Poll: Who should get most blame for Braves’ collapse?
Here's two of your biggest targets: Derek Lowe and Fredi Gonzalez. (Curtis Compton/AJC)
I write this knowing that there’s still a very good chance the Braves (with Tim Hudson on the mound) will win tonight’s game against Philadelphia (which starts Joe Blanton) and at least force a one-game playoff for the wild card spot Thursday in St. Louis.
I write this knowing that if the Braves get into the playoffs, strange things have been known to happen in postseasons. And, seriously, it’s not like either potential divisional opponent, Milwaukee or Arizona, is some indestructible force.
Loading ...But as the Braves drag a four-game losing streak and 10-19 record over the past five weeks into the Phillies game, here’s the question: Who’s to blame for this collapse?
I’ve got my own feelings on this. But to be honest, I think I’m still in shock over the developments and, well, I’m still processing it all. A column will be forthcoming at some point. For now, I wanted to get your thoughts and post a poll on the topic.
I can’t list every player and team official. So I’ll just list a handful of candidates with a quick synopsis on each.
Here we go:
• Frank Wren: It’s his team. He built it. He made a solid move at the trade deadline for Michael Bourn, who has played well, but the Braves are only 26-26 with him in the lineup. So did Wren make the right move. Uggla looked like a good signing but results are mixed. There’s also the hangover over of the Derek Lowe and Kenshin Kawakami contracts, which has limited flexibility in moves.
• Fredi Gonzalez: He is the favorite whipping boy for a lot of folks. I’m not quite there yet. Gonzalez has made a ton of bold moves: taking Chipper Jones out of the No. 3 hole, benching Jason Heyward, changing lineups, shuffling batting orders. There’s only so much he can do. Starting Lowe on Tuesday obviously backfired in a major way. The flip side: You understand the concern of a manager starting his fourth rookie pitcher (Julio Teheran) in a pennant race. Then again, there’s this: It’s the manager’s job to get his team to play better. Obviously, that’s not happening right now.
• Larry Parrish: He is the new hitting coach. The Braves are not hitting. Many of you folks dumped on Terry Pendleton. So how do you feel about the job Parrish is doing?
• Derek Lowe: When Tommy Hanson and Jair Jurrjens went down with injuries, the Braves just needed Lowe to be halfway decent. Two more wins from Lowe and they’re not even in this position. But now he’s a mess.
• Dan Uggla: He’s back to his first-pitch, over-swinging, let-me-save-the-world-in-one-at-bat habits. Not good.
• Jason Heyward: He has been a major disappointment in year two, and the problems appear to go beyond him just having his swing messed up by injuries.
• Martin Prado: Personally, I think his season has hurt more than anything. Prado was Mr. Everything last season but this year has struggled, had some ailments and never got into rhythm.
• Brian McCann: He’s another guy who was counted on to be a major run producer. But clearly he is banged up. I debated even putting him on the list but he is this team’s potential cleanup hitter.
That’s it. You’ll notice I’m not listing Chipper Jones. If you want to discuss him below, that’s fine. But I’m not going to list him on the poll. I find it crazy that anybody would pin the team’s problems on him. He’s hitting .280 (No. 2 on the team) with 18 homers (No. 4) and 69 RBIs (No. 4). The man is 39 years old and being held together with duct tape. In terms of production, exactly what was it you expected?
OK, have at it. Who gets the most blame for what has been going on?
By Jeff Schultz
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699 comments Add your comment
DawginLex
September 28th, 2011
12:03 pm
I voted for Wren but it is actually the injuries to the pitching staff that caused this house to crumble
Russ
September 28th, 2011
12:03 pm
I think injuries to the pitching staff are really to blame, the front office has put together a pretty good team. They do not hit on a consistent basis.
sidslid
September 28th, 2011
12:04 pm
Prado should not bat second. Dump Gonzalez and get a placeholder shortstop to bat second next year until one of the shortstops in the minors is ready. Alternatively, let Chipper hit second next year. Move Prado to seventh hole with Heyward eighth.
