Poll: Who should get most blame for Braves’ collapse?
Here's two of your biggest targets: Derek Lowe and Fredi Gonzalez. (Curtis Compton/AJC)
I write this knowing that there’s still a very good chance the Braves (with Tim Hudson on the mound) will win tonight’s game against Philadelphia (which starts Joe Blanton) and at least force a one-game playoff for the wild card spot Thursday in St. Louis.
I write this knowing that if the Braves get into the playoffs, strange things have been known to happen in postseasons. And, seriously, it’s not like either potential divisional opponent, Milwaukee or Arizona, is some indestructible force.
Loading ...But as the Braves drag a four-game losing streak and 10-19 record over the past five weeks into the Phillies game, here’s the question: Who’s to blame for this collapse?
I’ve got my own feelings on this. But to be honest, I think I’m still in shock over the developments and, well, I’m still processing it all. A column will be forthcoming at some point. For now, I wanted to get your thoughts and post a poll on the topic.
I can’t list every player and team official. So I’ll just list a handful of candidates with a quick synopsis on each.
Here we go:
• Frank Wren: It’s his team. He built it. He made a solid move at the trade deadline for Michael Bourn, who has played well, but the Braves are only 26-26 with him in the lineup. So did Wren make the right move. Uggla looked like a good signing but results are mixed. There’s also the hangover over of the Derek Lowe and Kenshin Kawakami contracts, which has limited flexibility in moves.
• Fredi Gonzalez: He is the favorite whipping boy for a lot of folks. I’m not quite there yet. Gonzalez has made a ton of bold moves: taking Chipper Jones out of the No. 3 hole, benching Jason Heyward, changing lineups, shuffling batting orders. There’s only so much he can do. Starting Lowe on Tuesday obviously backfired in a major way. The flip side: You understand the concern of a manager starting his fourth rookie pitcher (Julio Teheran) in a pennant race. Then again, there’s this: It’s the manager’s job to get his team to play better. Obviously, that’s not happening right now.
• Larry Parrish: He is the new hitting coach. The Braves are not hitting. Many of you folks dumped on Terry Pendleton. So how do you feel about the job Parrish is doing?
• Derek Lowe: When Tommy Hanson and Jair Jurrjens went down with injuries, the Braves just needed Lowe to be halfway decent. Two more wins from Lowe and they’re not even in this position. But now he’s a mess.
• Dan Uggla: He’s back to his first-pitch, over-swinging, let-me-save-the-world-in-one-at-bat habits. Not good.
• Jason Heyward: He has been a major disappointment in year two, and the problems appear to go beyond him just having his swing messed up by injuries.
• Martin Prado: Personally, I think his season has hurt more than anything. Prado was Mr. Everything last season but this year has struggled, had some ailments and never got into rhythm.
• Brian McCann: He’s another guy who was counted on to be a major run producer. But clearly he is banged up. I debated even putting him on the list but he is this team’s potential cleanup hitter.
That’s it. You’ll notice I’m not listing Chipper Jones. If you want to discuss him below, that’s fine. But I’m not going to list him on the poll. I find it crazy that anybody would pin the team’s problems on him. He’s hitting .280 (No. 2 on the team) with 18 homers (No. 4) and 69 RBIs (No. 4). The man is 39 years old and being held together with duct tape. In terms of production, exactly what was it you expected?
OK, have at it. Who gets the most blame for what has been going on?
By Jeff Schultz
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699 comments Add your comment
AFSOC 1st Sgt
September 29th, 2011
7:42 am
1. Liberty Media
2. Frank Wren
3. Fredi, Larry Parrish, Roger
Sons of Rick Matula
September 29th, 2011
7:46 am
I blame Freddi Gonzalez. How many games did Scott Proctor cost this team? Yet the guy got picked up by the Yankees and gives up the game winning HR on Longoria. Scott Proctor single-handedly killed both the Braves and the Red Sox.
stendek
September 29th, 2011
7:51 am
Hey Don. Long time Brave fans knew the choke was coming. Would you frequent a restaurant where the food is always undercooked? Would you go to a physician that habitually prescribes wrong medications? I hope not! No fan ever struck out, surrendered a lead or went through the motions on the diamond. THESE BRAVES DID! Your comments about the fans being at fault are not only an outright lie but are truly offensive to all faithful followers of the Braves. Guess Falcon fans are reason team is 1-2 or Dawg fans are to blame for 2-2 fiasco. Total BS! There is no joy or logic in spending good money on an inferior product.
bob
September 29th, 2011
7:54 am
Look at batting averages: McCann down 40 points from last year; Prado and Heyward down 30 points;
Chipper 30+ points below his lifetime average; Gonzalez hits about 230; not much hitting in the clutch; failure to get runners home from third with less than 2 outs all season. Poor sacrafice bunting all year.
