Poll: Who should get most blame for Braves’ collapse?
Here's two of your biggest targets: Derek Lowe and Fredi Gonzalez. (Curtis Compton/AJC)
I write this knowing that there’s still a very good chance the Braves (with Tim Hudson on the mound) will win tonight’s game against Philadelphia (which starts Joe Blanton) and at least force a one-game playoff for the wild card spot Thursday in St. Louis.
I write this knowing that if the Braves get into the playoffs, strange things have been known to happen in postseasons. And, seriously, it’s not like either potential divisional opponent, Milwaukee or Arizona, is some indestructible force.
Loading ...But as the Braves drag a four-game losing streak and 10-19 record over the past five weeks into the Phillies game, here’s the question: Who’s to blame for this collapse?
I’ve got my own feelings on this. But to be honest, I think I’m still in shock over the developments and, well, I’m still processing it all. A column will be forthcoming at some point. For now, I wanted to get your thoughts and post a poll on the topic.
I can’t list every player and team official. So I’ll just list a handful of candidates with a quick synopsis on each.
Here we go:
• Frank Wren: It’s his team. He built it. He made a solid move at the trade deadline for Michael Bourn, who has played well, but the Braves are only 26-26 with him in the lineup. So did Wren make the right move. Uggla looked like a good signing but results are mixed. There’s also the hangover over of the Derek Lowe and Kenshin Kawakami contracts, which has limited flexibility in moves.
• Fredi Gonzalez: He is the favorite whipping boy for a lot of folks. I’m not quite there yet. Gonzalez has made a ton of bold moves: taking Chipper Jones out of the No. 3 hole, benching Jason Heyward, changing lineups, shuffling batting orders. There’s only so much he can do. Starting Lowe on Tuesday obviously backfired in a major way. The flip side: You understand the concern of a manager starting his fourth rookie pitcher (Julio Teheran) in a pennant race. Then again, there’s this: It’s the manager’s job to get his team to play better. Obviously, that’s not happening right now.
• Larry Parrish: He is the new hitting coach. The Braves are not hitting. Many of you folks dumped on Terry Pendleton. So how do you feel about the job Parrish is doing?
• Derek Lowe: When Tommy Hanson and Jair Jurrjens went down with injuries, the Braves just needed Lowe to be halfway decent. Two more wins from Lowe and they’re not even in this position. But now he’s a mess.
• Dan Uggla: He’s back to his first-pitch, over-swinging, let-me-save-the-world-in-one-at-bat habits. Not good.
• Jason Heyward: He has been a major disappointment in year two, and the problems appear to go beyond him just having his swing messed up by injuries.
• Martin Prado: Personally, I think his season has hurt more than anything. Prado was Mr. Everything last season but this year has struggled, had some ailments and never got into rhythm.
• Brian McCann: He’s another guy who was counted on to be a major run producer. But clearly he is banged up. I debated even putting him on the list but he is this team’s potential cleanup hitter.
That’s it. You’ll notice I’m not listing Chipper Jones. If you want to discuss him below, that’s fine. But I’m not going to list him on the poll. I find it crazy that anybody would pin the team’s problems on him. He’s hitting .280 (No. 2 on the team) with 18 homers (No. 4) and 69 RBIs (No. 4). The man is 39 years old and being held together with duct tape. In terms of production, exactly what was it you expected?
OK, have at it. Who gets the most blame for what has been going on?
By Jeff Schultz
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699 comments Add your comment
Herschel Talker
September 28th, 2011
1:57 pm
If I see one more guy blame Hurricane Irene, I’m going to vomit. Get real people. Real teams just keep it going after those kinds of stoppages.
Jim
September 28th, 2011
1:59 pm
Love Chipper but his comment about liking our chances in the post season against the Phils is probably still hanging in their clubhouse…
Bravesbuddy
September 28th, 2011
1:59 pm
Who should get most of the blame for tne Braves collapse? This is one of the stupidest questions ever. Maybe the answer is sports writers who often do not know what they are talking about.
