Poll: Who should get most blame for Braves’ collapse?
Here's two of your biggest targets: Derek Lowe and Fredi Gonzalez. (Curtis Compton/AJC)
I write this knowing that there’s still a very good chance the Braves (with Tim Hudson on the mound) will win tonight’s game against Philadelphia (which starts Joe Blanton) and at least force a one-game playoff for the wild card spot Thursday in St. Louis.
I write this knowing that if the Braves get into the playoffs, strange things have been known to happen in postseasons. And, seriously, it’s not like either potential divisional opponent, Milwaukee or Arizona, is some indestructible force.
Loading ...But as the Braves drag a four-game losing streak and 10-19 record over the past five weeks into the Phillies game, here’s the question: Who’s to blame for this collapse?
I’ve got my own feelings on this. But to be honest, I think I’m still in shock over the developments and, well, I’m still processing it all. A column will be forthcoming at some point. For now, I wanted to get your thoughts and post a poll on the topic.
I can’t list every player and team official. So I’ll just list a handful of candidates with a quick synopsis on each.
Here we go:
• Frank Wren: It’s his team. He built it. He made a solid move at the trade deadline for Michael Bourn, who has played well, but the Braves are only 26-26 with him in the lineup. So did Wren make the right move. Uggla looked like a good signing but results are mixed. There’s also the hangover over of the Derek Lowe and Kenshin Kawakami contracts, which has limited flexibility in moves.
• Fredi Gonzalez: He is the favorite whipping boy for a lot of folks. I’m not quite there yet. Gonzalez has made a ton of bold moves: taking Chipper Jones out of the No. 3 hole, benching Jason Heyward, changing lineups, shuffling batting orders. There’s only so much he can do. Starting Lowe on Tuesday obviously backfired in a major way. The flip side: You understand the concern of a manager starting his fourth rookie pitcher (Julio Teheran) in a pennant race. Then again, there’s this: It’s the manager’s job to get his team to play better. Obviously, that’s not happening right now.
• Larry Parrish: He is the new hitting coach. The Braves are not hitting. Many of you folks dumped on Terry Pendleton. So how do you feel about the job Parrish is doing?
• Derek Lowe: When Tommy Hanson and Jair Jurrjens went down with injuries, the Braves just needed Lowe to be halfway decent. Two more wins from Lowe and they’re not even in this position. But now he’s a mess.
• Dan Uggla: He’s back to his first-pitch, over-swinging, let-me-save-the-world-in-one-at-bat habits. Not good.
• Jason Heyward: He has been a major disappointment in year two, and the problems appear to go beyond him just having his swing messed up by injuries.
• Martin Prado: Personally, I think his season has hurt more than anything. Prado was Mr. Everything last season but this year has struggled, had some ailments and never got into rhythm.
• Brian McCann: He’s another guy who was counted on to be a major run producer. But clearly he is banged up. I debated even putting him on the list but he is this team’s potential cleanup hitter.
That’s it. You’ll notice I’m not listing Chipper Jones. If you want to discuss him below, that’s fine. But I’m not going to list him on the poll. I find it crazy that anybody would pin the team’s problems on him. He’s hitting .280 (No. 2 on the team) with 18 homers (No. 4) and 69 RBIs (No. 4). The man is 39 years old and being held together with duct tape. In terms of production, exactly what was it you expected?
OK, have at it. Who gets the most blame for what has been going on?
By Jeff Schultz
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699 comments Add your comment
Octavius
September 28th, 2011
3:35 pm
1. Fire Wren; way over his head and make the firing at a public hearing with whole town invited
2. Dump Loser Lowe
3. Linebink-out of there
4. Parrish-fired
5. Hinske-out of there; he can’t hit anymore
6. McCann-trade to AL (can’t catch/throw/run; his future is as a DH) for a big stick
7. Chipper-trade to AL (bad knees so his future is as a DH) for another big stick
8. Prado-takes over at third
9. Heyward–to winterball, then to Gwinnett until he learns to hit
Big Wally
September 28th, 2011
3:37 pm
At least the torture will be over tonight.
ChillyMutt
September 28th, 2011
3:38 pm
ROFLMAO at gfc.
jb
September 28th, 2011
3:39 pm
GFC_Cause he’s hitting less than Heyward.? J-H 223 ba is better than JC-313..lol.. coming of the bench once a week is not like starting.
The Buck starts and stops with Mr.Wren and The Manager Fredi G……Both need to go!
Jay Dubu
September 28th, 2011
3:39 pm
Jeff,
Liberty Media is to blame!!!!!
