Poll: Who should get most blame for Braves’ collapse?
Here's two of your biggest targets: Derek Lowe and Fredi Gonzalez. (Curtis Compton/AJC)
I write this knowing that there’s still a very good chance the Braves (with Tim Hudson on the mound) will win tonight’s game against Philadelphia (which starts Joe Blanton) and at least force a one-game playoff for the wild card spot Thursday in St. Louis.
I write this knowing that if the Braves get into the playoffs, strange things have been known to happen in postseasons. And, seriously, it’s not like either potential divisional opponent, Milwaukee or Arizona, is some indestructible force.
Loading ...But as the Braves drag a four-game losing streak and 10-19 record over the past five weeks into the Phillies game, here’s the question: Who’s to blame for this collapse?
I’ve got my own feelings on this. But to be honest, I think I’m still in shock over the developments and, well, I’m still processing it all. A column will be forthcoming at some point. For now, I wanted to get your thoughts and post a poll on the topic.
I can’t list every player and team official. So I’ll just list a handful of candidates with a quick synopsis on each.
Here we go:
• Frank Wren: It’s his team. He built it. He made a solid move at the trade deadline for Michael Bourn, who has played well, but the Braves are only 26-26 with him in the lineup. So did Wren make the right move. Uggla looked like a good signing but results are mixed. There’s also the hangover over of the Derek Lowe and Kenshin Kawakami contracts, which has limited flexibility in moves.
• Fredi Gonzalez: He is the favorite whipping boy for a lot of folks. I’m not quite there yet. Gonzalez has made a ton of bold moves: taking Chipper Jones out of the No. 3 hole, benching Jason Heyward, changing lineups, shuffling batting orders. There’s only so much he can do. Starting Lowe on Tuesday obviously backfired in a major way. The flip side: You understand the concern of a manager starting his fourth rookie pitcher (Julio Teheran) in a pennant race. Then again, there’s this: It’s the manager’s job to get his team to play better. Obviously, that’s not happening right now.
• Larry Parrish: He is the new hitting coach. The Braves are not hitting. Many of you folks dumped on Terry Pendleton. So how do you feel about the job Parrish is doing?
• Derek Lowe: When Tommy Hanson and Jair Jurrjens went down with injuries, the Braves just needed Lowe to be halfway decent. Two more wins from Lowe and they’re not even in this position. But now he’s a mess.
• Dan Uggla: He’s back to his first-pitch, over-swinging, let-me-save-the-world-in-one-at-bat habits. Not good.
• Jason Heyward: He has been a major disappointment in year two, and the problems appear to go beyond him just having his swing messed up by injuries.
• Martin Prado: Personally, I think his season has hurt more than anything. Prado was Mr. Everything last season but this year has struggled, had some ailments and never got into rhythm.
• Brian McCann: He’s another guy who was counted on to be a major run producer. But clearly he is banged up. I debated even putting him on the list but he is this team’s potential cleanup hitter.
That’s it. You’ll notice I’m not listing Chipper Jones. If you want to discuss him below, that’s fine. But I’m not going to list him on the poll. I find it crazy that anybody would pin the team’s problems on him. He’s hitting .280 (No. 2 on the team) with 18 homers (No. 4) and 69 RBIs (No. 4). The man is 39 years old and being held together with duct tape. In terms of production, exactly what was it you expected?
OK, have at it. Who gets the most blame for what has been going on?
