb. weakling hiding behind the teacher in the school yard.
Have a good day everybody.
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Davo
September 3rd, 2009
10:46 am
It’s hard enough trying to figure out American politics. Who really cares what Japan or Germany do to run their pissant societies?
Please stick to matters we can relate to…and be a conservative as you claim; not a republican apologist. How about a nice article on how Ron Paul will save our country?
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kwingfield
September 3rd, 2009
11:00 am
Davo, I might be new at this but I’m not sure how my saying that giving Republicans power “hardly seems like the answer,” that it’s “a combination of the Bush and Obama eras that has people seething,” and that “public anger is aimed at career politicians of all stripes” qualifies me as a “republican apologist.”
Ron Paul, by the way, is a Republican.
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kwingfield
September 3rd, 2009
11:09 am
J Dobson and Churchill’s MOM: It’s a possible copyright violation to publish entire articles from other news outlets here, not to mention that it makes the blog hard to read. So I’m taking down your posts and providing links here:
Focus on the Family story that J Dobson posted: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gpz_Jyp-YYgaZX6ldhX23l4ZH44gD9AFEPGG0
Gail Collins column on Sarah Palin that Churchill’s MOM posted: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/03/opinion/03collins.html?em
In the future, please provide the links yourselves…I’m not going to keep doing this for you (or other posters).
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William
September 3rd, 2009
11:25 am
David Axelfraud
September 3rd, 2009
9:15 am
I am too poor! I do not have a job in Atlanta making the big bucks.
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3rd Party Guy
September 3rd, 2009
11:29 am
“Who really cares what Japan or Germany do to run their pissant societies?”
Davo, I’m not one to say these countries have everything figured out, but that comment reeks of willful ignorance. No country in the world has a perfect system, but there are things that other countries do better than the good ol’ USA.
Kyle, I think a rapid swing back to Republicans is highly likely now due to the current congressional leadership’s general corruption and ineptitude. Of course, that will just mean we will have another “mandate” for loss of freedom and corporate executive greed.
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jconservative
September 3rd, 2009
11:30 am
John Adams, Ben Franklin & Thomas Jefferson would call it “incumbency”.
That’s the habit of people to vote over & over for the same old tired retreads. And, as I say over & over, the enemy is not Republicans, the enemy is not Democrats, the enemy is Incumbents. And, my fellow citizens, what has “incumbency” brought you these past 50 years?
The national debt – $290.5 billion in 1960 — $11.6 trillion in 2009.
This was brought to you by the Incumbents you continue to return to office year after year. Congratulations.
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jconservative
September 3rd, 2009
11:32 am
And you can add Britain to the list as they are about to dump the LIberal Party for the Conservative Party.
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Jessica
September 3rd, 2009
11:33 am
I think we need two things to get our country headed in the right directions.
The first is NEW Republicans in office. I think the Republican party needs to go find some real, competent conservatives from state and local government and send them to Washington. I think a lot of voters agree with conservative ideas, but they are angry because the Republicans they elected in the past decade or so didn’t govern by those principles. Instead, they turned out to be power-hungry sellouts.
The second is term limits in one house of Congress (probably the House of Representatives). That way, there will always be fresh new legislators in Washington. The reason I think it should be one house and not both is that we still need seasoned statesmen in our government. I think this would create a good blend of experience and new ideas.
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Davo
September 3rd, 2009
11:36 am
‘Obama eras’
Has his administration been in power that long as to be refered to as an ‘era’? Cop to the fact that W deserves the brunt of the blame for our miserable state of affairs and I’ll cut you some slack. We all know what to expect from the democrats…since when do we let the GOP off the hook for betraying their core principles (limited govt, personal responsibilty etc)
RP is a republican in name only and has said so himself. If there was a true conservative, constitutional party out there he would most likely be leading it. I would hope as a 30-something conservative you would be blogging about this aspect of politics rather than re-hashing tired, us vs them 2 party BS. There’s a market for that, Kyle…I’d like to see you embrace it.
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David Axelfraud
September 3rd, 2009
11:39 am
William, then maybe you should lay off the blogs and get a job.
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Davo
September 3rd, 2009
11:55 am
“…but that comment reeks of willful ignorance.”
Ah, no. I think it reeks of willful clarity. I won’t deny that there is much to be learned from other countries (that would be ignorant). My point comes from the fact that practically every other country in the world has it easy when governing the masses. Why? Because 99% of the people in Japan are…ethnically Japanese. Probably 90% of Germany is populated by…Germans (with the remainder being our WW2 occupation force). This country doesn’t have that luxury…we’re the melting pot. While it may be nice to think that everyone can sit back and sing kumbaya in unison, the fact is we’re fractured along many ethnic and societal lines and bringing them all under one roof is tough.
This guy makes this point better than I if you care to explore this further.
Creatures of Habit
by Jack Hunter on September 01, 2009
http://www.takimag.com/article/creatures_of_habit/
“Usually by accident of geography, ethnicity or both, people share cuisine, art, technology, architecture and gods particular to their little corner of the world….While we might find value in ourselves as individuals it can’t be underestimated how much self-worth we derive from being part of a larger human continuum.”
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jt
September 3rd, 2009
12:00 pm
Road Scholar
September 3rd, 2009
7:57 am
JT: So how would you assign judges to the Ga Supreme Court? You must pay for competency and experience.
The first thing that I would do would be to end the ridiculous requirement of a judge to be a lawyer.
A few states still allow normal, honest people to be judges.
Just because a person took the easy way out in college by studying law shouldn’t automatically qualify him for being a judge.
And through a lifetime carreer of proscecuting, how do you measure competency?
No matter how much the state bar tries to brainwash you, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know and memorize precedents and legal codes. 98% of lawyering is just knowing how to kiss judges arses and obeying their silly protocol.
Trust me, Joe the Plumber could and would do a better job. And be more honest.
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Hillbilly Deluxe
September 3rd, 2009
12:07 pm
The one thing Democratic and Republican office holders have in common is that they will do anything to see that current system that benefits incumbents stays in place. It’s been said that the Senate is the world’s most exclusive private club and I think you could expand that to the current Federal Government in general. Both sides will give lip service to change, always through a prism that benefits them, but the fact is they like things the way they are and will work to keep it the way it is. They’ll talk a little reform now and then when their feet are to the fire but that’s about it.
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jt
September 3rd, 2009
12:09 pm
Who is John Galt?
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Elephant Whip
September 3rd, 2009
12:10 pm
Re: Nahmias- one thing to cause optimism toward his ability to remain impartial is his refusal to retry Brian Nichols under the federal law against killing federal agents.
Re: “Legislate from the bench” language: I hope you do not mean he should value legislation over the Constitutions of Georgia and the United States. Review of legislation as it has been applied by law enforcement, agencies, and lower courts is a Supreme Court Justice’s role most of the time in the highest appellate court. If the law were not confusing (or the actions of state agents not questionable), then the Supreme Court of Georgia (or the US Supreme Court) would not take the case. The only time either political party calls it “legislating from the bench” is when the court finds that proper application of the law contradicts that party’s ideology.
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David Axelfraud
September 3rd, 2009
12:22 pm
Liberals are so nice. They are so nice that they bite fingers off of 65 year old health care opponents. HELLO NAZIS!
Finger bitten off during California health protest
AP
THOUSAND OAKS, Calif. – California authorities say a clash between opponents and supporters of health care reform ended with one man biting off another man’s finger.
Ventura County Sheriff’s Capt. Frank O’Hanlon says about 100 people demonstrating in favor of health care reforms rallied Wednesday night on a street corner. One protester walked across the street to confront about 25 counter-demonstrators.
O’Hanlon says the man got into an argument and fist fight, during which he bit off the left pinky of a 65-year-old man who opposed health care reform.
A hospital spokeswoman says the man lost half the finger, but doctors reattached it and he was sent home the same night.
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Stannie
September 3rd, 2009
1:20 pm
Incumbancy is the real problem. Term limits are the solution. Most Americans know this, but still vote based upon pols lies. Lets start the change today. Call your reps and tell them to get ready to leave office. Since they are not doing the countries business as we have been told!
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oldtimer
September 3rd, 2009
1:34 pm
I hope to God we see a turnaround in the near future.
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Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
September 3rd, 2009
2:13 pm
Well, I’m with the rest of the godly Conservatives here. I’m for term limits. Until the godly Republicans get in the majority again. Then I’ll argue about how important it is to keep people in office that know what’s going on and how things work.
Have a good p.m. everybody.
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@@
September 3rd, 2009
2:39 pm
Alright…so I linked to some nekkid leftists at Zombietime, Kyle. Is that why my comment is held up in moderation? Folks don’t have to look unless they want a good laugh.
They’re U.C. Berkeley folk.
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kwingfield
September 3rd, 2009
4:14 pm
Sorry, @@, but even laughably nekkid leftists don’t work for a family-friendly Web site. Feel free to re-post that comment without the links.
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JF McNamara
September 3rd, 2009
4:59 pm
“Certainly, it’s what tens of millions of voters thought they were getting when they elected Barack Obama last November. But the tea parties, the town-hall protests and the opinion polls suggest that Americans are getting less than they had “hoped” for.”
Kyle, I’m not sure this statement is true as the Obama administration hasn’t really undertaken their agenda. They put in the stimulus (with some pork but mostly tax cuts and need items) and banking fixes which helped salvage the economy. Obama really hasn’t done anything else as Healthcare reform is his first major issue.
I’d attribute the anger to the media and fringe Republicans along with the defeat in November. It allowed Hannity, Limbaugh, etc to really rally the listeners and incite the fringe of their party to become vocal. It’s also been helped that they don’t have to meet journalistic standards of integrity so they can use half-truths and misinformation to even make topic more inflammatory. It makes no sense for people who could’ve care less about politics two years ago to be so emotionally invested now unless that is what’s going on. For instance, people are so concerned about the deficit now, but Bush exploded the deficit and kept the war spending hidden and the silence was deafening.
I throw out the town hall results because its just the idiot fringes of both parties. The polls tell a story, but it mostly tells who is winning the propaganda war.
Finally, I don’t think people are that upset at the Obama agenda. In Georgia, it seems like it but that’s because its primarily Republicans and by nature it’ll be contrarian here. He still has a pretty good approval rating overall especially given the amount of propaganda that has been manufactured against him.
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Grady L. Cornish
September 3rd, 2009
5:48 pm
Perdue’s appointment of Nahmias raises questions
Sonny Perdue began his second term under a cloud of allegations pertaining to questionable land deals in Houston County, Florida, as well as a customized tax break for the Houston County transaction.
Formal complaints about his misuse of the Governor’s office were quickly dismissed by the Republican controlled General Assembly. The fact laden complaint was then submitted to the office of the U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Georgia and nothing has been heard of it since. That office was headed by David Nahmias.
Comingle Perdue’s steadfast refusal to answer lingering questions about his actions with his appointment of Nahmias to the state’s highest court with no prior judicial experience and questions are bound to come to mind.
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jconservative
September 3rd, 2009
7:28 pm
Stannie September 3rd, 2009 1:20 pm
“Incumbancy is the real problem. Term limits are the solution.”
I believe you are wrong. The solution is not term limits. The solution is NOT voting for Incumbents. And it would help if there were a true Conservative Party. Libertarian comes close, but not close enough (although they have certainly gotten a lot of votes from me).
To my mind, Conservative means Political Conservative. Social Conservatives, for example, are Political Liberals because they want the central government to “fix” a lot of problems (whether perceived or real). Political Conservatives, on the other hand, want the central government to keep hands off most everything.
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Eric
September 4th, 2009
5:58 am
American workers are getting less compensation and longer hours thanks to unrestrained corporate power. Congress has done little, if any, to protect workers (regardless of one’s view of health care, for example). I am allowed so little time off and work for such cheap wages ($8/hr.) just to survive. So, no, I don’t think my government cares one iota about me, nor do I care anymore about them. Total disconnect/distrust. Little wonder the cynicism!
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Michael H. Smith
September 4th, 2009
6:37 am
Jessica, what assurances do the people have that the NEW Republicans will be any different than the OLD Republicans?
The adage of putting lipstick on a pig does comes to mind, as many have too often seen a NEW label put on an OLD product which claims to be NEW and IMPROVED only to dismally provide less efficacy than previously obtained at a higher purchase price.
A fresh face on a rotting carcass does not a pleasant stench produce.
Unquestionably this country is a center-right or right of center nation via citizen self-proclamation, where 40% identify themselves as conservatives and 39% identifying themselves as centrists, clearly liberalism at only a mere 21% is out of keeping with the mainstream ideologies of the national heart and soul of America. At the moment, excuse the overuse of parlance, but the tail is wagging the dog!
In truth it would be a far easier task to reform a political party than to reform the entire body of politic in this country. Unfortunately time has come that “We the People” may well have to do exactly that risky and untenable, as some may rightly question it, the unthinkable thing.
In review of the present and past administrations far too much power has been centralized at the Federal level, even have powers been unduly conceded to executive branch meant to forever remain in the domain of the legislative branch, same said in regards to the judicial branch when law is legislated from the bench, all contrary to our founder’s foundation of governance as laid out in the simple though effective concept of Federalism: The checks and balances thereof have all but been unchecked and meant to serve an imbalance.
To correctly address the Constitutional misgivings that have evolved over time, even to arguably best approach the change of terms served in limiting the years of service of a Representative in the House the several States should call for a Constitutional Convention.
Do not take this as a personal attack or anything in any manner of speaking as an effort to demean you, Jessica. Quite to the contrary, you have only made me think and re-think my challenged positions that I’ve long held against the use of Constitutional Convention where I’ve resisted it in the times past knowing the risk involved that might lead to an undoing of the Union.
John Adams, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson never held to the beliefs of Lincoln and Eisenhower of an indestructible union, as they held it would likely not endure the span of their own lifetimes. Ben Franklin was asked upon exiting the Constitutional Convention of 1787, “Well, Doctor, what have we got: A republic or a monarchy?” With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded, “A republic, if you can keep it.”
“I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed
of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in
politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for
myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and
moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I
would not go there at all.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Francis
Hopkinson, 1789.
“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every
fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence
of a God; because, if there is one, he must more approve of the
homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1787.
“I hope that we have not labored in vain, and that our experiment
will still prove that men can be governed by reason.”
–Thomas Jefferson to George Mason, 1791.
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Maxwell Snark
September 4th, 2009
7:20 am
I think you’ve got a point, Mr. Wingfield, that perhaps people are tired of the brainlock of incumbents of both parties, which leads to wrong-headed “solutions” to problems here and elsewhere. Often, even when you get a “new” person in office, it’s someone who has spent years in ideological lockstep with the previous person.
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@@
September 4th, 2009
8:06 am
Feel free to re-post that comment without the links.
That wouldn’t be any fun, Kyle! It would require literary descriptions. You know what they say…
a picture’s worth a thousand words.
A THOUSAND WORDS?
J/K hope you enjoyed it at least.
(ISH) Insert smile here. I don’t do silly emoticons.
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Ga Values
September 4th, 2009
9:19 am
Which party stands for the voters? The Democrats are owned by the trial lawyers and the Republicans are owned by the Insurance Companies. Does anyone know a single voter who really wanted to vote for Saxby Chambliss but he was reelected. We need TERM LIMITS NOW.
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Joan
September 4th, 2009
11:38 am
We need not just lobby for term limits, but we also need to understand that an awful lot “conservatives” are fiscal conservatives and social libertarians. In fact, that may be the majority of the population. We need a new face, and a party receptive to that approach, rather than the all or nothing approach both of the instant parties take. As a conservative, I would love to see a new face, and a bright mind emerge who embraced fiscal responsibility, social live and let live, and was responsive to the populace. Right now Congress and the White House are populated by egomaniacs.
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Tootie
September 4th, 2009
12:23 pm
I’m enjoying reading these posts!!!!!! Catlady….@@ and Hillbilly Deluxe are very entertaining. You should name your dog one of those names.
-Tootie
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Ga Values
September 4th, 2009
1:16 pm
Joan
September 4th, 2009
11:38 am
Very well put, thanks
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Churchill's MOM
September 4th, 2009
1:19 pm
You are headed in the RIGHT direction but how about the copyright law?
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kwingfield
September 4th, 2009
1:30 pm
Churchill’s MOM: There’s a big difference between cutting and pasting an entire 800-word column from another publication without even crediting the author, and quoting sparingly from an article (using the term loosely here) while providing a link and credit. Do the latter, and you’ll be fine.
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Hillbilly Deluxe
September 4th, 2009
1:47 pm
I’d be in favor of term limits and perhaps a couple other things on the list but if you call a Constitutional Convention (assuming you’re sucessful), there’s no telling what kind of Pandora’s box you’d be opening. The potential for mischief and mayhem are great.
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Davo
September 4th, 2009
1:52 pm
#5 is a bit worrisome…if corporations are included it would be terrible. The rest sounds good to me.
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Davo
September 4th, 2009
1:57 pm
A Will Out
by Jack Hunter on September 04, 2009
http://www.takimag.com/article/a_will_out/
“If a liberal can be defined as someone who refuses to reconcile his utopian vision with reality, then there has never been anything particularly conservative about the neoconservatives. That the U.S. could somehow transform the Middle East if only we invested enough dollars and effort was a fairy tale the neoconservative Bush administration not only sold the American people, but Republican unity and identity depended on conservatives’ willingness to believe this fantasy.”
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jt
September 4th, 2009
2:55 pm
Hillbilly nails it with the “pandoras box”.
Don’t let a bunch of lawyer/politicians muddy the water.
The present constitution serves us fine IF we follow it.
Term Limits legislation would not be necessary IF we had an AUDIT at the end of each Representative’s “career”. Any conflict of interest or unethical gain would be forfeited and the rep would be fined.
The IRS routinely does this to ordinary Americans. Term limits might make you feel good, but oftentimes, politician/lawyers do more damage and steal more AFTER they are fired by the public.
(Think Dachsel,).
Ya caint legislate morality. Americans deserve who they vote in.
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Disgusted
September 4th, 2009
3:41 pm
In essence, then, we are to get rid of most of the Constitution as it exists and form a new nation based on untrammeled commercial and state power, with a federal government so weak it might as well not exist. Fifty little nations allied with a few thousand corporations, eh?
No thanks. I’ll keep what we have, warts and all. And this whole business of term limits is a bunch of hooey. You never hear conservatives calling for term limits when their party is in power. It’s strange how the cry for term limits goes out when the conservatives have lost their stranglehold on federal power.
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Wes
September 4th, 2009
5:24 pm
I love these ideas.
The Federal government represents 300+ million people with varying incomes ethnicities, and cultures. To assume that one government can provide laws that are equitable is laughable at best. Throw in the fact that the average rep has a district with 700,000 people in it suggests that the Federal government is fairly distanced from the people it supposedly represents. I feel much more safe with a weak government whose main responsibility is protecting individual rights than a strong government that is only concerned with 151 million of us.
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jm
September 4th, 2009
6:07 pm
One big problem with term limits is that it will invest far more power with unelected government officials, if for no other reason, they are the ones who know how everything works. I will give you a great example. When I was up in D.C., I had a good friend who worked as a contractor with NASA. Every couple of years, the contract would come up for bid. During his 15 or so years there, the contract changed hands four times. With each contract change, most of the senior managers would be replaced but most of the remaining staff members would be asked to stay. He worked essentially the same job during his tenure but he did it for four different employers. The same thing happens when new senators or members of congress get elected. They might bring in a few new faces but chances are, they recruit their staff from the people already there.
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Michael H. Smith
September 4th, 2009
8:23 pm
As I said previously calling for a Constitutional Convention is risky business; however, to proceed “as is” with the status quo is even more risky and far worse than unacceptable.
“New Faces” cannot correct inherent problems found in the Articles of the Constitution and in a couple of Constitutional Amendments that were written to address issues of a different time that no longer exist today which has only created other current dilemmas.
I was glad to see Randy Barnett went after the commerce clause: One of the most Federally abused Articles of Confederation and detrimental to the Rights of the States. Though he should not have stopped with restraining the Congress alone. He should have included the other two branches of government, particularly the Supreme Court.
I do disagree with the thoughts that the majority in this country are fiscal conservatives but social liberals: Only the vast minority of 41 states happen to agree with me.
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Davo
September 4th, 2009
8:43 pm
“The Republican Study Committee bases its proposal to extend “access to [health] coverage to all Americans” on tax credits. This includes “an advanceable, refundable tax credit (on a sliding scale) for low-income individuals to purchase coverage.”
Still don’t like it…sounds like a ‘meet you in the middle’ proposition that does nothing to stop the advance of UHC…just stop-gap til the 2010 election is past.
Oh well, enough is enough for this week….as Cynthia Tucker reminds us today that socialists have brought us an extra day day of solace, we might as well begin to enjoy it and set this aside for next week.
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Michael H. Smith
September 4th, 2009
9:16 pm
I have a big problem with HR 3400 as proposed by Rep. Tom Price.
SEC. 221. EXPANSION OF ACCESS AND CHOICE THROUGH INDIVIDUAL MEMBERSHIP ASSOCIATIONS (IMAS).
`SEC. 3101. DEFINITION OF INDIVIDUAL MEMBERSHIP ASSOCIATION (IMA).
`(a) In General- For purposes of this title, the terms `individual membership association’ and `IMA’ mean a legal entity that meets the following requirements:
`(1) ORGANIZATION- The IMA is an organization operated under the direction of an association (as defined in section 3104(1)).
SEC. 3104. DEFINITIONS.
`For purposes of this title:
`(1) ASSOCIATION- The term `association’ means, with respect to health insurance coverage offered in a State, an association which–
`(A) has been actively in existence for at least 5 years;
This is far to constraining and restrictive to make insurance portable from job to job — or to joblessness, as the case may be, Kyle. The only way portability can be guaranteed is if the “individual” not business or government or only the existing non-consumer owned, ran and administered cooperatives within a state controls healthcare.
No way will I support HR 3400 in its current form without the inclusion of and the expansion of the ability to establish or create new mutual insuring consumer owned, ran and administered healthcare cooperatives within any state.
My suggestion Rep. Price is get out of bed with business and the corporations sir, it is what many conservatives hate about Republicans and the Republican Party presently – yours truly included. This country was not meant to serve government, business, corporations or political opportunists. It was meant and should return in sole meaning to serving entirely the utmost liberty of the “individual U.S. citizen”.
I will remain hopeful of what the gang of six in the Senate can produce in the way of mutual insuring consumer owned, ran and administered healthcare cooperatives without any hidden Public single payer Option Trojan Horse attached under the assigned the name of “Trigger”.
No government owned healthcare, no business owned healthcare. Every individual citizen of this country should own and control their healthcare entirely.
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Max
September 4th, 2009
9:26 pm
Hmmm…. The byline says your name is Kyle but I’m pretty sure it’s really “Pot”. I have a someone here you need to meet – goes by name “Kettle”…
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Art at Large
September 4th, 2009
9:39 pm
Ah, yes. More of the same when it comes to for-profit healthcare insurance.
Giving Tax Credits once a year is supposed to magically pay 12 premiums a year? The sick, the poor and the unemployed must make these tax savings (or refund) last all that time, in the face of continued unemployment, disability, or poverty? This solution lacks the month-to-month solution these people will need…saving them money in April will not do them any good in October when they are still in dire straits. Even if the Tax Credit took the form of a refund, again the problem remains…a once-a-year stipend will not last. Disability is a year-round problem, not one that comes and goes every April.
The core of your “solution” seems to be the typical Republican “free-market forces” argument, stating that additional competition between existing insurance companies will force them to be more responsive and responsible. And yet, this is the same form of competition that has led to 40,000,000+ uninsured, and a United Healthcare CEO who makes $102,000 per hour.
A public option is the only true way to get behind the wall of crazy money and heartlessness that now rules the system. I fail to see how merely adding to the number of customers available to insurance companies will have any effect on their practices. Adding a public option will result in TRUE competition for those companies, who then really would have to re-think their profit-versus-treatment attitudes. Maybe then, breast-cancer patients would not be denied coverage for not informing the insurance company that they went to a dermatologist 18 years ago for acne treatments. Maybe then, children who need special bone-shaping helmets would not have treatment denied on the grounds that the helmet is “cosmetic in nature” (again, United Healthcare).