But since the Braves’ Brass said they were not given any salary cap restrictions from Liberty Media, the Braves Front Office is to blame.
On the field, the credit, or blame, as you put it goes to the following:
Chipper is in there too. Being 39 is no excuse. He’s on the roster, and expected to perform. There aren’t any financial concessions being made, because he’s 39, so why make performance concessions?
The offense has been so much less than expected all season long until it forced Fredi to use the pitchers in an unconventional way. O’Flaherty, Venters and Kimbrel had to be used for every game in which the Braves had a 1 – 3 run lead, because the other pitchers failed to hold the lead more often than not.
The Braves offense has been so sluggish all season, until most of their games, in the first half anyway, were 1 – 3 affairs, and many went into extra innings. It was obvious that at the rate the bullpen was being used, that they were going to wear down.
Couple those things together, and the majority of the blame should be credited to Fran Wren & Fredi Gonzalez.
Larry Parrish – What is the Braves’ approach at the plate? What is the identity of this team offensively? What hitter on this roster did he help to get better? Heck, what hitter on this roster did he help keep pace with prior performance levels?
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
3:39 pm
@Whereisconstanza, yeah don’t take my arguing with you personally. I disagree with you and it may be that neither of us will ever convince the other. Doesn’t matter all that much. I just feel that Heyward has taken on a disproportionate amount of blame. A lot of that is the media’s fault for portraying someone so young as the savior. Acutally, in that way Frenchy was also up against it when he got off to the fast start and was proclaimed The Natural. They kind of set him and Heyward up for a fall.
But really, we probably wouldn’t be arguing at all if the Braves actually won a game every now and then.
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
3:41 pm
Tom G, Francoeur has averaged playing 155 games per year in his career. He played all 70 the year he was called up mid year, 162 in 2007 and 162 in 2007. Heyward is already broken down and is in his second year. His failing off began last July, not this May. It’s an ongoing issue for over a year. His production is low, cannot be counted on to play, and for the person saying no pressure for JF in Kansas City, try playing in a contract year for $2.5 million and now signed an extension for roughly $8 million per year. What pressure is Heyward under? Fear of failing? He hasn’t been in the lineup to feel pressure. Plus no one is depending on him for production, so why does he feel pressure?
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
3:43 pm
It’s ashame that Freddie Freeman, who is younger than Heyward isn’t feeling all that pressure. Thank God for a kid who can keep his thoughts and hitting straight. What an asset his has been.
Fols
September 28th, 2011
3:43 pm
I blame Julio Franco……cause the man can still hit and he’s nowhere to be found.
Robert
September 28th, 2011
3:43 pm
“It’s like they are trying to fix the thing that made him a top prospect in the first place”
Exactly. The thing that set Heyward apart at age 20 was NOT how hard he hit the ball. It was his plate discipline. And then Cox told him that was wrong to be patient at the plate. Since then, he is a .220 hitter – cuz pitchers know he will be overaggressive and they dont have to throw him strikes to get him out
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
3:45 pm
Detroit, Just look at the comparison I posted between JF and McCann. You might find that interesting.
Ryan
September 28th, 2011
3:45 pm
Fire Fredi! Bobby V is out there. Hell of a manager. Fredi has been fired from one team already, he’s not the right fit for this team.
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
3:45 pm
Freeman’s WAR is lower than Heyward’s in 2011. Just sayin’ (but already regretting having said it).
BullDogMike
September 28th, 2011
3:46 pm
I’m sorry , but I will have to blame this on none other than George W. Bush.
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
3:46 pm
I saw that and again, McCann blows Francoeur away with OBP, the more important stat. And replacement level is much higher in an outfield corner than catcher so you can’t make that comparison without adjusting for position.
Jay Dubu
September 28th, 2011
3:46 pm
If the Red Sox miss the playoffs, they’ll make major changes. And they’ve won two championships with thier front office and coaching staff, since the Braves last won or participated in one. But the Braves will stay the course, and change very little.
Tom G
September 28th, 2011
3:48 pm
RWGweed@3:22 – Best move Braves could make, too bad this is not girl’s softball!! But a very good idea!!
Robert
September 28th, 2011
3:48 pm
“He’s on the roster, and expected to perform”
Not really. Family comes first. I wonder if Chipper will play today or if he will decide it’s a nice day to go to the zoo with the kids
M10
September 28th, 2011
3:48 pm
I wonder what you guys are going to say nxt year when the league starts making ajustments to F.Freeman your gonna wanna get rid of him just like Heyward thats insane.No doubt its coming.
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
3:48 pm
@Whereisconstanza, enjoyed the debate. Seriously, enjoyed it and no hard feelings on this end. But I’m out of here. Hope the Braves win tonight despite themselves.
