Hall of Fame: Murphy thumbs up, juicers thumbs down
There's too much smoke around Bagwell
Murphy will get my vote -- but he's a longshot.
I was going to hold off on this blog for a few weeks until I actually had the 2012 Hall of Fame ballot in my hand and started checking off names for the next class to be enshrined in Cooperstown, N.Y. (a trip that, by the way, remains on my bucket list). But after listing the candidates Wednesday and finding myself debating the merits of Dale Murphy (clean) and Mark McGwire (dirty) on Facebook and Twitter, I figured I might as well get this out of the way now.
So, following are the 27 players on the ballot. Voters can select anywhere from zero to 10 players for enshrinement. Some voters are really silly about this, like they won’t vote a guy in the first time because they don’t think he’s a “first ballot” Hall of Famer, but they’ll vote for him after. Seems kind of stupid to me. If a guy belongs in, I don’t see the point in waiting. Anyway, I’m voting for seven. (Prediction: Only Barry Larkin and Jack Morris get the required 75 percent of the vote to make it in.)
As always, those who’ve admitted or were suspected of using steroids and/or performance enhancing drugs generally are going to be rejected by voters. (By the way: Barry Bonds will be on the ballot next year.) So with that, here are my thoughts on the candidates. And yes, I’m voting for Murphy.
(Listed alphabetically.)
• Jeff Bagwell: No. He has a Hall of Fame credentials (449 homers, 1,529 RBI, .297 average, MVP). But he was well short of induction last year with only 41.7 percent of the vote, at least in part because he has been suspected of using PEDs. Sports Illustrated’s Tom Verducci summarized the Bagwell debate nicely when he wrote: “Bagwell was an admitted Andro user who hired a competitive bodybuilder to make him as big as he could be, who claimed, [Mark] McGwire-like, that Andro “doesn’t help you hit home runs,” who went from a prospect with “no pop” to massively changing his body and outhomering all but six big leaguers in the 13 seasons before steroid penalties (Ken Griffey Jr. and five connected to steroids: Bonds, [Sammy] Sosa, Rafael Palmeiro, McGwire and Juan Gonzalez), and who condones the use of steroids — but said, “I never used.” Yeah. I’m going to need a few more years on this one.
• Jeromy Burnitz: No. But he played for eight teams, including the Indians, Cubs and Pirates. At the very least, I think we owe him a beer.
• Vinny Castilla: No. Castilla was hitting 40 homers a year in Colorado. He hit 12 and 22 in his two seasons in Atlanta, batting .254. Chipper Jones will never forget those two season. He watched them from left field.
• Juan Gonzalez: No. Has been linked to steroids and HGH. He was named in the Mitchell Report, which detailed how he was found with a bag at the airport loaded syringes and steroids. Most meaningless statistic of all: his 434 homers.
• Brian Jordan: No. One of my all-time favorite athletes (in two sports). It would’ve been fun to see what he could’ve done if he just played one. Had a terrific career (15 seasons, .282, 184 homers, 821 RBIs) but not Cooperstown material.
• Barry Larkin: Yes. I can’t believe he didn’t get in last year (received 62.1 percent of the votes) but he’ll get in this year. A 12-time All-Star, three-time Gold Glove, nine-time Silver Slugger at shortstop with Cincinnati. Finished with 2,340 hits. Slam dunk.
• Javy Lopez: No. The former Braves catcher doesn’t have the career numbers, and for those with suspicious minds, his 43-homer season in 2003 (a contract year) jumps way off the page.
• Edgar Martinez: No. A strong case can be made that Martinez has HOF credentials: .312, 2,247 hits, 309 HR, 1,261 RBIs. But I don’t like the fact that for most of his career — 6,218 of 8,672 plate appearances — he was a designated hitter. DH is a half-player in my book.
• Don Mattingly: Yes. Over 2,000 hits, nine Gold Gloves, seven All-Star Games. One MVP. A great ambassador for baseball. A thousand times, yes.
• Fred McGriff: Yes. Even if he didn’t hit 493 home runs, I think the fact that the Atlanta-Fulton Stadium press box caught on fire the day the Braves traded for him, cementing their 1995 World Series championship, is reason enough to put him in the Hall.
• Mark McGwire: No. He only finally admitted steroid use, not because of regret or shame but because he wanted to come back to coach and try to salvage his legacy. And by the way, I’m not sure he would’ve been a HOF player without steroids.
• Jack Morris: Yes. He also should be in already (received 53.5 percent of the vote last year). Beat John Smoltz (barely) in the greatest pitching match-up most have ever seen (1991 World Series). Won 254 games, finished with 2,478 strikeouts, 175 complete games.
• Bill Mueller: No. I’ve heard of him.
• Terry Mulholland: No. Ex-Brave. Can’t knock a guy who has a 20-year career. Just doesn’t mean he gets a bronze plaque.
• Dale Murphy: Yes. Murphy won’t get in but I’m voting for him anyway — again. I’ve heard the arguments about him not having the career numbers. But when you win consecutive MVP awards, there’s an acknowledgement that you were one of the best players in the game. Five Gold Gloves, four Silver Slugger Awards, seven All-Star selections, 398 homers — and he mostly played on crummy teams. And yes, he should get points for not juicing and representing the game the right way.
• Phil Nevin: No. Suddenly became Hercules in 2001 with 41 homers in 2001. Go figure.
• Rafael Palmeiro: No. I went to those Congressional steroid hearings in Washington D.C. The only difference between McGwire and Palmeiro is Palmeiro lied. (McGwire wasn’t interested in answering questions at all.) Palmeiro even pointed his finger at the panel for impact!
• Brad Radke: No. Did he room with Bill Mueller?
• Tim Raines: Yes. He was one of those players who always scared me. He played 23 seasons and had career averages of .294 with 57 stolen bases and 93 runs. He had six straight seasons of 70-plus steals and the 808 in his career rank fifth all time. For some reason, he has been kept out.
• Tim Salmon: No. But he did hit 299 homers and captains the All-Fish team with Mike Carp, Mudcat Grant and, of course, Catfish Hunter. (Feel free to add more down below.)
• Ruben Sierra: No. He’s on the ballot for the first time. He had a long (20 year) and solid career. He goes into the Hall of Very Good.
• Lee Smith: Yes. But it’s close. Some never considered a dominant closer, just a very good one. But he led the National League in saves four times and his 478 saves rank third in history. Isn’t that worth something?
• Alan Trammell: No. Another Hall of Very Good member. Over 2,000 hits, four Gold Gloves and a World Series MVP won’t be enough.
• Larry Walker: No. Much like my aversion to career designate hitters (Martinez), I’m predisposed to giving the stink eye to guys who build career numbers in the thin air of Colorado. Walker hit 258 homers and batted .334 in 10 years with the Rockies. He hit 125 homers and batted .282 in eight seasons in Montreal and St. Louis. Thumbs down.
• Bernie Williams: No. Another very good player, but that’s it. If his vote total becomes inflated, it’s because he played for the Yankees.
• Tony Womack: No. A bad way to end a career, via Wikipedia: “He received a non-roster invitation to spring training with the Washington Nationals for the 2007 season, but was released on March 8.”
• Eric Young: No. Played for 15 seasons. And that’s all I’ve got to say about that.
By Jeff Schultz
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169 comments Add your comment
Feeanch
November 30th, 2011
11:39 pm
First??
5150 UOAD
November 30th, 2011
11:48 pm
I love Murphy. Always a class act. Don’t know if he belongs in the HoF for his play, but for his Character. If Rose isn’t in the HoF then who cares anyway.
BravesFanLostInOhio
November 30th, 2011
11:48 pm
Jeromy Burnitz: No. But he played for eight teams, including the Indians, Cubs and Pirates. At the very least, I think we owe him a beer.
Dude, for real.
Chris
November 30th, 2011
11:50 pm
Using wins, RBIs, and saves as arguments for being Hall worthy won’t get you very far. As for steroid users, have to assume everyone was doing them. Bagwell, McGwire, and Palmeiro were among the best of that era. They should be in.
Bagwell, Larkin, McGwire, McGriff, Palmeiro, Raines.
Benjamin
December 1st, 2011
12:00 am
Jeff, take a little longer look at Trammell. He [like Murphy] won’t get in, but he [like Murphy] deserves closer consideration, in my opinion. He was an outstanding all around shortstop from 1980-1993, and was a key member of some very good Tiger teams including the WS MVP winner in 1984, as you mentioned, which does deserve some serious mention on “Hall of Very Good” players. He was as good an offensive shortstop as anyone during the prime of his career.
