Time to put Hall of Fame vote on shelf, overhaul system

Najeh Davenpoop

January 9th, 2013
5:22 pm

Babe Ruth and other pre-1947 players had more of a competitive advantage (not having to play against non-white players) than anyone in the steroid era. If it’s just about competitive advantages, penalizing steroid users alone makes no sense without accounting for the competitive advantages that players in other eras had. And if it’s about other things, like character, then there are plenty of worse human beings than Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa in the HOF.

Not that I or any other fan should really care… it’s not like Pete Rose isn’t recognized for his greatness just because some museum in upstate NY that nobody visits doesn’t have his face in it.

Jonathan

January 9th, 2013
5:30 pm

Why Jack Morris? If Lonnie Smith doesn’t fall down, are we even discussing him? I understand the arguments for him, but they seem to be false flags.
1. Most wins in the 1980’s. Ok, who won the most games in the 2000’s? Randy Johnson, Roy Oswalt, or Andy Pettitte?
2. 14 opening day starts. Is this even a stat? Do we know how many opening day starts anyone else had?
3. 3.90 ERA is the highest ERA that would be in the hall. Dave Stieb has a better case than Morris.

DCBravesfan

January 9th, 2013
5:33 pm

Agree with the thrust of your article, but entirely disagree with dismissal of Craig Biggio. Perhaps 3,000 hits is an arbitrary marker, but it’s still impressive. And the fact that he was able to produce as much offensively as he did at three prime defensive positions adds so much value to his case.

And, I obviously agree with you about Murphy, but Biggio also played the game “the right way,” albeit in a different sense of the word. Play hard every day, take a HBP, never GIDP, and play the position you’re told to play and still manage to get 3,000 hits – that should definitely be Hall of Fame worthy.

Shaun

January 9th, 2013
5:41 pm

More historian types and types that have actually published some sort of research should have a strong say in who gets in to the Hall of Fame. Members of the BBWAA are mostly baseball reporters, essentially, and aren’t paid to have a historical perspective or to evaluate players.

People who know baseball history and people who think like baseball front office types are the people who should have the loudest voices, people who understand that Tim Raines deserves to be enshrined and why, people who understand why Biggio was so valuable to his teams and why.

Macon Fan

January 9th, 2013
5:48 pm

Well Murph is in my Hall of Fame.

Steroid Use Taints 2013 Baseball Hall of Fame Inductions – ABC News | urbandestruction.com

January 9th, 2013
5:50 pm

[...] of Fame CandidatesNew York TimesA baseball game nobody winsCNN InternationalLos Angeles Times -Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) -Dallas Morning News (blog)all 2,510 news articles » This entry was posted in [...]

rastusbrown3

January 9th, 2013
5:51 pm

Do you ever agree with anyone?

Vince

January 9th, 2013
5:54 pm

The system isn’t broken. Those that deserve to get in will, and those that don’t deserve it, won’t.

Typical reactionary column by typical reactionary columnist. ’nuff said.

Shaun

January 9th, 2013
5:55 pm

Vince, Tim Raines is still waiting while Jim Rice is in. That’s a problem.

PMC

January 9th, 2013
5:55 pm

Maybe they should take the vote away from Aaron Sele’s dad.

Marvin Mangrum

January 9th, 2013
5:56 pm

You write and thank you for that, but are lamenting to us that you are saddened by the absence of the roid boys getting in, because if you are then you and the Hall should shut down. Period. Biggio it dont matter how many votes he got, he was way short. It will work, it almost always has.It always will. I loved Murph, he wasnt HOF. But neither were any of the roid boys, so I really dont get it. I suspect in a year or two Murph will make it. The shame, the true shame is Joe Jackson and Pete Rose arent in. That was, is a shame. And look here my family spent 6 hours there one day a while back. Have you been?

Vince

January 9th, 2013
5:57 pm

It’s not the ‘Hall of Very Good’ it’s the Hall of Fame. Dale Murphy is a great guy, but he isn’t in b/c he wasn’t good enough to merit induction. If his numbers were, there would be a ton of other players with similar stats in as well. Get over it and stop being a homer.

PMC

January 9th, 2013
5:58 pm

Most Baseball writers are senile anyway. It’s a dying sport.

Vince

January 9th, 2013
5:59 pm

Shaun, Raines will almost certainly get in. Jim Rice is a HOFer in my opinion, and the writers agreed.

Close it down........

January 9th, 2013
6:00 pm

Close it all down as far as I am concerned before you let the likes of Clemens, or Bond, or Rose, or McGwire, or Sosa – and just forget about Murphy – good guy but not great…….only STELLAR ROLE MODEL stars should be allowed in……and if you are just good, then TOUGH TINSEL.

Aaron Sele

January 9th, 2013
6:02 pm

I think the real reason the system needs to be overhauled is become some knucklehead voted for me.

Ken

January 9th, 2013
6:08 pm

Biggio and “crimedog”:McGriff both deserve a lot of votes, Jack Morris and Raines too. But, something is wrong when none of them can get in, and the cheaters get a huge pile of votes.

Tomahawk Schultz for a change!

January 9th, 2013
6:09 pm

Jeff, Not a single person was deserving this year! Period! And yes the most deserving was Biggio. He was a solid to great player for years (which as a proud Braves fan I hate to say…Murphy was not. Which has been his undoing). None of the steroid freaks should be admitted! Baseball has been built by statistics over the years and those players must have felt they weren’t good enough and thus must be juiced. So its our turn to squeeze them for awhile now. Next year some will be admitted – on the first ballot entry no doubt! Maddux and Glavine. Two guys with nothing great but who worked the plate to get the stats needed for consideration and great seasons that followed…and nobody has ever wondered whether they miraculously got better and were roid freaks. The writers deserve a pat on the back for getting it right!!! Not criticized for putting the juicers in their place. McGriff was a pretty good first basemen…but hall of fame worthy? I’m a die hard Braves fan, but even I couldn’t in good faith put him in the hall. Being good is not what the hall is for! Being Great is supposed to be the criteria. Great job writers – excepting Jeff Schultz (just this once Jeff…normally I enjoy your articles! .

Dave

January 9th, 2013
6:13 pm

I’m not sure what your point is. All of the people you listed in one of the late paragraphs cheated and you and your fellow writers decided they shouldn’t benefit from their cheating. Dale Murphy on stats was to many, most, borderline at best. I can’t explain Biggio. Democracy I guess. You like some of what happened and don’t like the rest. Seems to me that the unspoken criteria is no to drug folks and no to marginal folks. What’s wrong with that?

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
6:16 pm

According to Baseball Reference, excluding the original class, there have been 39 (if I counted right) first ballot HOF’s since 1937. Actually it’s since 1962 because there were no first ballot guys from 1937-1961. Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan were the 2 highest vote getters at 98.8%. The two lowest were Robin Yount and Jackie Robinson at 77.5%. Rickey Henderson was the last first ballot guy in 2009, and there have been roughly 10 in every decade since 1980. It appears to have stabilized after loosening up in the 80’s. There were 4 in the 60’s and 5 in the 70’s.

Biggio goes in, in a year or two, that’s really nothing new.

Personally, I think Murphy, Morris, McGriff and Tim Raines are deserving. The reality is that if you don’t get in, in your first 3-4 years of eligibility, you probably aren’t going to make it. That’s the way the system works and it’s been that way a very long time.

Alex

January 9th, 2013
6:17 pm

Biggio is a Hall of Famer. He may have never been a highlight play type of guy, but he was a hell of a player.

oldfart

January 9th, 2013
6:17 pm

If any of the ‘roid rascals do make it I propose their busts be placed in the bathroom stalls in the hall.

And was it just coincidence that Biggio’s numbers fell way off after they finally started testing?

DP

January 9th, 2013
6:18 pm

Agree that Biggio shouldn’t be in but I don’t think Morris, Murphy or McGriff should either though McGriff is the closest call of those. And I’m glad to see the obvious steroid cheats like Bonds, Clemens and Sosa not even get half the required votes.

I would have a more restrictive Hall of Fame voting standards. I think it should be for really great players who either sustained it over a long career or were off the charts great for a shorter period of time like Sandy Koufax. I wouldn’t vote in the guys who pile up numbers by playing forever but weren’t really star players for most of their careers, like Biggio, Phil Niekro and Don Sutton.

Dawgdad (The Original)

January 9th, 2013
6:24 pm

If Dale Murphy and Crime Dog Fred McGriff aren’t good enough for admission, they ought to just shut it down. Biggio should be there as well, catcher, second baseman, center fielder, team leader, 3000 hits, why shouldn’t he be there?

They knock Murphy for lack of longevity, but no one said a word about Sandy Koufax and his short career. The Standard should be were you a dominant player in your time.

Game Time

January 9th, 2013
6:26 pm

What’s up with you and Biggio? The guy was a player for goodness sakes. Just reinforces how little you know about things outside Georgia – and even within the state your judgment and assessments are suspect. Where have all the good sports writers and journalists gone? Atlanta deserves better!

DunwoodyDawg

January 9th, 2013
6:26 pm

I do think there should be some automatic qualifications for the BB HOF. 300 career wins for a pitcher, 3000 career hits, maybe 500 career home runs. 500 saves for a relief pitcher. If you’re playing baseball at its highest level, and you are around long enough to hit those milestones, you should be in the HOF.

Mike A

January 9th, 2013
6:27 pm

Biggio was a better player than McGriff when one considers position. Biggio is, in fact, very comparable to Alomar and Sandberg. Granted, the HoF hasn’t always been kind to 2nd sackers – see Lou Whitaker – but Craig is clearly deserving of the Hall.

While Biggio is likely a top 10 2nd baseman, McGriff probably just sneaks into the top 30 of 1st basemen. One could make a semi-decent argument for Fred getting in the Hall (think Tony Perez), but he should be on the back burner until the more deserving players (Bonds, Clemens, Raines, etc) get in.

And Jack Morris shouldn’t even sniff the Hall of Fame. He just wasn’t that good.

oldfart

January 9th, 2013
6:27 pm

OT comment to Jeff. At great sacrifice I just did a non-scientific test and I can load a Ukrainian porn site’s home page with over 200 pictures more than three times faster than any of the AJC pages. It has become almost unbearable to try to join you guys in a live blog as of late.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
6:28 pm

The Standard should be were you a dominant player in your time.

The late baseball writer, Joe Falls, said he always based his vote on this question (paraphrase), “Was he a dominant player, at his position, in his era, and did he maintain that level over a period of years?”

I think that’s a pretty good criteria.

DP

January 9th, 2013
6:29 pm

Comparing the best years of Dale Murphy with the best years of Sandy Koufax, are you kidding? There are no more than a handful of pitchers who ever put together a 5-6 year stretch in the neighborhood of what Koufax did: Maddux, Pedro Martinez, maybe a couple of the ancient guys like Walter Johnson and Christy Matthewson. There are dozens of position players who put together extended stretches that were better than the best of Dale Murphy.

DunwoodyDawg

January 9th, 2013
6:31 pm

By the way, is there anyone with 3000 career hits who hasn’t made the HOF? Besides Biggio obviously.

DP

January 9th, 2013
6:31 pm

Hillybilly D, I agree completely with the position of Joe Falls that you cite.

Joey M

January 9th, 2013
6:36 pm

@Najeh Davenpoop I’ve heard that argument about Ruth, Cobb, Johnson, Young, etc not having to play against non-white players and I’m about sick of it. There were 8 teams in the AL and NL each. Are you seriously going to tell me the league would have had enough black or Hispanic players to alter statistics that much? Stop feeding me this line of garbage. There would have been at most 5 black/Hispanic players per team. That’s 40 in the AL and NL. Not many minorities played sports back then. Not every player in the Negro Leagues would have been a MLB player. A lot would have been, but not all of them. And how many would have pitched? 1 or 2 per team at most. Who’s to say that Ruth wouldn’t have hit more home runs or Cobb get more hits if they had minority players to play against? The door swings both ways.

Now that I have that off my chest, McGriff and Murphy should be in the HOF. It’s a joke that they are not.

1966 Atlanta Braves...

January 9th, 2013
6:36 pm

Henry Aaron will always be the all time homerun king, the strongest substance he used was a cold can of beer! Keep these fakes OUT!

Felix

January 9th, 2013
6:39 pm

Shut it down for a while. One part of it worked this time though – they kept the cheaters out.

I hate it for Murph.

Georgia

January 9th, 2013
6:39 pm

Maybe baseball does tell us who we were and are. But we all found out that we love baseball first, because even the most traditional fan shut up when he saw Jackie Robinson tear up all those bases, and all those baseballs. We love winning baseball most of all. We should talk about ourselves through baseball. Look at us back then never having seen a better angel on the basepath.

Now, lets all join hands and kill the designated hitter rule.

Mike A

January 9th, 2013
6:40 pm

Hank Aaron admitted to taking an amphetamine to boost his performance when he was struggling. Who’s to say he wouldn’t have taken steroids had they been readily available? Morals didn’t change, the drugs changed.

"Chef" Tim Dix

January 9th, 2013
6:43 pm

I really believe that we the public know more about the voters from their stump than the players that are eligible.

When did the voters become the stars?

Darryl Blackberry

January 9th, 2013
6:43 pm

Biggio should’ve gotten voted in, actually. Should McGriff have gotten more consideration? Yes, but Biggio was more valuable, considering the positions at which he played.

As for the rest, why overhaul the system? The fact that Bonds and Clemens didn’t crack 40 percent is a bit of a referendum on their cheating, don’t you think? There’s no guarantee that their numbers will rise (McGwire’s haven’t) as they get older.

If we must complain about anything, let it be the absence of Dale Murphy from so many HOF ballots. Perhaps both Murphy and McGriff were too modest over the course of their careers for their own good. So be it.

DP

January 9th, 2013
6:45 pm

Yes, Najeh’s blather about Ruth, Cobb, etc. is beyond absurd. The steroid cheats made the conscious choice to cheat. The players prior to 1947 didn’t make the decision about whether non whites could play or not, the commissioner and owners did. Babe Ruth had years in which he hit more home runs than most of the teams of the league did, and he would have been a Hall of Fame pitcher had he not switched to the outfield. And his career batting average was only .25 behind Ty Cobb, a singles hitter who had the highest batting average of all time. The idea that his inclusion in the Hall of Fame is somehow tainted is about as stupid as it gets. I don’t see how there can even be a reasonable case made that he wasn’t the greatest baseball player of all time when you combine his hitting and pitching careers.

ER Steve

January 9th, 2013
6:45 pm

Take away the vote from these writers. You are exactly right Jeff, they are becoming the story. Throw out the steroid thing for a second, basically they said, you need a certain threshold to get in (no to Morris, Murphy, Raines) but if your numbers are too good, you likely cheated (Piazza, Bagwell). That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
And to me there is no excuse for not putting in Bonds and Clemons. The will always be legends, even if their numbers might be inflated. It is not a hall of fame without them.
Finally I think the writers hold grudges against players they didn’t get along with, and have a conflict of interest because they benefit from this being a story that no one got in.

