Poll: Who should get most blame for Braves’ collapse?
Here's two of your biggest targets: Derek Lowe and Fredi Gonzalez. (Curtis Compton/AJC)
I write this knowing that there’s still a very good chance the Braves (with Tim Hudson on the mound) will win tonight’s game against Philadelphia (which starts Joe Blanton) and at least force a one-game playoff for the wild card spot Thursday in St. Louis.
I write this knowing that if the Braves get into the playoffs, strange things have been known to happen in postseasons. And, seriously, it’s not like either potential divisional opponent, Milwaukee or Arizona, is some indestructible force.
Loading ...But as the Braves drag a four-game losing streak and 10-19 record over the past five weeks into the Phillies game, here’s the question: Who’s to blame for this collapse?
I’ve got my own feelings on this. But to be honest, I think I’m still in shock over the developments and, well, I’m still processing it all. A column will be forthcoming at some point. For now, I wanted to get your thoughts and post a poll on the topic.
I can’t list every player and team official. So I’ll just list a handful of candidates with a quick synopsis on each.
Here we go:
• Frank Wren: It’s his team. He built it. He made a solid move at the trade deadline for Michael Bourn, who has played well, but the Braves are only 26-26 with him in the lineup. So did Wren make the right move. Uggla looked like a good signing but results are mixed. There’s also the hangover over of the Derek Lowe and Kenshin Kawakami contracts, which has limited flexibility in moves.
• Fredi Gonzalez: He is the favorite whipping boy for a lot of folks. I’m not quite there yet. Gonzalez has made a ton of bold moves: taking Chipper Jones out of the No. 3 hole, benching Jason Heyward, changing lineups, shuffling batting orders. There’s only so much he can do. Starting Lowe on Tuesday obviously backfired in a major way. The flip side: You understand the concern of a manager starting his fourth rookie pitcher (Julio Teheran) in a pennant race. Then again, there’s this: It’s the manager’s job to get his team to play better. Obviously, that’s not happening right now.
• Larry Parrish: He is the new hitting coach. The Braves are not hitting. Many of you folks dumped on Terry Pendleton. So how do you feel about the job Parrish is doing?
• Derek Lowe: When Tommy Hanson and Jair Jurrjens went down with injuries, the Braves just needed Lowe to be halfway decent. Two more wins from Lowe and they’re not even in this position. But now he’s a mess.
• Dan Uggla: He’s back to his first-pitch, over-swinging, let-me-save-the-world-in-one-at-bat habits. Not good.
• Jason Heyward: He has been a major disappointment in year two, and the problems appear to go beyond him just having his swing messed up by injuries.
• Martin Prado: Personally, I think his season has hurt more than anything. Prado was Mr. Everything last season but this year has struggled, had some ailments and never got into rhythm.
• Brian McCann: He’s another guy who was counted on to be a major run producer. But clearly he is banged up. I debated even putting him on the list but he is this team’s potential cleanup hitter.
That’s it. You’ll notice I’m not listing Chipper Jones. If you want to discuss him below, that’s fine. But I’m not going to list him on the poll. I find it crazy that anybody would pin the team’s problems on him. He’s hitting .280 (No. 2 on the team) with 18 homers (No. 4) and 69 RBIs (No. 4). The man is 39 years old and being held together with duct tape. In terms of production, exactly what was it you expected?
OK, have at it. Who gets the most blame for what has been going on?
By Jeff Schultz
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699 comments Add your comment
pb
September 28th, 2011
1:28 pm
Braves One,
All I am trying to say is that it doesnt’t matter who gets the blame, the team or individual players.The collapse shouldn’t have happened. Blaming is sort of irrelevant at this point; just fix the problems if you can. But I think it is too late for that this season.
Skip
September 28th, 2011
1:28 pm
The guy that hired the Marlin reject and the Marlin reject.
Columbus
September 28th, 2011
1:29 pm
To answer your question, it was losing 2 ALL_STAR caliber starters and having to depend on rookies instead and the Lowe having the worst year of his career at the same time. Add Heyward to the equation with his countless blown RBI oppurtunities and there you go. If we had either a healthy Jurrgens or Hanson we would not be having this discussion.
