SEC didn’t go nearly far enough with ‘oversigning’

I guess my problem with lowering the limit is…what if a team has 26 or 28 scholarships available?

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Ah, Nick Satan…The Napoleon of College football…How about a draft system like the NFL…If you finish first you can only sign 16 and prorate it down the line..Just kidding folks!

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Bryan G.,

Per NCAA rules you can only bring in 25 per class even if you have room for more. Signing more than that means you HAVE to greyshirt or have early enrollees, assuming all qualify.

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This started years ago when the first college looked the other way in order to admit personnel who did not meet the entrance criteria of the school, but they were gifted athletes and they could help the school win. And that started it all. Winning became more important than anything else and coaches that did not win, and did not get on TV; well, they just did not stay at the school very long. We now teach openly how to cheat to win, how everything is OK as long as you don’t get caught. And if you do, deny and offer up excuses and your lawyer will make a statement later. – Suppose the colleges went back to strict rules of admission. Scholarships were issued only to those capable of meeting the standards of admission and schools that issued scholarships to kids were required to graduate that student or that scholarship was un-available for the next 4 to 5 years. No exceptions. Once you sign on the dotted line, that scholarship is no longer available. It would be difficult at first, but you would find that in the fall of the year, when colleges played games; one team would win and one would lose; it used to be a game; now it’s a drug for an emotional high. Red Bull anyone? Too many kids are lost in the shuffle for the drive to be #1. And it is everywhere. Just look at the Department of Justice; they want a playoff so #1 can be crowned. Don’t they have other things to do? Today, too much rides on the kid that is gifted; until he or she is no longer capable of carrying the load. And when they are, like the rest of us, they are replaced with the latest, fastest, newest edition of what people will pay to watch. And the adults let it happen. You would think they would know better…..Go Team!!! Win one for TV. Get the rating up – keep the cash coming. As long as greed makes the rules – nothing will change.

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I wish football season would hurry up and get here. The doldrums are tough this time of year!

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Jeff,

Fired up? Appreciate the passion. And you’re right. Saban is morally bankrupt. I think Forbes named him in their top 10 list of ‘the most hated people in sports’. Not exactly the top 10 list you want to be on. Saban doesn’t get the concept of win-win, for sure. True, although a move in the right direction, ultimately, the SEC caved into to Saban’s theatrics AGAIN. He throws his little temper tantrums and tries to change minds that way. Remember what happened when his player got suspeneded and Saban villified agents? Unreal.

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Of course the SEC wimped out. Anyone bothered to check their non-conference schedules? It’s what they do.

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You want to solve the problem? The player can’t sign till they are admitted to the university or college. This will postpone signing day till June, and removing any possibility of over signing.

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blackout – take your blinders off. your coach is a rotten scumbag. a heck of a coach, but a rotten scumbag.

i think the uga-pandering sports writers have already shown that richt is in favor of a grey shirt, so just shut up your whining.

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Sorry about the post above. Remember, I’m a dog. Over-signing players is a lot like over-signing mascots. Georgia has me and is already working on getting another little dog ready even though I am working my a$$ off as mascot. That’s called over-signing and I don’t like it a bit.

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Outside of Vandy, Florida, and Georgia the rest of the conference could care less about the “student” athlete. And yes I have the nerve to say that even after all of the arrests at Florida and Georgia. The rest of the conference is run with a “Forget Hell” mentality.

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A limit of 25 does nothing to resolve the so called over signing. If there are 20 openings yet 25 are signed then 5 have to be pushed out the door. To solve the problem, if indeed there is a problem, the suspension of the 85 maximum over the summer needs to be closed. As it now stands a school could have 90 players enrolled on scholarship from early June until August 1. During those 3 months evaluations can be conducted in what is essentially a tryout camp. August 1 5 players can be effectively “cut”, ala NFL cutdown. This is the practice being used primarily by Saban and Petrino, both former NFL coaches.

Until the NCAA closes the 85 loophole and enforces its rules related to coaches observing “voluntary” summer workouts abuse will continue.

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FIRE PERNO! This guy chokes in tight games. He looks like a caged spider monkey in a zoo as he paces the dugout.

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I still don’t know why any kid would trust Nutt or Spurrier when they recruit them, they lie as much as a politician, but once EPSN ran that very negative story on Les Miles a couple of months ago you knew something would be done. The SEC Presidents hate bad publicity almost as much as they love BCS money.

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The ignorance of Jeff and the folks on here is nothing short of astounding. In Saban’s tenure Alabama ranks 6th or 7th in the conference in terms of oversigning. Those are the facts which I will post shortly.

As for Saban “cutting” and “running players off” to make room what a obscenely asinine statement. Not one person on here can point to one single Bama player who was “cut” or “run off” for anything other than disciplinary problems. Those are the FACTS.

Now, about that oversigning BS the dawg fans keep spouting.

Perhaps you would be better served spending your time worrying about Troy since they lead the nation in oversigning at 32 players a year on average. According to the real stats Alabama is 6th in the SEC – middle of the road- in oversigning. If we include the 2011 recruiting class Bama falls to 8th in the SEC since the Saban era began in terms of oversigning. But why let the facts get in the way of your argument.

By the way can’t wait to see your ranting about Troy oversigning at 32 players per year on avg.

