Poll: Who should get most blame for Braves’ collapse?
Here's two of your biggest targets: Derek Lowe and Fredi Gonzalez. (Curtis Compton/AJC)
I write this knowing that there’s still a very good chance the Braves (with Tim Hudson on the mound) will win tonight’s game against Philadelphia (which starts Joe Blanton) and at least force a one-game playoff for the wild card spot Thursday in St. Louis.
I write this knowing that if the Braves get into the playoffs, strange things have been known to happen in postseasons. And, seriously, it’s not like either potential divisional opponent, Milwaukee or Arizona, is some indestructible force.
Loading ...But as the Braves drag a four-game losing streak and 10-19 record over the past five weeks into the Phillies game, here’s the question: Who’s to blame for this collapse?
I’ve got my own feelings on this. But to be honest, I think I’m still in shock over the developments and, well, I’m still processing it all. A column will be forthcoming at some point. For now, I wanted to get your thoughts and post a poll on the topic.
I can’t list every player and team official. So I’ll just list a handful of candidates with a quick synopsis on each.
Here we go:
• Frank Wren: It’s his team. He built it. He made a solid move at the trade deadline for Michael Bourn, who has played well, but the Braves are only 26-26 with him in the lineup. So did Wren make the right move. Uggla looked like a good signing but results are mixed. There’s also the hangover over of the Derek Lowe and Kenshin Kawakami contracts, which has limited flexibility in moves.
• Fredi Gonzalez: He is the favorite whipping boy for a lot of folks. I’m not quite there yet. Gonzalez has made a ton of bold moves: taking Chipper Jones out of the No. 3 hole, benching Jason Heyward, changing lineups, shuffling batting orders. There’s only so much he can do. Starting Lowe on Tuesday obviously backfired in a major way. The flip side: You understand the concern of a manager starting his fourth rookie pitcher (Julio Teheran) in a pennant race. Then again, there’s this: It’s the manager’s job to get his team to play better. Obviously, that’s not happening right now.
• Larry Parrish: He is the new hitting coach. The Braves are not hitting. Many of you folks dumped on Terry Pendleton. So how do you feel about the job Parrish is doing?
• Derek Lowe: When Tommy Hanson and Jair Jurrjens went down with injuries, the Braves just needed Lowe to be halfway decent. Two more wins from Lowe and they’re not even in this position. But now he’s a mess.
• Dan Uggla: He’s back to his first-pitch, over-swinging, let-me-save-the-world-in-one-at-bat habits. Not good.
• Jason Heyward: He has been a major disappointment in year two, and the problems appear to go beyond him just having his swing messed up by injuries.
• Martin Prado: Personally, I think his season has hurt more than anything. Prado was Mr. Everything last season but this year has struggled, had some ailments and never got into rhythm.
• Brian McCann: He’s another guy who was counted on to be a major run producer. But clearly he is banged up. I debated even putting him on the list but he is this team’s potential cleanup hitter.
That’s it. You’ll notice I’m not listing Chipper Jones. If you want to discuss him below, that’s fine. But I’m not going to list him on the poll. I find it crazy that anybody would pin the team’s problems on him. He’s hitting .280 (No. 2 on the team) with 18 homers (No. 4) and 69 RBIs (No. 4). The man is 39 years old and being held together with duct tape. In terms of production, exactly what was it you expected?
OK, have at it. Who gets the most blame for what has been going on?
By Jeff Schultz
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699 comments Add your comment
ph
September 28th, 2011
4:11 pm
Fredi is the next Bobby Cox, both have overused the bullpen big time. Lowe sucks and I hope they just eat his contract next season and tell him to stay home.
Popeye3311
September 28th, 2011
4:13 pm
Jeff- you intimate that there is more than meets the casual eye regarding Heyward. Is he getting along or is there personal issues that are messing him up?
Robert
September 28th, 2011
4:13 pm
“No matter how you want to spin it, Francoeur on this team would be a GREAT upgrade to what we have. He produces year after year,”
Franceour’s average WAR is about 0.9. Between 0 and 2 is considered a replacement player
Franceour is a replacement player who is being used as a starter. Aptly enough, he plays for the Royals
I agree with whoever said he is one of the worst players who still manages to hold down a starting job in the big leagues
Now, there’s worse things than being the worst starting player in the major leagues – but that doesnt mean the Braves would be better off if they went out and added the worst starting player in the major leagues to their roster
Jay Dubu
September 28th, 2011
4:13 pm
“I write this knowing that there’s still a very good chance the Braves (with Tim Hudson on the mound) will win tonight’s game against Philadelphia (which starts Joe Blanton) and at least force a one-game playoff for the wild card spot Thursday in St. Louis.”