He was also a better defensive shortstop than he got credit for. In 1982, if you look at the numbers, he was the hands-down Gold Glove deserving winner, but in the way that Gold Gloves are voted for, he didn’t get it.
Brian Jordan
December 1st, 2011
12:01 am
Very weak class with all the PEDs swirling around the top players.
–
Braves Blog: Craig Kimbrel – http://bit.ly/atlblog
Paul in NH
December 1st, 2011
12:07 am
I’d love to see Dale Murphy elected to the HoF – he was the 2nd best slugger of his era after Mike Schmidt and I think he deserves it. I can’t believe that Tim Raines isn’t in already – you can bet if he had spent the majority of his career in New York or Boston instead of Montreal he would be in by now.
BTW Jeff – you described game 7 of the 1991 WS as the best pitching match up most have ever seen – can you think of any better one ever? I know I can’t.
dabbas
December 1st, 2011
12:08 am
So you’re going to vote for Murphy because of his two MVPs but won’t vote for Edgar because he was a DH. Are you going to vote for Frank Thomas when his turn comes?
Benjamin
December 1st, 2011
12:12 am
Raines should’ve been in years ago. You could make a strong case that he’s top five all time when it comes to leadoff men, and he was a fantastic defensive outfielder, to boot.
Larkin should’ve been first ballot.
Let's see...
December 1st, 2011
12:24 am
I too like Dale and wish more players today had his character on and off the field. BUT, he played on some God awful teams and frankly there were not that many “moments” of excellence to warrant his induction right now. Plus, it pains me to say he really struggled with the curve ball. I know Atlantans want Murphy in but you’ll have to wait five years after Mr. Personality at 3rd base retires.
jlrbrave
December 1st, 2011
12:41 am
Murphy would have been in easily if not for the Steroids era and how it inflated stats. People look at 36 homers these days without any interest but this was like 50 homers in the 90’s or 40 homers today.
Murphy had more total bases than any other player of the 80’s and only Schmidt had more homers and Murray had more RBI’s (all from mlb.com). He was undoubtedly one of the greatest 10 players to play in the 80’s but his biggest mistakes were resigning with the losing Braves and hanging out his career too long with too many bad years at the end (note Chipper is doing the same now).
Murphy and I agree Mattingly both should be in the HOF and I didn’t even bring up how priceless their rookie cards were in the 80’s.
jlrbrave
December 1st, 2011
12:48 am
RE: Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas
I am also not real high on career DHer’s but if either of them get in, it only gives another catapulting reason for Murph to be in – people came to the park as much to see Murph play CF as they did to see him hit – the guy won 5 gold gloves (Larkin only won 3 and he’s a shoo-in?)
Murphy on Hall of Fame ballot for 14th time – AtlantaBraves.com | Sports News Alert
December 1st, 2011
12:53 am
[...] be announced on Jan. 9. You can watch the announcement live at 2 pm ET on an MLB Network …Hall of Fame: Murphy thumbs up, juicers thumbs downAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)all 12 news [...]
Ed
December 1st, 2011
1:09 am
Why does the AJC let you vote on the Hall of Fame but not for other awards as you have mentioned before?
Prestadigitation
December 1st, 2011
2:30 am
In my opinion, if Duke Snyder is a hall of famer, then Dale Murphy is as well. The Duke hit 9 more home runs and 77 more RBI’s then Dale, and had 1 more all star appearance (8 vs. 7). However, on most other categories, Dale has him beat. Dale was a 5x gold glover, 4x silver slugger, and back to back MVP, which is a distinction that should put Dale over the top.
Stinger2
December 1st, 2011
4:00 am
In fairness to all players, there should be a set of guidelines to determine who can qualify to be elected.
If the player does not meet the requirements he should never be on the ballot.
Example:
Must have played for at least xx full seasons or xx number of career at bats.
Must have career BA of at least xx., xx hrs. and xx rbi.
Pitchers must have at least 300 wins and ERA below 3.50.
No player is eligible if use of steroids is admitted or
proven to be true.
DeepDiver
December 1st, 2011
5:04 am
Great line on Burnitz.
Don’t think it’s fair to penalize E. Martinez because he played in the American League — DH is legal over there you know. He is probably the greatest one of all time.
I personally hate the DH but it’s in the game as currently constructed, so that’s how it should be judged.
JoeDawg
December 1st, 2011
6:21 am
Jeff, I can see your stance on steroid users at the plate, but what about on the mound? At the same time the batters were juicing, so were the pitchers. The whole era was that way. As someone who watches a lot of baseball, (umpire at the high school and college level), I truly believe that it takes more than muscles to hit home runs. At the high school and college level, for example, the aluminum bats are evolving backward to the same level as wood. Consequently, home run totals at the high school and college level are plummeting. As for Mark McGwire, he hit 50+ his first year as a skinny, bean-pole. Did the steroids really help that much? I guess my position boils down to this, the steroid era produced inflated numbers at the plate. But, the pitchers were juicing also, so it was an “even” playing field.
Bone
December 1st, 2011
6:33 am
If Reggie Jackson, who had a terrible career batting average and so-so fielding got in, only because he was a Yankee, then Murphy should be there as well. These sports writers need to look at stats more than their love affair with a player/team.
jerry
December 1st, 2011
7:04 am
Snider, not Snyder. The Duke of Flatbush.
K Conway
December 1st, 2011
7:09 am
No juicers period! You can’t reward cheaters! Murphy a good guy but not good enough!
Doc
December 1st, 2011
7:19 am
HOF is so watered down its irrelevant. Give me 3 guys at each position per decade, if they have the numbers.
Bill
December 1st, 2011
7:22 am
I would not vote Bagwell in either.But it is worth noting that as a power hitter some of his numbers were in that canyon known as the Astrodome.
Wish you hadn’t brought up that Smoltz-Morris game again.
Richard Alpert
December 1st, 2011
7:26 am
I also don’t think its fair to penalize Edgar Martinez. He did spend time at 1st base as well, and if the rules are that the DH counts as an ENTIRE player, he should get an ENTIRE vote. Are you saying that he wouldn’t have had the batting stats if he had been playing 1st base each inning?
Here are my “votes” –
Jack Morris (winningest pitcher of the 1980’s, when you win your decade, you are in)
Edgar Martinez (See above)
Fred McGriff (CRIME DAWG! My favorite Brave EVER! Plus, he had an amazing career at the plate and an underrated fielder)
Barry Larkin (I agree with you, should’ve been a lock last year)
Jeff Bagwell (The guy could flat out hit, and built his body legally)
Don Mattingly (If he was on the 90’s or 00’s Yankees, he’d be a lock)
Lee Smith (DOMINANT closer)
Tim Raines (Rickey Henderson without the crappy attitude, although he carried cocaine in his pockets early in his career)
Class of '98
December 1st, 2011
7:26 am
Tim Raines? You have got to be kidding. Induct HIM into the Hall of Very Good. I don’t even think Larkin deserves it.
You voters water down the Hall by voting for these good, not great, players.
Class of '98
December 1st, 2011
7:28 am
In 50 years the Hall of Fame is going to be a million square feet. It will be the size of Mall of America with all these chumps you writers vote in.
Freedom from insanity
December 1st, 2011
7:44 am
What about the “seniors” class? Specifically Ron Santo.
Ostrich Racer
December 1st, 2011
7:44 am
Murphy should be in. When Channel 17 went national (remember the Super Station?), he became the face of baseball during the game’s greatest period of expansion, and he was always a first-class representative of the city and the game. He elevated baseball, and that’s got to be worth something.
Morris and Raines should also be in. I agree with benjamin on Trammell — we is vastly underappreciated.
Also, the Fish need Kevin Bass in the outfield.
Ostrich Racer
December 1st, 2011
7:45 am
“He” (Trammell) is vastly underappreciated. “We” (me and Sonny Clusters) are probably overappreciated.
Josh
December 1st, 2011
7:47 am
Good article. I appreciate your explanations. Don’t really agree with the DH thing though. I get how they can be looked at as 1/2 a player, but they are playing, and in Martinez’s case, excelling, within the system that allows them to do so right? Martinez is probably the best, or one of the best, to ever DH on a consistent basis. I think from that perspective he might deserve a little more consideration.
Mike Trout
December 1st, 2011
7:56 am
Don’t forget me on your All-Fish Team!
Hit A Single
December 1st, 2011
8:17 am
Dale Murphy deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. 2 time MVP and could have gone to other teams but stayed loyal to the Braves. Also changed positions due to his throwing problems behind the plate and did an outstanding job defensively in the outfield. Many times teams could have pitch around him because he just didn’t have a threat hitting behind him. Sure he chased bad pitches but he knew he had to swing it for the Braves to be successful. If Bob Horner could have stayed healthy there is no doubt in my mind that Dale would have hit 400 or 425 homeruns.
