MLB’s drug policy too soft — teams should be docked wins
Melky Cabrera makes the boo-boo face after an out, which was common before he juiced.
The objective of a drug policy in professional sports is to deter its use. And yet, there have been 80 violations of baseball’s drug program in the minor and major leagues in 2012 – including 20 alone in the month of August.
The objective of suspending players is in part to have them serve as an example for what can happen if somebody cheats, regardless of the potential rewards that await the player on the other side of the rainbow (and syringe). And yet, the San Francisco Giants’ Melky Cabrera chose to artificially inflate his muscles, which led to him competing for the National League batting title, launching his team into a divisional title race, winning the All-Star Game MVP Award, helping the National League claim home-field advantage in the World Series and setting himself up for the contract of his free-agency dreams.
This is when it’s easy to come to the conclusion that baseball’s drug program doesn’t go nearly far enough.
Suspensions need to be longer: One year with the first positive test. There have been enough warnings and enough education about what can and can’t be used.
Maybe more important, the people who run this game — and any sports league — need to start looking at penalizing teams for using illegal players.
I’m talking about taking away wins.
The NCAA does a lot wrong in its enforcement, but one thing it does correctly is it punishes programs that use ineligible players, vacating victories and sometimes championships. The problem in college athletics is that by the time the investigation has been completed and the punishment comes down, the season is over. It becomes more of a symbolic gesture, even if it leaves a permanent grease spot on the program and some individuals.
That’s not the case here. Even if Cabrera, who was suspended 50 games last week for mutant-like levels of testosterone, doesn’t play another game for the San Francisco Giants, the team already has benefited from his ballooned a .346 batting average. Cabrera isn’t the cartoon that Barry Bonds morphed into late in his career, but he was a career .275 hitter before this season. (We can debate whether he was even clean last season with Kansas City, when he jumped from a .255 average, four homers and .354 slugging percentage with the Braves in 2010 to .305, 18 and .470 with the Royals.)
In Cabrera’s last game with the Giants on Aug. 14, he doubled and scored a run in a 6-1 win over Washington. The Giants were 64-53, tied for first place in the National League West. Cabrera played in 113 of the 117 games. If this was college, the Giants would lose any victory among those 113. A less extreme approach would be for baseball to come up with a standard formula: For example, 20 percent of all wins Cabrera played in. But some penalty is needed as a deterrent.
I would love to hear an argument against this — something beyond, “You just can’t do that.”
A Major League Baseball official declined comment, other than to point out that any increased player suspensions would have to be collectively bargained. He left open the possibility for further measures against Cabrera, but he said MLB has never considered vacating wins.
Baseball was in denial about performance-enhancing drug use for years. It implemented its first serious testing program only after officials and the players’ union were humiliated by Congress in 2005. Are we really to believe teams didn’t know about rampant PED use that led to shattered records (as well as wins and potentially World Series titles)? Why do teams skate?
The obvious downside to vacating wins is that clean players and coaches and certainly fans would be unfairly punished. But such is the case now with NCAA sanctions.
The threat of increased penalties could force teams to step up their own policing of the drug program. The resulting peer pressure among players also presumably would have a ripple effect, down to the minors (where 76 of the 80 positive tests occurred).
Commissioner Bud Selig would like to get past the ugly Cabrera episode. But it’s worth noting it was his plan to have the All-Star game winner gain the home-field advantage in the World Series. Cabrera helped the National League win. He also cheated. So Selig effectively is not only enabling cheating, he’s rewarding it.
Baseball could overturn this by simply giving home-field advantage to the team with the better record. But maybe that’s considered too radical of an idea.
By Jeff Schultz
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160 comments Add your comment
Jorge Luis
August 21st, 2012
2:11 pm
first
@DanWeiner
August 21st, 2012
2:13 pm
not just no, but hell no.
JoshTown
August 21st, 2012
2:24 pm
I’m actually not against that. Coming up with the amount of wins vacated could prove difficult, but I do agree that they need a tougher policy. Cheaters shouldn’t be rewarded, and it also hinders them getting signed by another team next year. “Well, is this guy gonna cost US 15 wins too?” and then they steer clear. Obviously these guys can weather the storm with their other millions of dollars, so something else needs to be done. And something needs to be done about the All Star Game. And getting some more instant replay calls in. And don’t even get me STARTED on the DH… Go Braves
kevin
August 21st, 2012
2:25 pm
smaller sample size and all but the Giants have a better record without Cabrera than with.
Supes
August 21st, 2012
2:27 pm
Yes, that would go a long way toward clubs “policing” their own players and not just turning a blind eye…docking wins would help. You know what would help more…random blood sample testing…and yes Ryan Braun is a bigger cheat than the Melk-Dud and not only did he NOT miss games, people still refuse to believe he’s using PED’s…MVP yeah right.
kevin
August 21st, 2012
2:29 pm
More thoughts: two schools of thought, one saying. There is no I in team. Therefore, you should not punish the team for an individual act. Or Therefore, you should punish the whole team because the actions of one which is part of the whole.
@CRuleSportsGuy
August 21st, 2012
2:30 pm
I absolutely agree with you, Jeff. What’s to stop teams from taking on possible guys like Melky in the future if they aren’t penalized?
I understand the point of “Well, they won’t have him the rest of the season, and if they make the playoffs they won’t have him then, either.” I get that. But they reaped all of that production from him ILLEGALLY – and in a game ultimately driven by the W-L record, wouldn’t vacated wins cause teams to do their drug homework on a player?
Plus, name a team that would keep taking risks once the first team lost 10-12 wins for a guilty player.
@CRuleSportsGuy
August 21st, 2012
2:31 pm
And for the record…..to those who think Ryan Braun cheated….uh, look at his production this year. You don’t think the MLB’s keeping close tabs on this guy? They don’t like being proven wrong.
Get over yourselves.
steve
August 21st, 2012
2:33 pm
Your an a & &, stupid opinion from a stupid person. Keep hiding behind your desk at home and making fun of people getting hurt. The AJC wonders why the subscription base is shrinking? Your one of the reasons, along with the other writers. Michael Carvell said the NCAA is investigating a Rubin Foster’s transfer in the state of Alabama, when was not true. When 790 the zone’s morning show calls you out on a lie, there is a major creditably problems with the AJC reporters.
Herschel Talker
August 21st, 2012
2:39 pm
Schultzie:
Melky is a piece of trash.
HT
Disbott3000
August 21st, 2012
2:44 pm
But wouldn’t that create an odd imbalance when you redistribute the wins? Say the Braves had played 6 games against the Giants and lost them all, and Washington had only played 3 games so far and won 2 of 3. Out of nowhere, the Braves would pick up 5 games on the Nationals through no fault of their own (Admittedly, I would love for this to happen, but we can’t live in a dream world.)
It’s not that it wouldn’t be fair to the team with the cheater. It’s that it might not be fair to the rest of the teams in that teams division. But, hey, if you can figure out a way to make it work in an equitable way, then go for it.
