What’s stopping Braves, Wren from trading a pitcher?
Are Braves overvaluing pitching prospects like Mike Minor? (Hyosub Shin/AJC)
I’m going to refrain from excessive bashing of Braves general manager Frank Wren — maybe just a few jabs — until we see what (if anything) he does between now and the major league trade deadline.
But I do have one question: How much pitching does one franchise need?
The Braves apparently lost out to San Francisco in the Carlos Beltran sweepstakes in part because Wren was not willing to part with a top pitching prospect, like Mike Minor.
Loading ...It’s common in pro sports for teams to overvalue their own prospects. We know the Braves’ success since the 1990s has been built on pitching. The organization has done a wonderful job developing young arms. But dealing a pitcher for a player (like Beltran) who potentially can put a team over the top seems logical.
Let’s look at the depth chart. The Braves have five solid starters: Tommy Hanson, Tim Hudson, Jair Jurrjens, Derek Lowe and Brandon Beachy. Lowe has only one year left on his contract and conceivably may not be here even that long. Hudson is 36 years old. That still leaves three starters potentially for the long term.
The organization also has at least four top pitching prospects. Julio Teheran is the consensus No. 1. The next three, in no particular order: Minor, Randall Delgado and Arodys Vizcaino. While there’s no guarantee all will make it at the major league level, the Braves realistically only would need two of them to fill out a five-man rotation in the future (assuming Hanson, Jurrjens and Beachy are kept and stay healthy).
So why not trade one? It certainly wouldn’t qualify as mortgaging the future.
The Braves need offensive help. Chipper Jones can’t be counted on to get and stay healthy. Brian McCann is out two to three weeks. Others are either banged up, struggling or both. This is not a new problem, the McCann injury just made the situation a little more desperate.
Wren has the assets to trade to make this team better. But the deadline is only four days away, and San Francisco, one of the Braves’ competitors for a National League pennant and a World Series just got better.
By Jeff Schultz
♦
Earlier: Heyward still determined to make impact on Braves’ system
Earlier: A long night, an awful call, a Braves win led by Scott Proctor
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324 comments Add your comment
Carter
July 28th, 2011
10:07 am
Go after Adam Jones nobody is talking about it but I saw on ESPN.com in a conversation that it is thought that the Orioles would trade him in a deal centered around Minor. Why have we not done this yet I can’t think of a better fit Gold Glove Centerfielder with speed and power. Plus an A. Jones jersey would look good in centerfield again
Holoman
July 28th, 2011
10:09 am
I know that Mr. Wren is thinking back to the Texeira trade that cost him Feliz,Andrus,and another pitcher for a 2 month rental. But you don’t have to trade for a guy with a contract due to be renewed either. He needs to trade for a player with at least 2 to 3 years left on his contract like Pence. It is obvious that the big four in the minors will all never be starters on the Braves since Jurrgens,Hanson,and Beachy are set. Sure Hudson & Lowe will be replaced but it takes only two to do that not four. So choose two of them to trade for two good bats. If you can add McLouth or Gonzalez in the deal do that as well.
If Wren stands pat then he is saying without saying that he does not want to win this year.
Holoman
July 28th, 2011
10:12 am
What about Alfonso Soriano or Paul Konerko ?
STRETCH
July 28th, 2011
10:14 am
TYPICA ATLANTA GM,, MOVING SLOW ONCE AGAIN!!!
01HAWK
July 28th, 2011
10:16 am
Excerpts from sfgate.com on pitching prospect Zach Wheeler that went to the MUTTS from San Fran Giants. Kind of sickening in that the GIANTS did not giive up a top prospect for Beltran.
He is from East Paulding High School. He has control problems, He has averaged 5.8 walks per 9 innings. Does not seem like we would have had to give up any of our top pitching prospects.
WREN blew this one.
Excerpts from sfgate.com
Wheeler is no Madison Bumgarner. He’s not as talented or polished and isn’t on the fast track Bumgarner once was, so losing a Class A pitcher for someone who at worst should deliver the playoffs and at best could deliver another title is a necessary risk.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/27/SPT11KFPUV.DTL#ixzz1TPPZmCzY
Coach (2011 Fredi G. a go!)
July 28th, 2011
10:17 am
Our Braves need depth, bullpen pitching, one big bat, help in the outfield, help in the infield, help at the top of the order, an improved bench etc. etc. etc.
Frank Wren’s a smart guy, so he already knows this to be true. I’m gonna put my two cents in for one last time, hopefully somebody in the Braves organization reads what I have been working on for days.