Bob the Blogger
December 1st, 2011
8:17 am
Fred McGriff hardly got any votes last year, but he’s a HOFer for sure. His average, OBP, slugging pct all are significantly higher than Dawson’s, and his 493 HRs and eight 100 RBI seasons put him in elite company. He was very good for a very long time, and did it without the juice.
tp
December 1st, 2011
8:21 am
Here’s one for the ‘fish list’: Kevin Bass.
He wasn’t linked to steriod use, but fellow players say he had a big mouth …
bravo bravos
December 1st, 2011
8:25 am
Good piece! Hard to believe some of the names even on the ballot…Tony Womack? Terry Mulholland? Murphy should be in. He played in a different era and his stats for the decade of the 80’s are right up there at the top of the very best of his day. He played great defense in the outfield and represented the game with class as well as anyone I’ve ever seen play the game.
As for the juicers…while the point can be partially made about both pitchers and hitters using steroids, therefore the playing field was even, it is largely off the mark. Let’s say 20-25% of everyone, pitchers and hitters, were juiced. That means that the 20-25% had a distinct advantage over the other 75-80%. The users were going up against non-users at least that 75-80% of the time which gave them an edge over the non-users. Cut their stats accordingly and see where they stack up against everbody else.
Max Sizemore
December 1st, 2011
8:27 am
Jeff, I’m quite impressed with your baseball knowledge, and I like your reasoning on most of the ballot. But I’m with Benjamin (obviously a baseball guy) and Ostrich, Trammell should be in.
bravo bravos
December 1st, 2011
8:27 am
Favorite fish team player….Sid Bream
Brian B.
December 1st, 2011
8:36 am
Want to win a few bar bets ??? Name the player who had the most HR’s and RBI’s in the 80’s …
Answer … Dale Murphy.
One of the criteria for the Hall should be whether or not you were clearly one of the best players of your era. I don’t think there is any doubt that Murphy was. If he had played his career in NY or LA, can you imagine the media drumbeat that we would now be hearing demanding his induction ?
Jack Straw
December 1st, 2011
8:39 am
Your arguments are good, but I disagree on Trammell. Shortstops are overlooked in HOF voting. Trammell has all the qualifications.
John S
December 1st, 2011
8:41 am
I would vote Bagwell, Larkin, E Martinez, McGriff, Raines and Trammell. Murphy was a very good player, had a few great peak years, and then fell off a cliff. I don’t buy into the DH issues with Martinez.He could certainly have played a position adequately for a lot longer than he did. Trammell is vastly under-appreciated.
Hoof Hearted
December 1st, 2011
8:47 am
Jeff, I agree with your analysis completely. . .the end is near.
I grew up idolizing Dale Murphy, so I’m probably not too objective about him being in the HOF, but after reading your argument for his inclusion, I yelled (literally, out loud, at my computer screen) a very un-Dale-like “F@&$ YEAH!”
Newman
December 1st, 2011
8:48 am
Raines has been kept out because he was a coke head.
1eyedJack
December 1st, 2011
8:49 am
Maybe one day Dale will get appointed by the Veteran’s Committee.
Hankie Aron
December 1st, 2011
8:54 am
Mark- Thanks for the trip down memory lane for these 80’s kind of guys.
GTT
December 1st, 2011
8:56 am
Curious, I thought a vote like this would violate AJC policy? Dumb policy by the way.
Hankie Aron
December 1st, 2011
8:57 am
My favorite player Fred “The Crime Dog” Mcgriff should have been in before. Maybe, just maybe this is his year
MatthewH
December 1st, 2011
8:57 am
It was my understanding that the AJC didn’t let its writers vote on awards. DOB has said that he couldn’t vote on Rookie of the Year for baseball as well as MVP. I think Bradley has said the same thing. The reason given is that the AJC didn’t want its writers to become part of the story.
Is this different? Does the AJC let you vote on HOF?
the real OLD GOLD
December 1st, 2011
9:08 am
You’re dead on Mark. “Hall of Fame Numbers” are not to be compared to numbers from the entire history of baseball. A baseball Hall of Famer is supposed to be the best player from their particular era.. and Murphy had leading numbers in countless categories throughout the late 70s and early to mid 80s. He was at the top of his era and belongs in the Hall.
timthebrave
December 1st, 2011
9:14 am
my vote would be for Larkin, Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, and Fred McGriff. Jack Morris is close but the 3.90 ERA makes me say no. Lee Smith and Raines are borderline but a no for me as well
Bristol Palin 2012
December 1st, 2011
9:15 am
Great job Jeff. Only one I question is Lee Smith.
benchwarmer
December 1st, 2011
9:29 am
Trammell should be in. Absolutely no too ALL juicers. Major league ownership may be a bunch of money mad hypocrites but the baseball writers can stop the madness by not endorsing cheaters.
hawesg
December 1st, 2011
9:34 am
If baseball has a position like DH or Closer, then the best players at that position should get in. That includes Lee Smith and that includes Edgar Martinez. You can put Rabbit Maranville in the Hall because he did one thing well (field the ball), but exclude Edgar because he did one thing well?
I’d vote for McGriff, Murphy, Larkin, Trammell, Raines and Smith. Jack Morris shouldn’t get in because he had a great game. The really tough call is Bagwell. Is there evidence of PED use? Or are we just going to not vote for anyone who went to the gym in the ’90s?
Rich T
December 1st, 2011
9:39 am
The same voters who refuse to vote for guys with monster numbers because of their character issues (cheating, betting, juicing), are hypocrites for not voting for the polar opposite Murphy. If character factors into decision making with some, it should with all. While it may be true that Murphy had bubble numbers for typical HoF criteria, he had a ton of character and was the perfect representative for the game in a time when MLB needed it, in the years following the 1981 strike.
JSS
December 1st, 2011
9:39 am
I always laugh when people bring up that jerk Jack Morris’s 3.90 ERA… During his prime years when the Tigers were good, he was only above a 3.50 ERA 3 times in a 10 year period. Lee Smith is getting a raw deal, he was lights out. Raines deserves to be in, revisionist always bring up coke use. That eliminates a lot of Hall of Famers including a certain Phillies third baseman. Larkin and McGriff should be in the Hall.
Reggie Ball
December 1st, 2011
9:44 am
Don’t forget Kevin Bass, Sid Bream, Steve and Dizzy Trout. And I presume the team plays at Land Shark Stadium.
Ted M
December 1st, 2011
9:44 am
Jeff – You should reconsider on Edgar Martinez. Even though you “think” of him as a half player the DH is a valid postion in the American League…in fact its a big part of the AL. EM did his job to Hall of Fame status and he belongs in.
JSS
December 1st, 2011
9:55 am
Edgar is no more half a player than Chipper has been since he moved back to third…
Dave in Buford
December 1st, 2011
9:59 am
Murphy should be in … if the same criteria that people use to reject his candidacy were applied to about half the players in the Hall now, they’d drop out, including and ESPECIALLY Snider. Snider is a classic example of the New York dominance in baseball and is frankly in the hall now mostly because he played in New York in the ’50’s, and he is very, very similar to Murphy … very good but basically only during that specific decade.
I agree with Brian B. … Murphy was the dominant player of his era, which was the ’80’s. You ask any pitcher of that time who they least wanted to face with runners on base and they will list Murphy as one of the hitters.
He should be in.
By the way, Jeff, if you’ve never been to Cooperstown, definitely plan on it … it is a pilgrimage
PMC
December 1st, 2011
10:02 am
I agree with all of your choices here Jeff, nothing to add really.
PMC
December 1st, 2011
10:03 am
I don’t get how Barry Larkin and Jack Morris aren’t in already.
blazerdawg
December 1st, 2011
10:04 am
Thank you for voting for Dale Murphy, JS. You make a great case for him and tow MVP awards must be considered very important using the “best of his time” standard. The poor teams of the late 70s and late 80s certainly contributed to his numbers – only a healthy Horner or a sober C Washington gave him cover in the batting order. DM also played catcher and first base as well, which was rare at the time.
Is the case against him somehow media bias against ATL? It is hard to imagine a two-time MVP from Chicago, Boston or NY that would not get into the HOF – perhaps there is one, but I cannot think of anyone.
Red Stick
December 1st, 2011
10:04 am
Jeff, I disagree about Edgar Martinez. If the DHer is a half-player couldn’t the same apply to closers…or even starting pitchers?
Relievers, starting pitchers and DHers are all positions and players who excel in them should get in.
