Trades (Part II): Should Hawks deal Josh for point guard?
Josh Smith had two offensive fouls and missed three three-point shots in fourth at Milwaukee.
(It’s trade talk Thursday. For Part I on the Thrashers, click here.)
There were few secrets about the Hawks going into this season.
We knew they overpaid for Joe Johnson but management felt his scoring couldn’t be replaced. We knew Al Horford made the All-Star team as a center but he would be so much better at power forward. We knew Josh Smith could be either the most dominant player on the floor or a complete pill, depending on the week, or the game, or the moment.
Here’s what we didn’t know for certain: Could Jeff Teague be an adequate replacement at point guard, since it had become apparent that Mike Bibby’s 32-year-old legs turned to linguini last season? The answer right now is no.
New Hawks coach Larry Drew has done an admirable job this season, steering the team to a 29-17 record despite several injuries and bringing a new philosophy to the offense. But unless the Hawks have a floor leader up top running the offense, they’re probably not going very deep in the postseason again.
This is when we come back to the issue of whether it’s time to change the look of this team. It’s not going to be at center because there just aren’t many good ones. So that means trading Josh Smith for a point guard.
Forget trading Horford, who’s the Hawks only universally embraced player. Forget trading Johnson, who makes too much money. That leaves Smith, who on some nights looks like he finally has arrived and on other nights looks like he doesn’t get it and will never get it — like Wednesday in Milwaukee.
Chauncey Billups would take charge for the Hawks.
The Hawks blew an 11-point lead by allowing the NBA’s worst offensive team (the Bucks) to score 34 points in the fourth quarter. Smith was the biggest problem. He had two offensive fouls and was one for six from the floor. He missed three three-point shots. Why did he even take three three-point shots?
It would be great if general manager Rick Sund could somehow swing a deal for a take charge point guard who simply would look at Smith waving his arms in the corner, laugh and then look in the other direction and give the ball to someone else. But the Hawks don’t have that leader right now. The two best candidates who could help this team likely require dealing Smith in a trade: Denver’s Chauncey Billups — not the Nuggets’ Carmelo Anthony, as rumored, because he’s a scorer and doesn’t fit what the Hawks need – or Phoenix’s Steve Nash.
Billups is 36 and Nash is 34. They’re old. But either would far exceed the three-headed monster of Bibby, Teague and Jamal Crawford (a terrific scorer but not a true point). Billups or Nash also would give the Hawks a couple of years to either develop Teague (if they still believe he can be developed) or draft somebody else to develop.
When asked about Teague, Drew admitted, “I had hoped he would be further along. So we’ve had to go with what’s been good to us. Mike is up there in age but he’s still been pretty productive.”
Drew said he’s resting Bibby enough that he’s not overly concerned about the player wearing down in the second half and in the postseason. When asked about defenses breaking down the Hawks, he said, “It does start [at point guard], but most of our breakdowns on top will be off the pick and roll. … From a breakdown standpoint, it’s certainly the head of the snake for us. We have to have ball containment. But that’s true with everybody on the perimeter.”
The NBA trade deadline is Feb. 24. Will Sund act? He never publicly discusses his plans (or sometimes even general thoughts) on the roster. But he is, by nature, deliberate. He doesn’t do things quickly. He doesn’t have a reputation for being real proactive. So it’s debatable whether a Smith deal would be seriously explored.
Also key: Hawks ownership always has been a big Smith fan, and believes he carries marketing value.
If Sund can make a deal for a point guard without trading Smith, great. The expiring contracts of Crawford ($10 million) and Maurice Evans ($2.5 million) have some trade value. But this team needs more than a Band-Aid at point guard. It might be time for a makeover.
By Jeff Schultz
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EARLIER: Trade focus (Part I): Thrashers need help but will they get it?
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201 comments Add your comment
St. Bernard
January 27th, 2011
4:26 pm
I’d give anything for Paul. I would imagine that if Nash really came, that Marvin would become an all-star by the time Nash retired. Honestly, I might like to see Nash give us a shot at winning it all for two or three years than to keep hoping that we get a pg before the “core group” gets to old.