Attention Media Members!!! You can’t ignore the story while it happened in the 90’s and then act so mortified now!! I am disgusted.

Ken

January 9th, 2013
6:49 pm

About Biggio – the best thing about him was that he was not spectacular, but produced huge numbers, hits, runs and steals and a few home runs. He was a mainstay of my fantasy team, back in the days when we had to pay a service for stats. I always drafted him first or protected him. Never hurt, always produced, he was just low key when it came to the “being a star” game.

SoWeGa Fanatic

January 9th, 2013
6:53 pm

Very good column, Jeff. The cheaters need to stay out of the HOF, but your column should go in.

faninva

January 9th, 2013
6:54 pm

DunwoodyDawg – Palmeiro and Rose.

Ken

January 9th, 2013
6:56 pm

And don’t forget Biggio’s doubles. He was huge in that area.

"Chef" Tim Dix

January 9th, 2013
6:57 pm

Bonds (1), Sosa (8), McGwire (10) and Rafael Palmeiro (12) rank among career home run leaders.

PED’s or POS, either one enough to keep these poster boys out.

Najeh Davenpoop

January 9th, 2013
6:58 pm

“I’ve heard that argument about Ruth, Cobb, Johnson, Young, etc not having to play against non-white players and I’m about sick of it. There were 8 teams in the AL and NL each. Are you seriously going to tell me the league would have had enough black or Hispanic players to alter statistics that much? ”

Well, there’s an easy thought experiment we can do to try to figure that out.

Assuming there were 25 man rosters back then (I don’t know whether or not that’s true), there were 400 players in MLB back then. (25 * 16 is 400.) There are 750 players in the MLB now.

Now take the top 400 players in MLB today, subtract out all the minorities (no Pujols, no Cabrera, no Heyward, no Stanton, no Gio Gonzalez, no Johnny Cueto, no Felix Hernandez, no David Price, etc.), and replace them with the best white players you left out. Most of those will be mediocre players at the end of benches (like Tyler Pastornicky, for example) and the rest will be triple A players.

Are you ready to tell me that a pitcher facing the Braves would put up the same numbers facing Pastornicky, Janish, Hinske, etc. as he would facing Prado, Heyward, and Bourn? Are you ready to say that a hitter facing the Nationals rotation wouldn’t put up better numbers if they replaced Gio Gonzalez with someone like Joe Blanton? Because that’s the effect of barring a group of people from the game. The door doesn’t “swing both ways” unless you think the best Negro League player was worse than the worst MLB player. And from what I know about Josh Gibson (among others), I am pretty sure that is not true. Don’t think there’s any way you can say the pre-1947 era didn’t have a competitive advantage.

Tap Out

January 9th, 2013
7:01 pm

Change the name to “Hall of Those Who Didn’t Get Caught”.

Najeh Davenpoop

January 9th, 2013
7:01 pm

“The steroid cheats made the conscious choice to cheat. The players prior to 1947 didn’t make the decision about whether non whites could play or not, the commissioner and owners did.”

That’s a valid point, but that is an argument about character, not about competitive advantage. If you are going to rely on that to exclude steroid users, then character has to apply across the board to all Hall members. Does taking amphetamines make someone ineligible because of character issues? Does being a virulent and vocal racist make someone ineligible? Where is that line drawn and what is the justification for it?

Stuart

January 9th, 2013
7:03 pm

Jeff, Excellent article. The HOF is quickly turning into a joke. But you failed to mention the greatest injustice of them all: Pete Rose, the All Time Hits Leader. Anything Rose did that was seen as “damaging to the game” occurred AFTER he retired as a player.

canman

January 9th, 2013
7:03 pm

Biggio was awesome. His all out play was like Pete Rose. He absolutely should be in the hall.He will get in later. Looks the system works to me.

RD

January 9th, 2013
7:06 pm

Uh, it’s called ‘The Hall of Fame’. Not the hall of pretty good, the hall of above average or the hall of satisfactory. There are already too many people in the hall who don’t belong there.

Mark

January 9th, 2013
7:09 pm

Why should the system change when it has worked well forever. I certainly hope it isn’t changed to accomodate players that cheated to put up their numbers. And yes, even the ones that were good enough before they cheated(Bonds and Clemons). Bonds cheated foe sure and anyone with half a brain can figure out that the steroids delivered to the Clemons household wasn’t used only by the wife!!

John

January 9th, 2013
7:09 pm

Most athletes are poor role models. Americans obsession with athletes is sickening and says something about our society

Mark

January 9th, 2013
7:11 pm

RD

Very true. HOFers should be mentioned when people start naming their all-time lineups. Biggio – No. Good player but not HOFer.

Kane337

January 9th, 2013
7:12 pm

Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine better be first ballot Hall of Famer’s next year or some baseball writers heads are gonna roll.

Here is the potential ballot for next year….
http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2014.shtml

Jinxo1964

January 9th, 2013
7:12 pm

It’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good. If nobody gets in this year, so be it. I think it shows that the system is working exactly as it should.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
7:15 pm

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

http://baseballhall.org/hall-famers/rules-election/bbwaa

Bone

January 9th, 2013
7:15 pm

If Biggio should go, Murphy should have been a long time ago.

The larger problem is how these PED players cheated and how they cheated the fans of the game. Oh yea, they hit the homers and struck out many, but they took millions from the fans to become fake HOF’s. Companies have rules that if someone takes from other suppliers, or bribe someone for a sale, not only are they fired, but possible in jail. Apparently these ballplayers, where facts are considered false just because they said so, don’t live up to the same standards.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
7:17 pm

6. Automatic Elections: No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted.

Mark

January 9th, 2013
7:18 pm

Next years class should put in 2 only = Maddux coast in and Glavine gets in.

Mark

January 9th, 2013
7:19 pm

Loved Murph but he isn’t a HOFer.

72 Dawg

January 9th, 2013
7:19 pm

There are some stronger words then SLEAZE for BONDS, SOSA, and CLEMENS, but that will suffice for now. The day either is voted in they should close the doors of the hall for good.

tom

January 9th, 2013
7:22 pm

BORING!

"Chef" Tim Dix

January 9th, 2013
7:23 pm

Forget PED’s and this years vote for one second and consider this: Some “BB Writer”
will not vote for Greg Maddox simply to insure it will not be a unanimous vote.

That’s being more than a gatekeeper in my book.

Matt the Brave

January 9th, 2013
7:24 pm

From now on, the only HOF that I’ll pay attention to is the one at Turner Field. Dale’s already in that one anyway.

gsmith

January 9th, 2013
7:28 pm

good points jeff , but the problem is the hall of fame is not the hall of good for a long time??? never did i once think while i was watching chipper jones did i feel i was watching a hall of famer… he was a very solid player for a long time but i never though of him as one of the all time greats

Mr. Dithers

January 9th, 2013
7:29 pm

Comparing Biggio to Murphy is nuts. Biggio is one of 28 players in the history of major league baseball to garner 3000 hits. One of only 28. Murphy had a few good years, but not enough to warrant entry. Biggio belongs, Murphy doesn’t.
I am not sure what the point of this article is. Are you saying that only the election of Murphy, Morris and McGriff would salvage the reputation of the hall? Or that the suspected ‘roid users should have gotten more votes? Seems to me that the rejection of Big Head Bonds and ‘Roidin’ Roger is proof the system is working. The 3 M’s are not worthy, in my humble opinion, and the ‘roiders will have to wait for things to shake out. The fact they have to wait a few years is part of the price they have to pay. No need to junk the hall.

Mike

January 9th, 2013
7:30 pm

I have absolutely no problem with them skipping the steroid users. Yes it happened. Yes it was exciting at the time, but that fact is even worse. Not only did it cheat the game, it cheated every fan who actually go excited about the accomplishment. If they wont admit Pete Rose (deservedly so), then they shouldnt admit the steroid users who built entire careers on essential a false premise.

Mr. Thomas Anthony Jones, SR

January 9th, 2013
7:33 pm

Denying Bonds, Sosa, and Clemens entrance to Major League Baseball’s Hall of fame in Cooperstown was the most stupid thing I have ever heard. We a racist white trash in the Hall of Fame (Ty Cobb of the Detroit Tigers) and womanizers, but now that we have players who I actually paid money for my familty to see because like Mr.Bonds and Mr. Sosa. the dumbassed writers screw tthing up. If Bonds, Sosa, and Clemens can not be in the Hall of Fame then take Ty Cobb, the white racist out and all of the womanizers. America is full stupid lying Hypocrites.

jeffrey d

January 9th, 2013
7:34 pm

“To ignore the historic accomplishments of Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens is hard to justify”

Didn’t Bonds withdraw from the MLBPA because he was too big for them?

jarvis

January 9th, 2013
7:36 pm

Does being a racist or womanizer help you play baseball? I’m confused by your argument.

Mr. Dithers

January 9th, 2013
7:36 pm

This article and some of the comments highlights one of the things I’ve never liked about Braves’ fans: the narrow minded focus on the Braves as the focus of the baseball world. Murphy and McGriff wouldn’t be on anyone’s radar if they hadn’t played here. They were good, not great players, but their influence is exaggerated because they were the focus of all the attention here in Atlanta that didn’t go to pitchers. Every team has their Murphys and McGriffs, and none of them belong in the hall. Look at the bigger picture.

snellville tom

January 9th, 2013
7:39 pm

Since inception, the Hall of Fame has included character as a criteria for induction. Modern-era players who choose to circumvent natural talents through the use of PED’s knew what they were doing. Modern BBWA writers may want to overlook the decisions these players made; if so, please feel free to abstain from voting. And maybe, just maybe, a popular player simply didn’t have a great career over a sustained period to warrant election.

And why the hell aren’t Jim Kaat and Tommy John not in the HoF? Check their records, and career lengths.

Mr. Dithers

January 9th, 2013
7:39 pm

Biggio is one of 28 players in the history of major league baseball to garner 3000 hits. One of 28. That’s how he gets 388 votes and McGriff gets 118. That simple.

Dave

January 9th, 2013
7:39 pm

I think the writers got it right. None of the candidates should have gotten in. Most on merit, a few on the steroids issue. I’m from Atlanta, loved the Murph, but he’s just not HOF material. Close, but close doesn’t get you over the hump. Not even if you are a nice guy.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
7:40 pm

Braves’ fans: the narrow minded focus on the Braves as the focus of the baseball world.

As opposed to Yankee fans or Red Sox fans? Not hardly.

OldTimer

January 9th, 2013
7:40 pm

The Hall got it 100 % right. They will next year too, when they vote in Maddux and Glavine.

Tony Lima

January 9th, 2013
7:45 pm

I’ve long believed that letting journalists of any stripe have control over who gets in to a hall of fame is ridiculous. Here’s an idea: how about we let the players in the HOF vote on who gets in? If you want special categories for coaches, announcers, pitchers, and ambidextrous shortstops, that’s OK with me. But get the writers out of this — they know about as little as the average fan. Less than well-informed fans.

As for Biggio, his main contribution to the game was a rule restricting the armor that can be worn on a batter’s leading arm. You may recall that he regularly leaned into pitches which then glanced off his plastic shields. That this guy is even on the ballot is a travesty.

hit a single

January 9th, 2013
7:47 pm

Those that say Murphy should not be in the Hall of Fame doesn’t know crap about the game. Yea, now I wished he had of left the Braves team and gone after the big bucks. No he was loyal to a franchise because that is the way he was. Character should mean something. He played on teams that he had no one hitting behind him. He was consistently pitched around. His best numbers were when Horner hit behind him and the other time he had no one. A good baseball man would recognize this. I have no desire to go to the Hall. You have guys in there that were caught with dope. Hell yea character should mean something. It kept Rose out so it ought to help put the Murph in along with his play. And oh yea Biggio should be in also.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
7:53 pm

Jeff @ 7:48

Good point. You have to judge players in the era they played in. That’s why it’s hard to compare across the eras. Cobb, Honus Wagner, etc. played mainly in the dead ball era, other guys played in the era of artificial turf, etc. That’s why I’d go with people who were dominant in the times and under the rules, they played under.

Take Aaron and Ruth as an example, if Ruth played in Aaron’s time, he would’ve hit a lot of HRs. If Aaron played in Ruth’s time, he would’ve hit a lot of HRs. They both played when they played, though, and Aaron wound up with the higher number.

JSS

January 9th, 2013
7:53 pm

Dang, Davenpoop and Hillbilly D hitting homers (posts wise) like they are on the Clear! That is excellent stuff! Anytime the name of the great Joe Falls crosses an AJC Blog, it is just gold!

Look, 8 teams minus the Latin players and African-American players was tainted… Ruth would have hit homers regardless, still the game cheated itself… 1948-1961 shows that, when those players crossed over to MLB, it was seismic…

JSS

January 9th, 2013
7:58 pm

@ Jarvis…
They don’t consider those attributes character flaws…

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
7:59 pm

JSS

I used to read Joe Falls in the Sporting News. He was always one of my favorite baseball writers.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:01 pm

this is an indication of how stupidly knee jerk the writers for the AJC are.

George

January 9th, 2013
8:05 pm

What a crock!!! Stop the hall voting because juicers didn’t get in? The majority of voters got it absolutely correct. Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, and McGwire don’t belong in the Hall of Fame…neither does Pete Rose. They knew they were cheating, but did it anyway. Sad part about it, Bonds and Clemens could have made it without the juice. As for Rose, I’ve been in baseball clubhouses on and off for more than 65 years, and there are many signs warning against gambling. To make matters worse, Rose lied his a** off when confronted with hard evidence of his betting on baseball. I say keep anyone out who is reasonably suspected of breaking the rules. I think there is ample evidence to prove the guilt of the ones previously mentioned.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
8:05 pm

Those were great days to devour The Sporting News.

They really were. I bet I haven’t looked at one in 25 years or more.

Vinnny3

January 9th, 2013
8:06 pm

What needs to be overhauled is letting people like Jeff Schultz elect members of the baseball HOF and call themselves part of the BBWAA. Schultz writes like 2 baseball related articles a month. Biggio’s the man. McGriff was great but he wasn’t a C, 2B, CF. Maybe that helps explain some disparity.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:08 pm

I agree on McGriff. but Tim Raines, when combined with the known drug use, is too borderline – 2600 hits is not that terrific (I would NOT have voted Larkin in either); Dale Murphy had a career 261 average and less than 2200 hits – Dwight Evans AND Dave Parker are FAR more worthy; I think McGriff with the RBI’s & HR’s is worthy- but hit total is low/borderline. Jack Morris was a gamer, but he pitched mediocerly too frequently; his ERA is 3.90 – that is below average for even this period of time. however, Biggio has 3000 hits and is #6 in doubles. Because he played in HOuston he should be ignored? This is equal to a toddlers temper tantrum.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:11 pm

ah; now you are making me think you are a liberal with that marginalization ethos. this was a dumb article – if I was publisher of the Red & Black I’d reject it. The guys who have certified HOF numbers are under the sterroid cloud. I remember Bonds from 92-93 – I thought his dad was a better player. I’m a Sox fan, so I support Clemens, but his longevity does make you wonder. Palmeiro was a certified user. Sosa we KNOW cheated – caught with a corked bat – same with McGwire. You cheat you might make some $$, but that cheating should not prompt honors. selah.