In past five years, 25 of 120 FBS programs averaged more than 25 signees
That list includes eight of 12 SEC schools and five of current Big 12 teams
Troy has signed 164 players over that span, a staggering average of 32.8

Team-by-team look at class size over five-year span

School Conference 2010 2009 2008 2007 2006 Total Average

Troy Sun Belt 34 40 33 32 25 164 32.8
Ole Miss SEC 25 37 31 22 30 145 29
Auburn SEC 32 28 29 30 25 144 28.8
Mississippi State SEC 26 27 27 34 24 138 27.6
Kansas State Big 12 17 25 32 33 30 137 27.4
Temple MAC 25 28 26 30 27 136 27.2
Southern Miss C-USA 26 22 27 32 28 135 27
Arkansas SEC 25 31 25 27 26 134 26.8
Kentucky SEC 26 29 20 29 30 134 26.8
Alabama SEC 26 27 32 25 23 133 26.6
Iowa State Big 12 28 25 25 25 30 133 26.6
LSU SEC 29 24 26 26 26 131 26.2
Baylor Big 12 23 28 23 29 28 131 26.2
Tulsa C-USA 25 25 26 31 23 130 26
Oklahoma State Big 12 27 24 27 23 29 130 26
Florida State ACC 25 21 33 20 31 130 26
South Carolina SEC 23 29 22 31 24 129 25.8

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HOW ABOUT sign as many as you want, but only dress current restrictions and all of those that don’t play still get a free education???

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#1. Good for you. I also remember a too little too late comeback in the second half between the hedges. I was merely responding to “Blackout” and his little insinuation. Saban is notorious for over signing, and has been since his days at LSU. I have met him personally, know several people who have worked for and with him, and will just say that he is a competitive individual who puts winning above all (and I do mean all) else. He is a dictator that is best suited for a school like Alabama that will overlook all of his negative qualities for winning at all cost. He didn’t leave Miami for nothing, he had mutiny on his hands, and that is a fact. Enjoy while you can. We’ll see Alabama, and him, in a similar Sports Illustrated/NCAA investigation as OSU in a few years.

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#1bamafan no one has said that Saban was not a good coach. If I had a son that he was recruiting I wouldn’t believe a word that came form his lips. In his past life he must have been a snake oil salesman. No he is not the biggest offender in oversigning, but like I told that idiot, Blackoutanyone. He’s the one doing all the ranting about how it would ruin football if they( the universities ) were to actually grow a pair and put a stop to scewing over some of these kids by stopping him and the other lying coaches from oversigning. Like I said. No Saban isn’t the only coach doing this, but he is the one screaming the loudest.

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Maybe the kids should be offered a cash out severance package if they’re told to hit the bricks..? For the millionth time : It’s a business that deals in sweatshop labor. Win out and win out…

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@Blackoutanyone, there you go again, always talking out your you know what.

Alabama comes in third behind only Auburn and Mississippi.

Four year numbers for players signed.

Miss. 122……#1
Aub. 113……#2
Ala. 112……#3
Ark. 111…..#4
SC. 105…..#5
MS. 102…..#6
LSU 100…..#7

Now the numbers for the teams that don’t oversign.

Tenn. 91.
UGA. 88.
FLA. 85.

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JDAWG…OK Competitive and winning are two words that we like to use at BAMA and would be required of our coach. My father-in-law attended Georgia and I do pull for the DAWGS. All I was saying is Jeff Shultz and the Georgia fans put too much effort into beating up on Coach Saban, when most of it is not factual. I am happy with our coach and if Georgia fans are happy with Richt, everything should be OK. RTR

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Jeff,

You are so far off base, your general statements are completely wrong and your statement about Nick Saban’s son has NEVER happened at Alabama, LSU or Michigan St. To make such a statement is poor journalism and you and your college professors know it.

You may sit in the media center on Saturdays and visit the local schools for sound bites and try to find stories for your readers, but you NEVER have been involved in a major college program, worked in a major college program and have ZERO understanding of what 7 of the 12 coaches were saying when they fought to keep the numbers at 28 instead of the 25.

As a guy who has worked in 4 major programs over a 20 year career, and professional sports for 10 years I can emphatically say you are clueless on what a student athlete really goes through to get a scholarhsip offer, then compete at the next level while maintaining his core classes, study hall, weight training, film study, meetings, all while attempting to be a high school then college student.

Spend a little more time researching your articles before sitting in front of your SONY notebook and spewing information that is wrong. You are better than this.

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And I’m certain if Nick Saban’s son were to be offered a football scholarship one year, only to be told months later after he had enrolled that there was no room after all, or to be pressured into leaving a season or two later when coaches suddenly determined that he wasn’t good enough, papa bear still would be perfectly fine with all this.- Jeff Schultz

Really Jeff? Show me one single Alabama player who was run off after 1 or 2 seasons for reasons other than disciplinary or legal issues. Or at another SEC school for that matter.

I don’t mean to put this all on Saban, although he and Houston Nutt have been two of the biggest abusers of oversigning- Jeff Schultz

Seriously Jeff. I just provided the numbers showing that Bama is at worst 6th in the SEC in terms of over signing under Saban and factoring in 2011 signees Bama is actually probably 7th or 8th. Care to remand your BS rhetoric that Saban is one of the 2 worst offenders?

a “morally reprehensible” practice in the words of Florida president Bernie Machen.
And what the hell does Machen know? He’s the president- not the coach or AD and frankly like you he has no clue what the hell he is talking about. He should stick to academics and stay out of football.

