Braves’ progress won’t matter until they can beat Phillies
Michael Bourn was doubled off first to end the Braves' loss to Philadelphia. (Jason Getz/AJC)
Once the confetti finally settled in the aftermath of the Braves’ four-hour, 11-inning, 28-run, 36-hit, is-that-really-Tim-Hudson-grabbing-a-bat marathon win over Philadelphia the night before, the Braves were left with one painful truth Thursday: The Phillies still own them.
This doesn’t mean the Braves won’t reach the postseason this year. It doesn’t even mean they can’t win the National League East Division. But Philadelphia didn’t leave town without reaffirming the pecking order.
We may see a blur of replays of Chipper Jones’ walk-off two-run blast that ended Game 2 of the series. We may remember the pyrotechnics of Wednesday’s 15-13 victory for several years. But it was the Phillies who bounced back to win Thursday’s game 4-0. That wrapped up yet another series win over the Braves — and ultimately, that’s really the big picture.
“Somebody said at the beginning of the series that this is a rivalry,” Jones said after the loss Thursday. “It’s not a rivalry until we beat them and beat them consistently, and we go back and forth — you know, we win the division one year, they win it the next. That’s not the case. They’re clearly on top. We’ve got a ways to go. Can we play with them? Yeah. Can we beat them? Yeah. We just have to go out and do it consistently.”
The Braves logically view Philadelphia as the team to beat in the East. Washington’s in first place? Yeah. That’s cute. Over the past five seasons, the Phillies have won five division titles, two pennants and a World Series. The Nationals have won bupkis.
The worst thing from the Braves’ standpoint is that no matter how strong they may think they are, there’s only one team that consistently buries them.
The Phillies had won eight consecutive meetings until Wednesday night’s marathon, so it’s now nine of 10. They have won nine of the past 13 series against the Braves. Since 2008, Philly’s record against Atlanta is 46-29. Over the past seven years, the Phillies have won five season series, the Braves (2009) won with one split (2007).
Not a rivalry.
Let’s not forgot the inglorious ending to last season. It was the Phillies who whacked the Braves on the head with a shovel and pushed them in the hole. They came to Turner Field at the end of September with the East already clinched and nothing to gain but the pleasure of tormenting Atlanta. So they did. They won Game 1 4-2; Game 2 7-1; and Game 3 4-3 in 13 innings. The Braves then sat slumped in their chair, looking at the television and watching St. Louis defeat Houston 8-0 to win the wild card.
These are not scars that will easily heal.
The Phillies are only a .500 team (13-13) through 26 games. Do the Braves view that as significant? No.
“Washington is good, the Mets are good, but until you knock the team off that won it the year before, and the year before that, it doesn’t matter what kind of start they got off to,” catcher David Ross said. “Until we beat them, they’re the team that holds the crown.”
On Thursday, the Braves received a great start from Randall Delgado (eight innings, two runs). But it didn’t matter because the day after making the Phillies’ pitching staff scream, “Uncle” with 15 runs and 19 hits, they made Joe Blanton look like Grover Cleveland Alexander (zero runs, three hits, all singles). The game lasted only two hours, two minutes.
The Braves looked tired and play tired. Didn’t the Phillies have the same turnaround as the Braves?
“Their catcher [Brian Schneider] told me their bus [departure] time from the stadium last night was 12:10 [a.m.],” Ross said. “The first pitch [Thursday] was 12:10, so the game was exactly 12 hours later.”
One team clearly responded better.
Ross again: “This is one hump we have to get over.”
Until the Braves get over the hump of Philadelphia, little else will matter. Because as great as Wednesday’s victory was, what matters most is that the Phillies came to town and won twice.
By Jeff Schultz
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135 comments Add your comment
longtimefan
May 4th, 2012
6:17 am
As predicted, let us lose one series(to Phillies no less) and the negative comments start. UGA Proud, it sounds like you WANT the Braves to lose. The hitting has clearly exceeded expectation, leading the NL in runs scored. Cut the young pitchers a little slack. Most are only in second or third full year; it takes time for a pitcher to mature and be consistent.
Scott Brantley
May 4th, 2012
6:55 am
Losing series in division is flat-out unacceptable!