By Jeff Schultz
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699 comments Add your comment
J-man
September 28th, 2011
2:35 pm
TomG – Francoeur is a wildly inconsistent player who hits lefties well and every 2 or 3 seasons hits righties well enough to justify being an everyday player. However, most of the time he needs to be a platoon guy. Unlike Matt Diaz, who is really and truly just happy to be in the big leagues, Francoeur is a similar platoon guy who cannot accept the reality that he is just not a very good player. Don’t worry, next season he’ll be back to being bad. He got traded because finally Cox had enough and basically wasn’t going to play him any more. Francoeur has an ego the size of Texas and while his teammates and mangers have liked him, he hasn’t had a good relationship with his front offices because of the ego. Francoeur got traded during a period where he simply couldn’t beg his way to a hit. He was kind of infamous for making a ridiculous statement about how walking (a skill he lacks) wasn’t important. He is supremely undisciplined at the plate. Francoeur is having a typical “age 27″ big season and if KC is dumb enough to sign him to an expensive and lengthy contract this winter, they’ll regret it.
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
2:36 pm
Robert, Chipper is making 12 million and he is the ONLY one in the lineup you can depend on.
UF in a mirror is FU
September 28th, 2011
2:37 pm
Just ask yourself this question, what would the Phillies record be if Lee and Halliday only pitched a half of the season?
Prado's NOT a 3rd baseman
September 28th, 2011
2:37 pm
Milli Vanilli says ” blame it on the rain” hahaha & No I cant play 3rd I bad with glove
Robert
September 28th, 2011
2:37 pm
I can say this. If Bobby Cox had been managing, we wouldnt be experiencing this heartache.
See – I said something positive about Bobby Cox
screwball
September 28th, 2011
2:38 pm
Braves will make the post season, and win!! A fan is only good when he’s cheering.
Kraig
September 28th, 2011
2:38 pm
Chipper IS the problem. Wait. Hear me out. What we have here is the ‘cork’ effect. Not the stuffed bat kind, I wish, but the kind of cork that bottles up everything and everyone behind it. Dominique Wilkins was a cork at UGA, and when he left, the team no longer looked to him to be savior, they realized it was on them, and they got to the final four. Dale Murphy, cork-effect. Once we made the tough call on him, David Justice stepped in and up, and the team was forced to step up. There are countless other examples that have occured over the years.
I am not saying a team’s super star will always be a cork, but there comes a point when that person is the tallest pigmy in the room, and at that point, it has to be addressed, delicately, but through retirement. Unless Chipper gives permission to this team to play without him, he will continue to hold it back.
Robert
September 28th, 2011
2:38 pm
“Robert, Chipper is making 12 million ”
As I said, he fell short on leadership expectations by about 17 million
Phatty
September 28th, 2011
2:39 pm
Lowe – for what he is paid a lot better is expected of him… He has consistently let the team down.
Buzziswiser
September 28th, 2011
2:39 pm
D. Lowe – For $15M he should be 17-9, not 9-17, that would put the Braves 4 back of the Phillies with the second best record in the NL and put the Wild Card to rest. With Hanson and JJ out, he needed to step up and responded with 0-5 in Sept. Granted he only received 9 runs in support for his last 7 starts, so the bats can share in the blame.
Nut Job
September 28th, 2011
2:41 pm
Kimbrel’s is 4.22
Hudson’s is 3.98
D-Lowe’s is 8.75 with a 1.99 WHIP (Fredi G. should be put into a mental institution if he starts a playoff game should we get there)
Beachy’s is 5.27
Minor 3.67
Delgado 2.57
Pretty clear the young guys, aside from Beachy, have held their own down the stretch. Vets are not getting it done. Tough call for Fredi G. go with the Vets who aren’t performing, or go with the young guys who are…looks like he is going with the Vets so he can’t be held accountable for putting young pitchers in the game with no experience.
I’m all about loyalty but come on. Say Lowe strained his hamstring and let Delgado or Minor have his spot in the playoff rotation. No way you can let him start a game. 87-88 mph fastballs with little movement and missed location don’t get the job done at the big league level anymore. Look at why Jurrjens went down…his velo dropped from 91-92 to 87-88 where he started getting ripped. Lowe is the same way…he is done…
Carl
September 28th, 2011
2:42 pm
When the Braves pay Chipper superstar money, they have to get more than a part-time player.