JSS

January 9th, 2013
8:12 pm

Kaat and John are penalized for their length of career… It is like Sutton, and the Reggie Jackson mentality about such pitchers exist…

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:13 pm

2 strikes on the liberal at bat – don’t go all Jay Bookman on me. Your examples should not prompt this bleeding heart emotional response. BTW, the more voters the more honest an election you get. You like the Olympics when 1 or 2 bribed judges can tilt the medal count?

GB.s Hamburgers

January 9th, 2013
8:14 pm

Jeff, America is a dumbed down society. It looks like a pretty normal process with that in mind.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
8:15 pm

True, Morris’ ERA was a bit on the high side but remember he pitched his entire career against the DH, in the AL, which also tended to have smaller ball parks. That’s probably worth .15-.40 points on his ERA, depending on whose analysis you believe.

The thing I remember about him was that he was a big game pitcher.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:17 pm

For Mr. blabber mouths edification – biggio had 668 doubles – about 300 more than Dale Murphy; he also scored over 1800 runs – which is 600 more than Mr. Murphy; Murphy had less than 100 MORE RBI than Biggio – and Biggio was a lead off guy most of his life; Murphy’s job was to drive guys in. To feign support for Murphy and denigrate a genuine HOF career like Biggio indicates a fellow either braindead or drunk. Or, utterly biased. If biased, in the long line of work.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:18 pm

big game a lot – but in 92 with Toronto at a still rather young age of 37 (although with a ton of innings on his arm)- he got shelled in the WS twice – the Jay’s won inspite of him. Morris was a great pitcher. Just not HOF to me. Schilling is borderline. Might get in.

JSS

January 9th, 2013
8:19 pm

@ Hillbilly…
I was lucky enough to get him everyday from Detroit while in college in Michigan (we were 40 miles away) and I actually got a Detroit News subscription just to read him… Tremendous!

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:20 pm

Mr. Dithers – Biggio also is #6 – that is RIGHT – #6 ALLTIME in doubles; with over 1800 runs scored. He did his job.

Mr. Dithers

January 9th, 2013
8:22 pm

I hear you, Jeff, but if it were that easy to hang around and get to 3000 hits, a lot more players would have done it. Biggio not only means longevity, but consistency, adaptability, reliability and good health. And all with the Astros. Something to be said for that.

Joey M

January 9th, 2013
8:22 pm

@Najeh Davenpoop

You tried to make the argument that Tyler Pastornicky and Paul Janish would be professional players if we still had 8 teams per league. Sorry, they wouldn’t. Everybody’s numbers would be different. May starting pitchers would not be pitching. The players today would be facing the best of the best. Everybody’s numbers would suffer. We still have players from Cuba that are not allowed to play. Are you really going to tell me that if we add the Cuban players that the players playing today would not be as good as they are today? That stats across the board would suffer?

Black and Hispanic players should have been in MLB, NFL, and NBA from day 1. Anything that eliminates a person because of the color of their skin is wrong. Just like telling somebody that they need Affirmative Action to get a job because that person cannot get that job on their own merit. One day, race will not count. I look forward to that day.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
8:25 pm

I’ve seen Nolan Ryan shelled, too. Every pitcher gets hammered from time to time. Morris has 38 more wins than Shilling and 563 more innings pitched in 2 fewer years than Schilling’s career.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:26 pm

say what you will – of all the guys mentioned by Mr. schultz – only 1 guy has definitive HOF #ers – BIGGIO. 3000 hits; over 1800 runs and #6 alltime in doubles. If Schultz did not consider Biggio great at any point in his career, his head was just too far up his bowels.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:30 pm

Only thing that gets Schilling borderline is his spectacular work during the post season. as indicated, borderline. other stat geeks indicate Schilling has the best K to walk ratio in the history of baseball. but, that would not get him in. at least with a 3.46 ERA he pitched consistently good. 3.9 is awful for consideration of the HOF.

Ken Stallings

January 9th, 2013
8:32 pm

In my firm view, it is well beyond disgraceful that the BBWAA failed to elect any player from this excellent lineup to the Hall of Fame. I completely agree with keeping the steroid tainted players like Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire out. However, that leaves a half dozen players on the ballot who should have been elected: Fred McGriff, Tim Raines, Craig Biggio, Jack Morris, and Mike Piazza. I’m also going to add Dale Murphy to that list but he should not even have been on this ballot because he should have been elected years ago.

There is nothing other than sheer arrogance to describe what is going on here. The BBWAA voters have turned stingy into stupid.

As a group, these voters should be ashamed of themselves. They as a group have created the most degree of controversy surrounding the Hall of Fame in its entire existence. Their conduct has brought shame upon the Hall of Fame.

Bud Selig should do two things immediately.

First, he should set up a committee of living Hall of Fame veterans to review the candidacy of all passed over players on this ballot and allow them to vote an unlimited number in. Included with that instruction should be strict direction that the steroid tainted players are not eligible for selection by this committee.

Second, Selig should strip the BBWAA of their privilege of voting for the Hall of Fame and that should be a permanent loss of the privilege.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:32 pm

Morris had 3800 IP; Schilling only 3200. so, the career is not too much different. also, schilling appeared in 569 games, morris 549, a little more than half a season. as stated, to me schilling is borderline.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:34 pm

I’d agree on Piazza too. Greatest slugging catcher of all time.

William

January 9th, 2013
8:34 pm

Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, should never and will never be included in the all time great players of baseball.
mid – level ability cheaters who used PID to excel.
They’re all like a 70 year old who pops a couple of V’s to brag to his buddies how he banged the stripper for a whole hour ….. Funny to watch but don’t belong in the John Holms HOF …

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:34 pm

I’d agree on Piazza too. Greatest slugging catcher of all time.

JSS

January 9th, 2013
8:34 pm

Morris’s first years in Detroit were played with some of the worst outfields and corner players in baseball history… And people forget that in 1982, check his ERA, he came and had 33 decisions, that was huge, he pitched deep in games… Morris is an enigma like Carlton (not comparing them talent wise, personality)…

Jeff

January 9th, 2013
8:35 pm

Do a search on google of the top players of the 80’s (or similar) – it is near impossible to find one that does not include Dale Murphy.

For someone who grew up in the 80’s, Murph was easily seen as not just a “very good” or “great” player but clearly one of the few best. It would have been a joke to say Rice or Gwynn or Boggs were greater (given Murph’s HR/RBI production). Just look at the value of each one’s rookie cards at the time throughout the decade.

Murph will constantly be overshadowed by how minimal his stats looked compared to the Steroid Generation that came the next decade but just compare his stats from 1980 – 1987 versus any other player. This is NOT just a few years. And, yes Murphy was as much the top player (or 2nd or 3rd) in baseball for 5+ years as Koufax may have been the top pitcher for only 5 or so years.

Longetivity should be a factor in voting in a candidate but it should not be a must. Murphy played game after game for many years and just simply wore his body out without modern medical wonders to help him. Just like some cars are designed for high performance but short mileage and others for low speeds but long mileage, players like Murph had a high peak performance but short lifespan while others like Biggio were a medium performance but long lifespan.

The Hall of FAME – Murphy was indeed famous – I challenge you to ask anyone over 30 or so who has a slight wit of what baseball is and they will know who he is.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:37 pm

schilling played with some lousy Philly teams. for me, Morris is below the borderline. but, I watched him throw.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
8:37 pm

Piazza was basically a first baseman playing behind the plate. His defense wasn’t good.

Bud Selig can’t do anything about the Hall of Fame (that’s probably a good thing). The Baseball Hall of Fame is a separate entity, independent of MLB.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:38 pm

Jeff – if you offered to trade me Murphy for Rice i’d laugh my butt off. Rice was far, far better player.

JSS

January 9th, 2013
8:38 pm

As much I detest Barry Bonds when anybody calls him a “mid-level talent” that is just crazy talk…

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:43 pm

5 + years, yes – but the drop off from that peak was precipitous. Rice had 8 excellent years, from 75 – 86, with very good years inbetween – and those peak years were better than Murphy’s peak years; Murphy’s peak was 5 great years in 6 years; with little prior and very good years after. Not sustained excellence. and, IMO, Rice was close to borderline. Make Murphy far below borderline. Heck, Dwight evans I’d rate higher than Murphy.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:44 pm

2 MVP years will get you famous.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:46 pm

I’d probably trade Fred LYnn for Murphy, but I’d have to think really, really hard.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:47 pm

plus, murphy is a well established great human. it is worth a lot.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:48 pm

BTW, in almost 3000 games played, Barry Bonds DOES NOT HAVE 3000 hits. He is a steroid baby.

JSS

January 9th, 2013
8:49 pm

I got to live in 5 of the great baseball towns in America in 1970s (Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Boston, New York City, and Chicago), in the 80s (Detroit, Boston, and Philadelphia)… I saw Clemente, Aaron, Frank Robinson, and Rose… I saw Gibson, Carlton, Palmer, and Jenkins multiple times… You guys are way too tough on Bonds, as young player he had the quickest bat in the zone I ever saw and that was faster than Aaron who was the gold standard… No juice can give you that, that is from Olympus…

wooooo

January 9th, 2013
8:50 pm

Just because Schultz doesn’t like the outcome doesn’t mean we need to blow the whole thing up.

Really?

January 9th, 2013
8:53 pm

Geez, who woke up on the wrong side of the bed?
I wouldn’t have voted any of this group in (maybe Dale). Just because no one is deemed worthy we have to junk the whole system? I think not.
Wish we could have done the same with the Presidential election honestly.

drew

January 9th, 2013
8:54 pm

You really are a non-stop complainer Jeff….the BEST statement I’ve heard about voting is not every great player goes to the Hall of Fame. There’s good, great, and then Hall of Fame. Dale Murphy peaked a few years…McGriff also.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
8:55 pm

JSS

To me that’s the sad part of the Bonds story. He was probably a Hall of Famer, without the juice. He has to live with his choices, though.

Not So Casual Observer

January 9th, 2013
8:58 pm

N. D…poop,

Truly sad the minorities are so intent on making RACE an issue in most everything.

The MLB players of any era have only those against whom they competed as a measuring stick. Babe Ruth was a truly remarkable athlete for his time and for ALL TIME. As far as I know he is one of only 2 players to hit at least 30 home runs in a year and steal home at least 10 times in his career. Lou Gehrig is the other.

Until the steroid era only ten players hit 50 or more home runs in one year; Ruth, Mantle, Maris, Kiner, Mays, Foster, Mize, Wilson, Fox and Greenburg. So, D. poop, only two minorities in the 35-40 years after Jackie Robinson were able to make the grade (given 50 as the grade). Now there are 25-35 and I do not care because most are cheaters after the first 10. What does this say? Likely nothing, just like your posts.

Ruth, by the way, hit 714 career home runs and spent the first years of his career in the “dead ball” era and as a pitcher.

Baseball, more than any sport, has relied on statistics to measure the greatness of players for over 100 years. GREATNESS as a measure kept the list of elected members empty for this year. So what?

In my view, using steroids taints the careers of those who are obviously guilty, despite the pleas of the union shill. OJ Simpson was found “Not Guilty” by the jury but that by no means makes him innocent. Same goes for the cheaters and Pete Rose. Never elect any of them.

I will close with a paraphrase from a Ted Williams interview. The writer attempted to diminish the “Splinter’s” career by suggesting he would have a difficult time with the relief pitchers and hard throwers of the years after Ted’s retirement. He finally asked, “What do you think you would hit against these pitchers of today?” Ted replied, “Probably about .325″. The writer asked “Only .325? But you were a .343 life-time hitter, why so much lower?” Well, Ted replied, “I am 73 years old.”

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
8:58 pm

hmmm. our intrepidly pathetic reporter glibly states that biggio was NEVER great – over 200 hits in a season? NOT great? REALLY? He scored 146 runs one season – NOT great? REALLY? Perhaps Mr. Schultz is not doing his due diligence and is simply either padding his resume or waiting for retirement. hmmm.

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
9:01 pm

JSS – without the power bonds got from his magic medicine, he was an excellent hitter – lousy, absolutely lousy defensive OF. His pre steroid hits never came close to 200. He lounged around 150 or so most years. After he got juiced, his gargantuan walk total really prevented him from getting hits – and, did not do much to help SF win the WS. Not much at all.

Mariage Parfait Gueze

January 9th, 2013
9:02 pm

How many votes did Tony G get?

Paddy O

January 9th, 2013
9:02 pm

wooo- yeah, that would like taking advice from your toddler on your monthly budget.

JSS

January 9th, 2013
9:04 pm

Paddy O…
Dewey Evans should be in because I believe defense is an actual part of the game…

What I truly hate about the Hall of Fame is that it was devolved into either the Hitter’s HOF or the Winning Pitcher’s HOF…

HALL OF SHAME

January 9th, 2013
9:04 pm

MR SCHULTZ SHOULD BE THE ONE BLOWN UP, NOT THE HALL OF FAME…NO ONE ON DRUGS SHOULD BE IN…THE PLAYERS BEING SELECTED NOW ARE GENERALLY SUB PAR ANYWAY…..SCHELTZEEE SHOULD WRITE ABOUT SOMETHING HE KNOWS….HMMMMM..???…

Jeff

January 9th, 2013
9:05 pm

I agree that Biggio should be in – but his longetivity is the reason for it (similar to Ripken).

Both Biggio and Murphy were 7-time all-stars but Murphy won 2 MVP’s as well as Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year in 1987. Biggio was maybe player of the week a few times but never was thought as the top player in baseball.

Biggio also only hit over .300 4 times and his run totals were largely assisted by having Bagwell driving him in. Ultimately, Biggio’s high career #’s came from many good seasons with really no seasons where he was clearly seen as the best player in the game.

Longetivity is a rarity in baseball that players like Biggio should be rewarded for. However, on the other hand, players like Murphy should not be penalized entirely because their careers were not long.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
9:06 pm

I believe defense is an actual part of the game…

The Wizard is the only player to go in for defense, in a long time.

Jim

January 9th, 2013
9:10 pm

Mike Schimdt of Phillie had it right today. Sosa and the other guys all made a butt load of money in their career, playing “dirty” and now they will pay a price. End of story. The HOF may not be perfect in its selection process but it is far from broken. I do not look up to any sports figure as a role model as part of selection and/or awards. However, using steroids or HGH – CHEATING and I for one, do have a problem with that. Evidently, most of the selectors did too.

JSS

January 9th, 2013
9:12 pm

Oh that is all that guy got out of what Davenpoop said? The well was poisoned, you took away more than half of the players on the Earth and you expect people not to understand that it was not the best that was to be offered! It is human performance… It would be like I as a fan of track and field arguing that track distance races were better before the people in East Africa and the Rift Valley in Sub-Saharan Africa were finally allowed to train and compete… There is NO WAY that the difference cannot be seen!

tree rollins

January 9th, 2013
9:12 pm

The vote went exactly as it should have. The steroid guys completely rigged all their stats. Of the other guys, Biggio most closely fits the mold of longetivity and consistency, along with Morris. Murphy didn’t do it for long enough. Get over it!

tree rollins

January 9th, 2013
9:15 pm

Tim Raines was good on a team that had great players like Andre Dawson. Glavine and Maddox will get in – Rico Carty and McGriff will not (nor will Andrew Jones).