At least this gets you off of UGA’s back fpr the last week. You did jump all on them immediately after the game while they were still in the showers after their first road game, a win in the SEC, against a desperate team. Did you overlook how great the DEFENSE played? You realize they have given up the 2nd least yards in the SEC? Wonder why? Wonder why OTHER newpapers in the state havent? Hmmmm.
Sonny Clusters
September 28th, 2011
1:29 pm
And while we’re finding fault and passing blame, let’s not forget the flu. Several times flu-like symptoms have evidenced themselves and caused players to miss playing time. Lowe had flu-like symptoms, McDowell, and of course, Chipper. Andruw used to have them in his Gold Club days. A ballplayer should never report to the ballpark after a night of incurring flu-like symptoms.
Mitchell
September 28th, 2011
1:31 pm
Larry Parrish: He is the new hitting coach. The Braves are not hitting. Many of you folks dumped on Terry Pendleton. So how do you feel about the job Parrish is doing?
Larry Parrish does not make me long for the days of Terry Pendleton.
It doesn’t work like that. When you’re below ground and then sink deeper, you don’t wish to get back to being below ground.
You want to get out of the hole you’re in.
They’ve both been bad. But it’s not personal.
This is a business after all, is it not? In a business you expect certain results. If you don’t get those results you make a change. You try to address the problem and resolve it.
There should be a statue of Terry Pendleton in front of Turner Field. If not for Lonnie freakin’ Smith, we would have won that World Series and TP would have been the hero.
That’s a damn shame.
I don’t want to see him lose a job as a person and have to move his family but this a business. It happens all the time. We’re trying to win games here.
Fortunately, Jason Heyward’s first inning Opening Day home run last year seemed set the tone for the entire 2010 season and the tone was, expect the unexpected. That ball was screaming all the way to the Braves bullpen Yes We Can.
It seemed to give everybody on the team the feeling that they could be the guy to do it too and mostly they did.
This year it seemed like nobody wanted to step up and be a leader on offense, so no one has.
Ultimately it comes down to the players. There’s no excuse for not winning more games than they did last year.
But if you’re Frank Wren, what are you thinking? You don’t let this go 161 games.
Abnerish
September 28th, 2011
1:32 pm
I would say this is an entire team implosion. Everyone has failed at one point or another down the stretch. Some are more to blame than others, of course, but everyone has contributed. Except maybe Hudson, but he’s not exactly been perfect either (not that he’s expected to).
Casey Stinkle
September 28th, 2011
1:32 pm
For all you people thinking Constanza was going to put this team over the top, well I know he has some speed, but after the first month he kind of quit hitting. Hard to steal first. I agree with another post that Heyward sat on the bench too long. It appears that after that, his confidence dropped big time. Way too many 220-230 hitters is the main fault.
JO JO
September 28th, 2011
1:33 pm
LOL – and the mold in the clubhouse… can’t forget that!!
Too tough
September 28th, 2011
1:33 pm
As a pro athelete, these fellas SHOULD be ASHAMED of their performace this season. Poor hitting all season. Poor decsions about who to put on the field. i.e. Constanza and Bourne were creating opportunities to score.( I know Constanza sprained his ankle, but, should have been brought right back in when it healed.) Freddie put all of his hopes in Heyward, Prado, and (Matt Diaz?”) TP was no worse a hitting coach than who we have now…Braves are a bunch of FEEBLE atheletes!
Brave B
September 28th, 2011
1:33 pm
Bring back bobby cox! Fredi can’t manage at this leve.
bronkelliott
September 28th, 2011
1:34 pm
Definitely the Manger big Freddi G. I was thinking the conditioning coaches & players themselves who have broken down and lost steam. That is why interchangeable parts on the team works well. Look at the Yankees in September and the Cardinals using no name players to fill in key roles at this time of year. How long can you stick McCann, Uggla, Prado Chipper & Freeman on a continual basis? Wise mangers now how to keep a team in flow through troubled times. Fresh legs can help with fresh arms. The breakdown in pitching is nobody’s fault but a wise manager would know not to use Lowe as a starter again… Too much loyalty & friendship does not always make for winners. Conflict can be good for a team. I envy Joe Madden of the rays.. Wish he was guiding this ship not Freddi G.