Next year need new shortstop, and 3b, is there one waiting in the wings. Sign Bourn to long-term contract and plans Constanza in outfield. It was fun to watch the Braves when both were in the game.
poolcue
September 29th, 2011
7:54 am
why do you think the fish got rid of fg you cant kiss players ass just because at one time one of them gave you a bike. you run the club like a girl!! Instead of hugs and fanny pats how about a good calling out of a player making big bucks not getting the job done. in shock here we will never win with fg BILLY MARTIN JUST ROLLED OVER IN HISS GRAVE!!!
William in a Truck
September 29th, 2011
7:57 am
Jerry Glanville and Jeff George.
fan81
September 29th, 2011
8:00 am
frank wren – we all new at the start of the season that the only way we were going to be relevant was to stay healthy. when all the pieces were available the braves won on a regular basis. once the injuries began to mount we once again found out that we just were not deep enough to win games. when you field a major league team with a mid market payroll this is what you get unless lady luck is in your corner and she decided she liked st. louis a little better.
01HAWK
September 29th, 2011
8:16 am
Jeff Schultz………………………..What is it we were expecting of SLIPPER JONES YOU ASK ?
How about 14 MILLION DOLLARS worth of production…………………………Is what we expect.
DUH !!!!!!!!!!!
Lowcountry Jacket
September 29th, 2011
8:16 am
I place a lot of the blame on the front office and upper management. The Braves won many, many games over the years through sheer raw talent… I’m mainly talking their run of 13 straight years winning the division. Even during that dominating run, they almost always choked in the playoffs. What set the magical seasons of 1991-1995 apart from the seasons that followed was the swagger in the clubhouse… a winning instinct. Those players had swagger and a will to win. They were a fun collection of players to watch. We all remember the names. Later Braves teams had the talent, but no strong personalities and no obvious will to win.
Deion Sanders wasn’t the Braves best player, but I think the turning point in the program coincided roughly with the team getting rid of David Justice and Deion Sanders. Apparently, the Braves corporate management wanted players with bland, vanilla-type personalities… mild-mannered accountant types with athletic ability, not swaggering Type-A personalities who disrupt the dugout.
When the Braves were up 6 runs in Game 4 against the Yankees in ‘96 and lost that game, I knew they were going to eventually lose the series. After that world series, I got a sense that the Braves would never win another one for a long, long time, if ever. They don’t have that extra “something” a team needs to carry it through the stretch when athletic ability isn’t enough.
hunter55
September 29th, 2011
8:20 am
The manager and the whole coaching staff have to go, the biggest collapse in NL history, enough said.
01HAWK
September 29th, 2011
8:21 am
It is amazing that the BRAVES can screw someone up with their teaching knowledge on hitting. I can remember Brian Jordan saying that CONSTANZA hit everywhere he has been in the minors……………………………..He hits for awhile then goes into a deep slump after he gets here.
JHEY needs to go to either INSTRUCTIONAL LEAGUE or WINTER BALL.
No excuses……………………………………..TAMPA IS IN WITH A PAYROLL OF 47 MILLION. ARIZONA has a low payroll also.
Jason
September 29th, 2011
8:26 am
Its the Braves’ upper management’s fault for not trading Chipper about 4 years ago when they could have gotten great value for him.
jman
September 29th, 2011
8:27 am
Larry Parrish by far is to blame for the struggles of this team all season. With TP the Braves near the top of the league in walks / OBP. This patience is what works the starting pitcher; forces them to either give in or give out. The Braves used this strategy last year to produce many more runs with a less talented team. The impatience / swinging early in the counts got the hitters behind, which puts the hitter at a big disadvantage. This was the biggest difference from last season. Say what you want about individual players, their results were impacted by the change in strategy; a failed strategy at that.
hunter55
September 29th, 2011
8:27 am
Remember Freddie was fired by the Marlins because, and I qoute the the Miami paper. BAD IN GAME MANAGER!!!!!AMEN
UGA in Milton
September 29th, 2011
8:30 am
Uggla killed the Braves this year, sure he hit alot of homers late but for 3/4 of the season he was horrible, he hit 235 while making 13+million. Prado and Heyward had horrible years too
Whiskey Breath
September 29th, 2011
8:33 am
The Braves organization. Starting with the the GM, and the front office. Bobby could at least get average players in the playoffs. The media also has played it’s part in promoting a strong offense which never materializes. Next winter when they start all that promotion BS, look out for a backlash.