Joseph F. McNulty
September 28th, 2011
3:49 pm
There is enough blame for all. You can count the team’s weaknesses: (1) no middle relief, which led to the short-relief eventually becoming overworked; (2) no power or consistent offense. Starting pitching kept them in the race until injuries killed them down the stretch. When the starting pitching went, it took the team with it. Rookies had to be put in as stopgaps, which meant that the manager had to get into the short-relief in the sixth inning or earlier. It was hoped that with such bad middle relief, the team could get by with short-relief on an inning-by-inning basis. As a result, the short-relief was used every night and eventually became overworked. If TP was blamed for the team’s offensive troubles last year and as a result got fired as hitting coach, then Lance Parrish must take some of the blame THIS year for the team’s WEAKER offense. Lowe, of course, has become a disaster, and has failed to be the “innings eater” that justified his heavy contract. He has only been a success compared to Kawakami (alas). But the primary blame has to go on Frank Wren, who built the team. It was obvious to me in spring training that this team, at best, had subpar hitting, and would only go as far as it pitching took it. Once the Phillies — a team with strong hitting and questionable pitching — signed Cliff Lee and Roy Oswalt, it was apparent that the Braves could not win the East. As a result of the big contrcts to guys who did not really produce, when Wren went out for a bat this year, he ended up with Michael Bourn, a fine player, but not the power bat the term needed and a player who has really NOT made a difference. One has to assume that there will be many new faces on the team next spring. The team had better find a way to sign Prince Fielder. This team has suffered a power failure, and it cannot play successful “small ball” with weak hitting. Hudson better throw a shutout tonight if the Braves are to win.
eastbound and down
September 28th, 2011
3:49 pm
Fredi should take the blame. He should have considered a 4 man rotation or started Teheran. He has tried to ruin Venters and Kimbrel’s arms. (one of the Washington Nationals annoucers made an astute observation about the number of games they have pitched, “this isn’t a video game.”)
bourntobeabrave
September 28th, 2011
3:49 pm
diaz is starting tonight against a RIGHTY? no hinske, constanza, or (gulp) heyward? WTF FREDI?! fredi has truly lost his mind—if he even has one. the sooner he is out the better
Robert
September 28th, 2011
3:49 pm
“Bobby V is out there”
There’s only three names that I can think of where Bobby Cox could engage in a battle of wits and not be hopelessly outclassed
Bobby Valentine is one of the three
Lamar
September 28th, 2011
3:50 pm
I watched the Phillies and Braves all year.Phillis wanted it from game one.Braves would just hag there heads and pout.
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
3:50 pm
Freeman has played in 14 more games, hit 3 more HR, 4 more rbi’s, hit 13 more dbls and this is for a #6 or #7 hitter that for one was known for his hitting line drives and singles than HR’s and RBI. Plus he just may win the Gold Glove at first base in his rookie year.
Tom G
September 28th, 2011
3:51 pm
Fire Detroit Brave!! Just kidding!! Do you think you know anything about football, just askin also? Does OBP count also in football??
I Blame...
September 28th, 2011
3:51 pm
Republicans.
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
3:52 pm
Diaz starting? What is Freddi trying to do? Get fired and try to get the White Sox job?
Mozelle's
September 28th, 2011
3:52 pm
WhereisConstanza,
You can’t seriously make comparison between McCann and Fancouer. Besides the overall large gap in OBP and positional differences, Francouer has added little to no value to any of his teams since 2007. I don’t hate him or anything, but….
McCann is one of the best players at his position in the league and Francouer is one of the worst players in the league who still good enough to start.
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?playerid2=4810&playerid3=4792&playerid4=&playerid5=
GBR
September 28th, 2011
3:52 pm
The best thing that could happen to the Braves would be for Liberty Mutual to sell them.
Robert
September 28th, 2011
3:52 pm
“He should have considered a 4 man rotation or started Teheran”
A 4 man rotation wouldve caused the other guys in the rotation to take that much more wear and tear and be that much more likely to break down
Given a choice of Derek Lowe and Teheran, down the stretch I go with Lowe
Derek Lowe has on occasion been able to win ballgames even when he doesnt have his best stuff
Teheran hasnt shown that he can win at the big league level even when he has his best stuff
Having to bet on Lowe was unfortunate. And it wasnt a good bet. But it was a better bet than Teheran
Gimpah & McError
September 28th, 2011
3:55 pm
Shultz, you should’ve added (103 steals given up) beside McCann’s name. So, to be fair I’m going to stack the deck against him!
