A word about ‘oversigning’ (and revisiting Saban’s dance)
The numbers show Alabama coach Nick Saban has learned creative ways to say goodbye to some players. (AP photo)
It’s the home stretch of recruiting season, which generally isn’t my favorite time of the year, partly because I find the whole concept of obsessing over where an 18-year-old goes to school as, I dunno, a little creepy.
But here’s one of my biggest issues with recruiting: The practice of “oversigning.” It’s exactly what the term says. NCAA rules mandate a football program can’t give out more than 25 scholarships in one class and have more than 85 scholarship athletes on the roster at one time. Often, the math doesn’t work.
A team may have only 18 spots open but it gives out 25 scholarships. This is “oversigning.” It’s a gray area in the rulebook. Coaches get away with it by rationalizing than some players don’t qualify. So the players are stashed at prep schools or junior colleges, while others are convinced to take medical scholarships. Others are pressured into transferring.
The fact is, some kids are run off because they didn’t turn out to be as good as coaches hoped. So much for the concept of amateur athletics.
Nick Saban is the current poster boy for this practice. The Wall Street Journal did a terrific story back in September, quoting three former Alabama players who said they were pressured into leaving the program, presumably to open spots on the roster.
The website oversigning.com is tracking school’s commitments and available slots. Currently, Mississippi and coach Houston Nutt are at plus-11, followed by Saban/Alabama at plus-10, Les Miles/LSU at plus-9 and Bobby Petrino/Arkansas at plus-8.
Suffice to say, this is a horrible practice. I’m going to expand on this topic more in a column in my next post. I spoke to former Baylor head coach Grant Teaff of the American Football Coaches Association (AFCA).
But until then, this will either amuse you or make you sick. Here’s a transcript of a conversation from 2008 between Saban and former Birmingham News staff writer Ian Rapoport (who now covers the New England Patriots for the Boston Herald). Ian’s a good guy, a solid reporter and a bit of a smart aleck, which is probably why I like him. This give-and-take between he and Saban will tell you all you need to know about how coaches try to finesse things to make the numbers work.
April 15, 2008.
By Ian Rapoport
Some questions, you can’t wait to ask. If a pitcher coming off arm surgery throws a no-hitter in his first start back, it would be fun to ask him, So how does that feel? On the other hand, there are some questions that you simply have to ask. Ya know, because it’s your job. A lot of times, it’s clear that while the answer will be valuable, the process getting there won’t be pretty. Your subject might not want to talk about it. Yeah, you might get yelled at. (Not that you mind…)
Today, after Alabama’s last spring practice, I had one of those situations. One of the big questions, I think, for the offseason is how will coach Nick Saban whittle the roster down to just 85 scholarships? There are 66 on scholarship now, and assume 25 freshman will enroll. That’s 91. So six have to go by August. How? That’s what I asked Saban today. He was entertaining as always. Let’s just say, the conversation was classic:
Me: “The numbers [are the] issue. First, do you know, is Colin Peek on scholarship?”
Saban: (Time to play dumb.) “I don’t know. You ask me, do I know…” (Bad question. Clearly, he knows.)
Me: “I think you do know.” (See?)
Saban: “You’ll have to ask somebody else.” (Cue mischievous grin) “You’re asking the wrong guy.”
Me: (Alright, come on, it’s getting late.) “He is, right?”
Saban: “Yeah.” (Round one: Me!)
Me: (The real questions) “How are you going to handle the numbers and when do you start to worry about it?”
Saban: (Getting a little loud… What, Saban worry?) “I’m not worried about them. It’ll all work out. I mean, the whole thing has a solution to every issue. You don’t put yourself in a position where you don’t know what’s coming, then have to take it in the chops.” (”Chops” is such a dad word. Not that there is anything wrong with that) “Alright? We know how it has to be managed, and it will be managed.”
(Pause)
Saban: “And you don’t need to call me and ask me to write a column for you, and I won’t call you and ask you how to manage our numbers. How’s that?”
Me: (Deal! But when did I suggest how to manage the numbers? If he did ask… I digress.) “I don’t even have a calculator.” (Can’t do math without one of those.)