DetroitBraves
May 4th, 2012
7:08 am
I don’t like Fredi Gonzalez much, as Jeff S. certainly knows, but it’s not unusual to sit your starting catcher in a day game following a night game, nor it is unusual to sit your 40-year-old third baseman with bad knees. Personally, I appreciate Fredi seeing the broader picture in this case. It’s something he did not do last year so much when he extended the young relievers early on. I would like them to have won the game but don’t have much complaint with Fredi’s decisions in this case.
MitchC
May 4th, 2012
7:48 am
Jeff, even before the infamy of what happened at the end of last year, I dont think anyone expected the Braves to win the East.
Bottom line: The Phillies are better, talent wise than us. We dont have Roy Halliday, or Cole Hamels. In the years that we won fourteen straight division titles, we always had guys like Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, and John Smoltz. Guys like that are the reason teams win divisions.
A realistic goal for the Braves would be the wild card. With out team, we should certainly be able to get that. however, after what happened at the end of last season, the fact that some of our key players are old, and the fact that Chipper, even though this is his last year, is always injury prone, we can take nothing for granted.
My hope for the 2012 Braves is 90 odd plus wins, and the wild card. Anything else would be gravy, in my view, and, while I wouldnt expect it to happen, as we know, with the Marlins two WS wins, when teams get into postseason, anything can happen. Do you think the Mralins will give back their two World Series banners, just because they gained entry as the wild card. They earned the banners, once they got there.
trademark
May 4th, 2012
7:52 am
I agree Mr. Schultz. That is all.
SimpleDawg
May 4th, 2012
8:02 am
That was the shortest @#^%!&+ MLB game I’ve ever attended. The hometown nine had nothing for Blanton. Nothing.
As Mammy said, “Just mules in horse clothing.”
NORRIS CHUCK
May 4th, 2012
8:04 am
Bottom line,
The Phillies are better than the Braves….even without Utley and Howard, their lineup from top to bottom is better period.
They have guys that hack and make contact with pitches, making pitchers work for a complete inning. Sooner or later a guys going to make that fat pitch and they make them pay.
And as for the Braves pitching, that staff is and has been overrated for some time now.
Blackberry Cobbler
May 4th, 2012
8:12 am
The Phils took 2 out of 3 without their best players.
Nuff said.
Another thing, it doesn’t help much when you have Chipper and McCann both sitting out of the lineup at the same time. That’s some real manager skills there Freddi.
DetroitBraves
May 4th, 2012
8:25 am
We’ll have to wait and see what versions of Utley and Howard the Phillies get when and if they make it back. But as of this moment, the Braves have both a better record and, more importantly, a better run differential than the Phillies. Yes, small samples and all but at least a larger sample than 3 games. Admittedly, it’s frustrating to lose to a banged-up Phillies team (remember, Cliff Lee is on the DL as well) but I’m not sure the sky is falling just yet.
Atticus
May 4th, 2012
8:35 am
Fredi sucks. Same BS. You don’t rest your two best hitters on the same freaking day! Mac is young he can do a night/day back to back. My gosh its a joke how this guy manages. No sense of urgency. You just won a huge game….take the momentum and at least keep your most consistent hitter in the lineup, you can rest him the first game is Colorado. They were lifeless at the plate. It really makes me sick. I am a native Atlantan and love the Braves but its hard to root for a team that is managed by a hat tipper. And if I have to listen to Chip Caray much longer……he says it must’ve been the late night before that cause our bats to sleep. Considering we played two different players and the Phillies didn’t seem to be affected…..please get a better announcer than that guy.
Call It Like It Is
May 4th, 2012
8:35 am
If your a Braves fan, fine go enjoy the games and root your team on. However these guys are average at best and will choke at the end of the year as they do every year. Just the way it is.
Blackberry Cobbler
May 4th, 2012
8:36 am
As usual, Detriot Brave, the problem is the Braves organization never ever sees the sky falling until the crap hits them in the eye.
furmanuga
May 4th, 2012
8:58 am
You guys have a pro baseball team that has consistently been a challenger for the postseason for over 20 years and you bash the team like this. Go root for Philly or some other front runner team and just stop commenting on the Braves. As always, they will give us a season where they are competitive and will be in the thick of things throughout the season. How many other franchises can say they’ve done that for this long a period of time. Atlanta fans are the absolute worst!
ajc sports fan
May 4th, 2012
9:06 am
Good job Jeff..I agree! Braves just not on Phillies level yet.
