What’s stopping Braves, Wren from trading a pitcher?
Are Braves overvaluing pitching prospects like Mike Minor? (Hyosub Shin/AJC)
I’m going to refrain from excessive bashing of Braves general manager Frank Wren — maybe just a few jabs — until we see what (if anything) he does between now and the major league trade deadline.
But I do have one question: How much pitching does one franchise need?
The Braves apparently lost out to San Francisco in the Carlos Beltran sweepstakes in part because Wren was not willing to part with a top pitching prospect, like Mike Minor.
Loading ...It’s common in pro sports for teams to overvalue their own prospects. We know the Braves’ success since the 1990s has been built on pitching. The organization has done a wonderful job developing young arms. But dealing a pitcher for a player (like Beltran) who potentially can put a team over the top seems logical.
Let’s look at the depth chart. The Braves have five solid starters: Tommy Hanson, Tim Hudson, Jair Jurrjens, Derek Lowe and Brandon Beachy. Lowe has only one year left on his contract and conceivably may not be here even that long. Hudson is 36 years old. That still leaves three starters potentially for the long term.
The organization also has at least four top pitching prospects. Julio Teheran is the consensus No. 1. The next three, in no particular order: Minor, Randall Delgado and Arodys Vizcaino. While there’s no guarantee all will make it at the major league level, the Braves realistically only would need two of them to fill out a five-man rotation in the future (assuming Hanson, Jurrjens and Beachy are kept and stay healthy).
So why not trade one? It certainly wouldn’t qualify as mortgaging the future.
The Braves need offensive help. Chipper Jones can’t be counted on to get and stay healthy. Brian McCann is out two to three weeks. Others are either banged up, struggling or both. This is not a new problem, the McCann injury just made the situation a little more desperate.
Wren has the assets to trade to make this team better. But the deadline is only four days away, and San Francisco, one of the Braves’ competitors for a National League pennant and a World Series just got better.
By Jeff Schultz
♦
Earlier: Heyward still determined to make impact on Braves’ system
Earlier: A long night, an awful call, a Braves win led by Scott Proctor
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324 comments Add your comment
Brian
July 27th, 2011
11:47 pm
Pence would be great, but the Astros will want a ton for him. Let’s go after Quentin, Bourn or Willingham.
ueeediot
July 27th, 2011
11:55 pm
It seems pretty simple really. Wren is a gutless GM.
The only trade worth a dam is the one to get Jurgens.
Every other trade has been effectively for NOTHING.
Gregor Blanco had trade value…got nothing in return
Jeff Francuer was a starting right fielder and you traded him for NOTHING
Tell me about how hard Wren fought to get Oswalt here…
Tell me how hard Wren worked the budget to even TRY to get Cliff Lee here…
Wren traded the Rangers how many players for Texiera?
The real trade that needs to be made is for a GM with some stones.
ueeediot
July 28th, 2011
12:06 am
Oh I know what youre going to say….youre going to say, hey ueeediot, Wren has made some good moves too….look at how he managed to sign a 35 year old D Lowe to a 4 year 60 million dollar contract (and he only had to give up a draft pick to be so lucky to make this deal)
Or hey, what about signing that Japanese league pitcher sight unseen for only 23 million…
Or hey, at least he let Adam LaRoche walk away when he knew Adam Dunn would be available….
bravos007
July 28th, 2011
12:07 am
@jeff- thank god wren doesn’t listen to the writers at the AJC to make decisions. and it appears that most people strongly agree with the Beltran trade as well.
Athenzdawg
July 28th, 2011
12:55 am
Please don’t waste our time for Josh Willingham if we needed another outfielder who was a “platoon” player who batted .240 which is his average now….we might as well keep who we have. We have won or lost with the crap thats in the field now, might as well keep our pitching and not give it up for more crap
Ross
July 28th, 2011
1:30 am
Perhaps Wren realizes that no one wants to go see old prima donnas suit up and collect fat paychecks. Spending a pitcher for young speed and defense is fine, and will probably happen, but wasting them on some washed up steroid cases is of no interest to actual baseball fans. Whatever happens to the Braves, they are fun to watch because they have fun playing. The team chemistry is worth 3 sluggers.