Unless Hudson is going to drive some runs in, the Braves chances are the same as they were in games 1 and 2 of this series.
You can not win, if you do not score!!!
Scoots
September 28th, 2011
4:14 pm
I think the biggest cause is the overworked bullpen. We would have clinched a week ago if not for these blown saves that are clearly due to the fatigue of Kimbrell and especially Venters.
Some of this is due to starting pitchers – namely Lowe- not being able to last more than 4-5 innings. But it’s also the conservative managerial style of Fredi who is inclined to pull the starters at the first sign of trouble. Lowe was never really intended to be the ace of the staff, but he was definitely signed with the expectation of an ‘inning eater’ – and he’s not been that lately.
Now that I think about it though, the hitting plain sucks – up and down the lineup. I’m going with Blame Parrish.
Phoenix Falcon
September 28th, 2011
4:14 pm
Go D-Backs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
taxman
September 28th, 2011
4:14 pm
I blame the entire team. They have no desire to win. They take pitches down the middle and then swing at pitches in the dirt or a foot outside. They seem to just want to go home. Freddie has made some terrible moves and the pitching stinks but if they don’t score any runs they cannot win. I agree that Bourn has not panned out like I thought he would and I still don’t understand why Prado is playing and Constanza is on the bench. I thought him and Bourn played well together and made the game interesting in trying to manufucture some runs which they haven’t done since he quit playing. It is enough fault to go around from all the players, the manager, and Wren as well. They just stink. I hope their season is over after tonight and hopefully this will turn some higher up heads. The Cardinals want to win and the braves don’t in my opinion. The way they are playing they would just be an embrassment to the fans in the playoffs so they make as take their licks and go home. They don’t deserve the playoffs.
Reality Check
September 28th, 2011
4:15 pm
I was really hoping to see Liberty Media as an option. I’d have clicked them in a heartbeat.
Reality Check
September 28th, 2011
4:17 pm
Schultzie, thanks for telling it like it is. You’re my favorite sports writer!
Tdavis
September 28th, 2011
4:18 pm
Theres enough blame to go around for everybody
ringo
September 28th, 2011
4:19 pm
piss-on frenchy talk–he’s gone ttgl
Necromancer
September 28th, 2011
4:19 pm
I have to blame the cheap ownership of Liberty Media. I’ve blamed them from Day 1. The Braves have been prone to mediocrity ever since MLB allowed those skin flints to buy the Braves.
My prayer is that Liberty will go ahead and sell the Braves. That corporation has done nothing by cheapen a once proud franchise…
Nuff said!
chase
September 28th, 2011
4:21 pm
It always starts and ends with the COACH…if they don’t make it…FREDI must go…and this is coming from a guy who wanted him here! He was gutsy, with fire and passion in Florida, he gets here and becomes a “cap tipping” “jeewhiz” “business as usual” guy….not what we needed!
Disappointed bravo fan
September 28th, 2011
4:22 pm
This team has no fire. Their emotions for the most part are subdued. They play with the same enthusiam that I have when I get up at 5 am to go to work every Monday morning!
tallyman
September 28th, 2011
4:24 pm
If you are going to start Lowe you need and had to have someone already warmed up at 1st sign that he wasnt going to have his stuff!!
tallyman
September 28th, 2011
4:24 pm
Its called planing ahead!!
Robert
September 28th, 2011
4:25 pm
Wouldnt it be something if Jordan Schafer made the big play for the Astros to beat the Cardinals?
Michael Bourn has been a minor upgrade from Schafer – but not much more
Orlandobrave
September 28th, 2011
4:26 pm
I think Fredi. Down the stretch he kept the same line up (aside from switching Heyward n Diaz.
David Ross played one game recently and had two hits. I’m not saying bench McCann but he’s not himself. Put Constanza in 2 hole or bat him 9th. Switch it up, change things around.
It’s hard to blame Gonzalez for the bullpen, though. The bullpen was taxed because of decent (not overwhelming) starting pitching and the offense was scoring 2 runs per game and we were in a dog
fight every night.
