FSU to Big 12? School has inflated idea of self-worth
Jimbo Fisher and Florida State might think brand is worth more than it really is. (AP photo)
There is only one thing that throws me about this Florida State-to-the-Big-12 rumor that has been growing and mutating over the past several days: Do school officials consider themselves some kind of super power? Because I believe time machines are not applicable here.
In the last six years, Florida State has played in the Emerald Bowl, the Music City Bowl, the Champs Sports Bowl, the Gator Bowl, the Chick-fil-A Bowl and the Champs Sports Bowl again.
They have played in one BCS bowl (Orange) in the last eight seasons (and lost). They haven’t won any BCS bowl game since the national title 12 years ago.
They haven’t won the ACC since 2005. They have played in only one ACC championship game in the last six seasons.
Before a school starts making financial demands and threatening to change conferences, shouldn’t it at least have to win the ACC Atlantic Division more frequently than Boston College?
This, of course, is all about money. The problem is that Florida State is living in its super power past. It’s frustrated that the ACC is not the SEC. Every conference is frustrated that it’s not the SEC. But, sorry, when a conference wins six straight national championships, the result is not going to be a level playing field, least of all when it comes to television revenue.
The ACC and ESPN recently announced a 15-year, $3.6 billion contract. That averages out to $17.1 million per school per year, which certainly seems good. But the fact that the deal is back-loaded — it will take nine years before schools see a $17.1 million take – has some members grumbling, particularly Florida State, whose athletic department is facing a $2.4 million shortfall.
Andy Haggard, an FSU trustee, mouthed off to Warchant.com. He complained that the ACC surrendered its third-their television rights to ESPN for football but not basketball, seeming evidence that the conference was favoring the North Carolina-based schools for basketball reasons.
There was a problem with that statement: It wasn’t true. The school had to issue an apology Saturday night. This goes back to my theory that many members of a school’s Board of Trustees are little more than more than big-money boosters who get to go to meetings and, it follows, talk too much.
Seminoles coach Jimbo Fisher also said, “…I think you always have to look out there to see what’s best for Florida State. If that [jumping to the Big 12] is what’s best for Florida State, then that’s what we need to do.”
This from a coach who last season finished behind Clemson and Wake Forest. I’m not sure what Fisher believes the Florida State brand is worth right now, but I doubt the school can do better than what it has right now. Leverage comes with winning something.
By Jeff Schultz
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454 comments Add your comment
William Satterwhite
May 14th, 2012
5:01 pm
“If it were only $2-3M I would be in agreement with you. But, the Big 12 contract with FSU in it will likely be $5 – 8M more than the ACC. On top of that FSU would retain Tier 3 rights, which could easily be over $10M per year. That could be $30 – $35M combined. With the current whacky conference alignment of the ACC travel expenses wouldn’t be much more in the Big 12, especially if GT, UM, and Clemson were to follow”
1st, FSU’s cut out of the Big 12 would not be 5 to 8 million than their cut out the ACC’s deal- one thing people are not accounting for is that the Big 12’s per school pay out is only projected to be higher because the conference only has 10 schools right now. In order to project that kind of benefit you have to determine just how much additional value the addition of Florida St and one other school would provide.
2nd, Tier 3 rights at best only account for 1 football game, women’s basketball and Olympic sports- no one school outside of Texas can command that kind of money for Tier 3 media rights- there is a reason why they are Tier 3 to begin with. The Big 10 and Pac 12 (and the SEC down the line) understand this perfectly, outside of the unique case of Texas those Tier 3 rights provide the most value when bundled together with all the conference schools in order to create a package that has value outside of an individual school’s home state.
William Satterwhite
May 14th, 2012
5:05 pm
“It’s “another think coming”, William.”
Either way, it won’t be pretty.
Kevin
May 14th, 2012
5:06 pm
Carl,
Seems to me that Arkansas was a top 10 team last yr?? Bama played them. I’m sure of that. Read the link from the article, bowden decided to go ACC, he changed his mind.
Tod
May 14th, 2012
5:06 pm
I guess George has trouble admitting a statement he made earlier was WRONG. Now the discussion is over.
Joey
May 14th, 2012
5:07 pm
Wow, Beast from the East, I never knew you could actually debate an opponent’s fan – you usually just lob a few insults (yeah, the same ones everytime). Guess you get a little more passionate about FSU.
George Stein makes the best points of this debate, though. And yes, George, the SEC invited FSU before SC.