Blob Horner
September 29th, 2011
8:38 am
We are a team caught in transition from being one of the Big Boys(top five payroll) to being a mid-market team. It has taken John, and now Frank longer than you would expect smart men to change their approach to fielding a team, but they are changing. Some of that may well be hubris overriding intelligence, but they wouldn’t be unique in that fault. They’ve had the player developement down for 20 years now (Bobby got that rolling), they are just going to have to learn to live without the big ticket free agents and holding onto agging superstars well past their prime(unless they are willing to accept what they are presently worth as a player, which most superstars aren’t). We won’t be able to sign the players the Yankees and Redsox sign, and their rejects aren’t worth the money. We can all invision the team we’d have on the field now if our approach had been recongigured about five years ago, but that doesn’t help ease the pain in any way. It does appear that Frank has figured it out and will purge the last of his and John’s mistakes in the next year or so. The costs for signing a low OBP second baseman with poor range just for his power numbers is a luxury we can’t afford. It results in a thin bench, poor middle relief or an inability to pay and keep your up and coming players. I like Michael Bourne, but what are the future cost of his signing. We might be creating a hole just as our young arms are all maturing. All the ghosts of past short term trades were roaming the fild last night. I envisioned Elvis turning a crucial doubleplay to get out of a jam, but unfortunately, he had left the building.
Frank Tolopko
September 29th, 2011
8:45 am
The curse of Troy Davis. Couldn’t keep the injustice off their minds.
Gatorhater
September 29th, 2011
8:46 am
Why is Prado even on the list? Before he was hurt he carried the team!
cowdogit
September 29th, 2011
8:47 am
Thats the reason Bobby retired, he didn’t want to deal with Chipper hanging on for his long term ridiculous paycheck.
BobDawg
September 29th, 2011
8:47 am
I agree with Horner above but when Jurrjens and Hanson went down with injuries, that sealed this clubs fate…The rest of the starters (except Hudson) could not get deep into games and the Bullpen blew a gasket eventually. The wheels just came off… Will be an interesting offseason as we have young arms in waiting (Degado, Teheran) and aging arms, hurt arms up here now… Who do you keep and who do you let go????
steve
September 29th, 2011
8:48 am
the only option is the phillies. you ran into a buzz saw the last 2 years in september. we are the new standard in baseball. also, derek lowe $hit the bed
Fredi G is no Bobby Cox!
September 29th, 2011
8:57 am
Fredi G is primarily to blame.. After it became obvious that Lowe was a disaster in about every game he pitched, Fredi stuck with him. Win just one of those games (by pitching someone other than Lowe) and the braves are in the playoffs Many other coaching decisions could be cited here if I had more time. Fredi G. is NO BOBBY COX.
dmr
September 29th, 2011
9:01 am
No one person is responsible. THE ENTIRE OFFENSE has been atrocious. You need only look at the statistics with regards to RUNNERS IN SCORING POSITION. The Braves squandered too many opportunities to mention.
The Phillies have a dangerous lineup all the way from top to bottom. The Braves, not so much. I still don’t understand trying to steal 3rd, with two on, and no one out, with the heart of your lineup coming to the plate. Admittedly, the ump blew the call, but that is what happens when you put your fate in the hands of another.
Braves need to add speed and a bat. The Braves need to so goodbye to D. Lowe and make some aggressive moves to shore up the offense; even if that means trading some talented youth. If not, we’ll be right back here again next year.
Alejandro Pena
September 29th, 2011
9:06 am
This is easy. You blame the manager and the “clubhouse leader”. Fredi and Chipper have to go. Scrap all the high priced talent and let the farm kids play. I would rather see the Braves lose 100 games with kids who are giving 100%, than watch this same bunch of mediocre players win 85 games with no heart or fire.
boots
September 29th, 2011
9:07 am
Our outfield sucked for most of the year. Bourne is a very good player, but when your #2 and #3 spots can’t move him over, it limits his effectiveness. Until he arrived, we had a horrible RF and below average LF player. Our SS position is lacking, and even our “solid” positions did not play well this year at all. Our starting pitchers are going to be fine, and the bullpen is good as long as they don’t get worn out again. I lay that on Freddie, but he really did not have a choice.
Wren: your mission is to get a better outfield and find a solid SS. Even then, unless McCann and Uggla step up next year, we will be finishing 3rd in the division.