Saban: (The smile returns.) “You don’t need one to do this.”
Me: (Throwing the hands up in the air.) “So you’re not going to tell us?”
Saban: “I’m not going to tell you what?” (That exit is looking mighty welcoming now.) “It’s none of your business. Alright? And don’t give me this stuff about the fans need to know, because they don’t need to know.”Me: “I would never say that.”
Saban: “Don’t even ask. Alright? So. (Starts to walk out, but he’s got one more zinger before he leaves.) Ya know, I thought we could get this one last thing without having to…” (attempt a scolding?)
Me: (Even I start to laugh at that) “You really thought that? No chance.”
Saban: (Off the podium, he can’t help giggling to himself, too) “Not with you.”
Media relations guru Jeff Purinton: (Escorting Saban out the door) “He (me) needed something to hold him over until the season…”
True. Good times…
I’ll be back later with a column on this topic. Until then, what are your thoughts on the practice of oversigning?
By Jeff Schultz
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296 comments Add your comment
Grammar Man
January 20th, 2011
1:17 pm
We all agree that Urban Meyer is a competitive guy. If there is nothing unethical about oversigning, then why didn’t Urban oversign? It clearly gives the team an advantage, so why wouldn’t he do it? The worst thing about oversigning is it has made me hate LSU, Auburn, Arkansas, Ole Miss, and Alabama more than I hate Florida and Tennessee, and me having a shred of respect for Florida just doesn’t feel good.
Belcher
January 20th, 2011
1:18 pm
Let’s cut all the B.S. and admit that it’s ALL about$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Will
January 20th, 2011
1:18 pm
Most academic scholarships are renewed annually on the basis of academic progress. Falling below a 3.0, for example, will cost you your HOPE Scholarship. Why should athletic scholarships be treated differently? If you fail to meet the athletic progress, you are not renewed.
Tell the truth
January 20th, 2011
1:19 pm
01HAWK that would be SEC LEAST to you.
Tell the truth
January 20th, 2011
1:20 pm
Grammar Man Amen brother.
Willy
January 20th, 2011
1:21 pm
gcs,
You have nothing to support your rationalized argument. Only those 4 players from Tech know their motivation for leaving. It is unfair to assume other people’s reasons for doing things.
gcs
January 20th, 2011
1:21 pm
My point is that so many people want to point the finger at schools like Ole Miss, Alabama & LSU for dastardly forcing a poor underperforming player to transfer. However, transferring happens all the time at every school including Georgia Tech.
99% of the time, athletes transfer because they want more playing time or are unhappy with the program. Saint Mark Richt is not immune to this. Just ask Marcus Dowtin.
.
Bishop Eddie Longs Red Panties
January 20th, 2011
1:22 pm
Saban is the 6 million dollar man get your facts straight There is a reason he makes that kind of
money and it all comes down to results on the gridiron The Alabama athletic program brings in 90
+ million dollars a year so paying him 6 million a year hell we are getting a bargain Roll Tide Roll!
gcs
January 20th, 2011
1:23 pm
EXACTLY, Willy.
So stop blaming the coaching staffs at other schools.
.
RollTideGamecocks
January 20th, 2011
1:24 pm
@ GTBOB…. your just upset that Georgia tech cant land one five star or more importantly keep one for over a night.
Willy
January 20th, 2011
1:28 pm
gcs,
I agree with you that most coaches are culpable for this practice. But it’s unfair to be cynical of EVERY progam.
Tide Rising
January 20th, 2011
1:28 pm
The sheer ignorance of the posters on this board about oversigning is nothing short of astounding. Let me help out a few of you ignoramuses with some logic and most of all some truth.
Point 1- Oversigning.com is not a credible website. Its one guy using wordpress and the site is this one guy’s opinion. This bozo obviously has an axe to grind.
Point 2- In the Wall Street Journal article only one of the 3 players was bitter about taking a medical redshirt- Kirschman. Kirschman was a leftover Shula recruit who played in all of 2 games in his career and in his senior year he would have sat on the bench his entire year. So what does it really matter anyway if he took a medical redshirt.