Hitting coaches are way overrated. There was only one who ever mattered, Charlie Lau. The guy in Texas got his rep because it is a hitter’s park. Look at Napoli’s numbers this year!
99is1
September 28th, 2011
12:04 pm
I voted for Larry Parrish because the offensive philosophy of consistently swinging at the first pitch has been a problem since day one, but I really lay the blame at the injuries to Jurrjens and Hanson. They combined for 22 games at the all-star break. But in the 2nd half the rookies who were forced to replace them won only 7 games. While Teheran, Delgado and Minor did a very good job and the future looks bright, the chain reaction of putting the onus on the bullpen for all those innings, coupled with Lowe’s bad performances, made the offensive struggles even more evident.
Supes
September 28th, 2011
12:04 pm
Jeff,
the blame doesn’t LAY on any one of those folks…but all of them! I’m sorry…I voted “Fredi” in your poll only b/c he and Wren have “the most control” over things.
First…Wren is at fault for not being able to unload the huge contract of LOWE this year at the trade deadline…teams like the Yankees and Sox were looking for SP…granted it may have been an “unspectacular kind of deal”…where the Braves get C level prospect(s) and may have to pay up to half the salary for next year…but at least you are well RID of that WASTE of SPACE that is Derek bLowe.
Second…not capitalizing on Jair’s high value first half…now another injury knocks him down…do you honestly see both Jair and Hanson here long term? I don’t…both Boras clients to boot. So it’s inevitable that the Braves will either trade or “not resign” one or both of them eventually. So why not capitalize on Jair’s high value by dealing him…if you have Teheran, Minor, Delgado, Vizcaino and now Medlen (a forgotten starter who had the Braves at 10-1 when he started games last year before blowing out his elbow). So you have all those starters…yet he could have gotten us an IMPACT bat for LF if he had tried to work out a deal for Jair when his value was at an all time high.
Yes Wren went out and did an excellent deal for Bourn…yet due to Prado’s failures (and Heyward) another impact OF type player should have been added. That’s on Wren.
Now to Fredi…his refusal to delegate bLowe to the Bullpen for the last six weeks is astonishing. The Giants manned up and “bullpened” their big money mistake Zito when he struggled, heck even left off the playoff roster (when the time came) – meanwhile Fredi’s refusal (who knows why…lack of faith in the youngsters, pressure from Wren to trot out bLowe since he’s making so much money and benching him basically admits that he failed…well either way then youngsters couldn’t have DONE much worst than bLowe did. Infact…I’m willing to say they could have given us a better chance to win. So that’s on Fredi.
Lineup…refusing to bench the ICE COLD PRADO…in favor of a Costanza who brings a speed element to the game…speed NEVER SLUMPS folks.
Now lastly – it’s up to the players to do THEIR job…Prado, McOut, Heyward all for the large part of the last month have failed miserably. At one point things offensively were so bad that Alex Gonzalez (the blog fave whipping boy with the bat) became our hottest hitter! Think about that Jeff…
So it’s a trickle down affect. From Wren, to Fredi to key position players…take your pick sir.
Hiesenberg
September 28th, 2011
12:04 pm
Lowe took the money. When you take the money, you are stating you are the man and you want it that way. He was the man last year at this time. But that does not excuse this year. Last year he performed up to his salary level. This year he has not. No confidence he will next year either. If you cannot perform to the pay scale you are earning, you are the goat. You gotta earn the paycheck every season – not just for 2 months of a 4 year deal.. Give the money back and retire.
I see Uggla as a different case. He carried the team offensively the second half. He took the money and sucked the first half but has earned it the second half. Only the average is off. His power numbers are where they are for what he is being paid and his defense has been better.