AND WHERE IS THE ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE VARIOUS SHILLS OF THEIR ILK HAVE BEEN MISLEADING THE PUBLIC WITH “DEATH PANELS” AND EUTHANASIA FOR THE ELDERLY AND “RATIONING” AND FORCED ENROLLMENT, AND THE REST OF THE LIES?
No, not a word about the dis-information campaign that has led to violent town-hall meetings, armed citizens in the streets talking about “killing tyrants”, the politics of US VERSUS THEM which pits citizens against each other, the” SOCIALIST” or” NAZI” rantings of the misled, the fearful, the ignorant, and the selfish or the fact that insurance companies are willing to spend millions of dollars to fight reform every step of the way.
No, not a word about the Republican “Party of NO” who offer the same worn-out tax-credit idea which will change nothing; not a word about their political agenda of “Obama must fail at all costs”; not a word about the corruption inherent in insurance-company donations to politicians; not a word about how the U.S. is ranked #37 in world healthcare despite spending more than anyone else; not a word about how we pay the world’s highest prices for prescription drugs available for a fraction of our cost, overseas. Not a word about how George Bush forbad the government from negotiating the cost of medicines for Medicare and Medicaid. Not a word about people like John McCain claiming that our healthcare system is “the best in the world” and in no need of fixing (although it is true that McCain’s healthcare DOES NOT need fixing).
Instead, you again use the Republican tactic of crying “WE ARE VICTIMS” while ignoring the facts; the Republicans had 12 years to do something about healthcare, and what they chose to do was to enrich the rich, allow the poor to suffer and die, accept millions in donations from insurance companies, and let the system become what it is today.
I’m sorry to say (but not sorry for you), but the meager sops you present as a panacea are just more of the same corrupt, selfish, free-market-faith heartlessness that has landed our country in this mess in the first place.
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San Francisco perspective
September 4th, 2009
9:55 pm
The problem, Kyle, is that an insurance system designed primarily for profit has incentive to deny coverage, design loopholes, exclude the needy, etc. That is the very logic of a private system. Why shovel tax-money into that via “credits” ? Two answers: 1) the power of the organized interests in that industry and 2) a mindless ideology that refuses to accept that profit motives might not be what you want at the core of a health-care system. If you really believe that a public option is a disaster, then please, please have your Republican friends introduce a bill to privative Medicare. But that would not be “pragmatic” would it, since people actually like public systems once they are in place………..
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Chris Salzmann
September 5th, 2009
1:22 am
Kyle,
I’m happy to see that you are no longer citing the Lewin Group in your opposition to Health Insurance Reform. You did that last time you came out against any kind of single payer system. BTW, the Lewin Group, as I’m sure you already know, is owned by United Health, a health insurance company.
That said, tax credits are a sham because how do you expect people who are living in poverty or are unemployed to pay with tax credits for an extended period of time? A for profit health insurance system, implies that the system has to be profitable. That profit is always at the expense of the consumer to the benefit of shareholders. In this case, the consumer is the insured who gets stuck with high premiums, denied care for “pre-existing” conditions, and having rates raised arbitrarily. That’s how it works if you are self insured. Self insurance health policies are a cash cow for insurance companies. I know because I deal with them all the time. I’m, among other things, insurance licensed which includes a health insurance license.
In fact, we spend almost $7,000 per capita already on Health Care in this country with minimal return. That’s more than any other industrialized nation. Twice more than France, the UK, Germany or Canada. Where’s all that extra money going? We excel in emergency care but fail miserably at preventive care. About 20,000 people die in this country annually for lack of health care insurance and over 60% of personal bankruptcies are related to medical costs. Of those folks, 70% have some kind of health insurance but fall through the cracks devised by these companies.
We need to have far tougher regulations on health care insurance. There should be mandates which allow pre-existing conditions and subsidies and cost caps for those who cannot afford to pay for health insurance. There should be a government option that pays a bare minimum coverage but allows pre-existing conditions and which requires people below a certain level of income to enroll in it. Once you cross to a higher income level, you can leave and go to a private insurance company which can provide more bells and whistles (value added policies). You call this socialized medicine but there is nothing socialized about it. Germany, which requires universal coverage and has a government option, has over 200 private health insurance companies which are thriving and profitable. I’m very familiar with that system because I have lived there and have family over there.
BTW, SF perspective is correct. If you are so against a single payer option of any kind,under any circumstances, then tell your Republican friends in politics to come out and call for the abolishing of Medicare because that’s exactly what Medicare is. You cannot oppose any kind of public option on one hand yet mouth servile platitudes about keeping Medicare. That’s a double standard by any standard.
We need an educated debate on options, without the lies and misinformation. Calling something “socialized” medicine or that someone’s encouraging anyone to kill grandma doesn’t help in finding solutions. This plays into the hands of health insurance companies who would rather have no reforms at all. In fact, they’ve enlisted 50,000 of their employees to actively campaign against it.
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Brit
September 5th, 2009
3:50 am
The author states in ideological fashion that “Ideology is all that’s left”, implying that the pragmatic necessity of turning the abysmal and embarrassing status of health care of the world’s richest nation into a decent system is just a closed set of belief and not practical!?
I am a USA citizen who has been teaching in New Zealand for 14 years. NZ like EVERY other developed country has a public (single payer) health care system combined with affordable private health options – well to the left of what Obama is considering. Like nearly every other developed country, the major indicators of health care such as life expectancy and infant mortality rates are better than the US – even though the per capital wealth here is 2/3 that of the USA. No one pays more than a few dollars for prescriptions. Rationing exists for those without private insurance, but it is less than de facto rationing in the USA for the underinsured, uninsured and those dropped by the insurance industry.
No insurance forms are needed. Doctors make very good wages. Taxes are low compared to most countries (even the USA when comparing taxes other than Federal taxes). No death panels. Certainly no Castro-like secret police (or Bush style NSA). The government is far less intrusive than in the USA with objectively a far more vital and free democracy.
Indeed, in most of the civilized world, public health care is considered a human right…whether from the left, right or centre. It is no more “inefficient” than the “socialized” military, police and fire departments, libraries or highway departments. Undeniably, without issuance or pharmaceutical interference single payer systems are far more efficient. As in all such countries polls show that most prefer this system over a US privatized system. For Canada’s POV see: http://www.thestar.com/living/article/679824
Who can, with honesty, argue against such systems whose health indicators are far superior to that in the USA?
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Trudy
September 5th, 2009
6:56 am
The government is responsible for protecting its citizens. Over 15,000 US citizens die each year because they cannot afford care. That’s five times the number of people who died on 9/11. The GOP wants people to suffer and die.
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Tom
September 5th, 2009
7:16 am
“One is just how angry Americans are about our nation’s increasing fiscal mismanagement.” It is amazing how you can spin preventing a new Great Depression into ‘increasing fiscal mismanagement.’ Mismanagement is what sent the financial system into a nose dive last year. But management this year is what has stopped a complete collapse.
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Gordon
September 5th, 2009
7:32 am
At least on this blog there is some intelligent conversation about the real issue…well, except for Tom at 7:16.
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Gordon
September 5th, 2009
7:32 am
…and Trudy just before him. “The GOP wants people to die.” Good grief.
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Gordon
September 5th, 2009
7:57 am
Brit, good post. My concern about H.R. 3200 is that is makes it very difficult for private insurance to survive. Private insurers cannot compete with a government plan that does not have to be fiscally responsible. They have been set up to fail. You call this plan something to the right of what is in New Zealand? Medicare and Medicaid, in their current form, are not sustainable. I don’t take Obama seriously on this issue because he simply is not being forthcoming with what it is going to cost, and includes absolutely nothing on tort reform. If he would get serious, maybe more people would get serious about him. The two choices don’t have to be do nothing, or swallow the crap sandwich that is H.R. 3200.
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Gordon
September 5th, 2009
8:03 am
San Francisco Perspective,
People love public medical care because, in the words of George Will, they get 2009 medicine at 1960 prices. Which is why government run health care is absolutely unsustainable. Medicare and Medicare have tens of trillions in unfunded liabilities. What are you going to tell people on public plans when the government simply cannot pay it’s bills?
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Michael H. Smith
September 5th, 2009
8:24 am
We need an educated debate on options, without the lies and misinformation.
Didn’t someone already point out the pot and kettle? Thanks for that advanced notice.
That’s how it works if you are self insured.Self insurance health policies are a cash cow for insurance companies.
Really now, it doesn’t work that way for mutual insuring non-profit consumer owned, ran and administered healthcare cooperatives.
Amazing how the self-proclaimed so-called educated debaters NEVER talk about the greedy pharmaceutical industry which are far more profitable than the insurance industry. Funny, they NEVER talk about the greedy trial lawyers. Hilarious is their FAILURE to mention medical device manufactures ranking in the big bucks.
Not so amazing, funny or hilarious is how the self-proclaimed so-called educated debaters NEVER acknowledge the trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities that the present SOCIALIST BIG GOVERNMENT healthcare programs face?
NEVER a mention of doctors refusing to take on Medicaid patients because these doctors receive less than their full fee?
But when Medicaid patients seek care, they often find themselves locked out of the medical system. In a 2006 report from the Center for Studying Health System Change, a nonprofit research group based in Washington, nearly half of all doctors polled said they had stopped accepting or limited the number of new Medicaid patients.
That’s because many Medicaid programs, straining under surging costs, are balancing their budgets by freezing or reducing payments to doctors. That in turn is driving many doctors, particularly specialists, out of the program.
And these self-proclaimed so-called educated debaters have the gall to suggest yet another SOCIALIST BIG GOVERNMENT healthcare program?
To all those who glory in how great other countries are doing on healthcare you have your PUBLIC OPTION already, all you need do is start moving the two good ones, left and right, you have standing on the ground to reach your grand SOCIALIST’S utopia.
The Swiss have undoubtedly a very good but SOCIALIZED healthcare system (probably the best in Europe) including private insurers but they all pay more than a few dollars with income taxes as high as 50%.
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One Voice
September 5th, 2009
8:55 am
What? An article by Bubba Wingfield that’s not about how a “wave” of 11 misguided teenagers just joined the Georgia Young Republicans?
Reforming health care is not a political issue; it’s a moral one. No civilized country should deny anyone health care because they’re too poor to be able to afford to pay insurance companies. And no health insurance companies should be for-profit entities. I can’t believe that Republicans have to be convinced that it’s immoral to make a profit off of other people’s suffering. And most of them call themselves Christians (which may explain their inability to use reason and logic).
All for-profit health insurance should go out of business. When the motive is profit, the strategy, inevitably, is to deny as many claims as possible and to charge people as much as possible for as few services as possible. Our current system already does this and does so with increasingly regularity. It is simply unethical and barbaric. Americans pay the most for health care of any citizens in the world, but we’re not even in the top 35 in terms of quality of care, all while health insurance companies’ profits go up, the percentage of insured Americans goes down, and health insurance CEOs and executives rake in literally multimillions a year.
And the barbarism has been prominently on display by the right. These are people who shout down and insult handicapped citizens at town halls. Senator Tom Coburn suggested that a woman whose husband had a brain injury should resort to begging to cover his medical care (as if begging her neighbors would produce the tens of thousands of dollars necessary for his care). Another lady who was describing her medical condition was taunted and lectured by NRC Chair Michael Steele and accused of being dishonest in order to make good television. All this while their base believes and spreads absurd factual inaccuracies that originated from health care lobbyists.
The bottom line is that this is a profound moral issue for our civilization. All citizens should have health care. No health insurers should be run for a profit. This can be done in a fiscally responsible way and has been done for veterans through the VA and for seniors through medicare. Anything less and our country and its citizens will continue to live in a nation defined by 6th century barbarism where only the lives of the wealthy will be worth saving. Death panels? We already have them and they’re the executives who choose to let people die in order to fatten their paychecks.
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Billy Bob
September 5th, 2009
9:37 am
I’m always amused to hear liberals like ‘San Francisco’ who decry ‘The Profit Motive’ in healthcare inusrance as an incentive for companies to deny coverage. Let me get this right – the incentive to make MORE money from additional customers means an insurance company is bound to provide poor service to it’s current customers.
Got that.
So, companies like The Coca-Cola Company and Pepsi have an incentive to fill only every can of soda they manufacture only half-full since their SOLE incentive is to cut costs. Right?
Wrong.
Both companies would love to have ‘San Francisco’s’ management skills if they want to drive their stock price into the gutter. Likewise, a health insurance company would only want to arbitrarily pay out a claim on every other client in order to attract throngs of new, premium-paying customers. Right? Hardly.
Life insurance and Property & Casualty insurance companies have operated profitably for centuries because they provide high quality AND low cost insurance. Insurance against low probability, highly expensive events. There is no reason why health insurance companies can’t do the same for Americans but we must get away from health insurance covering common health insurance events like broken bones, cuts and even minor surgeries. Let health savings accounts take care of that area.
We can find market-based solutions to healthcare but, like our auto, home and other insurance, we must choose the low probability, high cost events that we want to cover and then PAY for our own costs to cover everyday health issues. Let’s hope our legislators see this as the sustainable solution.
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Michael H. Smith
September 5th, 2009
9:41 am
All for-profit trial lawyers should go out of business. All for-profit pharmaceutical companies should go out of business. All for-profit medical device makers should go out of business. Only the government and its’ bureaucrats (unionized of course) should profit from healthcare, yada, yada, yada.
Isn’t socialist – communism a beautiful thing? So sad the former unethical and barbaric U.S.S.R. had to self-implode due to a lack of for-profit non-state owned, ran and administered enterprise.
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One Voice
September 5th, 2009
10:11 am
Billy Bob,
So you think profiting from selling Coca Cola is the same thing as profiting from people purchasing health insurance that will keep them and their families alive? This is the type of immoral thinking that typifies the right.
Michael,
Unfortunately, our country is filled with Neanderthals like yourself who don’t understand the difference between communism and socialism and probably couldn’t define either without looking them up on Wikipedia.
You decry government bureaucrats without realizing that the bureaucrats who run the VA and Medicare make tens of thousands of dollars, not tens of millions like the executives at health insurance companies, which is exactly why the VA and Medicare can deliver superior care at much lower costs. The VA system is the most cost effective and highest quality system in the world and would only benefit and become more efficient if more people could buy into it, which is precisely what veterans advocate- expanding the VA system to allow coverage for extended families. This larger pool of customers would lower overall costs and more money could be directed to actual treatment and prevention, which would lower costs even further. There is no reason this program could not be expanded to the general public, which would only magnify all of these benefits.
But reasoning with you is a fruitless endeavor because you’re wrapped up in catch phrases like ’socialism’ (so scary). You might want to take a few history classes before you begin pointing to the economic collapse of the USSR as having any parallel with our heath care reform (and you may want to take some English courses to learn how to conjugate verbs and form contractions).
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booger
September 5th, 2009
10:38 am
I think the problems are simple.
1- WE CAN’T AFFORD THIS. Medicare will go broke in as soon as eight years, with social security close behind. We have no plan for bailing these programs out, yet we are ready to implement a giant new government entitlement.
2-depending on the poll, 70% to 85% of Americans are happy with their health care arrangements. This would indicate a fix is needed, not reform of the entire system. If the dems. would limit the scope of their “FIX” to cost control and accessibility, they may get some traction.
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One Voice
September 5th, 2009
11:01 am
Yes, the problems are simple:
1- We can’t afford NOT to reform health care. The tremendous costs of health care and the poor return on that investment are crippling the nation’s economy and have contributed to the recession. By eliminating the trillions of unnecessary dollars that go to the middle man (health insurers and their administrative fees, huge salaries, bonuses, etc.), citizens of this country will save vast amounts of money which can then be spent to stimulate other aspects of the economy.
2- More than 70% of people support health care reform, and a solid majority favor a public option (while most of the rest are not well educated enough to make a sound decision- see Michael and Billy Bob above).
3- No civilized nation in the modern world should go without universal health care. The wealthiest nation in the world should be able to provide access to health care for all its citizens, just like other less wealthy (but better educated and more civilized) nations already do.
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French leftist management
September 5th, 2009
11:03 am
I was just coming to the scene of this little dust-up to rip Mr. Kyle a new .. you know what … but I see a number of previous commenters have beaten me to the punch, esp SF perspective and Art at Large. Nice job, people. Well done.
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Stan
September 5th, 2009
11:35 am
One Voice for WORLD LEADER. It knows everything. It’s highly intellectual. It speaks for all of us because it knows more than any of us. It’s a moral imperative that One Voice make all of our personal choices for us. And correct our homework.
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One Voice
September 5th, 2009
12:39 pm
Stan,
Did you have anything substantive to add?
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One Voice
September 5th, 2009
12:39 pm
I didn’t think so.
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Rick
September 5th, 2009
1:23 pm
If the Republicans had been willing to make a few need changes when they were in power, even a few, then this whole issue would be off the table. Most Republicans are not willing to compromise at all, so it is an all-or-nothing situation. Either the government has control or we keep the system that we have. Most people think that the system must be changed to survive. However, it seems that only Dems. have come up with ideas.
Republicans have really done a poor job over the past decade in this area. In fact, they have done nothing but shoot down ideas that others have developed. This is not leadership. This is lazy politics at best and corruption at its worst. Insurance companies have been pulling the strings in this nation for far too long.
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booger
September 5th, 2009
1:48 pm
One Voice,
1-…..Can’t afford not to is wearing a little thin. And trillions of dollars going to Insurance companies? Think this number is a teeny bit high. Also, I have no problem with Obama taking the $500 billion in waste out of medicare and medicaid right now. This would go a long way toward controling costs.
2-…..Vast majority prefer a public option. I don’t think so.
3- I did not say there should not be access for everyone. I said this was one of the problems which need to be fixed. You don’t have to reform a whole system to fix a problem.
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Michael Szedon a.k.a. Art at Large
September 5th, 2009
2:14 pm
Hey, Gordon….
Tom, at 7:16 is right. Mr. Wingfield accuses President Obama of “fiscal mismanagement”, but all that spending was necessary to ward off another Depression. When the gov’t is the only one with money, they need to spend on programs or have the economy shrivel and die. The Republican plan of freezing all gov’t spending except for the military, medicare, etc. would have been like bleeding a patient in order to cure fatigue.
Trudy has a point, too. The Republicans don’t give a sh*t how many die from lack of affordable health care. The Republicans were getting their massive donations from the insurance companies, business was booming, and the Republicans were getting theirs, so screw you, jack. Not even the actual physicians who were elected to high office could be bothered to think about the suffering and dying of the poor, the afflicted, and the uninsured.
As for the “unsustainability” of medicare and medicaid, didn’t our former chimp-in-chief George Bush come to office (well, had the office handed to him by SCOTUS justices picked by his daddy) with a budget surplus? And didn’t he blow through that surplus in no time, and then rack up massive debt, and then oversee the collapse of our financial system due to lack of oversight, regulation, and the fostering of pure greed?
Bush did the same thing when he became governor of Texas. He took a budget surplus and turned it into record-level debt, and then he left office early, ensuring that he didn’t have to live with his own irresponsibility.
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San Francisco perspective
September 5th, 2009
3:03 pm
Billy Bob, the incentive is not necessarily “more” customers, it is “better” customers. This is why Americans with pre-existing conditions are often left without insurance. Further, because the market is so consolidated and the bargaining power between the parties is so lopsided, companies can and do profit from denying a variety of services.
And to the free-market advocates here, you should all be advocating for a single-payer system. An employment-based private health care system is really quite bad for business. A single-payer system would free workers to take new jobs, go back to school, and start new businesses without worrying about their health care disappearing. There is a reason why no other industrialized democracy is rushing to create an American-style health system……………
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Kamchak
September 5th, 2009
4:41 pm
Let me get this right – the incentive to make MORE money from all customers means an insurance company is bound to provide poor service to all customers
FYT
Every penny of profits, is a penny of health care denied.
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catlady
September 5th, 2009
5:09 pm
Ideologues? Yeah, I hope so. We need SOMEONE who will think of what SHOULD be–what health care should look like–and then find ways to make it a reality. Better an ideologue than a demagogue!
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Dave
September 5th, 2009
5:48 pm
I’ve read a few of your pieces. You or your editors need to tighten up your writing. You seem to start with an idea and jump there, without regard for logical progression.
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DannyX
September 5th, 2009
5:56 pm
I think any good Republican should be asking “What would Jesus do?”
Any good Republican knows Jesus would be appalled by the liberal “health care for all!” garbage. Heck if Jesus were to come back now He’d make a killing. Since obviously Jesus would represent Republican family values, I’m sure Jesus would want to get in on the action. I say of course Jesus is a Republican. Duh.
Forget the free miracle bs. More like free market. I’d say Jesus would end up pretty damn rich. Think of the pay days He could bring in.
Jesus’ “Christian Angels Saving Humans,” or CASH for short, would be a hit on the stock market.
CASH price guide:
Return sight to blind…$100,000.00
Return legs to cripple….$100,000.00
Wedding wine service…$10,000.00
Fish for a 1000….$10,000.00
And of course the Main Course….
Bringing the dead back to life….$12,000,000.00
Gotta love them values. Family values that is.
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electrician
September 5th, 2009
6:15 pm
Dannyx..you know a lot of dems are christians too…watch your mouth
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Southern Man by God
September 5th, 2009
7:14 pm
It is God’s will that we deny healthcare to immigrants, he only truly loves white southerners. Don’t let Obama indoctrinate your offspring with the word of the devil.
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In the Middle
September 5th, 2009
9:36 pm
You want real competition that will bring health care costs back to reality?
Have health insurance act like all other kinds of insurance, only to be used in catastrophic and unforseen circumstances. Give all this money to the people, and REQUIRE them to maintain HSAs (along with their own required contributions). They use the money for routine medical care, and insurance for stuff like accidents and serious illnesses. For other, more elective stuff, use credit. Wanna bet people would start shopping around and prices would come down? Nobody shops around right now. Why would they? Someone else is paying for it (the insurance company).
The biggest problem in our system is the “employer-based comprehensive health insurance” infrastructure that our tax dollars currently incentivize. It’s broken, bloated, and one of the big reason why health care is so expensive. Scrap it and start over!
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Michael H. Smith
September 5th, 2009
10:29 pm
One Voice
September 5th, 2009
10:11 am
I really like the personal attack, it so reveals the inner two year old within you.
1 – You idiot, government is the ultimate worst MIDDLE MAN imaginable.
2- Knucklehead, the vast majority do not prefer the public option and that same vast majority knows what it dislikes about the inherent problems of healthcare, which is…
3- Lamo, systemic and that means reforming the health insurance industry alone will not correct what is wrong or begin to address all the other parts involved in the healthcare industry that drive-up the cost that has priced healthcare out of reach the average U.S. Citizen.
Now junior, if you have something intelligent to say I’m waiting. – Tough I’ll admit it’s just a poor use of my time. Otherwise, if your intention is to get into a slap down match-up you silly little egotistical humanoid, be forewarned pantie-waste that you are dealing with a crusty old ’struction guy that can make a salty old sailor’s mama cry.
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Michael H. Smith
September 5th, 2009
10:45 pm
In the Middle
September 5th, 2009
9:36 pm
That is pretty much what would happen under what I support but what I want would give alot more to the healthcare consumer via mutual insuring non-profit consumer owned, ran and administered healthcare cooperatives: Which under Waxman-Dingle HR 3200 or under Price HR 3400 cannot happen. However, it is under consideration by the “gang of six” in the Senate finance committee.
A model of this can be examined at the link below. (Of course, even this model can be improved, without destroying the private sector healthcare industry or proxy of hidden government owning running and controlling them a.k.a. No Trojan Horse)
http://www.ghc.org/
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Unknown
September 5th, 2009
11:49 pm
70% want univeral healthcare? Who are you asking? I have insurance. If the government option comes available what would keep my job from dumping me off on it? It certaintly would be cheaper for them.
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Churchill's MOM
September 6th, 2009
8:21 am
As written by Kyle Wingfield in the 9/6/09 AJC
http://blogs.ajc.com/kyle-wingfield/2009/09/04/democrats-are-the-ideologues-on-health-care/
“The RSC plan also calls for, among other things, covering pre-existing conditions and making insurance portable from job to job — or to joblessness, as the case may be. It would foster competition, making life less comfortable for insurers that are fat and unresponsive.”