O'Brien
January 27th, 2011
4:28 pm
Josh’s defense is usually good regardless of his offense, but sometimes he pouts and whines too much (like last night when he was busy whining to the ref, so he didnt see 5′5″ Earl Boykins sneaking in for a bucket), and his shot selection is horrible at key moments.
I am a Josh Smith fan, but his inconsistency is maddening at times. He is young and talented, and with the right coach (not LD or Woody), I think he would improve even more.
If the Hawks do trade him, they better get a big return, because Josh is the kind of talent that if he ever puts it all together, could make the Hawks really regret trading him.
Jeff Schultz
January 27th, 2011
4:29 pm
Dawg Boi … And why does Phoenix want Marvin and Bibby?
For Real
January 27th, 2011
4:31 pm
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
Jeff Schultz
January 27th, 2011
4:32 pm
O’Brien (and others) about Josh shooting 3s — I really don’t have a problem with him firing them up once in a while. He’s not an awful shooter. But that’s clearly not the strength of his game. I’m opposed to anything that pulls him away from the basket. He needs to be flying to the hoop, crashing boards, etc. That’s his strength.
jfreak13713
January 27th, 2011
4:38 pm
Would hate to see Josh go because he seems to have more upside but the team as it is can’t win in a big time playoff series. I would prefere to trade Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams but nobody will take them so that really does leave only Josh Smith a trade bait? I don’t see the Hawks having the guts to make a big move but we’ll see.
By the way the Hawks are still pretty good team and we can be gratefull for that but with winning comes higher expectations and if the Hawks want their fans to have higher expectations which is what puts people in the seats then they need to seriously consider make some changes that would make them a better playoff team.
Dozer
January 27th, 2011
4:41 pm
Josh Smith is a tease – he plays great against inferior talent, but he isn’t mentally tough enough to lead a team or be a champion. He showed his true colors with his mail-it-in sullfest against Orlando in last year’s playoffs. I’ll take a trade if we can get fair value…….
JohnGTFan
January 27th, 2011
4:42 pm
“For Real”…are you under the assumption that Indiana is brain dead???? The fans would burn the arena down if they got back Bibby and Evans, AND THAT’S IT. WOW.
And let me say to everyone saying Josh is the “D” of the team. I love his energy and athleticism…I’m a big fan of his…always have been…but he’s truly not a “great defensive player”. He’s a great “HELP defender”. One on one defender…he’s average at best. And yes, playing the 3 or the 4, it’s the same, average at best. But when he helps, he’s amazing. IN saying that, I’m not trading him for any old PG, I don’t care if Nene or Lopez were to be included. His value is still ridiculous high. If you’re going to trade him, you better get back serious talent…and I don’t think it’s out there. Just my opinion. I want to see what the “core” lol can do when they’re all on the court together, hopefully for a change, over the next 2 or 3 weeks.
The Real Hawk
January 27th, 2011
4:43 pm
A point guard is needed, yes. However the need was and is a big center or big small forward. An enforcer. We need to know if Teague is another bust as well. That comes with playing him in games not practice.
Rufus1
January 27th, 2011
4:44 pm
I want S.Curry…
GT Alum
January 27th, 2011
4:50 pm
O’Brien -
The consistent decline in overall FG% is what would concern me. I’d be interested to see his shot selection to see if he’s been taking more shots further away from the basket over time. That was one thing I worried about with trying to play Josh at the 3 is that it would inevitably lead him to take more shots from the perimeter.
However, the 3P% isn’t that concerning. The fluctuation is not as severe, and it hasn’t been a steady downward trend.
If Josh is taking more j’s inside the arc, that could be a problem. But, as I said, his 3s aren’t killing the Hawks.
Cp8
January 27th, 2011
4:52 pm
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6avwars
DawgBoi
January 27th, 2011
4:54 pm
Jeff- bc their starting small forward is 38 with no forward depth behind him. Marvin is still young and has potential. Bibby can still shoot and run an offense but more than all of this is they aint winning with what they got now so maybe they go younger. Wishful thinking..
GT Alum
January 27th, 2011
5:00 pm
Josh straight up for either of those guys would not be to the team’s benefit. It would depend on who else is included. Without an actual trade to evaluate though, that means we’re all just throwing out trades that potentially work under the cap. It’s a pretty pointless exercise, unless you’re just working for a way to kill some time at work.