Nut Job
September 28th, 2011
2:42 pm
obv talking about ERA ^^^^^^^^
rpidge
September 28th, 2011
2:45 pm
Wren and Heyward first fand foremost. Wren for not making better player judgement and Heyward for not doing anything to correct his inept swing. Remember when Chipper praised the Phillies GM for his quality trades. Enough said.
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
2:45 pm
Kraig, If this team plays without Chipper, we wouldn’t have won 70 games. Plain and simple. Chipper is the only consistent thing on this team. Even at 39 his numbers are better than McCann or almost the same. .278 Jones, .271 McCann, 18 HR Jones, 24 HR McCann, 69 rbi Jones, 71 ebi McCann. And who would you suggest play 3rd base? Error prone Brooks Conrad and Prado? Maybe we could put AAA player Hicks over there, maybe bring Bob Horner back? Give me a break. Prado and Conrad were responsible for about 8 errors at 3rd base in 3 games against SF last year. Yeah, that’s what we need.
jimmya
September 28th, 2011
2:47 pm
when did heyward hurt his shoulder sometimes before spring training to many players waiting on spring training to get in shape
What about Alex
September 28th, 2011
2:47 pm
I can’t believe you people placing the blame on a 2nd year player? If I recall correctly, Jason was doing just fine until the likes of Chipper and others started complaining about the # of pitches he took. He was more selective last year. Also, has everyone forgotten about Alex Gonzales? He has been awful since day one this year. How many times has he come up to bat with RISP and struck out. He couldn’t even move a runner over when we needed him to. And yesterday, he forces Fredi to go to the bench in the first inning. If you’re hurt, say so and don’t make your manager have to sub in-let him know before the game. Hands down for me-It’s Alex Gonzales!!!
Kentavo
September 28th, 2011
2:47 pm
I disagree that this wouldn’t happen with Cox at the helm – I think it is very Coxian.
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
2:47 pm
@whereisconstanza, I can’t figure out if you’re for real or baiting. Maybe I’m taking the bait but Francoeur’s OBP’s starting in 2006 were .293, .338, .294, and .282 with the Braves (OPS was .742, .782, .653, and .634). That isn’t playable and even this disappointing season by Heyward trumps that. He then went to NY and posted .237/.293/.369. Again, not playable. In KC he’s at .285/.329/.476, which is playable but not exactly a star for a corner outfielder’s bat and given the other data that preceeded it not necessarily projectable. The fact that KC extended him says something about why the Royals are the Royals.
Braves #17 Fan
September 28th, 2011
2:48 pm
I selected Parrish in the poll. We’re number three in MLB for the least number of runs allowed, so our pitching is solid overall. However, we rank 21st in runs scored. Of the 16 NL teams, we rank 13th in batting average, and 14th in on-base percentage. Here are the shockers: We’re next to last in doubles and last in triples.
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
2:48 pm
Part time player in Chipper huh? Basically played with so much pain in his knee for a month that he had to miss the Allstar game and then came back within 2 weeks. He has played in 78% of the Braves games this year (125 out of 161) and has 450 ab’s. Heyward sits out for a month because of shoulder issues that isn’t diagnosed or treated. Oh, check out the 25million man in NY if you want a comparison on part time.
MitchC
September 28th, 2011
2:50 pm
I’ll be blaming Jeff Schultz, for jinxing us before the season is even over. Is that okay?
In all seriousness: Of the candidates you listed, I’d have to say Lowe. Yes, a starting pitcher only pitches every fifth day, but, the guy has been just awful all year. I dont think Gonzalez will be fired as manager in his first year, but..
Hopefully, we can pull this off, and this article will become hypothetical.