Jimmy
September 29th, 2011
9:14 am
Look, with a few exceptions, the team flat out choked. They’ve been pitching and hitting for 20-30 yrs so blaming it on a coach/administrator doesn’t fly. Would having Hanson and JJ on board have made a difference? Sure. But, the millionaire Bravos didn’t step up with their absence so now they are stepping out. Enjoy the off-season guys. Golf and hunt your heads off!
Al Gore
September 29th, 2011
9:15 am
I blame global warming!
Stevo
September 29th, 2011
9:16 am
Obviously, as others have said, you can’t pin the blame on any one person. Collectively, the weak offense is the culprit. Freeman’s grounder into the double play to end the game was the perfect image for this team’s collapse.
ML
September 29th, 2011
9:19 am
I blame Bobby Cox for leaving too soon. He wouldn’t have let this happen. If Jack McKeon can be out there at 80 this season, so could Bobby. Gol dangit Bobby!!
mike M.
September 29th, 2011
9:42 am
I blame Chip Carey’s eyebrows.
randyarnold
September 29th, 2011
9:49 am
While Stevo is right about the inept offense down the stretch, if you had to look at one player it’s got to be Derek Lowe. If he had pitched to the level he did as early as last year down the stretch, the Braves would have been able to arrange their pitching rotation for the playoffs before the Phillies series.
Let’s face it: The baseball gods did not want the Braves to win. Not only were they hexed by hitting around .170 with runners in scoring position down the stretch, but McCann and Prado couldn’t get a clutch hit and Larry loses a bouncer in the lights.
Frank Wren: See if you can get a bag of balls and some bats for Lowe (maybe Texas will want him after they lose C.J. Wilson). Have faith in your young pitchers next year, even though it might not get the Braves into the playoffs. Play the youngster who played in Mississippi at short next season, hope Freeman doesn’t go into a sophomore slump like Heyward did and hope Heyward bounces back to be the player everyone believes he can be.
And if you want to hear real pain and angst, tune in to WEEI on the Internet. The Red Sox fans are feeling pain they haven’t experienced since 2003.
Paul Jenkins
September 29th, 2011
9:51 am
Jeff,
Same problem for years with this team the inability to go out and get a big bat!!! The offense was the major problem this season as in many of the other seasons. Clearly the Phillies move to bring in Pence was HUGE for them and could have been huge for the Braves who was sitting in the drivers seat at the beginning of the Pence trade. Although I do Love the Bourn move but it just was’nt enough POWER for this team clearly Pence was the better piece available to the Braves. The Coaching gets a D- in my book Fredi maybe the worst manager I have ever seen at working the middle of a tight game. He always went to the wrong guy in the Bullpen to hose a game. I will go back to the Dodger game early in the season with his bonehead decision not to walk Kemp with a open base at 1st and he hits a walkoff 2 run homerun to win it. For me that was the beginning of many mismanaged ball games there are obviously many more. The use of Scott Proctor, and Linebrink in close managable ball games was absolutely ridiculious. I attribute at least 12-15 games lost on poor coaching decisions and mismanagement of players. Derek Lowe (WHAT A JOKE OF A SEASON) how can that guy cash those big checks and feel good about himself??? Again Fredi I don’t care how much your paying him should have sat him down weeks ago he was blowing games and never gave the lackluster offense a chance for any wins. Prado, Heyward, and McCann were offense letdowns but I’m with you they were hurt and something is just not right with Heyward??? Kimbrel, and Venters were spent and the middle relief without Moylan was probably the worst in Baseball. So a lot need to happen here between now and Spring Training and I think it does’nt just rest on the players shoulders we have some coaches and some upper management that needs a strong look at. Seriously Disappointed and Embarrassed Braves Fan Paul Jenkins
Scandal Celebrity Gossip
September 29th, 2011
9:53 am
[...] preemptive strike іn Atlanta, whеrе fans wеrе аѕkеd tο select scapegoats — BEFORE Wednesday’s galling 13-inning [...]
Red Sox more likely than Braves to see changes « News Hub Today
September 29th, 2011
10:10 am
[...] or discontent, the blame game became a preemptive strike in Atlanta, where fans were asked to select scapegoats — BEFORE Wednesday’s galling 13-inning [...]
Jeffsbandwagon
September 29th, 2011
10:31 am
Don’t be so fast to jump on Hayward, look what you did to Francouer –wouldnt the Braves like to have an outfielder with the year he just had ?— 20 hr 87 rbi .285 and 22 SB-they just tossed him away and yet he’s a career 270 hitter with 20 hr and 80 rbi avg per year and one of the best defensive OF in MLB –naw they couldn’t use him
- On Point w/ Sean Napfel
September 29th, 2011
10:33 am
[...] or discontent, the blame game became a preemptive strike in Atlanta, where fans were asked to select scapegoats — BEFORE Wednesday’s galling 13-inning [...]