Joey
August 21st, 2012
2:44 pm
Dang, I just wish he woulda been on PEDs when he played for us . . .
say hey heyward
August 21st, 2012
2:44 pm
Great idea….only way to ever really get PEDs under control!
Chuck
August 21st, 2012
2:53 pm
Agree 100% with premise presented here, but where is the Tuesday Countdown?
DL
August 21st, 2012
2:57 pm
Not sure how I feel about taking away wins yet, but this did get me thinking about some other options. The first being fine the team. The main problem here would probably be than in order for the fine to be big enough to have a serious impact on a high revenue team, it would probably end up being more than a lower revenue could handle. My other idea is to penalize the team by forcing them to play with a smaller roster for awhile, say maybe 25 games with a 23 man roster. I think it would be similar to scholarship reductions for college teams. Just some ideas, probably very flawed one.
Bob
August 21st, 2012
2:57 pm
As a cylcing fan, SF Giants fan, and USC parent during the Bush era, I detest that the wins are marred unsatisfying and embarassing (Has the TDF testing been completed so I can celebrate Wiggins’ win?) I emphatically support a penalty that includes vacated wins. Delete, their runs scored & their RBI’s and recalculate each game’s score.
RecentWreck
August 21st, 2012
3:02 pm
Eh, baseball likes to keep a lot of statistics. Dock them at twice their WAR.
Scott
August 21st, 2012
3:08 pm
Why not figure out a system using WAR as calculated by saber metrics. Melky is 4.3 wins more valuable than an average player? His team looses 4 wins and adds 4 losses. Don’t try to figure out how it affects other records just leave those teams how they are. Incase of a tie the team with the cheater goes home.
BOO BOO And TT
August 21st, 2012
3:08 pm
WOW!!!! I wish Melky would had did this as a Brave, we could had used those extra victories…….. Instead of the extra losses that he helped create for us……
RYAN
August 21st, 2012
3:10 pm
DONT STEAL IDEAS FROM J. A. ADANDE (A WELL KNOWN SPORTS COLUMNIST) AND PUBLISH AN ARTICLE AS YOUR THOUGHT. ADANDE MENTIONED THE SAME POINTS ON AROUND THE HORN LAST WEEK! YOU SHOULD BE DOCKED FOR ENHANCING STOLEN THOUGHTS
bali
August 21st, 2012
3:10 pm
dan patrick… said give players 100 game suspension on first time being cought …..second offense lifetime ban from baseball…taking away wins would be fair also…think the courtrooms would fill up pretty quick…taking money away from the organization that the player played for might help….
MoGA
August 21st, 2012
3:12 pm
It’s hard to argue against you JS. The Giants made and will make a lot of money from his cheating. They might even gain a division title from it.
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
3:15 pm
Joey
Dang, I just wish he woulda been on PEDs when he played for us . . .
<< Now that’s funny.
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
3:17 pm
Ryan — 1) I like J.A. Adande; 2) I don’t watch Around the Horn, possibly the dumbest show ever created; 3) I wasn’t aware he proposed the same thing, but good for him.
Anything else?
Steve
August 21st, 2012
3:19 pm
Ryan is mad he didn’t come up with the idea and call MLB about it.
MatthewH
August 21st, 2012
3:24 pm
Dale Murphy also proposed this. He tweeted about it after Melky was suspended. His thinking was the same as yours: the “mob mentality” in the clubhouse would police the problem.
Vikster
August 21st, 2012
3:25 pm
It sounds like a great idea but if you take away the wins, attendance will drop and therefore revenue will drop. The Braves need to fill seats the remainder of the year so we can keep Michael Bourn. I’d hate to think that if this happened to the Braves because of the actions of some stupid kid the team gets punished and it trickles down to signing a long-term deal with one of our best free agent players. If the MLB powers that be can prove the Giants organization knew and turned the other cheek then that’s another story. Seems Melky was doing the crotch chop during the last Giants visit to make up for what he lacks in his little testoterone infused Cabreras.
Steve
August 21st, 2012
3:26 pm
Hate to tell you Vikster but Bourn will not be re-signed, unfortunately.
dawgnation1
August 21st, 2012
3:27 pm
Love the idea, Jeff. This clown got what he deserved.
FIRE HERSCHEL TALKER!! (he’s an idiot)
Bad Idea Gene
August 21st, 2012
3:28 pm
I suppose you want the NL’s ALG victory rescinded, too?
ChillyMutt
August 21st, 2012
3:30 pm
I agree Jeff. 50 game suspension seems like a slap on the wrist for Melky. Then when you add his attempt at fraud (the faked product), the severity of the suspension is laughable. And its seems logical that if you use a player that is cheating, your team should forfeit the game. The problem is proving that the player was ‘dirty’ for all games they played. Shouldn’t the team only be penalized for the games they used a ‘dirty’ player? More frequent and comprehensive testing is needed.
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
3:31 pm
MatthewH — Good for Murph! I’m sorry I missed that — follow him on Twitter and everything. Would’ve called him had I known.
Braves fan
August 21st, 2012
3:31 pm
It’s hard to control what a single player does, then penalize a team for one bone head’s decision to cheat. A 50 game suspension is a good punishment. I do, however, believe that the outcome of one single game (All-Star Game) should not determine the home field advantage for the World Series. This should provide evidence as to why the change should be made.
Here’s a good topic you next article Jeff….when will Gonzales bench Uggla?? Braves need to move Prado to second base and Reed Johnson to LF. That will improve the line up significantly. One HR ever couple weeks, combined with numerous strike-outs dictate that it is time for a change if the Braves want to play in the post season. Also, when is Simmons due back??
B
August 21st, 2012
3:31 pm
I love the idea, at the very least they should lose the number of games based on the wonderful new statistic of WAR, I know it’s not a lot, losing a guy like Melky would cost the giants somewhere around 4.5-5 games based on that method, but at the very least I think that would be an acceptable starting point…
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
3:32 pm
Vikster — “It sounds like a great idea but if you take away the wins, attendance will drop and therefore revenue will drop.”
<< Attendance would go down in S.F. — but it conceivably goes up in a city that benefits from it in the division or wild card race.
GTBob
August 21st, 2012
3:32 pm
If you take away wins then nobody will go to Giants games the rest of the season and nobody will watch Giants games on TV. This would cause a huge loss in revenue. You would effectively end the pennant race in the NL West. Are you also going to adjust other teams records who lost to the Giants? What if a team passes another team in the standings because of retroactive schedule updates? Would that be fair? Trying to erase history is always a dumb idea, no matter who is trying.
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
3:33 pm
On Bourn: I agree it’s less than 50-50 he is re-signed here because of likely asking price, but I don’t think door is shut completely. He likes it here.
yep
August 21st, 2012
3:36 pm
I don’t think you should vacate wins. Then you’ll have to figure out what to do with records of every other team that played the cheaters team. It would be easier to just rule them ineligible for the playoffs or something.
how about...