Highlands
May 4th, 2012
9:23 am
The Phillies have the second-highest payroll in MLB (174 million) and are almost 60M ahead of the second-highest NL team. It is difficult to compete with the economics of the game (Billy Beane and the A’s haven’t done much lately, have they?). That being said, let’s admit that these were bad losses and that the Braves have no excuse for that BS “hangover” loss. One win on a Wednesday night is NOT the World Series, gentleman: start showing up to work EVERY DAY.
meh
May 4th, 2012
9:28 am
so what you’re sayin Schultzy is that when the Phils starting spending and Braves quit spending the Phils started wolly bopping the snot outta the Braves.
bvilebaron
May 4th, 2012
9:28 am
1991 Braves:
I realize that the bottom line is that the Braves lost 2 out of 3 to the Phillies and 9 out of the last 10 dating back to last year. However, you and I must have watched a different series the last 3 days if you feel the Phillies “dominated” the Braves. The lost the first game 4-2 and the last game 4-0 (with 2 runs tacked on in the 9th). Either of those games could have gone either way. Oh and last i checked the Braves were still ahead of the Phillies in the standings. Still a long way to go folks.
Spanky Tillman
May 4th, 2012
9:41 am
Joe Blanton the Phillies 5th starter made the Braves offense look anemic. No excuse for not scoring one damn run in a 9 inning game. Same old loser Braves looking up to their daddy Phillies who own them…
Spanky Tillman
May 4th, 2012
9:43 am
Chipper got a day off today why did he need a day off yesterday ?
Sonny Jackson
May 4th, 2012
9:44 am
Oh no, the Braves lost a couple of games… fire everyone, even the ushers!!
You people crack me up… it must be incredible to work with perfect people like you.
Braves fan since '66
May 4th, 2012
9:58 am
JS – I agree with you 100% about the Braves appearing tired. As I watched the game, I had the distinct feeling that they just wanted to get past the early afternoon game as soon as possible and get out of town, with or without a win. They made Blanton look like Greg Maddux, by swinging repeatedly at pitches early in the count and not making him work. He only threw 88 pitches in 9 innings, which I would bet is a personal best for him, and he also appeared to be aided by an ump with a more than generous strike zone. No excuses though — the Bravos made him look much better than he really is. Very disappointing as they failed to compete in a game that would have set the tone for the rest of the season series and meant a two-game swing in the early season standings. Games like this will come back to haunt them later in the season. Home field advantage??? Hardly, with a 3-4 homestand. At this point, I’d rather see them away from Turner Field….
Brave Hokie
May 4th, 2012
10:20 am
It is easy: the Phillies have ‘male’ genitala, forthemostpart, the Braves do not… {period}
coach13
May 4th, 2012
10:35 am
The Braves are unfortuantely getting a taste of their own medicine. THey dominated the 90’s with starting pitching, and even more so when they had 3 future HOF as their 1,2, and 3. THe Braves are a better club top to bottom but if they can’t get past Halladay, Hamels, and Lee (Blanton is a #2 on almost every other club) it won’t matter.
THere is becoming a little bit of the Fla/UGA psyche going on too. It’s getting to be more in their heads than the talent on the field.
Tweeters & Woofers
May 4th, 2012
10:36 am
Phillies better than Braves and they are missing their 2 best hitters Utley & Howard. Wait, that’s right the Braves wanted to make it fair yeseterday and sat Chipper & McCann (their 2 best hitters)… Can we get a manager ? Hello ?
Tweeters & Woofers
May 4th, 2012
10:38 am
Yeseterday is Southern for yesterday.
Tweeters & Woofers
May 4th, 2012
10:39 am
Chipper & McCann at 40% is better than Francisco & Ross at 100 %….
Dumb Dawgs
May 4th, 2012
10:42 am
The greatest closer in baseball history is done for the season.
Tweeters & Woofers
May 4th, 2012
10:43 am
Braves should act like they’ve been there. If they went out and got smashed drinking because they barely won a slugfest then they deserve to be the 4th best. Grow up.
Tweeters & Woofers
May 4th, 2012
10:44 am
Dennis Eckersley got hurt ? Or was it Trevor Hoffman ?