JO JO
September 28th, 2011
1:35 pm
I’d take Constanza’s production – offense and defense – over what we got with Heyward
Too tough
September 28th, 2011
1:36 pm
Something tells me Lowe may have a drinking prob…he looks weak and tired to me out there for he past several months…!
JO JO
September 28th, 2011
1:38 pm
I dont envy Joe Madden of the Rays…. I envy his PLAYERS!
harddogg
September 28th, 2011
1:39 pm
When a CEO of a large coporation fails he is fired. By Fredi Gonzalez. I still don’t understand how a manager can say to his pitchers no way you will pitch tonight. What are we saving them for????
Festus
September 28th, 2011
1:39 pm
I agree with what others have said about Costanza… why did he disappear? That is on Freddie. Crnkbt: you are way off. At the trade deadline our pitching was fine… everyone wanted him to trade pitching for a right handed power hitter. He made the best trade he could. Anybody who blames Chipper is an idiot…how about blaming the fans who whine constantly (even during the 14 year run) and do not show support for the team. Real Baseball towns(Boston, St. Louis etc.) support their team no matter what.
coach13
September 28th, 2011
1:39 pm
Jeff- not to mention CHipper is still in a top 5 or 6 offensive 3b. Outside of guys named Wright, Longoria, Rodriquez, and Beltre you’d be hard pressed to find a better hitting 3b.
Gonzalez gets the blame for pitching OVenterbrel with multi run leads citing the need to “stay fresh”. They can throw side sessions at 75% to “stay fresh”. That is where Freddi’s blame should stop.
He’s moved this lineup around a ton. These gusy are professionals.
Prado- big disappointment considered the year he had last year
Heyward- finishes 2nd in ROY voting and flopped this year. He makes Frenchy look like Dale Murphy.
Uggla- other than his month on fire he’s been a big disappointment. this season.
McCann- underperformed
Bourn- a .300 hitting leadoff man who steals 50 bases is not the problem.
It would help if our starters could go more than 5-6 innings a game too.
Dawg Tired
September 28th, 2011
1:39 pm
I agree Jo Jo… bronkelliott missed it… it’s about the players… I’d trade ours for theirs ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!
Keeping it Real
September 28th, 2011
1:40 pm
I have two. 1. Uggla. For all his accolades he is batting only 7 point higher than Heyward.You can’t have a veteran batting 0.235 in a power/RBI position. Andruw Jones had better numbers when he was sent packing. 2. Gonzalez. If you extrapolate Heywards numbers with the number of at bats he did not get, he would have more RBI’s and HR’s than Freeman. If the team is built on youth, you have to let the youth play.
pat
September 28th, 2011
1:40 pm
Enter your comments here
Felix
September 28th, 2011
1:41 pm
1. Fire Frank Wren first
2. Fire Parrish second
3. Get rid of Lowe and Linderflunk
4. Tell Brian to get in good enough shape to play past the all-star break
5. Demote Prado back to utility player
6. Jason on probation for one year and to spend the entire offseason working on his hitting with Chipper
7. Frodo (Fredi) on probation. The concern is ability to motivate-has done zip to fire this team up.
7. Get a big stick for the outfield
glacialspeed
September 28th, 2011
1:41 pm
Blame Liberty Media. They only view the Braves as a tax deduction, and the payroll allows for zero flexibility if things aren’t working out with a player. Players come and go, but the buck ultimately stops with the ownership.
bronkelliott
September 28th, 2011
1:41 pm
JO JO good word on the Rays Players. They are really making the manager proud. Unlike our failing stars in Atlanta.
Dawg Tired
September 28th, 2011
1:41 pm
Keeping it Real… you ain’t doin’ what your name says – Brothah! YOus gots too much bling bro!
juvenal
September 28th, 2011
1:42 pm
cernoff, for announcing months ago it was over…….
pat
September 28th, 2011
1:43 pm
I can’t vote, there’s to much blame to go around. Ultimately I blame ownership. We’re hamstrung with putting together a team. But somethings are just inexplicable. Look at the Red Sox, they have a rockin’ team and they blew it too.