Joycee Banicheck
September 28th, 2011
12:05 pm
If you can’t get your team in the right mindset for a playoff push then what good are you. Fredi and his EPIC FAIL this season is #1. Close 2nd is Wren, how much money was tied up this season between Lowe, Kawakami, and Mclouth? Way too much…
#3 is the hitting, and that would be almost every player that hits. I can’t understand how this team has completely lost focus at the plate down the stretch. Someone please tell me one thing the hitting coach did this season. I can’t think of one.
This team has no pulse, and that rests solely on the skipper.
IlliniBrave
September 28th, 2011
12:06 pm
It is interesting to think way back four years ago, when D-Lowe was one of the hottest pitchers on the market, and we got him. The blogs were lit up with “WE GOT DERRICK LOWE!” comments. Wow, what a difference four years makes!
rlinaug
September 28th, 2011
12:06 pm
Epic collapses need to be followed by epic house cleaning. This team lost two starting pitchers and the whole damn season collapses? Hell, Minor, Delgado, and Teheran have pitched well enough to keep the Braves in most games. This team can’t hit. Parrish has to go. Has to. Everyone on this team hit worse than they did last year, except chipper, and the Braves had only 2 players with more than 70 RBIs, and none with more than 80. And Michael Bourne was batting more than 300 when the braves traded for him… .270 as a Brave. Parrish has to go. And quite frankly, I’d let Freddie G go. I can think of at least four games where his moves led directly to runs for the other team. And I fault him for not letting his starters go past six innings. With a team that rarely won a game by more than 2 runs… he should have let his starters work a little deeper into games. He wore out his bullpen. I’d fire him. Or trade him.
And I’d fire him for not playing Constanza. He and Bourne were dynamite batting one after the other. Why’d he stop penciling them in together?
IlliniBrave
September 28th, 2011
12:08 pm
Uh, that would be DEREK Lowe. Sorry, spell checker not working today.
Carlton
September 28th, 2011
12:08 pm
I love how everyone continues to say “Derek Lowe was great this time last year and in the postseason”..woo-hoo. He’s one pitcher. He also didn’t pitch that great last year during the regular season. We should have all seen this coming
Hiesenberg
September 28th, 2011
12:09 pm
A close second for the blame wold ge Fredi. It is obvious Lowe is done, and Fredi keeps running him out there. IF Braves are lucky enough to make playoffs, better come to their senses and leave Lowe off the roster entirely.
PMC
September 28th, 2011
12:13 pm
For the record, I think Lowe got off on the DUI. The cops wrongly pulled him over, then let the guy who actually was racing off.
Lowe though, YOU are MAKING 15 MILLION DOLLARS THIS YEAR. You are a veteran player, you DO NOT GET TO FAIL MISERABLY and then blame mechanics. YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER.
IF this bum is in spring training next year Frank should be fired.
PMC
September 28th, 2011
12:13 pm
If you’re mechanics are wrong you better bloodly well fix them.
Joycee Banicheck
September 28th, 2011
12:14 pm
Am I a bad fan if I now want the Braves to make the playoffs only to get swept in EPIC fashion so that Fredi gets the axe? Trying to weigh the benefits here but I really don’t see this team going very far at all in any playoff scenario with Mr. Tip your cap to the other team being the skipper.
busterbrave
September 28th, 2011
12:17 pm
frank wren #1,larry parrish#2 ,these players are’nt robots,like many of you think,162 + games,they are humanoids just like you,and get injured,wear down,regular life stuff,etc.,as bad as it seems,we still have a chance on yhe last game of the year,most of you don’t remember before 1991,i’ve been a braves fan since 1966,so boo freaking hoo fairweather,bandwagon,”fans”? also jason heyward needs to workout his problems @ gwinnett next year,not atl.,just some production from him,and we might not be in this predicament. i know the hype and the jersey $$$$ he brings keeps them from sending him down,but really?! word!
Belcher
September 28th, 2011
12:17 pm
George Bush!!!
GaDawgs7
September 28th, 2011
12:17 pm
This just in! White House says both Braves and Red Sox collapse is George Bush’s fault
ATLien
September 28th, 2011
12:17 pm
I know sane and rational thought on the internet is scarce, even more so when it’s a discussion about Atlanta sports. Between the crappy writers around here, and the hate tossing responders reality gets lost.