JSS

January 9th, 2013
9:15 pm

What the heck is 9:06? Long time since one of those slipped in…

GT Alum

January 9th, 2013
9:16 pm

Najeh -

Your assertion that players before 1957 didn’t have to play against Latin players is not exactly true. There were Latin players (primarily Cubans) in MLB since the early 1900s, and a number of Latinos were playing in MLB by the 30s and 40s. The distinction is that they had light skin, while Latino players that looked black were segregated in the Negro Leagues.

JSS

January 9th, 2013
9:20 pm

Hillbilly…
What are they going to do when Omar Vizquel comes up? SMH

T-Bone

January 9th, 2013
9:20 pm

Fans should get a vote. Retired players should get a vote. BB writers should get a vote. They should count a third each.

tree rollins

January 9th, 2013
9:22 pm

It’s not like there are a lot of great black pitchers in baseball anyway – maybe some of you confused this for basketball! The Babe was the most incredible player ever – by almost every measure!

tree rollins

January 9th, 2013
9:24 pm

Fans are too dumb to vote. Look at the All Star games.

tree rollins

January 9th, 2013
9:26 pm

Can you imagine the fans voting? ‘I want Murphy in there! I want the Chippa!’. Give me a break!

JSS

January 9th, 2013
9:28 pm

Light skinned to Caucasians Latins were not generally the best players in the region… My soon to be father-in-law who followed the old Mexican leagues told me about all of the great negro players from Latin America and the Caribe before WWII that he saw as a kid,,, It is not even a fair disagreement…

wally

January 9th, 2013
9:31 pm

I have been a baseball fan all of my life nearly 64 years. I hate it that the game is in such bad shape. The first thing to restoring credability to the game is more drug testing. #2 Shorten the season, it like all pro sports the season is far to long. The salaries are far to high. Though many may disagree the game was far greater in the late sixties and early seventies than it is now. That is debatable.. I just wish that there was more we could do to improve the game. I am afraid that pro and college football has move ahead of the game of baseball.

Najeh Davenpoop

January 9th, 2013
9:34 pm

“I agree that not having African American players in baseball pre-1947 helped whites. But I think Babe Ruth would’ve been great regardless. Just saying.”

That’s fair, but Barry Bonds would have been great without steroids too. Just saying that steroids are not the only competitive advantage in baseball’s history.

tree rollins

January 9th, 2013
9:34 pm

Shultz is like the ’shock-jock’ of sportswriters! Let me see – what can I say that will stir the pot today?

Stuart

January 9th, 2013
9:36 pm

Somebody please tell me how it is baseball purity to reject the All Time Home Run Leader (Bonds) for ALLEGEDLY taking a substance that was not even punishable by Baseball while he played, and to reject the All Time Hits Leader (Rose) for something he did AFTER he retired as a player, BUT we celebrate a pitcher in the HOF (Gaylord Perry) who was famous for one thing …. CHEATING! In fact, Perry even wrote a book about how he cheated by doctoring the ball and throwing spitters.

tree rollins

January 9th, 2013
9:38 pm

Nice job Jeff – gimme some Tim Raines in that HOF today – right next to Honus Wagner. It’s a classic Jeff.

Najeh Davenpoop

January 9th, 2013
9:41 pm

“Truly sad the minorities are so intent on making RACE an issue in most everything.

The MLB players of any era have only those against whom they competed as a measuring stick. Babe Ruth was a truly remarkable athlete for his time and for ALL TIME. As far as I know he is one of only 2 players to hit at least 30 home runs in a year and steal home at least 10 times in his career. Lou Gehrig is the other.”

I am not black. I didn’t “make this an issue” — it is an issue whether or not you want to acknowledge it. The point of my first post was not to disparage Babe Ruth, it was to point out that he had a competitive advantage at least as significant as Bonds or McGwire or Sosa. There are two arguments for keeping steroid users out of the HOF — the competitive advantage argument and the character argument — and yet there are players already in the Hall who fail one or the other or both. That is the point I was making, not that Babe Ruth sucks. Somehow that seems to have been lost in translation.

JSS

January 9th, 2013
9:42 pm

McGriff is silly to me, and Baseball Writers should know better… He hit homers in two of the graveyards for power hitters (Exhibition Stadium and Jack Murphy)! The 1995 Strike robbed him of 500 HRs…

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
9:42 pm

Agreed that baseball was better in the 60’s and early 70’s (didn’t really see the ’50s). There were more truly great players playing then, in my opinion. I wouldn’t shorten the season. The grind is what sets baseball apart from the other sports. You can’t ride a hot streak all year, sooner or later, the league catches up to you. I would go back to just 2 teams from each league in the playoffs, though. I’d go back to the old East and West Divisions and if you can’t win your divisions, go home, you don’t deserve to play in October.

I’d also raise the mound back to 15″. It restore balance to the game and a good many people in baseball believe due to the change in throwing angles, it would cut down on arm problems. That’s never going to happen but that’s what I’d like to see.

Sonny Clusters

January 9th, 2013
9:46 pm

It’s good to see some baseball being blogged on here tonight. There’s lots to catch up on and we was wondering when we could jump in with some pithy baseball commentary. First, we was sad to see the Clermont has been sold and we was wondering if a certain “class act” former baseball player was going to be affected by the sale? We was also wondering where beet writers are going to go now for entertainment? If we was a betting Clusters we would bet that the Falcons are going to win the first playoff game and we was quick to note that Ol’ Jeff was saying they have to win because they always fail in the playoffs and we was wondering if that shouldn’t be true of the Braves, too? We are still hurting from the play-in game and was thinking the approach ought to be different this year in hopes of different/better results. As to the HOF, if Murphy isn’t worthy then we don’t think anybody else is either. Some who want to call a baseball player a “class act” need to get acquainted with Murphy who really was and is just that. As to the indian head on the baseball cap we was thinking that’s confusing because the Braves already have a baseball head mascot and now they’re trying to go with a different head on the caps. If it was us who had to decide we’d retire Homer the Brave because he’s too much like Mr Met and we’d find a redneck to be the mascot and he could come out and walk around when they play Country Boy between innings. That’s all for now.

tree rollins

January 9th, 2013
9:47 pm

Bonds deserves HOF status like Lance Armstrong deserves all his trophies – NOT! So if I cheat on my taxes more than you I deserve more money cause you were too wimpy to do it!

BobDawg

January 9th, 2013
9:48 pm

Jeff, I’ve been to the HOF and alot of these guys are already “in” with their memorabilia and “stuff”.. I will make a bet with you and this always brings alot of conversation…. If Pete Rose backed a truck up Monday to Cooperstown and said he wanted all his stuff out of there and his name black marked on all he record books…They would call for an emergency vote and get him inducted… He has that much “stuff” and records that are already in there….

Stuart

January 9th, 2013
9:56 pm

To Tree Rollins: Name me ONE baseball investigation, or legal investigation, that found Barry Bonds GUILTY of using steroids. There isn’t one. So how can anybody conclusively say that he cheated? Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. But I thought people were innocent until proven guilty in this country

JSS

January 9th, 2013
9:56 pm

Clusters cracking on Homer the Brave!!!

Stuart

January 9th, 2013
10:00 pm

LOL We all should be cracking on Homer The Brave. What a stupid mascot. I’ll take Chief Noc-A-Homa any day of the week over Homer

Wilbo

January 9th, 2013
10:05 pm

Maybe if Dale Murphy had spent more time learning how to look less like a fool with that awkward, ugly one handed whiff at the down & away curveball, than he did making ice cream commercials– he’d have a shot. He had good years and then looked AWFUL at the end of his career. You can’t die that fast and look that bad and make it into the HOF. Doesn’t deserve it, won’t get it. Period. Give it up.

Hall vote worked perfectly. Obvious roid cheaters didn’t get in and I think that is exactly how most fans want it. Borderliners got borderliner numbers just as they should.

I will agree with you, I’d like to have seen Fred get more support.

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
10:05 pm

Look at pictures of Bonds in 91 or so as a Pirate, then at the end of his career. The difference is obvious (same with Sosa and McGwire). In fairness though, it may be as much HGH as steroids. Either way, they all blew up overnight.

Jeff2

January 9th, 2013
10:07 pm

Falcons comparison – Many people seem to think Murphy in his prime (1983-1985) was maybe comparable to what Matt Ryan is today for the Falcons. Yes, Ryan is very good but is not an unanimous elite player at present, and he will need many seasons like 2012 to be a football HOF candidate.

On the other hand, Murphy in his prime was more comparable to what Aaron Rodgers is right now (established MVP, easily considered a top QB in the league). Rodgers is easily thought of as a football HOF candidate already. But, suppose Rodgers gets hurt in a couple of years, starts to drop off, and then has to retire – do we just totally write-off his greatness over the past 5+ years?

How could a shrine to football ignore the impact a player like Rodgers has had and how can baseball ignore the impact that a player like Murphy had on the 80’s?

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
10:09 pm

Here’s a couple of interesting articles for anybody who cares to read them.

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-steroids-loom-major-college-football-080545936–spt.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=167798328

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
10:10 pm

Well I got moderated……..here’s an interesting article

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-steroids-loom-major-college-football-080545936–spt.html

Hillbilly D

January 9th, 2013
10:11 pm

And here’s another one

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=167798328

JSS

January 9th, 2013
10:17 pm

@ Hillbilly..
Thumbs up!

StingerSplash

January 9th, 2013
10:21 pm

Biggio excelled at three positions and finished with over 3,000 hits. This is what you scoff at, Mr. Schultz?

BehindEnemyLines

January 9th, 2013
10:27 pm

Sorry Jeff but there IS criteria, and the voters appear to have largely followed it.

Just because it doesn’t agree with what would have been my own personal ballot (Biggio, Murphy, Morris, Raines and Piazza) doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist … it just means that there isn’t a strong enough consensus about those guys.

Mike A

January 9th, 2013
11:23 pm

Stuart – you are correct. Though it’s certainly likely many of these mentioned players did steroids, the actual concrete evidence against Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Piazza, Bagwell, and others is pretty thin in most cases – and none in others. Sadly, the writers are judge, jury, and executioner and they’re ignoring this fact. As a baseball fan, I find their attitude disheartening and unfair.

Steroids have been prevalent in baseball since the 80s, and would have been prevalent in the 20s, 50s, whenever. Someone mentioned Mike Schmidt – he was actually one of the few past players to be honest and admit he probably would have done steroids to keep up with everyone else. It was the culture of the time and the writers knew exactly what was going on, even if they so desperately try to cling to their moral superiority now.

Let them in. History will define their accomplishments. Heck, a few years down the line when genetic modification takes over sport, people may long for the steroid days.

Thomas Brown

January 10th, 2013
12:25 am

I feel like we did make a statement in this year’s Hall of Fame vote to keep PED players from getting in, all of them. Thank you for your vote on that, despite the high numbers some PED players got.

I am not such much concerned about the high numbers, as I am convinced that those voters should have their votes removed.

Look, we dealt with this Heisman Trophy vote for all these years, too, and then finally recently somehow all the complaints were taken to heart and now the right guys are winning it. How did we do that ? By complaining. Still, the vote happens BEFORE the BCS National Championship 2-Team Play-Off Title Game. That cannot be. Wait a couple weeks. The Bowl Season is not gratuitous, it is the culmination and proof of the season. Manti Te’o is a perfect example of this Notre Dame. Did he deserve the Heisman Trophy now I ask, or Johnny Football ?

Barry Bonds and Rogers Clemens have no business in the Hall of anything, except the Hall of Shame. To have a competitive advantage, they lied, and they took PED.

NUMBERS

Numbers get you in the Hall of Fame in any sport, and Dale Murphy doesn’t have them. And, I think you know that. I know he knows it from his comments here again today. And, he dropped off the face of the earth after his playing days. Hank Aaron has more to say FOR the game even now than Dale Murphy ever did. Get on TV. Announce some games as a color-analyst. Coach something. Do something. No. I went to more of the Dale Murphy games than anyone. Anyone who went to those games, saw me there and remembers me. He had a couple great seasons. He could have been Hall of Fame. The game took its toll on Dale Murphy, and gentleman Hank Aaron well he kept putting up the numbers and during his retirement, has had several out-spoken comments about the game which kept him relevant long-after his playing days. Hank Aaron was always HOF from day 1.

You look at the Atlanta Braves and none of the current players have any hope of ever making the HOF. We let the other teams have the top stars, while we sit on the sidelines and steadfastly maintain we don’t have the money to pay them to have them here.

John Smoltz ? Yes, he’s in 1st ballot and everyone knows why Mr. Clutch. Great hitter. Starter and then surgery and closer.

Tom Glavine ? This is a yes or no, pass or fail, not a 51 %. If it were give me a percentage, I’d put 51 % on it. Not so much a great pitcher, oh wait, he comes a…change-up. Was a good hitter, not so much a fielder. I liked him. 51 %.

Chipper Jones ? I’d give him much higher than Tom Glavine.

Greg Maddux. Yes. Golden Glove. Could hit a spot until the cows came home. World Series Champ.

Phil Niekro. I’ve known Phil Niekro and his family for a long time. Yes. He was a great fielder and a great hitter, and I liked Phil Niekro. Those were great games to go watch here. Golden Glove.

Eddie Matthews I did not get to see that much of at the end of his career here and didn’t follow Milwaukee. He, played with Boston Braves also, and yes. Detroit Tigers World Series 1968 I did follow Detroit those years and went there to those games, that Championship along with the Milwaukee Braves 1957 World Series Title – he was always in in my mind for those 2 Titles.

Warren Spawn never played baseball for the Atlanta Braves. He played for Boston Braves and was the Ace of the World Series Winners Milwaukee Braves, Spawn Sain and a Day of Rain. So, yes. Not Atlanta Braves though.

Who do we have like these guys ? We have a Starter who is great, and our Atlanta Braves did not even Start him in our loss knocking-us out of the Play-Offs 2012. I said that was a problem before the 1-game to end the season. I am saying I told you so, again, now.

Thank you for your votes Jeff A. Schultz. You did us proud.

allball

January 10th, 2013
12:42 am

most players today are juiced up—records don’t matter anymore with all these steroid aided home runs. Shut down the hall of fame.

Thomas Brown

January 10th, 2013
12:55 am

Yes, we shut it down this year – thanks to Jeff A. Schultz.

Who else at the AJ-C has a vote in the Baseball Hall of Fame ?

Despite the Party Line, of course, the AJ-C is wrong-headed about a Writer earning the Right to have a Vote in all these sports we have in Atlanta and cover in Atlanta. If someone has a chance to represent the AJ-C in his sport and is recognized for that, by all means that Writer should vote. No one has ever questioned that the intention of an AJ-C Writer covering his sport took a hamburger to say something nice, or vote up a player.