How to meet all the team needs without breaking the budget, stripping most of the pitching depth in our farm system and fitting it all into the 40 and 25 man roster’s. I keep coming back to the Marlins and I know those guys like to retool due to their small payroll. Here is what I came up with. The Fish will want pitching. I’m giving it too them without hurting our crop of young starting pitchers.
Trading Arodys Vizcaino, Brett Oberholtzer, Paul Clemens (all pitchers) plus Brandon Hicks, Nate McLouth and Julio Lugo if the Marlins want him. In exchange: Logan Morrison, Omar Infante, Emilio Bonifacio, Edward Mujica, and minor league outfielder Marcell Ozuna.
That’s three pitchers, two infielders, one outfielder in exchange for one outfielder, two utility players, one middle relief pitcher and an OF prospect. Six for five. Even up it’s a solid, fair, smart baseball trade. Plus we pick up the tab, all of it. Our Braves pay the remaining 2011 salaries for everyone. But here’s the beautiful part. It all adds up to under 3.5 million total. Even more exciting, all these guys are young. They can all be part of the equation for years to come.
We get our big bat, outfield and infield help plus a bullpen arm. The Marlins get three young arms, two infielders, one outfielder and payroll relief. It’s doable, it really is.
Infante and Bonifacio would impact our offense, defense, bench, depth, infield, outfield plus clean out the kitchen sink. The two would give Fredi Gonzalez all kinds options for his batting order. Both can hit at the top and bottom of the order, both play six positions, both can start, come off the bench, pinch hit, pinch run….basically everything we need. Morrison is the big bat everybody craves.
There is my two cents. Can Frank Wren come up with a better mouse trap? I sure hope so but it’s highly doubtful.
Holoman
July 28th, 2011
10:17 am
Trade Mike Minor & Nate McLouth for Jose Bautista (Blue Jays OF).
the truth..
July 28th, 2011
10:18 am
I’d be interested in trading a couple of major prospects for Pence…but then I don’t know what the Strohs are demanding. Philly was hot on the Pence wagon too, and probably still are there with their big checkbook out…so that makes anyone else have to perhaps ante up more than normal.
Plus with Houston’s pending sale, the new owners have as big say in any trades. I hope big time we get a Pence but do wonder what the plans would be as to where to play him since he isn’t really a CF…more the RF type they say.
the truth..
July 28th, 2011
10:22 am
@tdc
You don’t have to call people “garbage” to say you don’t think they’re players… that’s trash talk and people don’t deserve it…
Say what you want, Schafer’s toughness is pretty amazing….hit in the face with a ball one night and playing two days later. Then Tue. he comes off the bench and plays half the game before being disabled the next morning….lots of smart baseball folks like him….
….You know folks that make a living in the game, maybe as smart as some of the bloggers here….maybe anyway…
sc
July 28th, 2011
10:26 am
Anyone happen to notice what Yunel Escobar is doing. Hitting .310 with 9 homers. Talk about mortgaging the future….. So, Bobby didn’t get along with him. They knew it was Bobby’s last year so why didn’t the organization say put up with him for a few more months. Anybody have any idea whom our next “shortstop of the future” is going to be? Obviously Gonzo is on his last legs.
tdc
July 28th, 2011
10:35 am
@the truth..
Stop being so sensitive. I don’t think the guy is literally garbage. I just think he SUCK as a MAJOR LEAGUE baseball player. The only reason he is playing MLB baseball right now is because people like him. The guy hasn’t done anything since being busted for HGH in 08.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/schafjo02.shtml
The numbers don’t lie.
tdc
July 28th, 2011
10:40 am
@ sc
Yeah notice that to. I think that is the problem with the braves. If a guy don’t fit in then he is shipped out while they keep likeable guys that hardly do anything on the field.
Robert
July 28th, 2011
10:47 am
Hey Falcon Fan stick to football. Quintin will be arbitration eligible in 2012 not a free agent until 2013.
Atticus
July 28th, 2011
10:48 am
Get Michael Cuddyer. He can play multiple positions and strikes out much less than Pence or Ludwick or Quentin.
Atticus
July 28th, 2011
10:50 am
McLouth’s OBP is MUCH higher than Schafer. Let Schafer play in the minors some more to see if he can get it together but he won’t help us here this year, he never walks.
Holoman
July 28th, 2011
10:55 am
Jeff Passan on Cardinals trading Rasmus to Jays :
“But until then, the Cardinals traded a nugget of gold for a couple pieces of silver, a chunk of bronze and a roll of tin foil.”
LMAO.
