Pitt, Syracuse move ACC ahead in college hypocrisy derby
That's SEC's Mike Slive to left and ACC's John Swofford in middle. Each plot to take over world.
Congratulations ACC: You just killed a conference.
Funny. That never was mentioned in the ACC-Syracuse-Pittsburgh teleconference Sunday morning. It was all about patting each other on the back and — let me quote John Swofford directly: “This is a monumental day in the history of our league.”
The Big East? Collateral damage.
The ACC confirmed this morning what had been speculated for a few days: It walked through the back door of the Big East when nobody was looking and the lights were turned out and heisted Syracuse and Pitt from the Big East. And the buildings in college sports Armageddon continue to crumble.
Wake me when college presidents hold their next press conference on the virtues of amateur athletics and academic reform.
After Pacific 10 expansion (with more to come), and impending SEC expansion with Texas A&M (with more to come) and Big Ten expansion (with more to come), the ACC again proved it’s just as bad as the rest of them.
Tradition and regional rivalries and all the makes college sports so wonderfully unique just took another hit. This all comes with a fatter television contract serving as the primary — make that only — motivating factor. The next college president who waves the flag of amateurism gets a pie in the face.
Just can’t wait for those natural geographic rivalry games between Syracuse and Wake Forest, and Pitt and Clemson. The ACC will now have 14 members spread over nine states: Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, New York and Massachusetts.
When do they move north into the Maritimes or south into Cuba? The conference schedule should come with a GPS. Or a rail pass. Or a space shuttle.
When the Big East folds into oblivion — or at least is rendered meaningless on the college sports landscape — it can point to the ACC as the relative Axis powers, having lost five schools to the conference: Boston College, Miami, Virginia Tech, Pitt, Syracuse.
Yeah, I guess I’m just old. I’ve been banging on this drum for weeks. What others see as progress, I see as a wrecking ball. Four 16-team conferences, which is where we’re headed, accomplishes nothing in the big picture.
All it does is shoot the big picture full of holes.
Some Recent blogs on this topic:
• Texas A&M’s move to SEC evidence of NCAA’s lost mission
• Big 12 schools may sue if Texas A&M leaves for SEC
• Problem in college athletics isn’t kids, its guys in suits
the headache go away. We’ll know more over the next few weeks.
By Jeff Schultz
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360 comments Add your comment
Wrecker
September 18th, 2011
6:16 pm
Conferences and rivalries come and go. Tech and Va Tech were not an issue until recently, but have developed quite a rivalry recently. Tech’s rivalry with Auburn and Alabama have disappeared. The Southern and SIAC are a distant memory as football powerhouses. Tech was once in the SEC. This is too much of a an old man, “Get out of my yard” column.
It may be about money, but at least the money has allowed the broadcast of tons of games on tons of channels. More people are watching college football than ever before. The advent of vast tv rights does not appear to have affected the game day experience or attendance like in MLB. Without the tv and rights money, we would not see the massive practice complexes, great stadiums, and other perks.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
6:16 pm
I wish my computer could do that. I can’t even get stats and scores to line up. If it takes learning Python, never mind.
wreckmaniac
September 18th, 2011
6:17 pm
Are we ready for the Big 18 ?
Think About It
September 18th, 2011
6:17 pm
Jeff: Scholar athletes do exist. It’s called D-III football. You have a school in your own backyard. Whey don’t you go down and check out LaGrange College.
Wrecker
September 18th, 2011
6:17 pm
ASCII pictures. Suddenly it is 1988 again.
wreckmaniac
September 18th, 2011
6:25 pm
How much would UGA fans pay to move Florida to the ACC ?
James
September 18th, 2011
6:31 pm
With the new buyout amount raised in the ACC and the expansion into the Northeast with the additions of Pitt and Syracuse (with UConn and Rutgers on the way), the ACC will be the first 16 team super-conference. No one is leaving the ACC for the SEC. Also, I don’t think you all have been following the stories, but Texas is NOT coming to the ACC, they are currently working out a deal to go to the Pac-12 with OK, OK St, and TT. They are hammering out the deals of the Longhorn Network and the revenue sharing with the rest of the PAC teams. ACC has just guaranteed it will be one of the 4 super conferences. Also, I do think that the Rose Bowl will be a de-facto Nat’l Championship play-in playing the winner of the SEC Champ vs. ACC Champ in either the Sugar or Orange bowl (probably the two will rotate each year as the play-in game). Thoughts?