Is the real rub, If you look at the Bush Drug Medicare program, we are transfering taxpayer money to the drug companies because the drug program war written by the drug companies for the drug companies. Last week Saxby Chambliss at his invitation only speech in Augusta, when asked about what changes he would make to insurance coverages, dodged. None of our Republicans Congressmen are talking about controls over insurance companies. I am not happy with the House’s 5 insurance plans but they at least have a plan, please provide us with a link to the Republican plan to regulate insurance companies.
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Saul Good
September 6th, 2009
8:25 am
Tax credits? Amazes me when the republicans (many of which now falsely call themselves Libertarians in these post Bush-Era days) keep going to their same failed policies. Please let me know when the Bush tax breaks are going to kick in. Been years now.
8 long years on power, 6 with total control. Please present to me the health care plan that the republicans presented during that time. You won’t find any. Though what you WILl find is that we added millions more to the uninsured ranks, as well as premiums that have doubled. Add to that the profit margins that increased for the insurance companies during that time. Did they “trickle down” their massive profits and cut rates? Nope, they “rationed” even more to become MORE profitable.
Please do sleak more about
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Saul Good
September 6th, 2009
8:29 am
oop! hit send by accident!
Please do speak more about the privatezation of Social Security (where people were going to be able to invest their own portions in the stock market). If we had gone that route (which Bush and many of the other neo-cons pushed for over and over), there would be MILLIONS right now with worthless accounts and many old people standing inline at soup kitchens just to get a slice of bread.
Republicans (and phony libertarians): always making noise, yet never coming up with a better idea or one that works…but when they had control… they literally train wrecked not only our own nation, but most around the world as well.
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hryder
September 6th, 2009
9:11 am
By definitiion, Something is not health insurance if the identical premium is paid by all and those with pre-existing conditions must be accepted for coverage at the same personal cost. Then, when one is unable to pay for the insurance, for whatever reason except not desiring to pay someone else’s bills, taxpayers foot the bill. Yes, this is financing health care but it is not health insurance. This does tno even consider coverage, deductables, etc..
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Libtards Blow
September 6th, 2009
9:51 am
The fact that the Democrats won’t allow folks opt out of their health care scheme should tell you something–they’re more interested in controlling you than in making sure you get the kind of health care you want.
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One Voice
September 6th, 2009
9:56 am
Michelle Smith @ 10:29
Thank you. That post served to substantiate my assertion that you’re an uneducated Neanderthal. You proved that point much better than I could have.
So you go from using silly catch phrases like socialism (which you think will somehow shock and scare people) to complaining about the government being a middle man. You may want to try to include some substance instead of repeating every cliche you’ve heard from the other uneducated hicks on your construction site. There’s a reason you get paid to stand around with a shovel- your intellect is not advanced enough for someone to pay you for using your mind. And please don’t scare me with the threat of cursing at me over the internet (snicker).
I already explained at 10:11 why the VA and Medicare work and why that model would work on a larger scale. You have done nothing to rebut that assertion. The majority of the country, the 53% who voted for Obama, support a public option. Just because elderly high school dropouts like yourself have been disrupting town hall meetings does not mean you are not in a small minority. If three people yell really loudly it doesn’t magically transform them into 30 million people. It’s still just three people yelling loudly.
Finally, reform will indeed fix problems. That is kind of the definition of reform, not to mention its very purpose. But I wouldn’t expect a construction worker to be able to process the intricacies of the issue. Stick to standing around watching someone else hammering nails. And if you would like to make a point, however daft, you might want to learn to write complete sentences. That’s why you shouldn’t have dropped out of 8th grade.
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Gordon
September 6th, 2009
10:01 am
Michael/Art,
I don’t know where to start with your diatribe full of left wing talking points. You are simply full of misinformed hate. There is always people on both sides who offer opinions, and reasonable people can disagree. Then there are people like you who simply take up space on a blog.
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Michael H. Smith
September 6th, 2009
10:23 am
I don’t know where to start with your diatribe
Then why did you begin Gordon?
You are simply full of misinformed hate.
According to you Gordon.
There is always people on both sides who offer opinions, and reasonable people can disagree.
Never said or even thought anything differently Gordon. However, if insults are considered fair game, then I can’t play in that ballpark too?
Then there are people like you who simply take up space on a blog.
Then again there are people like you Gordon that make claims that other people’s opinions simply take up space on a blog. Make use of what occupies the space between your ears Gordon and do delight me with posting your diatribe or “thoughtful reasonable opinion” as you might choose to call it on what you see as my left-wing talking points?
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One Voice
September 6th, 2009
11:21 am
Booger,
1- If you’re tired of listening to the reasoning for the need for reform, then that may say something about you, but it says nothing about the validity of the argument. The VA (government run health care) provides the highest quality care in the world and does so at far less cost than private insurance. We don’t need to wonder about theoretical circumstances; we have an actual working model in the VA. If it is expanded to the general public the costs will decrease further. That’s one of the most basic rules of economics- higher quantities translate to lower costs- and it’s why Walmart has become the biggest company and biggest employer in the country. But the VA (govt run health care) also provides the best quality as well. It is simply the best and most cost effective option by far.
2- Just because you don’t want to believe that the majority of Americans support reform doesn’t mean it’s not true. About 70% support reform and about 55% support some sort of public option, and 55% has always been considered a solid majority (I used the word “solid”, not “vast”) in political terms.You seem to believe that facts conform to your opinion, when in reality your opinion may or may not conform to facts (in your case not), depending on the facts.
3- I will argue that the current private system is so corrupt and inefficient that it needs a complete overhaul. While we disagree on this, I believe if we get a strong bill passed, years from now it will prove to have been a great turning point in our history.
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One Voice
September 6th, 2009
11:29 am
Michelle Smith @ 10:23,
You’re really not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you? (Although you are most certainly a tool.) You didn’t realize that Gordon @ 10:01 was not addressing you, but missed that I was addressing you at 9:56. And you attacked Gordon, who is actually a right wingnut like yourself. Very funny.
You are a perfect example of why the Founding Fathers created a republic and not a democracy (I bet that’s news to you). The ignorant masses would run this country into the ground (see the last 8 years).
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Libtards Blow
September 6th, 2009
11:35 am
Michael H. Smith, you want the government to take care of you, don’t you? Be a big boy and pay your own bills. If you and the other Obama acoloytes had been doing this for the last couple of years, we wouldn’t have had this mortgage meltdown.
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Azazel
September 6th, 2009
11:53 am
The government should assure that all citizens have access to high quality health care to support good health status. The government should not be a health care provider.
How is it ideological to offer a public health care plan as a choice for coverage?
How is it that health status and well being are considered more preferably as corporate commodities, rather than an individual right?
How much is your life worth to your health insurer with the singular goal of profit maximization?
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Michael H. Smith
September 6th, 2009
12:05 pm
Libtards Blow
September 6th, 2009
11:35 am
You are out of your mind if you think I want government control of healthcare. Whatever gave you that impression is certainly wrong!
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Swing Vote
September 6th, 2009
12:13 pm
I want a President that wakes up everyday and asks himself two questions: How can I keep America safe (yes, we’re still in a war)? and What can I do to help the economy (hello, we’re in a recession!)? Unfortunately our President is obsessed with this health care mess instead. He’s been a real disappointment so far.
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Bill Walker
September 6th, 2009
12:14 pm
The author and some of those commenting are not obviously informed about the facts of this issue. This also applies to Mr. Barnett. His theory was for the states to ask for a convention and “scare” Congress into proposing his amendments. Problem is, Mr. Barnett was not aware of public record. It shows all 50 states have submitted 750 applications for an Article V Convention far in excess of the 34 applications required. The applications can be read at http://www.foavc.org.
Then there are those who say they oppose a convention and use the argument that all that is needed is obey the Constitution as it currently is and there is no need a for a convention. The problem comes that Article V is part of the current Constitution. Its terms have been satisfied. Therefore convention is required. If we follow the argument of these people, therefore they support a convention because we would be obeying the Constitution “as is” meaning if the states apply, a convention must be called.
But they oppose a convention meaning they really don’t want it obeyed “as is”; what they want is a Constitution obeyed “as they see it.” In short, they want to scrap the Constitution just as much as those they criticize, they just want scrap it for their political benefit, not theirs.
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Michael H. Smith
September 6th, 2009
12:21 pm
You’re really not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?
You wouldn’t even make into the tool shed. The name Gordon used was NOT Michelle. See literacy (reading comprehension) is not a strong point with you.
You are a perfect mindless example of why people like you don’t understand what the Founding Fathers created. We are a “Representative Republic” not simply a Republic. (That would be news to you if only you could comprehend the difference)
The ignorant masses like you used more than the last 8 years to run this country into the ground.
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Michael H. Smith
September 6th, 2009
12:24 pm
Swing Vote
September 6th, 2009
12:13 pm
I agree with you and your priorities.
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Michael H. Smith
September 6th, 2009
12:30 pm
Azazel
September 6th, 2009
11:53 am
Government should also not be the healthcare administer or manager. In fact government should not be in any business that would compete against a for-profit entity in the private sector.
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Reform Will Happen
September 6th, 2009
12:40 pm
As in football, pre-season where the starters play relatively little, bears little resemblance to the outcome of the season. And the Birther-Bircher’s-Nine Finger Bill’s (don’t stick your Repubozo finger in someone’s mouth without obtaining prior consent is apparently not something little Repubozos are taught) bear no resemblance to a football coach trying out his roster.
The new kid, Kyle Wingfield has killed a lot of trees lately to write non-sensical column after column with the Repubozos’ favorite MO–they don’t read and research ANYTHING to back up their wild, fraudulent, delusional, and crazy claims that are pure fiction.
Wingfield writes here:
Most important is that Americans seem repulsed by the idea that this issue will be settled on ideological grounds. People consider health care far too personal a matter to be subject to someone else’s political philosophy…Democrats can talk about Republican “intransigence” all they want. But Democrats have all the votes they need for health reform if they can convince the public — not to mention all of their own members — that a government-run “public option” for health insurance is about pragmatism, not ideology.
So far, they haven’t done that any more than Bush-era Republicans convinced the public that their goal of privatizing Social Security wasn’t merely ideological.
.
“Americans Seem Repulsed by the idea…and Democrats haven’t convinced the public” says Wingfield:
Let’s look at the five latest, largest polls on what Americans actually want, something that Wingfield the Wingnut has displayed he’s completely incapapble of doing.
September 2009 Major Surveys on Public Option: What the Country Thinks of the Repuboputzotards: What does America Really Think Backed up By the Four Largest Polls Recently as opposed to Wingnut’s fiction:
A new study by SurveyUSA puts support for a public option at a robust 77 percent, one percentage point higher than where it stood in June.
* The memo cited a CBS poll from September 1st, saying it found strong support for action. What does it say on the public plan? Sixty percent support, 34% oppose.
* The memo cited a CNN poll done through August 31st, saying it found deep public dismay with the system. What does it say on the public plan? Fifty-five percent support, 41% oppose.
* The memo cited a Kaiser poll from August 11th, saying it found overwhelming support for consumer protections. What does it say on the public plan? Fifty nine percent support, 38% oppose.
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Azazel
September 6th, 2009
12:57 pm
Michael H. Smith
I argue that it is, indeed, in the People’s best interests that the government has sufficient influence over: access to health care, quality of health care and sustained health improvement; since the maintenance of health status is not an individual concern, but a national priority. For example, one should not have the right to refuse immunization from a highly virulent and lethal infectious disease, if, say, one infection leads to thirty with seventy-percent mortality.
Since government should not be in competition with for-profit health insurers, then, I will infer from your response, you do not mind having the value of your life “appraised” by actuaries and “bean counters”.
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Reform Will Happen
September 6th, 2009
1:02 pm
Coops are dead and haven’t worked in 30 years. In Grassley and Conrad’s state, they were complete failures and died. Triggers are a complete joke–we’ve had a big Trigger since Truman and the other Trigger was a horse and they’re both dead.
Tax credits would do nothing to stop the exponential increase in insurance premiums and deductibles that are causing one bankruptcy every 30 seconds, 430 Georgians to lose insurance per day, 14000 Americans to lose insurance per day when they get sick.
They won’t do a thing to touch the underinsured’s not being able to afford any more increases or the insurance they have now.
They won’t touch the Medicare Part D donut which the Repubozos passed for big pharma in 2003. Wingfield does not realize that the Repubozos and Blue Dogs are hookers taking in hundreds of thousands this summer and millions in their careers from insurance and pharamceutical companies.
The Repubozos and Blue dogs are hookers, and Insurance and Big Pharama are the johns in a Bunny Ranch paradigm that has existed for years.
And the seats that are in jeapordy in 2010 if public option is not passed, aren’t progressive seats at all. Progressives are safe in their districts. The Blue Dogs will be fired if they refuse a public option, and we don’t care. A Blue Dog is as worthless as a Repubozo on the take. Leiberman and Specter vote with Repubozos as do Conrad and the rest of the Blue Dogs.
So it doesn’t matter at all if a Blue Dog or Repubozos win their districts in 2010–they’re completely the same –hookers on the take from their corporate masters.
Maybe Wingfiredl thinks it’s pure accident that Blue Dog Evan Bayh’s wife has no job, but gets a $400 grand income for years simply sitting on the Board of Wellpoint for years.
What’s going to happen is that the Ben Nelsons and Kent Conrads are going to find out how little their power is, and the Senate Finance Six representing 2.2% of the country is going to find out what happens when they come up against Schumner and Dick Durbin who are roomates and the 2nd and 4th most powerful men in the Senate. Considering Harry Reid is polling worse than “mah mommy gave me lunch money to use on mah nookie” Ensign, Durbin may arguably be more poerful than Reid these days.
Breast Cancer in Wingfield’s wife requiring a triad of surgery, chemo, radiatino–she gets’ dropped in a nanosecond
Malpractice caps of 250 grand modestly reduce the doctor’s premium for malpractice insurance per specialty, but they do nothing for an American’s cost of HEALTH insurance, and Texas where there are 250 grand caps has illustrated this perfectly.
The Robert Wood Johnson study on malpractice recently butresses this.
Michigan, and Oregon and 3 other states have seen insurance premium rate increases by the two insurance companies dominating 94% of the US averaging near 30% in the last two weeks as the insurance gougers rush to jack up premiums and deductibles before legislation.
And Kaiser’s large study projects rates to triple within the next ten years if no reform is passed.
The House reiterated to Obama in it’s conference call Friday (Wingfield is of course unaware of this because he can’t dig and cover the news) that progressive are dead serious–no public option no bill.
House Liberals: Don’t Mess With Public Plan–8′3 House Progressives Say Public Option or They Won’t Support a Bill in the House or in Conference:
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/2009/09/house-liberals-dont-mess-with.html
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Reform Will Happen
September 6th, 2009
1:03 pm
Wingfield ought to read this from a real newspaper that will never hire him:
‘The Heart of Power’
By DAVID BLUMENTHAL and JAMES A. MORONE
Reviewed by ROBERT B. REICH
This history of health policy and the Oval Office shows that the presidents who made the biggest steps in the direction of universal care have acted despite their economic advisers.
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Reform Will Happen
September 6th, 2009
1:08 pm
Wingfireld is a little behind in reading the CBO studies. He should catch up before he contexts them:
New CBO study: Public health care option won’t dominate system
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Michael H. Smith
September 6th, 2009
1:08 pm
Azazel
September 6th, 2009
12:57 pm
You infer wrongly about what I do support. We would likely disagree as to the degree of acceptable government influence and certainly we disagree the maintenance of health status is not an individual concern.
Since you obviously haven’t take the time to trouble yourself to find out what I support to compete with private insurers you can review this link below as an example.
http://www.ghc.org/
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Shannon, M.Div.
September 6th, 2009
1:15 pm
Reform is needed.
We put more money into health care and get worse results than other wealthy countries in measurable, concrete terms like infant mortality and life expectancy. This is just a fact.
Personally, I want my doctor and Coca-Cola to have differing business models. I don’t care if Coca-Cola exists to make a profit. I don’t want my doctor and my insurance company to attempt to make a profit off my health care for reasons that have been cited here over and over. I want the people involved to be able to make a living wage, of course, but I don’t want them looking for ways to cut costs with my health so they can have more profit.
For me, it boils down to this. The liberals are seeing an existing problem with U.S. healthcare. It’s a very real problem; too many people are uninsured, and even the insured are one major catastrophe away from financial devastation.
The conservatives are afraid of shadows–problems that “might” exist if the government takes over healthcare. Well, I’ll take genuine solutions to genuine problems over sticking my head in the sand, pretending that there is no problem, and yelling that the sky might fall if anyone actually addresses it.
People in those terrible socialist countries are happier with their healthcare than we are.
I have health insurance; by most accounts, it’s comprehensive (Aetna). We certainly do pay a lot for it through my husband’s employer. However, my insurance company has denied coverage of a surgery that my doctors (multiple doctors) feel is necessary for my health. Government healthcare options in other countries generally fund that particular surgery, because they are more concerned with health outcomes than profit. Aetna, on the other hand, wants to make money. It’s hard to fault them for that, but why would we as a society choose this? Because we are afraid of the government? How profoundly sad that we (particularly in the South) have been brainwashed into kneejerk anti-government reactions on principle, despite what is in our best interests.
Who runs government? People.
Who runs private businesses? People.
For some things, government is better; for others, private enterprise. It’s time we make the decision to divorce healthcare from a pure profit motive.
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Michael H. Smith
September 6th, 2009
1:21 pm
Shannon, M.Div.
Not many argue against healthcare reforms. A great number do argue against another government run healthcare program, which will lead to a government take over of healthcare.
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Reform Will Happen
September 6th, 2009
1:22 pm
We’re passing public option because we’re tired of Insurats nce Company and Pharmaceutical company influence. They have been standing in the way of what we can Rx and how we can apply what we learn in keeping up because they drop our patients when they get sick.
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Reform Will Happen
September 6th, 2009
1:24 pm
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/
I just got off the phone with Dem Rep. Raul Grijalva, one of more than two dozen House progressives who held a conference call with President Obama today to discuss the public option’s fate.
Says Grijalva: The call left him with no doubt that Obama understands House libs are dead serious about not backing any bill without a public plan in it.
“He understands how serious we are about this,” said Grijalva, one of the co-chairs of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, in describing the tone of the conversation. “For many of us this is not a political dance. He got that point.”
Grijalva says Obama asked how far liberals were willing to compromise on the public option, another sign, Grijalva noted, that he grasps that they mean what they say. He added that Obama asked a number of “frank” and “probing” questions, though he declined to say precisely what they were.
In another newsworthy tidbit, Grijalva says Obama signaled that discussions about the public option would continue even after his big speech before a joint session of Congress next week. That may be an indication that Obama won’t be mentioning the public option in his speech, but doesn’t want liberals to despair at that prospect.
Either the public optioin passes, or there won’t be a bill passed.
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Reform Will Happen
September 6th, 2009
1:27 pm
So here’s the question for September: When will Democrats follow suit? Question from Wingnut Wingfield:
We won’t “follow suit.” We clobbered Repubozos in the election and we voted for health care reform and public option. 83 House members signed a letter I linked above saying we won’t have a bill without public option. We don’t have to follow your suit. We beat your candidates by a mile.
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Azazel
September 6th, 2009
1:35 pm
My apologies Michael H. Smith, I will follow your link later.
Thank you
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Art at Large
September 6th, 2009
1:35 pm
Gordon…
You accuse me of merely taking up space on a blog, but I didn’t insult you the way you have me.
And my “left wing talking-points” don’t come from the DNC…they come from having been priced out of the health insurance market, and losing my job, house, land, and equity after becoming seriously ill and needing a series of operations.
I speak from experience.
Sure, reasonable people can agree…but it is you who has resorted to the insult.
I also notice that you don’t offer any alternatives to the problem of health-care…just negativity.
I also notice that you didn’t comment on my original post. You reply to my second post wherein I support the opinions of people you disagree with.
Sour grapes.
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Steve Khalar
September 6th, 2009
2:46 pm
Lets cut to the chase. We all want a better healthcare insurance programjust not the one currently on the table. We need to create laws that include no pre-existing conditions, true portability, and lower premuims. So adopt a plan that reuires all insurance companies to underwrite policies that take into account all 350 million people with no health questions and require all people to have health insurance with a minimum of catastrophic care and include option s for everything else based on sound underwirting policies. this would decrease the cost of insurance for everyone probably around 20%. Have the government subsidize the insurance on a income based scale for lower to middle income people. Keep it in the hand of private industry with government supervision and it will not cost tax payers a penny more.
We currently have an unfunded liabilty of $56 billion for Social Sercurity and Medicare which amounts to $483,000 per household now. What would UHC do? We need to get our Federal house in order before we take on any more unfunded liabilties
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Liars!
September 6th, 2009
4:29 pm
As it is, we’re about to get health care reform that measures human beings only in corporate terms of a cost-benefit analysis. I mean this is topsy-turvy — we should be treating health as a condition, not a commodity.
Bill Moyers, September 5, 2009
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Liars!
September 6th, 2009
4:32 pm
BTW – that unfunded liability of $56 billion for Social Security would not be there had the government not raided it for pet projects. If we DON’T get health care reform, the costs to people and the rising costs of health care will continue to go through the roof – man is a pig when it comes to making money off anything. See the above quote!
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Nick
September 6th, 2009
5:49 pm
Unconvincing argument. Still disappointed in the Republicans version of health care reform.
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Sandy
September 6th, 2009
5:53 pm
With adequate funding Medicaid could enroll eligible citizens and health departments charge on a sliding scale so why don’t we use these current methods while some other solution is worked out? Also, health departments treat all comers last time I heard.
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Base
September 6th, 2009
6:28 pm
Where is the republican alternative, are is it just say no.
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Reform Will Happen
September 6th, 2009
7:20 pm
It is just say duh.
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ATLPRINCE
September 6th, 2009
7:21 pm
Thank him
No one has talked about the stock market for months, why? Cause it’s UP.
Thank him
American car company’s just posted a huge profit because of “cash 4
clunkers”.
Thank him
The American government just made more than 4 Billion Dollars from the
loans that it made to banks and stands to make a ton more to help pay
down the deficit that was created when the last Administration
sqaundered our surplus and redirected it to their buddies in the war
contracting business.
Thank Him
Americans can now go to more places safely globally now that we as
Americans are looked at differently compared to the last administration.
Thank Him
He is trying to make sure every citizen has access to basic health
care, but you don’t care unless your “social” Medicare is cut.
Thank Him
AND YOU HAVE ENOUGH NERVE TO QUESTION A FORMER HARVARD COLLEGE PROFFESOR ABOUT
TALKING TO YOUR KIDS ABOUT THE VALUE OF STAYING IN SCHOOL! HOW DARE YOU, YOU UNGRATEFUL UNCONCIOUS
BIGOTS!!!!!
YOU SHOULD THANK PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA FOR CARING ABOUT EVEN YOUR
MEAN, SELFISH, NARCACISTIC, UNDERCOVER RACIST, CAUCASION BUTT!!!!
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Reform Will Happen
September 6th, 2009
7:27 pm
Bill Frist and the Repubozos put Medicare on track for in the red in 8 years because they played hookers to the johns from Big Pharma with Billy Tauzin as Rahm tried to do this summer. The House has rejected it. Deal won’t fly.
Reason for the Medicare Part D donut is that Medicare can’t bid competitively via consortium like Piedmont, Emory Healthcare and every metro Atlanta and private hospital in the US does.
White House Affirms Deal on Drug Cost brokered by Rahm and the Senate Finznce Sux Six–House Bills wreck Rahm’s Deal and 83 Progressives Won’t Vote for It
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/06/health/policy/06insure.html
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Reform Will Happen
September 6th, 2009
7:34 pm
Ah goin keep mah babuhs outta school for a week if thet Sociulust Hiphop artist in the WHITE HOUSE tries to indockrinate um.
They kin stay at home and watch DVRs of Hotlanta House Trashinistas and ah goin’ teach ‘em the words to the Ballad of Nine Finger Bill James Giles.
ԒԒԒԒԒԒԒԒԒԒ In du key of G for Billy James Giles a Great Repubozo Amerikun:
“Doncha put yo fingers anywheres near someone’s mouth without askun first.”