Don
May 4th, 2012
10:47 am
ignore it — Ignore It – IGNORE IT:
pretend – Pretend – PRETEND.
Why do the Braves and the WRITERS – IGNORE their MOST SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM – PRETEND that it does NOT EXIST.
Everyone in baseball knows that Pitching is the “Name Of The Game” – the most significant and determining factor in winning.
Yet the fact that in the 6 or 7 years since Leo left as Pitching Coach — of all the large number of different Starting Pitchers the Braves have had – almost ALL OF THEM (who have been in the rotation for any length of time) have ended up being INJURED.
Just this season, we have FOUR of the FIVE Starters from last year coming off injuries (counting Medlen who was a Starter when he was injured). Problem is that (unlike position players) injured Pitchers many times (perhaps most times) do NOT return to their former effectiveness.
True the Braves have a wealth of ADDITIONAL young Pitching talent – which with our existing Starters from last season – should have guaranted the Braves being competitive for years to come.
IS THIS SITUATION GOING TO BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE UNTIL ALL OF THIS IS DESTROYED???
WHY DO THE WRITTERS IGNORE THIS PROBLEM AND REFUSE TO ADDRESS IT???
Don
May 4th, 2012
10:51 am
Blanton threw only 88 pitches in nine innings. UNBELIEVABLE. This was not a star pitcher, this was Blanton. I thought we had a new hitting coach who was going to teach and demand a winning approach to hitting – This certainly does NOT INDICATE that.
DawgDad
May 4th, 2012
11:36 am
The Braves roster is populated with players who do SOMETHING well enough to entice Management to embrace them as a solution, overlooking (at least according to their rhetoric) the obvious glaring downsides.
Basstringerfish
May 4th, 2012
11:37 am
I didn’t even read the article. The headline was enough for me.
I like where we are and where we are going, but just like the Giants and Pirates back in the day, until you beat the guy on top of the hill, nothing else matters. We play them 15 more times…
Bill Dent
May 4th, 2012
11:54 am
The Braves simply “mailed in” the afternoon game . No other way to put it.They get efforts like the 15 to 13 game with comebacks maybe twice a season. The rest of the time I know that if they are three runs back in the sixth inning I can go to bed early. Check it out. Most of the time watching this team is like watching grass grow.
Tip Your Cap
May 4th, 2012
11:56 am
Bob Dawg has it right. The problem can be summed up in one word: Money. As in payroll, which equals veterans and depth. There is a slim margin of error when you are competing with a team that has twice your payroll. Consider the salaries of the Braves starters. Take out Chipper and Uggla and what have you got for big dollar salaries? The Phillies can lose Lee, Howard and Utley for weeks at a time and still compete because they have the depth on the bench, or they go out and get it. The Braves will not compete at a high level on a regular basis until they get back to where they used to be in terms of relative salary numbers. And as for the revenue, if they invest and make a commitment, the fans will come. Right now, the fans are too jaded and skeptical of the results, which have become too predictable.
SR
May 4th, 2012
12:13 pm
Well said, well written Mr. Schultz.
Chris
May 4th, 2012
12:50 pm
DawgDad and other hit it right on the money. The TV minions and Chuck Turnoff act as if they’re covering a championship caliber team while splitting with the Pirates and losing a series against a struggling Philly team. Very mediocre…….no way around it.
Heisenberg
May 4th, 2012
2:03 pm
I am a bit concerned the past week against teams struggling offensively (Pitt/Philly) coming into the series, and they used Braves pitching to break out. It used to be Braves hitters making journeymen pitchers look like future HOFers. Now the pitching staff has shown they too can make mediocre offensive teams look like murderers row. Need to stop playing to the level of the competetion and bring the intensity every day. Sometimes I wonder if the Braves are channelling their inner Atlanta Hawks.
Here it is....
May 4th, 2012
2:06 pm
Bobby is too soft on these players…Shoot I mean Fredi….Lets face it..Booby Cox is still in control…and that is the problem. But we’ll hang tight and see what happens…..
cdog
May 4th, 2012
3:37 pm
old school, right on mr. shultz! and beat the whole national league east. it” a reflection on the manager and the losing attitude and lack of competitiveness displayed by him and most of the players.
jfreak13713
May 4th, 2012
3:41 pm
Braves starting pitching will due them in at some point. Don’t get me wrong their starting pitching is good but its just not great nor do they have even one dominate starter. They are all pitchers who rely on control and movement and that will win during regular season but post seasons is different. Hope I’m wrong but I am not impressed with their starting pitching to this point. Maybe Hudson changes my mind??