Moe Larry and Curly
January 27th, 2011
5:10 pm
Josh Smith = Andruw Jones
Lazy, Undisciplined, Unreliable
CONservative Johnson
January 27th, 2011
5:18 pm
Did someone actually make the argument that trading Josh Smith would “give Marvin a chance”? How many chances do people think he needs?
We want to give up a player that continues to improve every single year (no matter if some outsider calls him lazy) for a player on the tail end of their career? And some want to do it to give Marvin Williams (who hasn’t shown close to the same level of improvement) yet another chance? Amazing stuff . . .
CONservative Johnson
January 27th, 2011
5:19 pm
Moe Larry and Curly, you mean Andruw Jones who was the best player on the team for the last 10 years that he was here (including and especially in the playoffs)?
Jamaaliver
January 27th, 2011
5:22 pm
Josh Smith = Andruw Jones
PERFECT analogy. Lots of talent, very little discipline.
Jamaaliver
January 27th, 2011
5:28 pm
@CONservative:
Josh’s numbers are actually NOT improving. If anything they’ve dropped the last couple of years. he is now our 4th highest scorer. He’s toppoed out as a 16 ppg scorer.
Horford’s numbers have increased every year though. (Scoring, assists and FG%.)
steve brown
January 27th, 2011
5:31 pm
Kaman (Clipper’s center) is never mentioned by any of you. Am I seeing a racial bias?
the Owl of Prophecy
January 27th, 2011
5:31 pm
Who gives a “rats a$$” about these glanular freaks? They don’t care about winning…only their money!
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
5:40 pm
Neither Billups nor Nash is going to require trading Smoove. The Hawks can probably get either one by dealing Jamal Crawford and his expiring contract, which the Hawks have shown no interest in extending anyway. Considering how abhorrent this team is defensively without Smoove on the floor, trading him for a point guard is not going to make this team significantly better, especially if the point guard in question is Nash (who has always been a bad defender) or Billups (who is old and has lost a lot of the quickness that once made him a good defender).
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
5:41 pm
On the other hand, if you want to deal Smoove for Melo, that is a worthwhile trade provided Melo signs an extension.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
5:43 pm
“I really don’t have a problem with him firing them up once in a while. He’s not an awful shooter. But that’s clearly not the strength of his game. I’m opposed to anything that pulls him away from the basket. ”
As long as the Hawks continue to use him at small forward in their “big lineup”, he is going to get pulled away from the basket.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
5:43 pm
“No discussion of Marvin; would he get us anything decent in return?”
No.
GT Alum
January 27th, 2011
5:43 pm
I think his PPG have leveled off partly because of his role on the team. Up until this year, his shooting percentage had been consistently increasing, meaning he is finding ways to score the same number of points despite having fewer shots. His 3 point % has been consistently improving, and his assist to turnover ratio has been improving.
Also, Horford has 16.3 PPG and Jamal has 16.2 PPG to Josh’s 15.9. Josh could make up that difference with a couple of 25 point games. You make it sound like those guys lead him by a substantial margin.
the Owl of Prophecy
January 27th, 2011
5:48 pm
Folks, this is all well and good and fun to speculate; however, as long as the Atlanta Dumb and Dumber Group own the Hawks, they’ll always be fifth or sixth in the division. I’m thinking Jeff Schultz could have come up with a better topic…like “how many of the Hawks care about winning as much as the fans”.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
5:51 pm
Here are two trades, either one of which would improve the Hawks and have at least a decent chance of being accepted by the other team(s) involved:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=4gyywk6 (with the Hawks sending a first round pick to the Suns)
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6kfsh8z (with the Hawks and Pistons each sending a first round pick to the Nuggets and Carmelo Anthony signing an extension)
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
5:51 pm
Here are two trades, either one of which would improve the Hawks and have at least a decent chance of being accepted by the other team(s) involved:
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
5:51 pm
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=4gyywk6 (with the Hawks sending a first round pick to the Suns)
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
5:52 pm
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6kfsh8z (with the Hawks and Pistons each sending a first round pick to the Nuggets and Carmelo Anthony signing an extension)
GT Alum
January 27th, 2011
5:55 pm
steve brown -
One concern I would have with Kaman would be that he’s only played in 60 games 1 of the past 4 years. How healthy is he?