Muh kids will be integral to JawJaw’s stayin’ 47th in SATs you betcha and but also.
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Reform Will Happen
September 6th, 2009
8:16 pm
Largest 4 Current Polls on Public Option:
A new study by SurveyUSA puts support for a public option at a robust 77 percent, one percentage point higher than where it stood in June.
CBS Sept. 1 Sixty percent support, 34% oppose.
CNN poll done through August 31st,Fifty-five percent support, 41% oppose.
Kaiser poll from August 11th, Fifty nine percent support, 38% oppose.
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Me First
September 6th, 2009
9:58 pm
Shannon,M. Div.: “However, my insurance company has denied coverage of a surgery that my doctors (multiple doctors) feel is necessary for my health.” I’m reacting to an post of eight hours ago, but I’m curious. What surgery? You don’t go into much detail. Perhaps the powers at be have decided your life is not worth saving(Obamacare). Just because technology can keep you alive doesn’t mean the resouces should be allocated to it. You may not be worth it.
You think physicians and insurers shouldn’t be allowed to profit? In case you didn’t notice, most physicians are very intellegent. They are not restricted to practicing medicine. They could go onto be lawyers, engineers, hedge fund managers, celebrity chefs, politicians, ect. Do you get my drift? In my opinion the best way to “reform” heathcare is to allow the entire industry to be one big tax free enerprise zone. That will attract real innovation. what are afraid of?
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Me First
September 6th, 2009
10:03 pm
Reform will Happen…get real. Our Asian creditors will not finance another debt binge by the U.S.
Treasury. Current outlays are 185% of domestic intake. It will not happen. The USA is functionally bankrupt. All of you are dreaming…………………….zzz.
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Gordon
September 6th, 2009
10:26 pm
Michael S.,
Read my earlier posts, when I was responding to people who I diagree with but who weren’t just saying things like the GOP wants people to die. Notice the tone and content of their posts and my response, then compare that with your “ideas” and you will have the answer to your questions.
And by the way, if you are outraged about Republicans getting donations from insurance companies, where is that outrage about Democrats getting donations from trial lawyers, which explains why there is no tort reform in H.R. 3200. And I suppose the financial system problems had nothing to do with the Democrat backed Community Reinvestment Act which forced banks to lend money based on race rather than ability to repay. Or just too many people buying homes they couldn’t afford. We all agree there should have been more regulation, but that is just another failure of the same government you want to run our health care. Since the Democrats had the Congress since 2006, why didn’t they do anything about it? No, it’s all Bush’s fault, the “chimp-in-charge”. Step away from all the emotion and do some thinking.
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SL3
September 6th, 2009
11:40 pm
This democrat proposal is just expanding medicare to everyone. Medicare is going through money faster than we can print it. I am tired of hearing about 48 million people without insurance. If anyone of them gets sick or has an accident they will be treated. I doubt the figures thrown out by either side are close to being accurate anyway. I want to know how much coverage the government plan will offer and how much our taxes will go up to pay for it. So far I haven’t heard an answer to either one. Obama says he wants to offer everyone as good a coverage as he and the other politicians have. That’s a gold plated policy better than most of have with our private plans. He’s going to take my tax money and give someone who may not pay any taxes a better plan than me?
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ArtatLarge
September 6th, 2009
11:49 pm
I made no distinction between Dems and Repubs when it comes to the effects of industry donations to politicians. The effects of trial-lawyer donations to politicians are just as bad as those from the health-insurance companies.
But, tort reform is simply a bad idea in and of itself…people who have legitimate grievances are subjected to an arbitrary limit on damages. A lifetime of suffering, or a death, would be paid off at a pittance, which the insurance companies would love. They could compensate for permanent suffering or death for the cost of a morning’s work from their CEO.
A Democratic Congress in 2006 did not fix the problem, that’s true. But they were saddled with a Republican President. And wasn’t there also plenty of time for Bush and the Republican Congress to do something, as well? They had 6 years. They also had the advantage of controlling all 3 branches of government, as opposed to a Clinton-era splitting of control. And, don’t forget that Bill Clinton faced a hostile Congress led by the likes of Tom (The Hammer) DeLay. They had the votes to overturn a Clinton veto. There is plenty of blame to go around, but it was during Bush’s tenure that the culture of de-regulation took off.
Much of our financial crisis was caused by credit default swaps, bundles of mortgages very likely to turn sour. The Republican Congress during the last months of the Clinton administration specifically forbad the regulation of these complex and paper-bound financial instruments, which was really the crux of the problem. The Republican ideal of “getting out of the way of business” is what gutted the oversight and regulatory functions. Again, the Republican Congress that did that had the votes to override a potential Clinton veto.
And, finally, it would seem to me that since you are the one who offers insult ( “…do some thinking”), that it is indeed YOU who should step away from all the emotion.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
6:04 am
Gordon
September 6th, 2009
10:26 pm
Now that you have made your reply a bit clearer as to whom you are speaking to I suggest you do the same in regards to reading MY earlier comments, ALL of them on this blog and others. The confusion will soon vanish rest assured. I have been staunchly against HR 3200 from the very beginning and remain staunchly against it (this would include any other future government ran healthcare program).
I do not favor HR 3400 either and if you happen to read what I posted on Jay Bookman’s blog about what I’d want to see in healthcare cooperatives you’ll find I went after trial lawyers, Unions and Pharmaceutical companies, etc. none of which the Democrats would dare touch. On the Republican side I went after Insurance companies, HMOs’, and even a better means of funding things like medical savings accounts and medical scholarships to produce the needed doctors that are now and will be even more so in the future in short supply – especially to serve rural areas and in some urban areas as well (all without creating any new taxes).
Step away from all the emotion and do some thinking.
Thanks for the advice but I’ve did that along time ago. As you’ll notice I didn’t drag into the discussion other issues like housing, financing and the incompetence of politicians in allowing my emotions to divert my attentions from the healthcare debate at hand.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
6:19 am
ArtatLarge – Have you ever put a young man or young lady through college and medical school?
If you have then you should know tort reform is necessary to limit punitive damages on pain and suffering and why trial lawyers shouldn’t be protected like sacred cows. The dreams of winning at the game of “medical legal lotto” should be forever removed.
Before you ask me if I ever put a young man or young lady through college and medical school, the answer is yes.
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Gerald West
September 7th, 2009
6:56 am
All this ranting about “government run health care”, and “competition” in health care is puzzling. No one has proposed government-run health care; all proposals for reform leave health care in the hands of private physicians, clinics, and hospitals.
What is proposed as the public option is a program like Medicare.
Medicare is a government-coordinated health care program that is far more satifactory and efficient than any private health insurance program. Medicare relies totally on private practitioners to deliver health care. Medicare subcontracts claims processing and other clerical functions to the lowest bidders, usually insurance companies. There is no large staff of government employees running Medicare; it works just fine as long as Congress stays out of it.
Private insurance companies have no place in basic health care coverage. They are the problem, not the solution. They make money by denying coverage and rejecting claims, not by providing reliable coverage to all applicants. Their administrative overhead is high compared to Medicare, about 25% vs. 6%.
The solution to the wacky American health care mess is a Medicare-like program for basic heath care, with private insurance companies offering supplemental coverage to those willing and able to pay for it.
I’d don’t mind medical providers (doctors, clinics, HMOs, etc.) competing to provide the best health care, but I don’t want to rely for basic health care on insurance companies that cherry-pick their clients, then try to find ways to cancel my coverage or deny treament if I become seriously ill.
Use your heads, people. Don’t get tripped up by muddled terminology and outdated concepts. Right now, reform is about the way we allocate and pay for medical services, not about medical practice.
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Gordon
September 7th, 2009
7:31 am
My comments have been directed at “Michael Szedon a.k.a. Art at Large”. Sorry for the confusion.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
7:36 am
Medicare is government owned, ran(managed) and administered program.
I do not want government allocating, re-allocating or paying for my medical services, which has everything to do with the doctor-patient relation in the practice of medicine.
If anything is a dated failed concept, it is socialism. The Public Option is one more step on the socialist pathway.
The Public Option is not required to end cherry picking, preexisting claims, lifetime caps or denial of or limiting treatment. All of these health insurance industry practices could be eliminated in one law without any new government program or one more additional penny sent to the government.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
7:37 am
No problem Gordon or need for apology.
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Gordon
September 7th, 2009
7:38 am
Gerald,
Do you realize that Medicare and Medicaid are bankrupt? They have tens of trillions of unfunded liabilities. They are unsustainable. And you want to extend that model to everyone? That would be like extended the model of government California uses to the entire United States because the weather is nice out there. Of course people like Medicare – they get something that NO ONE PAYS FOR. We’ve see recently what happens when people get things (houses) that no one pays for. IT DOESN’T WORK!! The vast majority of people are going to have to have significant service reductions (another word for rationing), or the Chinese say enough is enough and stop lending us money. I can’t believe they are still doing that now.
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Gordon
September 7th, 2009
7:46 am
The problem with R’s is that they underregulate. The problem with D’s is that they overparticipate. Government should be like an umpire in a baseball game. R’s want the batter to call balls and strikes, and D’s want to give the batter 4 strikes because he is not a good hitter. Neither works.
We should have private health insurance, but government should keep them from dropping people when they get sick, limit how much they can raising premiums on an individual when they get sick, limit how much punitive damages (NOT medical payments) can be awarded, help on the portability issue, etc.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
8:22 am
Upon the singing of this bill into law anywhere within the jurisdiction of the United States of America, any entity inuring the health and well being of any U.S. Citizen shall sell health insurance to any U.S. Citizen applicant and shall not be permit to set lifetime caps, cancel health insurance coverage for any reason other than non-payment of premiums or limit in any fashion whatsoever full payment for the treatment of any medical condition as prescribed under the advice and care of a licensed physician within the jurisdiction of the United States of America.
Okay socialist libs there you have it. Your excuse for a socialist government single payer Public Option program and whining about greedy insurance companies has just been taken away. I’ll leave any other legal details to the Congress, while the whimpering lot that remains dries-up those big crocodile tears. (sniffle, sniffle)
Now, want to talk about reforms correcting the trial lawyers and tort reform, BIG GREEDY PHARMA (which is far more profitable than the greedy health insurance industry), medical device makers, waste, fraud and abuse within the healthcare system etc., etc.
Guess not, you guys have not done so to date.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
8:45 am
Thanks for the link Bill. A convention should be under way or should have been already convened. Bring it on. First item to address is the commerce clause found in Article One.
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So what?
September 7th, 2009
9:29 am
And what would you call Georgia legislatures like Judson Hill who wants to ban the Federal government from “imposing” health care on its citizens? Obviously Mr. Hill is too STUPID to understand the meaning of the word “option.” He is just another jerk-wad politician trying to score cheap political points by whipping his rabid conservative base up into a frenzy with a lie. So typical. But I doubt Kyle would EVER call out another right wing idiot.
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David Axelfraud
September 7th, 2009
9:36 am
The headline should read: Democrats are morons when it comes to health care.
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David Axelfraud
September 7th, 2009
9:37 am
So what?, would Jay Bookman ever call out a left wing idiot? Nope.
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JD
September 7th, 2009
10:05 am
The posts by “Voice” and “Art” and the rest of the left here are nothing more than an expression of their jealousy and contempt for the successful. “Voice” and his pseudo-intellectual rants citing bogus statistics, along with his personal attacks on anyone who disagrees, are as boring as the speeches from Obama and the “Members” of Congress.
One more, “I don’t want anyone profiting off of my misery…” tirade will be toooooooo much. If any of you have a JOB you are profiting off of someone’s misery. Sell Shoes? Someone does not have shoes and therefore you are profiting from their misery.
Do you want what England, France and the other “socialized medicine” countries have? Doctors and nurses educated in Third World countries who are hardly able to communicate and have far fewer skills than those we are currently blessed to have in the US.
Lawyers are the most egregious examples of “profiting from misery” because their pals in Congress pass laws allowing the rest to avoid tort reform and profit from someone’s MISERY. The state of Texas passed tort reform and MD’s and medical personnel are moving there and health care costs are low.
From “Voice”, “The VA provides the best care…” etc., etc. That is simply untrue. The best medical care in the US is generally accepted to be at the Mayo Clinic. Guess where health costs are among the lowest in the nation? That is right, the area around the Mayo Clinic.
As in most problems, the health care issue is a States Rights issue. The states also have the RIGHT under the Constitution to decide their own solutions to health care problems within their boundaries. The Congress is acting outside the limits set by the Constitution and should not be involved.
California, with the election of Jerry Brown in the 70’s, started the walk down the path the current clown in the White House is attempting to take the entire country. The result? California is bankrupt and people are leaving the state in droves.
What took California down the path to ruin? The answer – public employee unions, green initiatives that would produce thousands of jobs (NOT), cash for clunkers, opposition to the building of power plants, and more and more of the socialist agenda – including initiatives that would require tax increases that would actually produce LESS revenue.
California is an example of the future of the US if the Democrats and Republicans are not voted out of Congress in favor of politicians who not only take an oath to uphold the Constitution but actually abide by that oath.
Each and every incumbent should be defeated in 2010.
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One Voice
September 7th, 2009
10:45 am
JD,
I am certainly not jealous of others’ success. I live pretty comfortably, as do most people with advanced educations. However, I am repulsed by people like yourself and the “I got mine so screw everyone else” attitude. That’s exactly the type of immorality I’m talking about. I actually care if poorer people and their families have access to the same type of health care I do. How can you live with yourself?
So you’ve taken a lot of statistics courses? Somehow I doubt whether you have the prerequisite knowledge to discern whether a statistic is bogus or not. Please check the statistics cited at 8:16 and let me know what the methodological flaws in those analyses were. I have a feeling I’ll be waiting a couple years for a response while you take some basic statistics courses.
Your reasoning suggesting that profiting from selling anything is the same as profiting from denying people medical treatment is both obtuse and intellectually disingenuous, which in turn makes it unethical. Shoes are not relevant to the conversation, but simple minds obviously need to oversimplify to the point of distortion (see your post and the town hall meetings).
The Mayo Clinic is a single entity, not a health care system, genius. The VA is the highest quality system in the world and operates at a much lower cost than our current system. Oh, and it’s also a single payer government-run plan.
You have obviously bought into the myth that England has an inferior system to our own. Next you’ll be telling us that Stephen Hawking would never have survived under the UK medical system. Providing health care for all Americans is a moral issue. Having a nation of selfish idiots like yourself who believe in myths and superstitions, who know nothing of science or statistics, and who have perverse views of history and politics is an educational issue. Unfortunately, those issues are intricately linked.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
10:52 am
I don’t disagree with much of what you had to say JD. Especially on the Federal government overstepping it constitutional authority in regards to the States and States Rights. However, as one lady, a small business owner in fact, told her disinterested Democrat Representative, there are over 1,300 health insurance companies in the U.S. but in California she can only purchase healthcare insurance from about 13 of these companies. True, it is the Right of the State to license and issue licenses and not that of the federal government or an individual’s right to license anything under the tenth amendment of the U.S. Constitution. However, I will have to side with Rep. Duncan Hunter and the small business lady in California: I and every U.S. citizen should be able to buy their health insurance from any entity that insures the health and well being of a U.S. Citizen within the jurisdiction of the United States of America that is licensed to sell insurance by any State in this union. No differently than when one is buying homeowners insurance, auto insurance or life insurance. I don’t fear honest competition or the creation of more honest competition than presently exists within the capitalist market in order to bend the cost curve on healthcare insurance in making it affordable and potentially improve the quality of healthcare. And I don’t consider government honest competition.
By the way, see Bill Walker’s post in the previous blog – About term limits, etc. – in regards to the Constitutional Convention that should have already been convened under Article Five.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
11:14 am
Stephen Hawking fortunately has received medical aid outside of the the UK. Otherwise he would be a silent vegetable, not be able to speak as he does today. His computer voice came from the USA, which makes it possible for him to communicate.
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One Voice
September 7th, 2009
12:41 pm
Michelle H. Smith,
Stephen Hawking has lived his entire life in the UK and two weeks ago said that he wouldn’t be alive right now if not for the fabulous care he’s received in the UK (socialist) health care system. Please forgive me if I choose to believe the words of the actual scientist over those of a construction worker from Georgia.
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Azazel
September 7th, 2009
1:50 pm
For Michael H. Smith
http://crooksandliars.com/taxonomy/term/134
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DebbieDoRight
September 7th, 2009
2:21 pm
What’s a Kyle Wingfeld………..?
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
2:23 pm
To the jerk (likely from New York) posing as One Voice – I’ll take the words that were spoken by that actual people involved that gave back to Stephen Hawking a voice so he could speak instead of remaining mute. You can take their words too, the next time the documentary airs on the Science Channel. The UK socialist system couldn’t do that, not even for one of their most prominent citizens who receives better than most other citizens of the UK.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
2:29 pm
Azazel – thanks for the link but it isn’t telling anything I don’t know already. Did you happen to review the link I left for you? One other thing, did you know that the crooks and liars in the pharmaceutical industry are far more profitable that those health insurance industry crooks and lairs of your discontent?
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MHS
September 7th, 2009
5:04 pm
I like how people want to say they only pay a few dollars for prescriptions in these plans in other countries; they conveniently leave out that this is on top of paying like 48% of your income in taxes. The real cost of the prescription might actually be $100.
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Barbara Hudson
September 7th, 2009
5:10 pm
Lets be aware of who gets what with the healthcare bills..Insurance companies are being guaranteed more than their fair share.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
5:58 pm
Lets not forget all the rest who are getting more than their fair share guaranteed. Once again, BIG PHARMA gets more than BIG INSURANCE.
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One Voice
September 7th, 2009
8:37 pm
Michelle H. Smith (likely from a trailer in south Georgia),
Technology developed at a research university is a completely different issue than health care coverage. We still have some of the best universities in the world where cutting edge treatments are being developed (because there are still a few well educated people here); we have a very poor health care system that is far inferior to the British system. Did you think families living in poverty can just walk into a research university for treatment? Brilliant, just brilliant.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
9:18 pm
To the jerk (likely from New York)
Healthcare insurance reform is completely different than healthcare reform which is the entire healthcare system. Which would include technology developed at a research university. Don’t seem to want to make the distinction between the two only when it suit a lame argument. The British system is so much better than our very poor healthcare system, as you really believe in the British system, then if you contract cancer be sure to go to the UK for treatment. I’ll just stay in the poor old USA where cancer survivability rates are higher and send your flowers over to Lilburn upon you return.
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One Voice
September 7th, 2009
9:38 pm
Michelle,
What I don’t need is someone who never even went to college telling me how a research university factors into the health care system. I am at a national research university, and health reform affects insurance, coverage, hospitals, private practices, and patients but has almost nothing to do with the work at research universities. Once again you have shown how little you understand the issue.
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Michael H. Smith
September 7th, 2009
9:46 pm
Good luck Michelle whoever you are and don’t believe a word this clown voice says.
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One Voice
September 7th, 2009
10:39 pm
I accept your surrender, Michelle H. Smith. Now get back to your trailer.
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Tom Vega-Byrnes
September 8th, 2009
1:11 am
Tax credits don’t work on a cashflow basis. What good is it to people who need to pay the doctor today that as much as 15-18 months later they may see some cash out of a tax refund mechanism. Medical providers are already stretched to breaking by insolvent States that can’t pay their Medicare bills. There is no getting around the fact that if we are going to help those without health care get it, or cover portions they can’t afford, we will have to make upfront payments out of the public purse. If you’re against this, you’re against universal health care. There’s no hiding this fact in the debate.
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TRUTH
September 8th, 2009
6:37 am
This why we need health insurance reform:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/07/AR2009090702455.html
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Your morning jolt: If your kid. Comes home. Talking like this. It's Obama's fault. | Political Insider
September 8th, 2009
9:41 am
[...] Kyle Wingfield thinks Democrats are the ideologues on health care. [...]
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kwingfield
September 8th, 2009
11:11 am
About those poll numbers, Reform Will Happen: CBS News also has poll numbers from Sept. 1 showing that two-thirds of Americans say they don’t understand the health reforms being debated, and that a plurality of 47 percent think the government would do a worse job than private insurers of providing coverage — a big shift from just a couple of months earlier: http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/poll_healthcare_090109.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody
Mark Hemingway at National Review does a good job here of explaining why we should take high polling numbers in support of “a” public option with a grain of salt: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTFiZjJhZDJkNGI3OGNmY2M1NzJkNjhiMjBkNmY5M2U=&w=MA==
I still don’t think Democrats have done an adequate job of making the case for their plans. It will be interesting to see if/how President Obama steps in to change this debate into one he can win.
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stands for decibels
September 8th, 2009
11:11 am
I applaud the civilized tone and about 95% of the content, Kyle, so even though I strongly disagree with your characterization of Obama’s initiatives, I do think this was very much the right post at the right time.
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Ramguy
September 8th, 2009
11:22 am
This is just like the wingnuts. When they notice they are being seen as foolish they change the tone. Now it’s Obama changed the speech. Of course they don’t have an ounce of evidence to prove this. The R’s don’t need any help to look foolish. They’ve already filled that position with themselves.
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Rachel
September 8th, 2009
11:28 am
It is even worse that that. The Republican party message appears to have been hijacked by shock jock entertainment. Although their extreme messages may get ratings with the party base, they are scaring away moderates and Independents from the party. Moderates and Independents close their ears when people argue against Obama’s policies by calling them “Socialist” and when they call Obama “Hitler,” a Marxist, and a “Commie.” Right wing shock entertainers are successfully making the Republican party look nutty and like the boy who cries wolf. People are closing not opening their ears to the Republican message. The shock entertainers are putting the reasonable Republican politicians in the odd position of rejecting the nutty shock jock claims (and defending Obama e.g. Obama is not an “Arab,” Obama is a valid citizen, school children should watch the speech) and offending their base or accepting the extreme claims and looking nutty themselves. This is not a good position for the Republican party. Now that the Republicans have been found to cry wolf on Obama’s speech, it will look like they are crying wolf on healthcare. The Republicans have successfully marginalized themselves by allowing the popular right wing shock jocks to get too big, powerful, extreme, and angry for their own good.
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Julian Fairchild
September 8th, 2009
11:28 am
Makes no difference to me what party the president belongs to – republican or democrat – he has no right to speak directly to children without consent from parents. Politics is for adults to be concerned about. Children have enough conflict without further conflict being offered by any president. It is impossible for a president to offer the individual consideration which children deserve in his speech. What shall we say to the child who tragically lost his parents or whose parents are drug addicts, when the president urges children to “listen to your parents:” Who will be there to console the child or clean up his mess? What about the potential arguments over politics within the schools – even if out of loyalty to one’s parents, children are taking on the republican vs. democrat debate with aggression and hostility? Regardless of the President’s intent, which I suspect is reasonably pure, the whole thing smacks of arrogance, inconsideration and is lacking a well thought out and mindful assessment of the speech’s impact.
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kwingfield
September 8th, 2009
11:34 am
Ramguy: Read the whole Boortz column, which makes exactly that point…namely, that such a reaction now is petty and pointless.
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Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012
September 8th, 2009
11:35 am
Stop the insanity of having this foriegn born muslim communist indocrinate out innocent children with socialism and islam. We need to rise up as one great Christian nation and regain our Presidency. A vote for the Bush Cheney ticket in 2012 is a start. God Bless America. And please push for more tax cuts for the wealthy – to get this country out of obama’s depression.
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J. W. Rittenhouse II
September 8th, 2009
11:36 am
Reducing this to political diatribe is totally missing the point. The Federal Government is overstepping its bounds and has been since about 1916. The government does not belong in our schools, or our lives for that matter. It’s time to take our constitution back, undo the changes toward democracy and give ourselves back to “the republic for which it stands”.
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Dan
September 8th, 2009
11:39 am
Conservatives should read The Boy Who Cried Wolf and pay attention to the moral: “Even when liars tell the truth, they are never believed. The liar will lie once, twice, and then perish when he tells the truth.”
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Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012
September 8th, 2009
11:39 am
J. W. Rittenhouse II – Right on brother! Lets start first by shutting down the Federal and State governments. The good thing about obama’s dictatorship is that we all can see what were fighting and once again, the muslims have united us like they did after 9/11. This kenyan(?) is proof at just how insane our government has become.