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
2:01 pm
@East Cobb BB, I actually disagree with Chipper calling out Heyward earlier this year. I have no way of knowing that this is true but it is my belief that he came back too soon from injury. If you look at his numbers from April until mid-May, when he succumbed to the shoulder injury, he was very much the player he was last year. After? Not so much. In hindsight, I would have much rather been without Heyward all together for a few more weeks and get the real Heyward back than have what we ended up with. But that’s all circumstantial and I could be wrong.
Mccartmk
September 28th, 2011
2:01 pm
Don’t you think we should wait until the end of the season to start pointing fingers?
Bravesbuddy
September 28th, 2011
2:02 pm
You win as a team and you lose as a team. No one person is ever responsible by himself. That is why it is a TEAm sport.
Bobby Cox
September 28th, 2011
2:02 pm
Fire Freddie!!!!
SG10
September 28th, 2011
2:03 pm
Here are the responsible persons (in that order).
1. D. Lowe (no need to say more)
2. Prado and McCann for being so awful down the stretch
3. Hudson for three bad starts when it mattered
3. Heyward for the sophomore slump but he is turning it around lately
4. F. Wren for spending so much money on Lowe and Kawakami when at best they could be no. 3 and 4 starters but these signings are roll of a dice anyway.. there is not a GM who has had bad signings.
5. D. Uggla – how often does he strike out with RISP
It doesn’s matter much if you have done well earlier if you can’t step up when your team needs you the most.
I wouldn’t blame F. Gonzalez..he has tried everything he could..The only thing could have been giving Ross few starts in the past few weeks when McCann was so awful or playing Hinske in the OF in place of Prado couple of times. In any case, in the end, it is for the players to perform. At ML level, role of managers is overrated, anyway. How else do you explain so many managers becoming legendary once they get a good team (Francona, Bochy, Manuels).
Braves Fan
September 28th, 2011
2:04 pm
GO BRAVES!!!!!! GO ASTROS!!! We have got to start hitting or we’ll never beat anyone! Our pitchers are going to have to start allowing the other teams to negative runs for us to get a win!
King Vitamin
September 28th, 2011
2:07 pm
I blame our team’s poor eyesight. It’s pretty obvious they can’t see the baseball good enough to hit it.
richie
September 28th, 2011
2:10 pm
You know, i think its Steve Bartmans fault
BaseballBuff
September 28th, 2011
2:11 pm
@detroitbraves Heyward has a .372 OBP for September? That’s pretty good for someone who looks as bad as he does. What’s your source for that number? Post a link if you can. What’s his September BA? BA with RISP? SOs? RBIs?
Gray Mule
September 28th, 2011
2:11 pm
Pitching. The guy who calls the game, the catcher, must take some of the blame
for their poor showing. Then, there is the Andrew Jones mentality, I gotta pull every
pitch, no mater what – - our all star catcher has fallen into that hole.
HUH?
September 28th, 2011
2:13 pm
Heyward? Most effective hitter? Um… HUH?
cdog
September 28th, 2011
2:16 pm
its has to start with the top, fredi gonzalez..when something is working you have to stick with it.the taking out constanza and putting prado back in the lineup disrupted the team chemistry.also,taking down pendelton unneccary hurt the team. and last,derek constantly being put in to pitch when he just doesn’t have it plius he doesn’t care because he knows he will be paid.gonzalez had his moments but they were by far, more bad than good.wasted non talented players such as eric hinski, brooks conrad has hurt tremendously.i use to blame chipper jones but to me, he has been the lone positive during the second half.he has sucked it up, stop taking sick days off, and played like the potential star he should have been but one players can’t win it all, when you have a team of no pride and uncaring so called players,it is what it is, losing.
