FSU to Big 12? School has inflated idea of self-worth
Jimbo Fisher and Florida State might think brand is worth more than it really is. (AP photo)
There is only one thing that throws me about this Florida State-to-the-Big-12 rumor that has been growing and mutating over the past several days: Do school officials consider themselves some kind of super power? Because I believe time machines are not applicable here.
In the last six years, Florida State has played in the Emerald Bowl, the Music City Bowl, the Champs Sports Bowl, the Gator Bowl, the Chick-fil-A Bowl and the Champs Sports Bowl again.
They have played in one BCS bowl (Orange) in the last eight seasons (and lost). They haven’t won any BCS bowl game since the national title 12 years ago.
They haven’t won the ACC since 2005. They have played in only one ACC championship game in the last six seasons.
Before a school starts making financial demands and threatening to change conferences, shouldn’t it at least have to win the ACC Atlantic Division more frequently than Boston College?
This, of course, is all about money. The problem is that Florida State is living in its super power past. It’s frustrated that the ACC is not the SEC. Every conference is frustrated that it’s not the SEC. But, sorry, when a conference wins six straight national championships, the result is not going to be a level playing field, least of all when it comes to television revenue.
The ACC and ESPN recently announced a 15-year, $3.6 billion contract. That averages out to $17.1 million per school per year, which certainly seems good. But the fact that the deal is back-loaded — it will take nine years before schools see a $17.1 million take – has some members grumbling, particularly Florida State, whose athletic department is facing a $2.4 million shortfall.
Andy Haggard, an FSU trustee, mouthed off to Warchant.com. He complained that the ACC surrendered its third-their television rights to ESPN for football but not basketball, seeming evidence that the conference was favoring the North Carolina-based schools for basketball reasons.
There was a problem with that statement: It wasn’t true. The school had to issue an apology Saturday night. This goes back to my theory that many members of a school’s Board of Trustees are little more than more than big-money boosters who get to go to meetings and, it follows, talk too much.
Seminoles coach Jimbo Fisher also said, “…I think you always have to look out there to see what’s best for Florida State. If that [jumping to the Big 12] is what’s best for Florida State, then that’s what we need to do.”
This from a coach who last season finished behind Clemson and Wake Forest. I’m not sure what Fisher believes the Florida State brand is worth right now, but I doubt the school can do better than what it has right now. Leverage comes with winning something.
By Jeff Schultz
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454 comments Add your comment
George Stein
May 14th, 2012
2:37 pm
Nothing – except for market demand – is stopping FSU from shopping their tier three television rights now.
The talk about the ratings is pretty funny considering the ACC had better ratings than the Big 12 last year.
UGA deamers
May 14th, 2012
2:38 pm
Yeah..because the SEC is such a great academic confernce(except maybe for Vandy). Don’t want to hear from you lame SEC fans about academics…..lol.
Assessing ESPN/ACC deal | Georgia Tech
May 14th, 2012
2:38 pm
[...] couple thoughts on the ACC’s new deal with ESPN, which has fed the FSU-to-the-Big 12 talk (as deftly blogged by Jeff [...]
George Stein
May 14th, 2012
2:39 pm
The tier three revenue is the only place where FSU would make enough money to offset the exit fee, Jesse B.
William Satterwhite
May 14th, 2012
2:39 pm
PiKappNole, do you remember how lightly regarded the Pac 10 was in the 90’s when USC went through a prolonged down swing prior to Pete Carroll coming on board? The fact is, outside of the SEC just due to the sheer number of historically relevant “name brand” programs, no major conference would be well regarded if it’s top brands endured decade long down spells. Part of the reason why an Oklahoma State or an Oregon can carry the banner for their leagues is because the real name brands (USC, Oklahoma and Texas) still maintained their relevance so rising above those schools means something- Oregon had a strong program and played in Rose Bowls in the 90s but no one cared because USC wasn’t relevant at the time so Oregon (along with Stanford and Washington St and whoever else) didn’t get any shine. THAT is the problem that Florida State (and Miami, they are even more to blame in my opinion) causes for the ACC- when you have one or two down years, it’s cute when a Wake Forest steps up and wins the league and nobody holds it against the league. When you have a down decade though, it damages the entire league because now the perception becomes that the league as a whole just sucks- nobody gets any credit for their successes now.