Jonny
September 29th, 2011
10:49 am
Jeffsbandwagon – - You’re comparing apples and oranges… Fancouer was given several years to produce and he continued to get worse. Now, pointing to his numbers on a perenial loser like KC with a lot less expectations or pressure is just not logical. How long do you give players a chance to improve before moving on? 3 years? 5 years? 7?
Red Sox more likely than Braves to see changes | blacxbox.com
September 29th, 2011
11:01 am
[...] or discontent, the blame game became a preemptive strike in Atlanta, where fans were asked to select scapegoats — BEFORE Wednesday’s galling 13-inning [...]
rammajamma56
September 29th, 2011
11:30 am
Everyone is to blame, baseball is a team sport and the team collapsed. Everyone deserves a piece of the blame derek lowe didnt blow this lead, Chipper didnt lose those games, the braves did and thats the pure and simple fact. You could point the finger at whoever you want but it wont change anything. The only thing we can do now is look to how we can improve next year because the book to this one is closed for the braves, no use dwelling on it
Al
September 29th, 2011
12:26 pm
It seems strange to me that most (if not all) of the Braves think they are home run hitters – why not tell them that you can win by getting timely singles and doubles consistently instead of swinging wildly all the time? Sure, some of them (e.g. Ugla, McCann) can do it) but not all.
john
September 29th, 2011
1:21 pm
Before castimg your Blame Poll , look back at last six weeks of this Season :
-Pitching-forget Braves injuries to Hanson,Moylan,Medlin and Jurrgeans and look at quality of Opponents Pitching -I know some was due to Braves poor clutch hitting but Nationals, Mets and Marlins thew top form pitcheing against Braves consistently the past Month- -the best these Pitchers had performed all season plus Phillies thew usual top form against Brave-In all my years of watching Braves I have never seen opposing Pitching to be so good so often-Braves were over aggressive as Seson wound down but most of the balls they swung at looked on replaysto be in the strike zone, lots at 94/95/96,inhittable change-ups and lots at the corners-just a QUALITY that mediocre Batters just cannot HIT
-Still plenty of BLAME for Manager and Players(Lowe,Uggla-1st half-Jason ,Prado and terrible Relievers-Proctor , Lindbrink)
Demps
September 29th, 2011
2:57 pm
Derek Lowe did not pruduce due to acute alcoholism. Look at his face, puffy eyes, sweats and gets redfaced with little exertion, no zip on his pitches. He got to old to handle the alcohol.
Ted
September 29th, 2011
3:09 pm
Not enough people evaluate Frank Wren bc he is under the radar, not in a uniform, but he has done an awful job in my judgment. Consider the Schuerholtz acquisitions compared to his confusing moves, i.e. signing Uggla and leaving Prado positionless and rudderless, signing Lowe at 15m, taking part of the contract on Linebrink, and having no bench strength at all.
Captain Jack Sparrow
September 29th, 2011
3:29 pm
The only keepers for this team, and I’m talking about the starting 8, is McCann, Bourne, Freeman, Uggla and Prado. The rest can be traded or released and then start from scratch. Lowe needs to be dumped as do most of the coaching staff. The bullpen was definitely over used over the summer and it cost dearly in the end. Pitching and defense is great but when you’ve used your bullpen and the offense is horribly bad, how do you expect to win any games let alone the close ones. Frank Wren needs to assemble a explosive offense to go along with the good pitching they have over the winter. ( And no retreads! )
Barry in Boise
September 29th, 2011
5:13 pm
I now live in Idaho but followed the Braves throughout my 33 years in Georgia. This year I watched only one game, number 162. And it was just like old times. So my suggestion to improve the Braves is this. Place a plaque, carved in stone, in the Braves bullpen with the words “Except for John Smoltz, they couldn’t find ANYONE who could throw a strike”.
George Washington
September 29th, 2011
10:40 pm
FG says he’s keeping the coaching staff intact. He’s satisfied with their performance. He and the staff need to find another job. Wren should go as well. Start over with a staff that wants a WS win not a staff satisfied with an above .500 record. Don’t ask c. jones a damn thing! Get rid of the whole staff and start over. Get a HUNGRY group of guys and end the buddy-buddy system in Atlanta. The fans can only take so much and need to see a serious effort to improve. We’re tired of teams that are close much less teams with no heart. A change is needed and needed soon.
KME
September 30th, 2011
6:07 pm
What about OJ? He seemed to do a pretty good job of it in CA!
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