Maybe you should catch some triple-A ball – you’d see that prospects like Minor are few and far between and SHOULD be hoarded.
one for all
July 28th, 2011
5:40 am
GM Wren you are doing great. Do not trade our talent away for rentals. Wish we had our Texas Rangers back. Oh yeah they went to last year’s World Series. Watch Beltran wash out just like the Mets found out. He was a one year wonder in 2004. 119 million for 7 years of DL. Remember some of the best trades are the trades you do not make. If Braves make a trade it must help us in the future as well as now. Our future is setting up fine. I think we should consider a six man rotation to prevent injuries. Jurrjens, Hanson, Beachy, Teheran, Minor, Vizcaino. Bullpen of Kimbrel closer, Venters set up/co closer, O’Flaherty, Moylan, Medlen, Delgado. Perez, Martinez, etc, in reserve. Freeman 1B. Uggla 2B, Prado 3B, Heyward RF, Schafer CF, McCann C, stud at SS, powerhitting LF. Bench Ross/Bethancourt, Hinske, Conrad, Hicks, OF? We will have another dynasty soon.
Shonuff
July 28th, 2011
7:46 am
I don’t think you can trade away a top pitching prospect. Lowe and Hudson are older. Jurgens may not be with Braves for the long haul. That’s three rotations spots. If you trade one of the top pitching prospects then you better hope that the ones you keep absolutely turn out to be productive pros. That’s why you need a pitching surplus…of those four top tier pitching prospects…one or two are certain to be busts.
tdc
July 28th, 2011
7:47 am
This team reminds me of an addict that don’t want to admit they have a problem. McClouth, Schafer, and Alex Gonzalez suck and would not be starting for any other team in the majors. Chipper Jones is old and is not worth the money (13 million) he is making. Larry Parrish is garbage, the offense was suppose to get better with Uggla not worse. Heyward is an outcast. God forbid Freddie Freeman struggle next year.
Lee B.
July 28th, 2011
7:51 am
Give up a left handed pitching prospect to rent Beltran for two months??? No thanks. Wren was smart not to pull the trigger on that deal. Long term help from a younger RH power bat would be a different story but dealing Minor for Beltran would have been stupid. Good job Frank Wren!
Atticus
July 28th, 2011
7:51 am
Why not Michael Cuddyear?
OZZIE VIRGIL
July 28th, 2011
7:53 am
I’m glad we did not get Beltran. We are still smarting from the Tex trade, and the Rangers are in another league. I think there has to be something the manager can do to shake up the bats we have. Juggle the lineup (let the fans pick it for one day), more hit and run, etc. We have some quality hitters who stink on ice this year.
tdc
July 28th, 2011
7:58 am
-The braves need to fire Larry Parrish and rehire Terry Pendleton so he work with Heyward.
-Get rid of Schafer and McClouth.
-Move Prado to third.
-Restructure Chipper contract or force him to retire.
-Trade for Pence or Carlos Quentin and a CF.
Arkie
July 28th, 2011
8:19 am
Wren, think before you trade any of our young pitchers. You have two under contract to Mr. Boras. You have two older ones. You have several relievers that are below average. Do not sink the ship with a rental. You know better than we the weaknesses. Prado will move to third leaving CF and LF still weak. SS is a get by. Be careful. If you trade – go for long term aquisitions – youth, speed, defense and some power.Get coaches that teach and stress fundermental ball – all players should know and bunt well, move runners in scoring position, play sound defense, hit and run more, etc. Go Braves!!
wardenerd
July 28th, 2011
8:45 am
I know this is premature but in the off season is there a third baseman available? Prado to Left Field, Chipper to the bench and farewell tour and a big hard hitting bat wielding sum bitch to go midevil on the Phillies.
Scott
July 28th, 2011
8:48 am
we got neives! he’s going to kick butt for us at aaa!
Gibb
July 28th, 2011
8:50 am
We need to get Rick Ankiel and Derrek Lee back! That will do it.
oliver
July 28th, 2011
8:59 am
I will wait and see what Mr. Wren is working on. Nobody on this gripe outlet knows what is in the works either, they just know, without having any facts, what he should do. Let the man and the organization do what they, having the facts, can do.
75years
July 28th, 2011
9:00 am
Last fall wE had an All Star 2nd baseman so we trade for another one – Now we need help and we have what some think is the future of the Braves in RF So Wren goes after Beltran – That did turn out so he is now after Pence – We have not had a true leadoff/base stealer for 5 years – Houston wants to trade Bourn – Wake Up Mr Wren and fill the holes needed
NickGranite
July 28th, 2011
9:01 am
Sheffield upgraded the offense big time-in the regular season. He stunk in the post-season.