John Thompson
May 14th, 2012
2:42 pm
2nd, have you seen the Director’s Cup standings. This is an athletics decision. Inflated self worth? Number 1 baseball team in the country, 4 straight NCAA appearances in basketball. Cross country, track. Big time programs. We ran a 2.4 million dollar deficit last year. Frankly, they need more money to keep feeding the programs, and so we can continue to compete in more sports as we move forward.
For the amount of athletic programs we have, we sent the highest percentage of teams to post season in the country. HIGHEST.
Inflated self worth? Nah. These guys know with more revenue coming in, we can get a stronger output. Sorry if you can’t see that this decision is strictly financial.
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
2:42 pm
“Don’t want to hear from you lame SEC fans about academics”
I’m sure you don’t if you’re from FSU. They are at the bottom of the barrel in academics in the ACC. Would be the same way if they were in the SEC.
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
2:42 pm
“Don’t want to hear from you lame SEC fans about academics”
I’m sure you don’t if you’re from FSU. They are at the bottom of the barrel in academics in the ACC. Would be the same way if they were in the SEC.
ARX
May 14th, 2012
2:42 pm
What does FSU record have to do with leaving a conf that is one of the worse FOOTBALL conf in all of college football?? FSU is a Nat Brand and those bowl game you mention might not have been BCS bowls but they are some of the highest TV rated games played. FSU is a national brand even when mediocre, can you imagine if they get things turned around and become a national power again? If recent recruiting is correct thinks are look good
Grant Field
May 14th, 2012
2:44 pm
FSU fan has a point:
GT should be looking at our options too. When TV rights are being competitively bid up by ESPN, Fox, and CBS, the ACC was negotiating a long term, backend loaded, lockup agreement; instead of the smart business move, which is to maximize your bid price.
What if Fox was willing to overbid in a couple years to get their foot in the door? But now we have a long term contract with ESPN.
The problem is the $20m exit fee. If we could make $4m more per year in the B1G or B12, it is a 5 year payback to recover the exit fee.
The Truth
May 14th, 2012
2:46 pm
“Don’t want to hear from you lame SEC fans about academics”
I’m sure you don’t if you’re from FSU. They are at the bottom of the barrel in academics in the ACC. Would be the same way if they were in the SEC.
FSU would be be a good fit for the SEC. Academically, they would be about the middle. Put them in the East and they would probably dominate in football.
Jesse B.
May 14th, 2012
2:47 pm
The exit fee would be offset by a combination of revenue increases that the Big12 would bring. I’m not saying we could make enough money instantly to pay off the exit fee but we would be able to set up some sort of “transitional fund” like WV did to pay it off eventually using some of the increased revenue from the move. The Big12 would supply at least half, like the agreed to do for WV.
Semenole
May 14th, 2012
2:48 pm
Jeff– You guys ever use Freedom of Information or whatever it is to check out the records from Georgia Tech and Georgia’s athletic board meetings. There’s got to be some fun stuff those minutes every so often.
Steve
May 14th, 2012
2:48 pm
Mission Accomplished on the trolling op-ed piece, Schultz. You’ve caught a lot of bites with this one.
On the subject at hand, it’s not a “self worth” issue for FSU. The real issue is that the ACC has made the decision to become a basketball conference (even more than before) by adding Syracuse and Pitt. There are rumors that Rutgers and UConn are also going to join, which would eradicate the Big East and essentially make the ACC the unquestioned leader in basketball — and even more of a doormat in football.
That’s fine if your school is in North Carolina, but it doesn’t really work if your school isn’t. The current ACC football schools (Clemson, FSU, Miami, VT) are going to suffer from the new television deal, especially considering that their SEC and Big 12 counterparts are going to be making $5-10Million more per season in television revenue.
Now is the time for the football schools to leave the ACC. If John Swofford and company did not see this coming, their baby-blue blinders are wider than I expected.
George Stein
May 14th, 2012
2:49 pm
What makes you think the Big 12 would do that twice, Jesse?
I’m not trying to be difficult, but why are so many FSU folks so ready to jump? I mean, last week everything was fine. Then some poorly informed trustee spouts off and y’all are ready to bolt? It makes no sense.
Vulture
May 14th, 2012
2:52 pm
“We ran a 2.4 million dollar deficit last year.”