After Fredi:
1. Heyward
2. Lowe
3. Lance
4. Wren
Go Braves..
Mozelle's
September 28th, 2011
4:29 pm
Liberty Media selling the team would probably have little impact on the payroll overall. Liberty Media, like most owners, operates the franchise within the constraints of its revenue. Basically, if the Braves brought in more money, then they can increase payroll. The point is that while an owner who will operate the franchise at a loss just to try to win would be excellent, its unrealistic. In fact the Braves probably put more of their revenue into payroll than most teams because the Braves are one of few teams with 0 stadium debt. Obviously I don’t know the specific numbers that aren’t open to the public, but raising the payroll some thing like 40mil isn’t gonna happen unless they get sold to an owner who is willing to sink another 40 mil into the franchise on top of what he just paid to buy them. Unlikely and unrealistic.
BUZZ 2011
September 28th, 2011
4:31 pm
Whoever the manager is…………
Mikey
September 28th, 2011
4:31 pm
Come on, it’s obvious that McCann, Prado & Heyward have not played up to their potential post injuries, but HOW many teams in baseball history that are in playoff contention have a starting pitcher with 17 friggin losses an .era over 5.05??? Teheran, Minor and Delgado should have been taking Lowe’s starts 3 months ago and we would be leading by 10 games. Lowe had 34 starts and only 14 were considered quality?????? Management is clueless!!!
Tom G
September 28th, 2011
4:31 pm
Diaz is a vet, maybe that is why he is playing? Or just maybe, if you played Constanza and he went 3-4 and stole a couple bases, you would be second-guessed for the rest of your life for not playing him more instead of JasonH? Just curious about something else – I have not seen Franceour name in box scores of KC’s last 3 games, think maybe something going on? I think KC had a young minor -league prospect playing RF position? I wonder?
DawgDad
September 28th, 2011
4:36 pm
It’s not fair to single out one person when the team tanks in this manner, so I did not vote. It’s the combination of all-of-the-above, with more burden on the shoulders of the core of veteran players who just aren’t producing as expected. The core veterans on this team, excepting Hudson, have all been disappointing and in one way or another have not fulfilled expectations commensurate with their salaries, and I do not excuse the GM or Manager. If they write themselves into the record book with an all-time epic collapse they should all share the shame.
Wren: Paying far too many millions for sub-standard production. Uggla looks like the next albatross around this team’s neck. Infante and Vasquez deals were mistakes, plain and simple, as was NOT pulling the trigger on Hunter Pence.
Freddi: I never faulted him for anything until he made two fatal mistakes last night, starting Lowe and not pinch-hitting for him in the bottom of the third. Basically, by the bottom of the third he had canned his responsibilities as manager. Should have played Ross more, should have pitched a parade of kids instead of Lowe.
Bourn: Joining the crowd with a late-season tailspin.
Prado: Injury-related or not, he’s been bad offensively and in the number two slot.
Jones: It may not be his fault he’s old and brittle, but then again he cashes pay checks Albert Pujols would accept.
Uggla: Effectively, Troy Glaus with knees. He had one good month-and-a-half, the rest of the year he’s played like Diory Hernandez.
AGon: Great defense but the OBP has been a killer. Now he’s hurt when needed.
McCann: Major, major disappointment. Just hope it isn’t career-threatening eye or back problem.
Lowe: Can he sink lower? (pun intended)
They can rally and make all this nonsense disapear, but do they even believe any more? Is there anything left in the tank at all, or are these guys running on fumes?
Monarch
September 28th, 2011
4:37 pm
Fred should have gone to a 4 man rotation and left Lowe out in the bullpen. He’s paid to make tough decisions and couldn’t do it.
Tom G
September 28th, 2011
4:39 pm
WhereisConstanza – Franceour developed a fierce competitive spirit playing football at Parkview HS here in Gwinnett County. I believe it carried over to his baseball days and toughen him up more so than most baseball guys. It might be interesting to see which players were two sport(football & baseball) guys and what their duralibility is compared to one sport guys?
James
September 28th, 2011
4:42 pm
Jason Heyward slacks off and should have been demoted to minor league. Prado star power has been sorely missed.
autiger88
September 28th, 2011
4:43 pm
Id like to see a manager with some fire. Tired of these passive coaches. That works when you have a solid staff and lineup (like the Phils). When you got half the team hurt, you need to be more aggressive and take some risks. Play hit and run some. Speed never slumps.