August 21st, 2012
3:38 pm
I agree, but it would be far easier to let them play in the post season, if they make it, but forfeit any associated profit ( including gate, concessions, parking, etc) and no player share payout.
Laplace's Demon
August 21st, 2012
3:38 pm
As a Dodgers fan, I wholeheartedly approve this message. The giants are cheats and scofflaws and everything they do is tainted with the stain of moral malfeasance.
Paul
August 21st, 2012
3:38 pm
Jeff,
I have to disagree with your opinion here for a couple of reasons. Mainly, the glaring difference between the NCAA and MLB is professionalism.
To dock San Fran would be to imply that they somehow participated in the cheating or performance enhacning. In the world of professional sports — particularly with a vagabond like Cabrera — the individual player looks out for himself above all else (including team) in several cases. Diva wide receivers, holdouts in the NFL, Mark Texiera, A ROD, the list goes on. These people don’t consider consequences to themselves much less to their programs while they chase their payday.
On the other hand, college athletes are gaining some advantage because of WHERE they are and WHO they are more often than HOW they perform. Obviously, bigger stats equal more cash in the backdoor handshake, but Tulane boosters aren’t as feverish as, say, USC boosters. As such, it is easier to implicate the athletic department or program in the case of the individual player or (more often) a GROUP of players.
I also don’t believe that, in one-sided cheating cases such as this one, the teacher should be fired for having a classroom with a cheating student. Such would be the case with San Fran (given our knowledge to this point)
Respectfully,
Paul @paultsullivan
Tom
August 21st, 2012
3:40 pm
I would suggest docking wins based on whatever that players WAR was during the time they were cheating. What would prevent the player from saying he just juiced up two nights ago?
And in the ever so rare case, what if it truly was an accident or false positive?
Backdoor Slider
August 21st, 2012
3:44 pm
MORE FREDI MISMANAGEMENT
Consider these well stated comments from Craig Calcaterra of Hardball Talk on Fredi’s mismanagement of the bullpen last night:
“Nationals 5, Braves 4: I suppose you can yell at Dan Uggla for messing up the play with the infield in and a runner on third in the 13th inning which allowed the winning run to score. But perhaps it’s also worth noting that the Braves played perhaps their most important game to date, in a series that, if they don’t win, the division title is basically out of reach, with their best relief pitcher sitting on his butt. But hey, at least Fredi Gonzalez saved Craig Kimbrel for a save situation that never came. Not having him then would have been terrible. Far better to leave everything up to Cristhian Martinez in a situation when a strikeout is absolutely critical, not the guy who strikes out 15.8 batters per nine innings.” — End quote.
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
3:44 pm
“Yep — I don’t think you should vacate wins. Then you’ll have to figure out what to do with records of every other team that played the cheaters team. …”
<< Not necessarily. You just take the wins away. Don’t apply them to other teams. That’s how it works in college.
Norm DePloom
August 21st, 2012
3:46 pm
The trouble with using WAR is that a few players have a negative WAR (see Francoeur, Jeff). Obviously you wouldn’t add wins to that player’s team, but there would be no team penalty in that instance. So maybe there should be a minimum penalty. For highly productive players like Cabrera there could be a scaling factor based on WAR.
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
3:46 pm
“Laplace’s Demon — As a Dodgers fan, I wholeheartedly approve this message. The giants are cheats and scofflaws and everything they do is tainted with the stain of moral malfeasance.”
<< Once you started, “As a Dodgers fan..” I could’ve figured what would follow. But kudos to you on raising the bar in commenting with “the stain of moral malfeasance.”
jake
August 21st, 2012
3:47 pm
The ASG was so lopsided I’m not sure that the melkster did anything to sway the outcome. I liked the post above. Take away his runs scored and his RBI’s, adjust the score of every game he produced a run in, and recalculate the team’s record.
Loyal Fan
August 21st, 2012
3:50 pm
I totally agree with some kind of formula. These teams need to hold their players accountable even if it affects the whole team win record. Melky’s incident should be a wake up call to the MLB that what they are doing isn’t working. Its not good enough.
Oh ya, and to the poster, Steve, you mad bro? If you don’t like the Ajc, don’t read it. No one wants to hear your rants on here about the AJC. I am not a big fan of Carvell either, but this news is about informing the public and can widely be considered as entertainment this days. The whole Reuben thing would be as absurd you if Auburn never had a track record of cheating or even had a track record of being investigated on Cam’s deal. That is why you can comment now on these blogs, so people can talk about these issues.
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
3:51 pm
1) To deny that SF didn’t participate in cheating would be like denying USC should’ve been held responsible for Reggie Bush’s parents living rent free in a house, or boosters giving money to players. Doesn’t matter if a coach or school official is directly implicated or not.
2) I am of belief that athletes would be so ostracized by peers if team was penalized that it would make a difference in their decisions.
3) Please, no analogies with teachers. Because then we’re going to get into what teachers get paid as opposed to what coaches get paid. Doesn’t work. Besides, the teacher has relatively nothing to gain by student cheating. The team has everything to gain by the athlete cheating.
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
3:54 pm
I would like to put a moratorium on any reference to WAR or any statistic I consider stupid, which in this case would be most statistics, or anything created by the Bill James School of Pocket Protectors.
Ted M
August 21st, 2012
3:56 pm
Taking wins away is simply unworkable and as such will never be considered.
The players associations has to make the stand here an increase the suspension. Everyone should be griping about the players association cause its gonna take public pressure on them for something to happen.
Chris
August 21st, 2012
4:01 pm
Lets fine papers for poorly written articles.
Sugar Bear Blanks
August 21st, 2012
4:01 pm
Are you suggesting that the wins simply be taken away? Or awarded to the teams that LOST those games? I agree that the wins should be taken away – but Don’t adjust the losing teams record
Paul
August 21st, 2012
4:01 pm
Difference is it can be reasonably inferred thatbush got benefit bc he was at USC and gettin house from booster tied to school. Kelly not cheating because of San Fran so far as we know
Joe
August 21st, 2012
4:03 pm
Melky’s a disgrace to baseball. We know this. But this imaginary penalty is the stupidest idea thought up on the matter. If you implement this then EVERY World Series title from 1990-2009 has to be stricken from the records. To even compare NCAA measures with the MLB is just plain idiotic.
Melky’s off the team. Hopefully for good. If SF has any sense they won’t resign him. His 50 games is already a blow to the team and the remainder of the season is in jeopardy. That’s punishment enough. Is it really implausible that the team was in the dark on this matter? Melky rigged up a whole fake business and fooled investigators for a long time. To punish the likes of Buster Posey because of one selfish guy is irresponsible.
John
August 21st, 2012
4:08 pm
I absolutely agree that teams should be docked some amount of victories, if a member of a relay team at the Olympics tests positive, doesn’t the TEAM lose the medal? (not sure here.)