Tom G
September 28th, 2011
2:51 pm
Whereis Constanza@2:27,@2:35,@@2:36 – I agree with you exactly(it’s kinda scary) 110% on your comments! Chipper should probably be home resting but he’s on the field with his 40 year old body giving you everything he’s got left! Once again, that high-hop infield grounder he lost in the lights, NO ONE throws out that speedy runner under any circumstances! Speed never slumps, hitters do, never should have taken Constanza out! Just the threat forced opposing IF to play in close!
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
2:51 pm
DetroitBraves:
We were comparing Heyward to Francoeur with production. His batting average, hr and rbi’s far surpass Heyward, and if you want a GLARING comparison check his HR and RBI’s in his first and second and third years. Who cares about the OBP and the OPS if you are driving in runs.
DHD
September 28th, 2011
2:52 pm
I blame George Bush. He gets the blame for everything else.
KZGuy
September 28th, 2011
2:53 pm
The pitching carried this team the entire season until injuries took out half the starting rotation. The lack of hitting has been a problem all season long. If it wasn’t for the closers this team would be near the bottom and no where near a playoff contender.
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
2:53 pm
If the Braves get into the playoffs, they need speed at the top of the lineup and then let Chipper, McCann and Ugla come up behind them. God, how many 1 run hr’s have been hit by Chipper, Ugla and McCann this year?
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
2:54 pm
@Whereisconstanza, homers are nice but RBI are a context stat. Had Francoeur batted 8th he would have been the same player with less RBI. Had he batted 3rd he would have been the same player with more. You should care about OBP more than other statistics by far. It directly measures a players ability to avoid making an out, easily the most important offensive attribute. Homers are nice and a real skill, slugging in general really, but even that takes a back seat to not making outs.
stickman
September 28th, 2011
2:55 pm
we’ll its safe 2 say the braves make no in game batting ajustments, they fail 2 hit the ball the other way. every at bat seems to have them trying 2 wrap the ball around the foul pole. cant get runners in or over. blame the hitting coach 4 not telling and demanding jason heyward to step closer to the plate that it does not bite while u r batting. Lowe lost it 12 starts ago but no one on the staff seems 2 notice he is a walking lost 9-17 on a team 18 over 500 DUH do the math. blame goes to Hitting coach Head coach and the players themself 4 having such low batting I,Q’S And never taking the ball the other way. high school kids know to go with the pitch. no plate disipline equals not many runs.
Stiffneck
September 28th, 2011
2:55 pm
I blame Jeff Schultz and the fat lady singing tomight.
What about Alex
September 28th, 2011
2:55 pm
Hello people!!!! I will say it again-Alex Gonzales
rico carty
September 28th, 2011
2:55 pm
11:57 post said Lowe would be good at bartending. Not so sure. He couldn’t slide one down the bar without it being high and outside.
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
2:57 pm
@rico carty, plus Lowe has no arm strenght left. I would have already finished all the pretzels in the bowl before the beer actually got to me.
Bravehomey
September 28th, 2011
2:57 pm
The Braves of recent memory never have been good hitters…I blame the tomahawk on their uniform. It gives a false sense of the upper limit of the strike zone. I say remove the tomahawk from the jersey. After the Braves teams of the mid-60s did away w/ it, they made the NL playoffs in 1969.
HUH?
September 28th, 2011
2:57 pm
I blame Bush for most everything else – including the recession he gave us… but eh.. I’ll give the dumb as* a pass on the Braves
t-plunk
September 28th, 2011
2:57 pm
I blame MLB for allowing teams like the yankees phillies and red sox to spend like a democratically controlled congress and force small market teams to try and compete with has beens and prospects. This system is gross and needs to change- starting with salary caps being established and enforced.
Marvel Goose
September 28th, 2011
2:57 pm
Worst interview fail of the season: We have Fredi telling ESPN that “It Is What It Is”. The man has been watching too many Mark Richt losing game press conferences and picking up bad habits.
Robert
September 28th, 2011
2:58 pm
“I disagree that this wouldn’t happen with Cox at the helm ”
It wouldnt. If Cox were managing, any fan with brains wouldve given up hope the day he showed up at spring training. And right now, we’d be ten games back instead of tied for the wild card.