Sounds like changes need to be made in more departments than just athletics.
Central GA Dawg
May 14th, 2012
2:54 pm
Sour grapes….The Criminoles had a chance to join the big boys 20 years ago. When the SEC announced that they were going to expand to 12 teams, they extended invitations to 2 schools, Arkansas and FSU. Florida State wimped out and said “no thank you”. Therefore, the War Chickens joined the SEC…I find all of this very amusing that they are wanting to jump to a different conference now, when they can’t even dominate the pitiful Atlantic Coast Cupcakes anymore!
Jesse B.
May 14th, 2012
2:56 pm
I think the Big12 would be willing to pay more than half, to be honest. Call it a inflated sense of self worth but I think FSU would bring a lot to the Big 12…national brand, florida recruiting, higher tv ratings, etc.
To be honest with you, FSU fans have been sick of the ACC for years. Obviously we are angry at everyone and everything for how far we’ve fallen since 2000 (our own fault, 100%) but this conference has been ticking us off for years. Now that we actually have something to be mad at (TV contract, budget deficit) we are itching to jump. Last year a lot of us were praying for an invite from the SEC (which we still want but know UF would never let us get) so we’ve wanted out for a while now.
It just seems that this talk has gone so far that if we keep beating the drum we may be able to force it like Misso and aTm did last year.
I appreciate the perspective, actually. I’ve been in favor of jumping to the SEC for a long time and only recently considered the Big12. At this point, the Big12 isnt as good as the SEC but its damn sure better than the ACC.
Cody
May 14th, 2012
2:57 pm
You have to admit Central GA Dwag that they would dominate your pitiful butts in the SEC East.
GTBob
May 14th, 2012
2:59 pm
FSU fans seem very ready to do the following for a potential extra 4-5 million per year:
- End their yearly game with Miami, probably only play one game a year against a team anywhere close to them.
- Give up alot of their southeastern TV coverage outside of Florida. Which will hurt recruiting.
- Pay the ACC 20 million with possible help from the Big 12
- Make their closest away game over 850 miles away
- Move to a conference that was about a day away from destruction less then a year ago.
- Go from being the top football school in a conference to third best football school in a conference.
If that’s what they want, then more power to them. Have a good time.
Carl
May 14th, 2012
3:00 pm
Schultz,
Is FSU’s of its value inflated if the Big 12 is more than happy to pay it $23M – $25M after it renegotiates it TV rights, and retain its Tier 3 rights in all sports?
Let’s put it another way – If FSU joins the Big 12, and the ACC’s 15-year contract goes from $3.6B (okay we will over inflate the ACC’s value) to say it would be as high as $3B over those same 15 years, then what is FSU’s value? ($600M / 15 yrs = $40M per year).
Honestly, do you really think the ACC would get $3B over 15 years without FSU?
Gary
May 14th, 2012
3:01 pm
Leave it to sports “insiders” to create a tempest in a teapot. I live right here in Tallahassee and work for FSU and this talk about jumping to the Big 12 is just that “talk”. No one here seriously believes the FSU will leave the ACC or even wants to. Its merely a negotiating balloon sent to ACC officials to let them know that FSU just wants to be treated fairly. You may have noticed that FSU does have a quality basketball program too and beat all of those Carolina basketball teams at least once in 2012 so they are not “just” a football school any more.
Dawg Haus
May 14th, 2012
3:02 pm
That’s a good way of looking at it, Jesse B. As a Georgia fan, I’d love to see the Noles in the SEC. I wish it would happen.
Tech82
May 14th, 2012
3:03 pm
Jesse – If FSU is the football powerhouse that their delusional fans think it is, why aren’t they dominating the ACC? For that matter, why aren’t they dominating their division in the ACC? If they are $2 million in the red how will they afford the $20 million buyout to leave the ACC (or $10 million if the Big 12 pays half as you suggest)?
If FSU and Miami were even HALF the football programs the ACC hoped they would be when they joined the conference, we wouldn’t be having this discussion because the ACC would have signed a much more lucrative TV deal.
George Stein
May 14th, 2012
3:03 pm
The Big 12 was about to implode 8 months ago. Again, I’m stunned that FSU folks think this way.