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Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012
September 8th, 2009
11:42 am
Dan – If obama (your massa) was telling the truth – he show us his birth certificate – apparently he is suppressing the release of his Kenyan one. So who’s the liar?
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Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012
September 8th, 2009
11:46 am
Ramguy & Rachel, Please vote Republican in 2012. The Republicans fought for the little guy by getting tax cuts for the wealthy. The wealthy obviously then have more money so some of it gets to trickle down to the low and middle class folks (the little people). Obama gave the middle class a tax break in his so caled stimulas package – loser!
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jt
September 8th, 2009
11:47 am
Mr. Wingfield wrote;
“But rather than seeing Republicans take on Obama and the Democrats on these and other substantive issues, we’re getting a rerun of the Bush years.”
Complain all you want,
You’ll be voting Republican this coming election.
Don’t question your elders son.
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jt
September 8th, 2009
11:48 am
boy
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Davo
September 8th, 2009
11:52 am
Kyle please do us the favor of seperating the terms ‘republican’ and ‘conservative’ as they ceased to become synonomous since before Reagan.
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Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012
September 8th, 2009
11:59 am
Davo – In a crazy world were a muslim communist from Kenya is president of the U.S.A. The Republicans are the only thing that seperates God fearing right thinking AMERICANS from death camps.
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Amy White
September 8th, 2009
12:22 pm
Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012 I am completely disgusted with your ignorance and prejudice against our president. To claim your belief in name of religion is the same reason why the religion itself distants itself from like of people like you. Religion never once stated that “white” were better then other races in the world. Re read your bible and read teh descriptions that were given of people on the era. Learn the reason why your ancestors came here. Obama is nothing like Fidel Castro because if that were the case the we would not be allowed to travel to other countries and would all be in the same class. Everyone would be neither rich nor poor and the constitution just would not exist. Obama is a Christian. Kenya is a country that was torn apart because of Muslim trying to take control of the oil and thus the “Kenyans” were killed because they were Christians or displaced into refugee camps. It is now that some have been able to return to their village. And just because someones parents is a certain religion it does not mean the child is as well. We are all adults therefore can decide which religion to follow. You are just a sorry excuse for an American in this country and prove that ignorance and racism will always exist.
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Churchill's MOM
September 8th, 2009
12:25 pm
We need a Woman at the head of the ticket.. ****Palin Sanford/Mccain/Cheney 2012
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deoblotwo
September 8th, 2009
12:30 pm
Normally most folks wouldn’t oppose his address to the schools. However, looking at his political background & folks he has been proven to associate with, it seems logical no parent wants him to have their childs undevided attention to discuss anything without there approval. Finally american parents are starting to take responsibility for what happens in the class room. (I applaud you!!) Even if its a very small step.
Secondly, I can’t understand the liberal mind set that when any president & his political machine: Pulosie, Reed, Franks etc. Make remarks about retirees, some of which are Vets (in Wheel chairs), mothers & fathers of children serving in the arm forces and call them un-patriotic and say this country can’t afford to provide them with health care benefits because we have a volunteer
service & they knew what they were signing up for & they must have a different definition of patriotism than he does. (Someone who hasn’t spent a day in uniform, has defended anything but his corrupt budies from Chicago; what does he have to do to reveil his true identity.
If a republican, or independent had made some of these remarks about your parents, children or family members that you know for a fact are not riot fear mungers will you ever take a stand to protect this country & your heritage. No wonder so many are ashamed to admit they voted for him. When will you!!!!
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Amy White
September 8th, 2009
12:34 pm
If it were a white president there would have never been an uproar to Obama speaking to our children.
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Jake
September 8th, 2009
12:47 pm
When Ronald Reagan spoke to kids in 1986 was there an uproar? His speech was pure politics. Look up the text.
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American Gal
September 8th, 2009
12:53 pm
Since today is the first day of school, I have a pop quiz for you. Who said the following?
“Every time you walk through that classroom door, make it your mission to get a good education. Don’t do it just because your parents, or even the President, tells you. Do it for yourselves. Do it for your future. And while you’re at it, help a little brother or sister to learn, or maybe even Mom or Dad. Let me know how you’re doing. Write me a letter — and I’m serious about this one — write me a letter about ways you can help us achieve our goals.”
Who said it? Even suggested kids TEACH THEIR PARENTS??
Nope, not Obama. GHWB in an October 1991 televised address to our nation’s schoolchildren. http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/research/public_papers.php?id=3450&year=1991&month=10
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Swami Dave
September 8th, 2009
12:59 pm
Amy White:
a) By your response, I can only assume that you actually thought “Jeb / Liz 2012″ was a legitimate poster. I can only refer you to the repeated stereotypical ravings of the clueless idiot, “Redneck Convert”, in Bookman’s threads for more examples of negative demagoguery by someone unable to apparently make reasoned philosophical defenses of their own ideas. It would be as completely asinine as someone else posting under the pseudonym “Jimmy StewartAve” and making outlandish comments in ebonics about “gubmint cheeeeze”.
In all likelihood, you are arguing against someone who probably holds philosophical beliefs in line with yours, but who lacks even the most basic ability to explain or defend them.
b) To your comment “If it were a white president there would have never been an uproar to Obama speaking to our children.”, I contend that you show much more focus and attention to race than do those whom you oppose. My 7 year old son is not listening to PrezBO today because of his philosophies and his policies. I would opt him out of any occasion where a collectivist (that would be liberal, communist, facist, or socialist) is to be allowed to propogandize. I would also opt him out of any occasion where a thief was being celebrated. Since liberals do with legislation what thieves do with guns, that is doubly reason (collectivist & thief) to prevent that influence.
To your point, if it were a SUPPORTER OF FREEDOM, OPPORTUNITY, AND ACHIEVEMENT, -I- would have had no problem with PrezBO speaking to my son.
-SD
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Hillbilly Deluxe
September 8th, 2009
1:03 pm
I don’t agree with Obama on much of anything but I can’t get all worked up over a “stay in school and get an education” speech. Daddy used to give us that speech nearly everyday growing up. He never finished high school and understood the value of an education, probably more so than a lot of people with higher educations.
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Azazel
September 8th, 2009
1:11 pm
This our “Blazing Saddles” moment in history (or should I say histrionics) Indeed “The sheriff (president) is …” . The republicans have succeeded in destroying all government by deceit and divisiveness.
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American Gal
September 8th, 2009
1:14 pm
Swami Dave posted (to Amy): To your comment “If it were a white president there would have never been an uproar to Obama speaking to our children.”, I contend that you show much more focus and attention to race than do those whom you oppose.
Here’s the thing about sublimation …. usually the person redirecting a latent feeling doesn’t realize it.
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Black Like Me
September 8th, 2009
1:15 pm
Swami Dave,
In the words of Bill O’Reily, you sir are a pinhead and an idiot.
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Bo Chambliss Lobbyist
September 8th, 2009
1:18 pm
Saxby will be voting for the Cap & Trade, it is full of Ethanol subsidies and we all know how Saxby loves those midwest corn farmers.
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LM
September 8th, 2009
1:30 pm
Good heaven people get a grip…education is neither democratic or republican…If the president wants to encourage children to learn he does it as a concerned American. I encourage children to learn every single day, and they don’t give a hoot what party I associate with. Focus your energy on teaching your children how to read, write and spell, encourage them to work hard, and stop spending so much time name calling and tearing down fellow american citizens.
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Charly
September 8th, 2009
1:46 pm
I agree, to think that our children have to be subjected to messages like “stay in school”, “work hard”, “don’t give up”, “I believe in you”, etc…
What an outrage!
Worse yet, to think our children have to see someone who, regardless of whether they agree with him or not, has become the President of the United States.
Can you imagine the chaos that would grow if our children were constantly encouraged by successful public figures?
Utter madness I tell you!
I mean why should the government intrude on our lives when we were fine being lazy, remote, fly by night parents to begin with? I don’t need a speech, I’m like the majority of other parents and allow my child the normal 5 hours of TV a day with no physical activity and McDonalds for dinner every night. I haven’t helped them with homework in like 4 years, but doesn’t American Idol teach them everything they need to know?
I can’t believe the audacity of this President!
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Thomas J. Waeghe
September 8th, 2009
1:58 pm
How soon they forget: In 1989, President George H.W. Bush gave a 15-minute speech to students on the evils of drug use, then another in October 1991 that urged students to study hard and stay away from drugs.
House Democrats criticized Bush for the 1991 speech and accused the U.S. Department of Education of providing free political advertising to Bush, who was gearing up for his re-election bid the following year.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/sfl-obama-speech-b090809,0,3293113.story
I fully support every president speaking often to the children of today’s public and private schools. However, it’s odd that he would emphasize personal responsibility, when all of his and his administration’s actions so far have exempted people for responsibility for their actions: mortgage meltdown after being encouraged to buy what they could not afford, takeover of US Auto companies, make work projects (shovel-ready projects in the Porkulus Bill), etc., etc.
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Nzakanzaka
September 8th, 2009
2:15 pm
Amy White, you seem to have misread the postings by “Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012″. He/she is doing an amateurish Stephen Colbert neocon rant. I believe he/she is debunking the right-wing fixation with Obama. Don’t waste your time being too serious with life. That’s the same advice i have for all those who have refused to deal with the fact that Barack Obama won a clear mandate from Americans to be their president. Losing an election should not be reason to wish death on the winner. Democracy is not limited to when we win. The woman who was whimpering on TV about the prospect of Obama speaking to her children is at the height of loathsome fear and hysteria. Only inexplicable hatred could have caused such a torment.
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Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012
September 8th, 2009
2:15 pm
Swami Dave – You are a pinko commie. Obama was not even born here, he can’t prove it at all. Where is the placenta? Where is the stained sheet from his conception? There is no cervical or umbillical blood presented as evidence. These minor things are all we need to clear this up. Obama could end this immediately, instead he shames us.
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Zion
September 8th, 2009
2:25 pm
Let the right continue with their ignorance, it will lead to their extinction. Then, real Republicans like myself will return the party to sanity and ideas.
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CrazyJoe
September 8th, 2009
2:31 pm
I kinda LIKE the crazies in the republican party — just as much as I like the crazies in the democratic party. I’m hoping Americans will finally wake up and form a viable THIRD party — this madness has gone on long enough. Birthers, truthers, etc.; are all just a bunch of crazies who are on the fringe of their respective parties; the real power comes from the people in the middle.
We in the MIDDLE need to unite and form our OWN party; these other two have proven time and time again that they can’t be trusted with American values, money, expertise and management. Our past president lied, cheated, used cronyism and let loose a sadistic madman on the country; and our current one seems to think he has to pander to the crazies that just left! It’s time for a DIFFERENT party — one that really holds America’s PEOPLE’s interest; and NOT the corporations.
Vote Independent.
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theawake1
September 8th, 2009
2:33 pm
The fact that people do not want to hear Obama speaking to push students to be the best they can be shows how far down this country has gone. The media has turned a speech meant to inspire into something inane. Why is this even being discussed so heavily? I think we all know why. This country is being controlled by fear. The media tries to keep up fearful everyday. People are letting their fears control them into not thinking and being ignorant. Once you open your mind to realize this you can start seeing things in our country for what they are and are becoming.
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TexasGuy
September 8th, 2009
3:03 pm
Obama is the best thing since sliced bread! He is doing a great job to try and clean up the mess from Bush and his Oil Fancy! GO OBAMA GO
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Amy White
September 8th, 2009
3:05 pm
From a Principal: …The message behind his speech is all- purpose for children, but it does focus a little more on kids that may not have it easy, kids that will have to push through a lot, to even attend school, let alone learn. The crazy people who are protesting, at least some of them, won’t like that the speech focuses on the underprivileged, lest they be too inspired, and become too “uppity’…I do believe racism is behind it all… I rarely feel things this way, but in my gut, I think the thoughts behind all of this controversy are really very primitive.
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Vincenzo35
September 8th, 2009
3:10 pm
The Kenyan Pres speech to the kids turned out quite well. But, let’s get real. It got that way because of the objections raised by conservatives over the associated lesson plan which encouraged children to explore and develop ways to help the pres accomplish his objectives. Had it not been for the hue and cry over the lesson plan, I am convinced that this pres would have presented a vastly different and very parochial speech.
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Amy White
September 8th, 2009
3:23 pm
” Listen my children and you shall hear “…
For those of you fortunate enough to learn, through hearing, the message is clear, put aside your ignorance and either educate or allow yourself to be educated.
Education is the basis upon which you will better yourself and brighten your future and the future of both this country and possibly this world.
Open the doors within your mind,
the more you learn, the more you will want to learn.
Your potential is unlimited, ignorance is self destructive, parents, encourage and stimulate their minds,the future needs and depends on this.
No need to approve of the messenger,
It’s the message that’s important.
” Logically Speaking “.
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catlady
September 8th, 2009
3:33 pm
I guess some of you have real problems with the WW2 vets speaking to “your children” on Veteran’s Day, or the local Baptist preacher speaking, or the police chief speaking on Career Day, right? Or is it only when Obama speaks?
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Bubba Smith
September 8th, 2009
3:37 pm
Keep the President away from our children.
Bring back segregation in schools.
Make Jesus compulsory.
Teach creationism.
Your nation is pathetic.
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KZGuy
September 8th, 2009
3:40 pm
Jeb Bush !! Did you say Jeb Bush ? It will be a cold day in GOP land before another Bush is elected anything. He has less of a chance than that retard Palin.
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concernedcitizen
September 8th, 2009
3:45 pm
Although to most I may seem like just a tiny, insignificant citizen of this nation, lacking the esteemed political knowledge of most of you who are posting here, but it is very concerning to me as to why many are choosing to not to face such an obvious question we should all ask ourselves: Why is it that so many are living in fear of the direction our Pres is taking us? Again, I may be naiive, but I just can’t remember when there was a time that so many citizens were afraid for our future because of one man. Yes, there has always been Rep and Dem, with undoubted distaste for the victor of the presidency, in every election that I can recall. However, if our Pres invokes fear in so many citizens of this country, then maybe those of you supporting him should ask yourselves “WHY?” Where there’s smoke, there is almost always “FIRE!”
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jconservative
September 8th, 2009
4:06 pm
Davo September 8th, 2009 11:52 am
“Kyle please do us the favor of seperating the terms ‘republican’ and ‘conservative’ as they ceased to become synonomous since before Reagan.”
This is correct in my opinion. If you look at every Republican president since Eisenhower all you are see are liberals dressed in Republican clothes. This is why we have a liberal country. We have not had a Conservative president in 50 years.
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Michael H. Smith
September 8th, 2009
4:09 pm
To the jerk(probably from New Yuck in Nationwide’s Lilburn barrio)
Clown voice you New York illiterate that was no surrender. It was a dismissal of you.
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew your aching ego!
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Otto
September 8th, 2009
4:13 pm
Yes we are tired of both parties. The last president was bad and this one is worse. It has been a downward trend for atleast 30 years.
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Michael H. Smith
September 8th, 2009
4:22 pm
I agree Kyle this was one very, very, dumb move on the part of any Republicans or Conservatives (non-republicans) who got involved in this foolish non-sense of trying to make an issue out of Obama speaking to school kids. It was an idiot’s battle just begging for a defeat.
Wise up guys.
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Jim's a Cherry Picker
September 8th, 2009
4:50 pm
Hi Kyle,
Nice to see your blog open.
Yeah, the GOP really put foot in mouth on this one. Kudos to your assessment…in general I’d addribute the origins of behviour like this to your buddy Newt and his application of “The Art of War” to American National politics. Nice book, if you’re actually fighting a war.
Basically what it says is that negotiating is for losers…if you want to win a war, there is no room for debate. For debating one’s opponent is tantamount to lending him credibility. What you really want to do is marginalize him, then destroy him, then destroy his family.
Unfortunately, our system of governance really needs debate. But the cat’s out of the bag. No looking back…there’s no reason to debate healthcare because death panels are just a non-starter in my book.
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saywhat?
September 8th, 2009
5:03 pm
Funny how the same people protesting the President of the United States giving a speech telling kids to work hard in school, have no problem with a semi-literate professional athlete doing the same thing.
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Swami Dave
September 8th, 2009
5:05 pm
Bush / Cheney 2012: Thanks for proving my point.
Black Like Me: I’d be more than willing to take my chances with O’Reily. *smile*
American Gal: I can only present the facts as they are; namely, -my- contention with PrezBO is his philosophy and policies which are (at foundation) wrong and (by historical measurement) an abject failure in every nation at every time that they have been tried. Personally, I care little about his race, but accept that reality that you may or may not choose to believe it.
In the end, I will save myself the time of attempting to make up race-based lists of candidates whom I might support as supposed evidence that I hold no racial bias. Realistically, you already hold a preconcieved notion and there is nothing that I can do to dissuade you of it. I’ll save you the insult and will not even try. You will just have to accept or reject it of your own accord.
-SD
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Azazel
September 8th, 2009
5:13 pm
Read your Chomsky and Howard Zinn
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Sherl
September 8th, 2009
5:16 pm
I have to admit I was stupid enough to let my children who were 6 and 10 listen to Reagan even though we are Democrats, we even went to Bush’s inauguration in 2001. I am advising my children that they should never let my grandchildren listen to a Rep. After all they would probably be trying to brainwash them. I want to thank the Republicans for teaching me such a valuable lesson.
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TnGelding
September 8th, 2009
5:35 pm
You’re right and it needs to stop on both sides. The GOP is risking losing credibility.
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OK
September 8th, 2009
5:57 pm
The far right extremists who have hijacked the once rational GOP needed NO help from President Obama or anyone else in making themselves look like total fools. Of course this was not the first time they did that, nor will it be the last. In fact, I look forward to a whole lot of stupid coming out of the Republican party. Which is sad. I used to vote Republican till the Christian Coalition took over.
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Gert Clemons
September 8th, 2009
6:47 pm
It’s a sad day for this country when the President can’t speak to the children about studyung hard and staying in school. It seems like maybe some of the parents need to be the ones going back to school. If a 15-minute speech can corrupt your child’s mind, than you have failed your own child. You, my friend, need ti giti jail.
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@@
September 8th, 2009
7:13 pm
Kyle, I have to wonder just how many people were actually opposed. I remain highly suspicious of the media’s “slobbering love affair” with Obama.
With the homework assignment cast aside, I had no problem with Obama addressing schoolchildren. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…it’s Obama’s timing. The protest over the school video falls on the heals of all that you mentioned:
Now Obama is president, and pushing plenty of issues for conservatives to oppose legitimately, among them government-run health care, cap and trade, and a tax-and-spend government on a scale which we haven’t seen in decades.
Those, the most recent incident of his Green Czar, government owned banks and auto giants has a cumulative effect on the American psyche. It wasn’t JUST the student address.
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Class of '98
September 8th, 2009
7:25 pm
Obama’s speech included a curriculum in which students were to answer the questions, “how will President Obama inspire me today”, and “how can I help President Obama”.
THAT is what conservatives resisted. The MSM portrayed this as a quick “message from the President” merely intended to inspire children to stay in school.
It was much more than that. It was indoctrination in the cult of personality of “our dear leader” Obama.
I’m disappointed that neither Boortz nor Wingfield are gutsy enough to acknowledge this.
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cwilli
September 8th, 2009
8:21 pm
Amy White thank you for your input, I see here we have a lot of closed minded people blogging. The subject of todays speech was to our children. Education is the key for our childrens future, but you have some who don’t have a brain between their ears. That was the most eloquent speech, I can’t remember not one president ever having to get permission to speak to our children and when they did it could not touch President O’bama’a speech. I find the remarks made concerning his speech were from followers who have to be guided if your were to ask some of these people who didn’t want their children to hear they can’t give you a legitmate reason why. No child left behind well guess what those who didn’t let their children hear the speech just got let behind.
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DebbieDoRight
September 8th, 2009
8:23 pm
What did you graduate from in ‘98? Hair Dresser’s School?
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Michael Honohan
September 8th, 2009
8:50 pm
I do not support much in the way of the Democrats or leftist politics. However, the idiocy of the Replicans is unfathomable. Tax cut for the weathly? Maybe back in 1960 when most of them were good Americans who would invest in America. Now they put in off shore account and foriegn investments.
As to the Obama speach, this must be a misprint. Kyle can’t possible be so stupid as to go along with Boortz’ nutty theory that his speech was an old switcharoo to further his “agenda” in the future”. Right now about the only sane voice in Conservative America is Joe Scarborough. We need more like him. (Although George Will has been coming to his senses as Thomas Sewell slips into full blown dimentia). Boortz, Limbaugh, Hannity, and Beck are leading the Right into the abyss of ignorance and stupidity. Now who will save us from Pelosi and Reid?
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Michael Honohan
September 8th, 2009
8:57 pm
CrazyJoe: You are not alone. Every election I tell everyone I meet “Vote for the third party candidate of your choice.” Right now the total of Democrats and Republicans combined add up to less than half of the number of eligible voters in this nation. We need to turn most of the Republicrats out. Note in the health care debate, both parties are full of people more interested in “saving” the insurance companies. Now the Democrats want fine people who not purchase insurance! We will never get reform.
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Michael Honohan
September 8th, 2009
9:08 pm
Swami Dave: Get a brain. Obama may be a liberal. He is a Democrat, but a socialist or communist? This guy who gave billions to banks and Wall Street with virtually no strings attached? To the guy doing everything he can to placate the insurance industry on health care?
Here is how you get get your brain wired properly. Instead of just making things up, or getting your cues from radio disk jockeys, find an actual Socialist and ask him what he thinks of Obama. You will find the Obama is batting a complete zero on the actual socialist agenda. Maybe if you found out what Socialist actually believe (or what the word means) you might be able to come off sounding intelligent. You can start here at a CONSERVATIVE website: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28645
Or would doing real research hurt your head?
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Maniac
September 8th, 2009
9:09 pm
Rachel, you must have never heard Air America or democratic underground or media matters. Those people are real idiots.
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David Axelfraud
September 8th, 2009
9:17 pm
Cynthia Tucker is a communist pig.
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David Axelfraud
September 8th, 2009
9:20 pm
Obama is going to make ANOTHER speech tomorrow to congress. Cynthia Tucker advises Obama to ignore the people and pass socialist health care. All while the AJC losses more readers and tanks. Nice.
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David Axelfraud
September 8th, 2009
9:21 pm
Hello Satan.
Obama to seal US-UN relationship
Barack Obama will cement the new co-operative relationship between the US and the United Nations this month when he becomes the first American president to chair its 15-member Security Council.
The topic for the summit-level session of the council on September 24 is nuclear non-proliferation and nuclear disarmament – one of several global challenges that the US now wants to see addressed at a multinational level.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7d0c7a3a-9ca4-11de-ab58-00144feabdc0.html
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David Axelfraud
September 8th, 2009
9:23 pm
Obama Husseins approval rating will hit 40% after tomorrows teleprompter speech to congress.
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David Axelfraud
September 8th, 2009
9:25 pm
Thanks a lot President Obamaallah,
A year after financial crisis, the consumer economy is dead
WASHINGTON — One year after the near collapse of the global financial system, this much is clear: The financial world as we knew it is over, and something new is rising from its ashes.
Historians will look to September 2008 as a watershed for the U.S. economy.
On Sept. 7, the government seized mortgage titans Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Eight days later, investment bank Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy, sparking a global financial panic that threatened to topple blue-chip financial institutions around the world. In the several months that followed, governments from Washington to Beijing responded with unprecedented intervention into financial markets and across their economies, seeking to stop the wreckage and stem the damage.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/75016.html
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Elephant Whip
September 8th, 2009
9:35 pm
Those of you who restrained your children from watching some cheezy ed speech by Obama are pathetic. Do you keep your kids from watching reality TV? Cable? Commercials? If you are such advocates for “conservative values,” you should be far more concerned about your kids watching prime time TV, even on your beloved FOX. It’s trash.
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Elephant Whips her mom
September 8th, 2009
9:40 pm
Fox is trash? As opposed to what, CNN, PMSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC and PBS? Yeah, those dinosaurs are all but extinct. I keep my kids away from trash like yourself.
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Elephant Whips her mom
September 8th, 2009
9:44 pm
“Here we go again. Average Americans practice their First Amendment free speech rights to protest another outrageous liberal proposal, and the media immediately go into full-on attack mode – against the American people for practicing their First Amendment free speech rights.