Champdawgs
September 28th, 2011
2:16 pm
Should have hired Will Muschamp to manage, he may not know dick about baseball but he would at least have the team motivated to play. Watching the Braves right now is like watching paint dry. Dull and boreing. Play the game like you love it and not like Im just here for a big pay check
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
2:16 pm
@BaseballBuff, check his splits on ESPN. They’ll have the month-by-month. He has struck out 19 times in September, which is admittedly too much. Those other things I don’t care about. BA hasn’t been relevant since dinosaurs roamed the earth, RBI are a context stat, and RISP has been shown to regress to the player’s expected level over time – and I’m sure 64 at-bats in September is probably not enough time. That’s not even to say that his numbers are bad. I have no idea how many RBI he has or what the RISP is. I’m just saying they are meaningful metrics so I don’t care.
joe
September 28th, 2011
2:18 pm
It’s Coach Mark Richt’s fault. Injuries have really taken a toll on this team, but those are part of the game. You could argue that the slumps and hitting coach have been a big factor, but I think the injuries, esp to Hanson and JJ were what sent this team spiraling. They both went down in late Aug and that is when they stopped winning, except when Hudson or Beachy were on…
BaseballBuff
September 28th, 2011
2:19 pm
I’m going to tonight’s game and paln on booing the Braves off the field if they lose again. I expect to have company, at least from those few who hang around until the end of the game if we’re losing. Now, I await the diatribe from those sanctimonious “real” fans.
Felix
September 28th, 2011
2:19 pm
Yeah, fire FW first—–McOut is just one more example of another Wren disaster.
Rafael
September 28th, 2011
2:19 pm
Fredi Gonzalez has the same bad habits of Bobby and more. He play the same guys from the bullpen when he is winning and the same guys when he is winning, same as Bobby. At least Bobby has more trust in his players (young ones included) and gave guys a second chance, sometimes thirs and four making people crazy. But Fredi everytime Beachy or Minor had a bad inning he take them out inmediately. The same happened on Monday with Delgado. He is pitching good, don’t take him out if you are planning in getting the big trio. Or in a game like that why you don’t like the other managers and extend Oflaherty, Venters and Kimbrel a little bit? He used Christian Martinez who was banged the day before at DC? Just stupid. Hitting coaches are not going to hit for you so the hitting problemn is more for the players.
richie
September 28th, 2011
2:20 pm
The way i see it. As long as chipper is on the braves, (unless they dump prado) we cant get a young, talented, hitter to play left field. Sometimes you gotta know when its time. Can he still play? heck yea but the consistency is not there. Too injured to play too often.
Rafael
September 28th, 2011
2:20 pm
Mean loosing! and winning!
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
2:20 pm
Should also mention, so as to not appear to be too much of a Heyward apologist, that his slugging percentage even in September is unacceptable for a corner outfielder. Fortunately, on-base percentage is more important than slugging, if you have to choose, and since the comparison most often made in the comments section is between Heyward and Constanza, the bar for Heyward has been set exceedingly low.
Felix
September 28th, 2011
2:20 pm
I also can’t believe people put the blame on a hurricane. That is almost looney.
Gdawg
September 28th, 2011
2:21 pm
I blame Speedy Claxton
Rafael
September 28th, 2011
2:22 pm
Its time to let Chipper go! Prado is good in the infield!
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
2:22 pm
@BaseballBuff, looks like we disagree on some stuff but we’re on the same side. Give ‘em a boo from me. I’ll be booing my T.V.
BaseballBuff
September 28th, 2011
2:23 pm
@detroitbraves You surprise me. Good answer, even though I disagree.
what of it?
September 28th, 2011
2:25 pm
Fredi has a free pass from me this year. It’s his first year with the team, and we weren’t exactly a juggernaut last year at this time. Everyone forgets Cox finished dead last in ‘90, albeit a much worse team.
Still Wren takes the blame from me. He loves to handcuff the team to risky, long term, high dollar contracts, and but for the strength of the farm, we would be horrible. McCann is also a shrinking violet when it comes to the end of the season and post-season. We need a leader on the field. Chipper would fill this role but I view him more as a coach in terms of leadership. His dominance is behind him, sadly.