Rich T
December 1st, 2011
10:12 am
Continuing on my earlier thought, Dale Murphy was to MLB after the 1981 strike as Cal Ripken was to MLB following the 1994-95 stoppage.
LawDawg
December 1st, 2011
10:17 am
You should at least mention that in Vinny’s two years here, he played about the best defensive third base imaginable.
Dawglasville
December 1st, 2011
10:20 am
Jeff – for my two cents, and I know that you are on the edge of your seat, I think your picks are spot on. Love Murphy, McGriff, Larkin, Raines, and Lee Smith.
Dawglasville
December 1st, 2011
10:22 am
Every time I hear Jack Morris’ name I get sick. Probably the most painful loss I’ve taken as a sports fan.
Rip Knight
December 1st, 2011
10:26 am
I have a question for you Jeff. And I promise you that I mean this with the utmost respect. Why do you and the rest of the sportswriters across this great land only get to vote on this? Why can’t we all participate in who gets elected to the Hall of Fame? If it were up to me, I would have had Dale Murphy in the hall over 10 years ago. I’m sure if they were honest – the players would say the same thing. Baseball is for the FANS!!!!!!!! The Game doesn’t exist without the fans and we’re the same ones that get these guys selected for all those All Star games. Just an extremely frustrating thought.
SteveW
December 1st, 2011
10:29 am
Murph’s stats came from a CF, at least some of the time, with a cannon for an arm also. If the HOF is for the most dominant players of an era, you cannot dispute the fact that Murph was one of the dominant players of the 80’s. You just can’t.
Rich T
December 1st, 2011
10:30 am
Rip Knight: You answered your own question when you noted that fans vote on the All-Star Game. Too often there are guys who get voted to their respective league’s teams who don’t deserve the honor that particular year. However, I do believe players, managers, coaches, etc., of a certain tenure should be allowed to vote, as well as the living members who have been inducted.
Steve
December 1st, 2011
10:34 am
Dave Kingman> Mark McGwire
brad
December 1st, 2011
10:40 am
If Pete Rose isn’t in the HOF then nobody should be. Shut the place down.
Ken Myers
December 1st, 2011
10:41 am
ESPN talking idiot Skip Bayless would rank your selections as belonging to the Hall of the Very Good.
duronimo
December 1st, 2011
10:47 am
I like you picks. Steroid enhanced numbers are lies. They’re not called performance enhancement drugs for nothing. (excuse the double negatives) It’s odd to consider drug enhanced players for the hall and disqualify someone like Pete Rose who’s failings had nothing whatever to do with his great playing career.
DawgDad
December 1st, 2011
10:48 am
Steroid user debate aside, I’d add Trammell, Walker, and Lopez to your ballot. Catchers need to be evaluated in comparison with other catchers, much like pitchers are evaluated in comparison with other pitchers. There is so much wear and tear on the body anybody who catches as many games as Javy did and puts up the numbers he did belongs in the Hall. Ted Simmons belongs, too, and so does Joe Torre.
Banned Poster
December 1st, 2011
10:51 am
Schultz, I give you a hard time about the blogs you do on college football, but I will gladly call a truce here with you. Great blog and thank you for your support of Murph. My opinion is Dale Murphy was one of the best players to play in his era. His numbers are not comparable to Mike Schmidt who was the best overall hitter during the years Murphy played, but his numbers are comparable to those of Kirby Pucket, Dave Winfield, Andre Dawson, etc… and those were guys who played with Murphy and are in the Hall of Fame. I don’t think the voters will put him in b/c most of these guys are clueless (no way Alomar should have been left off the first ballot b/c of a spitting incident while Rickey “I am in love with myself and screw the game” Henderson got in on the first try. If they are first ballot, then they are first ballot). Eventually I think Murph will get in the way of Phil Rizzuto and Bill Mazorowski and that is via the Vet Committee. If those guys are HOFs, then so is Dale Murphy.
And speaking of Rizzuto, if he is a HOF shortstop, then Alan Trammel deserves to be a HOF shortstop. In my opinion Tim Raines was as feared a leadoff hitter as Ricky Henderson, but played the majority of his career in Montreal which had little media attention. He deserves enshrinement. So does Jack Morris, Fred McGriff, Barry Larkin, and Donny baseball. Lee Smith deserves to be in too. People forget that he first became a closer when managers put you in the 7th, 8th, and/or 9th to get the save and most of the time you pitched two or three innings. His numbers are much better than Hoffman, Eck, or others who will get in by only shutting down hitters in the 9th.
As for the All-Fish team……how can you or anyone on this blog forget about the most famous fish team base runner and that is one Sid Bream.
And as for this: Jeromy Burnitz: No. But he played for eight teams, including the Indians, Cubs and Pirates. At the very least, I think we owe him a beer…….Let’s not forget that this poor guy also had to play for the Mets……TWICE!
skip
December 1st, 2011
10:56 am
I hope Dale Murphy makes it in this time, but I doubt it. If there were a HOF for classly players he would be a first round slam dunk.
As an aside, here are some names I think deserve consideration: Dick Allen, Dwight Evans, Vada Pinson. What say you, Jeff?
Roger
December 1st, 2011
10:58 am
How many 2x MVP winners that are eligible have not made the hall other than Murph?
Banned Poster
December 1st, 2011
10:59 am
Roger……your answer would be Roger Maris.
Mandrell Dawg
December 1st, 2011
11:07 am
Murph should be in the HOF. I believe that he would have been by now if it weren’t for the steroid era and those inflated statistics. Dirty players diminished the accomplishments of players like Murphy. You would think that TWO MVP AWARDS would carry more weight.
By the way, I really don’t think it should be called a Hall of Fame without Pete Rose, in spite of his character since being banned from baseball.
Sid Bream
December 1st, 2011
11:15 am
Don’t forget me for the all fish team – BRAVES WIN! BRAVES WIN! BRAVES WIN!
VaBravesfan
December 1st, 2011
11:15 am
My brother and I coached Tony Womack in Post 16 ball in Gretna, VA about 30-odd years ago. That should warrant HOF votes. LOL
Monte
December 1st, 2011
11:45 am
If Andre Dawson, Bruce Sutter and Bert Blyleven are in the Hall of Fame and then so should Jack Morris, Dale Murphy and Lee Smith.
Hit A Single
December 1st, 2011
11:49 am
Dale Murphy is in my Hall of Fame and that will never change!
urban redneck
December 1st, 2011
11:54 am
i grew up watching dale murphy and i respect him a lot. that being said, mcgriff deserves to be in cooperstown, and murphy does not.
UGA 1999
December 1st, 2011
12:00 pm
I would easily vote for Murphy. I am just not sure that all of the voters will agree.
Mikey P
December 1st, 2011
12:05 pm
Jeff – here are the career stats for 5 first-basemen from generally the same era.
None of them are currently in the Hall. Can you pick your HoF pick from the others?
G H BB 2B 3B HR RBI AVE OBP SLG OPS Runs
A 2234 2239 1275 500 13 255 1230 .295 .398 .465 .863 1139
B 1785 2153 588 422 20 222 1099 .307 .358 .471 .830 1007
C 1994 1826 1262 332 39 340 1180 .267 .379 .476 .854 1118
D 1896 2192 448 415 47 241 1125 .298 .337 .466 .803 1012
E 1748 1848 894 320 79 351 1119 .292 .378 .534 .912 1099
All pretty close huh? My point is that Mattingly’s stats don’t jump out. Yes he had a MVP, but so did one of these others & all these folks were in the Top 10 in MVP voting at least 3 times in their career. They didn’t have all the Golden Gloves, but Mattingly got many of his out of name recognition not his play (just like Derek Jeter currently gets his awards). If Donnie Baseball had played in Milwaukee, SF, Toronto, or Phily we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion. BTW – A). John Olerud, B). Mattingly, C). Jack Clark, D). Cecil Cooper, E). Dick Allen
njbraves
December 1st, 2011
12:16 pm
Schultz….Guys like you are the problem with the HOF these days. Why don’t we just put everybody in?? You’re going to tell me that Murphy and Mattingly belong in the same HOF as Mays, Aaron, and Mantle?? Give me a break. Those two guys were very good players, but not elite. Neither guy played at a high level long enough to make the hall. There’s no shame in having a great career and not making the HOF. Stop watering it down by putting in guys who have no business being there.
anonymous
December 1st, 2011
12:17 pm
Murphy. No. So much fondness for him is why you think he should be in.
Just a real good player on a bad team. Not an all-time great one.
But then again, so are some other HOF’ers I suppose.