“Parents are placing themselves between their children and a chilling Obama Administration ‘lesson plan,’ and the media respond by calling them racists and insane psychopaths. The liberal media are more interested in assailing parents and continuing to cultivate Obama’s cult of personality than they are in reporting the truth.
“You would think that at some point the media would make the connection between their attacking their prospective viewers and their perpetually imploding ratings.”
“Just as with the tea party protesters, and the socialized health care town hall protesters, the media are again attacking the American people for having the temerity to speak up. How dare they.”
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Elephant Whips her mom
September 8th, 2009
9:46 pm
CNN poll on health care
Are you happy with your health insurance coverage?
Yes 60%
No 34%
Haven’t had to use it 6%
Something, I don’t know, tells me that Obama and the democrats have committed political suicide.
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Dr. R
September 8th, 2009
9:55 pm
Welcome to reality, Kyle. It’s been this way for awhile on both sides, as you well note. It is why so many people have been put off by our two parties. I’m a former Republican who had my fill during the Bush years when the Congress I helped elect spent money like a chimp with a Visa card, including a huge new Medicare drug entitlement that went way too far and cost too much. The folks out there who say there is barely a scintilla of difference between the parites, that they all are beholden to their own interests and only care about buying votes, are growing in number by the day. We likely won’t ever have a third party option, but at least we can hope to take one of them back one day.
By the way, you write a real good column and I enjoy your perspective. I don’t think anyone would accuse you of being a GOP lapdog like the idiots we hear on the radio. Keep up the good work.
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JC Smith
September 8th, 2009
10:17 pm
This all would be just the right fodder for 4-5 SNL skits, but unfortunately, it’s too sad. All you undereducated individuals (parents and “school leaders”) who are advocating getting rid of the federal and state government and castigating the President about talking to kids (yup – that’s right, better look up “castigating” in the dictionary, get a clue. Who do you think is protecting our safety around the world, in all those military outfits? Who do you think is patrolling the highways of the U.S. trying to keep some semblance of law and order? Who do you think is working in ERs, in classrooms, and in fire stations poised to help us at a minutes’ notice – that’s right – they’re federal, state, and local government workers! Are you all nuts? Did you not learn anything in school? Are you so intent in staying ignorant and perpetuating the ignorance in future generations that you can’t stand the prospect of the Pres. of the US speaking to school kids and urging them to study and get smart. Hopefully, your misguided “outrage” will not prevent them from using their own brains to figure out their ignorant, racially prejudiced, fear-mongering parents. Great job, conservatives – you’re lining up recruits by the millions!
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teacher in Alaska
September 8th, 2009
10:19 pm
I find it all so sad that I as an educator cannot determine what is educationally beneficial to students. Showing the speech where our President speaks to students about why it is important to step up and become a good student can only help students understand they are in charge of their own learning. I heard nothing about being a Democrat or a Republican. Apparently some parents live in fear of their own children being able to think for themselves.
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Knucklehead McSpazatron
September 8th, 2009
10:22 pm
As far as I’m concerned these badass kids need a pep-talk. I find it strangely ironic that white people are having a problem with Obama giving encouragement to all American children to stay in school but if he had only talked to the black kids he and the hispanics would be complaining about not being included and their kids are dropping out just like black kids. Why the hell are you upset at Obama when he’s the one who’s trying to fix everything if anything you should be pissed at Bush he’s the one who messed everything up. You’ll let your kids hear Bush speak but you don’t want Obama even shown to your kids, your racist S.O.Bs. Tea Party my ass, the name should be changed to Lynch Mob. Excuse my profanity but all of this unnecessary unfounded evil-hearted hypocracy disgusts me to the core.
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JDW
September 8th, 2009
10:22 pm
Well Kyle, I must say that I agree with most of what you had to say in this piece. I hope that you will use this space more wisely that your predecessor. I will say that lumping Conservatives and Repugnicans into the same category is a bit misleading. It has been some time since the GOP has been conservative.
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Dr. R
September 8th, 2009
10:28 pm
Not to give the bleating ninnies a pass on their overreaction to this, but the White House deserves blame for spinning it so badly to begin with. After a summer of anger and division, they should have been more in tune to how their “help the president” lesson might be viewed elsewhere. But alas, this White House, like the one before, only hears what its supporters tell them, which is why they remain in denial over how much support their agenda really has. Just dumb. When there’s already blood in the water, you shouldn’t go cut yourself and give the sharks something to kick off the frenzy. I recall Clinton hiring David Gergen and Dick Morris, both Republican operatives, to help him craft his message for someone other than his inner circle of aging hippies. Obama needs the same, a smart conservative — a George Will type — who can help him understand what half the country is thinking so they don’t continue to step on their toes. Either way, he needs to ream his communications staff for their dumb moves ‘cuz they suck right now. We have a smart president whose people are making him look dumb.
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Chris Salzmann
September 8th, 2009
10:35 pm
David Axelfraud September 8th, 2009 9:17 pm SAID: Cynthia Tucker is a communist pig.
CHRIS SAYS: Wow, such deep analysis. He must have looked in the mirror before chiming about Cynthia. She’s got more brains in her little pinky than you can “boast” from your entire ancestral lineage put together.
David Axelfraud September 8th, 2009 9:20 pm SAID: Obama is going to make ANOTHER speech tomorrow to congress. Cynthia Tucker advises Obama to ignore the people and pass socialist health care.
CHRIS SAYS: Actually, a very large majority of people want reform and a smaller majority of people want “socialist” health care. Heck, for idiots like you, even Germany and Switzerland have “socialist” systems (WRONG), but why argue the point with an idiot like yourself? Go back to whatever you’re snorting and continue living in your own blissful ignorance.
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Michael H. Smith
September 8th, 2009
10:49 pm
The latest Gallop Poll finds 39% of Americans saying they would direct their member of Congress to vote against a healthcare reform bill this fall while 37% want their member to vote in favor.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/122822/Americans-Sharply-Divided-Healthcare-Reform.aspx
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Gator Nation
September 8th, 2009
11:22 pm
Well said Kyle.
From a centrist democrat.
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Chris Salzmann
September 8th, 2009
11:26 pm
Actually Michael, the key quote from poll you mentioned was “The public is as divided over healthcare reform today as at the beginning of August (37% in favor and 39% opposed), with a large segment STILL UNDECIDED”. Also, its within the error margin +-4%
Bottom line is that the Democrats have the votes in Congress and the Senate, using the simple majority rule. Bush used the same simple majority to pass prescription care. Health care reform will pass. The only question is, will it pass with a Public Option or not, for those who are uninsured or under-insured.
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Chris Salzmann
September 8th, 2009
11:32 pm
Came across another poll from Gallup. This says that OECD countries give high marks to their Universal Health Care systems and most importantly, HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THEIR NATIONAL HEALTCARE OR MEDICAL SYSTEMS (the US got VERY low scores in that one).
http://www.gallup.com/poll/122393/OECD-Countries-Universal-Healthcare-Gets-High-Marks.aspx
And the Right-Wing keeps telling us that all these folks want to have the “great” American health care system??? LMAO
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Michael H. Smith
September 8th, 2009
11:37 pm
Chris, I can read. I know what the poll said and the poll is the poll, whether you like it or not.
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Michael H. Smith
September 8th, 2009
11:44 pm
Do you remember the events that took place after H.W. Bush gave a speech to school children, Kyle?
It will be interesting to see if the Washington Post excoriates Obama tomorrow. One thing for sure, there will not be a waste of taxpayer money on a Congressional investigate of Obama.
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Gerald West
September 9th, 2009
6:39 am
Kyle, you’re beginning to see the light! The Republican party has marginalized itself to the old Dixiecrats. Their leaders are hypocritical, mealy-mouth alarmists, and their supporters are greedy, empty-headed, racists trying to cling to an inglorious past rather than face a changing world.
The Democrats are only marginally better because their party is inclusive enough to attract a few intelligent and sincere politicians.
Why don’t you join the many Americans who are independent of both political parties, demanding of appropriate changes to keep up with the times, and intolerant of partisan silliness?
Turn the tables on the newspaper that hired you as their token “conservative”! Be all that you can be, not a Limbaugh/Palin parrot!
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chunkypuddin'
September 9th, 2009
7:17 am
I caint wate ontil thers a nother repblikan presnident so I can keap mi six kids at home an than the’ll gruow up to bee a Prensident just lyke Georje Bush!
Keepe NObamuKKKare out of miy Bedrume!
Palun/Georje Bush 20012!
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Mac
September 9th, 2009
7:45 am
Kyle “Right” Wingfield wrote: “Opposing the Iraq war or the privatization of Social Security isn’t enough; you have to cast George Bush as the tee-totally evil second coming of Hitler, too.”
I think they cast Cheney as Hitler and Bush as Mussolini, the clownish dolt.
But, I think you make great points. My opinion is both parties have engaged in war since the Clinton presidency that has damaged the nation. The last time the parties behaved honorably was during the Reagan and part of the H.W. Bush administration.
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to jeb/bush
September 9th, 2009
7:49 am
wake up all you Christian right wings and read the ignorant
and dangerous crap you have spawned from this pitiful excuse
of a human being. Obama will show his birth certificate
if Palin shows her high school diploma, YOU BETCHA!!
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sharon
September 9th, 2009
7:55 am
Were “you people” afraid President Obama was going to say “Black people rule or kill whitey” in his speech to the children?. This was so ridiculous!
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oldmac
September 9th, 2009
8:02 am
Oh, I don’t know, the stuff leading up to the speech sort of served it’s purpose around my house. I had a opportunity to instruct my kids on what the president was probably gonna say, what he actually said and what he would have probably really liked to have said. Will be completely forgotten by the weekend (if not sooner) but I never like to miss a “teachable” moment.
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Bob from Dahlonega
September 9th, 2009
8:05 am
I dont have a problem with the president or anyone telling kids to stay in school and to work hard. I am for affordable health care fpr all.
What I am opposed to is the color of the current “president”, I will not have one of them tell me anything
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DontTreadOnMe
September 9th, 2009
8:07 am
One if by land.
Two if by sea.
Three if by government…
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V. Powell
September 9th, 2009
8:10 am
I would guarantee that if Obama gave the same speach to the rest of the world, excluding the US, there would be 2 million people waiting in anticipation of his message. It is hard for the people who hate the US and its President.
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Kimberly Hanson
September 9th, 2009
8:19 am
You know I would comments on all these blogs, but after thinking about it, I changed my mind. It’s unfortunate, that we possess so much PREJUDICE that we are closed mind to getting our children educated.
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Mister Earl
September 9th, 2009
8:19 am
The parents squabble, based in Fox News hysteria over ignorance. Meanwhile, school peers facebook and twitter their multi-ethnic friends about how stupid the over 40 generation is for random suspicion over a speech about achieving your personal goals through education.
The message of the parents is tuned out as the new voters in 2012 judge based on shared intelligent, not television or AM radio ratings.
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Bob from Dahlonega
September 9th, 2009
8:21 am
I would guarantee that if Obama gave the same speach to the rest of the world, excluding the US, there would be 2 million people waiting in anticipation of his message. It is hard for the people who hate the US and its President.
I dont hate the us or the president in general. I hate the race of this current president. He is trying to steal my birthright as a whiteman, by trying to make everyone else equal, and thats not the way america was intended to be….this is a WHITE CHRISTIAN MALE COUNTRY!!! If you do not like it leave
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Liza
September 9th, 2009
8:33 am
I was raised to love and respect all. God did make us all.
I was raised to respect authority.
I was raised to appreciate that we have freedoms in this country.
I applaud our President for who he is, where he is, and what is is trying to do.
I would not want his job. It is not like he walked into this job with a clean slate to work with.
Give him the chance to work with what he has been handed. Give him the respect that a president should have.
Be positive and peaceful……Love all.
You may not agree, but you need to have grace, mercy, understanding, patience, love……
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Bob from Dahlonega
September 9th, 2009
8:40 am
My Great great grandaddy owned slaves that birthright was taken from the other men in my family by liberals. and now one is leading us.
I cannot beleive we are giving our country away to those who do not deserve it.
America is Imploding
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Swami Dave
September 9th, 2009
8:47 am
Michael Honohan:
“This guy who gave billions to banks and Wall Street with virtually no strings attached? To the guy doing everything he can to placate the insurance industry on health care?”
a) I opposed the Stima-Spendulous bill as well as the bail outs, but……
b) It is patently dishonest to make the assertion that the money was given “without strings attached” when we now have “Executive Pay” czars (who have never been exectutives and know nothing about how to be one) or “Auto Industry” czars (who have neither experience in the auto industry nor any experience that would qualify them as a decision-maker in any private enterprise) and other constraints on the businesses who accepted the bailouts, but…..
c) Government interventionism is a usual outcome when an individual or organization becomes dependent upon bureaucrats and politicians which is the key reason that America needs more freedom, opportunity, and achievement as the basis of our country; not the insidious spread of dependency and redistribution.
As for my understanding of socialism, communism, liberalism, and any of the other philosophies of economic control that are -ALL- outcroppings from their common ancestor, collectivism, understanding and knowledge are not a problem. I know what you are – a supporter of a political theology that attempts to do with legislation what more common thieves do with guns. That would be steal that which was earned or owned by others for your own ends (namely: acquire political power by buying votes using confiscated money).
Thanks for playing!
-SD
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JF McNamara
September 9th, 2009
8:49 am
“government-run health care” should be health care system reform with an insurance option. Government employees won’t actually administer care.
Were leading Republicans feeding into this? I always assumed it was the radio and TV talking heads trying to grab ratings, but I refrain from watching or listening to political media so I don’t know.
Either way, you’re right on this one. It never should’ve been an issue, and it really turns off moderates.
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
8:59 am
Chris Salzmann suffers from the short bus syndrome. Chris Salzmann is a high school drop out and is unable to comprehend competent everyday sentences. Chris Salzmann is in serious need of medical attention.
Bottom line: Chris Salzmann needs to move out of her moms trailer park and get a real job and a real life.
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
9:01 am
to jeb/bush wrote:
wake up all you Christian right wings and read the ignorant
and dangerous crap you have spawned from this pitiful excuse
of a human being. Obama will show his birth certificate
if Palin shows her high school diploma, YOU BETCHA!!
That didn’t make any sense dumb a$$. Did you finish middle school?
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
9:03 am
Chris Salzmann can’t answer a simple question. Instead, Chris Salzmann demonizes other people due to her lack of a pen&^. Chris Salzmann is a sad 300 lb whale. So sad……..
If Americans want government health care then why won’t the democrats pass it?
The democrats are in charge and they can’t agree on their own so-called policies.
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
9:04 am
This isn’t exactly a FOX NEWS poll now is it?
CNN poll on health care
Are you happy with your health insurance coverage?
Yes 60%
No 34%
Haven’t had to use it 6%
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GaNative
September 9th, 2009
9:09 am
White folks showed their color on this one, didn’t they? They got snookered into making an azz out of themselves by the likes of Hannity. How can any sane person not realize that other presidents spoke to kids? What’s the difference in other Presidents and this one besides his color? Therein lies the problem.
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kwingfield
September 9th, 2009
9:25 am
Class of ‘98: I mentioned the part about the lesson plan, which I also found objectionable. As for the “cult of personality”…if a speech to schoolchildren were unprecedented, maybe. But I just don’t think this rises to that level.
Michael Honohan: I didn’t read the Boortz column to mean that this was a planned “switcheroo” all along. What I thought he said, and what I agree with, is that Obama’s critics gave him an opportunity to make them look stupid when they complained about a speech before it had been delivered. It makes them look like they oppose Obama personally rather than his policies, which is not a very smart thing to do given that Obama remains personally popular (in spite of his policies, imo). Eventually, that will take away credibility that Republicans and conservatives have fought hard to regain over the past months — and I do lump conservatives and the GOP together in this case, since some (not all) people from both groups were voicing the criticism.
And everyone, thanks for just ignoring Bob from Dahlonega…
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kwingfield
September 9th, 2009
9:27 am
Btw, I would argue that those people who simplistically chalk up this story, or any loud opposition to Obama or his policies, to race are making the same mistake that the speech protesters did — namely, turning off more people than they attract.
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Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012
September 9th, 2009
9:38 am
David Axelfraud – You will be first in line for Kenyan President Hussien’s death panels. This is the first step in Al Queda’s plan to dismember us from within. We have foolishly elected a muslim communist born in africa. He can’t even show us his placenta or cord blood. What a fraud. Jeb Bush will restore honor to America. Jeb is even smarter than George, come on Republicans, now it’s Jeb’s time. Lez Cheney and Sarah Palin will work closely together. Thats hot!
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dewstarpath
September 9th, 2009
9:43 am
- Bubba Smith –
Keep racists like you away from government.
Bring back integration in schools.
Make objectivity compulsory.
Teach critical thinking.
Your alternate-reality nation is pathetic.
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dewstarpath
September 9th, 2009
9:45 am
- David Axelfraud –
STOP SMOKING WEED.
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dewstarpath
September 9th, 2009
9:47 am
- Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012 –
STOP SMOKING CRACK.
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to fool from Dahlonega
September 9th, 2009
9:51 am
Same old racism and hate. All you need is a cross
to burn and a white sheet.
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
10:04 am
dewstarpath, get your 400lb belly off the couch and get a real job.
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
10:05 am
kwingfield, playing the race card is all the liberals have left. They are losing on every issue and have resorted to calling white people racist. Morons.
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Linda T.
September 9th, 2009
10:18 am
Agreed up to a point, Mr. Wingfield. This is what I noticed in Boortz’s piece –
*So Obama’s speechwriters took their cue from the right and made the speech essentially bulletproof from the get-go.*
Conservatives should have sat back and let Obama be Obama — had we done that he would have shot himself in the foot. He saw us coming and outflanked us. Until we can see the whites of their eyes, we conservatives should keep our powder dry.
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marie
September 9th, 2009
10:21 am
What is the right afraid of? Do they fore see a drastic lowering of the voting age to middle school students to rush them to the polls in 2012 to vote for Obama? Older students have probably already been oriented to one of the political parties due to their parents’ philosiphies.
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Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney 2012
September 9th, 2009
11:20 am
Linda T. – Glenn Beck is demanding the original transcript of the speech. Apparently it is written in Hussien’s mother toungue, Swahili, and denounces all true americans as racists and crazy. Glenn also said that it proves that crazy obama wants to steal money from the wealthy (taxes)and give it to stupid, lazy, poor prople (health care). Sean Hannity will be on the broadcast tonight to discuss why we need more tax cuts for the wealthy! Finally someone can show that every penny given to these stupid lazy union workers at GM or Chrysler is one less perrny for our courageous hard working Wall Street executives. Everyone knows they only build a half way decent car when lead by their German or Japanese masters.
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Karl Marx
September 9th, 2009
12:33 pm
The kenyan could care less about citizens in this country without insurance. The fed has taken over Wall Street. The fed has taken over banking. The fed has taken over the auto industry. The fed naturally controls the huge government bureaucracy. What is left? What is the only major industry left? Health care and pharma is all that is left in this country. When the kenyan gets that, we will be a completely socialist country. It’s not about the people without insurance, it is about the fed having complete control of all citizens lives. And most people in this country have figured that out. It is all down hill for this administration from here.
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jconservative
September 9th, 2009
12:38 pm
My reading is that he will say the public option is the most efficient means of getting premium cost down but that he is not married to it.
Anything that works, “works” being defined as getting by both houses.
My problem with any bill is that the bill that passes will not be the end of the matter. Medicare was passed in 1965 & for the next 40 years
congress & all presidents kept expanding the service. Expanded the service but did nothing on expanding the funding. The result is Medicare going busted in 2019.
The best laid plans………
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Cutty
September 9th, 2009
1:10 pm
Why not just allow us to buy health insurance from BCBS of Florida? I’m sure their costs are a lot cheaper than BCBS of Georgia (nod*wink).
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Davo
September 9th, 2009
1:13 pm
I think he’ll do the latter as well, framed in a ’stand by your principles’ moment for the DNC. To do otherwise would be an admission to ‘the mob’ that they might actually have a point in their aversion to more govt control over our lives. That would be bad for the DNC and Obama’s agenda. I’m guessing that if they lose this fight then all blame will be placed at the feet of ‘conservatives’ (blue-dogs not included, of course) and this will serve as the 2010 rallying cry around the democrats; not all will be lost politically. Live to fight freedom another day.
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jt
September 9th, 2009
1:27 pm
I could try to post about something other than health care, but Metallica said it best: “Nothing else matters.”
Sorry dude, our kids are getting killed in southwest Asia. That matters a whole lot more.
And furthermore, Metalica sux. They just copy riffs and speed it up. And they sued their fans. They are just a fake band for a fake generation.
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oldtimer
September 9th, 2009
1:35 pm
I just don’t get why the DNC is so set on public health care. Even the Canadian Health minister said their system is imploding. How can we cut so much out of medicare and continue to give service to the elderly? Chian is beginning to ask questions about our debt. When is this going to stop??!!
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Cutty
September 9th, 2009
1:46 pm
Did legislators read the entire bill for the 2001 Bush tax cuts? Which were passed via reconciliation by the way.
Where is all the job creation from that Wingfield? Had tax cuts in 2001 and again in 2003 and by 2007 we were in a recession. How can one say that cutting taxes creates jobs after we’ve seen firsthand that it doesn’t? Please expound.
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Bo Chambliss LOBBYIST
September 9th, 2009
2:05 pm
Saxby & Johnny did not read the TARP bill before they voted for it. His mail was 1,000 to 1 against it but Saxby went with the Lobbyist not the taxpayers.
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Suave shampoo
September 9th, 2009
2:10 pm
Present voting President. Great line. Congrats.
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Say anything
September 9th, 2009
2:13 pm
With the Western Democracies teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, starvation and collapse, all due to their wildly unpopular, government-run, universal health-care bureaucracies, why would the President wish to doom our nation to failure by going down the same path?
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Daedalus
September 9th, 2009
2:15 pm
Obama will continue to be civil to Republicans and will get the usual in return, i,e., ‘he’s a terrorist, muslim, nazi, socialist, communist who was not born in the United States and is not really President and wants a death panel to kill grandma.’
Any health-care reform he proposes, even if it does not include a public option, will be pounced on by Republicans as socialist, communist, etc., and the hopeless dems will stare into the headlights and not get anything done.
Medical insurers can then return to big profits by rationing health care and the GOP can pat itself on the back for maintaining the status quo in favor of insurers over everybody else.
And the GOP can go back to branding Obama a ‘muslim terrorist, socialist, communist, etc., who was not born in the United States and is therefore illegitimate, etc.,…
Don’t worry GOPers, all is well.
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Elephant Whip
September 9th, 2009
3:38 pm
What the Democrats need to realize is that they are in a lose-lose situation now unless they pass a universal healthcare package that works. The only way it will work is if there is a public option or a threat of a public option if insurance companies will not cover everyone, including preexisting conditions. Otherwise, the voters will see them as wimps without backbones.
If the Democrats fail to pass anything substantial, all Democrats will lose. The irony is that the most paranoid Democrats, the Blue Dogs, are in the worst predicament. If they pass a lame bill, they will lose their liberal supporters. If they pass a “public option” bill, they will lose their more conservative supporters. Solution: vote your conscience and pray that it works. The only way to prevent healthcare reform from crippling the upcoming elections is to follow through with your original plan and show that it works. Delay and lack of commitment will reveal weakness and new or ‘blue dog’ seats will disappear.
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kwingfield
September 9th, 2009
3:57 pm
Cutty: First, no one government policy dictates job growth, or lack thereof. But from the jobs trough in July 2003 (i.e. less than two months after Bush signed the second tax cut into law) to the peak in December 2007, the private sector added 7.6 million jobs. My source is the Bureau of Labor Statistics. What’s yours?
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Cutty
September 9th, 2009
4:20 pm
Well from MY Bureau of Labor Stats, unemployment increased from 4.2% in January 2001 to 7.2% in December 2008. Considering population growth, that still represents a 4.6% decrease in employment during the Bush years. The number of unemployed was nearly 6.0 million in January 2001 and 6.9 million in September 2006. The unemployment rate was 4.2% in January 2001, 4.6% in September 2006, and 7.2% in December 2008.
http://www.bls.gov/schedule/archives/empsit_nr.htm
More fuzzy math from Republicans in my opinion. I would find some common ground in your comments if Republicans hadn’t ran away with the tax cuts= job creation mantra. That was their alternative to the ARRA correct?