As for paying the buyout, you’re forgetting the dynamics of WVU’s entry to the Big 12. The Big 12 needed them, so it worked. The Big 12 doesn’t need FSU.
Let’s just say y’all bolt. The Big 12 television deal is worth about $2M more per year than the ACC’s. That gets FSU’s athletic department back to even. Good luck finding the money to get out of the ACC. Your own president admitted as much about 20 minutes ago.
Here's the Beef
May 14th, 2012
3:04 pm
Last line in this snipit from the blog sez it all……this is the only reason they are grumbling @ FSU. “But the fact that the deal is back-loaded — it will take nine years before schools see a $17.1 million take – has some members grumbling, particularly Florida State, whose athletic department is facing a $2.4 million shortfall”
Carl
May 14th, 2012
3:04 pm
BTW: I am all for Clemson, GT, and Miami joining FSU in the Big 12. It is a travesty that FSU and GT were not put in the same division by the ACC.
Chris
May 14th, 2012
3:06 pm
FSU gettin beat right now over at Clemson is baseball 9-1 and lost Friday 7-2. They supposed to be #1 in baseball, but I guess Clemson aint chopped liver in baseball. Oh well, back to your discussion.
msd
May 14th, 2012
3:08 pm
FSU had their opportunity to be in the SEC and Bowden chickened out – did not want to have to play in a real conference with the big boys, so they went where they could be the bully and kick somome sand. Now they are complaining that no one else plays football in their chosen conference and they should get paid more. The funniest part is that they can’t even win their weak conference. You reap what you sow…..
William Satterwhite
May 14th, 2012
3:08 pm
“make the ACC the unquestioned leader in basketball — and even more of a doormat in football.”
“The current ACC football schools (Clemson, FSU, Miami, VT)”
Again, it’s not the ACC’s fault that the perception is that the league is only getting stronger in basketball and not in football when 3 out of the 4 “football” schools have been less than stellar since the conference first expanded. If that foursome were producing two top 10 teams every season none of this would even be a topic of conversation. If any fans of the 3 non-Virginia Tech “football” schools are upset that the ACC has become even more of a basketball league at the expense of football, they need to take a good long look in the mirror.
Joe
May 14th, 2012
3:09 pm
In 20 years of being in the ACC not a single other ACC school has ever played for the National Title, nor had a Heisman Winner. You want to know what FSU is worth, go to a GT game when FSU comes to town and look around… then go to a GT game when they are hosting dook, maryland, nc state, bc, virginia, or even miami… You take away FSU and the ACC hasn’t played for a National Title or had a Heisman Winner in 20 years. With FSU they’ve got 2 of each. The ACC is almost Conference USA without FSU, take away Clemson it is on par with the sun belt…. FSU is the ACC, even in basketball!!!
Always a Jacket
May 14th, 2012
3:14 pm
Jeff hit the nail on the head. The ACC invited FSU and the U to beef up the ACC football resume and we see where that got the ACC. The ACC needs one or two great programs in the BCS mix each year. FSU and the U were to be those teams. Neither program has produced. Clemson, VT, then GT and UNC have been doing as well or better.
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
3:15 pm
Joe,
You had me with you until your last sentence. Delusion at it’s finest!
GTBob
May 14th, 2012
3:15 pm
I just realized that FSU is 2-4 in their last six games against Wake Forest. Then they wonder why we don’t get paid as much as other conferences.
DelusiNoles
May 14th, 2012
3:16 pm
FSU fans have always been and still are some of the most delusional you’ll find anywhere. Get into a discussion with them and you’ll discover how inferior they feel and the amount of effort they give to “one-upping” even resorting to trying to convert moral victories into real ones. Their academics are no where close to what their neighbors in Gainesville’s are as an institution of higher learning but they’ll trash talk the SEC academics and UF’s as if they were Harvard. Their Athletic program as a whole can’t hold a candle to UF’s and what UF’s Athletic Department has accomplished in the last 25 years but they will tell you about a win against the Gators in baseball from 5 years ago or winning the ACC BBall tourney but not making the second rd of the Big Dance as some sort of proof their Athletic Program is better than UF’s. They are actually very entertaining to talk to if you really want to laugh about someone behind their back afterward.