In any case, if a team were to lose victories as a result of a player testing positive maybe some team and peer pressure will come into play here. The Bargaining Agreement and the Players Association appear to only be interested in protecting the payers and their overinflated salaries, benefits and egos- maybe hitting the teams will do some good!
GTBob
August 21st, 2012
4:08 pm
I agree that the wins should be taken away – but Don’t adjust the losing teams record
If the Giants were cheating then why should the teams they played be punished with a loss? Basically you are retroactively putting all of the Giants opponents in an unfair position. They had to play against a cheating team which hurt their record.
jason
August 21st, 2012
4:09 pm
Suspend him, fine the team, vacate wins. Home field advantage should always go to the team with the best record. Haven’t enjoyed an all-star game since the change.
urban redneck
August 21st, 2012
4:12 pm
i would think this was terrible if mark bradley wrote it. go bravos.
sidslid
August 21st, 2012
4:15 pm
Bud Selig;
Deer in headlights on the All Star Game tie
Deer in headlights at the Bonds homerun
Most exciting hour in baseball history last year impossible to duplicate with the additional wildcard
Instant cameras to be used at All Star Game stuck in China (Goodell would have had Jerry Jones rent a plane to get them)
Openly campaigning for Minnesota, a relatively successful franchise, to be subject of contraction where it happens to be in proximity to his Brewers
Toothless drug policy that only snags minor leaguers
His minions strangely boggle a drug suspension for a reigning MVP
Baseball now being played in November (even Bowie would have to wear a coat)
Really, the worst commissioner in the history of any sport
joeybiten
August 21st, 2012
4:16 pm
How about a similar penalty for college sports except on an individual basis…example, you commit a crime, you’re out of the program/lose your scholarship. military men the same age as college athletes must abide by the rules or else face the consequences.
Bruzer
August 21st, 2012
4:20 pm
I agree with Neal Bortz on the matter of taking away wins from any team for any infraction. While some can argue that it is effective, the reality is that the players and fans associated with the wins in question know the truth. It’s like saying “remember that person you had sex with in college – well I am taking that away – it didn’t happen.”. Really? I know and they know it happened.
Just seems like a silly penalty.
Alternative? Increase the suspension times and fine amounts.
JREV
August 21st, 2012
4:22 pm
Money talks. Instead of docking wins, dock the PAY instead and also fine the team a significant amount. Melky should lose his entire years’ salary, or at least a large chunk of it. Along with a long suspension, of course. This goes along with a consistent, drug-testing environment (for performance-enhancing drugs…I couldn’t care less about whether they had smoked marijuana). Docking wins is not the way to go imo. I guarantee you that players care a great deal more about their salaries (and potential future contracts) than they do their teams or fans. If they knew they could lose not only their salary, but potentially their career…THAT would be a much bigger deterrent than docking wins, and be a whole lot more fair.
While we’re at, impose a salary cap as well. It’s annoying to see the same teams at the top every year just because they generate more revenue or have deeper pockets. The Phillies notwithstanding. This would be good for the game, imo.
How much is enough?
August 21st, 2012
4:28 pm
So how much of a fine would it take to really touch a ballplayer in the pocket? How long should a suspension be? I think cheaters should be out of sports, period. Cabrera is laughing all the way to the bank. Also, great ballgame you coached last night, Fredi. Maybe he and Cabrera can help each other pack. They are both a waste of skin.
taylor
August 21st, 2012
4:29 pm
Melky has a WAR of 4.8 on the season. Why not take away 5 wins?
Jim
August 21st, 2012
4:31 pm
You are RIGHT on!!! At a minimum, the games should start from the point of his test.
How much is enough?
August 21st, 2012
4:33 pm
He needs to be hit where it hurts; in the pocket. He didn’t seem to be worried while he was making up his wild story, or doing the drugs. Just get rid of him and be done with it. That should set an example. The wishy washy rinky dink policy in place now obviously isn’t working.
Ken Stallings
August 21st, 2012
4:35 pm
Jeff, docking wins is a good idea. But, what about something more such as forfeiture of post-season eligibility? That would be as the NCAA does, but it would certainly encourage teams to take the matter seriously, and that might include using some common sense in trying to find out why a middle of a career player suddenly starts producing better numbers than ever before.
meh
August 21st, 2012
4:36 pm
Something should punish the team for benefiting from the rules being broken. Players should be banned and their records expunged. (Hank Aaron would still be the home run king.)
Ted M
August 21st, 2012
4:36 pm
Basketball has a salary cap and yet the same teams always play for the championship, a lot more then baseball in fact.
otto
August 21st, 2012
4:38 pm
I wonder if those that think vacating wins is the answer think the Braves should take down the 1991 banner because of Otis Nixon’s drug suspension? C’mon, get real folks!
the Crew
August 21st, 2012
4:39 pm
Braun seems to be doing pretty well this year off the roids… because he was never on them. What kind of guy would rather be known as the Herpe King than a roider?
The Great Tobias
August 21st, 2012
4:41 pm
Again, Schultz, you are proving yourself an idiot. Yes, the punishment should be more severe, but you cannot punish the whole team for one persons actions. Each player cannot be babysat daily. When I was in the USMC, we used mass punishment in situations where sometimes, people would be punished for the actions of people that they didn’t even know. This just bred un-wanted, and un-needed hostility towards one another. It didn’t fix anything. Some idiot would still drink and drive, or do something stupid, and the unit would get punished again. Mass punishment doesn’t work, and it’s very unfair. To punish the team is not the answer. After being cought, a player should be forced to sit without pay for the rest of the year, and this year should be removed from their contract as well. A second offense, should be removed from baseball completely. Banned.
Mark
August 21st, 2012
4:45 pm
I’d take 10 wins for the first offense, 20 for the second and all others. Any team that can still win by losing 10 wins or 20 wins, didn’t need the guy anyway. Take 10 from the Giants and the season is over now, but earlier they could still recover. Same with Braves. The peer pressure alone would clean it up – as it is now, the players think they can overcome anything and the suspension doesn’t hit their pocketbooks.
Sundrop Kid
August 21st, 2012
4:46 pm
Thank you for this article Mr. Schultz. You seem to be the ONLY AJC writer with any common sense and logic. While I’m at it, thanks also for speaking out about the Braves and its manager when it’s deserved, which is quite often.
Nativebird
August 21st, 2012
4:51 pm
Absolutely vacate wins. Until the innocenent feel the pain of not doing enough to clean up the trash, then the trash will rule. PEDS users are very much like terrorists who hide among the innocent population. The good guys will never ever be able to root them out without de facto collateral damage…but that is not the good guys fault….it’s the terrorists’. As soon as say the Giants or other contending club misses the playoffs due to one of their bonehead PED users, I guarantee you the other players will a. Firstly kick his arse, and b. refuse to play on the same team with him forcing the club to release him, and c. Turn in any future player they ever get wind of using again….and THEY know, don’t believe it they don’t.