According to the rules, if a coach has 18 scholarship openings he can still sign 25 kids, then massage the numbers over a certain period, coerce kids into quitting or taking a “grayshirt” — postponing going on scholarship — or working some medical hardship magic (albeit, the SEC will have some oversight now). In the end, the coach gets the 18 players on the roster he wants and other seven are dropped into a black hole.- Jeff Schultz

Jeff, can your shoddy reporting possibly get any worse. Just how ignorant can you be? Players getting shoved down a black hole? Hyperbole and fact less rhetoric?

Coerced into quitting? Really? Care to back that up with some evidence?

Grayshirting? Seriously? John Parker Wilson was a greyshirt and things worked out pretty well for him I’ld say. What’s funny is that Shula had more greyshirts than Saban has had- Saban has had maybe 1- 2 at most in a year and a couple of years had none. Funny but nobody complained about Shula- only Saban. Wonder why that is Jeff?

And also if a player has a greyshirt offer at say his dream school and a full ride at UK or a mid tier program like UAB its his choice as to what he wants to do. He can wait for 1 semester or go to another program like the 1 greyshirt offer Bama had done this year. He was Bama’s lone player that it was explained to him that he might have to take a greyshirt and at the last moment he decided to go to UK where he had an immediate full ride. Good for him. Your ignorance on this subject precedes you.

When Saban signed his biggest class of 32 for example in 08 Bama actually came in 1 player under the 85 man limit in the fall because of that 32 man class 4 didn’t qualify, 2 went pro baseball, and 2 delayed enrollment because they suffered severe high school injuries that would have meant spending their freshman year redshirting and rehabbing. This is why coaches oversign Jeff- to account for normal attrition such as this and because on the current roster there will probably be players who are booted due to legal or disciplinary trouble, transfer of their own accord due to lack of playing time, flunk out, or take a medical scholly in the case of Prothro.

There is no “massaging” the numbers. Attrition happens Jeff. If a coach has room for 18 but signs 25 its because he knows that there will be natural attrition of players already on a team and players just signed. Some will not qualify to get in- happens every year and in Tommy Tubberville’s last recruiting class 40% of his signees never even made it to campus. More on that in a moment.

Did those signed players get pushed into a black hole? Um. No. Several of them just won’t meet the NCAA qualifying numbers. This happens everywhere.

And how about players like Zach Mettenberger or Jimmy Johns? Did they get thrown down a black hole? Um. No. They and numerous players around the conference get shown the door when they get in legal trouble and break rules and laws that embarrass the institution. This is another reason for attrition- legal and disciplinary problem players currently on a roster.

And players like Logan Gray who transferred? Did they get thrown down a black hole? Um. No. They simply were buried on the depth chart and chose to transfer somewhere where they could get playing time. This happens EVERYWHERE and accounts for attrition.

Medical scholarships? Um. Next you’re going to tell me that Tyrone Prothro was really ok to play and didn’t need a medical scholly. And then you’re going to tell me that you moonlight as an orthopedic surgeon and that other players such as Ivan Matchett really didn’t completely blow their knees out.

Here is why you oversign. 3 years after Tubb’s last recruiting class AU has 53 players on scholarship for 2011 and with 25 coming in the fall AU will still be 7 under the scholarship limit of 85. They will have 78 on scholarship. That’s 7 schollies, most of which usually go to young black men, that will go to waste all because of holier than thou ignoramuses like yourself who complain about over signing. You don’t have a clue sir.

When this unusual attrition to AU and the same attrition hit UT in Kiffin’s first year due mostly to transfers both AU and UT played with 17 and 13 fewer scholarshipped players than everyone else. 30 schollies going to waste and 30 young men- mostly poor and mostly black- who didn’t get to live the dream of big time college football. Get off your moral high horse and explain to me why you think its ok for 30 schollies to go to waste all because a coach can’t oversign to compensate for unusual years of attrition.

So now unfortunately there will be more young men who lose out on scholarship opportunities all so that a morally self righteous blowhard like yourself and some of these other fools can talk about curbing some sort of evil practice.

The single point that you have in your favor is that at LSU and S. Carolina the head coaches oversigned and players that they didn’t think would qualify qualified and hence 1 or 2 players at LSU and Carolina thought they had schollies when they didn’t- never mind that they still could have greyshirted and just come 1 semester later. This was just poorly handled by both Spurrier and Miles. You can criticize the 2 of them but no Saban.

In Saban’s case only a handful of players have greyshirted in his 5 years- 3 or 4 I think, and in each case all of them were 100% aware of the possibility of a greyshirt if every other player qualified. There were zero surprises to these players.

Next time look at both sides of an issue before spouting nonsensical hyperbole.

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Do you realize the 25 scholarship limit only counts from December 1 – August 1? SEC schools can still oversign as many players as they want from August 2 through November 30.

The SEC established no yearly limit on signees.

The SEC West schools are very happy with this outcome.

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I see you also failed to mention all those players who lose their scholly due to oversigning. I think you’re too close to the athletic side of college athletics and have a biased perspective.

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Tdawg

June 3rd, 2011
10:11 pm

Blackoutanyone are you retarted or just plain stupid? I’d go for retarted if I were you.- Tdawg

Priceless- a dawg fan calling a Bama fan retarted twice and not realizing that its actually spelled retarded.

trupert

June 3rd, 2011
10:31 pm

@Blackoutanyone, there you go again, always talking out your you know what.

You might want to check your stats trupert. Bama is 6th in the SEC in oversigning during the Saban era and if you include the 2011 class which only has 22 or 23 signees Bama is probably 7th or 8th in the conference.