Central GA Dawg
May 14th, 2012
3:17 pm
Really, Cody? So, you think that the Criminoles would dominate the SEC East, huh? FSU can’t even win their division in a much weaker conference. How old are you, scooter? Just learning about the game played with the oblong ball, huh?
GT
May 14th, 2012
3:18 pm
Maybe they are trying to get out of playing Miami who is loading up for the next few years. I see Miami as a top 10 teams in two years if not sooner.
George Stein
May 14th, 2012
3:20 pm
The ACC is almost Conference USA without FSU, take away Clemson it is on par with the sun belt
This makes me wonder why FSU hasn’t won the conference in seven years.
GT
May 14th, 2012
3:21 pm
Central GA Dawg is right, I don’t even make those kinds of comments, Lord!
Tech82
May 14th, 2012
3:23 pm
Joe @3:09 wrote: “The ACC is almost Conference USA without FSU, take away Clemson it is on par with the sun belt…. FSU is the ACC, even in basketball!!!”
Joe – If FSU is that much better than the rest of the conference, why have they had so much trouble even making to the conference championship game – much less winning the conference. FSU was once a stellar program. That was in the past. They may rise again under Jimbo Fisher – we’ll see. But until then, FSU is mired in the mediocrity of the ACC.
UGA dreamers
May 14th, 2012
3:23 pm
Best from the east…go back to you lame SEC. Bunch of rednecks and dumb ass good ole boys.
Jacket Man
May 14th, 2012
3:25 pm
Jeff, you forgot to add that the Big 12 recently lost Texas A&M and Missouri to the SEC, Nebraska to the Big 10, and Colorado to the Pac 10, so FSU would be nothing more than table scraps (like West Virginia) to them if they decided to bolt. If that Conference was such a “catch,” why would so many rats be jumping ship?
Beast from the East
May 14th, 2012
3:27 pm
UGA dreamers,
First of all, I’m a Gator…not a Dawg. Secondly, why not try and refute anything I’ve said about the Clown College’s jump to the ACC? You can’t can you?
Hey, we could loan you the $2.4 million to make up your budget shortfall, but we’d need more collateral than that erector set you call a football stadium. Not sure if it’s worth that amount!
Vulture
May 14th, 2012
3:29 pm
UGA dreamers
May 14th, 2012
3:23 pm
Best from the east…go back to you lame SEC. Bunch of rednecks and dumb ass good ole boys.
One ten win season since 2003 and UGA fans are dreamers?
Billy Ray Valentine......Capricorn
May 14th, 2012
3:30 pm
Some food for thought to the FSU academic detractors out there: FSU ranked #46 in the most recent US News ranking of public schools, compared with UF and UGA in the high teens and low 20’s. Schools in our ranking neighborhood included Miami U in Ohio, NC State, Mizzou, and Nebraska. That’s not terrible company to keep. FSU is not Harvard, nor is it GA Southern.
From 2005-09, three FSU students were awarded Rhodes Scholarships. No other public University could make that claim. FSU had a 2011 Rhodes finalist fall just short in the final round.
Bottom line, FSU’s academics have improved dramatically over the last 20 years (no way would I be admitted today), and anyone who denies that is as delusional as you claim FSU fans are about our football prowess.
As to the value of our brand, and the underpayment the ACC contract delivers, look at who gets the most views on TV for bowl games, regular season games, etc. It is FSU, regardless of our recent relative weakness in football. We have not been great during our lost decade, but most alumni think we’re headed in the right football direction. But, Jeff and Gator fans, never let facts stand in the way of a good story.
FSUBrave
May 14th, 2012
3:36 pm
schultz has some valid points, but we are certainly not inferior to UF..we need to start winning the conf a regular basis again….there is no reason we shouildn’t win the ACC 4 out of 5 years with the talent we have coming in now…no excuses…it is time to get it done on the grid iron
Eldrick
May 14th, 2012
3:36 pm
Georgia Tech is by far the worst football team in the ACC.
david
May 14th, 2012
3:37 pm
has inflated idea of self-worth = Jeff Schultz
SEC (see everyone cheats)
May 14th, 2012
3:37 pm
@Hey Beast..guess those last 2 years losses really sting don’t they??!! silly Gaytor..should have know.
GTBob
May 14th, 2012
3:38 pm
Georgia Tech is by far the worst football team in the ACC.
Well that is some insightful commentary.