GaGrandma
August 21st, 2012
4:55 pm
The players union in way too strong and the owners are afraid of them. Getting paid while being suspended for drugs is ridiculous. And the owners are at fault. It would be more of a punishment if they missed a few paychecks. Now, it is a paid vacation for cheating.
The union should fight for better scheduling and a day off if you fly to the coast, especially if you are forced to fly after a night game and play the next day.
George Stein
August 21st, 2012
4:56 pm
This is perhaps the silliest piece I’ve ever read from you, Jeff. Hell, this puts the six man rotation nonsense to shame. Let’s see what we have here:
1) You claim that the PEDs are the reason that his performance his increased this season. I think PEDs have some non-zero impact, but I’d love to read the research you have read to support your conclusion here.
2) Taking away wins doesn’t eliminate the incentive to cheat. I think one of the things fans forget is that players want to win, but they want to get paid more than they want to win. If a player thinks he can increase future earnings by cutting corners, he will do it.
3) How many wins get taken away? All of them? Please. Also, what about teams that aren’t contending? The players on those teams have an increased incentive to cheat.
4) Saying that clean players would be unfairly punished by pointing to the NCAA isn’t a reason. End of discussion.
5) What proof do you have to support your contention for more self-policing?
schmo
August 21st, 2012
4:57 pm
I’ve always thought home-field in the Series should be given to them team with the better record. Selig is an incompetent windbag and he needs to be replaced.
Just Asking
August 21st, 2012
5:04 pm
Do teams that trade a player who is using PED’s and get draft picks and money and perhaps even players in return be responsible for the false record of that player they traded? Or should “Let the Buyer Be Ware,” be the motto of the day?
What players are having a “significantly,” better year this season than ever before? In other words, who should MLB suspect of using PED’s?
dc24
August 21st, 2012
5:10 pm
I haven’t looked through all of the comments to know if this has been talked about yet. My only reservation would be, how could you tell when the player started taking the PED and where to start taking wins from?
If Melky didn’t start juicing until June, and was caught in August…Do you take away the wins from April and May? Not that this is the case, but I wouldn’t want to penalize a team as a whole before rules had been broken.
Delbert D.
August 21st, 2012
5:11 pm
Taking the wins (and holds and saves) away from those San Francisco pitchers in the Melky games will upset them. They get to keep the losses, right?
Here's a suggestion.
August 21st, 2012
5:11 pm
Take away any direct results of his play. All RBIs, all subsequent runs as a result of his keeping innings going, etc. That way it’s not some subjective result.
Kraig
August 21st, 2012
5:12 pm
“I would like to put a moratorium on any reference to WAR or any statistic I consider stupid, which in this case would be most statistics, or anything created by the Bill James School of Pocket Protectors.”
Is this because you don’t understand those stats or do you still think stats like wins or RBIs are the best we will ever have and why do we need to bother with anything else?
While we are at putting moratoriums in place, I would like to place a moratorium on sportswriters getting up in arms everytime someone gets busted for PEDs (although it is funny that I don’t recall seeing an outcry over Freddy Galvis this year) until they do some investigation themselves on what actual effect the PED the player took had on the games they played. I get that it’s easier to create righteous stances to drive page clicks rather than to do investigative reporting and see if you can come up with some conclusive data to support your views but maybe you’re just afraid of having to admit that maybe you were wrong.
George Stein
August 21st, 2012
5:15 pm
Seconded, Kraig.
Delbert D.
August 21st, 2012
5:17 pm
Also, the RBIs from players who drove home Melky, and runs scored by players who Melky batted in. Do all that, and teammates will tend to self-police the problem of OEDs in sports. Chances are, guys like Melky will be on the disabled list a lot from broken bones.
Langston
August 21st, 2012
5:21 pm
“I would like to put a moratorium on any reference to WAR or any statistic I consider stupid, which in this case would be most statistics, or anything created by the Bill James School of Pocket Protectors.”
It’s amazing people like this even get hired to write. Schultz gets dumber with every article.
Delbert D.
August 21st, 2012
5:25 pm
Maybe requiring players to use steroids would work. Sort of like requiring all citizens to have guns.
Cheer Shepard
August 21st, 2012
5:33 pm
Suspensions for doping in Olympic sports are measured out in years. So should they be for all American professional sports. That’s my opinion, I welcome yours.
Stinger2
August 21st, 2012
5:43 pm
Kraig: What statistictis more important than wins? I always thought that
it is the only one that really matters. Am I wrong?
Delbert D.
August 21st, 2012
5:44 pm
I can’t recall how many wins were taken away by the George Brett tarred bat incident.
Stinger2
August 21st, 2012
5:44 pm
Kraig: Sorry about bad spelling: statistic.
"Chef" Tim Dix
August 21st, 2012
5:57 pm
lifetime ban. that’ll end it.
Kraig
August 21st, 2012
6:06 pm
Stinger:
Wins are very much a team stat rather than an individual stat. A pitcher does have certain control on run prevention but once the ball is put in play he has no control over what the result of that action might be (let alone controlling his team’s offense or whether or not the bullpen can protect the lead). Let’s look at this another way. Take these two pitchers from 2011 (I’ll even leave out WAR for our esteemed columnist):
Pitcher A: 220.0 IP, 186 H, 71 ER, 198-55 K-BB, 1.09 WHIP, 2.88 ERA
Pitcher B: 216.0 IP, 169 H, 67 ER, 194-44 K-BB, 0.99 WHIP, 2.79 ERA
Looking at those stats you probably would conclude that Pitcher B had a little better season than Pitcher A but their in the same ballpark.
Pitcher A is Ian Kennedy who went 21-4
Pitcher B is Cole Hamels who went 14-9
I await a plausible explaination on why Hamels had 7 fewer wins (and 5 more losses) than Kennedy when all of his stats were better than Kennedy’s.
AFF
August 21st, 2012
6:07 pm
1/9th of the team; forfeit 1/9th of the wins in games he played.
Delbert D.
August 21st, 2012
6:16 pm
Make the users participate in the government studies on the link between bath salts and cannibalism.
Game Changer
August 21st, 2012
6:19 pm
@schultz
Testing is done weekly and two players are assigned to the testers at random from the league on both teams at that time. More than one test exist but and your article is not very well researched on your behalf. I like you as a writer and how you report but on this subject you are not close to the real story. For the most part MLB has cleaned the league up and very little cheating in the form of enhancers is taking place.
I and others could make a list of those that were juiced in the past and then look at the last couple of years or past few years. Braves have a second baseman that cannot produce at major league levels, it is 100% enhancers. Uggla average home run at miami was around 395 before all the testing and changes, it was a given that he would not produce at MLB levels hitting. 210 average this year.
Game Changer
August 21st, 2012
6:21 pm
More than one tester is testing on the weekly night. just correcting the sentence for better understanding
Delbert D.