David Smith
December 1st, 2011
12:17 pm
If Bert Blyleven can finally make the Hall 13 games from winning 300 than Murph surely should be able to with 398 homers. Dale Murphy was one of the most feared hitters in the National League and for the hall to ignore inducting him primarily for not hitting 400 home runs or more is just ludicrous. Crime dog should be inducted as well.
DW
December 1st, 2011
12:19 pm
What about Fred McGriff?
Frank Wren
December 1st, 2011
12:20 pm
The Hall of Fame is overrated
Popularity contest
gator32301
December 1st, 2011
12:21 pm
I’m not sure how you can justify voting Mattingly in and not Trammell. Trammell was an appreciably better player when you factor in the positions they play – Trammell was head and shoulders better than the average shortstop of his time while Mattingly was only slightly so. Plus I have no idea what you mean by that “ambassador for baseball” nonsense.
Joe Earle
December 1st, 2011
12:22 pm
More for the all-fish team: Steve Trout, Kevin Bass, Side Bream. Not HOFers, but Murphy should be.
gator32301
December 1st, 2011
12:23 pm
and while being 3rd in perhaps the most overrated stat in all of sports is worth something, it’s certainly not worth being inducted into the HOF independent of other measures of performance.
Frank Wren
December 1st, 2011
12:23 pm
njbraves,
For every Mantle, Aaron and Mays there is an Andre Dawson,CArlton Fisk
BooBoo
December 1st, 2011
12:24 pm
Ask yourself, will baseball ever have another shortstop that is considered, “All field, but no hit”? Will baseball accept a second baseman that does not have the capability to hit 25-35 homeruns each year? Other than Tim Raines (who had the body of one sculpted from steroids, thus the ability to run like a deer), I don’t see any name on the list that shows the “hidden” talents of a shortstop like Larry Bowa or even Ozzie Smith (who beefed up once he was in the steroid capitol of the Middle Earth – St. Louis), who saved runs with their gloves, more than drove in runs batting eighth.
Dal Murphy is a hall of fame person. He had a few good years for a team that had run in the sewer so long it pissed off Tommy Lasorda that the Braves won more than they lost in 1980 & 1982. However, Dale Murphy was a catcher that could not throw to second base, and he was a first baseman that could not field or throw to second base. He found his nitch in center field. For anyone outside of Atlanta to look at what Dale Murphy did for the Brave (in hindsight), they will see he was good, but not Hall of Fame.
Maybe they need to create a special Hall of Fame, like a Hall of Fame Select Cut, and only put in the pure baseball players. No one is allowed who hits 49 home runs as a 19-year old rookie from El Salvadore. Put Murphy in with that group. The only problem is that is a dying breed because there are no longer any roster spots for big hearts, skinny arms on major league teams.
Kevin
December 1st, 2011
12:24 pm
Jeff, two big thumbs up for voting for Dale Murphy. He’s the reason I became a Braves fan in 1982 after my family moved to Northeast Georgia. I was 7. Murphy was one of the two best players in the NL (Schmidt), and the Braves were GOOD. Easy decision for a little kid like me. And although the Braves let me down every year after 1983 (pennant races are fun even if you don’t win ‘em all), Murphy never did. I mailed him for an autograph, and about a year later, I received a black/white card with his signature in blue Sharpie. I’ve still got that. The man was/is class and he proved it by not hanging around just to hit 2 more HR’s in Colorado in 1993.
Mikey P
December 1st, 2011
12:24 pm
Jeff – here are the career stats for 5 first-basemen from generally the same era.
None of them are currently in the Hall. Can you pick your HoF pick from the others?
G H BB 2B 3B HR RBI AVE OB% SLG OPS Runs
A 2234 2239 1275 500 13 255 1230 .295 .398 .465 .863 1139
B 1785 2153 588 422 20 222 1099 .307 .358 .471 .830 1007
C 1994 1826 1262 332 39 340 1180 .267 .379 .476 .854 1118
D 1896 2192 448 415 47 241 1125 .298 .337 .466 .803 1012
E 1748 1848 894 320 79 351 1119 .292 .378 .534 .912 1099
All pretty close huh? My point is that Mattingly’s stats don’t jump out. Yes he had a MVP, but so did one of these others and all these folks were in the Top 10 in MVP voting at least 3 times in their career. They didn’t have the Golden Gloves, but Mattingly got many of his out of name recognition not his play (just like Derek Jeter currently gets his awards). If Donnie Baseball had played in Milwaukee, SF, Toronto, or Phily we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion. BTW – A). John Olerud, B). Mattingly, C). Jack Clark, D). Cecil Cooper, E). Dick Allen
What?
December 1st, 2011
12:25 pm
Jeff – PLEASE CHECK YOUR MATH.
You said Tim Raines played 23 seasons and averaged 57 steals. That equals approximately 1,311 stolen bases. Yet, you say he only had 808 stolen bases. Over 23 seasons, that would average 35 steals a season.
Just Sayin'
December 1st, 2011
12:25 pm
What about Jeff Blauser? He watched a lot of HOF players.
Stuart
December 1st, 2011
12:26 pm
I would vote for Murphy under the same premise you have. I would go with Jack Morris and Don Mattingly with Larkin and Smith just missing out.
Homo the Brave
December 1st, 2011
12:32 pm
I would vote YES on Alan Trammell. He had the unfortunate situation of playing SS in the shadows of two AL guys named Yount and Ripken. If both of those guys had played in the NL with Ozzie Smith, Ozzie may not be in the HOF today.
I would also vote YES for Edgar Martinez. You may think much of a player who was a career DH, but he was the best DH in history.
I vote NO on Don Mattingly. He was a very good firstbaseman, but his numbers are almost identical to Wally Joyner’s. So the question is whether you think Wally Joyner is HOF material. I think the answer will be NO.
Mr. Dawg
December 1st, 2011
12:35 pm
Clear back when Pete Rose was banned from MLB and the Hall of Fame for violating baseball’s code of ethics in spite of mind boggling hitting numbers, I drew the opinion that the way Dale Murphy’ represented baseball was enough to push him and his so-called “boderline” career on the field into the Hall of Fame. As future players who hold records and have better numbers than him continue to be voted down for Hall of Fame induction because of steroid use I say the argument for Murph grows stronger.
Vince
December 1st, 2011
12:40 pm
Neither Murphy nor Mattingly belong in the HOF. Both very good players, but their stats don’t measure up. It’s not just excelling for a few key years, it’s also excelling for the duration. Murphy batted .265 for his career, with 1266 RBIs. compare those totals to others in the HOF and they’re lackluster. Mattingly had 222 HRs and 1099 RBIs for his career…as a first baseman. Hardly HOF caliber. Yeah, they’re great guys and good ambassadors for the game…but that doesn’t mean you’re HOF worthy.
Hetch Hetchy
December 1st, 2011
12:41 pm
Murphy has a .265 career average. If he had hit 500 homeruns, maybe he could be discussed a little for the HOF. However, his 398 is far, far behind that number.
2010 BCS CHAMPS
December 1st, 2011
12:50 pm
“Murphy thumbs up, juicers thumbs down”
Damn straight!
2010 BCS CHAMPS
December 1st, 2011
12:51 pm
I’ve argued with idiot Cub fans about how they think Greg Maddox will go into the HOF wearing a Cub uniform.
Phil the Pill
December 1st, 2011
12:52 pm
Dale Murphy should be voted in if for no other reason being that Andre Dawson is in and Murphy was always better than Andre. These guys had the same kind of career.
gator32301
December 1st, 2011
12:56 pm
Also – you ding Edgar Martinez for being a “part-time player” but vote for Lee Smith, who basically pitched an 3 innings a week – almost exclusively with his team already ahead.
Barry
December 1st, 2011
12:58 pm
At the time Andro was simply another supplement,like taking vitamins or drinking a powerade.Its only been considered a controlled substance the past few years.
coldcocky
December 1st, 2011
1:01 pm
More for the All-Fish Team: Sid Bream, Randy Bass, Kevin Bass, Chico Salmon…
Sonny Clusters
December 1st, 2011
1:04 pm
Juicing and baseball just don’t mix. One time when we was little and playing ball we played a team from Cobb County and all of ‘em had facial hair and some of their mommas. We was pretty sure they were juicing and once or twice we’d see ‘em get in a rage and turn red faced and something would come out of their ears. We liked to stay close to home after that.
NANA
December 1st, 2011
1:17 pm
No way should any juicers ever get in! ever, ever, ever. Cheaters should never win. It would set a horrible example to children coming up! NO NO NO!!
ATLcracker
December 1st, 2011
1:34 pm
All Fish Alex Gonzalez gets in three ways: Nickname Sea Bass, Team Marlins, his play- Crappie.
j
December 1st, 2011
1:37 pm
Murphy deserves to be in the HOF. Great player and class act. Of course, I’m biased. He was my rec. league basketball coach 20 years ago. Great guy.