Katherine
July 28th, 2011
9:05 am
What about going after hanley ramirez? There have been rumors of him wanting to leave florida….wouldn’t that be amazing to have a shortstop that isn’t hurting your team on a nightly basis?
jtmpapa
July 28th, 2011
9:08 am
All this talk about an outfielder, what we need is a shortstop that can hit.
jtmpapa
July 28th, 2011
9:10 am
Sorry Katherine, didn’t see your posting.
Gil In Mechanicsville
July 28th, 2011
9:12 am
Top pitching prospects are not pieces you squander away on short term rentals. Those are pieces you use for a Carlos Quintin or Hunter Pence. Players who would be around for more than two months.
Now, if you want to talk about picking up a guy like David Wright, then we can talk about being serious about trading top pitching prospects.
jtmpapa
July 28th, 2011
9:12 am
Sit Hayward down and play Henski
the truth..
July 28th, 2011
9:14 am
@Katherine
Hanley Ramirez is a cancer waiting to be spread….awesome talent, terrible attitude….
Fredi sat him down for lack of hustle when he managed there….don’t think he’ll be too receptive to bringing him to this team…
DetroitBraves
July 28th, 2011
9:14 am
There aren’t many third basemen worth much this year across baseball. The better ones have been hurt often, and underperforming when they’ve played. Chipper ‘11 is a far cry from Chipper ‘09 or prior but compared to the rest of the third basemen in baseball, he stacks up surprisingly well.
ET, I haven’t seen anything to convince me that Minor is the next John Smoltz. And while that trade did end up getting Detroit into the playoffs that year, I’ll tell you what – if Minor makes more than 3 all-star teams (I don’t think he makes any but since the qualifications have become something along the lines of “do you have a brother? Yes? You’re in.” I want a little bit of a buffer) I’ll eat my Braves hat and post it on youtube.
For the record, yes I would have dealt Minor for Beltran. No, that wasn’t really going to happen anyway because the Mets got a better offer in Wheeler but I agree with Furman. The Braves just drafted Minor V.2.0 in Gilmartin. Yes, I would trade Minor in a heartbeat for Pence. No, I doubt that would happen since they turned down Cosart and Singleton from the Phillies. Trading one or more of the projectable top end starters? That’s not an easy question to answer. I would be somewhat reluctant to deal Teheran or Vizcaino but at the same time I wouldn’t want to make the classic mistake of over-valuing prospects. The next several years of Hunter Pence are much more predicatable.
Dave
July 28th, 2011
9:16 am
I totally agree with Frank Wren: I would NOT trade a top pitching prospect for a two-moth rental, either! Now, if there was any chance of getting Beltran to sign a long-term deal, then that is a different story, but his agent, Scott Boras, almost always has his clients test the free agent market. The Braves learned that lesson with Mark Texiara.
Trading away ANY of the top prospects under those circumstances would be WORSE than what the Braves did when they gave Adam Wainwright to the Cardinals for J.D. Drew. Had we kept Wainwright, we might not have had the 3-year playoff drought.
If the Braves give up any pitching prospect, it should be for a hitter that will be with the club next year.
TR
July 28th, 2011
9:24 am
Avg .310 HR 9 RBI 38 Runs 57 SB 3
Yunels numbers.
Alex numbers
Avg .228 HR 8 RBI 33 Runs 39 SB 2
Another bad trade.
ET
July 28th, 2011
9:24 am
DetroitBraves-
I’m not talking about Minor. Minor wasn’t going to get us Beltran. The Mets took the Giants TOP pitching prospect. Minor isn’t going to get us anything more than what we already have on our team… Players who should be good but aren’t quite there right now. Wren doesn’t need to trade away any of the top prospects to get a rented bat. Several years from now when our rented player moves on and our top prospect, whom we shipped out, comes back & no-hits us, you will be one of the first to leave a comment on how Wren blew it when he traded away a top pitching prospect for a rented player. That’s how it works around here.
Katherine
July 28th, 2011
9:25 am
the truth..
July 28th, 2011
9:14 am
@Katherine
Hanley Ramirez is a cancer waiting to be spread….awesome talent, terrible attitude….
Fredi sat him down for lack of hustle when he managed there….don’t think he’ll be too receptive to bringing him to this team…
Well, that is what bobby thought about escobar..and what a horrible thing it was getting rid of him for the braves. Gonzo is actually hurting the braves almost every time he plays…I would hope they would at least consider getting ramirez…people can change.