The other concern would be he doesn’t appear to be a great rebounder. He’s 7′, but he only averages about the same number of rebounds that Josh does, and his block numbers aren’t as good as Josh’s. I haven’t watched the Clippers enough to really get an impression, but his main selling point appears to be that he’s 7′.
Hawks Making Trades? I really doubt it
January 27th, 2011
5:56 pm
“Will Sund act?”
you always here about “Core players” this and “Core players” that and how they don’t want to trade them and disrupt chemistry and such. So I’m pretty sure they’d consider JS a Core Player and as such I can’t really see them trading him (even if they should in order to take that next step). So yeah, consider me surprised if they trade Josh or really .. if they make any trades at all.
Dawg A
January 27th, 2011
5:57 pm
I so agree with you Jeff!!!! Josh is great one night then average the next! He is way too immature to survive in this league. If we can get a above average PG for him….. let him go!!!!
And Marvin Williams is dead weight! I told my wife to watch him the last few games we have gone to that he has played in and all he does is beg for the ball and he is clueless how to pass it once he gets it!! He has never met a shot he doesn’t like!!!
Great article Jeff!!
gimmeabreak
January 27th, 2011
6:00 pm
Jeff what does “Universally Admired” mean when you are refering to AL??? Code word for he is the only player ” WHITE PEOPLE ” Like?? SMH the more things change the more they stay the same. WOW
niremetal
January 27th, 2011
6:03 pm
So we have a problem defending the point, and one of Jeff’s proposed solutions is to trade for…Steve Nash. The one point guard in the NBA whose defense is universally recognized (by people who, you know, actually watch games) as worse than Bibby’s.
Alrighty then.
JSS – DBHB.
Get Real
January 27th, 2011
6:04 pm
How about draft Chris Paul or Deron Williams instead of Marvin Williams…oh…nevermind.
Triforce20
January 27th, 2011
6:17 pm
SCHULTZ,
Trading for Billups is a TERRIBLE idea. Billups is WAY older than Bibby, that is the wrong direction to go in the age department. Besides that, Billups would treat us like how he treated the Nets rumors…Billups was going to get bought out and go back to Denver. He’s from Denver, he loves Denver so much that he told Management that he was willing to stay even if next year is a rebuilding season. He’s not going to want to play for the Hawks. Doing this trade would be like the Gary Payton trade years back…we’d have to buy him out immediately.
Nash also would not want to play here…he knows all the talk is that he needs to win a championship to validate his career. He’s going to a contender, nothing less. Steve Nash would not make the Hawks a title contender. He ain’t coming here.
It’s probably a better idea to go after a different pg on the Nuggets…Ty Lawson. He looks like he will flourish in a starting position, plus Denver’s power forwards are overrated garbage.
Another target would be Golden State. They supposedly are shopping Curry and Josh Smith would fit right in that offense.
steve brown
January 27th, 2011
6:30 pm
GT Alum-in ‘O7-’08 he was an Allstar and 3rd in blocks and rebounds-he is a true center.
Year↓ Team↓ GP↓ GS↓ MPG↓ FG%↓ 3P%↓ FT%↓ RPG↓ APG↓ SPG↓ BPG↓ PPG↓
2003–04 L.A. Clippers 82 61 22.5 .460 .000 .697 5.6 1.0 .3 .9 6.1
2004–05 L.A. Clippers 63 50 25.9 .497 .000 .661 6.7 1.2 .4 1.1 9.1
2005–06 L.A. Clippers 78 78 32.8 .523 .000 .770 9.6 1.0 .6 1.4 11.9
2006–07 L.A. Clippers 75 66 29.0 .451 .000 .741 7.8 1.1 .6 1.5 10.1
2007–08 L.A. Clippers 56 55 37.2 .483 .000 .762 12.7 1.9 .6 2.8 15.7
2008–09 L.A. Clippers 31 24 29.7 .528 .000 .680 8.0 1.5 .6 1.5 12.0
2009–10 L.A. Clippers 76 76 34.3 .490 .000 .749 9.3 1.6 .5 1.2 18.5
Career 461 410 30.0 .489 .000 .737 8.4 1.3 .5 1.4 11.7
All-Star 1 0 10.7 .500 .000 .000 3.0 1.0 .0 .0 4.0
Ryan
January 27th, 2011
6:41 pm
Jesus, For real. That was the dumbest trade scenario I ever read. Every Laker fan thinks that if there is a big name available that they are going to pick them up in a trade. The strength for the Laker is their size on the inside, when healthy Gasol and Bynum are an impossible tandem to handle. Getting Josh Smith significantly weakens their size up front, not to mention ADDS MORE PAYROLL TO A TEAM 30 PLUS MILLION OVER THE CAP. Also, WHY IN THE HELL are the Pacers trading the best player they’ve had since Reggie Miller and the face of their franchise for Mike Bibby and his 1,000 year old Knees and Maurice “Evens” (It’s Evans, by the way) The Pacers already have two good point guards in Darren Collison and TJ Ford, they don’t need another one. You seriously should be banned from ever using the internet or watching basketball again.