Good news is we are the double cursed Cubs. Adding the Bartman curse to their list will ensure they will never see a World Series as long as I live. Given the behavior I have seen by their fans in Atlanta, that’s fine with me…
The Cubs aren’t lovable, they’re just losers….
Robert
September 28th, 2011
1:44 pm
Jeff,
Nice try on the buck stops here sentiment (Wren, Gonzalez), but up until 4-5 weeks ago, Braves were sitting pretty with a huge lead on the wildcard competition and had what, the fourth best record in baseball? Up to that point, management looked brilliant, no?
So, here’s a real argument for the reasons behind the collapse: Heyward Lowe, and the loss of Jurrens and Hanson. With emphasis on the very subpar play of Heyward and Lowe. Uggla’s first half woes notwithstanding, he’s produced the best offense for the team, the team that had that insurmountable lead just a few weeks ago.
Nut Job
September 28th, 2011
1:45 pm
Here is why the Braves have collapsed…
Batting Averages in September…
McCann – .200 (.182 before a few hits last night)
Uggla – .237 (right on his season average…pretty pitiful for the money he is making)
Freeman – .227 (for the span of the minor league season he was great…big boy season has brought him back to reality)
Bourn – .257 (.298 OBP LOL) – can’t steal if you’re not on base
Constanza – o wait…he hit over .300 during his significant playing time but he’s not getting paid or isn’t considered the poster child of the Braves so he can’t play in September apparently…who needs speed, we only went what…14-8 with him in the line up. What have we done since he was taken out and never heard from again???
Prado – .240 (.219 in August) what an awful year…having him in the 2 spot is painful to watch every night…maybe the bomb will get him going
A Gonz – .367 (obviously he isn’t playing tonight…sad when he’s the guy you look forward to coming up to the plate) (calf must be pretty badly strained to miss a game like tonight…)
Chipper – .284 (.359 in August) showing why he is a HOF’er
Don’t get me started on ERA for pitchers…Batting averages and BA’s with runners in scoring position is why we are sliding. Its no one person. Its not one person…its about the team not performing. Stop blaming coaches. Coaches in the big leagues do very little coaching. They all know what to do. Its a matter of going out and performing on a daily basis. St. Louis is performing…We are not. That can all change tonight though! Go BRAVES!!!!
pat
September 28th, 2011
1:45 pm
glacial speed I agree, Liberty has been holding this team hostage for the past 8 years or so. Please sell us to a Braves fan. If I had the money, I’d buy them.
Einstein
September 28th, 2011
1:46 pm
This was a team effort and, in my opinion, was mostly due to injuries. Nonetheless, here’s how I rank the answer to THE COLLAPSE:
1. Biggest impact: Losing Hanson & Jurrjens.
2. Next: McCann’s injury, struggling at the plate after return.
3. Next: Heyward, possibly sophomore jinx?
4. Finally, if not most importantly: HURRICANE IRENE!!! Seriously.
The 2-game Irene disturbance (games cancelled at Mets Aug. 27th & 28th) plus Monday’s day off (Aug 29th) took the steam out of a major Braves run. The Braves went from hot to cold: In the 19 games before Irene & the 3-day layoff, the Braves were 14 – 5; they were 12 – 3 in the 15 games pre-Irene. Post Irene: 10 – 18. Momentum can play a huge roll in many sports, especially at crunch time ……..
Prado's NOT a 3rd baseman
September 28th, 2011
1:46 pm
Sub par years from Prado, McCann, & Heyward, overuse of big 3 in pen, loss of 2 starters. all are a good reason for THE COLLAPSE! Chipper & Freddie better than expected, Bourn is a keeper,Uggla about as expected. Lowe outta here to Yanks or Bosox next year, McOut is history, so addition by subtraction looks good, next year is Chippers last no doubt, Heyward is on hot seat next year for his job! Go Bravos wait till next year…………right!
Herschel Talker
September 28th, 2011
1:46 pm
M’ville Mayhem at 1:02:
Well said.
HT
atlpaddy
September 28th, 2011
1:47 pm
Where have you gone Dr. Kevorkian? Braves Country turns it’s dying eyes to you…boo hoo hoo!