Holoman
July 28th, 2011
10:58 am
I agree about Yunel. So what if his attitude doesn’t jive ? He gets paid to produce which he does well. I think Bobby & Chipper had problems with Yunel. Well, Bobby’s gone and Chipper soon will be. All while Yunel hits .300 and plays dynamic SS for Jays while Braves have .195 hitting Gonzalez who will retire soon…
ShaunC
July 28th, 2011
11:02 am
MEDLIN!
chc4
July 28th, 2011
11:02 am
01HAWK — Wheeler is an elite prospect. Rated much higher than Minor. Not sure where you’re getting your info but it’s wrong.
Rasmus is a lefty bat. We don’t need that. Not sure why people are hung up on that deal. Plus he has pretty much sucked.
the truth...
July 28th, 2011
11:11 am
No one knows more about what Schafer means to the team than the ones on the team that are playing with him day to day. Chipper is hight on him and also was fine with Yunel as well.
Schafer’s defense is head and shoulders better than anyone on the roster….and he is learning and trying to adapt at the plate. His arm is so superior to McLouth’s that it isn’t even up for discussion….
The other night when McLouth was back in center and he threw to the wrong base AND missed the cutoff man it ended up costing us the game…two runs scored that wouldn’t have. If Schafer had missed the cutoff man he most likely would have had a chance to get McCutchen at 3rd…he is a real CF where Nate rates no higher than LF…
Holoman
July 28th, 2011
11:13 am
Rasmus is a 5 tool player. No we didn’t need him but it shows that other teams are trying to win while Braves are standing pat doing nada. That was my point.
Holoman
July 28th, 2011
11:14 am
That’s BS. Chipper hated Yunel’s attitude.
Holoman
July 28th, 2011
11:16 am
Just face it, Wren has gotten murdered on his trades. 3 stars traded to Rangers for 2 month’s of Texeira. Then Yunel to Jays for washed up Gonzalez.
the truth...
July 28th, 2011
11:17 am
Chipper made some comments this week as well as Prado that they had no problems with Yunel….I didn’t understand where the issues were, but he always seemed to sit alone in the dugout so I wondered what was going on with him….
It would have been nice to have him playing with a full deck…same as Francouer…now he is playing pretty well for KC…
Fact is sometimes it takes a wake up call to kick start some players….
the truth...
July 28th, 2011
11:21 am
Schuerholz made the Tex trade, not Wren….. look it up, it happened in the summer of 2007 and Wren wasn’t the GM until after the World Series of that year.
Here’s the story where Chipper and Prado made their comments on Yunel….
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2011/06/20/chipper-i-never-wanted-yunel-to-leave/
bummed
July 28th, 2011
11:23 am
if we are going after houston’s pence and bourn, get both!!!! give up a top pitching player, shafer, and mclouth and whoever else they want that is not in the mix for the next two years…..
tdc
July 28th, 2011
11:29 am
@ the truth…
Damn! Somebody has a man crush on Jordan Schafer. Maybe Nate should take HGH also to help improve that throwing arm. Like i said look at his stats since he was caught with HGH in 08. GARBAGE!
the truth..
July 28th, 2011
11:30 am
bummed
If only Houston would cooperate with tha trade idea…. I have been saying the same thing, but the reality is that Philly is hot on Pence too and that makes everything harder.
Pence isn’t going anywhere for that price…if he were Wren would have already made that trade….plus who wants McLouth anyway? This is the last year of his contract and won’t be a hot commodity next year anyway…..
Takes two teams to trade…
Boom-Boom
July 28th, 2011
11:33 am
You build championships with your draft. I am happy we didn’t trade one of our farm boy’s for a guy that only plays up to the gold standard during contract years. Jeff there is a big picture you should probably stare at for a few minutes.
Thanks
Boom-Boom
jeff
July 28th, 2011
11:35 am
to dawg fan in grayson… the giants got cody ross last year because of the waiver rules, not because frank wren screwed up. the giants had a worse record at the time than the braves, thus they claimed ross off waivers first. the braves never had a chance to get him.
pete
July 28th, 2011
11:35 am
Schafer is freaking awful. The only decent season he had in the minors he was popped for HGH. He hits .220 and has an OBP of .300
abc
July 28th, 2011
11:39 am
Why do people want bourn? He is a lefty who has similar numbers against lefties over his career as nate mcclouth.
bummed
July 28th, 2011
11:46 am
truth,
correct….however….bourn would be the lost soul we have been missing at the top of our lineup since otis nixon, he is only 28….and pence is worth two pitching prospects….he also would make our outfield look pretty good…..pence, bourn, and heyward…wow….give up what they want as far as prospects go…except for your top 2 pitching prospects….make the deal wren!!! you did not want a rental player and these two would be around for years….
tdc
July 28th, 2011
11:50 am
pete
July 28th, 2011
11:35 am
Schafer is freaking awful. The only decent season he had in the minors he was popped for HGH. He hits .220 and has an OBP of .300
Chill pete,
at least he is likeable and has a juiced up, I mean strong throwing arm.
bummed
July 28th, 2011
11:52 am
abc,
bourn is much better…….342 vs rhp in the last 3 years, .293 vs lhp the last 3 years….154 stolen bases the last 3 years….when is the last time you saw a brave with a .300 average and 50 stolen bases at the top of our lineup.