August 21st, 2012
6:28 pm
Check out Adam Dunn 2011 vs. Adam Dunn 2012
Delbert D.
August 21st, 2012
6:29 pm
It took him awhile to get “established” in Chicago.
Stinger2
August 21st, 2012
6:29 pm
Kraig:Thanks for the reply and illustration.
Actually I was thinking about team wins and you were saying individual wins.
Could an explanation be that Hamels had fewer wins/more losses due to poor runs support and lost some 2-1, or even shoutouts?
Delbert D.
August 21st, 2012
6:31 pm
I did not really say that; it was put out by a SuperPAC, over which I have no control.
Skeezix
August 21st, 2012
6:34 pm
Yes! Yes! Yes! Take away the wins! Suspensions should be longer. The Giants coaches/management/other players had to know something was up. Of course the Giants are a regular doping factory with all the dopers they’ve had; with of course, Bonds being the biggest doper of all.
Kraig
August 21st, 2012
6:40 pm
Stinger:
The bullpen could have certainly been a culprit as well. When you factor in those things individual wins actually tell very little of the story in how good a pitcher is (or isn’t).
oldfart
August 21st, 2012
7:27 pm
If Selig wasn’t an owner by proxy he would have already been fired. Owners enjoyed the steroid induced HR derbies so no real action took place until their hand was forced. That short time burst of stats was not worth losing the integrity of the game comparable to the Black Sox Scandal. Baseball needs another Kenesaw Mountain Landis. If gambling is cause for being excommunicated for life then so should steroids.
......And they said steoids don't work
August 21st, 2012
7:50 pm
One year ban for first offense and life time ban for second offense. For idiots like Cabrera that try to pad his salary in free agency on the walk year, throw in this poison pill – take away 10 wins from the team that signs him in the first year of the contract. It would be very difficult for a team to sign him knowing that they will have ten wins taken away.
Hillbilly D
August 21st, 2012
8:02 pm
I come to this party late but as I’ve mentioned before, how about making the team play with 24 players, for the entire length of the suspension? If it really hurts the teams, they’ll do something about it.
Most folks probably don’t remember but back in the late 70’s, NASCAR had trouble with the use of nitrous oxide, in the cars. They finally got a handle on that. What they did was they announced a fine and suspension for the next person caught. The kicker was, every time anyone was caught after that, the suspension and the fine doubled, each time. They caught 2 or 3 and people figured out it wasn’t worth the risk.
bananajacket
August 21st, 2012
8:35 pm
I hate cheaters, but hurting innocent others is wrong. And you might want to look back at the Atlanta Public School System to see if you really believe (some) teachers and administrators have nothing to gain by having cheating students. I don’t have a perfect solution but a “shotgun” approach is one of the worst, in my opinion.
Tn Vol
August 21st, 2012
9:19 pm
Hey I like the idea of the team playing with 24 men instead of 25 while a player is suspended. But what I don’t like is all the complaining and shortsightedness about the all star game. I mean who would be watching the games now if the mockery had continued…..Barry Bonds picking up Tori Hunter in mock anger after he robbed him of a home run…..it was a BORING exhibition game. Would you really rather see that kind of game, of course not, so what else would you do? I don’t want to see the cheap shots like Pete Rose took on Ray Fosse again but it was a much more exciting game than what it evolved into before Selig implimented the winner having home field advantage. I mean it doesn’t take much to just gripe and complain without any other suggestion…..well there is politics.
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
9:32 pm
The Great Tobias — I don’t respond to comments that begin, “You are an idiot,” other than with, “No, actually that would be you.” But when you improve a few IQ points, let me know and I’ll be happy to debate you.
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
9:32 pm
Sundrop Kid — Thanks.
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
9:36 pm
Game Changer — I believe heavy use of PEDS are down, but I also believe it’s still common. A lot of ways around testing. Victor Conte had a lot of interesting things to say on this topic last week. Testing is done at stadium, not at home. So players can put on topical steroid cream after games in low doses and it’s not detectable by time get to stadium next day. It’s not as high doses as injecting stuff when HR totals were going crazy, but cheating still going on.
So who doesn’t do research, Einstein?
Jeff Schultz
August 21st, 2012
9:39 pm
“Jeff Schultz is an idiot” — You’re banned (and not because of your juvenile screen name).
Taylor Wooten
August 21st, 2012
10:10 pm
You are spot on. But that lame, milk toast of a Commissioner aint gonna do a thing
the truth...
August 21st, 2012
10:21 pm
Fine the teams…………half their payroll……………..
Fine the GMs 25% or their salary
Fine the Managers 25% of their salary
Reduce the teams 40 man roster to 40 or 35………….
Then the teams will police themselves……….
JD
August 21st, 2012
10:37 pm
No, Melky should have been suspended for two seasons. Players would be cleaner and wouldn’t hire the agents that agree to get involved in things like this. Teams have no right to control players’ trainers and associates.
Bradley Curse
August 21st, 2012
11:04 pm
“teams should be docked wins”
they say “never say never” but I can honestly say this will never happen. Just to many powerful groups to overcome in order to institute it; MLB itself, GMs, Owners, the Player’s Association, and in some part the fans themselves
Bob the Blogger
August 21st, 2012
11:37 pm
The problem with redistributing wins is that it turns the numbers of baseball into a mess. Which pitchers do you take the wins from? Which opposing pitchers do you give the wins to? How do you determine the winning pitcher when the team wasn’t ahead at the end of the game?
I think a cleaner solution would be to add a combination of team penalties such as fines and loss of draft picks at a level that would more than offset the additional wins that resulted from cheating. As I understand it, Melkey’s salary can be applied to his replacement. What if the amount of his salary had to be paid as a fine, plus the loss of next year’s first round draft pick. That would hurt.
JASon
August 21st, 2012
11:46 pm
“I would love to hear an argument against this”
Ok, here you go. Test everyone. All the time. Then nobody uses any banned substances, no discussion necessary.
Ken
August 22nd, 2012
12:00 am
Simple…For the team: From the last test passed to the recent failed test, erase the stats from the box scores. Runs scored by the cheater are removed. RBI’s are removed. Outfield assists at home are removed. At the end, check the resulting score. This could have cost the Giants 10+ wins, equals out of the playoff race. I believe many GM’s would hesitate to sign a player if this were the penalty, serving as a stiff deterrent. 60 RBI and 80 runs scored made a big difference for the Giants this year. Pitchers forfeiting wins would hurt. Regular drug testing by teams would be in place to protect themselves.
For the player: suspension from the test caught date through the complete following season, (162+ games) and a null and voided contract. It was probably signed using inflated numbers as well.
Boo hoo, cheaters!
Jaron
August 22nd, 2012
12:23 am
Hows this argument? Would you be making the same argument if he was caught cheating on the Braves? Doubt it, try not to be such a tool next time.