Robert
July 28th, 2011
9:26 am
We have scored 7 runs in 38 innings against the Pirates! I think that proves we need some offensive help. Go get Bourn from Houston for Minor. Maybe the Stros will throw in a middle reliver too, and then if all the White Sox want for Quintin is Beachy you make that deal yesterday!
jtmpapa
July 28th, 2011
9:26 am
To tdc: Pendleton sucked as a hitting coach. Should have been fired not moved to first base. Heyward is not coachable. No coach is going to keep him from swinging at a pitch that’s 3 feet in front of the plate.
Katherine
July 28th, 2011
9:27 am
I just think that the more immediate need is a shortstop..not an outfielder.
jtmpapa
July 28th, 2011
9:30 am
We do need a shortstop ,but not Ramirez.
Katherine
July 28th, 2011
9:37 am
what about furcal?
Falcon Fan
July 28th, 2011
9:37 am
Robert you would give up Beachy for CQ and CQ will be a free agent at end of year..not to smart.
the truth..
July 28th, 2011
9:38 am
@ueeediot
Schuerholtz did the Tex trade, not Wren
Dnice
July 28th, 2011
9:40 am
I have a trade that could work for both sides. How about Hanley ramirez for Gonzo and Medlen. We give them a picture and they get rid of someone obviously they dont want and maybe just maybe Fredi can make him understand that he has a fresh start and he will not hold nothing against him that happened in FLA and also having a future HOF like Chipper and young studs like Heyward, Freeman, JJ, Hanson, etc… will teach him that he is not BMOC (Big man on campus) and he comforms and plays to his ability and we dont have to see Gonzo reminding us that Yunel is batting 300.
Katherine
July 28th, 2011
9:41 am
I like it dnice!
Falcon Fan
July 28th, 2011
9:43 am
jtmpapa..Hayward un- coachable..lol
J-Hey is very coachable..Greg Walker with White Sox is a very good hitting coach..just saying…
the truth..
July 28th, 2011
9:46 am
Furcal has been injured this year and is not the same Furcal these days that he once was.
I wasn’t a big fan of the Escobasr for Gonzalez trade, but since there was so much talk about how he had problems in the club house and other players weren’t happy playing with him….attitude problems….that those of us on the outside looking in did not know the full story.
Since then I have often wondered if Escobar would have benefitted by playing for Fredi, since he has the same Cuban heritage and speaks the language unlike Bobby. Clearly Unel is the superior bat…I wish he were playing SS for us but that isn’t the case and isn’t going to be the case….good thing or not Gonzalez is at SS now and his glove is great, just has holes in his bat..
Plate Appearance
July 28th, 2011
9:47 am
NEEDED RESTRAINT
I’m thankful that Wren didn’t trade a front line pitcher for a 2 month rental.
Well done Frank! You did a great job in showing some restraint!
the truth..
July 28th, 2011
9:49 am
Hanley’s problem is that his ego is so big it won’t fit into the clubhouse or dugout….plus he insists on being not only the SS, but the manager as well…
Not likely to happen….if he had a “head makeover” that would be another thing….but pride and ego are difficult things to manage, even for Hanley…
jtmpapa
July 28th, 2011
9:53 am
Why would Freddy want Ramirez who got him fired in Florida?
nobody
July 28th, 2011
9:56 am
I am amazed at the hate for Frank Wren. He is a great GM. He acquires quality players for hardly anything. It isn’t his fault that once they get here they suck. Mclouth was an all-star when we got him and we gave up absolutely nothing to get him. Gorkys and Morton? Big Whoop. Agon hit 15 homers before we got him. His team has created an amazing farm system full of players.
tdc
July 28th, 2011
9:56 am
jtmpapa
July 28th, 2011
9:26 am
To tdc: Pendleton sucked as a hitting coach. Should have been fired not moved to first base. Heyward is not coachable. No coach is going to keep him from swinging at a pitch that’s 3 feet in front of the plate.
This same offense without Uggla and Freeman was better last year.
nobody
July 28th, 2011
9:57 am
Why doesn’t Wilkin Ramirez get more playing time? Honest question. He is more of an offensive threat than Mclouth when Schaefer is in center
the truth..
July 28th, 2011
9:58 am
He doen’t want Hanley….folks that keep bringing up Hanley’s name just don’t know the history there as well as his apparent attitude problems.
tdc
July 28th, 2011
10:02 am
Wilkin Ramirez is garbage. Him, Schafer, and McClouth should be sitting on the curb waiting for pickup.