It is a fact, and also a fact that Bowden himself vetoed it.
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
5:11 pm
UF wins all 3 All Sports Trophies in the SEC….again!
Now, if we can just get the football program back to the levels we’ve become accustomed to over the past 20 years, then life will be good!
Tod
May 14th, 2012
5:12 pm
Someone needs to show me proof the SEC invited FSU either offically or unofficially because it NEVER happened. Just because you say it did doesn’t make it true. Yes they were recruited but never invited.
Mike
May 14th, 2012
5:13 pm
Beast, ok I won’t quibble over the meaning of “owning,” but suffice it to say that FSU has been the victor more often than not over the past 25 years. As for years when BOTH teams were ranked, FSU leads 10-7-1. Still a hard pill to swallow for die-hard Gator fans.
PS–The lone tie is the famous Choke at Doak in 94.
Mike
May 14th, 2012
5:13 pm
Like it or not, FSU is a catch. They are still a big name program. Moving to the Big 12 might be the shot in the arm they need. It will open up Texas recruiting and ditch the stigma that has become the ACC. Face it, the ACC gets no respect. They would likely be in the SEC except UF would never allow it. UF hangs that SEC banner over all other schools in the state. Big 12 certainly looks better than ACC. The real question is, would they want to joing the Big 12 with Texas and OU getting the highest revenue share?
Mike S.
May 14th, 2012
5:14 pm
need to qualify the name here haha:
Like it or not, FSU is a catch. They are still a big name program. Moving to the Big 12 might be the shot in the arm they need. It will open up Texas recruiting and ditch the stigma that has become the ACC. Face it, the ACC gets no respect. They would likely be in the SEC except UF would never allow it. UF hangs that SEC banner over all other schools in the state. Big 12 certainly looks better than ACC. The real question is, would they want to joing the Big 12 with Texas and OU getting the highest revenue share?
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
5:15 pm
“Guess you get a little more passionate about FSU.”
Joey,
Kind of like UGA and GT. UF’s in-state rival that has become quite the hated little brother over the years. We can thank Bowden for that, as the Semis weren’t much of anything before he arrived. Gotta give him props for building a top program from absolutely nothing.
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
5:18 pm
“UF hangs that SEC banner over all other schools in the state.”
And what is wrong with that? If the shoe was on the other foot, then FSU wouldn’t do the same thing?
Vulture
May 14th, 2012
5:18 pm
“That left Florida State, Miami and South Carolina vying for the second invitation. Florida State was clearly the SEC’s first choice. The major roadblock was scheduling. On August 3, Bobby Bowden admitted to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, “I like to win games, and I can’t think of a tougher place to do that than the SEC.” Under the proposed division alignment, Florida State would face Florida, Auburn and Alabama every year, which raised objections from FSU Athletic Director Bob Goin. “Most conferences have got two really strong programs,” Bowden continued, “but top to bottom there isn’t one close to the SEC.” Another report, by Mark Maske of the Washington Post, suggested Florida State refused to be in the same conference as Florida because the Gators “once fostered an SEC blackballing of the Seminoles.” In 2001, a Florida Times-Union retrospective quoted a FSU booster as saying, “There was quite a bit of feeling that we didn’t want to be entrapped; a feeling that among some fans that if we go into [the SEC]…we’d be kind of a stepchild.”
Tod
May 14th, 2012
5:19 pm
And the Gators were never anything in SEC football for decades until they hired Charlie Pell after he got busted at Clemson.
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
5:25 pm
Tod,
That’s fairly true. We (UF) emjoyed some big wins from time to time, but never any championships. Everyone points to SOS for UF’s success, but Pell brought in the athletes to compete with anyone. Unfortunatley, he liked to break the rules a little too much.
GTBob
May 14th, 2012
5:25 pm
The real question is, would they want to joing the Big 12 with Texas and OU getting the highest revenue share?
Revenue sharing is equal in the Big 12 now.
Bob
May 14th, 2012
5:25 pm
Any Gator care to comment about UF dropping Miami (FL) as an annual rivalry back in the 80’s? Still one of the most cowardly acts I’ve seen from a major college program. The excuse was the typical “our schedule doesn’t permit” line of BS. Of course, they found time to schedule high school teams, and in the greatest of ironies, even found time to schedule Miami (OH) a few years ago.
Dan
May 14th, 2012
5:27 pm
@Carl, you may be right. From what I’ve read, Tier 3 rights, that the school has, boils down to games like, FSU vs Elon, FSU vs. Savannah St. etc. etc. in football.