IHEARTCARROLL
September 28th, 2011
4:44 pm
I will be interested to look back at this team in 3 years. Not counting the rookies who will naturally mature, who else on this team do you expect to be signifigantly better than they are right now?
I think they are what they are. Good but not great.
David Groves
September 28th, 2011
4:48 pm
Put a fork in the Braves – It’s sad but the collapse resembles a sink hole devouring the entire city of Atlanta. Unexpected and unwanted but nonetheless real. This team has nothing going for it at this point in way of tangible assets to take into the playoffs. They are done! D-U_N done!
Paul Hewitt
September 28th, 2011
4:50 pm
I blame the AJC sportswriters. If they had written more favorable articles about the Braves then the Braves would have clinched the WC a long time ago. Fire the sportswriters!
DawgDad
September 28th, 2011
4:51 pm
“Fred should have gone to a 4 man rotation and left Lowe out in the bullpen. He’s paid to make tough decisions and couldn’t do it.”
I would contend he’s been paid to not upset the apple cart. They may want to re-think that over the winter.
Felix
September 28th, 2011
4:52 pm
I am still angry about Frodo starting that overpaid loser Lowe last night.
Tom G
September 28th, 2011
4:52 pm
Could we send Bourn, Pence and Keppinger back to Houston for the final game tonite with Cards? Sorry, I just woke up from long nap!
Big Daddy Cool
September 28th, 2011
4:54 pm
To all of you that want Fredi fired, please remember that Bobby Cox won 90 games only once in his last 5 years as manager of this team and lost in the 1st round of the playoffs the last 5 years the team made the playoffs. If you want to play the blame game, look in the clubhouse, not the coaching staff or the upper management. It’s easy to blame the manager, but he’s not swinging the bat or throwing pitches, the players who are making millions are. Let’s break this down. First and foremost, this game is a business and all about money and greed. Secondly, upper management should be blamed for not making sensible trades and free agent signings. The Franceour trade should have never been made, especially with the production that Nate McLouth has provided the team. Right handed hitting outfielder? How about that 27 year old guy in KC who’s hitting .285, with 47 doubles, 20 homers, 87 RBIs and 22 SBs, who’s about to enter the prime of his career. Matt Diaz should have never been allowed to leave after last season, he would have been the perfect platoon player when Heyward started struggling in May. How dare he only drive in 31 runs in 224 ABs last year! By the way, that projects to around 80 RBIs over a full season, and currently only one player has 80 RBIs. So, I guess that half season in purgatory Pittsburgh showed him. Now we get to get to Mr. Lowe. Upper management signs a 35 year old pitcher who has a 54-48 record over the last 4 years to a 4 year, 60 million dollar contract, all because they lost out on A.J. Burnett. So, the “big time postseason pitcher” comes to town and promptly goes 40-39 over the last 3 years, and has started 1 playoff game. Probably should have talked to Warren Buffet about that investment first. Lastly, Chipper, why are you playing next season? I love you man, but c’mon!!! You are no longer the face of this team, you don’t need the money, and this team isn’t going to win a championship with a part-time 3rd baseman or 3 hole hitter. Please change your mind, walk away, and allow Fredi to put Prado at 3rd next season. In closing, Jason, call Tony Gwynn, who had a .338 career average and could hit the ball to all fields. Pay him whatever he ask because it will come back to you tenfold if you do. You need to learn how to make adjustments at the plate and from at-bat to at-bat or or you will continue to hurt this team. You’re not going to wake up one morning and be able to hit .280. If I were you and had your talent, I’d have to have a new pair of batting gloves each week because I’d be wearing them out in the batting cage. Go Braves!!!
Terry Pendleton
September 28th, 2011
4:55 pm
Fire Parrish!!
No Blame, No Accountability
September 28th, 2011
4:56 pm
The fact is the Braves are not going to blame anyone for the collapse! This is a country club. They don’t like to step on anyone’s toes. Fredi will be back. Wren will be back. Players who want to come back will be able to come back. Even though a symbolic gesture might be made to look like they are changing by firing Parrish, I would not be surprised if he comes back!
The Braves will look next year very much the same as they look now. You don’t have a historic meltdown like the Braves had and not roll some heads, but I bet anything the Braves will keep their coaching staff, management team and start the media Hype by making Heyward the face of the franchise and try to start selling 2012 season tickets.
And if the fans eat it up and fall for the same old crap marketing, then they deserve what they get!