AJ-C, in time, must change this policy. Readers of a newspaper deserve and expect that that paper DOES MAKE THE NEWS.

You decide what to say and when.

Take the BCS National Championship Game. I am sorry, but here Jeff A. Schultz dropped the ball. All season long, every week, Jeff A. Schultz wrote articles about the collegiate football season and who would win and the background details which were important.

Then, we have the Title Game and

NO BLOG.

We have to have our local Writers, who earn that Right, to VOTE in ALL THESE, not just some Baseball HOF. The AP Poll is the Most Respected College Football Poll, and always has been. The Writers themselves, and ESPN, and talk-heads, and call-in shows, and Blogs, and other TV and Radio personalities DO MAKE THE NEWS.

You don’t just report on it. By the very nature of your Profession you

SHAPE

the sports’ world.

You owe it to us to explain this to the AJ-C.

I would.

Daily.

I do often.

I did again now.

Surfer Joe

January 10th, 2013
1:30 am

All eight indicted members of the 1919 Chicago White Sox were “exonerated in legal proceedings”.

Thomas Brown

January 10th, 2013
4:40 am

And, none of these guys ever did PED. Look, they were all doing it. It wasn’t their fault. It was Major League Baseball’s Fault. The Player’s Association kept it going on even longer. It’s wrong. Their NUMBERS skewed all of baseball stats historically, forever. How do you feel about how you watched Mark McGwire and what he did, knowing what you know now about him and about the Union ? They could have and should have banned those substances, and they should have tested for those substances.

I want no part of those in the Baseball Hall of Fame, nor Pete Rose.

I was duped by Major League Baseball, and their Union. Just imagine not banning those substances, and even worse, just imagine not releasing the list of those who tested positive for PED and all the others who used Clear or others they thought were undetectable PED.

In all sports, taking advantage of an unfair advantage against others, is clearly immoral, as is posting a post which says one acronym ending in “A” then reprinting it once it is removed and leaving the “A” out instead arguing that (1) you never said “A” in the 8:22 am post Monday and (2) arguing that a common phrase unable to obtain any GOOGLE search other than kiss my b… is instead butt when the post at 8:22 am Monday ended in A, thus making the end of the 5-word posted acronym redundant 2-words at the end.

EVERYONE knows anyway.

JSS

January 10th, 2013
5:50 am

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Get your morning idiocy, the saga continues…

Thomas Brown

January 10th, 2013
5:54 am

JSS January 8th, 2013 2:32 pm

______________________________________________
“I just don’t care which of the 32 teams wins ultimately.”
______________________________________________

JSS

January 10th, 2013
6:29 am

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There’s a wanker posting…

Mulk

January 10th, 2013
6:32 am

Because they are not in, Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe are WAY more famous than most of the people in the hall. If a person wanted to be remembered forever, then cheat or gamble. You will be brought up every year when discussing inclusion. 3,000 hits, 300 wins, 500 homeruns and you are in IF those people that should be protecting the integrity (steroids, juiced baseballs, ballpark dimensions) of the game are doing their job. Baseball writers, including Schultz) can VOTE on the rest.

JSS

January 10th, 2013
6:50 am

@ Mulk…
Since you brought up Joe Jackson, two questions… Do you think since the Centennial of the1920 banishment is coming up, do you think pressure can be brought to bare on on Selig to revisit the issue of the “lifetime ban?” Life is over for Jackson, death should enough to satisfy even the heartless…

Oh, do “you” think Ichiro gets in the Hall eventually?

Thomas Brown

January 10th, 2013
6:53 am

Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson, I would say are famous as you put it because they are not in the Hall of Fame. Shoeless dealt with his lost but remembered admission, recanted after the admission; and Pete Rose deals with his admission. We don’t have to discuss because they did admit.

Both.

That is a bigger blot on them than the PED, in my mind, because PED were not banned and not tested for a long time with insistence by the Union. I remain steadfast that PED not be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, and agree with Jeff A. Schultz and the Majority on that.

Not the majority matters to one at least, who prefers a dictatorship of everything be about him and why he posts every few minutes forever, yet states he frankly doesn’t give a hoot who wins.

______________________
Why post if you don’t care ?
______________________

Why every word out of his hidden behind keyboard, lying saying said “KMBB” when it had an “A” at the end ?

Why every word out of his hidden behind keyboard, lying saying he

_____________
“just don’t care”
_____________

when he obviously does care quite a bit, obsessed telling us nothing but how the Falcons’ are a bad football team all 2012, every post.

That’s not interpreting; it’s what he says every post, bar none.

Blogacide or the equivalent in your Profession, as PED baseball players, or gambling sports’ heroes, remains the same.

Anyway, if he didn’t care and thinks so poorly of the Falcons, just ask him to name the score against Seattle.

Can’t hide behind his keyboard and give you a score.

Sure he cares.

Pete Rose cares.

Shoeless Joe Jackson cared.

JSS cares.

Barry Bonds cares.

They are all alike. They all committed blogacide or the equivalent in their profession, which in JSS’s case is one and the same – ALL CAUGHT.

JSS

January 10th, 2013
7:01 am

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@ Jeff Schultz…
Told ya!

Thomas Brown

January 10th, 2013
7:34 am

See ?

Larry

January 10th, 2013
7:45 am

So, the “system” prevented the election of several cheaters and the “system” failed?

The “system” worked just fine, it seems.

wardenerd

January 10th, 2013
8:03 am

The LPGA has the best plan. They have a performance rquirement. Make the requirement your in. Don’t make it you are not in. It involves winning majors winning regular events leading the LPGA in scoring for so many years etc. How about this. Win 280 games or win more than one MVP award or 5 gold gloves or 5 silver slugger awards.or a combination of gold gloves and silver sluggers. 3 Cy Youngs, You could award points for certin levels of success and establish a minimum nimber of points to get in. It would be fairer than the current popularity contest that keeps Bigeo out and puts Tony Perez and Don Drysdale in.

Larry

January 10th, 2013
8:03 am

“Light skinned to Caucasians Latins were not generally the best players in the region…”

Jeff Schultz,

Shame on you for enabling this angry, resentful, people dividing, self absorbed, self centered racist to spread his hate and morbid agenda. Shame on you, sir, for sitting idle when for much, much less you have chastised, warned or banned your customers and patrons.

Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.

JSS

January 10th, 2013
8:18 am

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Morning stone caster, don’t let that lay around too long… “Dumbing down” reality doesn’t change it, or does it?

HardHat

January 10th, 2013
8:27 am

I really think people who are 1st on the blog should say so in this case too.
Now I haven’t looked at all the posts so I hope I am not repeating but Dave Kingman would of had the magic number 500 HRs to get into the HOF had he not been blackballed by the owners. Then what would the HOF done if King Kong Kingman had the 500 HRs? A decent fielder with an average arm but a mountain of Ks quite a choice there.
I heard one of those talk show folks Kincade and he was taking about cheating and steriods is they all miss the point there are ways to handle a corked bat or a greasy pitch. The rule book has these already in place. But nothing for overturning records made by the juicers. Strip the records now and they will have no stats for any arguement for entry !
Just look at that Brewer MVP because someone mailed something wrong he gets to be a cheating MVP. My oh my no wonder we have the DUI deaths because someone gets off on a technicality on drunk driving they do it again and someone dies. Great world we live in.

JSS

January 10th, 2013
8:31 am

There is a very old saying in Mexico and parts of Central America…
“El hombre en la negación de lo que está delante de él es el hombre que tenga cuidado.”
“The man in denial of what is before him is the man to beware!”

Big AL

January 10th, 2013
8:33 am

THe BB HoF voters are to be held accountable. They can’t be the same voters who vote Bonds as MVP several times and Clemons for CY Young seven times turn around and vote no to the Hall. The same writers/voters are the ones who brought them to the spotlight with all the accolades. Maybe they should have written their columns about 10 years ago when Bond’s body grew from stick man to the Hulk and Clemons went from has burned out has been to great after being a Jose Canseco team mate for a year. It’s the WRITERS FAULT.

Larry

January 10th, 2013
8:39 am

“Dumbing down?”

Like the desperation of one forced through repeated rejection to seek the companionship of a mexican female because he can’t attract a good looking and intelligent African American female or is too unattractive to an intelligent “lighter skinned caucasion” female?

That dumbing down?

JD

January 10th, 2013
8:42 am

If the Voters wanted to send a message they should have included Murphy in his last year of eligibility…the guy was a saint and represented the very best in Baseball both on and off the field. Baseball’s Executives and most of these hipocritical gate-guardian Voters ought to be ashamed of themselves for lumping Murph and McGriff in with this controversy…these guys represented what’s best in the traditions of the game and these voter-writers represent the very worst in their attempt at protest.
Way to go voters…a real foul ball on your collective part.

nate from detroit

January 10th, 2013
8:48 am

I agree with Schultzie on the fact that the HOF should define what “cheating” is and what level of “cheating” will be tolerated in hall of famers. To you Murph bashers, are there not players in the HOF with numbers less impressive than Murphy?

JSS

January 10th, 2013
8:48 am

I wouldn’t know, I dated all of those (and some others), was that your problem? ¿Entienden? no…

JSS

January 10th, 2013
8:56 am

Don’t worry, that illiterate lap dog will be in here to spin this whole mess for you as usual when it all gets deleted…

Class of '98

January 10th, 2013
9:08 am

Jeff, whoever watched Tim Freaking Raines and thought ““now there goes one of the all-time greats”?

DP

January 10th, 2013
9:15 am

Jeff at 8:35, saying that both Murphy and Koufax were as good as any of their peers for 5 years so their situations are comparable is painting Murphy in the best possible light. What I said was that for 5 years Koufax was so great that the number of pitchers who might have been as great for any 5 year period, not just those 5 years, could be counted on the fingers of one hand; as I wrote previously, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, maybe Walter Johnson and Christy Matthewson though I haven’t really looked at their season by season stats. Clemens won over 350 games and even when juiced he never had a 5 year period where he was as dominant as Koufax. Koufax had 5 consecutive seasons where he was like Dwight Gooden as a rookie or Ron Guidry (25-3) in 1978 or Randy Johnson at the top of his game. Koufax had such electric stuff that he was a threat to pitch a no hitter every time out; he threw 4 in 4 seasons. He had 25-5 and 27-9 seasons for a team that could barely score. He threw a 15 strikeout shutout, a World Series record at the time, against the Yankees in 1963. He won 3 games in the 1965 World Series, including a 2-0 shutout in game 7 on 2 days rest when his elbow was hurting so bad that he could only throw fastballs.

I only saw Koufax in the last couple of years of his career on TV as a kid but saw Murphy for his whole career. I am not knocking him as a player. He was outstanding in his prime, but he was never at the level of a Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Ruth, Gehrig, Pujols, Foxx, Williams, Musial, etc. and his prime was in my opinion not quite long enough.

Nativebird

January 10th, 2013
9:16 am

So Steroid cheaters have now added the HOF entry to the many many wonderful features of Baseball that they have negatively affected and tainted, and YOU want to chunk the whole process to accomodate them. That’s is too good. That IS the problem with cheating in sports. Now our idol worshipping, and the billions of $$ that it sucks out of fans pockets have indeed finally surpassed ethics and integrity in all aspect of sports…including sports writing.

DP

January 10th, 2013
9:20 am

Najeh, you wrote that steroids are a character issue. I think they’re also a cheating issue. Guys like Bonds, Sosa and Clemens put themselves at a competitive advantage versus people they played with and against who didn’t use steroids. The pre-1947 players didn’t choose who they could play against and there have been no claims that the greats of that era did anything to give themselves physical advantages.

Of course there are people who say that if steroid cheats shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame, neither should Gaylord Perry who won over 300 games throwing a spitter, as he later acknowledged. I agree, Perry should never have been inducted and once he admitted regular throwing a spitter in a book I think they should have removed him from the Hall.

DP

January 10th, 2013
9:34 am

I don’t think it has come up on this blog, but in other places I’ve seen people make the argument that Bonds should be inducted because he was a HOF quality player before he started doping. That’s based on the assumption that he only started doping after the McGwire-Sosa home run year when Bonds suddenly looked like the Incredible Hulk with a giant head. I think it’s very likely that Bonds started doping a lot earlier than people think but went onto stronger stuff to bulk up. Take a look at the first 5 full seasons of Bonds’ career, 1986-90. He was roughly a .265 hitter averaging 20 or so home runs a year and over 100 strikeouts a year. Then in his 6th season he takes a huge leap in production for the next several seasons. Then he bulks up and takes another quantum leap.

But see if you can find another one with all time great career hitting stats who didn’t really start producing like a superstar until his 6th season in the majors. Every other great player was producing at a superstar level by his 2nd or 3rd season, even if they came into the majors at 19 or 20 years old. Many, or maybe even most, were sensational as rookies. With Mantle and Mays you have to allow for Mantle missing his second season with a knee injury and Mays missing his 2nd and 3rd seasons because of the Korean War.

The closest comparison I can find to Bonds is Rafael Palmeiro, who served a steroid suspension late in his career. Palmeiro started his career in 1986, the same year as Bonds. For his first 5 years he was a .300 hitter with little home run power, some years less than 10 home runs. Then in 1991, the same year Bonds takes off, Palmeiro suddenly morphs into a home run hitter. I think the evidence strongly suggests both Bonds and Palmeiro started juicing in the winter after the 1990 season and the vast majority of their career stats are steroid aided. We already know that Conseco and McGwire were juicing in the late 1980’s, so it was available.

JSS

January 10th, 2013
9:40 am

What people forget about Murphy is that he played in a division that had three death valleys for power hitters (especially in dead ball eras): Dodger Stadium, the Astrodome, and Jack Murphy… Even with that, he hit 24 homers at San Diego…

Chief Noc-a-homa

January 10th, 2013
9:54 am

All I ever hear about is Dale Murphy. He wasn’t even the best Brave on his team. What about the greatest Brave in history, BIG BOB HORNER? Four home runs in one game. FOUR HOME RUNS IN ONE GAME!!! Screw this. I’m going back to my teepee to smokum peace pipe and drink white man’s firewater just like the old days with my boy Bob before the big games.

Bulldawg

January 10th, 2013
10:11 am

I still think Pete Rose should be in the HOF. Yes, I know he gambled on baseball, but is that really any worse than the moral failures of many Hall of Famers? Pete Rose represents what baseball is all about. He loved the game and gave it everything he had every time he stepped on the field. Rose’s stats were not attained by cheating. They were attained by playing the game the way it was designed to be played.

1966 Atlanta Braves...

January 10th, 2013
10:13 am

I agree that Aaron used cold medicine to make him feel better during his career, and also agree that the men that play baseball today have a mixed up mind set concerning their behavior, from the drugs to the tatoo on their neck. Sorry Pete Rose, Dale, Fred and the rest, you are not part of this modern day mess!