Paul in NH (formerly RDU)
September 18th, 2011
6:34 pm
Delbert – You are correct about the no love lost between UVA and VT. One of the UVA fans favorite jokes: “all dirt roads lead to Blacksburg, VA”. It’s a similar relationship as UNC and NCSU – although both schools are united in their disdain for ECU.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
6:34 pm
Wrecker – I don’t need the old yellow-paper teletype to do it, do I? That’s what I learned BASIC on, connected to the school’s mainframe with the 300-baud earcup modem.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
6:38 pm
Paul – Oh, yes. Another of my long-time best friends was an NC State grad in engineering, and grew up in the state. He hated the air of superiority of UNC people. “They just think they are so much better” is the way he often put it. He worked with CP&L before I met him.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
6:45 pm
The one thing about the exit from the Big East I haven’t seen discussed or reported is the 27 month notice requirement. A NYTimes’ column yesterday did mention that Pitt had sent a letter to the Big East in May 2010 that they would act in their own best interest over the Big East’s.
Steve
September 18th, 2011
6:46 pm
So sad. “Congratulations ACC: You just killed a conference”
I think I heard that line before. Back when Miami and BC left the Big East for the ACC. Hate to tell ya this, but the big East survived .. and some might say that the Big East has been more relative in both college football and obviously in college basketball since that time.
Maybe this collapses the Big East, but I doubt it. Pittsburgh was jsut waitign for an invite from the Big Ten, ACC or SEC .. so that loss was coming no matter what. Syracuse wanted to make some money and quite frankly, football is where it’s at .. and the Big East TV contracts for football are terrible. Not to mention the SEC would have likely been looking ata couple of possible Big East teams to join them as soon as the aTm move becomes official.
No Jeff, the ACC did not kill the Big East. The Big East is too potent in basketball to fail. My guess is they invite a few more football schools and roll right on along. Maybe Toledo, UCF, Temple Ball St, East Carolina, or Marshall. They all make sense location wise and are all decent enough in football to help fill in the losses (lets face it, Pitt and Cuse haven’t exactly been relevant in football since the early 80’s for the most part).
The ACC helped to protect ITSELF from being torn asunder. If the SEC came in and threw invites to the likes of FSU, Miami, Clemson .. or the more likely VaTech and BC (for TV markets), then the ACC would have been in major panic mode from a football sense. They had to act first, similar to the Pac 10, since they aren’t the top dog in the hunt. Smart move by the ACC quite frankly, even though I am not sure I like the whole super-conference idea myself).
The U
September 18th, 2011
6:53 pm
When this none issue in South Beach gets resovled, the Canes and the Noles coming to the SEC.
BIG fan
September 18th, 2011
6:59 pm
The real culprit behind this is ESPN. It seems that ESPN is doing everything in its power to convince the Texas alums to keep the Big 12 intact, or to get Texas to go to the PAC12 in order to maintain ESPN’s investment in the LHN. There are sources indicating that Texas and ND have both presented to the BIG. I expect there to be some interesting news coming out of Chicago around BIG expansion.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
7:01 pm
James – The Rose Bowl currently has a contract with the PAC-12 and Big Ten, although the BCS has complicated it. If the PAC-12 champ gets a bid to the BCSCG (like Oregon last year) the rose Bowl is obligated to take a highly-ranked independent to play against a Big Ten team. I think at least 3 of the bowl deals are going to change with expansion fallout involving Texas and Oklahoma, who both or singly may end up in the PAC-12, and the potential demise of both the Big 12 and the Big East or some reconfiguration of those 2 conferences with each other.
These bowl alliances with conferences are more related to more recent history than rooted in tradition. I grew up in an era where bowls would approach schools late in the season and gauge mutual interest, and there weren’t that many bowls. Notre Dame didn’t accept bids, and the Big Ten champion went to the Rose Bowl, and that was it. The Big Ten didn’t allow a team to appear in consecutive Rose Bowls.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
7:10 pm
Steve – You touched on something very significant. After the first exodus of Big East teams in 2003. The Big East reconfigured and then engaged in TV contract discussions to get on a par with the ACC. Pitt and Rutgers led the opposition to the deal, which was ultimately rejected. The NYTimes had an article yesterday that included that info.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
7:27 pm
Big fan – “or to get Texas to go to the PAC12 in order to maintain ESPN’s investment in the LHN.”