Mikey
September 28th, 2011
4:57 pm
1) You can’t steal first base
2) Beside Bourn/Constanza we got no speed
3) Anyone notice that castoff Melky Cabrera had 201 hits and ba. of .305
Jay Dubu
September 28th, 2011
4:57 pm
@WhereisConstanza ,
Francoeur played on the Royals, who were out of contention mid June.
Look at Melky Cabrera’s numbers this season with the Royals. He had a career best year. .305 BA, 18 HR, 102 runs, 44 doubles, 20 stolen bases….don’t try to convince me that he’s as good as those stats, because I watched him with the Braves last season, and with the Yankees before that.
A lopt of that is the fact that he played on a team that was playing for fun, and did not have the expectation of competing for a playoff spot.
Ditto on Frenchy!!! Next subject please!
Spud
September 28th, 2011
4:58 pm
The Braves are young and their system is supposedly loaded with talent. Neither the Braves or Cards have much chance of even making it to the World Series this year, much less winning it. By 2013 the Braves could knock the Phillies out of first. Be patient Grasshopper!
No Blame, No Accountability
September 28th, 2011
5:01 pm
Is Fredi even calling the shots or is he just the guy filling out the lineup card while Wren and company decide the real direction the Braves go.
Example: Constanza=Fredi praised=Fredi benched=Fredi put Heyward back in.
Constanza= Braves won Heyward = Braves cooled off
I wonder if Fredi made the call to get Heyward back in the lineup or if Wren did?
Jay Dubu
September 28th, 2011
5:01 pm
@UF in a mirror is FU
Hamels and Oswalt are more on par with Hanson and JJ. Oswalt missed a chunk of the season, but Hamels only missed a few starts.
SW Ga Expert
September 28th, 2011
5:02 pm
If Wren had been willing to give up one or even two of the top pitching prospects who offer no sure thing that they will be top winners maybe he could have gotten Hunter Pense along with Bourne. An everyday player for 4 or 5 years agains a prospect every 5th day. perhaps an even swap for Heyward would have done it. Go figure.
Dick
September 28th, 2011
5:03 pm
Gonzalez – who else can you blame the tired arms on? Although maybe we need to go all the way back to Cox since he was the pioneer of “wear and tear”.
IHEARTCARROLL
September 28th, 2011
5:04 pm
Hope your right Spud. In any event, I appreciate the positive thinking.
No Blame, No Accountability
September 28th, 2011
5:05 pm
“The Braves are young and their system is supposedly loaded with talent. Neither the Braves or Cards have much chance of even making it to the World Series this year, much less winning it. By 2013 the Braves could knock the Phillies out of first. Be patient Grasshopper!”
The Mets still haven ‘t recovered from their meltdown of 2007. It’s something that stays with a team as long as they keep the same cast of characters.
I wouldn’t be too excited about 2013 after seeing the talent the Nats, Mets and even the Marlins have coming along.
gbal
September 28th, 2011
5:06 pm
You dont have to blame anyone Shultz. Baseball is a streaky game. The same players and management that built the 10 game lead has had a bad streak and lost it. Some injuries have contributed but you cant pick a person to blame for gods sake!! Sportswriter of vulture?
Scoots
September 28th, 2011
5:06 pm
Lineup tonight: 1.Bourn 2. Prado 3. Jones 4. Uggla 5. Freeman 6. McCann 7. Diaz 8. Wilson 9. Huddy
Tom G
September 28th, 2011
5:07 pm
JayDubu – Interesting point, Melky and Jeff played on a team that was having a lot of fun! They both had very good years, and I do not believe National League pitching is far superior to American League, do you? Make the game fun again, Braves.
Tom G
September 28th, 2011
5:08 pm
Scoots – Huddy should be hitting ahead of Wilson?
ATLcracker
September 28th, 2011
5:08 pm
It’s clearly Wren. The bad contracts to Lowe, Kawakami, Mclouth, Sherrill, Proctor and Linebrink were all unnecessary and crippled this team. There turned out to be better options already in the system and these players blocked their advance. The wasted money could have resulted in a gold plated lineup/staff if spent correctly. The failure of Lowe and the lower end of the bullpen (and the injury to Moylan) resulted in the almost criminal overuse of O’flaherty/Venters/ Kimbrel which may hurt us worse in the future than anything else that happened this season if they break down. Most of the other player failures were due to injuries.