Sam

January 10th, 2013
10:17 am

As usual, narrative, speculative anecdotes masquerading as an argument from AJC writers. Look at the data; I don’t really care about the sight test, neither should you. Biggio career WAR: 62.1; McGriff WAR: 48.2, from a position designed to generate more value. How many people with 3,000 hits aren’t in the HOF? Rose, Palmerio, who actually tested positive, and now Biggio. C’mon! How many marginal players get insane votes by homer sports writers trying to please their readers? Too many.

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
10:19 am

Bonds had admitted in court proceedings that he has USED steroids – the clear and the “something else”; he just tried to say he did NOT know they were steroids. If you beleive that, you probably think OJ was completely innocent of the Simpson killings. Palmeiro is proven. McGwire essentially stated he used. For those who claim that since Murphy is still famous, he should be in – does that apply to Bob Uecker and Jose Canseco, too? Murphy is a great human. His baseball CAREER simply does not measure up.

Cloudodust

January 10th, 2013
10:19 am

Long live the good ol’ days when the only PED’s were cigars and beer.

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
10:25 am

Some say Rice being in indicates Murphy should be in. Rice’s BEST years were from 77-79; but he also had 200 hits in 86;
MURPHY
YR G AB R HITS 2B HR RBI AVG
82 162 698 113 168 23 36 109 281 MVP
83 162 687 131 178 24 36 121 302 MVP

RICE
82 145 638 86 177 24 24 97 308 MVP VOTE – #19
83 155 689 90 191 34 39 126 305 MVP VOTE – #4

The MVP in the NL was simply easier to get. Remember, neither of these years were Rices BEST years – those WERE Murphy’s best years. it also appears Rice was no slower than Murphy – he had a ton of triples for a power hitter.

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
10:26 am

I”d think the best brave in history would be eddie mathews, no?

Chief Noc-a-homa

January 10th, 2013
10:30 am

No. Bob Horner.

Dnny

January 10th, 2013
10:33 am

Jeff, the last time I looked the HOF was/is about those who excelled at the game of baseball at their position or positions. Rose, like it or not, had more hits than anybody else that played the game. Bonds, like it or not, had more home runs than anyone that has ever played the game. There are other examples but I’ll stop here.
The big question that I want answered is this, what is the purpose of the HOF? Are they/should they be about displaying the players with the biggest accomplishments in the game? I say yes. We have presidents that failed the moral test while in office. Should they not be considered as one of our presidents because of that? Maybe we should just delete them from the list of presidents because they were of questionable character?
No, you don’t erase history, you simply live with it. The HOF should not be about judging character but about displaying the best players the game has ever known. The character/moral makeup of the players should not be a part of the hall. If character is an issue, then we need to look at those who cheated on the spouses, became alcoholics, beat their wife and or children, the list could go on and on, and not let them in either. What makes taking performance enhancing drugs or betting on games worse than wife/child beating? Those who are throwing stones at others do not want the skeletons to come out of their closet. Trust me on that one.

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
10:33 am

I think I have adequately demonstrated that Rice is substantially better than Murphy; and Rice BARELY was voted in.

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
10:38 am

that must be why Mathews is IN the HOF; Horner not. BTW, Horner NEVER had 100 RBI in a season. Potential does not support that conclusion.

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
10:41 am

dnny – you have a profound equivalency failure. First, educate yourself regarding the criteria of the HOF. However, I do agree with you on Rose. Personally, I think Selig orchestrated the entire steroid era to pump up baseballs popularity. the cancellation of the WS in 94 had a serious, negative impact, Remarkably, only 4 years later McGwire & Sosa captured the imagination. Selig was a former used car salesman – I would NOT put anything past that POS.

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
10:43 am

JSS – what was the rep of Fulton? pretty much a launching pad, no? did not Davey Johnson – a 2nd basement, and Darrel Evans, crack 40+ HR’s there?

Dnny

January 10th, 2013
10:57 am

Paddy O – You are correct about me not knowing the whole criteria for entering the hall but none the less, I stand by my statements 100 percent. The hall should be about the best players who played the game. Key players that fit that criteria are not there because they have been deemed morally ineligible. You cannot dispute that. It is what it is. We as a nation had a span of several years where many players took performance enhancing drugs. Wonder how many who are in the hall were addicted to alcohol or other drugs that wasn’t performance enhancing? I’m simply saying the hall should be about stats and leave the moral question alone. If you go by morals, maybe none of them deserve to be there.

Chief Noc-a-homa

January 10th, 2013
10:57 am

Four home runs in a game is the greatest accomplishment in the history of the universe. All who challenge me are inferior. Horner derived his samson-like power from the blond fro and prodigious beer belly.

Hoosier Aaron

January 10th, 2013
11:06 am

For Murph: 1984, 1985 and 1987 were just as good if not better than his MVP years.
No matter how you slice it – for the decade of the 1980’s, Murph was one of the three most dominate players in the game.
If Murph played in NY or Boston – he would’ve been a HoF ten years ago.

JSS

January 10th, 2013
11:06 am

@ Paddy O…
205 HR lifetime in ATL/Fulton over his career. He never hit a homer there as a visting player. Yes the ball travel in Atlanta, but 73 the year that the players your mentioned hit the number, the very next year Johnson fell back to 15 homers, Evans back to 25, while Evans went Johnson hit 26 of 43 (60%) in Atlanta, Evans 23 of 40 (57%) there… And until Murphy and Horner, they (the Braves) produced no real great power hitting numbers…

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
11:16 am

The baseball hall of fame has always been a joke, and even more so now. For God’s sake, TWO PEOPLE voted for Shawn Green to be in the HOF and one for Aaron Sele (which I have to assume was his mother). Tim Raines in the HOF? Maybe. I can sort of see a case for Murphy and McGriff, but only because I am a Braves fan.

Meanwhile, Bonds and Clemens (probably the best hitter ever and the 3rd or 4tf best pitcher ever) are left out because of steroids? Really? Who gives a crap? Both of them had first ballot HOF careers BEFORE steroids.

Meanwhile, the HOF members include lots of cheaters. George Brett corked his bat, half the pitchers scuffed balls and used pine tar, nearly every member of the hall that played in the 7s and 80s took illegal drugs (greenies = amphetamine). Tons of alcoholics and coke addicts. Hell, they even have a couple of murderers. But the best players in the world took steroids for a few years. THAT is the bridge too far.

Oh, and Schultz, I like the message to the kids that cocaine addiction is A-OK and definitely not performance enhancing (Raines), but taking steroids in 1998 to extend your career after a string of injuries is worse than Hitler.

Dnny

January 10th, 2013
11:24 am

Bravo LawDawg!!!!

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
11:27 am

I hate the fact that Biggio is probably going to get into the HOF simply by hanging on long enough to get 3000 hits. Did anyone ever during his playing career say “there goes one of the all-time greats” or “I need to take my son to this game. This is his last chance to see that paragon of baseball, Craig Biggio”.

I doubt it.

Also, can someone explain to me why I am supposed to care if athletes “cheat”? Get better at testing and have harsher penalties. Baseball and Selig LOVED steroids after they nearly destroyed the sport in 1994. Steroids are the only reason baseball is not a historical footnote in the world of football, and for the same reason: Huge freaks performing inhuman feats of strength, aided by steroids.

Also, I guess we need to just go ahead and preemptively shut down the football hall of fame….or are we still pretending that people can look like that strictly through exercise?

Gator Mike

January 10th, 2013
11:34 am

Jeff, I totally agree with you. How do we know that cheating was not going on in the 70s and before???
I am fed up with all of those politically correct airheads with a holier than thou attitude. Perhaps Bonds, Clements, Sosa, etc did juice up as did a lot of others who did not get caught. Well, all baseball fans certainly loved watching Clements pitch and Bonds knock the ball out of the park. I suppose many of the purists believe that those in Congress such as Pelosi, Reid, etc are squeaky clean. The baseball HOF is a joke.

1966 Atlanta Braves...

January 10th, 2013
11:42 am

Paddy————you are so—-right Ed Mathews is the BEST brave, and be damn Paul Richards for sending him to Houston.

DP

January 10th, 2013
11:43 am

Hey LawDag, since you’re asserting that Barroid Bonds was the best hitter of all time and a HOF worthy player before he started juicing, how about coming back to us with a comparison of the hitting stats over the first 5 years of his career versus those of Ruth (post pitching career), Gehrig, Dimaggio, Foxx, Williams, Greenberg, Hornsby, Cobb, Musial, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Griffey Jr., and Pujols? Bonds was a barely above average major league hitter at age 25, when most are near their peak and a monster at 40, when most have retired. Could you tell us about some other HOF players who fit that criteria, and if there aren’t any what might cause the discrepancy?

bruce benedict

January 10th, 2013
11:55 am

People griping about players already inducted in the HOF that had “character issues”- they didn’t cheat- at least as far as we know. Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, etc do not belong in the HOF- there is no question as to whether they cheated- just look at how their bodies blew up! Their numbers mean nothing. Sports already lacks alot of integrity- let’s try to hold on to some semblance of it.

Brown

January 10th, 2013
12:03 pm

Jeff,

I agree the HOF voting system needs to be fixed. But not sure why BBWAA needs to sit around and wait for more clarity on PEDs. What is going to get more clear by waiting around? It only gets muddier, the deeper you dig into it – and why make those that are deserving wait around until there’s more clarity on an issue that doesn’t involve them.

Only one benefit I see to Maddux and Glavine having to wait one year – and that is to send Smoltz, Glavine, and Maddux all in at the same time in 2015.

P.S. – How lucky were we to get to see 3 Hall of Fame starting pitchers play for the Braves at the same time. It’s really unbelievable when you think about it . . . and unfortunately it also makes you wonder how the hell the Braves didn’t win more than one Series.

Stuart

January 10th, 2013
12:08 pm

Dale Murphy Lifetime stats: 398 lifetime homers, 2,111 hits, 1,661 RBI’s, .265 Batting Average. These are just above average stats for a great power hitter.
Now compare:
Fred McGriff Lifetime stats: 493 lifetime homers, 2,490 hits, 1,550 RBI’s, .284 Batting Average.
Can anyone REALLY say that Murph is more deserving of the HOF than McGriff?

Dnny

January 10th, 2013
12:12 pm

DP – I do not disagree that Bonds probably cheated. I personally believe he did. That said, the hall is no doubt full of others who have done things that, had those things become known, probably would have not made it in. One immoral man or men judging other immoral men is ludicrous to me. Cocaine, alcohol, other drugs ok, sexual immorality ok, but don’t dare try to extend your career with performance enhancing drugs. That is the worse crime there is. Those who vote on hall members are self righteous hypocrites! How many stadiums were filled to capacity across the nation to see Bonds break the home run record? How many stadiums were filled to capacity to watch the Sosa McGuire home run battles? Did they cheat? Yeah, probably but most of the pitchers were also on PED’S so who had an advantage? Their stats say they should be there so let them.

DP

January 10th, 2013
12:16 pm

Dnny, if we can’t have less than perfect men and women judging other less than perfect men and women, let’s just go ahead and do away with the courts and empty the jails, because who are we to judge? There is probably somebody who didn’t get caught who did something just as bad as the guy on death row, so let’s let the perfect be the enemy of the good and let the guy on death row free.

Dnny

January 10th, 2013
12:22 pm

DP – a terrible analogy. In no way shape or form can a person extending his career or making it better through PEDS be put in the same category as a murderer or rapist or such as that. That is sooooo silly.

DollarDawg43

January 10th, 2013
12:32 pm

This year’s voting was no travesty. The players who put up the so-called deserving stats cheated and these are the consequences. Until Shoeless Joe gets in, it is perfectly fair for Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens et al to be excluded as well…and Shoeless Joe was only guilty of ignorance and had the misfortune of playing for an owner so horrible he wouldn’t even pay to have his team’s uniforms washed half the time. He certainly wasn’t paying his players what they were worth. Its no wonder they took the money but Shoeless Joe was always lights out.

If there is a HOF travesty, it is his exclusion.

Mike A

January 10th, 2013
12:39 pm

Shoeless Joe helped throw a World Series. That should preclude him being elected into the Hall.

The difference between gamblers and steroid/amphetamine/etc users is the drug users were still playing to win. Shoeless Joe was playing to lose. Gambling threatens the legitimacy of the game itself, which is why the 1919 scandal almost killed baseball. And it’s why gambling is treated so severely by the Hall and MLB (Pete Rose knew this fact, but ignored it).

Walter

January 10th, 2013
12:41 pm

I’m not sure that this will be read by Jeff considering the 200+ comments that are already posted but I’ll shoot anyway. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but if you seriously think Dale Murphy and Fred McGriff are worthy of being in the Hall of Fame then I have to question if you watch baseball outside of the Braves organization. Murphy was good, maybe even great, he had a few good years, but compare him to others in the HoF and his numbers, the impact he made in games, the impact he made on his team, aren’t really comparable. Biggio played on an Astros team that had Bagwell, Caminiti, Hampton, Finley, Hunter and a young Gonzalez. He switched from Catcher to 2nd base and was an all-star at BOTH positions, never been done before likely never be done again. Seven time all-star, 4 Gold Gloves, 5 Silver Slugger Awards and his number retired by the only team he played for for NINETEEN years! Morris might get in via the Veteran’s committee, as might Raines and McGriff. Mr. Schultz, if you don’t know the criteria of which you are suppose to cast your BBWAA vote then maybe you shouldn’t be voting… The BBWAA has done a very good job over the years of making the distinction as a group who belongs in the HoF and who was great but not exactly worthy of being enshrined as one of the greatest of all time, not just at their position but in general. I do feel that a few players were cheated out of first ballots this year, but a statement was made, and the players; past, present and future would do well to take notice. The system is a generally good system, sometimes they may not recognize the importance of someone who may not have had the best numbers but that’s why they have the VC. The HoF is suppose to be sacred, an enshrinement of a game that is still to some this nations greatest pastime. I don’t want cheaters, or gamblers in something that is suppose to be sacred. These people inside the HoF are people we should want our children, and their children to look up to, and know, not just in Atlanta, but across the country. Murphy and McGriff were kinda big here, but Maddox and Glavine were known and feared around both leagues, had fans in more than just the south, and most of all, had the respect.

Brown

January 10th, 2013
12:53 pm

Because it’s impossible to truly know who juiced and who didn’t, and to what extent – I think you have to vote people in based on their numbers and their impact to the game and its history.

If you look at the McGwire-Sosa HR battle, and Bonds chase of the single-season and career home run records – they were huge moments in the game, but we all know they were shrouded in possible or blatant cheating. And if/when the alleged juicers make in into the HOF, they will still carry a tainted history, even if they don’t get an official asterisk.

I guess my thought is that the BBWAA should not try to police, and try to determine who used and who didn’t. Vote players in on their credentials, and let the fans decide if they want to view them as Hall of Famers or not. I think Cooperstown should also have a big ‘Steroid Era’ exhibit, explaining how players changed their physique, changed the record books, and tells the story of the Congressional court hearings and other legal proceedings surrounding the issue.

The Steroid Era is part of baseball history whether we like it or not, and you can’t tell the story of baseball without. Tell the story, rather than hiding from it.