Nut Job
September 28th, 2011
2:25 pm
Watching Heyward hit is so painful right now. Yes, he is getting on base some b/c of infield hits and walks (which is good, but not who you’d expect him to be this year) but he is a very easy out. Anything on the innner half of the plate will tie him up. His swing is so long and he dives in so much…this is where smart pitchers are going to get a strike out. To get a quick ground out…pitchers are going away. Anything below the belt on the outer 1/3 will be rolled over and grounded softly to the right side or up the middle. There’s a reason why opposing defenses seem to have him play correctly every at bat…The only pitch he can hit is a pitch up in the zone and out over the plate. He has ZERO concept of hitting to the opposite field. When he is going good, he is hitting the ball the other way not trying to pull everything…Maybe McCann, Prado, and Chipper can get it back going tonight!
Kentavo
September 28th, 2011
2:25 pm
The only way you can blame Frank Wren is if you dissect his method of collecting hitters/players with impatient approaches at the plate and propensities for striking out and not being able to move runners over. But, wait, weren’t they more patient under Pendleton’s watch?
Let’s face it, the Braves have always been somewhat challenged on offense, even when loaded with big boppers, the offense would die in the post-season.
So, it’s gotta be something else, the way hitting is instructed in the organization.
On paper, this team should not suck at the plate.
Andy Vodopia
September 28th, 2011
2:25 pm
Jeff, I believe you are missing the two players that caused the collapse. If’s Jurgens and Hanson. If they don’t get injured we’re definitely in the play-offs. Add Moylan also but he’s not quite as important. But that has been the issue. As for not including Chipper, if you are counting Lowe’s contract you have to measure Chipper the same way. Is he producing $13M worth?
HUH?
September 28th, 2011
2:26 pm
I agree – Prado permanent third baseman… and get a semi-decent big bat out in left.
Tom G
September 28th, 2011
2:26 pm
Somebody, anybody please remind me. Why did we trade Franceour a few years ago, did he hit worst than JasonH this year? I know his fielding and arm strength was never the problem. That kid would run through a wall for you, I guess that came from his football mentality?
J-man
September 28th, 2011
2:26 pm
I would most blame someone not on the list – the owners. While there are certainly worse owners in baseball and Liberty Media isn’t even close to being the cheapest owners in MLB, the fact is that the Braves are a mid-market team with hard financial limits and that makes it difficult for Wren to compensate when he makes mistakes (Lowe and Kawakami). It also forces Wren to do a lot of questionable dumpster diving for players (Glaus, Ankiel, Wilson) in the hopes that he can get some guys on the decline to recapture a bit of their former glory.
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
2:27 pm
First all, the team was playing VERY well with Bourne at the top and Constanza at the bottom. Great speed helped produce runs. This is where I blame Freddie. The MANAGER decided to go back to a struggling (all year struggle) Jason Heyward. For reasons beyond me, the first of September Heyward was back in the lineup, making errors in the field, hitting NOTHING and all the while where did Constanza disappear to? Was it pressure by Wren to get Heyward back into the lineup? Why Diaz with his 0 homeruns and absolutely NO speed start when Heyward didn’t? Since Sept. 6 Constanza has exactly 10 AB’s? He is hitting .306 with 2 hr, 10 rbi and 7 sb. and 33 hits in 108 ab. Heyward, .226 14 hr and 42 rbi with 89 hits in 395 at bats. WHAT GIVES? Look back when the losing began and you will see Constanza was benched in favor of a player that has NO ability to get on base and an aged pickup outfielder. BLAME: Gonzalez and Wren!
Atlanta's about to catch Hell
September 28th, 2011
2:27 pm
It’s Steve Bartman’s fault. He’s also the reason for the recession.
BaseballBuff
September 28th, 2011
2:27 pm
@detroitbraves What I disagree with is that BA is meaningless, but I’m old school. Forgive me. Nevertheless, I do understand the concept of run production.
tdmorgan
September 28th, 2011
2:28 pm
Where is an option for injuries. Our top 2 pitchers have missed most of the post-all star break or tried to pitch through injuries during that time. Several of our top hitters have been hurt and never got back in rhythm (i.e. McCann, Prado, Chipper took a while at the beginning of the year (but has been phenomenal lately), Heyward (maybe?)
what of it?