And is anyone on here really going to question the medical opinion of the world renowned orthopedic specialist Dr. James Andrews? On that point alone you should shut up.
Kirschman was also there 4 or 5 years- not run off in 2 years as some of you bozos insinuate. Bama paid for his graduate school education and he also gets the same perks as other players such as free player tickets.
Point 3- The other 2 players took the medical redshirts willingly- especially in the case of Hoke, and in the article neither of them had a negative comment about Bama. Again are you super geniuses going to question the medical advice of Dr. James Andrews?
Point 4- When its all said and done Bama fields a team with 85 scholly players year after year- just like everyone else. And if 1-2 players have to take a greyshirt and enroll a mere one semester later then they are fully apprised of that in the recruiting process and are well aware of it. If they don’t like it there are 119 other schools to sign with. No one is putting a gun to their head and making them sign with Bama.
Point 5- I challenge anyone on here to produce evidence of a single player who was run off for no other reason then to make room for another recruit. Otherwise STFU. The only players run off from the program were disciplinary problems such as Prince Hall- suspended 3 times before voluntarily transferring and was a starter as a redshirt freshman, Brandon Fanney- a 2 year starter who voluntarily transferred after being suspended for the season for breaking team rules, and Alonzo Lawrence- a former 5 star recruit who was pushed out the door for breaking team rules. Incidentally Lawrence transferred to Southern Miss and you guessed it- he was recently dismissed from the Southern Miss team for disciplinary reasons.
Bring it on boys- an open challenge and a $1,000 check to anyone who can show proof of Saban running off a player for other than disciplinary action simply to make room for a new recruit.
One last thing for the minions of morons out there. The last year or 2 Bama has had1-2 players who grayshirt typically because of a high school injury or because of lack of room until the next semester. 2 years ago AU and UT played with 72 and 68 scholly players because they did not sign adequate numbers. So that would be 30 open scholarships that went to waste for 30 young men that missed out on the opportunity of big time football on scholarship.
How do you morons morally justify that its somehow bad for 1-2 guys to delay enrollment for 1 semester but its perfectly fine for 30 schollys- mostly to be used by young black men from poor backgrounds- to go to waste all so that you can preach and be morally smug about the supposed harmful practice of oversigning. Didn’t think that one through did ya geniuses?
A Big Dog
January 20th, 2011
1:29 pm
McGarity….please find someone like satan….er I mean Saban.. for us!
Tosh.No
January 20th, 2011
1:30 pm
College is not supposed to be all about football. If you are good enough in high school to get a scholorship to a school, it is so you can go there and LEARN. Not just play football. To kick a kid off the team for not performing is shameful, and should be stopped. I understand if some kid wants to gray shirt, that is not a big deal to me, but to say that a kid is not as “good” as you thought he was and kick him off the team, and basically out of school for a newer athelete is disgusting and Nick Saban and the others that do this should be beaten with rebar. And all the Bama rednecks that are defending your golden boy are probably not even high school educated, so keep acting like your Ok with this type of thing because I will laugh my butt off if it happens to one of your kids one day. That is the one thing I respect out of Mark Richt, he will be loyal to the kids he gets to come to UGA. If you screw up bad like Mett or Dowtin, then your gone, but not because you were not as good as they had hoped.
David
January 20th, 2011
1:36 pm
Tosh — How in the heck is taking away a full free ride the same thing as kicking a kid off a team or kicking him out of class? They are NOT the same thing. If the university works to make sure a kid can stay in school (medical scholarship, transfer to another school with an available grant — whatever), then nothing harmful cited by you in your past has occurred. NOTHING.
Tosh.No
January 20th, 2011
1:38 pm
And Tide Rising, what an ignorant piece of garbage that post just was. Praying to whatever god is up there that this happens to one of your kids. Gonna be hilarious.
Chi Town
January 20th, 2011
1:39 pm
Blah! Blah! Blah!
Bama own the Mutts.
BG
January 20th, 2011
1:39 pm
Saban is a SNAKE in the grass! Saban will kick a player off the team in a NewYork second if the player is not performing like Saban thinks he should. Saban could care less about a young man getting a college education. Saban treats college football like it’s the NFL. If a player gets a career ending injury Saban will boot him off the team!