Tebow Rotting On Bench

January 10th, 2013
12:57 pm

Bottomline Jeff, the baseball writers should not be able to punish Bonds,Sosa,Clemens,McSteroidgwire,etc. with their votes. The votes should be about the stats the players put up. Were those stats among the greatest 10% of all playes ever ? None of you sports writers are doctors that tested players for steroids. The court system exonerated Clemens & Bonds of steroids use. But a group of writers can prevent the all time home run king Barry Bonds from being a hall of famer.

“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.

Roid Raging

January 10th, 2013
1:03 pm

None of those dirty players should be in HOF. Heck, Bonds & Clemens should have restraining orders keeping them 5,000 feet from Cooperstown premises. These roiders made a mockery of the aplle pie & cracker jack game that adults played like kids but become millionaires. Who thinks Chipper roided ? We know Javy Lopez did. We for sho know jordan Schafer did but he still is an Atlanta Brave. So see if it mattered that players used steroids they would be permanently banned not sent to their rooms. Wake up MLB fans because Bud Selig sold you a dead mule as a race horse and you want to buy more from him !

Tanner

January 10th, 2013
1:07 pm

Pete Rose has the all time hits record but isn’t in hall of fame.
Barry Bonds has all time home runs record but isn’t in hall of fame.

Why have a hall of fame if two of the best players ever (by the numbers) aren’t in it ? Cooperstown is a joke.

Hillbilly D

January 10th, 2013
1:07 pm

What about the greatest Brave in history, BIG BOB HORNER?

I saw Bob Horner play and I saw Henry Aaron play. Bob was no Henry. Bob was a guy who had HOF potential but due to injuries and other things, he never got there. Very good hitter, and a very quick bat but things didn’t fall into place for him.

What people forget about Murphy is that he played in a division that had three death valleys for power hitters (especially in dead ball eras): Dodger Stadium, the Astrodome, and Jack Murphy…

They also forget how good he was defensively, in CF.

A decent fielder with an average arm but a mountain of Ks quite a choice there.

Kingman wasn’t a decent fielder; teams spent years trying to hide him at 1B. He was a K king for his day but 156 was the most he ever had in a single season. There were 14 people last year in MLB who had more K’s than that. Mickey Mantle was also criticized for his K’s and 126 was the most he ever had (and you have to take his production into account). 126 would’ve tied him for 48th in Ks last year. This truly is the era of the K King.

Hillbilly D

January 10th, 2013
1:12 pm

Jeff, whoever watched Tim Freaking Raines and thought ““now there goes one of the all-time greats”?

Me. .294 lifetime BA, 385 lifetime OBP, 808 SBs, and the guy changed the tone of the game every time he got to 1B. He was also a good defensive player, other than his arm.

Sean Payton

January 10th, 2013
1:18 pm

You cant compare someone at 18-21 with 34-40.

Everyone gets bigger. At 18 I was 180 lbs with no muscles. At 28 i am 221

I didnt take steroids. I worked out everyday.

Buddy Steroidz Selig

January 10th, 2013
1:19 pm

“My fellow gullible MLB fans,

I want to give you my stance on the reportedly use of steroids under my watch as Commissioner. There were some minor leaguers playing around with steroids but I quickly banned those nobodys. You people really think that Mark McGwire & Barry Bonds used steroids. I’ll have you know that both suffer from a new disease called “pumpkin growth”. This doctoral term was coined by Dr. Detroit due to the swelling of a MLB players head in year 10 of their careers. It only effects a few players but surprisingly usually the better players. I have my team of overpaid employees and doctors looking into reversing the effects of this disease while I speak. The medical doctors throughout America will falsely tell you that this enlarged cranium is due to steroids usage. I stringently tested MLB players in the off season for steroids. There was no need to test them during the season since they were too bust traveling. It was about logistics people. I’m the man in MLB. Donald Fehr and the owners trust me blindly and support my actions. I’m the fox guarding the henhouse but no one cares. I’m with Brent Musberger though,that Auburn chick dating the Bama qb is hot.”

Brown

January 10th, 2013
1:19 pm

Seems to me the BBWAA is a group afraid to think for themselves- turning in blank ballots, inability to vote people in their first year, inability to elect a Single Freaking Player in 2013! These guys need to man up and vote for who think deserves to get in rather than worrying about voting differently from their peers. Have some backbone.

Hillbilly D

January 10th, 2013
1:22 pm

I didnt take steroids. I worked out everyday.

Did your head double in size? That’s usually the dead give-away for PED use.

Rick Petty

January 10th, 2013
1:25 pm

My uncle Richard Petty Nascar King & HOFer cheated by using illegal parts,fixing races,and wrecking potential winners but he’s in the Nascar HOF. That cheating Dale Earnhardt (RIP) wrecked Rusty Wallace every race to increase his chances to win races and he’s in the HOF. I guess MLB has higher standards ?

Hillbilly D

January 10th, 2013
1:29 pm

Richard Petty’s nephews are Tim, Ritchie and Mark. Just sayin’.

Trey Atkins

January 10th, 2013
1:29 pm

If Barry Bonds daughter married Sammy Sosa’s son and had a baby you could call Guiness book of world records for the new largest headed baby ever !

Rick Petty

January 10th, 2013
1:30 pm

I’m a nephew by marriage. I assumed the Petty name for monetary benefits.

dh

January 10th, 2013
1:33 pm

Couldn’t agree more. Murphy and McGriff should be there. Let’s hope the Veterans Committee is smarter than the baseball writers.

Rick Petty

January 10th, 2013
1:35 pm

Hey Sean, yeah your now 221 with no muscles…

Luke

January 10th, 2013
1:36 pm

I agree with Sean. I was 18 and had a 30 inch waist. Now I’m 45 with a 47 inch waist. We all get bigger.

Chill

January 10th, 2013
1:38 pm

I’m sorry. I hear the name Craig Biggio I don’t think HOF. I think very good for a very long time. In my book you have to be GREAT for substantial amount of time to even merit consideration. Now if I say the name Derek Jeter, there’s nothing to think about. That how it should be with the HOF. If we have to sit down to think, discuss & debate then that player shouldn’t go in. I’m a die hard braves fan that Loves Murph & McGriff and respects the hell out of Biggio but they are not HOF worthy in my book. I guess they will just have to settle for being HOF People.

Hillbilly D

January 10th, 2013
1:43 pm

I’m a nephew by marriage.

So you’re from the Owens side?

blue

January 10th, 2013
1:45 pm

Just the fact that Biggio didn’t get in on the first ballot indicates that the system is broken. Who knows? Maybe Maddox, Glavine and Smoltz won’t get in on the first ballot? What a joke.

Hillbilly D

January 10th, 2013
1:51 pm

Just the fact that Biggio didn’t get in on the first ballot indicates that the system is broken.

There have only been 39 first ballot guys (excluding the original 5) in the history of the Hall of Fame. Biggio will get in, in 2-4 years, probably.

Chill

January 10th, 2013
2:00 pm

Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine & Frank Thomas. 3 Guys that should walk/stroll/moonwalk into the HOF without discussion and that’s how it should be.

beebee

January 10th, 2013
2:00 pm

Fred McGriff? Hall of Fame?

BWAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAA HAA BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAA!

Brown

January 10th, 2013
2:01 pm

I think Biggio is worthy: 3,000 hits, 15th most runs scored all-time, 18th most times on-base all-time. Lots of stolen bases with high success rate, 4 golden gloves, 5 silver slugger, .363 OBP for his career.

Yeah, maybe he wasn’t flashy or cocky like a lot of ’superstar’ players, but he played the game 100% all the time, and played a 20 years consistently at a high level offensively, defensively and on the bases.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
2:10 pm

TRIVIA TIME: Who was the first player to fail a steroid test when they got the new testing rules in?

It is exactly who you think, a true slugger…oh, wait, it was actually Alex Sanchez who had 5 career home runs (or so).

My point is: Everyone was juicing, so why would we not put the best juicers in the hall of fame, the same way the best spitballers and bat-corkers are in the hall?

JSS

January 10th, 2013
2:12 pm

It is always great when Hillbilly D shows up on a blog, the Blog IQ gains 25 points every time… And it doesn’t take 16 paragraphs to get it done!

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
2:14 pm

DP – you suck at analogies. The peak years for a power hitter are 26-30 (particularly power hitters). So…your point is that Barry Bonds had better years at 26-30 than 20-25. Impressive. He started juicing in 1998 after a potentially-career-ending injury. I freely admit that he was on the stuff when he hit 73. You know what else? I don’t give even the faintest hint of a damn about that. Alex Sanchez never hit 73 home runs. Neither did any of the other juicers.

Why exactly do you care so much about someone taking steroids? Is it so that you can feel better than a hulking multimillionaire who plays games for a living? If so, that is pretty sad.

Is it that you care about the “integrity of the game?” That is pretty sad, too. Stop elevating this to the level of myth and legend. It’s a freaking kids game where you hit a ball with a stick, not space travel.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
2:17 pm

“Just the fact that Biggio didn’t get in on the first ballot indicates that the system is broken. ”

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Seriously, Craig Biggio not getting in is a travesty?!? Are you kidding me? I guess you are a big fan of HBP.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
2:23 pm

Craig Biggio
career .281 hitter, .796 OPS
last all-star game was 10 years before he retired.
Led the league in runs twice, stolen bases once (a whopping 49), and doubles 3 times.
His only other bold stats are GP, HBP, and PA.
He only hit over .300 4 times
He averaged a whopping 14.5 HR/season and struck out nearly 1800 times.

Hall of Famer? Please.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
2:24 pm

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/biggicr01.shtml

And if anyone brings up WAR (a completely made up bunch of crap), you have already proven that you have no argument for him being a HOF.

DP

January 10th, 2013
2:26 pm

LawDawg, you either suck at reading or are intentionally avoiding the question. You can’t find any of the all time great hitters who didn’t become great until their 6th season other than Barroid Bonds. An earlier post of yours said he was HOF worthy before he started juicing, now you’re backtracking. And you’re saying that he started juicing in 1998 as if you somehow know that. The evidence suggests he started juicing about 1990-91 when he suddenly went from a 20 home run whiff machine to one of the best hitters in the league.

Yeah, it’s pretty sad to care about integrity, isn’t it? You’re a lawyer, does that mean anything you can get away with is OK, that you don’t need to adhere to the law or any code of professional ethics? Oh wait, bad analogy again, right?

jfreak13713

January 10th, 2013
2:26 pm

Release all the TEST RESULTS and anyone found to have cheated should be excluded from Hall of Fame forever. I know past generations had their ways of getting an advantage or race played a roll in them putting up the kinds of numbers they may not have if all races were allowed to play. Too bad! Can’t fix that problem and its an unnkown how Ruth would have hit a black pitcher or a black hitter would have hit a white pitcher. Frankly I’m tire of everything be based in race. If you cheated you are a bum and should be banned from the Hall of Fame. Right is right and wrong is wrong. There is NO GREY area.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
2:27 pm

Oh, and Biggio’s best power numbers came at ages 38 and 39. Just like Barry Bonds. Just saying.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
2:29 pm

“Right is right and wrong is wrong. There is NO GREY area.”

Get ready for a tough life, buddy.

Traditionalist

January 10th, 2013
2:37 pm

These melon-headed drug freaks are a shame to the sport. Yes the league looked the other way. Does that make it right – NO.

Stand up for something or fall for anything. Not everyone gets a trophy. Especially if you cheat.

Shultz, you are the worst kind of reporter. In a generation where ethics, morals and integrity are declining, your voice is perpetuating that fall. Shame on you just to see Bonds “The Injector” get a plaque.

These guys cheated. You are elected to the HOF based primarily on your numbers. PEDs change those numbers – period. Look at the pitiful excuse ARod is without PEDs. Just a normal hack, falling apart and only in the league becasue of his contract.

Come on people, stand up for the game. Stand for tradition. Stand for something. Don’t let your sorry excuses for ethics get in the way of the American pastime.

And you can tell Pete Rose to shut his mouth and put $20 on the Falcons to beat the spread….

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
2:37 pm

DP – First, a lot of lawyers use cocaine as a performance enhancing drug. I don’t cry like a little Dale Murphy about them gaining an advantage.

Barry Bonds’ fifth year was .301-33-114, and an MVP at age 25, when lesser athletes are hanging out in AA. I guess we are calling that a bad year? Ok, then. Oh, right. Then he won MVP’s 2 out of the next 3 years (and finished second the other year). That was a pretty bad career. He physically did not look any different (certainly not steroid different) until he missed the end of 1999 with a career-threatening injury. 2000 on is steroid years.

Before that, all he did was win 3 MVPs, finish 2nd another year, and go 40-40. Other than that, your argument is sound.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
2:38 pm

DP – you are literally the only person who thinks he juiced in 1990. If you are going to argue from completely made up facts, I’m not sure what to do. He improved from age 24 to age 25. I watched all of his games those years. He did not suddenly become enormous, he just got better as does every athlete that age.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
2:41 pm

DP – Also, I’m not talking about integrity generally. I’m saying this is baseball, not something important. It is a freaking GAME and the people who put all this extra BS meaning behind it clearly have something missing in their lives, which is why people like you get amped up over this: You want to feel like you are not as beneath Barry Bonds (or “Barroid” HAHAHA!! How clever!! Like Steroid!!) as you actually are. Deal with it.

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
2:50 pm

dnny – character is one of the key elements/criteria to be considered when casting the ballot. those who have the authority to cast a ballot make that determination independently. If you think taking PEDS (PERFORMANCE enhancing drugs) is equal to drinking legal alcohol – that would be an equivalency failure / comparision error on your part. The writers – who must have at least 10 years of membership in BBWAA – have far more inside information than the average fan. I have ZERO problem with those who cheated regarding PEDS being omitted. It is fairly obvious that steroids have a substantial impact on player ability – strength, hand eye coordination, and precise reaction time appears to be profoundly altered in the players favor – otherwise, how does Brady Anderson smack 50 HR’s? And Bonds go from 35 or so HR to the record 73 he slammed? If you want to morally relativistic, that is your choice. Thankfully, others are not so gullible.

JSS

January 10th, 2013
2:55 pm

@ LawDawg…
Like I said, he had the quickest bat through the zone (in the period you described), you’re wasting your time trying to explain to most. They just hate the man. Right or wrong, only Ali (67-71) has felt heat like that… He would have hit between 550-625 on the pace he was on, people forget that… He hit 46 home runs in 1993 for goodness sake… No apology for the steroids, but he was like Frank Robinson without the throwing arm…

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
2:59 pm

lawdawg – you don’t know diddly. 3000 hits 1800 RUNS scored. 146 runs one year; over 200 hits one year. over 600 doubles. he was a great player. pretend what you wish.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
3:03 pm

Paddy – I’m not “pretending” anything. I’m stating his mediocre stats. If you want to come all over a .281 lifetime batting average with no power, be my guest, but don’t act like there is no counterargument.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
3:04 pm

All of your stats are counting stats also. Long career =/= great career. 150 hits, 90 runs, and 30 doubles average per year does not impress me.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
3:04 pm

JSS – right on.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
3:06 pm

Wait…did you seriously just argue that steroids improve hand-eye coordination?