Ryan
January 27th, 2011
6:43 pm
Najeh Davenpoop, have you even bothered to look at the Suns roster? They Carter/Hill/Dudley/Childress/Pietrus…All of which play the position that Jamal Crawford plays. The Suns aren’t trading the face of their franchise for an expiring contract and a mid level first round pick in one of the WORST draft classes in recent history. Not to mention, the Suns picked up an extra first round pick in the Orlando trade.
THINK before you POST. Remember, there are two teams involved in trades, not just one.
Legend of Len Barker
January 27th, 2011
6:45 pm
The Hawks are hilarious. They have had the same issues for 3-4 years now and have done nothing.
Teague – Supposed to be our point guard of the future, but the last two coaches barely play him.
Johnson – Past his prime. Everyone knows he’s the go-to guy in every situation. That’s what killed us in the playoffs last year. So, do we get him help? Absolutely not.
Bibby – He’s so far gone, he’s over a second hill. He was supposed to be a late-season playoff rush addition, not your starter for several years.
Pachulia – It’s sad that he’s one of our better big men. It’s really, really sad.
Josh Powell – Why?
Jordan Crawford – Why waste a pick if you don’t plan on playing him? Is it a rule that the Hawks can only play everyone else’s castoffs? Hanno Mottola got more playing time.
Marvin Williams – Can we finally admit that it was a dumb pick and dump him? He’s not going to get any better.
The Josh Smith-Andruw Jones comparison is quite accurate. Give Josh a few years and he’ll likely be just as fat with a shooting percentage that would translate into the Mendoza line.
hbcuclassics
January 27th, 2011
6:51 pm
Wow! Col. Shultz just wrote we should trade 24 yr. old Josh Smith for 36 yr. old Chauncey Billups! Is Denver going to throw in a 1st rd. pick and rocking chair too?
tony
January 27th, 2011
7:01 pm
Send JS and JT to NJ for Devin Harris(PG) and Johan Petro(C).
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
Draft Keith Benson(C)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekNfbYNNswU
GT Alum
January 27th, 2011
7:29 pm
steve brown -
He’s had 2 good years out of 7. He’s been even more inconsistent than Josh has, and he’s had injury issues. In the year you point to, he only played in 56 games. If the Hawks trade for him, how many of the good years are they going to get compared to how many ok years? And how much is he actually going to be in the lineup?
Maybe if he’s looking for a cheaper contract at the end of next season, but that’s very uncertain production for $11M-$12M per.
GT Alum
January 27th, 2011
7:46 pm
I’d trade for Kaman if we could get the Clippers to take Marvin and either ZaZa or Bibby back, but I doubt they’d do that. I wouldn’t trade him for Josh straight, and trading Jamal for him would probably put the Hawks over the cap next season.
Jon
January 27th, 2011
7:51 pm
for steve nash ALL day..chauncy no thanks….TRADE JOE JOHNSON THOUGH NOBODY WANTED HIM!
BravesFan79
January 27th, 2011
7:51 pm
How about that last play of the game the other night…. kick it out… to SMITH?? For a game tying 3!?? WTF He shouldnt of even been in the game at that point!
heartofdarkness
January 27th, 2011
8:01 pm
Walt Frazier is still around. Him and a box of Just for Men.
Grumpy
January 27th, 2011
8:29 pm
Steve Nash carries far more marketing value than Josh Smith.