James
December 1st, 2011
1:39 pm
It really baffles me that Ty Cobb is in the hall of fame yet Dale Murphy and Pete Rose cant get in.Yes I know what he did on the field and off.I can only assume that character was not a factor when Cobb went in as it is now.Such a shame.
Mike
December 1st, 2011
1:39 pm
The voters should not have to be the arbiter of whether a guy used PED’s or not. The truth is no one will ever really know who did and who didn’t (with a few obvious exceptions). Many players believe at least half of the league was using during the late ’90’s. So you either vote everyone in (if they have the numbers) or you vote no one it. Otherwise, too many players will be victims of innuendos and rumors. See Bagwell, Jeff. And Bagwell was considered a prospect with projected power down the road even though he didn’t hit a ton of homers in the minors. Go look at his doubles totals. Those doubles often turn into homers as guys mature and grow.
phil
December 1st, 2011
1:47 pm
Fire FG!
Dale dominated the 1980s and belongs in the hall but will never make it due to the usual bias against players from down our way, not that there have ever been many that deserved it.
Chipper is already being talked about with doubt when the question of whether he belongs should never even be ASKED.
phil
December 1st, 2011
1:48 pm
j
December 1st, 2011
1:37 pm
Murphy deserves to be in the HOF. Great player and class act. Of course, I’m biased. He was my rec. league basketball coach 20 years ago. Great guy.
**********
And I once saw him live at a game at old Fulton County…..
Carol Dunaway
December 1st, 2011
1:57 pm
Have watched Dale Murphy play since he started with the Braves and I must say that as an avid baseball fan, Murph is among the finest people and one of the finest baseball players ever. Have met the man in person and seen the sense of fair play and honesty that he exemplifies ; I would love for my grandson to follow in his foosteps. Murph deserves the HoF!!!
Mark
December 1st, 2011
2:02 pm
If Aaron and Mays weren’t first balloters, no one will be. In my opinion, the writers should not be doing this – too much personal animosity shown and too rigid in their “principles.” Let former baseball executives, managers, etc, who know the game and can make some sound, objective choices. There are some legitimate first-timers who should be voted first-timers to set them apart from any other HOFer.
Hillbilly D
December 1st, 2011
2:40 pm
I will preface my remarks by saying that I agree with the criteria set by the late baseball writer Joe Falls. He said that he always asked himself one question, “Was this guy a dominant player, in his era, at his position, for a sustained period?”.
Here’s the ones I would vote for:
Barry Larkin Pretty much self-explanatory.
Jack Morris The guy was a horse. A top of the line pitcher in his time and a big game pitcher to boot. He wanted the ball when the game was on the line and he wanted to finish what he started.
Dale Murphy His numbers are borderline but I’d put him in on the intangibles. The guy was one of the top players in the NL during the ’80s, on some pretty horrid teams. He was a 5 tool guy and could do it all. His numbers are nearly identical to Gary Carter’s. If Carter is in, Murphy goes in, too, in my book.
Tim Raines Another gamer. Didn’t hit for power but did everything else. His base stealing and base running made up for his lack of pop. Saw him go 1st to home one night in old Atlanta Stadium and I’ve never seen another human being moving as fast as he was, when he rounded 3rd base. To top off all that, he was a fierce competitor.
Lee Smith When he retired, he was the all-time Saves leader. He came before the era of the 3 out closer. I’ve seen him pitch many a 5 and 6 out save. If you had trouble brewing in the 8th, or even the 7th sometimes, Big Lee was coming in and you weren’t going to see anybody else up in the bullpen, from there ’til the end.
Borderline guys: Mattingly and McGriff. Not sure if I would vote for them or not but wouldn’t be upset if they get in.
No way guys: Bagwell, McGuire, Palmiero for obvious reasons. Edgar Martinez. He’s by all accounts a great guy and he put up some big numbers but like Jeff, I don’t think half a player gets in.
Rowsdower
December 1st, 2011
2:49 pm
@JoeDawg
Steroids do not help you hit home runs. What they do is heal you faster which allows you to perform at peak levels throughout the season rather than fading in August and September like mortals do during a 162 game season.
They also allow you to workout much harder than you should be able to during the season. This makes them stronger which means those warning track fly balls are suddenly landing in a bay somewhere.
There’s simply no way Bonds, McGwire and Sosa have the HR totals they had without steroids. There is no way in hell Bonds passes Hank if he’s not juicing.
The same thing applies to the Roger Clemens’ of the world. The steroids allowed them to recover quicker which made them more effective. I’ve been pitching for 30 years. After that first start of the season, you’re running at about 90% with a steady decline as the season goes on.
None of those douchebags should be in the HoF.
Hillbilly D
December 1st, 2011
3:04 pm
I’ve argued with idiot Cub fans about how they think Greg Maddox will go into the HOF wearing a Cub uniform.
Actually, the Hall of Fame chooses the uniform and the player has no say in the matter. Andre Dawson went in as an Expo, even though he preferred to go in as a Cub.
rivercard
December 1st, 2011
3:09 pm
Don’t see how you can vote against Bagwell based on him taking what was at the time a legal and popular supplement(Andro). If you have knowledge of his taking something illegal -fine. Otherwise not a very principled position.
Based on today’s somewhat watered down criteria Raines, Morris, Larkin and Smith should be slam dunks. Murphy, Mcgriff , Martinez and Trammell – on the fence.
Nativebird
December 1st, 2011
3:11 pm
If the DH is 1/2 a ball player (and I agree that he is), than a relief pitcher is 1/2 of a 1/2 of a ball player (at least in the American Leaque). And then that makes a closer a 1/2 of a 1/2 of a 1/2 of a ball player. NO WAY a guy like Dennis Eckersley or Catfish Hunter should get the same bronze plaque that Nolan Ryan got. just No way. Period.
Hillbilly D
December 1st, 2011
3:21 pm
Eckersly was a starter about half of his career. A pretty good but not great one. Catfish Hunter was a starter, not a closer.
Nativebird
December 1st, 2011
3:38 pm
My bad Hillbilly D, I meant to say Goose Gossage, not Catfish. and Eckersly by and large was known for his career as a reflief pitcher. Never the less, it still holds……they’re not ball players, not even full pitchers. So get’em a different Hall.
Hillbilly D
December 1st, 2011
3:49 pm
Nativebird
You’re right about Eckersly. He was a pretty good starter but he never would’ve been considered for the Hall on that part of his career.
SEC Fact Finder
December 1st, 2011
4:43 pm
I was fortunate to be working in Baseball during the Dale Murphy era( well part of it) and the common thing in our opposing dugout during spring training games was after he learned to hit the curve ball to not throw him anything over the plate and to keep everything really really low. He still found ways to hit those low pitches. Dale had very little in front of him and very little behind him. If he had just “good” players on his teams he would have gotten a great deal more pitches.
When Dale came up he could run, hit, and field. Not the best or even close to it all three but he was “the talent” on a some poor teams. Still won two MVP’s on sheer talent alone.
He would get my vote and I saw up close and personal the sterioids during my time with the Oakland A’s while in Huntsville AA ball with Mc, Canseco and many many others.
Zing
December 1st, 2011
4:54 pm
JS:
Pretty much agree, except for Larry Walker. Do you think his BA was inflated as much as 30 points by playing half his games at CO? That would still put him at hitting .300 for that long, long period of time. That’s awfully good. (And I don’t think .030 is actually reasonable, given that he was more of a contact hitter than a homerun guy). You’d need to look up what the league averaged there, seems to me, during that period.
I remember seeing Walker play– at his peak, he was the best pure (non-juiced) hitter in the game. It was virtually impossible to get him out. Very similar to Tony Gwynn. (And very similar numbers as well… hmmm….)
Disagree on that one. Otherwise… yuppers.
rugburn
December 1st, 2011
5:00 pm
i’ve always hated that knucksie had to wait to get in and nolan ryan didn’t…check the records. very close. knucksie played on some really bad teams while ryan chased the money to better teams. 7 no-hitters? awesome! that’s 7 games…..
living in the past
December 1st, 2011
5:07 pm
aah, the good ole days….when you could take $25 to the Launching Pad, get into the game, sit anywhere you wanted, eat and drink to your heart’s content and watch baseball while listening to Pete, Skip and Ernie on your radio……
unfortunately, I don’t think Murph will make it until the folks who grew up in that era get enough votes to put him in. (if it ever happens…) too bad.
Mitchell
December 1st, 2011
5:13 pm
I’ve never heard of Phil Nevin in my entire life.