A this is not a collapse. The Sox are collapsing. Their healthy pitchers are pitching like garbage. The Braves on the other hand, are missing their #1 and #2 starters. I dare say you remove the #1 and #2 from any team and they ALL would struggle. You think the Phils are going to win without Halladay and Lee? Yanks without CC and Nova? It’s more a story of injury than collapse. Of course, reality reporting doesn’t drive TV ratings or blog comments so you won’t hear that side of it anywhere.
Further, this team is so young, to even be here it’s way ahead of schedule. This team is still a year to two away from all the youthful talent hitting and really being in a position to contend. The fact that they’re even here in this position at all is a reflection of how good the team is and how well it’s been assembled.
Haters will hate, until we win, then they’ll say they knew it all along.
Gatorman
September 28th, 2011
12:17 pm
Hey! You don’t want to include Chipper Jones because he’s 39???? Good, when he gives back the $14M dollars, then he doesn’t get included. Braves management had to be crazy and drunk to give him that money to keep him here. He could have been let go (like A. Jones) to be the disaster for another team. Clean house and get rid of all the old guys and take your lumps for 2-3 years and rebuild with the core younger players.
nashvillewill
September 28th, 2011
12:18 pm
Derek Lowe has struggled since mid-season, blames his “mechanics” for “non-competitive” pitches. Yet Gonzales runs him out there every fifth day and has cost the team multiple wins. Fredi did move Chipper down, then back again. Now Chipper is back to looking useless–watching him bat with the game on the line and hitting into double plays is sad and reminds me of what he used to bring. I am now on the “Retire, Chipper, you are 1/2 the player you once were” train. Fredi also wasted the bulllpen and wore them out, failed to deal with JJ’s injury problem early on, and failed to give the young pitchers needed experience earlier in the season. You may say, how could he know? Well, Lowe was already terrible, JJ had lost 4 mph off his “fast”ball, and Hanson was an injury waiting to happen. He could have sat Lowe and JJ down, brought up Minor, Teheran, and Delgado and given them the ball. One last misjudgment was reinserting the horrible Heyward instead of staying with Constanza who at least brought a spark. FG all the way! Hopefully, all the way OUT as manager.
OldFan
September 28th, 2011
12:19 pm
My granddaughter asked me last night what “pitiful” meant. I just pointed to the TV screen as the Braves played. The entire team has collapsed. And that’s hard to do in baseball, where every player’s contribution is almost exclusively individual. I didn’t think it possible for everyone to be playing so badly at the same time. Relish this. We might be a witness to baseball history being made.
1eyedJack
September 28th, 2011
12:19 pm
IlliniBrave, if I remember correctly I think Derek Lowe was our third or fourth choice that year, and we were so desperate for starting pitching we would have cheered signing a 90 year old Satchel Paige.
NOIINTEAM
September 28th, 2011
12:20 pm
It’s the team not any individual, you win as a team and lose as a team!! NO I IN THE WORD TEAM!
Homer The Timid
September 28th, 2011
12:21 pm
Can we blame the sorry Braves fans who never turn out for games during a playoff push?
Fred
September 28th, 2011
12:21 pm
Jeff,
I agree with the many who opt for “the offense as a whole”. Now who is to blame for this? From my perspective low RISP is a mental issue rather than a physical one, so I turn to the manager and hitting coach, along with the team psychologist (they do have one I presume!). I also look to the team leaders such as Chipper and Brian.
For me a telling commentary is that both these team leaders turn to someone outside the organization to help them with their swings. I have read more of your articles sighting Chipper’s help than LP. And least we forget the years of damage TP inflicted!
In sum the entire organization is to “blame”, the question is what to change for next year to prevent yet another repeat performance. I would nail down a PROVEN hitting coach whom the players would trust and respect, and that list does not include TP or LP.