U Got Arrested
January 20th, 2011
1:40 pm
Easy solution: You can NOT sign a Letter of Intent unless you meet minimum NCAA qualification standards.
Chi Town
January 20th, 2011
1:41 pm
Tosh.No = Douche Bag
Tide Rising owns you.
Tosh.No
January 20th, 2011
1:41 pm
Lots of the Bama homers on here who love to defend garbage. Like I said, let it happen to your kid David and see if your feelings are the same. Jesus, some people become complete douches and ignore ethics in order to cheer for a team. Thats sickening. This is a game, getting a college education is forever. Anything to win, though. Right Bama fans?
Tosh.No
January 20th, 2011
1:43 pm
Oh no someone called me a douche. Grow up rednecks and get a life.
Tide Rising
January 20th, 2011
1:44 pm
“I understand if some kid wants to gray shirt, that is not a big deal to me, but to say that a kid is not as “good” as you thought he was and kick him off the team, and basically out of school for a newer athelete is disgusting and Nick Saban and the others that do this should be beaten with rebar”- Tosh.No
Tosh,
Please provide to me proof of one Bama player who was kicked off the team and lost his scholly to make room for a newer athlete at Bama. There’s a $1,000 check waiting for you if you can prove it.
Crybaby dawg fans....
January 20th, 2011
1:45 pm
“I would love for all to see background and academic checks on AJ Green, Greg Reid, Cam Newton, Nick Fairley and many many others. I can tell you that it’s not pretty.”
So where is your proof?
Tosh.No
January 20th, 2011
1:45 pm
And what are you his cheerleader Chi town. Got anything useful to say or you just here to troll it up? Didn’t think so. Anyway its clear from reading that piece right there above in Jeff’s article how ethical your coach is, and there is nothing you can say that can defend that. NOTHING.
Tide Rising
January 20th, 2011
1:46 pm
Tosh,
You sound like a rather intelligent fella calling other people rednecks. Still waiting on your proof sport.
Crybaby dawg fans....
January 20th, 2011
1:46 pm
“There is a reason the NCAA follows every move Nick Saban makes.”
Alabama is on probation until 2012. That could have something to do with it.
David
January 20th, 2011
1:46 pm
Tosh – I am NOT a Bama fan. I went to UNC. I just get tired of watching people think in lazy ways, then spill it out all over the Internet.
You keep equating the full free football ride with a college education. It’s not the same thing. I know plenty of kids who got an education without ever kicking a football or dunking a basketball. I know plenty of “underprivileged” kids who did the same thing. I tutor some on a volunteer basis. So stop preaching to me about educational equity. It’s important – and confusing it with nonsense issues like this one simply hurt the cause.
Crybaby dawg fans....
January 20th, 2011
1:47 pm
“The worst thing about oversigning is it has made me hate LSU, Auburn, Arkansas, Ole Miss, and Alabama more than I hate Florida and Tennessee, and me having a shred of respect for Florida just doesn’t feel good.”
So how do you feel about UGA having more players arrested than ANY other school in college football?
A Big Dog
January 20th, 2011
1:47 pm
Chi Town…are you a contradiction or what….a Red Neck Bamer from Chicago….is your name Musso or something
Crybaby dawg fans....
January 20th, 2011
1:47 pm
“I just get tired of watching people think in lazy ways, then spill it out all over the Internet.”
And you’re here, why?????????????
Ted Striker
January 20th, 2011
1:48 pm
Tide Rising — You had 5 points, here are my rebuttals.
1) You say Oversigning.com “isn’t credible” however the numbers are the numbers. Also, the guy who runs oversigning is very willing to discuss/debate. If numbers/facts and a willingness to discuss them aren’t credible then what are you looking for?
2) You say (quoting you) “Kirschman was a leftover Shula recruit who played in all of 2 games in his career and in his senior year he would have sat on the bench his entire year. So what does it really matter anyway if he took a medical redshirt.” Congratulations. Your hubris fits in with oversigning.