Who the hell is Phil Nevin?
By the way, Brian Jordan? Is that a joke?
Anyway, seems like he’s been retired longer than five years. He’ll make the broadcasters wing of the Hall of Fame that’s for sure.
I can rest easy at night knowing that.
Mitchell
December 1st, 2011
5:19 pm
Fred McGriff and Dale Murphy are Hall of Famers.
And I don’t mean, “They’re Hall of Famers in my book, wink.”
They are Hall of Famers. Period.
If they don’t make the Hall of Fame within the next two years I’m burning the quaint, lakeside hamlet of Cooperstown, NY to the ground.
I’m not going to do that. That was a joke.
MitchC
December 1st, 2011
5:30 pm
Jeff, I agree with most of your list.
As for Murph: While he did win two MVP’s. He unfortunately has two things against him. One.. on the bubble career numbers of a 265 batting average lifetime, and “only” 398 homers. That, and his injuries and decline the last few years of his career.
If you’ve read Tom Glavine’s book, you know that Glav said he feels Murph is probably on the bubble, but “should” get in.
I dont think Murph will get in. Not only because of his numbers, but also because, except for 1982 and 1983, the Braves flat out stunk when he played for them. It took Knucksie until his sixth try to get in, and he won more games than Tom Seaver.
The Braves that will be in the Hall. Maddux and Glavine definitely. Smoltz. I dont see how he doesnt,. being the only guy with 200 wins and 150 saves. If Eck got in, he definitely should. Chipper.. I dont think he will get to 500 homers. but.. he will have 450, and a 300 lifetime average. I’d say hes in too.
I dont think the Steroid guys should get in either. Hank and Babe and Willie Mays all hit more than 650 homers, and were clean. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire. No to all. If they didnt do it honestly, they dont deserve it.
I’ll be very surprised if Murph gets in, unless by the Veteran’s Committee one day. I had hoped he would play long enough to hit 500 homers, but, with his raw numbers, and the bad teams he played for, I have to say no.
fish oil
December 1st, 2011
5:42 pm
I’d vote for Ralph Garr and Bonito Santiago.
vermont 39
December 1st, 2011
6:51 pm
i am a Dale Murphy fan…unfortunately, he is the best candidate for the Hall of Almost Fame… I am also NOT a fan of Kirby Puckett or Don Drysdale being in the Hall of Fame…great moments…not careers…Mattingly is borderline for the same reason.
taxman
December 1st, 2011
6:52 pm
It wouldn’t surprise me if nobody went in this year. McGriff is so-so and so is Larkin but the rest of the group I don’t know. Dale Murphy won’t make it either.
Dick Large
December 1st, 2011
8:09 pm
All Fish Team: Gentleman George Haddock was a pitcher in the 1890’s.
SG
December 1st, 2011
8:25 pm
As much as Morris is one of all of my serious all-time favorites, he never won the Cy, but he did win a couple of WS including that infamous Game 7 —- and didn’t he have 3 no-hitters? One of the fiercest competitors I’ve ever seen in any sport. Vote him in. Oh yeh, Dale too!
Wes
December 1st, 2011
8:33 pm
Love the ballot. One of the few writers I actually agree with. If Mattingly used steroids to recover from his degenerative back condition there is no telling the numbers he would have put up.
Raines TRULY belongs in the Hall. He was the best, and most feared, player on his team and two of those teammates are already in (Carter and Dawson). Morris big game ability truly deserves notice. Not 100% sure he belongs but it’s hard to argue against the guy who was probably one of the top 3 pitchers for a decade.
snarf
December 1st, 2011
8:58 pm
:0 :p ;p >:(
Just saying..
December 1st, 2011
9:44 pm
Everything about Cooperstown, NY? A big YES!
The baseball HOF? Major League Baseball should be ashamed.
Jim K
December 1st, 2011
10:26 pm
Dale Murphy had six years of Hall of Fame cailber play, no more. In no other full season did he ever hit .280, drive in more than 85 runs, slug .480, or hit as many as 30 home runs. Look it up.
Murphy could not hit a low outside pitch after 1987, when he was 31 years old. When he was 32 hit hit .226 for the Braves; when he was 33, he hit .228. Halfway through the next year he was hitting .245 when — quick, make the deal — the Phillies offered us Jeff Parrett for him. Players who get traded for Jeff Parrett at age 34 are not HOF material.
Being a great guy and not doing drugs may earn you a place in Heaven, but not Cooperstown.
Charles
December 1st, 2011
10:33 pm
Raines doesn’t belong either. I always thought he was a great player until I saw Ken Burns
“Baseball” documentary showing Raines sliding into second with a vial of cocaine in his back pocket. If steroids don’t belong, neither does coke. No way Raines.
Chip
December 1st, 2011
11:52 pm
I agree with most of your selections, but disagree on Edgar Martinez. If the Hall is reserved for the best players, I can tell you that Edgar Martinez was one of the best players of his era. Pitchers hated seeing him. He was a disciplined, fantastic hitter. The guy was clutch. He did it without ‘roids.
Steroids Rule
December 2nd, 2011
8:17 am
How about a special section in the hall of fame for steroid users!!!
Rich T
December 2nd, 2011
8:49 am
Hey Jim K: Sandy Koufax is in the Hall of Fame, and he only had six strong years himself. Look it up.
Bobby Cox's Belly
December 2nd, 2011
10:00 am
Jeff, I disagree. I would put “users” in but also account for the era of the non-juiced era.
Here are my YES votes:
JEFF BAGWELL: One of the top 5 at his position. Amazing hitter, but also a great defender and basestealer.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bagweje01.shtml
BARRY LARKIN: Great hitting shortstop with defense and basestealing. He easily meets the SS standard.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/larkiba01.shtml
EDGAR MARTINEZ: Talk about one of the great pure hitters; homers, doubles, walks; he could do it all. Yes he was a DH, but other players are negative values by playing in the field.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/martied01.shtml
FRED MCGRIFF: I saw the Crime Dog is borderline but should get the nod. Very, very good for a long time.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mcgrifr01.shtml
MARK MCGWIRE: One of the best home run hitters ever; first in HR/AB. Look, he is one of the most exciting players ever, and maybe the most feared hitters ever up there with Ruth and Bonds.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mcgwima01.shtml
DALE MURPHY: Lacking in counting stats makes him borderline, but his prime was sustained and he was highly elite during it. He gets the nod; all around player too.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/murphda05.shtml
RAFAEL PALMEIRO: Actually never the best first basemen in his league, but his counting stats are tremendous. ONe of 4 players to have 3000 hits and 500 homers. A consistent powerhouse.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/palmera01.shtml
TIM RAINES: One of the best leadoff hitters ever, had the stolen bases but also the essential on base percentage and played great defense.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/raineti01.shtml
ALAN TRAMMELL: This shortstop was great all around and one of the best ever. I would rate him over contemporary Ozzie. His 1987 season was amazing.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/trammal01.shtml
LARRY WALKER: A supreme defender and supreme hitter. Was helped by Coors but did a lot of it on his own. Very, very exciting player and had all 5 tools.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/walkela01.shtml
That’s it for me. Morris was overrated due to wins. Mattingly had a shorter prime and was a first basement, so can’t be compared to Murph. Williams is close, but no cigar. Juan Gone was so poor on defense and baserunning and OBP even with roids(which I didn’t count).
nelson
December 2nd, 2011
11:06 am
who cares .. in truth that passes that have not signed anybody. now the marlins just make a change with sd by bell and us nothing, holding nothing more than prospects so let’s come up with something?
John in PA
December 2nd, 2011
1:27 pm
Jeff, why did my favorite non-Brave, Will Clark, not get more support?
15 seasons, 2176 hits, 284 HRs, 1205 RBI, .303 BA, and .333 BA in 117 postseason ABs, and no suspicion of PEDs.
Nelson
December 2nd, 2011
1:36 pm
Dear Santa: What the Braves need for Christmas is an i-Left, an i-Short with two i-Bats, and if it is not too much to ask also an i-Owner!!!!
Tom
December 2nd, 2011
4:36 pm
i’m someone that that believes when you retire either you were hof’er or not, guys careers don’t get better with age like wine.
Bill@TPA
December 5th, 2011
11:36 am
This is the kind of thing that makes me wish I could stop caring about the Hall of Fame entirely. You point out that Don Mattingly and Trammell have basically the same credentials (the differences are that Trammell played a more important position and was robbed of an MVP he deserved, while Mattingly was given one he didn’t, and oh yeah, that Trammell was just a much, much better player), yet vote for Mattingly but not Trammell. Most of the rest of it is based on whether you have a positive personal memory of the player, with cherry-picked statistics as a (really, really lame) post facto attempt to justify the pick. Edgar Martinez can’t make it in because he’s a “half player,” yet Lee Smith, who racked up those gaudy save totals by pitching 40-60 innings a year toward the end of his career, is worthy.