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Just to clarify an argument that continues to flaw any conversation. Signing a player and enrolling a player are two separate issues. According to a report written 3 years ago by Stanford University and funded by the NCAA, the average number of players who qualify academically, Cleared by the Clearing House is 3.8 athletes less than the number of players signed by the SEC Schools on average. The ACC numbers were 3.4, the Big 10 was 3.2 and the PAC 10 was 4.1, while the Big 12 was 3.9. Those numbers were reflective of the years 2004- to 2007 and were before and after the 28 rule number was put in place.

The differences is that in most cases the recruiting coordinators and head coaches know certain players will never make it unless they attend a JC or a Prep school.

Does anyone on this blog have any idea of how many Football signees were drafted in Baseball and never put on shoulder pads at the school they signed with? In 2008 there were 11, in 2009 there were 8 and that is just the SEC. How many went to prep schools? 17, How many went to JC? 29
How many did not qualify and still never went to JC? 7 all in 2009.

During the years of 1998 to 2008 how many UGA signees went to Prep schools? I think the number will surprise you. For many many years the Hargrave Military school was known as UGA jr college for many many people looking for a way for a kid to get back home with a little extra help on the academic side.

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@Tide Rising
Buddy, get a life!
Who the hell is going to read that? It”s longer than War and Peace or Moby Dick for gosh sakes…..
I’m sure Paul Finebum will get to the bottom of the facts – right?

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For the love of…

Few people will read it. But I guarantee jeff will read all of it.

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I’m out and have definitely said my piece. My Jeff and some of you numbskulls actually learned something about why coaches oversign. Its called attrition and it happens to every program.

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Schultz, I think the thing bothering Saban is that you and others never offer an objective viewpoint. You always portray it as kids being duped, which is basically a lie. They know the risks, you just take them for idiots. But I do enjoy how Saban gives you so much heartburn.

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Good to see you back Tide Rising, with a vengeance

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LakeDawg,

Name a player that lost a scholarship that signed with Alabama? There is none.

I just want to clarify one point that someone keeps repeating that is a total inaccurate statement.

Currently in the SEC, there are 107 Football players who play football but are NOT on Football scholarship, they are on academic scholarships. Vanderbilt leads the conference with 19, Florida has 8 or 9 depending on which report is correct, Alabama has 7, UGA has 4, Auburn has at last report 4. On top of that it is a fact that over 5 football players on Alabama’s 2010 roster are in school being paid by their parents who are very well to do families with histories at the University of Alabama.

Throwing the number 88 out there is a bold face fabricated number. Not going to argue a point that is opinion, just wanted to make sure some numbers reflect the truth to some degree.

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Alabama rising, Why do you think the SEC is now going to monitor these medical hardships. It will forever be known as the Saban rule, and for good reason.

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trupert,

Did you know that Mr. Kirschman actually had to have surgery after his medical scholarship was accepted? That is a fact, reported that somehow goes unplublished that his back was far worse than even he realized less than one year later. Look it up, he recanted this story less than a year later and apologized for his aggressive tone in the article.

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Schulz. I realize its part of your job description to be a whiny b_watch. However, this was a move in the right direction to equalize the sec playing field. As a UGA fan its my job to be happy about something that pulls saban back to the field

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Let me guess, Jeff – you want 4 years, guaranteed, no matter what. Once granted, never revoked? For any reason other than a string of Fs or a felony?

If that’s not what you want, what’s an acceptable criteria? What’s your desired solution? Speak up. If they didn’t go far enough, who would you like the SEC to look like in their roster management and why?

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Blackoutanyone?, so your statement about it being to easy to pander to the UGA crowd was not a shot at Georgia fans? Could have fooled the heck out of me. I’ve read a great deal of your post and you are one wishy washy poster. One post you’re berating Georgia and the very next post you are somewhat giving it some credit. I think that I read that statement correctly. That was not one of your ” giving Georgia fans credit” post.

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I just laugh at the bama fans commenting in this blog. You are freaking clueless.

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Tide Rising what does spelling have to do with being stupid or retarted or retarded? If I read all of your post and find an error which I would eventually do even if you are using your spell check. Would that make you stupid or retarded? Don’t think so. You could be a rocket scientist and still make errors. I wasn’t criticizing his pronunciation or his spelling. I was questioning his state of mind so get over yourself. You make mistakes no matter what you say.

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Yes there is still room for manipulation but much less than before. Having only a maximum of 100 signees over 4 years doesn’t leave that many players per year to cull. Normal attrition will make the numbers close to 85 without running people off.

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Enter your comments here

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It’s all about the money!

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[...] 2. Jeff Schultz: “The SEC, as the highest-profile college football conference in the nation, had a chance to make a loud statement at its meetings this week. It kind of wimped out.” [...]

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[...] The SEC didn’t go nearly enough, writes Jeff Schultz of the AJC. [...]

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Will everyone just calm down! So they move people in and out based on their talent level, and student-athlete is a joke. Now they want to pay athletes to come and get an education (that cost an over $100,00 loan otherwise). Education dumbed down a long time ago, so don’t be morally indignant now folks, that boat has already sailed. If college football wasn’t the most lucrative sport (save the NFL), then changing rules and enforcing rules would be easy. College football is a college business because we started bringing in non-students to play the game decades ago. So shut up and enjoy the game!!

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Do you think this gives Corch Richt more time to work on his fabulous tan? Or what about more time to pursue his diving expertise?