Therein lies the problem. The PAC-12 and Texas’ LHN are not compatible. The PAC-12 currently has the new richest conference TV deal with ESPN and FOX $2.7 billion for 12 years. It also has it’s own PAC-12 Network owned by the conference (unlike the Big Ten Network) with 4 cable companies signed on and satellite and phone companies in process. It has 3 components: regional coverage for each 2-member state (plus Colorado and Utah); a conference-wide coverage package; and a national coverage package. For football, 35 games will be broadcast initially on the network. The others will be picked up by ESPN and Fox. Basketball and other PAC-12 sporting events are part of the network, over 700 a year in all.
The PAC-12 has told UT that the Longhorn Network must be structured to fit within the PAC-12 scheme of doing business; furthermore, UT would not be allowed to retain ownership. These are points to be negotiated, of course.
jeff
September 18th, 2011
7:29 pm
I love these ACC boosters talking trash about the Big East. Remind me again who has basically dominated your conference in the last 7 years? Oh yeh, V. Tech, yet another former BE team. The previous BE teams who defected were supposed to have big problems entering the ACC, and the opposite has happened.
Wrecker
September 18th, 2011
7:34 pm
Thanks, Jeff. Of course, once these teams joined the ACC, they were no longer Big East teams. Moreover, wasn’t Miami supposed to come and dominate? Not so much, huh?
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
7:47 pm
To which “ACC boosters” are you referring, jeff?
lostandfound
September 18th, 2011
7:47 pm
The conference commissions have taken over college football. The NCAA and the presidents need to regain control. All the conferences need to be disbanded for at least two years. Let the school handle their own scheduling. The NCAA could then add college football “FBS” to the rest of college athletics with a playoff. These conference commissioners are like sharks at a feeding frenzy! They are putting the final ruin on major college football!
TexGT
September 18th, 2011
7:56 pm
James – you are went about Texas. They wanted ACC because of ESPNs joint contract with ACCand LHN.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
8:04 pm
The conference commissions, or more accurately “commissioners” don’t have the authority for these decisions; the university presidents do. The commissioners of the Big East and Big 12 are trying to come up with contingency plans for these occurring events, and the commissioners of the SEC, Big Ten and PAC-12 are evaluating their situations with multiple scenarios; that is their job. 12 university presidents in a room on a daily basis is an absurd scenario. They don’t have the time to pursue every little detail. Authority up to a defined point can be delegated, but responsibility cannot.
The NCAA doesn’t have these decisions within its scope of authority.
GSO Jacket
September 18th, 2011
8:07 pm
Actually, the current ACC expansion is really quite different than described by Mr. Schultz. If you want to know the real story, click on this link to Ed Hardin’s article in the Greensboro News-Record: http://www.news-record.com/content/2011/09/18/article/hardin_acc_wins_big_by_playing_its_game.
GTman
September 18th, 2011
8:09 pm
I know you’d like everybody else to just sit back and let the SEC make the moves they want first and every other conference to pick up the scraps. Sorry dude, the ACC was not going to just to sit back and let the conference fall apart while other conferences made their deals. Kudos to Swofford and the presidents.
Now the ACC needs to add Texas and Missouri. This would make a great football, basketball and baseball conference.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
8:12 pm
GSO Jacket – That link doesn’t work; the period at the end is the problem. Good article.
Coaches react to conference shake-up – ESPN (blog) | My Football Search
September 18th, 2011
8:28 pm
[...] Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) [...]
James
September 18th, 2011
8:44 pm
This blog gives the best explanation of what seems to be looming and how the Super Conferences will probably work: http://www.collegefootballcafeteria.com/expansion/how-college-football-will-work-with-superconferences/?wpc=dlc#comment-1649
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
8:52 pm
Quote from ESPN:
“A source close to the Oklahoma athletic department told SoonerNation’s Jake Trotter it’s expected that the Oklahoma board of regents will vote Monday to authorize president David Boren to take action regarding conference realignment.