Ergo – no September heartache if Cox were managing
JD
September 28th, 2011
2:58 pm
Schultzie,
It’s definitely on DLowe and Fredi. DLowe needs to be dumped and swallow that salary. Fredi proved he’s not ready for the prime time.
Enter your comments here
September 28th, 2011
2:59 pm
I think we are going to see deja vu tonight just like last year, were gonna clinch on the last day of the season and the Cards will lose and we head to the wild card.
Remarkable
September 28th, 2011
2:59 pm
Over worked pitchers, lead to inflated scores, lead to hitters thinking they have to win what the pitcher lost, leads to hitting slumps, leads to losses. Freddi Gonzalez is to blame.
Jo Jo
September 28th, 2011
2:59 pm
Hey t-plunk – they spend because they are entitled to… what would you AS A RIGHT WING NUT… rather have? A socialist game of baseball with someone telling owners what they can spend?? LOL It takes someone left of you to show what a dummy you are!
what of it?
September 28th, 2011
3:00 pm
How about Snitker? how many runs has that guy left on base over the years?
Mldtown
September 28th, 2011
3:01 pm
“Wren – It’s the team that he put together.”
“Fredi – It’s the manager’s job to get his team to play better.”
“Parrish – He is the hitting coach.”
What insightful analyses! Of course that’s what blaming game is all about.
I blame September. If the season had ended in August, everybody would have gotten an award.
Robert
September 28th, 2011
3:02 pm
“If I recall correctly, Jason was doing just fine until the likes of Chipper and others started complaining about the # of pitches he took”
“and others” being idiot Bobby Cox
And then Chipper starts in about Jason’s swing
Jo Jo
September 28th, 2011
3:03 pm
What about the lighting? Oh – um…. nevermind
HAL
September 28th, 2011
3:03 pm
boun 1 heyward 1a
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
3:05 pm
@Robert, less famously the Braves had similar complaints about Kelly Johnson when he was there and he was a far better hitter before that. Unless you’re Pujols you are going to strikeout some if you run deep counts but you’ll also walk more and presumably get a better pitch to hit in many at-bats. I don’t know why they messed with him and I’ve also worried about them trying to fix something in Heyward that doesn’t need fixing. It’s like they are trying to fix the thing that made him a top prospect in the first place.
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
3:06 pm
Ok, Let’s say OBP by Heyward and Franceour:
Francoeur OBP .313 .433 slg .743 OPS .285 BA
Heyward OBP .319 .388 slg .707 OPS .226 BA
And I am sure you also know the HIGHER you AB’s will make someone with more have certain area’s of their OBP, SLG. OPS and BA lower. JF has 601 AB’s this year, Heyward 395, which makes Heywards numbers even worse than they appear. Heyward has either batted 2nd or 6th all year which should makes his RBI’s possibilties higher. The thing I want to bring up, why when all JF did in his first two FULL seasons was have 357 hits, drive in 208 and hit 48 HR and played in ALL 162 both years and we ran him out. JH has all of 233 hits, 32 HR and 114 rbi with on 269 games played in 2 years and we aren’t saying a thing about it.
Steven
September 28th, 2011
3:06 pm
Being a long time Braves fan I am ashamed to be a Braves fan today. To see such an EPIC collapse is an embarrassment as a fan. Who we blame? I voted for Lower because he did not lose 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 but 5 games in September. In all his starts he really didn’t even pitch well enough to give the team a chance to win. Please get rid of Lowe in the off season. I think next season with the rookies maturing Minor, Beachy, Delgado with Hudson, Hanson and JJ we will be better next year. With that said I throw Freddy in a close second for this dumpster fire. He has mis managed on several occasions not inserting pinch hitters when needed not allowing base runners to steal when needed etc. I am done ranting now.. I have lost hope in this team!