ExBraves Fan
September 28th, 2011
3:56 pm
Matt r: You are the photo of an idiot! Pure and simple, the main idiot on this page. How does it feel to make the most stupid comment on the page? Like an idiot? I thought so.
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
3:56 pm
Mozelle, You can’t read stats huh? No matter how you want to spin it, Francoeur on this team would be a GREAT upgrade to what we have. He produces year after year, has one of the BEST arms in baseball, (leads AL in assit in the position this year) and produces about as much as McCann has over the past 6 weeks. Yeah, I know he is hurt but don’t try to say Franceour is one of the worst, you make yourself look stupid.
Tim D
September 28th, 2011
3:57 pm
Again this collapse falls squarely on the offense. Has D Lowe been bad? Hell yeah but most of us say this coming except Freddi and his blind loyalty. But back to the offense. It’s entirely their fault 1-8. At first I thought it was just bad luck that guys weren’t hitting with runners on base but I realized after the 2nd game of the Nats series that this offense had a “I want to be the Hero” mentality and not a team mentality. Instead of being patient at the plate and look for one good pitch to drive, everyone is swinging for the fences and trying to be the guy that hits the big HR to lift the pressure off. I give the braves a 10% chance of winning tonight. It would be 0 but as a Braves fan I have the same blind loyalty that Freddi G has.
Hedley Lamarr
September 28th, 2011
3:59 pm
Regardless of what is debated here and on other blogs, it will be interesting to see who is ultimately held accountable for the team’s collapse.
Gimpah & McError
September 28th, 2011
4:01 pm
Ah, stacking the deck is too much work..
jb
September 28th, 2011
4:02 pm
Joe Torre is waiting on the phone to ring!
seabass
September 28th, 2011
4:02 pm
Wheres the Fredi Gonzalas one for pitching Lowe. They absolutely suck eggs. I may not ever watch them again even if they make the dang playoffs.
Frank, Fredit, Frank, Fredi, Frank, Fredi
September 28th, 2011
4:03 pm
Frank and then Fredi – neither one know how to manage!!!!!
reality check
September 28th, 2011
4:03 pm
Our hopes are pinned on an 105 loss Astro team. Becasue the Phillies sweep us and then as we back into a play off game we match up and loose to the Cards on Thursday.
DEAD and DONE
NO MORE PARRISH
September 28th, 2011
4:04 pm
Jay Dubu – Larry Parrish – What is the Braves’ approach at the plate? What is the identity of this team offensively? What hitter on this roster did he help to get better? Heck, what hitter on this roster did he help keep pace with prior performance levels?
WELL PUT SIR.
Ghost Rider
September 28th, 2011
4:05 pm
Coaches,Coaches,Coaches………….
jb
September 28th, 2011
4:05 pm
@3:51..are you better off today than 3 years ago…
WillieWog
September 28th, 2011
4:06 pm
Ryan Roberts for Arizona, what Chipper did for the Braves, for less than 500K. So don’t put the “Future Hall of Famer” on a pedastal for this season.
Career is a different story, but we’re talking about this season.
Mozelle's
September 28th, 2011
4:07 pm
WhereisConstanza,
I can obviously read stats, just like you. But unlike you I understand the meaning of stats. Since 2005, his first year in the league he has posted a 11.1 WAR. That’s good for 3rd worst among player’s with 1000 games or about 4000 PA. WAR values offense, defense, arm strength and position. (He’s beating out Huff and Dunn if you were curious)
I’ll admit there is some value in his ability to play a lot of games per year, but that’s basically what I’m saying, he’s one of the worst players who is still good enough to keep getting starts. One of the worst everyday players in the league.
Mozelle's
September 28th, 2011
4:09 pm
Mccann sits at 25.1 WAR since 2005. That’s good for second among catchers and 28 among all players during that time period.
Bravehomey
September 28th, 2011
4:10 pm
Maybe their jerseys are catching and tugging on their nipple-rings.
Heyward grounds out to second
September 28th, 2011
4:11 pm
In order:
Fredi
Wren
Lowe
Heyward
Prado
Parrish
McCann
JJ
Hanson
Uggla despite his struggles this season, put up strong numbers overall in the categories that we brought him over here to produce in. He carried us in August.
I think regardless, things need to be looked at and adjusted and perhaps changed in the offseason. This scenario SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING!
Fredi’s done a real bad job managing in certain spots this year. He’s impulsive and doesn’t think things through. He also allowed Lowe to continue pitching. I think once it got to 9-14, you kind of have to pull the plug.
It was a foregone conclusion we’d lose that game yesterday solely because of him, even if the offense didn’t produce.