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I generally don’t get fired up over comments on blog postings, but when Dawglasville places UGA and UF in a category with Vandy regarding academics, I had to post after I stopped laughing uncontrollably for a few minutes.

Give me a break, dude. Vanderbilt is a top-20 institution and UGA is a top-100 institution. Comparing them academically is like comparing Vandy and UGA in football. UF and UGA are football factories andgood state schools, but they are not in Vandy’s class academically. We know our role – know yours.

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This is not a Bama v. the SEC issue. This is an SEC/Big 12 v. Big Ten/Pac 12 issue. My opinion is that SEC and Big 12 schools (outside of Vanderbilt and Baylor) have to resort to oversigning because the kind of kid they sign is a greater risk to flunk out, so the SEC schools need the wiggle room. Pac 12 and Big Ten schools generally don’t do this. Big 12 and SEC schools do. The SEC and Big 12 are trying to push the media and NCAA back without losing an advantage they know they need.

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[...] that a big deal?  Eh, I’m not sure it’s as big as some make it out to be, at least in a conference where roster evaluations like the one we recently saw take place at [...]

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I don’t read the ajc expecting any fair treatment of my alma mater. The primary purpose of sports writing is to sell newspapers and advertising in the circulation area.

The success of Florida, Auburn and Alabama football gnaws at the heart of the UGA faithful and the ajc panders to that pain.

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Seems to me the SEC is all about abusing a kid…..”sorry, son, you just ain’t good enough”

Tressel was out to protect a kid albeit by sordid methods.

Who’s the villan?

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“Mark Richt is a good man and a lousy football coach.” Anonymous dawg on the radio last week.

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“NCAA moral compass be damned.” It is the NCAA who should be damned. Spare me the idea that the NCAA has a moral compass. I never had complete faith in the NCAA. However, I completely lost all faith in the Organization when, after the Ohio State FIVE were originally found to have committed wrongdoing, they were allowed to play in the Sugar Bowl, only to have their punishment pushed out a year.

I keep hearing that Ohio State needs to be a winning team for College Football to be “good”. Hogwash. Alabama went through poor times recently and so has Michigan. It hasn’t killed the game.

Over-signing may be a problem, but the NCAA is the bigger problem. Prove yourself to be a neutral party regardless of who commits infractions. Then I’ll believe in your “moral compass”.

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I don’t think Mark Richt is cut throat but I do think he is out for his own best interest. All coaches are out for their own best interest. Coaching is their profession. Loyalty is for fans who have no financial stake in the success of their team.

Muschamp didn’t go to Florida as an act of disloyalty to UGA, he did it to advance himself in the coaching profession and thereby provide for his family. If RIcht leaves or is fired Kirby Smart will likely return to UGA. It will not be due to his love of UGA, it will be because it would be a career advancement. He might end up going to Ohio State if Richt remains at UGA.

How many of you have turned down a promotion opportunity because you were “loyal” to your old boss?

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12 SEC coaches, a unanimous number, voted against this legislation. The reason is very clear, this does NOTHING to address the oversigning issue and puts the league at a competitive disadvantage with the other conferences.

It may make the league presidents feel good to raise their hands and shout “Look at us, we’re Mr, Goody two-shoes”, but that’s all it accomplished beside making it easier for ACC and other teams to win games vs the SEC.

I think the SEC presidents are gutless wonders that caved in to pressure from the media to “do something, even if it’s wrong.”

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tide rising and the rest of you RTR’ers……

I agree with what you say regarding all of this. Thank you for the enjoyable and educational reading. WDE!

The issues are not oversigning, but over-enrolling, not attrition, but forced attrition. I don’t believe the problem is widespread, with only a few isolated cases (LSU/USCe). The media missed the ball completely with this….missed the entire ballpark rather.

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Tide Rising, you’re a scumbag of epic proportions, and Bama is a cess pool

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The SEC Presidents’ meeting resembles a parle of pirates in a Jack Sparrow movie. They aren’t gutless when it comes to advancing their own self interests. I do not understand how a coach can deny a scholarship to a player who signs with a school and meets admission standards. There is an interesting book called The Thin Thirty about Charlie Bradshaw forcing players to quit at UK and tricking them into giving up their scholarship. I understood that, at least in the past, the scholarship was a permanent agreement between the player and the school and was void only if the player flunked out or committed a crime. If that is not the rule now, it should be.

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Richt won’t be around next year to whine about this anymore.

This issue is closed.

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Tdawg…. I usually only post in the recruiting blog as it relates to Bama prospects and try to avoid the mudslinging but it can be fun from time to time. I think your taking this a little too serious. Bama fans will defend our program just as any other SEC fan base will. That is usually when I get drug into a crap throwing contest with individuals like yourself. I respect your passion for the Bulldogs. Calling me “retarted” lol…is just part of talking football in the SEC. As for last years team. Something you need to understand. While preseason rankings mean very little… it is very important to be in the conversation. Alabama was and will be in the conversation for the BCS national championship for many years to come. Hopefully Richt will turn it around this year and UGA will be in the conversation by week 3. That is actually my prediction and I have been on record for many months. As for pandering to the UGA fan base… that’s exactly what Schultz did. Oversigning has been a hot topic in Georgia as Richt was on record a few weeks ago saying he would never do it. Most fans on these forums have jumped in line and love to use it as the reason Richt has lost Georgia prospects to Alabama. So I feel it was a cheap shot at Saban and an attempt to pander to the UGA crowd. Not sure why you take exception to that… not like calling you retarted or something. ROLL TIDE

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Jeff, the lesson seems to be: “If it ain’t broke (i.e., you’re caught, indicted, and can’t find a jury you can buffalo), don’t fix it (i.e., rules will bend around a football like light in the presence of mass). You never seem to learn. I did like the analogy to the Securities and Exchange Commission and it’s ostensible purpose to provide the illusion of legitimacy in a similar ethical vacuum. Maybe the best solution is to have all roster management activity made public and accessible, and take measure of the public’s capacity to accept the sausage.