Same with hoops, the garbage games that no one else wants.
Again, I may be wrong, but, if that’s the case, I can’t see any 10m windfall coming.
Bob
May 14th, 2012
5:29 pm
Miami is the real King in the state of Florida. We were winning national championships before UF won the SEC. I admit we have a knack for dumb recruiting violations, but when we’re on, no one beats us. Not to mention, who in their right mind would prefer Gainesville/Tallahassee over South Beach?
Miami–5 rings
Florida–3 rings
FSU–2 rings
Dan
May 14th, 2012
5:29 pm
p.s. not taking a shot at FSU’s schedule, everyone has them! Just used those schools as an example.
Vulture
May 14th, 2012
5:30 pm
“2. Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share (and I say this as a former dean of the University of Texas at Austin – I watched the Big 12 disintegration with interest). So, when fans realize that Texas would get more dollars than FSU, always having a competitive advantage, it would be interesting to see the fan reaction.”
William Satterwhite
May 14th, 2012
5:31 pm
Here is a pretty thorough breakdown of what each level of media rights cover- http://dev.chuckoliver.net/2012/05/third-tier-rights-defined-perspective-on-their-value/
William Satterwhite
May 14th, 2012
5:31 pm
Here is a pretty thorough breakdown of what each level of media rights cover- http://dev.chuckoliver.net/2012/05/third-tier-rights-defined-perspective-on-their-value/
Dan
May 14th, 2012
5:31 pm
How come no one in the SEC ever talks about Ole Miss, Miss St., Vanderbilt, Kentucky or Tennessee??
Paddy
May 14th, 2012
5:32 pm
Mr. Football…..better fan base than UGA?????? They could not sell out their stadium this past year. FSU has a problem just recently with selling their product. They should get it corrected. Jimbo is a good coach but something not right now is missing with that program.
SEC (see everyone cheats)
May 14th, 2012
5:38 pm
@Beast from the East…you said 7 in a row over FSU..it was 6 dumbass..also have fun watching UF fall down to the gutter with Mushchump..it’s going to be fun watching you fall and UGA and FSU beating you arrogant lizards every year for a long time…
Delbert D.
May 14th, 2012
5:39 pm
Tell me again why FSU would benefit from joining the Big 2 and little chicks. That conference is vying with the Big East for self-immolation honors. The Big East would be more convenient for FSU in terms of travel. Wait…why not stay with the ACC?
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
5:39 pm
Bob,
Miami bought every one of those titles. Watch the ESPN special on The U. They will never return to their “glory days”. Too small of a fan base to ever have the facilities, support, etc that it takes to sustain a championship level program. They will always be competeitive just because of the fertile recruiting grounds, but they now have to compete with FAU, FIU and USF for those recruits that just fell in their lap in the 80’s. Let me know when they scrape up enough money to build their own stadium.
Dan
May 14th, 2012
5:39 pm
@Vulture, excellent. Only a few of the words from the statement released by FSU president.
FSU, you’re not going anywhere.
GTBob
May 14th, 2012
5:41 pm
They could not sell out their stadium this past year. FSU has a problem just recently with selling their product.
Yep. They only sold out two games last year. Not playing any teams within 850 miles is going to hurt that even more.
Tod
May 14th, 2012
5:42 pm
criticism of FSU’s schedule is pretty baseless when you look at who we have scheduled out of conference over the years. #1 We didn’t drop Miami probably costing us at least 3 national titles. Oklahoma home and home 2010/2011. 7 games vs LSU the 1st 6 at LSU the last a home game they cancelled, ND, OSU, USC, Pitt (when they had Marino and Dorsett), Nebraska, etc…. I could go on. Yes our 1st game is usually a warm up but so are most ranked teams.
Vulture
May 14th, 2012
5:43 pm
“Four days after spurning Florida State, Kramer met with Miami, one of the two remaining expansion candidates. South Carolina’s trustees had preemptively voted to accept an SEC invitation should one come. Miami was decidedly less enthused. Unlike the mostly public universities in the SEC, Miami was a private school that drew its student body in large numbers from the same geographic area as the Big East. Miami officials were also more interested in using Big East membership to improve its fledgling basketball program.”
Delbert D.
May 14th, 2012
5:46 pm
Chadd Scott, very smart guy. Andy Haggard, not as smart as Merle.