The source said Pittsburgh was one of the Big 12’s top options as a replacement for Texas A&M, and that when Pitt announced it was going to the ACC, it “clobbered everything” regarding the Big 12’s future.”
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
9:17 pm
James – That was a decent summation, especially with the details on the pods. I think the Big Ten is going to have to move soon. I didn’t imagine Kansas St. along with Kansas, but if that’s what is necessary to get Notre Dame in the Big Ten, okay; I just don’t follow the guy’s logic on that. Missouri would be a better fit for the Big Ten than K. State, if they don’t align with the SEC. There seems to be a lot of blog fan opposition Mizzou on the ajc.com over the last 2 weeks. I can’t see Tulane rejoining the SEC. It makes no sense for the conference or the school. Texas A&M gives the SEC the Houston area footprint, and of course LSU has the state, so that coastal Texas-southern Louisiana is covered.
It will be interesting this week to see what happens with WVa and Louisville. One or both to the Big 12, or WVa to the SEC? It depends on Texas, who met with the PAC-12 in LA this weekend. They may be ironing out the Longhorn Network issue, allowing Texas to keep some revenues separate from the conference, and the PAC-12 keeping some PAC-12 Network revenues separate from Texas.
UConn is actively pursuing membership in the ACC, according to ESPN in another article. Mike Krzyzewski and Roy Williams are both very excited with expansion to include Pitt and Syracuse, and both are pushing for 16 teams.
PigIron
September 18th, 2011
9:35 pm
GTman
September 18th, 2011
8:09 pm
I know you’d like everybody else to just sit back and let the SEC make the moves they want first and every other conference to pick up the scraps.
The SEC is the only conference that doesn’t want to “make any moves”. They’re quite happy just as they are. It’s the PAC & the 2 BIG’s who wanted to change the game, because they can’t compete with the existing SEC in football. The ACC is only reacting now because they want to be included in whatever happens. They weren’t competitive in football to begin with when all of this started. The only way the ACC gets invited to the party is if the Big 12 falls apart and the ACC can pick up Texas and Oklahoma. VA Tech, FSU and Clemson are the only serious football programs currently in the ACC, and none of them is in the same elite class as Texas or Oklahoma.
PigIron
September 18th, 2011
9:39 pm
Does Notre Dame still play football?
DirtyBird
September 18th, 2011
9:39 pm
All of this conference calamity stems from one school. That school is the Texas Longhorns. The fact that the Big XII let them start the Longhorn Network to generate more revenue for the school rather than shop for a national deal that benefits all of the schools, the remaining Big XII schools became fed up and left. The Big XII leadership was only about supporting what was best for Texas and now the conference is going to wither away. Unfortunately, no matter how many schools are added to the Pac-12 or 16, SEC, ACC or Big 10, the main problem with college football will not be solved and will only solidify the BCS as the end all be all for the national championship.
PigIron
September 18th, 2011
9:58 pm
@DirtyBird
It may not be called the “BCS”, but there will be an umbrella organization of some type administering a playoff system for this new league. The primary objective of these machinations is to limit the number of participants, because football fans are, and have been, demanding a playoff. The simple fact is that there are too many FBS teams to implement a playoff in the existing system. Some of the deadwood has to be culled. That’s what this is really all about.
The BCS was originally formed to exclude small conference, undefeated “Cinderella” teams (like BYU) from the National Championship game. This current realignment began as an evolutionary move toward even greater exclusion. There probably aren’t 64 teams in the FBS who regularly make it into the Top 25 polls, but 64 seems to be the magic number that will make this scheme feasible.
James
September 18th, 2011
10:02 pm
Yeah, Delbert, obviously A&M will be going to the SEC, and probably West Virginia, but I’m with you and can’t imagine the SEC picking up Tulane and Louisville, but I don’t know if they’ll be left with a choice, unless they want to add Iowa State and Baylor (I think after the raising of the exit fee and the ACC probably getting to 16 before the end of the year, that the SEC won’t be able to poach any teams from there). I really think the B1G will add Mizzou, KU, K-state and Notre Dame. So, there won’t be many options for the SEC. I also agree they will be happy at 14, but 16 teams makes the most sense with regards to the scheduling as discussed on that blogger’s site.