Heah Me Now
September 28th, 2011
1:48 pm
TAKE OUT HEYWARD AND INSERT CONSTANZA! I’ts probably too little too late – but give it a try… That Oak Tree of a right fielder can’t hit the ball out of the infield!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
theJakester
September 28th, 2011
1:49 pm
Uh.. has everyone forgotten that we’ve lost 2/5 of our starting rotation this month…? Perhaps that has had just a SLIGHT bit of influence on our struggles?
Abnerish
September 28th, 2011
1:49 pm
And blaming the hitting coach is ridiculous. Hitting is an individual act and the hitting coach is nothing more than a person that is available for the players to use as a resource to help them with their swings. The player has to 1) agree with the coach’s ideas, and 2) execute those ideas in the game. It’s like a swing coach in golf. Is Sean Foley a terrible swing coach because Tiger can’t win a golf tournament? Of course not. Sean Foley has plenty of very successful “students” on the PGA Tour. The blame here falls almost entirely on the players.
G
September 28th, 2011
1:50 pm
Jeff I don’t see your name on here. You know you are to blame for most of the demise in the world… Jk
My opinion it is Frank Wren, for the following:
1. You mentioned Lowe and Kawakami, those moves have really paralyzed us in terms of putting more money toward pitching.
2. He says we have great pitching but honestly we have no #2 guy all season. JJ is and Hanson are both guideline guys. Which brings me to his biggest goof that has cost this team
3. Trading Javier Vasquez set this team back in regards to pitching. The guy is a innings eater, something we don’t have. And he pitched very well at Turner field. I know Terhan wil possibly be good but Javier would have given us a solid 2.
4. Development of young talent. Something is wrong here when first Francour, Hanson and Heyward do not or are not developing.
5. Hiring Roger McDowell. I am just not a believer. Our staff wears down and the middle of the bullpen has never developed. We need a change there.
I dot have a big problem with Fredi. He does struggle to manage his pitchers but hat is where I honk a better pitching coach would help.
As far as Parrish. I think a batting coach at this level is overrated. I doubt a guy like Chipper or Uggla use him, we know Heyward doesn’t. So why have one, seems like a waste.
Anyway my 2 cents
O'Brien
September 28th, 2011
1:51 pm
Jeff,
2 other comments on Frank Wren.
1) Nate McLouth’s contract, which we have been stuck with for multiple years (fortunately, this is his last year) has also limited flexibility.
2) Frank did not get a reliable reliever at the deadline (the team expected Moylan to be able to contribute, but he is coming off a big injury). If we had gotten a reliable reliever, maybe the workload on EOF, Venters and Kimbrel could have been reduced.
Jo Jo
September 28th, 2011
1:51 pm
It’s true, Jakester, but this team has struggled all year offensively. It’s just that our terrific pitching (past tense) overcame the lack of production
Matt
September 28th, 2011
1:51 pm
While Uggla was a nice addition the team was about .500 during his hotstreak. OTher than that month he’s been worthless at the plate.
HOw many 30/100 guys do we have? None. How many do every other team that has already qualified for the playoffs have. At least 1. Every team already qualified has a bonified game changing hitter in the middle of their lineup. We don’t.
Gus in Marietta
September 28th, 2011
1:52 pm
I hate to single out anyone for the collapse, as it is a team sport. But the Braves are 25 games over .500 in games D Lowe doesn’t start. D Lowe is 8 games under .500 for the year. If you had replaced D Lowe at the beginning of the year with a pitcher who goes .500 for the year, the Braves would be 33 games over .500. We’d be talking about trying to outpace the Phillies, instead of worrying about slipping behind in the wild card race. Heck, didn’t D Lowe lose 5 games this month alone? Put just two of those back in the win column and St. Louis is making golf plans for the offseason.
I’d also blame Fredi Gonzalez. He is the brainiac that keeps trotting D Lowe out there when it is obvious that the guy has nothing right now. It looks like he is throwing batting practice. Starting him last night was a big mistake. But keeping him in the game after grooving a gopher ball to Utley was equally stupid.
juice sourcer
September 28th, 2011
1:52 pm
The team doctor. No team can win when you lose 2 of your top of the rotation starting pictures. Blame it on injuries…just like last year. If Hanson and Juerjens were OK we would not be having this conversation…how would Phili be if Haladay and Lee were out?