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Old SEC math 28 + 28 + 28 + 28 = 85
New SEC math 25 + 25 + 25 + 25 = 85

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“People bring it up that I’ve medical-ed more people,”Nick Saban said in response to criticism about his practices. “Well, yeah, I medical them so they can stay in school and graduate where other people just get rid of them.”

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Good points Jeff. The obvious answer, as you understand, is you should never be allowed to have more than 85 kids on scholarship. Nevertheless, as I stated in response to your other article on this subject. as long as the policing of the scholarship process is in the hands of the SEC office this will not be effective. Anyone who can read knows that Cam Newton was ineligible under the current SEC rules as written. As long as folks who can’t read are in charge of overseeing the scholarship process, Nick Saban will do exactly as he pleases. As I also stated in my earlier comment, Nick Saban is a whole lot smarter than anyone in the “SEC office.” Houston Nutt? Not so much.

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Obviously – The point I was trying to make, apparently not clearly enough, was that you can only sign a number in any given year that, when added to those already on scholarship, equals 85. Like I tell my law students, I can explain to you but I can;t understand for you. Either you see it or you don’t.

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I do agree with Saban on a key point. Here’s the problem illustrated by a hypo: Suppose Ole Miss has 60 guys on scholarship. Then they sign 32 the next year on signing day. They oversigned because 8 to 10 of their signees may not actually qualify. Let;s say that only 4 do not qualify. Now Ole Miss has to do something to get down to 85. In the past they might grayshirt 3 guys or lose 3 guys already on campus to academic attrition, etc. With a hard number approach like I have proposed, kids who are potentially non-qualifiers will not be getting as many offers because of the lack of wiggle room. That bothers me, but so long as some coaches openly abuse the process, I would rather simply let those kids be recruited only by the jucos and let them get recruited later (after they actually qualify). Admittedly a tough call. I suppose that was a concern of the presidents and may explain why they opted for the 25 a year limit.

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I’m not going to dwell inot the specifics of what coach is or is not doing, bottomline it evidently is a problem and certain schools, which seem to choose to make excuses for it have a problem..I think the NCAA needs to address the situation but I think the SEC has at least made an effort to prevent some of the abuses that are going on…Its amazing though to read some comments that Shultz is pandering to UGA…Are you kidding me…He is and has always been one of our biggest critics, so I can’t buy that one…

I don’t pretend to have the answer as so many on here seem to have, but hopefully kids that want to come to your school can still have that opportunity whether by grayshirting or walk-on…Thats the way it should be and there should be no pressuring a young man to leave, unless its due to grades on off field issues, etc…Anyone having a problem with whats going on or has been going on is in denial in my opinion…But I will agree this is not all about Saban, Nutt, or Spurrier….At some point I’m sure all schools have sat down with a young man and had some discussions…What the SEC is trying to do is addressing some of the abuses by some coaches, and yes there have been some, no need to deny it, and make it a level playing field…but again, to think Shultz is pandering to the dawg nation…read most of his negative articles towards UGA and Coach Richt…I have and I totally agree with Shultz on this one….go dawgs

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TR – What would you propose to prevent abuse such as you describe by Nutt? You seem to have thought about the problem in some depth.

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Will Roster Management be offered as a major at SEC schools?

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Dawg Tired,

The imposed limit of 28 was just fine- there was no reason to mess with it. Here is my big issue with this whole thing- its 2 fold. As you pointed out players on the academic fringe now may not be offered because a coach has less wiggle room- so that means these players may lose out the opportunity for a scholly even if they do end up qualifying. And that’s a shame.

Secondly I think its a moral issue. Most of these schollys go to young black men- many of them from disadvantaged backgrounds. When you have hard caps there are going to be years when unusual attrition hits certain programs and those programs end up way under the limit.

2 good examples. When Kiffin came to UT 11 players transferred and there was unusual attrition. UT actually played with only 68 scholarship players Kiffin’s first year. That’s 17 schollies, most of which go to underprivileged young black men, that go to waste. If you can’t oversign the next several years to catch up to the 85 man limit then that’s nothing more than unused schollies going to waste.

Same thing happened to AU. In Tubbs last class 40% of his recruits never made it in. AU has been oversigning like crazy the last 2 years and even with a 25 man freshman class reporting in the fall AU will be 7 under the limit at 78 total players in the fall. That’s 7 schollies going to waste and the same year that Kiffin had only 68 players I believe AU had only 72 players on scholly.

With the new 25 man cap it will probably still take AU and UT a few more years of hoping everyone qualifies to get up to the 85 man limit like everyone else. That’s just wasted schollies. If they were allowed to oversign then sure 1 or possibly 2 players a year would maybe have to greyshirt and delay enrollment 1 semester but what’s worse? That 1 or 2 players that needed development time anyway sit out a semester and work on building their bodies at a gym? Or lots of scholarships going unused all because some self righteous blowhards whined about oversigning? In the case of UT and AU in 1 year alone that amounted to about 30 schollies 13 at AU and 17 at UT that just went to waste. And that is not right.