Falcon Fan
July 28th, 2011
11:56 am
Robert..You are right, CQ does have another year of arbitration. I was told wrong and repeated it without checking it out ..Sorry. Do agree on Bourn.
As for Falcon fan yes… I’m just as big a fan of Braves.
Bourn Fan
July 28th, 2011
11:59 am
abc..Bourn is hitting 300..who cares which side hits from as long as he hits. 38 sb…
Jeff C
July 28th, 2011
12:00 pm
I think going after a guy like Michael Bourn makes more sense than anything. You’d have to give up too much for Pence. With Bourn you could generate more runs with speed.
Atticus
July 28th, 2011
12:00 pm
What is Bourn’s OBP compared to McLouth? Look it up. Look up Cuddyer too.
pete
July 28th, 2011
12:04 pm
Would rather have Pence, but Bourn is much much better than McLouth or Schafer
Bill
July 28th, 2011
12:04 pm
I think the problem with the Braves struggle today is that they have traded away so many young, good prospects over the past years. If they had retained the infielders/outfielders in the system they would not be looking for that one player to put them over the top. It does not help for long, to give away a top prospect for a two month player as the Braves will not spend the money to retain that player. Then the next year they are in the same predicament.
pete
July 28th, 2011
12:06 pm
Bill, what infielders or outfielders have we given away besides Andrus that would help this team?
Howard
July 28th, 2011
12:14 pm
You have to realize that JJ will be a free agent in a couple of years and will not re-sign with the Braves. Why? Because his agent is Scott Boras and the Braves never deal with him. I think Wren knows he will lose JJ. If he is a free agent in a couple of years they will probably trade him before that to get something for him. I love JJ but I understand the business and the payroll issues. the Braves will lose Lowe probably after this or next season and Hudson probably only has a couple of years left. So, by the time these young guns are ready we are going to really need them. By my calculations we need three. since you never know about injuries, and we aren’t sure all four of the prospects will make it, doesn’t it make sense to be reluctant to trade them.
I truly believe that the way the Braves run their system most often they are better off not making trades. Especially some of the young pitchers we have given away, like Wainright.
PMC
July 28th, 2011
12:17 pm
Why wouldn’t they pay JJ?
The overpaid the hell out of Derrick Lowe didn’t they?
pete
July 28th, 2011
12:18 pm
Howard, we have won 1 title running the system this way. WHy not change it up? You can have the best pitching in the league, but if you cannot score you will not win
BAMA Dude
July 28th, 2011
12:18 pm
Holoman
July 28th, 2011
11:16 am
Just face it, Wren has gotten murdered on his trades. 3 stars traded to Rangers for 2 month’s of Texeira. Then Yunel to Jays for washed up Gonzalez.
You’re clueless. Yunel was traded for AGon and prospects, one of which, Pastornicky, is tearing it up in AAA at….shortstop. He will probably be here opening day 2012 (if not September)and won’t be eligible for Arb for three years. Tex wasn’t a fleecing at all, and they had him for two months plus another season (since the next season went down the tubes they dumped him at the deadline.) How about the old Jurrjens for Renteria deal? That seems to have worked out pretty well.
headley lamar
July 28th, 2011
12:21 pm
That’s BS. Chipper hated Yunel’s attitude.
I think the whole team did. Hence the standing ovation Alex Gonzalez received when walking into the clubhouse for the first time. They knew hey at least this guy is a pro and wont be pouting all day.
BAMA Dude
July 28th, 2011
12:22 pm
Bill, name the elite infield/outfield prospects the Braves have traded away. I have two for you: Andrus and Escobar… and we got Pastornicky back for Escobar in addition to Gonzo as a stop gap.
headley lamar
July 28th, 2011
12:22 pm
You can have the best pitching in the league, but if you cannot score you will not win
Giants did last year.
pete
July 28th, 2011
12:26 pm
Escobar is elite? LOL. LOL. LOL> LOL Giants traded for an offensive player last year in Cody Ross, who was MVP in the Playoffs for them