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dewstarpath
September 9th, 2009
4:20 pm
- Doofus Axelfraud –
Thanks for proving my point.
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dewstarpath
September 9th, 2009
4:28 pm
- Jeb Bush / Lez Cheney –
You have a lot of opinion for someone who can’t spell “Hussein”
and listens to Glenn Beck. You and Axelfraulein deserve each other.
The wingnuts on these forums do more damage to American
prosperity, productivity, and education than ten “Housewives of Atlanta
(Duluth)” reality shows put together.
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kwingfield
September 9th, 2009
4:57 pm
Your endpoints are what I’d call fuzzy, starting before the 2001 recession began, dropping randomly in the middle of the expansion, and then ending a year after the current recession was under way.
And I doubt that any economist would argue that *any* tax policy — lowering rates, raising them or holding them steady — could have prevented a recession fueled by the housing market collapse and the resulting financial mess.
Again, there are lots of factors in any job-market growth or loss. But I’ll take my chances with incentives for companies to invest over transfer payments and pork-barrel spending, which made up almost two-thirds of the ARRA (a.k.a. the stimulus): http://seekingalpha.com/article/159355-the-non-stimulating-stimulus-bill
Unemployment is still on the rise, btw, despite the ARRA: http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/09/unemployment-update.html
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Ga Values
September 9th, 2009
4:57 pm
With Saxby is is always Lobbyist first and taxpayers last.
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
5:28 pm
dewstarpath, your point? I didn’t know that beached whales, like yourself, had a point. The only “damage” I’ve done is to adding insult to your 300 lb a$$.
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Jason Davis
September 9th, 2009
7:41 pm
John Oxendine and other Republicans need to wake up. More roads (or transit) don’t come without more taxes – federal, state and local. Wake up. We are broke. Where do you think most of the dollars for all our existing roads came from? It was the federal government. The federal debt is over $10 trillion and will be 80% of national GDP in 10 years. Will you raise the national gas tax? Georgia gas tax? A new statewide sales tax? Where does it end? We have other needs for tax dollars too. You are completely clueless. You cannot ask China for any more $. There is no money left to promise for anything. Forget military spending, social security and medicare, we need to raise taxes for roads. That sound bite sounds real fine.
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Hillbilly Deluxe
September 9th, 2009
8:31 pm
The $64 question is where? Generalities are one thing; specific routes are what bring opposition.
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Hillbilly Deluxe
September 9th, 2009
8:33 pm
Congress does pretty well with the old ways of shaming themselves. They don’t really need new ones.
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Chris Salzmann
September 9th, 2009
9:01 pm
oldtimer September 9th, 2009 1:35 pm SAID: I just don’t get why the DNC is so set on public health care. Even the Canadian Health minister said their system is imploding. How can we cut so much out of medicare and continue to give service to the elderly? Chian is beginning to ask questions about our debt. When is this going to stop??!!
CHRIS SAYS: And we aren’t getting a Canadian system. That’s one of the stupidest things I’ve heard here. The private health care industry will be around for a long time. BTW, countries like Switzerland, the Netherlands, Germany, etc all have universal health care and majority of coverage in all these countries is carried by private insurance companies.
Get a clue oldtimer.
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saul good
September 9th, 2009
9:32 pm
The truth is that “conservatives” (and I use that word lightly) in the South don’t like or want mass transit because they associate it with poor people, and those they consider to be lower class. Perhaps they should visit a place like Greenwich CT one weekday morning or evening and see the amount of multi millionaires getting on and off of Metro North. Yeah, it really suck being able to take a train and work on your laptop, read, etc. Atlanta will never be a truly world class city until it takes mass transit seriously. It’s not just for poor people. It’s for those that would rather use their time in a more relaxing and useful way as opposed to sitting stuck in traffic while polluting the planet (another issue republicans could care less about…guess it has something to do with their belief in the “rapture” coming at some point, yeah…keep waiting for that)…
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saul good
September 9th, 2009
9:36 pm
BTW…the only reason why our airport here is the busiest…. it’s because people change flights here on their way someplace else. The majority never even stay. Go figure… so just keep wanting to build roads as the solution. Must have something to do with having being the the worst of the worst when it comes to education. Those running the show in GA obviously attended it’s schools. (pssssst… it shows).
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
9:48 pm
Obama says that his plan will not raise the deficit. Obama is a liar.
Obama still has not said how the country will pay for his plan.
Obama still has not said where he will get the doctors and nurses to help cover 47 million people.
Obama is going to bankrupt the country.
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
9:49 pm
Chris Salzmann the buffoon writes: BTW, countries like Switzerland, the Netherlands, Germany, etc all have universal health care and majority of coverage in all these countries is carried by private insurance companies.
David Axelfraud says: GERMANY, THE NETHERLANDS AND SWITZERLAND DON’T HAVE THE AMOUNT OF DEBT AND PEOPLE THE UNITED STATES DOES.
BOTTOM LINE: Chris Salzmann IS A DUMB A$$!!!!!
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dawgmom
September 9th, 2009
9:54 pm
saul — if the transit in CT is so great, why don’t you move back? In our great city (and yes, I am a native) the areas of business are spread out from Downtown to Midtown to Perimeter to Northlake to Cobb, etc. We don’t have a population headed to one central location — as is the case with workers in CT going to NYC. Add to that the number of people with service-related jobs that go to multiple locations in one day and you are now comparing apples to oranges. While mass transit works in many scenarios, the general transportation needs of Metropolitan Atlanta do not support this solution. And to respond to your second post, get yourself on one of those planes going somewhere else — we really don’t need your negativity!
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
9:57 pm
Elephant Whip, you’re the first rational democrat voter that has painted a correct scenario of the current debacle that is the democrat party. Kudos to you.
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Obamalinksy
September 9th, 2009
9:57 pm
You Have to Destroy the Economy to Make the People Dependent on Government.
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
10:01 pm
Show your support for Joe Wilson! The guy is awesome. Anyone who calls Obama what he really is, A LIAR, is ok in my book!
Joe Wilson Contact ph#
202-225-2452 or 1-803-937-0041
And email him at http://www.joewilson.house.gov/
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
10:05 pm
K Wingfield, maybe you should be concerned about your comrade Cynthia Tucker. She just came out of the communist closet and has now sided with Communist China.
Bottom line: The AJC employs to commies, Cynthia Tucker and Jay Bookwoman.
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Lucas
September 9th, 2009
10:11 pm
I’d be pretty upset about Oxendine’s proposals to run a freeway through my house, except there’s no money to fund them, anyway. Barnes wants to run light rail on top of 75/85, which may be cheaper than the other proposals involving new land acquisitions. Of course, no funding for that, either.
Until they get down to dollars and cents, they’re all just blowing smoke.
Dawgmom, you’re only part right – a large population heads to a centralized location – downtown – every day. Hence the ever-expanding downtown connector.
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Elephant Whip
September 9th, 2009
10:18 pm
Not a democrat. Not a libertarian. An independent that leans democratic (and wishes the Republicans could live up to some of their espoused “values”).
Thanks for the kudos though!
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David Axelfraud
September 9th, 2009
10:23 pm
Elephant Whip, my mistake, but still, you lean democrat so I was not off by much. Your assessment was spot on with the current debacle for the democrats. I don’t think the blue dogs are in any more of a mess than the other dems. They are ALL in big trouble and people like Harry Reid, Chris Dodd and many more big time libs will probably end up losing their seats next November. I was watching Keith Olbermann rip on the Doctor who gave the GOP address after the speech. Olbermann, instead of debating what the guy said, went and demonized the guy by saying he had been sued in malpractice suits multiple times. I don’t know ONE doctor who has gone through his/her entire career without being sued. Doctors get and insurance companies get sued all the time. It;s THE biggest problem with high health care cost and doctors fleeing the field.
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Jason Davis
September 9th, 2009
11:13 pm
We are broke. All levels of government are leveraged. We have no more money for roads or transit. The economy will continue to slide for another two years. So you can be a dawgmom or techmom and you still are going to sit in your darn car in traffic for the rest of your life. Republicans and Democrats will have to raise taxes to do anything and it still will make little difference in the traffic. We have borrowed $10 trillion from China and others for years that dawgkids will not be able to pay back. Forget CT. They are more solvent than the vast majority of Georgians who did not attend college and dont have any more money for taxes or roads. I am a native too and pay taxes to the same governments that are broke and over committed. If everyone from another state moved back we would only be more broke.
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dave
September 9th, 2009
11:13 pm
I am a conservative, and even I know that there is a dire need for commuter and passenger rail. We can’t just keep building roads; paving over and building on every square inch of vacant land will cause a host of problems, not to mention more pollution and runoff problems. Bus rapid transit sounds good, to be sure, but long term costs outweigh the short term benefits. Trains don’t get flat tires, leave their transmissions in the middle of the road, and they don’t get stuck in traffic. People will ride passenger and commuter rail; the express buses are already full, and Amtrak operates with full trains. We stand to lose more by keeping our heads in the sand concerning transit and continuing to rely on roads. These anti-rail people will be the first ones screaming bloody murder when it takes them three hours to get from marietta to Atlanta on their 25-lane I-75.
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clueless
September 10th, 2009
1:09 am
Tunnels through granite east of Atlanta, northern arcs?? Oxendine either has no clue what these things cost the traveling public and tax payer or is ignoring them. The highways we have were built under a federal funding model with comparitively lax environmental laws.
Time to step aside and let adults run things in Georgia.
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VINNO JACOB
September 10th, 2009
2:03 am
I would guarantee that if Obama gave the same speach to the rest of the world, excluding the US, there would be 2 million people waiting in anticipation of his message. It is hard for the people who hate the US and its President.
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REALLY?
September 10th, 2009
4:15 am
A long time ago, in a universe far, far away, conservatives aspired to intellectualism. They were often wrong, mind you. But at least, they took time to educate themselves about the issues. No more.
Mr. Wingfield and Mr. Oxedine, who are merely playing at being conservative, have exposed their keening ignorance about transportation. To incorrectly and repeatedly claim that “conservatives” oppose mass transit — especially for the reasons they cite — demonstrate their intellectual vacuity and moral bankruptcy.
For the dying breed of thinking conservatives who are sincere in their conviction to improve transportation in the region and in the state, I encourage them to read the book “Moving Minds” by William S. Lind and the late Paul Weyrich. Both men, whose conservative credentials are legendary and unassailable, offer abundant empirical case for mass transit. (If you’re too busy to read the book, just Google their names. They’ve written plenty on the subject and represent the cutting edge of conservative thought.)
If Oxendine insists on pretending to be a “conservative” candidate for governor and Wingfield intends to keep posing as a “conservative” voice at the AJC, is it asking too much of them to base their misguided public mutterings on FACTS?
Probably.
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catlady
September 10th, 2009
6:49 am
Actually, Kyle most of the state does NOT put tranportation at the top of the list. I understand that metro Atlantans do (for good reason) but the majority of Georgians do NOT live in metro Atlanta!
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TarHeelBred bleeds TarHeelBlue
September 10th, 2009
7:15 am
I actually kinda like Oxendine’s strategy in getting people on the, especially on the right, to talk about the transportation issue by proposing something as seemingly far-fetched to moderates and liberals as bulldozing or tunneling under Intown Atlanta neighborhoods. Remember, Oxendine has to run hard to the right in the Republican Primary to distance himself from Perdue’s hand-picked successor, Karen Handel, and Nathan Deal, who has heavy support in Northeast Georgia, the area he serves in Congress. Because of economic disparity, there is a lot of anti-Atlanta bias in most of the rest of the state outside the metro area and proposing to bulldoze some of Atlanta’s most notorious hotbeds for leftist-liberalism and in the eyes of many outside I-285, elitist socialism, plays really, really well to a very conservative rural populace that struggles with high rates of poverty, under-education and unemployment even in a good overall economy.
After blowing away Handel and Deal in a gubernatorial Republican Primary in the “Reddest of Red States”, I expect Ox to move to somewhat more moderate political positions, especially on transportation. Though because Georgia is a solidly conservative state outside Metro Atlanta, Ox won’t really have to move that far left towards center so expect some degree of proposed statewide road building to be apart of any future transportation plans, especially in other parts of the state outside Atlanta’s metro core.
To avoid tax-increases and to minimize the cost to the tax-paying public, I would hope that Oxendine would pursue a policy utilizing user fees through bonds paid back through tolls and realistically-priced fares to finance any future large-scale transportation initatives. Existing transportation funding is at a premium and user fees in the way of tolls and fares could help to get a new road or transit built that wouldn’t get built through conventional or tradition means of funding through taxes. User fees could also help to operate and maintain those modes of transportation after they’re built.
Though some don’t like Oxendine’s plans for road-building, I don’t think that his road-building plans go far enough. While I’m not a big fan of a “parallel downtown connector” through or under East Atlanta neighborhoods, I do like the proposal for a West Georgia bypass of Metro Atlanta from south of Chattanooga to roughly north of Macon. I also like the proposal for a “Fall-Line Freeway” running from Columbus to Augusta by way of Macon, which I think is long overdue.
While I do think a “Northern Arc/Bypass” is a practical proposal, I don’t know if it would be politically viable in the end because of the somewhat pristine and highly-desirable real estate in the foothills and mountains of the Southern Appalachians that the proposed route would go thru. I suspect that the people up that way would fight like hell to the death against any renewed proposal for a northern bypass that would run even farther north from Atlanta.
While such roads are common in Texas where numerous TOLLED bypasses have been built outside of cities like Dallas and Houston in recent years and Florida where a heavy crush of tourists make toll roads very much viable, highly profitable and necessary, such roads have proven to be highly unpopular in the D.C. Suburbs of Northern Virginia and in North Georgia. A proposed “Outer Beltway” with bridges over the Potomac was pared down to a local parkway-type road with at-grade intersections thru the Western D.C. Suburbs of Northern Virginia. Who in Georgia could forget how the “Outer Perimeter” proposal was pared down to the “Northern Arc” before being axed altogether because of the high-value and the proximity of the residential real estate it was proposed to run through?
While I like most of Oxendine’s statewide road-building proposals other than the “Parallel Downtown Connector” and also like Barnes’ propensity to support mass transit, I think that a multimodal statewide plan that includes both roads and mass transit is the solution to Georgia’s transportation woes. I would most like to see a statewide system of toll roads and commuter rail to relieve congestion and spur additional international investment.
I wouldn’t mind copying what Virginia is doing to the Capital Beltway outside of D.C. by adding two H.O.T. (High Occupancy Toll) lanes to some portions or the entire median of each direction of the I-285 Perimeter to bring its width to at least twelve lanes (six in each direction). I also would like to see a system of commuter rail passenger trails on existing rail beds that parallel heavily-traveled interstates. I would like to see a commuter rail system that not only connects Downtown and Intown Atlanta to its suburbs and exurbs but also to various cities in Georgia and this part of the Southeast.
Let’s say the system included such routes as an Atlanta to Spartanburg, SC-line via Clemson, SC (Clemson Univ) or an Atlanta to Auburn/Opelika, AL (Auburn Univ)-line or an Atlanta to Valdosta-line via Macon, Warner Robins, Cordele and Tifton or an Atlanta to Chattanooga commuter rail-line via Marietta, Cartersville and Dalton along with a Brain-Train line to at-least Athens (UGA). I would also change the name of MARTA to something like METRO and make the existing and new heavy-rail lines along with light-rail, express and local bus of a central metro-area system the core backbone of a much larger statewide system of commuter rail, express bus, freeways with toll lanes and toll roads. With the absence of an existing railbed in the Georgia 400 Corridor, I would run express buses out of the existing North Springs MARTA Station up to Dahlonega with a frequent local bus line or a light-rail line up Georgia 9 to Alpharetta.
While I’m not crazy about tolls, I recognize that user-fees in the way of tolls and premium fares are probably the only way that additional infrastructure is going to be built and operated beyond this point. $2.00 fares and unpopular tax-increases proposals just ain’t gonna cut it when talking about trying to build a world-class transportation system. Adding transportation infrastructure shouldn’t just be seen as a necessary way to relieve congestion. Adding transportation infrastructure in the form of toll roads and rapid transit should also be seen for what it is: A VERY necessary investment in our quality-of-life and our economic future. If Atlanta and, most importantly, GEORGIA, is to compete not only with Nashville, Dallas and Charlotte, but also New York, Paris, Tokyo, Shanghai and Beijing, realistic investments in infrastructure are an ABSOLUTE MUST!
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Daedalus
September 10th, 2009
7:31 am
The Georgia GOP just doesn’t get it. Infrastructure costs money. That means either taxes or tolls. GDOT is clearly capable of building roads, it just cannot manage its money. GRTA is a joke and it bus system will fold when the feds pull the plug. MARTA is the only viable transit operator and to those GOPers that whine that it doesn’t go where they live — that’s because you voted it down in Cobb and Gwinnett you numbskulls.
Oxendine is driving the transit debate? What a foolish thing to say. There is no transit debate. This a Red State and Red States don’t do transit. What we have is all we will ever have. Atlanta may build the beltline — but surbubanites will continue to sit in traffic because the GOP cannot bring itself to actually pay for infrastructure.
As for paving over East Atlanta, don’t worry about that. Although that would sure make Kyle Wingnut and the rest of the right-wingers happy, it ain’t gonna happen. Y’all already siphon of Atlanta taxes for 4 lane rural roads to nowhere — be happy for that. Until GDOT loses that money too.
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Bill
September 10th, 2009
7:32 am
On his website, Oxendine argues for the extension of 400 through east Atlanta (defeated decades ago), because he says people in the northen suburbs needed a quick and easy way to get to the airport. They already have one: drive to the nearest MARTA station and take the train.
Regarding the comment that Atlanta is disperse, and there is no central destination, a look at traffic in the morning and evening would say otherwise. I live in the city, and have no trouble driving out in the morning or back in the evening, while traffic is stop and go the other way. Also, the patterns mentioned are influenced by transportation systems. A highway system like we have leads to more sprawl. More highways will simply mean more sprawl, more cars and worse air. In cities with a good mass transit system, living and working near a station is desirable.
When my family moved to Atlanta five years ago we had three major requirements. We wanted good schools, a nearby MARTA station, and a walkable neighborhood. We found all three (yes, even good schools). The sidewalks could use a lot of improvement though.
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TarHeelBred bleeds TarHeelBlue
September 10th, 2009
7:33 am
I don’t mind small tax increases to fund transportation initatives, but I am loathe to fully endorse them because tax increases are not always politically viable, especially during a very bad economy. Neither are tax increases always a creative or self-sustaining way to fund projects.
User fees make more sense politically because the perception is that the taxpayers aren’t on the hook for something that the entire motoring public may not use. With user fees you can say that those who use that infrastructure will be the ones to pay for it.
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Bill
September 10th, 2009
7:52 am
Toll roads and fare increases are both red herrings. If each individual had to pay the true cost of riding the train, it would be prohibitive for many people. However, if each individual had to pay the true cost of using the highways (which are subsidized much more heavily than trains) that wouild be prohibitive as well.
The best way to improve and finance our transit system is through higher gas taxes. Tax gas at a rate that will keep the price around $4 a gallon at the pump (adjusted for inflation). Still much cheaper than anywhere in the world. Use the money to build more public transportation.
Our gas consumption will go down. Train ridership will go up. Air will be cleaner. And, oh yeah, it is better for national security.
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Churchill's MOM
September 10th, 2009
7:52 am
I remember we fired Roy Barns and the OX’s plan is basically the same as Roy Barnes big spending plan. If we wanted Roy’s road program we should just rehire Roy. If you want a real Conservative your vote goes to Handel or Chapman. Mr Wingate if you want us to think you are a conservative write about Conservatives not big spenders.
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TarHeelBred bleeds TarHeelBlue
September 10th, 2009
7:58 am
You can’t expect Oxendine to go into a Republican Primary in Georgia advocating for mass transit and commuter rail. If he runs that kind of platform in rural Georgia he might as well just close up shop and tell his supporters to vote for a Handel-Deal ticket in the General Election. If Ox is to win the GOP primary, preferably going away, he has absolutely got to run a campaign from the hard right. I know that Intown Atlantan liberals can’t relate to the politics of a Republican Primary, but if Ox is seen as soft or sympathetic to intown liberals in any way, shape or form outside of I-285 he will get his head handed to him on a silver platter. Nathan Deal poses a real on-going challenge to Ox because he’s got the support of many mountain voters who were going to go for Casey Cagle.
You Intowners may not like being the target of political bulldozers, either literally or figurately, but most of the prospective and likely voters in a Georgia GOP Primary don’t like you and those are the voters that Ox needs to win. Voters that, honestly, would like nothing more than to see you ITP intowners wiped off of the face of the earth.
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Buzz G
September 10th, 2009
8:04 am
In the 20 years I have lived here, the quality of life in the Atlanta area has gone down. It has gone down primarily because of oppressive traffic. And it will continue to go down as long as the population increases without an increase in freeways. The East-West corridor should have been built years ago, but there are just too many head-in-the-sand NIMBYs around. With the demise of the AJC and the other leftist organizations who think light rail is the holy grail, maybe something will finally get done. And it is nice to see someone like Oxendine finally show some leadership on this issue. Yes, there will be some NIMBY organizations given great publicity by the AJC. But I am convinced, and so apparently is Oxendine, that sanity will finally prevail.
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Skram30082
September 10th, 2009
8:20 am
catlady:
Do some research. The population of Georgia is approximately 9.7 million, while the population of the Atlanta Metropolitan Statistical Area is approximately 5.4 million. So, the majority of Georgians DO live in Atlanta. Like it or not, the Atlanta MSA drives what happens in this state, and believe it or not, the rest of the state benefits from what happens in Atlanta.
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TarHeelBred bleeds TarHeelBlue
September 10th, 2009
8:32 am
Bill:
No politician in his or her right mind (or that wants to be elected, anyway) is going to propose to raise gas taxes or push them to a level that keeps the price of gas at $4.00-a-gallon, especially in red-state Georgia where socially-conservative voters want to hear a message of small government, low taxes and tax cuts. On top of that commuters aren’t the only drivers affected by higher gas prices. Raise gas taxes on commuters and you also raise gas taxes (and prices) on truckers who transport almost all of the goods and products we depend on and must buy or consume to live. Artifically raise the price of gas and you also end up raising the price of food and unless gas is pumped right out of refinery across street to a gas station, it goes up even more than you intended.
While your intentions to pay for mass transit persuade commuters to ride it through higher gas taxes may be noble and well-intentioned, higher gas taxes, and sometimes higher taxes in general, but ESPECIALLY higher gas taxes, can and will crimp economic activity and drive up the price of goods thru heavy inflation. Remember last year when gas almost hit $5.00-a-gallon? Remember when food and grocery prices started going thru the roof while incomes plunged because the price to transport them went sky-high? Remember how many truckers went belly-up because the cost of fuel was more than they were being paid to transport shipments of goods?
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dewstarpath
September 10th, 2009
8:43 am
- Doofus Axelfraulein –
My point is obvious, made evident by your idiot postings.
I’m glad to see that I’m losing weight, going from 400 to 300
pounds in a day. Instant weight loss! Your observations about
my appearance are probably as accurate as your views on
life in general. Maybe one day you will have a triple-digit I.Q.
like the rest of society, but for now I have to treat your rantings
as comedy routines. Try to stay in school.
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
8:47 am
Looks like we have proof that democrats cheat during elections.
11 accused of faking voter registration cards in Miami-Dade
Eleven people hired to register potential voters in Miami-Dade County before last year’s presidential election were being sought Wednesday for falsifying hundreds of voter registration cards.
The Miami-Dade State Attorney’s Office issued arrest warrants for each of the 11 suspects, all of whom worked for the local chapter of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, (ACORN).
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/1224631.html
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kwingfield
September 10th, 2009
10:01 am
To clarify a few things…
REALLY?: I’ll be sharing my own thoughts on mass transit in due time (hint: I took it nearly every day of the 4.5 years I lived in Belgium, so I’m not reflexively opposed to it…nor, saul good, do I think it’s just for “poor people”). But I would be willing to bet that mass transit is not a winner among most conservative voters in Georgia.