3) You like talking about Dr. James Andrews and how he supports your position however if we were to say, call him up and ask “Tide Rising says you think such and such” do you think Dr. James Andrews would say “oh yeah, whatever Tide Rising says, yeah definitely.”
4) Gun to their head? You actually used the “nobody is putting a gun to their head” argument? That’s like something someone says before they smack their pregnant girlfriend.
5) …….
I didn’t read your point 5. I got bored.
Tosh.No
January 20th, 2011
1:50 pm
Why don’t you take that $1000 dollars and go buy some class. Or maybe put down a payment on a house so you can get out of the trailor park you live in.
And as far as proof:
Saban: “I’m not going to tell you what?” (That exit is looking mighty welcoming now.) “It’s none of your business. Alright? And don’t give me this stuff about the fans need to know, because they don’t need to know.”
Thats enough proof for me. Anything else?
JSS
January 20th, 2011
1:50 pm
Tide Rising
January 20th, 2011
1:28 pm
“How do you morons morally justify that its somehow bad for 1-2 guys to delay enrollment for 1 semester but its perfectly fine for 30 schollys- mostly to be used by young black men from poor backgrounds- to go to waste all so that you can preach and be morally smug about the supposed harmful practice of oversigning. Didn’t think that one through did ya geniuses?”
Because there are “other programs” and schools in say the State of Alabama where those same student-athletes can go to college and be better suited for their future.
‘Tide Rising,’ I generally enjoy your posts; but, you’re putting pride in program over the general best interest of all parties… Alabama football can succeed on the merit of its history and quality of the coaching leadership. Then why don’t you guys let that play out?
David
January 20th, 2011
1:50 pm
Crybaby — Oh so clever. When you actually have an argument — which does require a cognitive investment – feel free to have at it.
Crybaby dawg fans....
January 20th, 2011
1:51 pm
Ted Striker
You just don’t understand Bama logic. To a Bama fan, Bama never loses, they just let other teams win. Whenever Bama doesn’t go undefeated, the entire college football season is a down year. When Auburn wins, the SEC really sucks.
See where I’m going?
Judge Smails
January 20th, 2011
1:51 pm
Why not kick them out after a year if they are underperforming. All of these kids have been competing all of their lives to be on the team anyway. They understand from high school on that if you do not perform you do not make the team. Might as well teach them the lesson early on….besides they had one free year of college that others did not have. If they then choose not to take advantage of it then…..”The world needs ditch diggers too!!”
Crybaby dawg fans....
January 20th, 2011
1:52 pm
“Oh so clever. ”
Since when did making an observation become “clever?”
“When you actually have an argument — which does require a cognitive investment – feel free to have at it.”
You must be on the rag.
A Big Dog
January 20th, 2011
1:53 pm
Crybaby dawg fans…. you and your foul mouth need to tone it down or leave
Bring Back Wally Butts
January 20th, 2011
1:53 pm
The airlines overbook too. Problem is sometimes everyone shows up for their flight and they have to pay people to “volunteer” to take the next available flight.
Are we suggesting that the NCAA isn’t a big business? Even if we were that naive, this year should have removed all doubt about the “amateur” status of college football. Dictionary.com:
noun
1. a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons.
Personally, I have no problem with oversigning given the financial and fan importance of SEC football. Let’s face it, do 18 year old kids do what they say they will (see signing day) and not change their minds when they are 19 or get into trouble along the way (see UGA arrest record)? If I were an SEC coach making $mm, I wouldn’t let an 18 year old pampered kid from the ‘hood hang me, my team or my fans out to dry.
It’s a business, folks.
Tide Rising
January 20th, 2011
1:54 pm
Tosh,
Perhaps you and BG need some help in reading comprehension. In the case of the one single Bama player in the WSJ article who was bitter about being placed on medical scholarship his senior year he was at Bama for 5 years and Bama paid for his masters degree education.
“Saban could care less about a young man getting a college education.”-BG
Uh, BG Bama paid for Kirschman’s masters and his undergrad degree. What again is your point?