Brown

January 10th, 2013
3:06 pm

Impressing LawDawg is not one of the criteria

JSS

January 10th, 2013
3:16 pm

I generally stay out of the Biggio argument, but he was a jewel… His defense is forgotten, you won’t get his versatility in the field again… And he played 12 seasons in a power graveyard (the Astrodome)… Only once after age 33 did he not have more 555 plate appearances… Think about that for a moment…

Train Wreck Bystander

January 10th, 2013
3:39 pm

I believe the veteran’s committee will eventually do right by Murph.

varoadrunner

January 10th, 2013
3:45 pm

If you CHEAT you are disqualified! Simple and Sweet.
Bonds is the worst of them all – from a skinny, talented kid to THE HULK. No way!

The HOF is meant for people like Chipper, Jeter, Glavine, Maddux, Ripken, Ford, Berra etc.

On Rose…….He belongs in the HOF AS A PLAYER and of course not a manager. Our All Time leader in hits deserves to be in. He was a favorite of mine and I modeled my play by his.

Nuff from me

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
3:53 pm

“Impressing LawDawg is not one of the criteria”

Ha! Maybe it should be. I am not easily impressed. Look, Biggio was a very good player and he always seemed to be a good clubhouse guy. I’m not crapping on Biggio.

I think the HOF has become WAY too inclusive. I would not even consider McGriff, Murphy, Biggio, and many other HOFers. Jim Rice? Nope. Blyleven? Nope. Lee Smith and Jack Morris? Hell no.

Being merely good is not what Cooperstown should stand for. Oh well, Connie Mack killed that chance in the 40s anyway.

DP

January 10th, 2013
4:09 pm

LawDawg, I’m off on Barroid by 1 year, it was his 5th year at age 25 when he broke out, not his 6th year at 26. Here were his batting averages, home runs and OPS in his first 4 seasons:
1986: .223, 16 and .746
1987: .261, 25 and .821
1988: .283, 24 and .859
1989: .248, 19 and .777

OK numbers, nothing to suggest a Hall of Fame caliber player. Then suddenly in 1990 he puts up an MVP season and never had an OPS of less than .924 for the rest of his career.

Look at any other great hitter in baseball history you like and find me one other than Barroid that took until his 5th season to become great.

DP

January 10th, 2013
4:17 pm

LawDog, at least we agree on something. The HOF shouldn’t be a Lifetime Achievement Award for players who pile up a lot of hits or wins because they play for 20 years. Biggio had a career OPS of .796.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
4:19 pm

Relevant metric is 25 years old, not seasons in majors. But let’s play:

Craig Biggio (your boy): Did not have more than 13 HR or an OPS above .747 until his 6th season, at age 27. Did not hit .300 until his 7th season, at 28.
Jeff Bagwell: Did not have more than 20 homers until his fifth season, at age 26.
Allen Trammel: 6th season, at 25, was his first good season.

That is just from a quick review of the stats of the 2013 HOF voting. So, your argument sucks.

DP

January 10th, 2013
4:31 pm

Where did Craig Biggio become my boy? I don’t think he should be in. And the relevant comparison group for Barroid since you proclaim him the greatest hitter of all time should be made up of guys like these:

Ted Williams (age 20-23): OPS of 1.045, 1.036, 1.287, 1.147
Joe Dimaggio (age (21-24): OPS of .928, 1.085, .967, 1.119
Stan Musial (age 21-25 with one year in WWII): .888, .988, .990, 1.021
Albert Pujols (age 21-24): 1.013, .955, 1.106, 1.072
Hank Aaron (age 20-23): .769, .906, .923, .978

JSS

January 10th, 2013
4:32 pm

@ DP…
Well you may not consider him great (or “juiced”), Jose Bautista, then regular types Jimmie Foxx, Harmon Killebrew, and in slight way Hank Greenberg…

The thing about Bonds, he only spent one season in low A at 20, then went straight to AAA, and was plopped down in the Majors at 22 (114 minor league games)… By comparison, Chipper Jones played 413 minor league games between being drafted and being called up…

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
4:33 pm

Clemente had single-digit HR his first 5 years. Highest OPS was .761
Junior Griffey was pretty good from the start, but took a huge leap in HR in his…wait for it…5th year.
Pete Rose had two bad years and improved greatly in year 3, at 24.
Johnny Bench went from 1 to 15 to 26 to 45 home runs in his first four years
Robin Yount was pedestrian, at best, in his first 6 years in the league.

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
4:33 pm

lew – 3000 hits terminates any faux arguments. selah. 281 over a life time is excellent.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
4:34 pm

.281 is excellent? You have a bunch of participation medals hanging on your corkboard at home, don’t you?

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
4:38 pm

DP – I never said Bonds was the greatest hitter ever from 22-25. Plus, I would actually rank him behind Teddy Ballgame and Musial. Not Aaron or Pujols though. I’m not versed enough in Dimaggio to say one way or the other.

As for Biggio, I got you and the other guy confused. I’m also not sure what we are arguing about any more. If you are saying he juiced at 25, I provided a number of examples of good to great players who improved greatly at that age and experience level. The fact that some people are great out of the gate is irrelevant, because not all are. Unless you think Robin Yount was juicing despite the fact that he has a Grandpa body his whole career.

DP

January 10th, 2013
4:47 pm

LawDog, my point is I don’t think you go from what Barry Bonds was in his first 4 seasons to what he was after that without juice. I don’t see any precedent for it in the truly great players, and Canseco and McGwire were already juicing in the late 1980’s. Barry Bonds went from somewhat above average hitter to superstar and Palmeiro went from singles hitter to slugger at the same time. I don’t think it was coincidence. Based on the numbers, my guess is that Bonds started taking something after the 1989 season and ramped it up significantly in 1998 after he became jealous of the attention McGwire and Sosa got, not because of some career threatening injury as you state. You think Bonds should be in the HOF no matter how long he juiced and I don’t. Where we differ is that I think Bonds might not have been a HOF quality player had he never juiced, and he certainly wouldn’t have put up the numbers to be in the discussion as one of the all time greats.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
4:50 pm

OK, if that is your “evidence”, then you absolutely have to assume Clemente and Yount were juicers. There is no way your argument works otherwise.

LawDawg

January 10th, 2013
4:52 pm

Look at a picture of 26 year old Bonds. No evidence of steroids. It is common knowledge he started juicing after getting hurt in 1999. Hell, not even Rick Reilly (who I have to assume Bonds screwed either his wife or his sister as much as he hates the guy) thinks Bonds juiced at 25. That is an asinine belief that has no basis in reality or logic. Have fun with that. I’m done.

DP

January 10th, 2013
4:57 pm

LawDog, as for the players you cite, Griffey Jr. was 19 in his first full season. He had a .926 OPS at 21. You’re citing a partial season for Johnny Bench in which he had 86 ABs. He won the MVP at age 22. As for Pete Rose and Robin Yount, I was comparing Bonds to the some of the greatest players of all time, not Lifetime Achievement Award guys. Pete Rose was a singles hitter without speed and a career .784 OPS, not a great defender at any position. He is the poster child for the Lifetime Achievement Award for playing forever and piling up career stats.

DP

January 10th, 2013
5:04 pm

Good grief, Robin Yount only hit 20 or more home runs 4 times in a 20 year career.

Clemente was not an all time great hitter. He was more of an all around player, a good hitter, one of the greatest right fielders with maybe the greatest outfield arm ever and a fantastic base runner.

With regards to Bonds, I’m looking for another guy who goes from Claudell Washington for his first 4 seasons to Ted Williams for the rest of his career.

osay

January 10th, 2013
5:09 pm

mlb is a disgrace with all these juicers—most players are on steroids but don’t get caught.

Brown

January 10th, 2013
5:10 pm

I was just looking over Bonds’ 2004 stats, and my god they are just astounding. On-base % over .600, slugging percentage of .880. Those are insane numbers He walked so many times that he had significantly fewer at-bats, yet still had over 40 homers and 100 RBIs. Maybe the most impressive thing is that he had more homeruns than strikeouts that year. One more time – he had more home runs than strikeouts. That is unbelievable.

I hate Barry Bonds because he tarnished himself and his stats. He was already one the very best baseball players and history without juicing. And it sucks that got greedy and decided that wasn’t good enough.

But he had ungodly talent, which did not come from juicing. In 2004, he hardly ever saw a good pitch – but any time a pitcher threw a single pitch in the strike zone, he made them pay. That ability doesn’t come from steroids and HGH.

Mike A

January 10th, 2013
5:19 pm

From 1986-1989, Bonds was 2nd in NL fWAR to Ozzie Smith. That’s certainly a Hall of Fame track.

Granted, much of Bonds’ value at the time was his great defense, but he could hit a bit as well. Bonds was 6th in NL OPS in 1988, for instance. 1989 is the only ‘questionable’ early career year as his stats took a step back, but that might have been just a blip. His career path looks pretty normal until age 35, then it start to get a bit…fishy.

If you go just by the stats, 2000 looks like the year Bonds started getting a little extra help. That makes sense if the rumored story is true that Bonds was ticked off about McGwire and Sosa getting all the acclaim so he decided to juice to keep up with them. But we really don’t know for sure.

There is little question Bonds is a Hall of Famer regardless.

JSS

January 10th, 2013
5:27 pm

Whoa, whoa, whoa… You do realize that Clemente has only been exceeded by 14 modern era players (1960-present) in batting average? And he is the top 60 all-time for all batters for the entire history of MLB for batting average. Clemente (especially considering he had no strike zone) was a all-time great hitter in an historical context.

Hillbilly D

January 10th, 2013
5:40 pm

And if anyone brings up WAR (a completely made up bunch of crap), you have already proven that you have no argument for him being a HOF.

Cue the music………..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv5BYEOQYLo

JSS

January 10th, 2013
7:21 pm

@ Hillbilly D…
Ha ha ha…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxDaGSIvuYc

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
7:53 pm

clemente never went through the “downside” of his career wich adversely impact career stats. However, he was a great player, human and utterly deserving of the HOF.

Paddy O

January 10th, 2013
7:55 pm

bonds’ accomplishment are fictional. a test tube baby. thus, you would have to doubt his numbers.

JSS

January 10th, 2013
9:25 pm

Paddy, he was 37… He, Aaron, and Ted Williams are the super exceptions to the downside… His games decreased that final season before the plane crash… But that stroke was vintage Clemente…Saw him twice that summer, he was a warrior…

JSS

January 11th, 2013
2:03 am

@ “Real” beisbol fans… Best English language documentary ever on the Latin game…
http://beisbolthemovie.com/

MitchC

January 11th, 2013
8:28 am

Jeff, I dont agree with you, and not just because I’m a Braves fan.

Why should obviously deserviing Glavine and Maddux, 300 game winners, and Smoltz, the only guy with 200 wins and 150 saves, not to mention 3000’s Ks, have to wait, just because several guys cheated? These are guys who got every single one of their wins and strikeouts honesty. The rule says five years aftet retirement. Well, I say, they should have their due, 5 years after retirement.

I dont know how you “fix” the system, but it seems to me that they can multitask, and fix it while honoring due guys.

I hope that the guys that were found to be cheating never get in. As for the others, if they are due a place in the Hall, let them have it.

MitchC

January 11th, 2013
8:32 am

I’m one who also is very surprised that Tommy John hasnt been elected by the Veterans Committee. He had 288 wins, and a 3.34 ERA, missed a year and a half with the ligament transplant surgery that changed the game. If he hadnt missed the year and a half, John would have won 300 games. If Smoltz does get in, as he hopefully will, that surgery saved his career in 2000, and enabled him to play long enough to get in.

Keep out the Steriods, and honor a deserving guy like Tommy John.

Paddy O

January 11th, 2013
11:12 am

I was surprised at the # of wins by Tommy John. He is slightly above borderline to me – he also was on a ton of great Dodger & Yankee teams. But, he was never a dominant guy – sort of like a better version of Jamie Moyer. Sadly, I never got so see Clemente play. But, he is one of those historical, legendary great players.

Paddy O

January 11th, 2013
11:15 am

For those slamming Biggio (primarily due to he NOT being a power hitter, Carl Yaz was a career 285 hitter. You play until you can’t do what you want. Biggio had over 100 hits his last year. If you think 130 hits is hanging on, the last EIGHT – yes – 8 – years of Murphy’s career, he never exceeded 140 hits. So, think what you will. Schultz wrote a BS article. He was called out on it.

Paddy O

January 11th, 2013
11:16 am

I think all 3 of the Braves Cy young guys get in. Maddux should be 1st ballot – Glavine may be year 2. Maybe not. 300 wins is still amazing.

Paddy O

January 11th, 2013
11:16 am

lawdawg- you are one cherry picking moron.

Paddy O

January 11th, 2013
11:37 am

there is nothing wrong with the voting system. 600 “experts” with 10 years experience cast ballots. I’d argue the results are better than the typical US political campaign. far less BS – no campaigning.

JSS

January 11th, 2013
2:03 pm

Paddy O, you’re selling Tommy John short… He worked a strike like Jerry Koosman with better stuff.. Walter Alston had a way of getting pitchers to be way above average… He made Sutton capable of pitching as long he did…

billy ray

January 12th, 2013
9:45 am

Najeh Davenpoop We are talking about cheats that used drugs to pad their stats- cheaters that could not have reached those numbers without the drugs. We also are talking about the union boss Donald Fehr who is the chief culprit that allowed the cheating to continue by not allowing the tests to be implemented for years. He told us there were only 5% that were doing it- turned out to be only 5% that were not doing it.

KB

January 16th, 2013
9:24 pm

Jeff – this is one of your best. I cannot believe Braves fans and the comments. Unreal. I challenge every so-called Braves fans to take a closer look at Fred McGriff’s numbers, then go compare them to first-ballot HOFer’s Willie McCovey and Willie Stargell. They are almost identical. McGriff’s numbers are clearly Hall-worthy. Tied with Lou Gehrig with 493 HR’s. Over 1500 base hits and RBI’s. Seven consecutive seasons with 30 + HR’s (ten overall), and the only other MLB players to accomplish that are all inner-circle HOF icons. Oh, and he also didn’t use steroids. Yet his numbers still stack up.
Now Braves fans, do you remember 1993? Remember being 9 games back until we traded for one of the top sluggers in the game? Do you remember Fred tearing it up, changing our offense and helping us win the pennant that year?
How about the post-season? Remember those HR’s that helped us win a World Series? Remember McGriff hitting over .300 in his postseason appearances while get key HR’s and RBI’s?
Sorry that Murphy didn’t get in. But now, hopefully, Braves fans can wake up and rally around the greatest first baseman to ever put on an Atlanta uniform. Fred McGriff 2014!

Time to put Hall of Fame vote on shelf, overhaul system

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Time to put Hall of Fame vote on shelf, overhaul system

329 comments Add your comment

About Jeff Schultz

We’ve Moved!

One Subscription. Total Access.

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Archives

More from the AJC

Categories

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