Jaron
August 22nd, 2012
12:33 am
Forgive my initial outburst of emotion. Allow me to clarify I am a giants fan since I started watching baseball and any fellow fans of mine feel cheated by Melky, not the league. I would love if we could roll back the clock and bring in someone else who isn’t a cheater, but we cant, so we must endure a pennant race without our hypothetical good sport. If it could be proven the giants knew about this and did nothing, your argument would have merit, but until the league changes the rules requiring teams to periodically test their own players, it does not have any.
Ken
August 22nd, 2012
1:13 am
Hey Jaron, surprised to hear you’re a Giants fan, but a Braves fan I am not…In fact, I married into a family of Giants fans who are just as disappointed as you. That being said, I bet you are proud that G. Moto will be back to contribute for the “playoff run.” Believe me, if the penalty were to cost, say, Matt Cain 3 wins, that were to affect his contract negotiations, and so on, the players would actually demand increased testing, but they seem to have appreciated his efforts so far this year. Bud $elig is the tool, Donald Fehr is the tool, I am merely a fan who loves the game. Have some perspective for the Penn State PLAYERS who forfeited SEASONS because their COACH was a molester, having nothing to do with on field performance! Baseball could clean up their operations, but there are too many rea$on$ not to. At least Melky’s next suspension will only be 100 games, thanks MLBPA!
R.R.
August 22nd, 2012
1:13 am
hear hear jeff! subtract the cheating player’s WAR from his team(s) at the end of the season. #thatwaseasy
Jaron
August 22nd, 2012
1:28 am
Ken I wasn’t calling you a tool, just the writer of the article. If you married into giants fans you must be a smart man. I don’t think we need Mota either we have done just fine without him and so far we haven’t missed Melky either that much. Mota is apparently coming back though, nothing I can do about it. The difference in the Penn State deal and this one (besides the blatantly obvious) is it has been proven people throughout the organization knew about Sandusky’s actions and either covered it up, or underestimated the seriousness, enabling that monster to commit his atrocities for years. Those within the organization at Penn State who were in any way aware of the situation and did nothing defied the law and common human decency. Not the case with the Giants. As I referenced above, without the proper rules in place, the giants cannot be held responsible for melky’s actions, even if they knew about it. However, given the Barry Bonds history, I highly doubt they’d have turned a blind eye if they did
Payton34
August 22nd, 2012
7:24 am
What about other sports? How many players in the NFL and NBA use PEDs. Your anti-sabermetrics stance is silly. It is like the people that only wanted to use batting average to judge a hitter.
On to something
August 22nd, 2012
7:58 am
Penalizing the team would certainly make the offender a pariah among his teammates and, quite likely, make teams avoid the players like the plague as the punishment would be harsh (good luck signing with someone else). Quite possibly it would end the person’s career. In other words, it makes perfect sense.
heartofdarkness
August 22nd, 2012
8:57 am
The effects of penalizing professional teams wins for the actions of their employees may have the benefits of inducing the owners of baseball teams into a more co-operative posture in policing the games, rather than allowing the distraction of collective bargaining to operate as a cover for issues they would rather ignore. A mandatory testing regime sufficient to penetrate the latest known technologies employed to avoid detection would probably require action by parties outside baseball, i.e., Congress.
They might find this issue a useful diversion from their duties involving running the government, although they appear to have a sufficient supply at the moment.
Nativebird
August 22nd, 2012
9:32 am
Dollars to donuts all these apologists crying about the “shotgun approach”‘ and “mass punishment” are the worshippers, the believers, that the player himself is the God in which the baseball world revolves around, and therefore not all of the hard working investors and stakeholders including the fans that love the game and respect the game, enables and provides the game they claim to love, and it’s beauty and historical and cultural positive impact it has had on our society. These self haters simply love to worship their fantasy stars who are omnipotent in their mind (to the point they actually consider them some twisted form of slave) due to the apparent missing adequacies in their own lives.
Defending abject and proven cheaters clearly points to a level of neuroses.
vietnamvet
August 22nd, 2012
9:44 am
Make the player responsible for his actions. Void the contract of any player found guilty of using PEDS.
vietnamvet
August 22nd, 2012
9:44 am
Make the player responsible for his actions. Void the contract of any player found guilty of using PEDS.
vietnamvet
August 22nd, 2012
9:44 am
Make the player responsible for his actions. Void the contract of any player found guilty of using PEDS.
DetroitBraves
August 22nd, 2012
10:09 am
This is a specious argument, appealing to emotion rather than any real logic. But despite arguments we’ve had in the past I like ol’ Jeff so I’m going to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Plus George Stein has already articulated the pertinent counters very well, as he often does. I would however like to know why WAR and other saber stats are “stupid”. I can see not having much interest, and even being rubbed wrong if one feels they are foreced upon him or her, but actually stupid? Devoid of thought or reason? That seems far-fetched. Especially given that every major league club has an analytics department, often employing analysts that have spent time at places like BP, Fangraphs, and BR. That doesn’t in and of itself validate the metrics, but it does imply credibility within the industry.
Mister Frisky
August 22nd, 2012
10:59 am
Good Morning Schultzie,How you liking YOUR stand pat Braves?
Ned
August 22nd, 2012
11:32 am
If such a policy were to be applied “historically” it would potentially void championship years for the Clemens/Giambi Yankees of 10-12 years ago, wouldn’t it?
maria
August 22nd, 2012
12:03 pm
I also think the player found to be using drugs should have his stats pulled. So any player would return
to a clean slate. All those bogus high stats would be gone forever.
TD
August 22nd, 2012
12:11 pm
One thing that really bothers me about your writing Jeff is that you get over emotional on various topics, and it quickly falls apart from there, logic-wise. WHENEVER you write an article that contains issues of morality, your arguments frequently fall short, or are way off base. Look, it’s great to get emotional at the Braves game in rooting for your team. But here, this should be more than a shotgun opinion, which you unequivocally show. The Saints bounty issue is a great example. Your obvious dislike of Payton should not color your commentary. Vilma, no matter what any yahoo here thinks – and wow, are there a lot of yahoos here- deserves a full accounting from th NFL. Btw, I am from LA originally, and I have NO allegiance to the Saints, so spare me. And speaking of LA, Jeff, you are as far from Jim Murray, who I read for years, as it gets.
Comparing pro sports & the NCAA is an apples to oranges thing. C’mon, really. That’s your argument? And btw, the NCAA punishment is ridiculous. Your argument that “that’s the way it is” is as short sighted as you typically are with regard to moral issues in sports. What should happen in those instances is that the coaches who are involved should be suspended, or banned, from the game. I’m with you 100% on lifting the first time penalty to 100 games, or the remainder of the season, whichever is longer. Not even in law enforcement is the collective whole punished with jail time. The firm of an inside trader who’s convicted is not sent to jail as well. Your randomly assigned 20% thing? Where is that coming from? Not your brain, if you get my drift….You could never prove any team is complicit in the taking of steroids. As you yourself said, the entire league was guilty & essentially the only people punished were a handful pf players – by keeping them out of the Hall of Fame.