September 28th, 2011
2:28 pm
@baseballbuff Heyward’s OPS is about .250 points higher than Diaz as well, and I think he should have the starting spot.
Another thing wren does is bring in quick fix mediocrity off of waivers after the trade deadline that really just end up creating more headaches for the manager than anything. It would be nice if we could just address needs in the offseason rather than adding a 2nd all-star second baseman and converting one to an outfielder.
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
2:30 pm
@HUH?, I wonder if Prado’s bat can play at third everyday. It played at second but now they have Uggla. I totally agree on left-field but I wonder if Prado isn’t better suited now that Uggla is around to filling the role Infante had last year.
Nut Job
September 28th, 2011
2:30 pm
Holy Cow! Venters has a 5.56 ERA in September
SG10
September 28th, 2011
2:32 pm
This makes me feel like watching Hurricane forecast.. for days we know it is coming over our town but we hope it will change direction..until it actually hits us. You feel helpless for things you can evacuate with you.
We have seen for weeks with every projection that eventually Braves will lose out..still kept hoping that they will change their direction and now we are here, right in the eye of the hurricane with the helpless feeling.
Robert
September 28th, 2011
2:32 pm
Why is Chipper Jones not on the list of choices?
The leader of a team set the example that it is ok to put elective family issues ahead of the team during a playoff drive.
That says it’s ok to treat the game as an avocation.
I have heard that it was fine with every guy in the clubhouse – that they all would’ve done it – that they all wouldve supported each other in it
If that’s true, then they are ALL amateurs in their attitude.
Amateurs dont win championships at this level.
I dont want to debate whether this is acceptable, whether it’s natural, or to hear anyone else’s views on family or on what Chipper did
All I am doing is telling you that given the attitude of the team, this result is not to be treated an unexpected.
You get out of life what you work hardest for
what of it?
September 28th, 2011
2:33 pm
Nut Job: and the highest number of innings pitched of any reliever, not exactly surprising he’s burned out now
richie
September 28th, 2011
2:33 pm
Be honest with me here guys. If, by some miraculous act of God we pull the season out of our asses and win/clinch tonight or win the one game playoff in St. Louis, what chance do we really have going into the playoffs. Not much. When you limp in you get your ass handed to you. Could we possibly beat the Dbacks? Ehh another act of God would be in order. We are too hurt and too futile on offense to make any sort of run. But on the other hand, stranger things have happened. I have hope, but its a diluted hope.
Blob Horner
September 28th, 2011
2:34 pm
I believe the loss of two of our top three starters coincides with the downfall. If we keep either of the two pitching close to their average production, then that would have set the table to move Lowe and some of his contract for either bullpen relief or a decent right handed power bat rental to platoon with Heyward. That senario easily allows the Braves to cruse into the playoffs, then make the next tweeks needed in the off season with most of the albatros contracts off the books. The goals; 2011 win wild card and get lucky,2012-overtake aging phillies, 2013-kick the Yankees to the curb.
Robert
September 28th, 2011
2:34 pm
“In terms of production, exactly what was it you expected?”
In terms of production, Chipper did as expected.
In terms of ATTITUDE andleadership and setting an example – he came about $17 million short of meeting expectations
WhereisConstanza
September 28th, 2011
2:35 pm
If we had Franceour instead of Heyward, we might not be in the position we are in. The kid drove in 100 runs 2 straight years for the Braves and in his worst season hit .239 and drove in 71 and he was ran out of town. Heyward isn’t half the player he is. Just so you know, Franceour’s stats with Kansas City this year:
.289 Batting Average (601 ab’s)
20 HR
87 RBI
47 doubles (led the American League)
4 triples
22 sb
And don’t say it’s because he plays for the Royals. He faces the toughest pitching in MLB in that league. Oh and to make you feel worse, he was 16 assits and a .986 fielding percentage this year in right field.