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TR – Thanks for your thoughts.

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Well, at least it’s over now for a while. The most disappointing aspect of this whole issue was how Schultz and the moralizing media at large deliberately told only half the story of over-signing. They created a fictional narrative and passed it off as fact. Blogs were repeatedly used to construct a heartbreaking story of poor, unsuspecting recruits having the rug pulled out from under them at the last minute, losing their scholarships, having their lives wrecked, destroying any chance at success in life.
The whole story was rarely offered — that signees are told up front about the policies and risks and that they are perfectly free to opt in or decline. In other words, taking a real life decision and living with it. For some reason Schultz considers such a concept to be immoral, yet neither he or his supporters ever explains why. It was also never mentioned that the worst case scenario for these kids is that they could wind up transferring to another school, still on scholarship so their educational opportunities and dreams would still be intact, just at a different location. Hardly a tragic outcome. They created uproars over two mistakes made at LSU and South Carolina the last two years and ignored the over five hundred other signees without issues during the same period. But to acknowledge such facts would seriously weaken the “poor victim” thesis of the sham.
By not telling the whole story, Schultz is essentially a liar. He chooses to demagogue on one side. And at first glance it appeared that his efforts had prevailed. But it’s clear the changes weren’t nearly as radical as the he had hoped for, after all Schultz is a nanny and nannies are never be satisfied until everyone has a trophy. But maybe now “Nanny” Schultz can move on to “fix” other burning issues, such as the cowbells of Miss. St.

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SecGuy,

Don’t forget also that although mistakes were made in the recruitment of 1 or 2 guys at LSU and South Carolina that those guys still had offers to greyshirt. They would simply have had to enroll 1 semester later if they wanted to play at their dream school. It wasn’t the end of the world for these guys. And if they are the marginal, last guys in a class- usually lineman- then they could use that extra time to bulk up in the gym and get a head start before enrolling. As you stated its not anywhere near as bad as Jeff makes it out to be. Anyway I’m out.

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Alabama Whiners Blog – Too Funny!
I bet if you Saban fans read the blogs in some other SEC states you will be whining there too.

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Nick Saban doesn’t care about hurting these kids feelings if he tells them no scholly after one year, the guy just wants to WIN and will find every loophole possible to do this, he is the Anti_Richt. But he has one two MNC so he has the respect…

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85 scholarships divided by 4yrs is 21.25 shouldn’t the limit just be 23 and be done with it?

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SEC Fan,

Name one player saban has ran off after a year or even 3 or 4 years for reasons other than for discipline or legal issues. You can’t.

Dawglassville,

Plantation mentality? And that applies to oversigning how? If you’re going to bloviate about “plantation mentality” then we might as well just get rid of college football and b-ball period.

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….Hopefully this topic will enter the recycled bin/trash heap shortly… I say sign all the players you want and let’s get it on! We need about 10 more lineman on the O-line…. Anyone got some to spare???

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Mike P,

The red shirt process as I understand must now be officially looked at per individual case by the SEC office and that case must be presented by the coach, athletic director of the school, as well as the team doctor. Don’t know that this changes anything.
Perhaps, they could have helped the whole situation out if they would have required that no one can be signed until they are academically qualified for college. It seems sad to me, that the kid gets a letter, and yet in a lot of cases, he hasn’t even taken the SAT or ACT and if he has, he has to retake it again to get a higher score. This is a problem that coaches have to put up with and they should not have to.
The problem of course lies with the high school, their coaches and the parents in a lot of cases. It is bad enough that they have different standards they have to meet, to remain qualified under the rules of the athletic scholarship as it is. Athletic scholarships standards almost guarantee that most of the athletes will not get the required amount of course work to graduate in the first place. Every team is guilty of offering scholarships to people who are not academically qualified with the possible exception of Vanderbilt, but let’s face it, people go to those type of schools for the most part to receive a good education.
Over all, the whole darn business involved in with recruiting these kids needs to be over hauled. I doubt though, this will ever happen though, since it really is all about the money. Few of these presidents and even fewer of these coaches really give a darn about the player as it is.
I do not see this as an SEC problem, and I don’t see it as any more of a problem for the SEC than any other school. The advantage, if there is any, would be done away with if the NCAA would just institute a rule that states, no scholarship can be tendered or letter offered officially until the athlete is qualified to attend school academically.

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Mike P,

That probably is the one point we don’t see eye to eye on, and that is releasing the kid, if he is not all you thought he was, when you evaluated him. I realize that a scholarship is one year at a time, but for some of these kids, going to college through a scholarship is their only way to get to college. I would rather, there be some type of scholarship awarded them, if they don’t measure up athletically, than just kicking them off the team and consequently, out of college. I know that this would of course lead to abuses but at least the kid might be able to get a better shot at life this way. Of course, this might be a problem also, as a lot of these athletes, do not progress in their pursuit of a degree at anywhere near the pace of the normal student. I guess, I just think more of the kids future, and less about the school’s team.
It seems to me that our kids are falling further and further behind the world in education, and although I am one die hard football fan, I hate to see a kid not have a chance, no matter what. Who knows, maybe once the kid is away from the football team, he might be able to pick up his academics to a normal level. Putting him on the street, almost assures him of being in trouble and a less than productive member of society.

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Shultz, if you don’t realize by now that money is the bottom line, there is no hope for you. All your worthless moralizing will never trump Title 9, the real cause of the problems with college football.