PigIron
September 18th, 2011
10:24 pm
FSU downplays ‘informal’ talks about realignment
By BRENT KALLESTAD
Associated Press
Published: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 at 8:28 p.m.
Florida State athletic director Randy Spetman said Wednesday that while the university is keeping a watchful eye on the changing landscape of collegiate athletics, he added that the Seminoles are comfortable in the ACC.
Spetman downplayed brief `informal’ discussions some school officials have had about possible conference realignments at the end of last week’s board meeting.
“Clearly the potential for change in the college landscape has never been so dramatic,” he said. “The truth is it would appear nobody knows where everything is going to shake out at the end of the day.”
Whatever happens, Florida State can’t afford to be caught by surprise.
But trustees chairman Andy Haggard said Wednesday that it would be up to Florida State President Eric Barron to determine whether to form a committee to stay abreast of the changing landscape.
The latest move happened in the Southeastern Conference.
The SEC accepted Texas A&M as its latest member, and once the move becomes official, the SEC will have an odd number of teams at 13. Florida State has been mentioned as a possible 14th team, but Haggard said there has not been any talk with the SEC about switching leagues.
Whether FSU forms a committee to monitor the situation or not, Haggard and Spetman were clear they are closely following the developments.
“I have no magic message but we do know the collegiate structure is changing,” Spetman said. “Television has driven it to where it is.”
He said that FSU’s share of the ACC television contract is between $13 and $14 million, compared to $24 million that each of the Pac-12 conference members receive.
“The move now for extending the size of a conference is TV contracts,” Spetman said. “That’s the only way to make more money.”
If Florida State would be approached by another conference, any decision on leaving the ACC would have to be Barron’s, Haggard said. The university president was traveling Wednesday and not immediately available to comment.
Florida State’s fan base has always been split about the school’s decision to join the ACC. Most of the faculty favors being in the ACC because of the league’s academic reputation, but many of the more hard core football fans believe the school should be in the SEC.
Florida State joined the ACC in 1991 under former President Bernie Sliger. The Seminoles have won 12 ACC football championships in two decades and are favored to capture a 13th this season.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
10:25 pm
PigIron – Mike Slive is of course evaluating and strategizing. The SEC has to add another member. It can’t function well in football with an unbalanced schedule, with one division playing 6 divisional opponents and the other playing 5. Quite a few bloggers in the past 2 weeks seem to favor West Virginia over Missouri (leaving out the schools that are not moving under any circumstance). Missouri will be on the board for a short time, as they are in discussions with the Big Ten and the Big East.
Missouri borders 3 SEC states. They share a history with the south. Columbia is halfway between St. Louis and Kansas City, big TV footprint. West Virginia has no shared southern history, quite the opposite. It is in a historically mining area. Morgantown is 10 miles from the Pennsylvania border. The closest town of any size is Pittsburgh, 60 miles due north. The D.C. area is accessible best by driving halfway through extreme northern Maryland and turning south in Fredrick onto I-270. I’ve made that trip, having lived in Gaithersburg. I have no idea who the SEC wants next, but Missouri is in the position of having to take care of its interests, while leading the attempt to keep the Big 12 together.
If the SEC adds 1 other school as is expected, it will probably soon see a landscape of 16 schools in the PAC-16, 16 in the ACC, 16 in the Big Ten and a mix of leftovers from the Big East, Big 12 and C-USA. All of the “plum” schools in those 3 conferences will be in the ACC, PAC-16, Big Ten(16)…and SEC? The “Big Central” will likely have Cincinnati, TCU, Louisville, USF, WVU, Iowa St., Kansas St.and Baylor. SMU has been pursuing Big 12 membership since the conference downsized. BYU has made it known that they want to be a part of the Big 12 when it downsizes. That is 10 possibles for the Big Middle. The rest would be MWC, C-USA or MAC as the most likely sources of schools. I don’t see that as being one of the 4 superconferences.
Back in my day… « pseudodiplomat
September 18th, 2011
10:34 pm
[...] Schultz of the Atlanta Journal Constitution laments hypocrisy at the state of college sports. “Wake me when college presidents hold their next press conference on the virtues of amateur [...]
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
10:35 pm
PigIron – “There probably aren’t 64 teams in the FBS who regularly make it into the Top 25 polls, but 64 seems to be the magic number that will make this scheme feasible.”