Punkner
September 28th, 2011
12:23 pm
I agree with NotJeffSchultz that it is Obama’s fault. Let’s face it, if the Corporate Tax rate was zero the Braves would have more money to blow. Actually I blame the nature of the game today. Back when players had to renegotiate their contract every year there was a great incentive to produce down the stretch. Now not making the playoffs just means they get to spend their millions and retire to their mansions earlier, and watch the playoffs in the comfort of their in home theaters.
Ed
September 28th, 2011
12:23 pm
F. Gonzalez. Period.
ronaldh
September 28th, 2011
12:24 pm
Who do I blame? Let’s start with Frank “the bird” Wren. If for no other reasons, the money we gave lowe and kamakazi merit his being gone. On top of that, we needed some big bats in the lineup. He was handicapped by throwing that kind of money at two pitchers who obviously haven’t produced (kamakazi, when was he last on a big league roster) or haven’t produced consistently (Lowe, and he flat out hasn’t produced this year). Wren signed Uggla. Yes, on paper that “looks like a good deal” but as you noted, we need his bat now and he has slipped back into some bad old habits. I don’t blame Prado. He had a great season last year, probablya once-in-a-lifetime season. He is a utility player, not an everyday player. Jason Hayward, yes, he deserves his share of the blame. He was billed as a “can’t miss prospect.” To this point he reminds me of the second coming of Brad Kominsk. I predict that if Heyward doesn’t turn it around he will be out of the big leagues in two years.
Kovy
September 28th, 2011
12:24 pm
Can we hang this on the Atlanta Spirit?
TDL
September 28th, 2011
12:24 pm
Left side of infield and right field – 3rd base and RF should be big bats
Blog comments are retarded
September 28th, 2011
12:24 pm
Carlton:
1.) I blame Lowe’s DUI
There was no DUI charge against him. It was dropped
2.) I blame Chipper’s ego (lose a ground ball in the lights..really??)
Lights were repositioned for football and the ball hit off the plate, if you looked up after the swing, it looked like a pop up, but don’t let facts get in the way of a irrational rant.
3.) I blame Heyward forgetting how to hit
Me too
4.) I blame the Omar Infante trade
Not sure how this works but I guess you’re saying that you blame Uggla? He hit his home runs, that’s what the Braves paid him to do.
5.) I blame Martin Prado not hustling
Haven’t seen that, but honestly his reputation is so good that I haven’t looked for it.
6.) I blame Fredi for not keeping Jorge Constanza on this roster and starting
Um, Constanza is on the roster and hitting worse than Heyward. See Sept stats. Again, don’t let the facts stop your rant.
7.) I blame Frank Wren for thinking Kawakami would be the next Japanese sensation..and paying for it, literally and figuratively
He took a gamble and lost. That had next to no impact on this season. At least he knew he was wrong and moved him off of the active roster in 2011.
8.) I blame Frank Wren for not dumping Derek Lowe earlier, I think we ALL saw this coming.
If you had a $30 million dollar employee working for you on a two year guaranteed contract, I’d like to know what you would do. Seriously. Please though, don’t say anything about a trade. They tried, no one took him. Would you suggest paying someone $30 million to sit at home? Really?
tale of woe
September 28th, 2011
12:25 pm
I blame Hurricane Irene – since the Braves had those off days nothing has been the same. We lost some mojo and really have fallen apart since then.
Hoops Dawg
September 28th, 2011
12:25 pm
Nova Scotia hit the nail on the head with the first comment on this string. Yes we lost two first-line pitchers and even Lowe has publically admitted he sucked. But given the abmysal RISP average the team has posted this month, the entire offense is most to blame. As for the Constanza issue, I think that he may be one of the “Players to be named later” from an earlier trade and Freddie has been instructed to go lightly with him. I cannot think of another reason why Constanza has not been -playing when he was so effective when he was in there.