Lucas, dawgmom and others: The trend for work commutes in metro Atlanta is fewer commutes to or within downtown, and more suburb-to-suburb commutes (see Reason Foundation’s 2006 report, the full text of which is downloadable here: http://reason.org/news/show/reducing-congestion-in-atlanta). I haven’t seen good numbers on how much traffic on the connector is through-traffic (e.g., people going to Florida or truck transportation headed to other places) but the idea behind the western bypass is to divert that traffic around Atlanta completely.
Regarding the parallel connector (i.e. the one that would go under east Atlanta): Note the use of the word “under”…no one these days is proposing an above-ground road through Va-Hi, Inman Park and those other neighborhoods. It would be completely tunneled. Understand, I’m not *advocating* this idea, just explaining it.
Churchill’s MOM and others: Yes, this will take money. But most of these new roads would either be toll roads — in which case users would decide to pay for using them. There is also talk (not sure if Oxendine supports this) about paying for some new roads by turning some lanes on existing interstates into the kind of H.O.T. lanes that TarHeedBred mentioned, and using the revenue to fund new roads.
No solution to the problem — and transportation, particularly in metro Atlanta, is a problem — will be cheap. That’s one reason why I think it’s interesting that Oxendine, as a front-runner, would take the risk of starting this debate among Republicans.
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Marti Hernandez Rojas
September 10th, 2009
10:05 am
Do you think Nathan Deal’s no-bid business arrangement with the state will hurt him? Or will it roll off his back like Puredoo’s just-for-me tax break?
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Davo
September 10th, 2009
10:21 am
So once we pave over all those ITP’ers; where will the tax income go for the rest of Georgia?
Whine all you want about the ‘liberals’ intown, just realize that they contribute to the lions share of this states revenues. This is the political reality as it always has been.
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Chris
September 10th, 2009
10:26 am
Bus Rapid Transit cost 10 cents on the dollar to rail, has the benefit of being somewhat flexible, and while not able to carry as many people, can certainly support loads much greater that regular buses or cars.
Communities around the country and the world are using BRT systems as both a precursor to rail or a replacement for rail. If we choose to, we can start solving the congestion problems quickly or we can plan future rail lines only and continue to complain for the next two decades.
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Davo
September 10th, 2009
10:49 am
I picture this meeting you had with Steele much like a tv crime drama would show a parole hearing; the guy will say anything to get out of his current circumstances…but can you really trust him?
I don’t…no commuted sentence from this conservative voter.
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clincher
September 10th, 2009
10:51 am
I am a conservative and I firmly believe that investing in transit is the MOST conservative way to invest in transportation. Roads also need constant public investment and, unlike with transit, there is NO revenue from most roads. If you are going to call yourself a conservative please be honest or do your basic homework. Typing up the talking points for your readers just makes you look like every other backwards stale so called Georgia “conservative”. A better word for you is Populist.
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Zeb
September 10th, 2009
10:56 am
Heck, we can’t even afford to cut the grass and brush along state highways. And here are all these folks blathering away about paving every square inch of GA, like it was 1958. China and the Arabs own us because we sent them all our money. Oxendine and his charts of proposed pavement projects are laughable, moronic.
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Becky
September 10th, 2009
11:00 am
Just another plan to suck more money from the Atlanta area. When will the rest of Georgia start pulling their weight in the state?
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Say anything
September 10th, 2009
11:17 am
With the Western Democracies teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, starvation and collapse, all due to their wildly unpopular, government-run, universal health-care bureaucracies, why would the President wish to doom our nation to failure by going down the same path?
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Say anything
September 10th, 2009
11:20 am
“For us, the work continues to re-establish faith with the people of this country. What lines do you think they will buy, Kyle?”
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
11:46 am
Um, if the GOP would return to conservatism they would win. Notice how Obama talked about individualism, competition and so forth. Those are conservative issues. He’s against those things because he’s a socialist. If Michael Steele wants to sweep next November, which right now they stand a big chance of winning due to the idiocy of the democrat party, he should recruit conservatives and conservative stances. Newt did it in 1994 and they swept the democrats from office.
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
11:48 am
Kyle, are you not keeping up with Northeastern politics? New Jersey is about to put a Republican in the governors mansion. After years and years of democrat corruption and high unemployment, the GOP is taking the state.
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Kyle Wingfield
September 10th, 2009
11:51 am
Davo: I would imagine a lot of conservative voters feel the same way. How long would you (and other commenters) make the “sentence”?
Say anything: I’d say it will take more than nice lines. It will take demonstrated actions.
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Kyle Wingfield
September 10th, 2009
11:55 am
David Axelfraud: The NJ race is definitely an important one, maybe a bellwether. The GOP also has openings in Connecticut next year with Chris Dodd’s seat and in Pennsylvania (don’t know if that really counts as “Northeast,” but oh well) with Arlen Specter’s seat. Ditto the NY gubernatorial race.
Those would be big swings.
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Davo
September 10th, 2009
12:08 pm
Davo: I would imagine a lot of conservative voters feel the same way. How long would you (and other commenters) make the “sentence”?
Given that treason is a capitol offense worthy of the death penalty…
But, I digress. After this next election cycle we shall see how the public leans. I’m hoping the independents will finally make a stand. Only a few would upset the contrivied balance that we now have in Congress…that would be good for all of us.
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
12:17 pm
clincher, come up to Chicago. Look at how much the CTA costs taxpayers per year. It;s a nightmare.
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
12:18 pm
The ONLY way that a public transit system would work is if General Sherman came back from the grave, burned the A-T-L to the ground, and a group of common sense engineers designed a city on a grid system like NYC and Chicago. It won’t work ANY other way.
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
12:19 pm
Becky, the rest of the state doesn’t care about Atlanta and its transit problems. If the city can’t devise a competent plan then SCREW the A-T-L! YO YO YO
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Joan
September 10th, 2009
1:08 pm
The GOP does need to get back to its conservative roots. There are plenty of people who still believe, and act on the belief, that this is the land of opportunity, and if you are willing to work hard enough you can accomplish anything. These people are the kind of people that created this wonderful country. Those who are content to suck at the government teat, are those who have no faith in themselves, don’t want to work hard, or just buy the rhetoric that they are “victims”. The GOP needs to stress the uplifting message available to it, and not play the ball in the Democrats’ court. We need a messenger in the GOP, not of “hope”, but of self-determination and individual responsibility. Where is that person?
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
1:20 pm
CNN Poll: Double-digit post-speech jump for Obama plan
The sample of speech-watchers in this poll was 45 percent Democratic and 18 percent Republican.
Now, can any of you bozo liberal democrats tell me how that poll is not skewed?
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
1:22 pm
Joan, you asked, where is that person?
Well, there are a whole list of potential candidates. Sarah Palin, Bobby Jindal, Eric Cantor, Mitch Daniels, Mitt Romney and many many others.
The problem is the media is bought by the DNC. MSNBC and CNN officially work for the DNC. CNN employs two current members of the DNC.
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
1:23 pm
Kyle Wingfield, the GOP has no choice but to go conservative. Blue Dogs won on a totally conservative platform. Hell, Obama won running on a conservative platform. Mccain ran as a moderate and a reach across the aisle guy and HE LOST! MODERATES NEVER WIN ELECTIONS!
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Cutty
September 10th, 2009
1:55 pm
Expansion? Thats what you call the low wage service jobs created during the Bush years. Right. My ‘endpoints’ were the duration of the Bush presidency if you didn’t know. And if Republicans would argue for a more robust financial policy aside from cutting taxes I would be more inclined to see your view in a more positive light.
And companies don’t invest anymore, they take the government subsidies and move their headquarters to another country.
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jconservative
September 10th, 2009
2:29 pm
“…if Republicans are to win in, say, the Northeast, Steele said they “have to identify candidates who can win in the Northeast…”
This is a real problem. Maine, for example, has only elected 2 Democratic senators since 1854, in 1911 & 1973, & neither were re-elected. All others have been Republican. But, and a big but, Maine has never elected a conservative. All of the Republican senators have been moderates. This runs true all across the Northeast. The last Republican governor of NJ is in the Obama administration. What was Romney’s tag when he was governor of Mass. – “the liberal Republican Governor of Mass.”
Steele’s problem is raising money from hard core social conservatives
that he will spend on financing “social moderate” Republicans.
The neocon type Republicans just took out Chaffee in RI & Specter in PA.
That is 2 lost Senate seats.
My 2 cents.
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Andy Roth
September 10th, 2009
2:35 pm
A tunnel poking out from under Inman Park is an excellent political move. Inman Park, Grant Park, Fourth Ward is a bunch of liberals who will cry babay about a big hole in their back yard. CNN, WSB and the like will be all over it. Free advertising for the Ox pissing off a buch of Demon-crats. That plays well with Republicans all over the state! I will delcare the winner now…
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BPJ
September 10th, 2009
2:36 pm
Oxendine is driving the debate on transit in the same sense that Ahmadinijad is driving the debate on Middle East Peace (or in the sense that Joe Wilson (R-SC) is driving the debate on health care).
Please Axelfraud, Atlanta (both the city and the metro area) have excellent transit plans. All we have asked for is the state to give us permission to VOTE on whether to tax OURSELVES to fund those plans.
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Kyle Wingfield
September 10th, 2009
3:12 pm
Sir, if you do not use the gray box anyone can say anything in your name. Just saying.
jconservative
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
3:17 pm
jconservative, what does that matter? Chaffee voted Democrat 90% of the time. I’d rather have a party with a majority of conservatives than RINOs. RINOs like Mccain lose us elections. The northeast is becoming a wasteland of corruption and bankruptcy anyway. I mean, libs are not too concerned with winning liberal seats in the south. So why should we care about the North East?
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
3:18 pm
Cynthia Tucker should put a sickle and hammer next to her red box in her blogs. It would really clear up some things.
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@@
September 10th, 2009
3:36 pm
Kyle, I would like to think that conservatives have learned their lesson. Obama and the dems didn’t win by the landslide that media reports. It was more a message to conservatives to get back in line. Well, we’re in line now waiting to see if independent voters have had enough of dems in the 8 short months they’ve ruled both houses.
I’m betting they have. The question remains, will they be seeking candidates with an “I” behind their name? Independent candidates always put the hurt on dems but this time around, who knows? we could end up with a substantially mixed bag for the first time.
Ayes would be penny candy where lobbyists are concerned. It wouldn’t take ‘em long to learn how to game the system.
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jconservative
September 10th, 2009
3:52 pm
David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
3:17 pm
jconservative, what does that matter?
This matters. Chaffee lost when the neocon big money ran a neocon against him in the primary. Chaffee spent all his money winning the
primary & was broke for the general election. Whitehouse the really liberal Democrat took the seat.
That meant that when Congress convened in Jan 2007 the Democrats had 51 votes & thus controlled the Senate. Now click forward to Nov 2008.
Bush 43 has 34 nominations for Federal District attorney in the Judiciary committee for approval. All are Republicans. The Democratically controlled committee sits on the nominations.
Now that Obama is in the WH he is making new nominations, all Democrats,
& all will be approved. Obama gets 34 extra nominations.
Now had Chaffee been re-elected, and he probably would have, the Republicans would have controlled the 2007/2008 Senate. The seat count would have been 50 Rep & 50 Dem – & VP Cheney would have cast the tie breaker. And the Republican Judiciary would have approved all 34 District attorney nominations.
This whole scenario cost the conservative movement 34 district attorneys. And that is a big deal.
What matters is not the vote on individual bills but the size of your caucus. The party that controls the Senate controls the country.
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
4:23 pm
@@, good to see you, comrade. Remember me……COMRADE?
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
4:24 pm
jconservative, that’s all fine and dandy but you seem to forget that these RINOs vote with democrats more than they do with Republicans. Whose to say Chafee would not pull a Specter?
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
4:26 pm
@@, Obama and the dems overreached and now they are where they are. They gambled on the notion that America is now a left leaning country. Could not be further from the truth.
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jconservative
September 10th, 2009
4:49 pm
David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
4:24 pm
jconservative, that’s all fine and dandy
I would like to win the war. I am willing to lose a few battles.
Note the following numbers: the national debt – $290.5 billion in 1960 — $11.6 trillion is 2009.
Sir, we conservatives are losing the war. You can’t win the war without control of the Senate.
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Kyle Wingfield
September 10th, 2009
5:13 pm
Thanks for bringing this to my attention, jconservative. We’re trying to figure out why this is happening. In the meantime, I’m going to take down any future comments by posters who use my name.
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Joe
September 10th, 2009
5:36 pm
In 2008 when the insurance industry was cramming the new version of uninsured motorist coverage down our throats like it was some kind of good idea for everyone, I never heard anything from Oxendine stating that it may not be good for 2+ car families. What seemed to be kept quiet was that if you had multiple cars under one person’s name (which is how most 2+ car families have the insurance policies set up, under the head of household) the uninsured motorist coverage that you already had available for any accident was the sum of both policies in your own name. The new UE coverage only added the other drivers policy value so if they had no insurance, you got nothing for the additional money paid for the new UE coverage. If you had $100,000 uninsured motorist coverage on both your cars, you really had $200,000 coverage available if needed AT NO ADDITIONAL COST TO YOU!!! If you have 2+ cars with uninsured motorist coverage and the sum of both is satisfactory, WHY PAY MORE MONEY FOR UE COVERAGE THAT MAY NOT ADD ANY ADDITIONAL VALUE IN THE EVENT OF AN ACCIDENT? Call your insurance company and ask specific questions if this is not true. Not only did this little fact seem to be never stated, it was made very difficult to opt out of the new UE coverage. You had to submit an opt-out statement in writing. Why? Normally I can buy insurance and set all the limits over the phone but this coverage had to be opted out in writing. Since I never heard anything from our insurance commissioner Oxendine explaining this, he has turned me off to him permanently. This hair brained scheme to build a road through the neighborhoods so the people from outside the area can get through Atlanta quicker on their way to the airport is just icing on the cake. This guy is not who I want in any office where he can do real damage.
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
5:56 pm
This is by far the funniest heckler I have ever seen. Wish he was on the floor last night with Obama.
http://reason.com/blog/show/135994.html
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
5:57 pm
jconservative, blame the GOP for not fighting hard. Blame Mccain and Huckabee for Romney not being the nominee. Blame the GOP for totally leaving behind the Contract with America.
Bottom line: The GOP needs to get back to conservatism and rid themselves of moderates.
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jt
September 10th, 2009
6:12 pm
Bottom line: The GOP needs to get back to conservatism and rid themselves of moderates.
AND incumbents. A purge if you will.
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@@
September 10th, 2009
6:20 pm
@@, good to see you, comrade. Remember me……COMRADE?
No, can’t say that I do David. There’s only one poster (former) that I equate with COMRADE and he weren’t no conservative.
I predicted long before the election win that democrats would overreach. Never could I have imagined they would reach this far this fast. Obama’s good at riding the “merry”-go-round of a campaign but once he grabs that brass ring, he doesn’t know what to do with it.
The point I was trying to make was that conservatives have suffered the hard consequences. I hold out hope that should they be given another chance, they won’t repeat the same mistake. Can’t say that about democrats. They see no error in their ways but the public is quickly learning that they never change their ways.
Drop some more hints for me, COMRADE. You’ve got my curiosity aroused.
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@@
September 10th, 2009
6:24 pm
Drop that second “their ways”…sounds less redundant though that’s what dems’ policies are.
Half-baked leftovers.
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
6:33 pm
BPJ, ok, just saying. If you want a great transit system why not model after one that has been around for more than 50 years. Just saying
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David Axelfraud
September 10th, 2009
6:34 pm
@@, Communist AJC. Ring a bell?
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gatorman770
September 10th, 2009
6:44 pm
Transportation should be financed by increasing the tax on all motor fuels (and yes rapid transit ticket prices will have to go up also), not by a increase in state sales tax on all purchases.
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@@
September 10th, 2009
7:38 pm
David:
I never would have guessed. You made it too easy though. I prefer a challenge.
So….is your ban from Bookman’s a lifetime? If it is, you’re not missing much. It’s turned into a regular little chat room over there. BO-oaring.
Anyhoo, nice to meet up with you again. I’ll be sure to drop by when I can.
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atlpaddy
September 10th, 2009
7:47 pm
Ox is a numbnuts.
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BPJ
September 10th, 2009
8:25 pm
The problem with relying on motor fuel taxes is that, over the next 10 or 20 years, gas will be less and less important as cars become more efficient. We’re going to have to have to start moving away from that funding model for transport. This will require legislators who think beyond the next election. (there are a few)
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rielly
September 10th, 2009
9:31 pm
so let me get this straight rachel, when republicans call obama a socialist its a horrible thing to do, yet when nancy pelosi, and other democrats called people going to the town hall meetings to express their concern about a horrible healthcare plan un-american it was totally ok? I’m sorry but the double standards that you guys have is completely ridiculous and it really makes me wonder how anyone can be proud to call themselves a democrat
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ruby
September 10th, 2009
9:37 pm
I have never seen a President be so clever as has President Obama. Who else could’ve known that so many people are so clueless about political theologies that he could actually increase his popularity by taking what people think they hate the most (conservatism), and disguise it as his own personal philosophy? Who knew that all we had to do to bring “conservative values” back in style was to call them liberal? This man is a genius!
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rielly
September 10th, 2009
9:41 pm
i also love the comment about how it shouldn’t matter what party the president is from, he shouldn’t give a speech to school children, ESPECIALLY now. There is so much controversy surrounding healthcare, that some smart and informed kids may not want to listen to obama talk. Now, since the majority of teachers are democrat, doesn’t really make sense to me that “smart” people would call themselves democrat, what if a teacher decides to treat the students who refuse to watch differently? I know, in a perfect world this wouldn’t happen, but this isn’t a perfect world, and people let their bias get in the way of judgement all the time
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ruby
September 10th, 2009
9:41 pm
I followed Michael Steele for years before his appointment, (well, a few years; I’m only 30) and based on the character shown through his other involvements, I would trust his word quicker than that of ANYONE, I’ve ever had the pleasure of voting for or against.
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Jason Davis
September 10th, 2009
10:41 pm
Oh yeah. One other legitimate criticism of the schitzo Republicans. The last three Republican administrations have been anything but fiscally conservative. They did not limit spending. Republicans love pork like every other politician. Republicans helped raise the national debt from 32% of GDP in 1980 when Reagan took office to 75% in 2009 when Obama took office. It declined under Clinton. We are broke at all levels of government. Dont raise taxes on gasoline for your stupid roads in rural Georgia, my property or income. I dont have any more money for your dumb ideas either.
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Chris Salzmann
September 10th, 2009
11:01 pm
David Axelfraud September 10th, 2009 1:23 pm SAID: Kyle Wingfield, the GOP has no choice but to go conservative. Blue Dogs won on a totally conservative platform. Hell, Obama won running on a conservative platform. Mccain ran as a moderate and a reach across the aisle guy and HE LOST! MODERATES NEVER WIN ELECTIONS!
CHRIS SAYS: ROFLMAO. What analysis!!! McCain lost because (A) The Republican brand is poison after 8 years of Bush and McCain’s performance during the campaign. Example: Recession? What recession??? and (B) Sarah Palin which drove moderate Republicans and Independents into Obama’s fold. I personally know many hard core Republicans who sat out the election because they were appalled by Sarah Palin.
In fact, as a liberal, I would want nothing more than see Sarah Palin again on a Presidential ticket. Heck, maybe that Michelle Bachman. That would be a liberal’s dream Republican ticket.
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Michael H. Smith
September 10th, 2009
11:01 pm
People hate conservatism?
The majority in this country identify themselves as conservatives and Obama is no genius.
I like Mr. Still but he should know what is said about fighting the next war based on the last war you fought. Especially, when you lost the last war. The political dynamics of 2010, which is the next war, are going to be different than those of ‘08.
The news media is playing the Obama healthcare speech-up but that was a very angry speech Americans heard. I don’t think they feel it was the game changer for the good as the MSM and the Democrats would like everyone to believe it was.
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Michael H. Smith
September 10th, 2009
11:03 pm
Excuse the error: “Mr. Steele”.
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Chris Salzmann
September 10th, 2009
11:12 pm
David Axelfraud September 10th, 2009 5:57 pm SAID: Bottom line: The GOP needs to get back to conservatism and rid themselves of moderates.
CHRIS SAYS: LMAO. And who’s going to vote for the GOP? The GOP is shrinking and is now basically, a “Southern” WHITE party. The Democratic Party is growing more diverse like the rest of this country. Fewer and fewer minorities are calling themselves Republicans. In 30 years, this will be a “minority-majority” country. In fact, even right now, without 40% of the Latino vote, any GOP Presidential candidate will lose. Also, only about 25% of people in this country call themselves Republicans. Yeah, go ahead and follow Rush Limbaugh’s advice. His advice to Republicans during the last election really helped, didn’t it?
You and your ilk are like the Romans in Rome who, even when seeing the Barbarians rampaging down from first of the seven hills of Rome, still refused to believe that the end of their 1000 year empire was at hand.
Keep on drinking that cool-aid, kid. In fact, you had better stock up on it because its going to be a long and agonizing decline. And the best part? This is just the beginning!!!!
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Chris Salzmann
September 10th, 2009
11:27 pm
Here’s Micheal Steele’s recent response to a good question about Health Care. Note his response because this sums up the Republican Party’s response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubsXg88V41E
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GayGrayGeek
September 10th, 2009
11:27 pm
jconservative @ 2:29: Maine, for example, has only elected 2 Democratic senators since 1854, in 1911 & 1973, & neither were re-elected.
Typical Republican’t lying, yet again. Ever heard of George Mitchell? Appointed in 1980, elected in 1982, re-elected with a Maine-record-setting 81% of the vote?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_J._Mitchell#From_Judge_to_Senator
Jeez, why do you wingnuts lie so carelessly, when a simple check of simple facts will reveal your mendaciousness?
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David Axelfraud
September 11th, 2009
7:34 am
Chris Salzmann writes: Yeah, go ahead and follow Rush Limbaugh’s advice. His advice to Republicans during the last election really helped, didn’t it?
Axelfraud says: Rush Limbaughs advice was to nominate a conservative. The voters nominated a moderate hack. So, no Mr. Idiot Salzbury Steak, you are wrong.
Go sell stupid somewhere else.
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Davo
September 11th, 2009
8:10 am
Lies and the Lying Liars Who Lie Them
by Jack Hunter on September 11, 2009
http://www.takimag.com/article/lies_and_the_lying_liars_who_lie_them/
“But besides his bad behavior, Wilson’s greatest mistake was in limiting his critique to just one aspect of the proposed healthcare plan. Unlike many conservatives, I don’t find it necessary to attribute all sorts of devious motives to President Obama. Calling Obama a “socialist” is accurate, but he is simply the latest in a long line of socialist presidents who gave us Social Security, Medicare and other expansions of an ever-growing welfare state that too many Americans consider their birthright.”
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Michael H. Smith
September 11th, 2009
10:12 am
Another 9/11 will pass in commemoration. Speeches well rehearsed will be given, all will be mournful and show respects for our nation’s dead. Except perhaps for “The 9/11 Truthers” of the Van Jones, Charlie Sheen ilk, the chanters of give peace a chance and war weary who shake their heads and say, it simply isn’t worth it.
Obama will now face defending his “Good War” in Afghanistan against these dissenting voices. His strongest foes will emerge from within his own ranks. In the final analysis politics will win again as it did before, our fighting forces will not lose militarily upon the field of battle only to suffer another humiliating defeat upon the floor of Congress where our enemies will continue win.
The politics of appeasement always ends badly as history has proven and it will do so again. Where freedom and liberty has no chance, peace has no opportunity nor can it gain one by conceding to the oppressors the victory of compromised freedom and liberty in the trusting virtues of Neville Chamberlain.
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David Axelfraud
September 11th, 2009
10:17 am
Since I am banned from Jay Bookmans blog, someone should send this to him since he thinks anti abortion people are evil. Looks like the tables have turned.
Anti-abortion activist shot in front of Owosso High School
OWOSSO, Michigan — State police at the Corunna post have confirmed a well-known anti-abortion activist was shot multiple times and killed this morning in front of Owosso High School.
The victim’s identity has not yet been released but the shooting occurred around 7:30 a.m., after most students were off t