I agree 100%. Whoever wins their division in a simple 8 school division makes the playoffs. That is 8 schools in the simplest format. Conference championships are the 1st round, the winners make the quarterfinals.
The FCS expanded their format to include 20 teams in 2010. That complicates things (even a 12-team format does) by adding teams based on rankings. This seeded tornament with first round byes would preclude a conference championship game, however.
st1ng_em
September 18th, 2011
10:35 pm
ACC needs to go ahead and get UCONN an ND. Make two divisions North and South
North
ND VT BC CONN SYR MAR UV PITT
South
FSU CLEM GT MIA DUKE UNC WAKE NCST
That would be a great alignment.
PigIron
September 18th, 2011
10:52 pm
There is no Big 12 without Texas. With Texas, the Big 12 (not the ACC) is the fourth conference.
James
September 18th, 2011
11:04 pm
Noooooo. No 8 team playoff. The 4 champions of the super conferences play each other. The Winners play in the Nat’l Championship game. That’s it. That’s the best solution. That way, conference champions are only playing other conference champions.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
11:05 pm
PigIron – “With Texas, the Big 12 (not the ACC) is the fourth conference.” Oklahoma made it clear in a meeting with Texas last week that they are leaving the Big 12. Oklahoma St. is twinned with them. Last year, the PAC-12 wanted to offer Oklahoma only as accompanied by Texas. That is not the case this year, as has been reported. I’m not sure that Texas would stay in a conference consisting of Texas Tech, Baylor, Kansas and Kansas St., or even adding SMU and BYU. Missouri will accept a Big Ten offer if it is made.
PigIron
September 18th, 2011
11:10 pm
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
10:25 pm
“Missouri borders 3 SEC states. They share a history with the south. Columbia is halfway between St. Louis and Kansas City, big TV footprint. West Virginia has no shared southern history, quite the opposite. It is in a historically mining area. Morgantown is 10 miles from the Pennsylvania border. The closest town of any size is Pittsburgh, 60 miles due north. The D.C. area is accessible best by driving halfway through extreme northern Maryland and turning south in Fredrick onto I-270. I’ve made that trip, having lived in Gaithersburg. I have no idea who the SEC wants next, but Missouri is in the position of having to take care of its interests, while leading the attempt to keep the Big 12 together.”
That’s funny Delbert. I’ve been all over both Missouri and West Virginia. College football is nothing in the state of Missouri and West Virginia shares more history with the Appalachian South than do the Ozark region residents of Missouri. Tuscaloosa is an old coal mining town. The Sabans don’t seem to be suffering from homesickness there.
Missouri is not a primary target of SEC expansion, but I could see them taking Missouri to get to 16. I can’t see them taking Tulane. I know that they have a history as a Southern football program, but so does Suwanee. Current marketability is the only relevant issue. Notre Dame is in a much weaker position than they were when the BCS was formed. I don’t think they’d make the cut into the BCS coalition if the negotiations were held today, rather than back in 1998.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
11:11 pm
James – That means segregating Division 1 further. Schools like Notre Dame, Navy, Army, Boise St. along with the many directional schools have to either play in bowls or have a third playoff system for the independents and left-out conferences.
PigIron
September 18th, 2011
11:12 pm
@Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
11:05 pm
I guess there’s no rule in place to prevent a PAC 32?
James
September 18th, 2011
11:16 pm
Delbert,
I know. ND will join the B1G. The non-super conference teams can just go to bowls. No one is/will be really crying over Boise St and the service academies being left out when you have PAC/B1G winner vs. ACC/SEC winner in the Nat’l Champ. game every year. Also won’t have multiple undefeateds from any of those 4 conferences ever again. It’s a win-win.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
11:18 pm
My dad and his father and grandfather are from the mountains of north Georgia and North Carolina,; they were gold miners. The shared one other thing with the people in what is now West Virginia: they didn’t want anything to do with the southern secession over slavery. Nevertheless, I had relatives conscripted by both sides.
Delbert D.
September 18th, 2011
11:19 pm
PigIron – Lets just jump to PAC-64 and be done with it.
PigIron
September 18th, 2011
11:23 pm
So did I. My great-great-grandfather migrated from Connecticut to Georgia for a gold mine claim. He wound up buying up neighboring claims and farming cotton rather than mining.