In the end, MLB is not serious about catching offenders. The testing process is full of holes. Bud Selig, you money grabbing sleaze bag, seal up those holes. You want a draconian measure? Lifetime ban for any first time offender. Period. You’re done. But the argument of taking away wins, et al, IS stupid. And Jeff, do yourself a favor. Get to Emory, or GT, and take an evening class in Ethics & Logic, and refrain from the emotional outbursts you are prone to. You wanna get emotional. Here comes another season where the Braves don’t win the World Series. Those lack of moves you pretty much stood behind…yeah, wrong again, Jeff. Sooty, no extra credit given for the 11th hour (read: August) columns calling for something to be done now.
bfred
August 22nd, 2012
1:26 pm
While I philosophically agree with the concept I think it’s a practical impossiblity. What COULD be done, however, is to require teams to pay the player’s foregone salary as a fine (potentially plus some to ensure it hurts) and lose rights to any MLB media participation. The Royals might not care about the latter since they don’t get much airtime, but you can bet the Giants would miss being on Sunday Night Baseball.
bfred
August 22nd, 2012
1:30 pm
Just noticed Bob the Blogger made similar suggestions above – I think this (including the loss of draft picks) is the most realistic way to create a culture of self-policing in the game.
Taylor Wooten
August 22nd, 2012
3:29 pm
Maybe the Commissioner should be held accountable.
Tony D
August 22nd, 2012
7:07 pm
How about reducing the roster by however many players get suspended ?
Mark
August 22nd, 2012
7:10 pm
Every year, several NFL players are suspended for PED use — suspensions are 4 games, a lower percentage of the season than MLB. Have you written an article calling for longer suspensions and forfeiture of games in the NFL? If not, why not? Why pick on baseball?
By the way, forfeiting games is a lamebrained concept. You going to refund the money the patrons spent at those games that are declared null and void? Suddenly drop a team from first to fifth? Silly in the extreme. This is a business.
Regular Season Links – 8/23/2012 - Goodsportsart Blog = Baseball news
August 23rd, 2012
6:12 am
[...] MLB’s drug policy too soft — teams should be docked wins [...]
bvilebaron
August 23rd, 2012
10:43 am
How about because it is a stupid idea which starts with a terrible premise–that anything the NCAA does, in this instance vacating wins retroractively, is worthy of praise or being copied. Besides who and how would you determine what number of wins should be taken away as being fair? Do you propose that the only which should be taken away are those where the cheating player played well? Do you feel that the removed wins should bear some rational relationship to the length of time the player was cheating? If so, how do you detemine that? Ultimtely, it is very hard to claim that the outcome of any given game was DETERMINED by the play of ANY single player, cheating on drugs or not.
I say the way to stop cheating is to increase the penalities for the cheater, such as an automatic 1 year suspension for a first offense and a permanant ban for a second offense. While you and I may think that is a great idea, good luck with getting it by the players’ union. .
mrnatural
August 24th, 2012
7:03 pm
I agree 100 percent with the idea that teams should give up wins in the games won where a PED offender has played. You can not tell me that teammates, coaches, trainers and managers in this day and age cannot tell when a player is using. They (wink-wink) look the other way when the supercharged player is helping create wins and then act in shock when the truth comes out. BS. They know and those wins affect division and wild card races. Make the teams police themselves by making the penalties severe. Stop the madness before you make this beautiful game a joke. .
bucky oneil
August 25th, 2012
9:30 am
Agree, Agree, Agree…………
6-man rotation, however, Disagree, Disagree,Disagree!
George
August 25th, 2012
8:57 pm
Suggest the club be docked 20% of their receipts from the gate and concessions, home and away, during the suspension. in lieu of wins.
Ted Turner
August 26th, 2012
11:00 am
You can’t dock wins. It’s unfair to the league. I am all for life time bans in the cases of recent history though…If Pete Rose is banned for life for betting he’d win, then these guys should be for truely cheating.
TheVoz
August 26th, 2012
11:42 am
I don’t believe we should vacate wins from a team simply because you can’t punish a whole team for what one team member did. And also, say if Melky had tested positive while he was with the Braves having a horrible year, should we vacate the Braves wins even though he had little to no impact on their wins? I do agree that we should come up with a more harsher punishment. I believe that 1st time offenders should be suspended for a year and if they are in contract the team should have the option to terminate the contract. 2nd time offenders should be banned.
College football, Week 1: Somehow it keeps getting better | Pack for College
August 26th, 2012
9:13 pm
[...] – MLB’s drug process too soothing — teams should be docked wins [...]
PEPr
August 27th, 2012
2:00 pm
Apparently, Atlanta area school systems teachers had some motivation to change the answers on tests. Just saying—–
Sell the Team back to Ted or to Madeia
August 27th, 2012
5:14 pm
Amend, schulztie, Amend.
Sell the Team back to Ted or to Madeia
August 27th, 2012
5:18 pm
btw, GHSA vacates wins all the time when a student who is ineligible is found out…..lol. Its the only way Coffee High could beat Valdosta after 20 something tries.
OldTimer
August 27th, 2012
7:55 pm
Chipper shouldn’t be batting over 300 at his age and don’t tell me Jeter isn’t juicing. The root cause of the problem is Selig. He doesn’t have the gnads to clean it up.
deano
August 29th, 2012
11:25 am
Dock players stats too.Mcguire,Bonds,Sosa.Clemens,etc.1 chance to tell truth to keep non doped stats.See Lance Armstrong wiped out.
Heisenberg
August 30th, 2012
5:07 pm
I am mixed on the docking of wins. But one way to penalize the club is to not allow them to replace the suspended player on the active roster. Under this scenario, Giants would have to go 1 man down on bench or bullpen for next 50 games. Union would probably whine and complain though. To get around that they can call a guy up but before each game would have to declare someone (other than previous 4 games starting pitcher) inactive for that game. The inactive player would still get paid to satisfy union.
Also any player caught should be ineligible for any and all individual post season awards/titles.
Braves fan who puts team over the individual player
August 30th, 2012
7:39 pm
Score 4 runs in 3 games in San Diego. Made their pitching staff look like Cy Young candidates.
Looks like another September collapse.
Odelay
August 30th, 2012
7:44 pm
I appreciate your creativity, Mr. Schultz, but this is not a path baseball needs to go down. This will only lead to World Championships being revoked, ala NCAA, which cheapens the prize and makes the whole thing that much more meaningless. You’re taking a terrible act by the players and punishing the fans. No thank you.
Nevrfolow
September 1st, 2012
9:26 pm
Just leave everything the way it is and put an asterisk by it. Giants style baby.
Nevrfolow
September 1st, 2012
9:34 pm
There is a win above replacement stat(WAR). Which cabreras is 4.5. So dock the giants 5 games if you chose to do that or maybe it should be pro rated to the 113 games he played.