Dan
May 14th, 2012
5:49 pm
Tod, not sure if you’re referring to me, or someone further up the post.
I went out of my way to say, those schools were just examples to show what tier 3 games are.
Yes, everyone has cupcakes, agree. FSU’s schedule is usually pretty good.
Ok, you got Duke and BC this year, well, weren’t they sold out in the 90’s even for crap
conference teams then?? Weren’t they sold out for even the cupcakes then???.
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
5:50 pm
SEC,
You’re correct, it was 6 in a row. I guess I lost track after that many consecutive wins. Keep wishing that UF won’t be back on top. Maybe you’ll actually believe it if you try hard enough.
Bob
May 14th, 2012
5:53 pm
Beast, no comment on UF dropping the Canes back in the 80’s? I can hear you now with that southern Gainesville drawl: “Momma, tell him to stop.”
Felix
May 14th, 2012
5:54 pm
FSU is an average football program in the ACC and, as far as their footballers go, below par academically.
Tod
May 14th, 2012
5:55 pm
Dan I wasn’t referring to you others seem to have the notion that FSU is scared to schedule quality opponents which is simply not true. If anything UF’s 1st two games every year are a joke and really hurt their strength of schedule. Every conference has their patsies inconference so unless the ACC and SEC patsies play each other we will never know who has the better 1-10 team lol
Felix
May 14th, 2012
5:55 pm
Didn’t Wake Forest go to Tallahassee a couple of years ago and blow them out?
SEC (see everyone cheats)
May 14th, 2012
5:58 pm
@Beast from the East..”Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt”..see you in Doak since you are so confident you will win..lol
Texas_Fighter
May 14th, 2012
5:59 pm
I’m a UT Alumnus. You are goddamn crazy if you think we bluebloods don’t consider FSU in our ranks. They at least match the prestige of Nebraska.
Delbert D.
May 14th, 2012
5:59 pm
Moronic idea. The SEC gladly accepted Texas A&M and Missouri in large part because they are AAU members (those academic prestige things matter very much to presidents.) The Big 12 accepted West Virginia, but even they drew the line on Louisville. Who is the better for it? The SEC by a long shot. FSU is a Space Grant university among other things, but that space aspect is dwindling with NASA’s budget. Why would FSU aspire to be among the Oklahoma States, Iowa States and Kansas States of the university world? Just doesn’t make sense.
Delbert D.
May 14th, 2012
6:04 pm
Expanding on my last post, the SEC now has four AAU members: Vanderbilt, Florida, Texas A&M and Missouri. I expect that Georgia will be invited in a few years, as the endowment now is about $750 million.
Bob
May 14th, 2012
6:07 pm
Texas_Fighter, you’d better like the Noles…it took one (Mack Brown) to get you a national championship a few years ago.
Jimbutt Fisher is a whacko
May 14th, 2012
6:18 pm
A big time program doesn’t have a $2.4 million shortfall….then again FSWho isn’t big time.
Them and Miami wimped out years ago by joining the ACC. And they can’t even rule that pansy conference.
Carl
May 14th, 2012
6:18 pm
Kevin,
You are right, Arkansas was a top 25 team. That is the only other team besides LSU that Bama played, which as I said they played them twice. They were 2-1 against top 25 teams. Incidentally, LSU was 5-1 against top 25 teams.
Carl
May 14th, 2012
6:20 pm
Tier 3 also includes re-runs of games. Long/short, there is a way to market everything together to make over $10M per year.
Vulture
May 14th, 2012
6:24 pm
“1. The information presented about the ACC contract that initiated the blogosphere discussion was not correct. The ACC is an equal share conference and this applies to football and to basketball — there is no preferential treatment of any university with the exception of 3rd tier rights for women’s basketball and Olympic sports. FSU is advantaged by that aspect of the contract over the majority of other ACC schools.”
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
6:25 pm
SEC,
I’ll be there. Win or lose it’s always Great to be a Florida Gator!
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
6:30 pm
Bob,
UF dropped “Da U” when the SEC expanded to 12 teams and went to an 8 game schedule. At the time, we were all still playing an 11 game schedule, so the decision was made to keep playing FSU and drop Miami. UF and UGA both have the problem of the annual game in Jax that leaves one less home game every other year. Why would UF lose a home game every other year to continue playing “Da U”? Do you have any idea how much money that would cost? I know you Canes miss that game because it was the only time you had a packed house (50% Gator fans), but I don’t miss that dump of a stadium that sits in the middle of “Da Hood”.