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Would somebody please explain to me how Ala can claim 13 Nat’l Championships?

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A coach can still dismiss a player that he believes to be under performing. All he has to do is refuse to renew the kid’s scholarship for another year. Happens all the time.- MikeP

MikeP,

Um. Really? I’m calling BS on that one. Please show me a player at Bama, AU, Georgia, etc who had his scholly non renewed after a year or 2 for the simple reason that the coaches deemed that he wasn’t good enough. Happens all the time huh? That is a statement on your behalf of truly breathtaking ignorance. As a Bama fan I can tell you that you can’t find one single player who was cut after a year or two “because he wasn’t good enough”. Same at other schools. Your assertion that this “happens all the time” is utter nonsense.

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Did bradley get taken in the rapture?

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“Welcome to the NCAA’s mission: Winning and making money, moral compass be damned.”

That should read “… the SEC’s mission”.

Perhaps its time for schools to answer a simple internal question: Are we offering scholarships to play, or are we offering scholarships to play AND get a college degree?

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I just don’t agree with the whole premise of a scholarship to play football ACTUALLY being four 1-year contractual agreements. It inserts the whole “take advantage of them before they take advantage of me” attitude that is rampant in today’s NCAA sports (particularly Football and Basketball). How can you expect a kid to have a 4-year allegiance and commitment to a school and an education when right off the bat they have to sign a business-like contract in order to do it???

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MikeP,

Are you just stupid?

Tyrone Prothro was one of those players. Is your mind going to tell me Tyrone Prothro was run off the team. The man now has one leg shorter than the other. Freshman Ivan Matchett completely shattered his knee. I suppose you are going to tell him and the orthopedic staff that his knee is a okay and that Saban just ran him off. Same with Keith Mckellar’s son- a promising 6′6 290lb tackle recruit. He had his wrist operated on three times before ever even playing as a freshman. A couple of orthopedists determined that his wrist would never hold up as an offensive tackle who uses his hands quite a bit.

The single player who complained publicly about a medical redshirt was Charlie Kirschman in a wsj article on over signing. Kirschman thought his back was fine and that he was ok to play despite the staff’s insistence that he take a medical redshirt. As it turned out he had to have a back operation a year after the medical scholly. He publicly recanted the story and let everyone know he was wrong about the extent of the injury.

Are you so profoundly stupid that you don’t understand that Bama just had an unusual number of career ending injuries over 4 1/2 years Saban has been there. You automatically think if someone has a career ending injury that its really just saban running the guy off? Please show me where you are an orthopedic surgeon who personally examined all 13 players and then maybe you will have some credibility. Until the just STFU you blithering idiot.

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Yep, when I think of someone who sincerely cares for Students/Athletes, I think of Saban.

(And the government creates jobs!)

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Tide Falling: Prothro was hurt before Saban got there. You named four injured players, which is still four times the number of other schools. What about the other nine Saban put on medical scholarship?

You asked for names, here ya’ go: Corey Grant and Petey Smith have both been “processed” in the last few days. Processed at bammer means cut from the team to make room for better signees under the 85 rule. Saban still has six more to process before fall term starts at UAT. Happy now? Are you taking bets on which six will have their scholarships yanked as were the two I just named?

Note to those cheering the new rules: Nothing was passed that will prevent what’s happening in Tuscaloosa this year from happening again next year.

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Even though he is gone next year, Richt’s name will live in infamy in SEC circles for a long time, like Bobby Dodd.

The other conferences just sent a big “thank you” to RIcht for crippling the SEC competitively.

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I know UGA fans are pushing hard for this, as your football relevance is waning with each passing day. It will not matter, you will still get dominated by the true ballers in this league. It is over UGA, you lost. I talk you listen.

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Maybe once I am done with South Carolina, I will go coach Tech from a wheelchair. I would love to do it just to piss you off. UGA should build a statue of me outside your dump of a stadium. I am bigger than your football team, and it will show that you respect the man that is single handidly driving your once proud program into the ground

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I was quite relevant when I outcoached your boy Saban last year. Don’t worry, you wont have to see my team till the SEC title game. Perhaps then we shall revisit the relevancy argument. I talk you listen.

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Spurrier,

Since you have been at S C you have forever tarnished your reputation in the eyes of SEC fans. You used to be straight up as a coach but now, it is win at any cost for you. One half decent year and all of the sudden you are the toast of the SEC? What a joke of a coach Spurrier has become. I think you spent too much time at the redskins, and it affected your mind and honesty.

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Spurrier what exactly again is your record vs CMR…yeah I know where you can put that pinky…

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Jeff thanks for your article; this is not the college sports action that I grew up with and loved; not the one I watched firsthand as an underclassman at a major college institution. The greed and desire for fame , money and power continues to proliferate. I am embarrassed by it all and by the fans who have bought into the madness.

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My record is 2-4 against preacher boy. He can only beat me when UGA fields a teamwith vastly superior talent. That is not the case anymore, so prepare for a shellacking that has never been seen before at Sanford in September. I talk you listen

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kicking

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@ Dawglasville – “Matt – you may or may not see this. According to US News Vandy is 15, and UGA an UF are tied at 56 (maybe 54). All of the rest of the schools in the SEC are not even in the top 100.”

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/spp%2B50/page+2

Alabama is at 79. Wow, what a gulf between 56 & 79 for colleges across the nation. Feeling a little stupid now? I would.

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