iTiSi
September 28th, 2011
12:26 pm
How is it that everybody, and their mother’s brother’s grandmother’s cousin knew that starting Lowe in that game last night would be another loss, EXCEPT FREDI GONZALEZ! He is hardheaded and is related to Obama. Neither one have the slightest idea what they are doing right now! PERIOD!!
chris
September 28th, 2011
12:27 pm
I like Fredi but the blame lies with him. I think his quick hook and sticking to pitch counts no matter what the circumstance has worn out his bullpen. Perfect example: Delgado is pitching well in game 1 of the phillies and had only thrown 82 pitches. Fredi didn’t give him the opportunity to keep going, turned the game over to the Bullpen and they blew it. I realize there are times especially early in the season when you have to stick to pitch counts. However, when you are in a penant race you have to throw pitch counts out the window and go with the hot hand. Fredi won’t do it and his worn out bullpen is now costing him games.
Keeping it Real
September 28th, 2011
12:28 pm
Toss up between Mark Bradley, Carroll Rodgers, Dave O’Brien, Jeff Schultz and the Tea Party.
ATLien
September 28th, 2011
12:29 pm
Hey Atlanta, there’s roughly 25 or so other cities out there that would kill to be in the position we are, with a young winning team, still in the playoff chase, and with upside to be much better in the coming years. Seriously, just shut up with the who to blame thing and root for your @##$%%%^^^ team.
If you got to blame someone, blame the AJC for it’s years of brainwashing this city with it’s negativity.
STRETCH
September 28th, 2011
12:29 pm
When is the last time the Braves had a legit platoon in the outfield???? Thats one of the problems right there!
iTiSi
September 28th, 2011
12:29 pm
The Braves, including their manager, are probably taking a page out of the President’s book and blaming everyone except themselves right now.
T Burns
September 28th, 2011
12:31 pm
There is obviously an offensive philosophy problem, and this has to go to Gonzalez and Parrish. Not enough production means too few runs, it’s own problem, but it also taxes bullpen arms by playing so many close games – even ones that you win. The offensive problems get compounded, and I’d love to see Parrish lose his job over it.
three jack
September 28th, 2011
12:31 pm
2 years in a row McCann has bombed down the stretch…I especially know this because 2 years in a row I traded for him at our Fantasy League deadline to help my stretch run. In the words of George W. Bush, “fool me once…..shame on…………….you, fool me, you can’t get fooled again.” http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/bushvideos/youtube/bushfoolme.htm
Time to trade McCann.
Keeping it Real
September 28th, 2011
12:32 pm
Add D. Hall, the NFL refs and iTiSi.
iTiSi
September 28th, 2011
12:32 pm
When it comes to DL, Karma has a lot to do with this. His and the team’s failure. Karma can be a positive and can be a negative, but it will usually come back to visit you. Karma can also be revengeful. I can attest to that, as can many. One can get off with just a slight “slap on the wrist” or even nothing at all, but in the end, you will pay a price. Just ask O.J.
STRETCH
September 28th, 2011
12:32 pm
Oh, i forgot, they dont have to money and what little money they did have, almost 50 mil of it is going to DL, Chipper and KK! Two worthless pitchers and a soon to be 40 yr old who gives all he’s got day in and day out, but time has caught up to him.
Matt from MN
September 28th, 2011
12:32 pm
They ALL stink. Management, coaches and players are all culpable in this fiasco. Frankly, I wouldn’t even know where to start to fix this mess. J-Hey has looked lost, D-Lowe is a waste of roster space, Fredi G’s management has been perplexing, and the front office seems to make too many bad moves or not needed moves.
The only good thing has been the relief corps, Freemans’ emergence and hopefully the emergence of some qualify arms on the starting rotation in Minor, Beachy, etc.
Belcher
September 28th, 2011
12:33 pm
CMR
Belcher
September 28th, 2011
12:34 pm
Mickey Mouse injuries!!!
5 Time National Champs Nebraska
September 28th, 2011
12:35 pm
I blame men from other planets.
Jason
September 28th, 2011
12:35 pm
Steve Bartman