“If a player gets a career ending injury Saban will boot him off the team!”- BG
bg,
Help me out here sport. I’m still trying to understand your logic- or lack thereof. So Saban is expected to keep a player on the roster even though he has a career ending injury in which case he can’t really play? Something wrong with putting him on medical redshirt and paying for him to finish his education AND get his master’s degree. Get back to me on that one genius.
David
January 20th, 2011
1:54 pm
Crybaby — “On the rag?” Really? Insults are boring enough, but even cyberspace costs something. Avoid the cliches.
Chi Town
January 20th, 2011
1:56 pm
Saban owns the state of GA.
Has a house in Lake Burton and Bryant Denny Stadium East is located over in that dump they call Athens. Sanford and Son Stadium is our 2nd home.
Crybaby dawg fans....
January 20th, 2011
1:57 pm
“you and your foul mouth need to tone it down or leave”
1: What did I say that was foul?
2: How are you going to make me leave?
Crybaby dawg fans....
January 20th, 2011
1:57 pm
“Insults are boring enough, but even cyberspace costs something. Avoid the cliches.”
Grow a pair.
Tosh.No
January 20th, 2011
1:58 pm
Tosh – I am NOT a Bama fan. I went to UNC. I just get tired of watching people think in lazy ways, then spill it out all over the Internet.
You keep equating the full free football ride with a college education. It’s not the same thing. I know plenty of kids who got an education without ever kicking a football or dunking a basketball. I know plenty of “underprivileged” kids who did the same thing. I tutor some on a volunteer basis. So stop preaching to me about educational equity. It’s important – and confusing it with nonsense issues like this one simply hurt the cause.
Was there a point somehwere in there? Yes, other people can go to college without playing football. No one said anything about they could not. I am saying that if a kid is picked by a coach to play for a team, and he can and is still willing to play for that team for the 4 years he has of eligibilty, then he should not have to worry about underperforming on that team and losing his scholly. That is un-ethical, and wrong in my opinion. Planty of teams have guys that don’t get to play a lot because someone else is better, but those teams don’t kick them off to find a better guy to play. College football is a game. Not a business.
Sopwith Camel
January 20th, 2011
1:58 pm
In a “Pollyanna” world, there would be no recruiting and universities would field sports teams from the universe of students are enrolled. There would be no making allowances for lower academic admission standards for athletes……everyone has the same standards. This would eliminate what amounts to putting together “professional” teams of athletes to represent the university when the university does not care one iota whether the kids go to classes there or not.
But that ‘ain’t’ going to happen and we’re stuck with sleasy recruiting tactics and dishonest ways of getting kids admitted who would never otherwise quality. For example, can you imagine for one minute the response that the football players at Ga. Tech or UGA would receive if they did not play football and they sent in their admission applications along with every other high school kid? I doubt seriously if any would be accepted. But because they play sports……OK, sure, let them in and we’ll bask in their on-the-field accomplishments and they will make us feel good about ourselves…….we just don’t mind that they may be dumber than dirt and don’t have any reason being in college. Just like the Roman gladiator days!! Go round them up, let them kill each other in the arena, and we’ll enjoy the view!!
wxwax
January 20th, 2011
2:00 pm
I just don’t understand what the NCAA stands for anymore.
Oversigning is a practice which clearly defeats the intent of squad limits.
And it hurts competitiveness in college football. The advent of squad limits is what led to the end of dominion by the old time powers and made upsets the order of the day in college football.
The fact that the NCAA, once again, does nothing in the face of obvious wrongdoing calls into question the reasons for its existence.
PHIL
January 20th, 2011
2:00 pm
RtideR the best indication of future behavior is past behavior. UGA has never done this to a player why do you think they would now? Especially one who can run 4,42? Many other schools would have offered this kid after his grades were good enough. He just took an offical trip to your school for goodness sake. So don’t ever bet he will be run off at UGA.
The other thing to be gleaned from your post as far as basing future behavior on past behavior is that you will continue to say moronic things in public.
A Big Dog
January 20th, 2011
2:00 pm
Crybaby dawg fans…. I will gladley report the incident to the owner of the blog…the AJC…they’ll make you leave