And of course the baseless suspicion about Bagwell is just disgusting, but I’m too fed up with that nonsense to even get into it.
So, overall, well done…
Lukehart80
December 5th, 2011
12:22 pm
If Edgar is only “half a player” because he didn’t play the field, shouldn’t Jack Morris only be half a player because he didn’t bat?
If you’re willing to turn steroids into a black and white issue, you should have far higher standards for whom you accuse of using.
You might be a fine journalist, but your arguments here are largely based on very weak logic and I think it’s a shame you have any say in which players are inducted into the Hall of Fame.
terence
December 5th, 2011
12:47 pm
This ballot is a crime against humanity. Not one shred of evidence linking Bagwell to PEDs ever. Not one. Get bent.
terence
December 5th, 2011
12:52 pm
Also, Smith gets a vote as a “non-dominant” closer but the DH is “half a position”? What kind of logic is that?
Bagwell is Easily a Hall of Famer « MLB Dirt
December 7th, 2011
8:33 am
[...] innocent. And a year ago The Common Man took their ideology and placed it on the writers. This year Jeff Schultz has started the trend again and TCM was all over [...]
Robert
December 7th, 2011
10:35 am
Well the veteran’s committee just made one of the most pathetic slections of all time.
Ron Santo was a very good baseball player. He belongs in the Cubws Hall of Fame for sure. But he was not Cooperstown material. And to this the fact that he got voted in almost a year to the day after he died, highlighting the fact that this was a pity vote – and you get one of the most pathetic selections of all time
The standard ploy for anyone campaigning for the Hall of Fame is to take the stance that they deserve it because some aspect of their career stat line compares favorably to a guy who already has a plaque
I propose the opposite stance. Try this. If your guy’s contribution to offense doesnt exceed that of Dick Allen, then why are you even bothering to apply? (For pitchers, make that Ron Guidry)
Ron frickin Santo – Who do we get next year? Keith Hernandez and Rico Carty?
Robert
December 7th, 2011
10:40 am
“If Pete Rose isn’t in the HOF then nobody should be. Shut the place down.”
No. Rose broke the one and only absolute commandment that the game makes to its players
Rose certainly had a HOF caliber playing career.
Rose’s real crime was that he did something that hurt the entire institution of baseball by doing something that keeps himself out of the HOF
Of the 7 billion or so human beings on Earth, the abolsute last ten in line for consideration for election into Cooperstown should be the 8 Black Sox, Pete Rose, and Bobby Cox
Robert
December 7th, 2011
10:52 am
By the way, I am reading a good book about Sandy Koufax. One little snippet really jumped out at me last night. The book is divided into chapters detailing his life story alternating with chapters that give an inning by inning account of his September 1965 perfect game. In one of these it is mentioned that playing in that game was a guy who had was spending some time during the day on the phone with his wife who had given birth to a son far away a couple of days previously. (I believe the player was Maury Wills, but I am not positive without the book in hand)
Anyway – the anecdote includes a comment from the author that ‘leaving the team in the middle of a tight pennant race was unthinkable’
What a CONCEPT! – Maybe someone could run this by a certain deer hunting 3rd baseman we all know
Robert
December 7th, 2011
11:00 am
“In my opinion, if Duke Snyder is a hall of famer, then Dale Murphy is as well. The Duke hit 9 more home runs and 77 more RBI’s then Dale, and had 1 more all star appearance (8 vs. 7). However, on most other categories, Dale has him beat”
The primary factor that should determine whether an eligible (as in, has his 10 years) guy who played offense belongs in the HOF should be – did he contribute to his teams’ offensive production during his regular season career to a degree that was in the truly exceptional class
The rest of the stuff (All-Stars, Gold Gloves, postseaon, individual moments of glory, the guy’s character and reputation) can enhance or detract from a HOF case, but cannot be the foundation of it.
Duke Snider had a career adjusted OPS of 140.
Dale Murphy had a career adjusted OPS of 121
This is on a scale where 100 represents an average ballplayer and every 10 points is supposed to represent a standard deviation
So, I dont know what stats you are referring to when you claim that there were many where Murphy exceeded Snider, but it’s plainly obvious that as regards the most important thing that determines whether a guy does or doesnt belong in the HOF, that Murphy isnt even in the same area code with Snider
Robert
December 7th, 2011
11:03 am
“In my opinion, if Duke Snyder is a hall of famer, then Dale Murphy is as well. The Duke hit 9 more home runs and 77 more RBI’s then Dale, and had 1 more all star appearance (8 vs. 7). However, on most other categories, Dale has him beat”
Duke Snider had a career adjusted OPS of 140
Dale Murphy had a career adjusted OPS of 121
Sustained excellence in contribution to offensive production has to be THE primary factor to consider in deciding whether an everyday player merits HOF induction
I dont know what stats you are referring to when you claim Murphy outachieves Snider, but in the one area that ought to be most important to the HOF, Dale Murphy (while two standard deviations above an average big leaguer) isnt even in the same area code as Duke Snider
Robert
December 7th, 2011
11:31 am
On page 3 there’s a guy whose says about Murphy that he is borderline but he’d vote him in on intangibles. This same guy says no to Mattingly
Well, my friend – Mattingly had the better career adjusted OPS and higher per season WAR than Murphy – Mattingly had an MVP, 6 AS’s and 9GG, to 2,7,and 5 for Murphy.
Bottom line – among Yankees fans it’s Mattingly to whom they;d give the nod based on intangibles while being perfectly ok with denying Murphy
The Dodgers fans will holler for Steve Garvey
Togers fans will nominate Norm Cash
And so on
Every franchise has this guy – Not only has the HOF set a bad precedent recently by inducting these guys in droves in recent years, but it started with the wrong guys – (Cash I can see, but Rice and Santo? Please)
Now – I WILL say this – There’s a point to be made that if Santo and Rice, then Murphy
But if Murphy – then Mattingly and Garvey
And it justs becomes too many guys
It’s the Hall of Fame, people, not the Hall of very good players who were heroes and role models to a generation of kids from a particular corner of the country who collected all their ballcards and think he was the specialest guy ever especially since there’s a story about how he once coached some dude’s middle school tiddlywinks team
Robert
December 7th, 2011
11:53 am
“Chipper is already being talked about with doubt”
The thing I have ever seen doubted about Chipper is whether he will be first ballot
“Sandy Koufax is in the Hall of Fame, and he only had six strong years himself”
Dale Murphy had a run of six years where he was arguably the second best player in the National League. Koufax six season run is one of the three or four best such runs by a pitcher EVER. There’s a difference
“It really baffles me that Ty Cobb is in the hall of fame yet Dale Murphy …. cant get in”
If you dont see the difference between Ty Cobb and Dale Murphy, I suggest you try switching to watching some game other than baseball
What I guarantee you is that if the same people that are writing these bits of antiwisdom were reading say a Yankees fan blog where the name Mattingly was substituted for Murphy, they’d be scoffing at the authors as biased homers.
A lot of people really liked Dale Murphy. And Murphy was a pretty good player. We get it.
Look at Murphy’s comps on baseball-reference.com.
One clear HOFer. One awful HOF selection. And several guys whose fans, like Murphy’s, keeping whining about their favorite guy isnt in Cooperstown
Robert
December 7th, 2011
12:24 pm
Someone asked why it is that the fans dont get to vote for the HOF.
Now, my first reaction was to think – scroll thru this blog and you’ll see why
Because would you give a guy a vote who thinks Tony Gwynn and Larry Walker had very similar career numbers? Or to a guy who cant tell Dale Murphy from Ty Cobb?
But then, you know what – give the fans the vote and what would happen if about 30 million idiots would work to cancel each other out. Two wrongs would prevent a wrong (i.e. – the Yankees fans for Mattingly and nay to Murphy and the Braves fans for Murphy but denying Mattingly would cancel – and neither would get in, which is the correct outcome)
Give the fans the vote and keep a 75% cutoff, and I guarantee you only the real elite guys would even stand a chance in Hades.
Robert
December 7th, 2011
12:29 pm
“BARRY LARKIN: Great hitting shortstop with defense and basestealing. He easily meets the SS standard”
The HOF standard? As in played in the majors for ten years and isnt banned from the game? Hello Blauser and Belliard
There is no other standard. The HOF never set parameters.
MM
December 8th, 2011
12:19 am
Two more for the list:
Skip Caray: Yes!!!
Tim McCarver: NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!