Just sayin'
September 28th, 2011
1:53 pm
I agree that Lowe is a big part of the problem. That said, please check the record on the DUI, I believe all charges were dropped.
LOB Braves
September 28th, 2011
1:53 pm
I blame the following:
Fredi—A.K.A. Bobby Cox Lite—Mishandling of the bullpen consistently. If we had just a couple of the wins that Scott Proctor blew as well as those that Linebrink blew then we would already be in the playoffs. Keeping Constanza out of the lineup when he and the rest of the team were hot and putting that no-hitting Heyward in there daily.
Parrish—The anemic offense is enough to say here. Wouldn’t you think that the hitting coach could keep these goons from consistently swinging a pitches in the dirt and outside. Seabass, Heyward, Uggla, McPopup, and Prado to name a few. Shouldn’t it be the responsibility of the hitting coach to make sure his players were not swinging at the first pitch almost every time up?
These are the coaches so they have responsibility for the result.
Speedy Gonzalez ( Fredis cousin)
September 28th, 2011
1:54 pm
Yeah bench Constanza, his avg dropped from .400 to .300 he stinks! At least if he were playing it would be exciting if we still didnt score! Dumb move Fredi,doing the opponent a favor by not playing him. He & Bourn caused headaches for the enemy
theJakester
September 28th, 2011
1:54 pm
No doubt, Jo Jo…. so what I’m saying is that if we had kept our ‘full’ rotation healthy, I believe we wouldn’t be talking about a collapse. But yeah, watching this offense is truly offensive most nights.
Abnerish
September 28th, 2011
1:55 pm
It’s not like there’s only one or two guys that stopped hitting. Every single player except Alex Gonzalez has lower offensive numbers in September than the rest of the year. BA, HRs, RBIs, OPS, OBP, everything. Across the board. Frankly, Beachy, Delgado, and Minor have all held their own. I think blaming SPs (other than Lowe) is incorrect. These pitchers have had to pitch with little margin for error. They can’t pitch freely because they no they can’t make a mistake.
East Cobb BB
September 28th, 2011
1:56 pm
Detroit… never said they weren’t playing hard… this team is simply in a ‘funk’ (made worse by the injury bug). They are playing hard, but most of them are playing not to lose right now instead of playing to win (excuse the cliche but it’s true). Chipper has done admirably with his bat lately, but IMHO this is where he could have been even more valuable to the team. I understand with the “we are professionals and know what to do” approach he was trying to take pressure off of them, but it hasn’t loosened this team up one bit. You could get diamonds out of some of these guys right now if you could get a piece of coal in the right body cavity. They know what the elephant in the room is. At what point do you change your approach? He obviously felt comfortable “calling out” J-Hey earlier in the year to try and light a fire, and even though Heyward hasn’t responded at the plate I think the rest of the team did respond from that leadership at the time.
Thankfully, Michael Bourn appears to be figuring it out. His entire demeanor and approach at the plate seemed different last night. It’s like he finally got ticked off at himself. There was no more slapping at the ball and hoping to place it for a hit, but actually driving through it and taking his chances. He only got one hit, but if he keeps that approach tonight then it could be HUGE for the Braves with Hudson on the mound…… might actually prolong our misery for one more game. ;-(
Philli Fan
September 28th, 2011
1:56 pm
How about the dark, hateful past in Atlanta and the south in general? THe spirits are getting back at the region for all it has done wrong – and continues to do (extreme conservatism). MOOO HOO HAHA… You shall pay for all of your wrongdoings, Atlanta!!! MOO HOO HAHA
DetroitBraves
September 28th, 2011
1:56 pm
@ATLien makes some good points. Don’t see why he should go away. I will say that the team should always be open to criticism. Even had the team waltzed into the playoffs it would still be reasonable to ask how they may yet still be better…..better manager, eat Lowe’s contract, whatever. Should still be asking the questions.
@Columbus – Heyward has a .372 on-base percentage in September, 2nd on the team behind Alex Gonzalez of all people. Targeting him as the one to sit in favor of Constanza would be benching one of their more effective hitters. But by all means, don’t let facts get in the way of the same old tired Heyward bashing.