JeanE
May 4th, 2012
4:37 pm
Agreed but too early this season to freak about it YET. I do wish he’s played MattE D against Blanton, even though he’s a righty, MattE hit him last time they played. But NOOO, Fredi sticks to the whole “Diaz can’t hit righties” philosophy. Fat Juan didn’t do jack against Blanton. Why are they so afraid to let Martin play 3rd sometimes, afraid he’ll miss it so much he won’t be happy going back to LF???? These Bravos definitely are hot/cold and very streaky but they seem to really enjoy eachother so I’m willing to see how it goes. Get them Rockies!! And let MattE play against Father Time, Jamie Moyer!!!
Roja
May 4th, 2012
5:01 pm
Looks like we may not have to beat the Phillies. Not many .500 teams make it to the post season (except in the NBA and NFL)
Roja
May 4th, 2012
5:07 pm
Blanton had to step up…. Halliday certainly can’t handle us this year. He was 107-0 with 4 runs of support but couldn’t hold the Bravos even though he had a 6 run lead. By the way, how many World Series Rings do Lee and Halliday have between them?? One less than Chipper
Disgusted
May 4th, 2012
5:46 pm
We might have got to Halliday in the second game of the series, but Tommy Hanson was no great shkes in that game and Tommy Hanson is not what he is cracked up to be.
When has he won a big signifigant game that was a season defining game.
It was Derek Lowe who saved the WC spot in 2010 and where was Tommy H down the stretch in 2011? Oh, right, on the DL.
Great pitcher Hanson is not, when he accomplishes half of what Halliday has accomplished then he can be mentioned in the ballpark with the game’s accomplishers.
I am disappointed in what Hanson has become after that nice rookie yr. Guess when he does get it together, Liberty will be too cheep to pay him so we have to go to other undeveloped kids.
Bad cycle, bad ownership, bad manager and perpetual mediocrity.
Disgusted
May 4th, 2012
5:53 pm
“Take out Chipper and Uggla and what have you got for big dollar salaries? The Phillies can lose Lee, Howard and Utley for weeks at a time and still compete because they have the depth on the bench, or they go out and get it. The Braves will not compete at a high level on a regular basis until they get back to where they used to be in terms of relative salary numbers. And as for the revenue, if they invest and make a commitment, the fans will come. Right now, the fans are too jaded and skeptical of the results, which have become too predictable.”
Tip your cap—under this ownership there is mistrust that the Braves will invest and make the commitment they used to. There is a trust gulf between the fans and this ownership.
And that is part of the cynicisim fans like myself have. And this particular team is relying too much on young pitchers like Delgado and Minor who might be good someday but are in their learning stages. I am disappointed in them, and when they do get good, guess what–they probably go elsewhere to get paid.
And when Chipper and Lowe’s money come off the books at the end of this yr do you really trust this ownership to replace that with above average quality talent. The price is going up.
Looking at this off season, the more I see of Liberty Media the less I trust them. And that TV deal makes things worse, even for a new owner is this team an attractive investment?
Baseball is damed in Atlanta until the TV deal is up
dawg4u
May 4th, 2012
7:03 pm
Confucius say – “It is better to pee yourself in September than in May.”
extremus
May 4th, 2012
7:11 pm
Maybe this should be a “natural rivalry” series since most of the Braves ownership are very likely Rockies fans.
Skeezix
May 4th, 2012
7:15 pm
Losing this series at home was very disappointing-especially the way the Fillies have thumbed their noses at the Braves at the end of the last two seasons. It shows that we haven’t turned the corner yet. Most disconcerting was the poor performance by the Braves pitchers–starters and relievers.
Anybody else think Tommy was tipping his pitches in the first game? It seemed like the Fillies batters knew when that curve ball was coming and just waited on it.
Skeezix
May 4th, 2012
7:19 pm
AJC please get rid of that annoying Meebo junk at the bottom of the screen!